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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Topic started by: watcher on Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 14:39:19

Title: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 14:39:19
End-time events: where do they occur?

Throughout history Bible scholars have taught that Israel and the Jews are the focus of end-time events,  but is that really the case?

Did Paul in 11Thes.2 say that the man of lawlessness would sit in Israel or in a rebuilt temple in Israel, proclaiming himself as God?

And, did Jesus in Matt.24:15 say that the abomination of desolation would occur in Israel or in a rebuilt temple in Israel?

The simple fact is, No, neither Jesus nor Paul mentioned the nation of Israel as being the place where the falling away would occur and where the man of lawlessness would be exalted and revealed....nor the place where the abomination that makes desolate would occur.

In order to pinpoint where that temple of God is that Paul spoke of, and that holy place of which Jesus spoke, we must go to the sourse of end-time scriptures which is the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation.
Surprisingly neither Daniel nor John the Revelator mentions Israel in regards to the man of lawlessness that's worshipped in the last days.  In addition there is not one mention of the word Jews in either of those books.
And yet Bible scholars have always maintained that it's all about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

Fact is, God went to great lengths to show unto Daniel and to John that nation wherein would occur the falling away and the exaltation of the man of lawlessness in the last days.  That nation was and is AMERICA.
But, since America had not yet been establiched, God used symbols and allegories and metaphors to describe it.

You'll find descriptions of Europe, and the European Americans which came out of that kingdom in Dan.7:7,8...and in Dan.7:23,24...and in Dan.8:9,10.
In those passages you'll find also the descriptions of the man of lawlessness. 

Notice in 7:7,8
7  "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast (Europe)....and it had ten horns" (it had a people).

8  "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn (America)....In this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things (man of lawlessness)."

And in verses 23,24
23  "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth (the European kingdom)...

24  "And the ten horns (the people) out of this kingdom are ten kings (the European Americans) that shall arise: and another (another ten horns; another people, ie, the man of lawlessness) shall rise after them....

And in Dan.8
9  "And out of one of them (out of Europe) came forth a little horn (America), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

10  "And it waxed great even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (the Christian host people) to the ground, and stamped upon them."

11  "Yea, he (the little horn ie, America) magnified himself even to the prince of the host (to the man of lawlessness), and by him (by the little horn) the daily sacrifice (the daily school prayer) was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."

This same little horn that waxed exceeding great which God showed to Daniel, is the same Babylon the great  which God showed to John the Revelator.
Both are descriptions of AMERICA.

Thus when we read 11Thes.2 we may be confident that Paul is saying that, Christ cannot return to earth until the rise and fall of the European Americans, and until the man of lawlessness exalt themselves above them.













Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: larry2 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 15:16:21

Dear watcher, does your thinking coincide with Armageddon or "the hill or city of Megiddo?" Is that somewhere in New York?
 
Revelation 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 
May I ask what church teaches this?

In Jesus' name - larry2

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 05:19:48
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quote author=larry2 link=topic=37442.msg678952#msg678952 date=1250540181]

Dear watcher, does your thinking coincide with Armageddon or "the hill or city of Megiddo?" Is that somewhere in New York?

I have no idea where Megiddo will be. 
Supposedly the battle of Armageddon will occur when Christ returns to earth.  I spoke of events which occur before Christ's return.
 
 
Quote
May I ask what church teaches this?

I don't know if any church teaches what I teach.  Most if not all Pentacostal/Evangelical churches  teach "the Antichrist" fable.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: OldDad on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 07:28:24
Larry2 - it sounds like Armstrongism.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:16:58
Quote
Larry2 - it sounds like Armstrongism.

Are you saying that my teaching sounds like that which Armstrong taught?

But I thought Armstrong taught basically the same about the end-times as do all other preachers!
Did he not teach, as does every other preacher, about a false messiah called "the Antichrist", and how that he would sit in a rebuilt temple in Israel, claiming to be God?

Well, I don't teach that.  Fact is, I believe that the Antichrist teaching is a fable which men have invented.  There are no scriptures which support that teaching.

As I stated in my opening post:  AMERICA is the subject of end-time scriptures, NOT Israel.
Israel is mentioned only once in Daniel, and that is in chapter 9, verses 24,25 in which the prophet fortold of Israel's rebirth in 1948. 
He explained that Israel's rebirth would begin the 70 year countdown to Christ's return. 

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:41:57
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Quote
quote author=larry2 link=topic=37442.msg678952#msg678952 date=1250540181]

I spoke of events which occur before Christ's return.
 
I don't know if any church teaches what I teach.  Most if not all Pentacostal/Evangelical churches  teach "the Antichrist" fable.



I'm have no idea of your eschatology, though it seems you believe that Matthew Chapter 24 is in full view at this present time, and seemingly Daniel Chapters seven and eight are not waiting for the appearance of Israel sacrificing again. You somehow believe a nation instead of a leader of nations will be the antichrist, or little horn of Daniel Chapter Seven.

I'm at the point of going with OldDad on this despite what "Armstrongism" is. You make light of churches that believe the reality of the antichrist as being a fable, and I would suppose that would include the false prophet of Daniel Chapter Eight. Maybe you have inside information?

This should be very interesting. I once heard similar things from a white supremacist group, though they were anti-Israel; not anti-America. I hope this doesn't come to that as I have seen special interests manipulate scripture to fit their warped prejudices. Let us hear what you have.  ::smile::

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: OldDad on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:48:57
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:25:52
Quote
Quote from: larry2 
I'm have no idea of your eschatology, though it seems you believe that Matthew Chapter 24 is in full view at this present time[/quote

Except for the time of trouble or tribulation that's soon to come upon America, ALL THINGS are in full view.  In other words ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

Quote
and seemingly Daniel Chapters seven and eight are not waiting for the appearance of Israel sacrificing again.
 

The "daily sacrifice and oblation" of which Daniel spoke, has nothing at all to do with animal sacrifices.  It has to do with America, and the taking away of the daily school prayer in 1963.

Quote
You somehow believe a nation instead of a leader of nations will be the antichrist, or little horn of Daniel Chapter Seven.

Yes, I interpret the little horn that waxed exceeding great as being AMERICA.  As for the antichrist, there's no such person mentioned in the prophetic scriptures of Daniel or Revelation or 11Thes.2 or any other of the prophetic scriptures.
The "son of perdition" whom you mistakingly refer to as "the antichrist" is not one, but many.  In fact Judas Iscarot was one of them.


Quote
I'm at the point of going with OldDad on this despite what "Armstrongism" is. You make light of churches that believe the reality of the antichrist as being a fable, and I would suppose that would include the false prophet of Daniel Chapter Eight. Maybe you have inside information?


Neither Daniel nor John the Revelator ever spoke of the son of perdition as being one man called "the antichrist".
Daniel 7:24 describes the son of perdition as being that of another ten horns or another people that would rise after the ten kings ie, after the European Americans.
In Revelation 17 we see them as the ten horns that are upon the beast Babylon (upon America).


Quote
This should be very interesting. I once heard similar things from a white supremacist group, though they were anti-Israel; not anti-America. I hope this doesn't come to that as I have seen special interests manipulate scripture to fit their warped prejudices. Let us hear what you have.  ::smile::

Oh yes, I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  And so all they have to throw back at me are insults and accusations.
I hope that's not going to be the case with you and the others here.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:28:34
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:34:44
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:23:19

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:25:38
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.


Quote

Oh but they were written to me...and to you...and to everyone else that's living today!

In fact the angel of the Lord told Daniel in chapter 12 to close and seal up the book he had written until the time of the end, meaning that, Daniel's prophecies could not be understood until the time of the end.

We today are living at the time of the end.  
By looking back at America's history, especially over the past 50-60 years of America's history, we can correctly apply most of Daniel's prophecies to events which have occured in America.

Looking at an event which has ALREADY occured, and applying that event to a prophetic scripture, is how we're supposed to interpret those scriptures.  

Yet there are those, such as John Darby and preachers of the Reformation era who speculated, and came up with their own private interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  They incidently are the very ones who invented "the Antichrist" fable.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:38:00
Quote

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

To which scriptures are you referring?

Quote
What of the "Man Child?"

Christ

Quote
Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:43:39
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.


Quote

Oh but they were written to me...and to you...and to everyone else that's living today!

In fact the angel of the Lord told Daniel in chapter 12 to close and seal up the book he had written until the time of the end, meaning that, Daniel's prophecies could not be understood until the time of the end.

We today are living at the time of the end.  
By looking back at America's history, especially over the past 50-60 years of America's history, we can correctly apply most of Daniel's prophecies to events which have occured in America.

Looking at an event which has ALREADY occured, and applying that event to a prophetic scripture, is how we're supposed to interpret those scriptures.  

Yet there are those, such as John Darby and preachers of the Reformation era who speculated, and came up with their own private interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  They incidently are the very ones who invented "the Antichrist" fable.


The end of time was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in AD 70..... it was the end of the Jews favored status with God.

And the bible was written to 1st century Jews and must be understood within that context.

Daniels prophesies were fulfilled already and it is a huge mistake to think they were not... the bible warns us against doing what you are doing.

Not properly scoping terms used in the bible is a easy and uneducated mistake that most would be scholars make all the time.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:52:09
The endtime Babylon harlot of Revelation is definitely NOT America. It is a specific 'city' though:

Rev 17:18
18   And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

But it ain't Rome, nor New York, nor London, nor Mecca, nor Cairo, nor Bagdad...


Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(KJV)

Who remembers their Sunday School lessons? Where was our Lord Jesus crucified? At JERUSALEM! That is the "great city" our Lord Jesus is talking about there in those last chapters of Revelation. Because He used the labels of "Sodom" and "Egypt" to SPIRITUALLY describe its condition for the end, it means Jerusalem in a fallen condition away from Him.

Don't go away, for there's more to this than just involving the city of Jerusalem at the end of this world.

Did you notice there in Rev.11:9 that the nations will actually SEE the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street there? What technology has made that possilbe only in these last days? It's called satellite technology. All NATIONS will see that, which has to mean Christ's enemies are going to show camera footage of it. Those two witnesses which will be sent by God during the tribulation will be given the ability of miracles, much in the same commission as Elijah the prophet during the days of Jezebel and Ahab. And by that miracle working it will torment the deceived nations. That's why once the nations see their two dead bodies laying the street, they'll rejoice and give each other gifts and have a party. They will react differently when they see the bodies of those two saints resurrected right before their eyes later though on the third woe and 7th trumpet.


Per Rev.13:1-2 Christ told us of a beast coming up out of the 'sea', and in Rev.17:15 He defined what that "sea" represents with the idea of "waters". It means peoples, nations, tongues, and multitudes. In Rev.13:2 Christ COMPARED that first beast system to the beast world kingdoms of Daniel 7. That means the Rev.13:1 beast is a world kingdom, a system setup over ALL nations and peoples upon the earth.

It will be over ALL nations in the very end, not only Jerusalem. But Jerusalem will be the epicenter of it all, its headquarters, for Jerusalem is specifically where the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" shall make war against God's two witnesses, killing them, with their dead bodies left laying in the street (actually a plaza).

THERE ARE TWO BEASTS IN REVELATION 13. In Rev.13:11 forward, our Lord Jesus mentioned a second beast, which is a RELIGIOUS beast, associated with the "dragon" (Satan), and that he will cause the whole world to bow down in false worship (except those in Christ that will refuse). That "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is that "another beast" of the Rev.13:11 forward part of the chapter. It is an entity, the final Antichrist. THAT shows us WHERE to look for his appearance in the last days, in Jerusalem.

In order for ALL NATIONS to be joined into that first beast world kingdom system, it requires the leaders of ALL NATIONS to sign on board! So who is so blind today that they cannot see that nation joining in today's time? Our Heavenly Father has been very good to His which listen to Him in His Word and the many signs He's given in these last days, for right out of the mouths of those globalist leaders have come phrases like "New World Order" and "one world government"!

The fact that that joining of nations working is being planned and instrumented in other areas of the earth is so as to not point to Jerusalem, which IS their planned epicenter for their future one world government system. They have even labeled Jerusalem as "The International City of Peace" per their plans for it. I won't have to remind anyone of this when it comes to its full, for we all shall see it (if we don't first pass beforehand).

Moreover, if you don't understand what Satan's original rebellion was, let me remind you per Scripture. He rebelled against GOD by wanting to be GOD, and sit in the "sides of the north" (Isa.14; Ezek.28). That means upon GOD's Throne. And just WHERE did GOD say He has chosen to dwell forever? In JERUSALEM. This is also WHY Jerusalem will always be the CENTER of where the battle will take place. So the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 was not talking about Satan sitting in over some Church in New York city nor anywhere else but Jerusalem (2 Thess.2:3-4). Satan's rebellion against GOD was the very FIRST sin, and it will be the very LAST sin that ends this world. That's the idea the Apostle Paul is pulling together there in 2 Thessalonians 2. That's the "strong delusion" he was talking about for the very end of this world. And it will be upon many, because they'd rather listen to wizards and false prophets that God has allowed to creep in among His people, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PRUNING.


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 14:06:12

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 -   Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

Watcher - To which scriptures are you referring?

larry2 -   The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

Quote
larry2 - What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that?

Quote
Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 -   Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Watcher - No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

larry 2 - I was only asking since you say you were accused of being a white supremacist. I meant no insult unless you were, and our debate would have ended here.

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 05:13:05
Quote
larry2 -   The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
Quote
larry2 -   Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Watcher - No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

larry 2 - I was only asking since you say you were accused of being a white supremacist. I meant no insult unless you were, and our debate would have ended here.

While I'm NOT a racist and don't belong to any racist group, it's important to understand that end-time scriptures ARE in fact about race.
It's about the European Americans (the ten kings), and their mixing and mingling with that other people; (other ten horns)  mentioned in Dan.7:24, and in Rev.17:12,16.
You'll have to decide for yourselves whom that other ten horns are.

Because it involves race, this modern-day politically correct society will not believe the truth of end-time scriptures.
"They will not receive the love of the truth" as Paul stated in 11Thes.2.  In other words, "They'll hate the truth."



Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 05:42:44

Quote
The end of time was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in AD 70..... it was the end of the Jews favored status with God.

Where do you find in scriptures that "Jews" had favored status with God?, or that, "Judah" had favored status, or "the house of Judah" had favored status?

Quote
And the bible was written to 1st century Jews and must be understood within that context.

Are you sure it wasn't written to "the whole house of Israel"?

Quote
Daniels prophesies were fulfilled already and it is a huge mistake to think they were not... the bible warns us against doing what you are doing.

WOW!, Who's your mentor? 
Most would agree that Daniel's prophecies, as does Revelation, involves the time period or last generation preceeding the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Johnb on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:08:21
Trying to tell God how He would fulfill His prophecies is what caused the Jews to reject Christ.  I think I will just let God work it out. ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: larry2 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:18:10

Watcher -   ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

Watcher - If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
larry2 - If you do not know who these different groups are that prophesy tells us of, how do you state that all prophesy is past?

larry2 -   What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher -   Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that? I repeated this since you didn't answer it.

I might also add: who is the woman that is hidden for three and one-half years during the tribulation in Revelation 12:6?

In Jesus' name - larry2

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:20:19
The Israel of the new covenant, and biblical prophecy in relation to the same, is the Church.

The Church is now the Israel of God.  Thus has she been given the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.



Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Again it is in a far superior way that the Church is betrothed to God in Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die.  

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God.  PRAISE GOD’S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.

Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.  Now all those who reject the same are none of His, and have no part of the kingdom of God or the gospel of the same, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:21:27
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."



Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


Quote
It will be over ALL nations in the very end, not only Jerusalem. But Jerusalem will be the epicenter of it all, its headquarters, for Jerusalem is specifically where the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" shall make war against God's two witnesses, killing them, with their dead bodies left laying in the street (actually a plaza).


The verse says that there dead bodies will lie in the streets of the "great city", which is the description of Babylon the great ie, AMERICA in Rev.17:18.



Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:23:35
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."

Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


My KJV Bible clearly defines JERUSALEM as Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, BECAUSE, the Rev.11:8 verse is specifically talking about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified!

That means Christ's LITERAL crucifixion in Jerusalem per history. The word "spiritual" does not occur in that phrase, "where also our Lord was crucified".

For what you say to be true, our Lord Jesus would have to have been LITERALLY crucified in the Americas! That's a silly knucklehead idea, a lot different than being rude. I can't imagine what kind of bible you might be using, evidently not one at all.

JERUSALEM is where the final battle of this world age will take place. It is also where the strongest work of deceptive idol worship is going to occur in the near future. Jerusalem has been taken by God's enemies many times in history when false worship was setup there as a result (something like 27 times per history).

So tell me, where are you really from, and why do you hate America? Are you a Communist, or one of radical Islam, etc.?


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:45:35

by watcher,
Quote
I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Sorry, but wrong. Babylon in Revelation IS 1st century Jerusalem. It's not even debatable anymore. Preterist scholars have proven with Scripture & history that all things that were written, were fulfilled in the 1st century AD.
You are invited to begin studying the proper pov. I have for yrs. And sorry, but it puts futuristic pov to shame.
Luke 21:20-22 should open your eyes at least to fulfilled prophecy.

Eschatology must not be your forte'. Until the current church adapts the proper "orthodoxy" regarding only inspired Scripture (& not uninspired church fathers who think they made orthodoxy when it comes to eschatology) We will denounce their agenda & fiction.
Your mentor must be the apologetic uninspired church fathers, who were scoffed at (& will continue to be scoffed at) bc they couldn't admit eschatological fulfillment. Their "agenda" wouldn't allow them. But at the same time, they made & make Jesus & the apostles to appear as liars in regard to Jesus' & the disciples prophecies.

My pleasure to try to answer any questions you have, according to the preterist paradigm.

Amo, i agree. The N.T. church became the Israel of God. The Hebrew Christian church from the 1st century became one in Christ. And God officially called the Jewish people by another name= Christians.(Isa.65).
There are Messianic Jews though, & that's understood as the same as Christian name. James was more like a Messianic Jew. But that's fine. Those Jews keep their Jewish culture, yet believe in the Messiah, which was & is- Jesus.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:52:58
Good witness Amo!

When Christ came He ended the Old Covenant. And to prove it, the sacrifices in a Jerusalem temple has never been instituted again since the first century after Christ's death on the cross.

For those who haven't read the works of the 100 A.D. Jewish historian Josephus, even a son of David upon a throne in Jerusalem ended with Zedekiah in Jeremiah the prophet's day, and never to be setup there again. Most of the later kings in Jerusalem were of the nations, the Idumeans (from Esau), like the Herods.

For those who understand God's Promises to His people, the majority of those Promises were removed from that area after Christ came to die on the cross and the Jews refused the Kingdom then. In Matthew 21 our Lord Jesus said His 'vineyard' would be given to other servants, to another "nation", and they would bear forth fruit. Where should one then look for His vineyard after He was rejected in Jerusalem?

God's Promises have been found among the western Christian nations after Christ's death on the cross. That's also where God scattered many Israelites, maybe even the majority of Israelites from all twelve tribes.

It is those believing Israelites and believing Gentiles on The Savior Jesus Christ, called Christians, that have since made up God's Church, the congregation of His People by the New Covenant.

Yet God did promise His servant David that He would always leave one tribe of Israel in Jerusalem for his sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That remnant of Israel is a small remnant of the Jews ("house of Judah") that returned from the Babylon captivity. They are still there in Jerusalem today fulfilling that Promise by God.

Per Ezekiel 37, 47-48, a remnant of all twelve tribes of Israel will return to Jerusalem to their old inheritences of the land. And the symbolic tent will be enlarged to include the believing Gentiles with them (Isa.54). This is how Christ is to inherit the Gentiles per the Book of Isaiah. Today's nation state of Israel involves a very small portion of land compared to how many of Israel were originally spread out there in David's day. That's a major sign showing God has not gathered both houses back together to the Holy Land yet.

That time of gathering of the two sticks in Ezek.37 is what the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus is about. Both Israel and Gentiles as Christ's Body will be gathered there together at Christ's second coming in the near future. That's what The Bible teaches. That's why the Apostle Paul taught that Gentiles who believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2). A commonwealth can include peoples from anywhere on the earth.


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 09:19:27
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."

Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


My KJV Bible clearly defines JERUSALEM as Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, BECAUSE, the Rev.11:8 verse is specifically talking about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified!

That means Christ's LITERAL crucifixion in Jerusalem per history. The word "spiritual" does not occur in that phrase, "where also our Lord was crucified".

For what you say to be true, our Lord Jesus would have to have been LITERALLY crucified in the Americas! That's a silly knucklehead idea, a lot different than being rude. I can't imagine what kind of bible you might be using, evidently not one at all.

JERUSALEM is where the final battle of this world age will take place. It is also where the strongest work of deceptive idol worship is going to occur in the near future. Jerusalem has been taken by God's enemies many times in history when false worship was setup there as a result (something like 27 times per history).

So tell me, where are you really from, and why do you hate America? Are you a Communist, or one of radical Islam, etc.?





Nope, I'm not a Communist, not one of radical Islam, not a skinhead, and not a member of the KKK.

I'm a European American....a 63 year-old grandmother who's been studying the prophetic scriptures for some 40 years.

I don't hate America.  I must however tell the truth about our nation based on what the scriptures say about it.

Those scriptures (Daniel and Revelation) describe that nation wherein Paul said in 11Thes.2, the falling away would occur and the man of lawlessness exalted and revealed.

John described that nation or "great city"  as Babylon the great.

Daniel described it as a little horn that waxed exceeding great.

Jesus described it as the holy place or "Christian place" in Matt.24:15.

And in 11Thes.2 Paul described it as the temple of God or nation wherein are Christian Churches and Christian people.

It is "the great City" Babylon (America) wherein the two witnesses will be murdered by the man of lawlessness.

Notice what the scripture says,

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of "the great city" (Babylon/America), which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was (spiritually) crucified."

If you don't believe that America has spiritually crucified Christ over the last half of this century, then you surely don't know America's history.







Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 10:29:37
by dp,
Quote
Yet God did promise His servant David that He would always leave one tribe of Israel in Jerusalem for his sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That remnant of Israel is a small remnant of the Jews ("house of Judah") that returned from the Babylon captivity. They are still there in Jerusalem today fulfilling that Promise by God.

Per Ezekiel 37, 47-48, a remnant of all twelve tribes of Israel will return to Jerusalem to their old inheritences of the land. And the symbolic tent will be enlarged to include the believing Gentiles with them (Isa.54). This is how Christ is to inherit the Gentiles per the Book of Isaiah. Today's nation state of Israel involves a very small portion of land compared to how many of Israel were originally spread out there in David's day. That's a major sign showing God has not gathered both houses back together to the Holy Land yet.

That time of gathering of the two sticks in Ezek.37 is what the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus is about. Both Israel and Gentiles as Christ's Body will be gathered there together at Christ's second coming in the near future. That's what The Bible teaches. That's why the Apostle Paul taught that Gentiles who believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2). A commonwealth can include peoples from anywhere on the earth.

This is where you go wrong. This is what leads to Replacement theology instead of Covenant theology. As soon as you drag this into the future. All the genealogies of the Jewish people ended with Christ.
The church did not replace Israel in God's program. In Christ, the Old Covenant promises TO Israel were fulfilled. The remnant of Israel can be seen in the apostles, especially. The oracles, the promises, the Scriptures were all given to Israel. Gentiles followed. The 1st century church became Jew & Gentile in Christ.
Christ is the King on David's throne. And i assure you that is in the spiritual New Jerusalem today. Earthly Jerusalem "was raised up"  Mt. Zion is not in physical, national Israel- hasn't been since God left the temple in AD70.
Salvation is from the Jews- & this began & ended with Christ.
Judah & Ephraim were already made "one" in God's program. James even writes to the 12 tribes that didn't return to Jerusalem post-exile. The remnant, as Paul said "there is a remnant at the present time" ( Romans 11:5, still in Old Covenant but being Mediated & soon to pass away) & "the age or world to come- to come 'SOON' or future to Paul's writing of Romans (approx.56-58AD) And Paul warned about futile & endless discussions about genealogies during & after he was gone to Timothy.
And Jacob's last words to his sons, what would befall in Israel's last days (Gen49:10-11):
 10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
      Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
      Until Shiloh comes;
      And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

 11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
      And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
      He washed his garments in wine,
      And his clothes in the blood of grapes.

And of course, Judah returned to Israel after the exile. And it's for certain that "Shiloh" was another name for the Messiah.
Jesus was Israel's "Sun of Righteousness, with healing in His wings" (Malachi 4) And on those who didn't believe- God cursed- destroyed them, their city & their temple in AD70- by "little horn" or Vespasian namely, & his son Titus.
Right then & there Daniel 7 is fulfilled. The saints inherited the kingdom of God. Christ was the end of the Law- but He fulfilled the promises to the faithful OT saints & righteous remnant in the same 40 yrs. the faithful of Israel brought in the Gentiles to be part of the true vine, by adoption. To the Jew 1st, then also to the Greek or Gentile.

So, this has all taken place already.

When Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father, He became King went He went to heaven & ruled over the 12 tribes (Mt.19:28; Luke 22:30) for 40 yrs.- just like David did in the OT.

The apostles were "on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel" during the 40 yrs of missionary service.

Yes, the thousand yrs. begins from history or a retrospective sense from John in Rev20. (his historical perspective is also seen in Rev.12)

From David & his mighty men to Christ & His apostles is represented figuratively by "a thousand yrs." 

It was during the great tribulation of the Jewish people- that Christ took His great power & put all the churches enemies (which were those still enforcing Judaism- the thorn in the flesh) He put them under His feet. Christianity no longer had to compete with Judaism. The mystery was complete in the 1st century.

Shiloh definitely came to Israel, then to the Gentiles.

The fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was the visible demonstration that God kept His promises, & there was no longer any need for the old "City of God."

by watcher,
Quote
Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.
You can call your country anything you like. The better attitude is to pray for this country, our economy, for our military & those on our side, pray for our leaders, even pray for America's Christians & spiritual state of its lost citizens.

But "America" is not in the Bible. When you can prove it there in Scripture, you will have credibility when it comes to understanding prophecy. Until then, my friend, i'm afraid it's just your imagination - which to me, has nothing fruitful to give-  I do not share in your doomsday predictions.

Abraham's SEED was to REMAIN. It was the "end of all things" (i.e. the Law & Old Covenant) Not the end of the world! 

It was good to be "left behind" like Noah & fam.  So were the Hebrew Christians would were temporally "saved" by quitting the city & not being killed in the great tribulation.

And to those that were waiting for Him, He appeared a second time, not for sin (He did that on 1st advent) but for their SALVATION! (Heb.9:28).

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 13:09:20


Quote
But "America" is not in the Bible. When you can prove it there in Scripture, you will have credibility when it comes to understanding prophecy. Until then, my friend, i'm afraid it's just your imagination - which to me, has nothing fruitful to give-  I do not share in your doomsday predictions.

Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 16:34:10

by watcher,
Quote
Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
Yes.
Quote
You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?
No.
God has (past tense) judged Israel.

America's not in the Bible.

But i believe God judges now in the general sense.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: gospel on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 16:49:27
Quote
While I'm NOT a racist and don't belong to any racist group, it's important to understand that end-time scriptures ARE in fact about race.
It's about the European Americans (the ten kings), and their mixing and mingling with that other people; (other ten horns)  mentioned in Dan.7:24, and in Rev.17:12,16.
You'll have to decide for yourselves whom that other ten horns are.

Because it involves race, this modern-day politically correct society will not believe the truth of end-time scriptures.
"They will not receive the love of the truth" as Paul stated in 11Thes.2.  In other words, "They'll hate the truth."


Sounds like somebody has been reading the Anglo Saxon Chronicles or something like it
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 21:14:35
Here is some replacement theology.

Matt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.




Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 21:21:12
Who are Christians?  Are the Jews still God’s people?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Only those Jews who,
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 03:24:18
Quote

Watcher -   ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

I've already stated that I don't know who the four beasts are "in their heavenly ministry".   Perhaps you can tell me?
It's hard enough to interpret whom the earthly beasts represent in prophecy, let alone the beasts which John saw around the trone of God in the heavenlies.

Quote
Watcher - If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
larry2 - If you do not know who these different groups are that prophesy tells us of, how do you state that all prophesy is past?

Once again, If you know whom the 4 heavenly beasts represent, then pray tell, who are they?

Quote
larry2 -   What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher -   Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that? I repeated this since you didn't answer it.


I interpret "the woman" in Rev.12 as being "the house of Israel" from which Christ was born.  I came to that conclusion by studying the BIBLE, and whom it is that represents "the woman" in the BIBLE.

Quote
I might also add: who is the woman that is hidden for three and one-half years during the tribulation in Revelation 12:6?

Again, "the woman" represents the tribes of Israel.


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 03:43:36

by watcher,
Quote
Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
Yes.
Quote
You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?
No.
God has (past tense) judged Israel.

America's not in the Bible.

But i believe God judges now in the general sense.



No offence but, me thinks you're delusional.

If one believes that Israel is Babylon the great as it's described in Rev.17 and 18, then one has to believe that sometime in the future Israel will experience the one hour judgment spoken of in verse 10 of Rev.18.

Babylon's judgement is a future event which happens just before the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Read about it in Rev.19:2
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 07:46:56
by watcher,
Quote
No offence but, me thinks you're delusional.
Straight from the mouth of a spoon-fed Christian. I'm not interested in what you think. I'm interested in what you know. See, i've upped the ante in your game.

Quote
If one believes that Israel is Babylon the great as it's described in Rev.17 and 18, then one has to believe that sometime in the future Israel will experience the one hour judgment spoken of in verse 10 of Rev.18.

Babylon's judgement is a future event which happens just before the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Read about it in Rev.19:2

Not in the future. The great tribulation on the Jewish people during the Roman/Jewish war took place in AD67-70.
The "one hour" phrase is not hyperliteral.  The wording was used before. Jesus said to Philadelphia church they were to be kept from "the hour of trial," "No one knew the day or hour," in John's gospel, he said "this is the last hour."  "No man knows when his hour will come." (Ecc.9:12)
It's a somewhat elastic term. It is the same as "the day of the Lord."  It was a time of judgment on the guilty nation as Jesus forewarned would come upon that generation- meaning His contemporaries. The saints were to look for the "signs" of the time of the end.
Luke 19:42-44,
42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:05:55

Nope, I'm not a Communist, not one of radical Islam, not a skinhead, and not a member of the KKK.

That's good, neither am I. Yet if you'll read the retired FBI agent Cleon Skousen's work, The Naked Communist he wrote in 1958, outlining world Communist strategy for takeover of the west, you'll discover a plan to cause the degradation of America. He listed 45 points in that Soviet long-range plan, and one of them even involved the promotion of meaningless art. So it should be no surprise that there has been underground movements by America's enemies to cause today's political correctness philosophy which is nothng more than tenets of Communist socialism, ideas being used to destroy the Christian foundations of America. The Christian nations of today's Europe have also been under that same attack. But if one went to every small town in today's United States, they'd find God-fearing Christians are still in the majority in America. The overthrow is being instituted by a small group of traitors and subversives that deceive. God is allowing them that power for a reason in the last days. When He comes, the whole world will know our enemies will have been defeated by Him only, and not by us. That's why we must be weakened in prep for that, so that even the enemy will know that He is GOD (Ezek.38-39).

Quote
I'm a European American....a 63 year-old grandmother who's been studying the prophetic scriptures for some 40 years.

I'm a European-American also, and I love my country, and even volunteered during the Vietnam War to serve my country when others of my era were busy sucking (or dope smoking) in the lies of the enemey with the hippie peace-love-dove movement which was but a mask for socialist doctrines by the enemy. Lot of those hippies burned the American flag, spit on our troops returning back from Vietnam, disrespected their own parents and families, and some of them even waved the enemy North Vietnamese flag in their false'peace' rallies that the enemy's infiltraitors instituted. Some of the tax-exempt foundations were even discovered supporting anti-American movements to futher propaganda from America's enemies (see Reese Committee).

But it seems like in all your years of Bible study you've somehow missed God's prophecies about how Christ's enemies would be given power over His people in the last days. So just because someone has studied The Bible for a long time, it doesn't mean they got it all right.

Quote
I don't hate America.  I must however tell the truth about our nation based on what the scriptures say about it.

And I say you have listened to other sources outside The Bible to modify what The Bible really says on these things. The idea that America is the endtime Babylon is a foreign idea.

Quote
Those scriptures (Daniel and Revelation) describe that nation wherein Paul said in 11Thes.2, the falling away would occur and the man of lawlessness exalted and revealed.

Yeah, and the area Daniel was writing about that links with the events of Revelation 11:8 was specifically about Jerusalem (Dan.9-24-25).

Quote
John described that nation or "great city"  as Babylon the great.

The beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit in Rev.17:8 is the same one of Rev.11 that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses", which in Rev.11:8 we are told that is in Jerusalem, because that's where our Lord Jesus was crucified. That again makes the Rev.17 Babylon harlot link to Jerusalem.

Quote
Daniel described it as a little horn that waxed exceeding great.

Again, the area for that prophecy as given in the latter part of Dan.9 is Jerusalem, not America. The idea that America is the Revelation Babyon harlot does not originate from The Bible.

Quote
Jesus described it as the holy place or "Christian place" in Matt.24:15.

And in 11Thes.2 Paul described it as the temple of God or nation wherein are Christian Churches and Christian people.

The area my Lord Jesus was describing was Jerusalem. He and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives when they asked Him what the signs of the end of the world would be, and when. The "holy place" per Bible history refers to the heart of the Temple in Jerusalem. That's what He and His disciples there on the Mount of Olives were looking at when He gave the "abomination of desolation" prophetic link to the Book of Daniel.

The great falling away the apostle Paul spoke about also involves a false one inside the Temple at Jerusalem, for Paul was giving the same Message Christ did in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about events to occur upon Jerusalem. 2 Thess.2:3-4 is specifically about a false one sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That's the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel.

Quote
It is "the great City" Babylon (America) wherein the two witnesses will be murdered by the man of lawlessness.

That interpretation is OUTSIDE the Scripture. It is not written about America, but about Jerusalem as I've already shown. The area where Christ was crucified, which was literal Jerusalem, is where Revelation is speaking about. That last phrase of Rev.11:8 seals God's Word that Jerusalem is being talked about, and not any other area on earth.

Your attempt at throwing out a continual 'affirmation' like America is the endtime Babylon will fool no one who stays within the parameters of God's Word. For you have left those parameters.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:40:52
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:28:47
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.

Oh well, have it your way. Your self-fulfilling prophecy. You reap what you sow!

         (http://www.reverendfun.com/add_toon_info.php?date=20040809&language=en)

                 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: stevehut on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:38:19
Alright, maybe I'm the idiot here, but...

I don't understand why any of this matters.  I just want to make it to heaven and take as many people with me as I can.

Why is this important?

Steve   ::saint::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:55:06
Quote
Alright, maybe I'm the idiot here, but...

I don't understand why any of this matters.  I just want to make it to heaven and take as many people with me as I can.

Why is this important?

The only stupid question, is the one we won't ask, for we will never receive an answer for the same.

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

CHAPTER 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.





Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: stevehut on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:57:21
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.   ::shrug::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:17:03
Quote
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.

I agree, that the book of Revelation is a continuation of the prophecies of the book of Daniel for the new covenant era.  The four beasts of Daniel, are followed by three more in the book of Revelation.  The first beast of Rev. 13, is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy.  It should be noticed however, that it is not spoken of in global terms, until the deadly wound which it received, is healed.  Observation reveals that it is the second beast of Rev. 13 that aids it in healing.  It is at this time, that it becomes global in nature.  Which very events we are witnessing with our own eyes.

The result of this healing of the first beast with the aid of the second beast, results in the third and final beast of biblical prophecy.  The global beast, whose demands bring the entire world to the point of decision regarding the worship of God or otherwise, will ripen the harvests for Christ's return to reap the same.  These things will happen only because God has foretold them, and not because of any power by anybody or anything apart from God and His complete controle of all things, at all times.  Frightful as they may seem to the non believer, the child of God has nothing to fear, for death itself has already been conquered by their King.  For He is King of kings, and Lord of Lords.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.




Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:30:10
Quote
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.

There is the truth which came, and continues to come to us through Jesus Christ.  Then there is the lie, which came, and continues to come to us through the fallen one.  The struggle between the two will not end, until Christ returns to end all disputes.  Until then, the servants must serve their masters.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: stevehut on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:36:19
Amo, what is the lie? 

Still not keeping up here...

Steve   ::smile::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Amo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 19:29:38
Quote
Amo, what is the lie? 

Still not keeping up here...

Steve   


Well for us, it started in the garden of course.  God said eating of a certain tree would cause death.  Satan said it would not.  It has been going on ever since.  The truth is what Jesus taught.  The lie is everything else which contradicts the same.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 19:36:28
Quote
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.

There is the truth which came, and continues to come to us through Jesus Christ.  Then there is the lie, which came, and continues to come to us through the fallen one.  The struggle between the two will not end, until Christ returns to end all disputes.  Until then, the servants must serve their masters.





I wouldn't care to love a god that would have that kind of a plan for the salvation of mankind. Who would say one thing & do another. Who would say He "destroyed the works of the devil" yet still allowed demons or evil spirits or satan to taunt us? People can imitate satan, but there's no literal satan.

I think Luke 1:67-80 explains the timing as well as the purpose of Jesus to Israel. "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son." (Gal.4:4).


Zacharias’ Prophecy
   
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
       68 “ Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
      For He has visited and redeemed His people,
       69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
      In the house of His servant David,
       70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
      Who have been since the world began,
       71 That we should be saved from our enemies
      And from the hand of all who hate us,
       72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
      And to remember His holy covenant,
       73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
       74 To grant us that we,
      Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
      Might serve Him without fear,
       75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
       76 “ And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
      For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
       77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
      By the remission of their sins,
       78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
      With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
       79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
      To guide our feet into the way of peace.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 03:29:50
There is no devil? That certainly denies a lot of God's written Word then...

1 Pet 5:8
8   Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(KJV)

James 4:7
7   Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(KJV)

You mean all this time Peter and James were telling us to resist OURSELVES and not a literal entity called the devil? When following God, and the devil flees away from us, do we flee from ourselves? Where do our selves go?! Sounds idiotic doesn't it?

It should, because the devil is a real entity... a cherub...

Ezek 28:12-19
12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Was the historical king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden? No, of course not. But the devil was, and that's who God is talking about here, for a cherub is a heavenly being, not a flesh man.

14   Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15   Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The anointed cherub that covereth! That's what the devil's lofty position originally was when God created him, and before he rebelled against God.

16   By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17   Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

God says that cherub (the devil) will be seen laid before kings. How can a non-entity be seen if the he isn't real?

18   Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19   All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)


The idea that there is no literal devil called Satan is actually an ancient eastern religious idea. I've even heard some in the Church of Satan claim there is no literal devil. Why do they chose the name Satan for their Church then?

Because they've lost their senses and don't know the difference between going and coming. That's evidence the devil has done his work upon those deceivers very well.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 05:00:42
I'm not willing to let the seminarists rule here with their tethers about God's Israel.

How many realize per God's Word that only a small portion of Israelites were actually known as Jews? The Jewish historian Josephus said the name 'Jew' was first used by the small remnant of the 'house of Judah' which returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity to Babylon. The Book of Ezra gives just which Israelites those were, only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some of Levi. None of the other tribes are mentioned by Ezra as returning to Jerusalem.

The reason is because the MAJORITY of Israel had already been taken captive by the king of Assyria north of Babylon about 120 years prior to the Jews' captivity to Babylon. God said He would scatter Israel if they fell away from Him. That's what He did to the ten tribed kingdom called the "house of Israel" in His Word. They made up the majority of Israelites.

This means if Josephus was correct, none of those other tribes of the "house of Israel" went by the name Jew. That name comes from the sole tribe of Judah anyway. Right after Solomon's days, God caused Israel to be split into two separate Israelite kingdoms. The "house of Judah" was made up of two tribes at Jerusalem (eventually Levi also since the king of Israel in the north wouldn't allow them to do their priestly duties). The other tribes, ten specifically, dwelt in the northern lands and made up the "house of Israel", their capital city being Samaria. The two houses then began warring against each other soon after that split. This history is written starting in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, and it's an easy read.

The Book of Hosea gives a prophecy about the house of Israel (ten tribes) of how God would scatter them so they could get the full of their Baal worship they had fallen into. He then called them 'Loammi', or 'not My people'. God divorced the ten tribes of the house of Israel. He said they would become as many as the sands of the sea which can't be numbered. Then God said in the place where the ten tribes were called 'Loammi', He would then say to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God" (Hos.1:10).

What connection does that have with the Christian west? Much!

Rom 9:22-26
22   What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23   And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24   Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25   As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26   And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)

Paul is quoting directly from that passage in the Book of Hosea. Paul was overseer of the Churches in Asia. In the Hosea prophecy, God is not saying He was going to cast the ten tribes away forever, for this is about the ten tribes of Israel too, along with believing Gentiles under Christ. It points to this being fulfilled in the Christian west, the very Churches which Paul was made overseer of.

1 Pet 2:9-10
9   But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
10   Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
(KJV)

Then there's Peter saying the same thing, also quoting the Hosea prophecy about the ten tribes of Israel that were lost, joining under Christ along with Gentiles.

And if this majority of the people of old Israel weren't known by the name Jew like Josephus reveals, then who are they as scattered among the Gentiles among the Churches of Asia Minor?

At this time the two 'houses' of Israel which God split after Solomon's day is still not joined together as one under Christ Jesus. The Ezekiel 37 prophecy about the joining of the 'two sticks' of Israel is still future for when Christ returns.

The Jews did not lose their heritage as Israel, but the ten tribes did (but not to God; He knows where He scattered them). So it is gross error to think that only those calling themselves Jews today are the only ones some call national Israel, or flesh Israel I like to say. The Jewish historian of 100 A.D. also said in his day the ten tribes were still... scattered abroad, and were a great number of people, too many to be numbered. Now he wasn't talking about Jews, for he declared who the Jews were, the returning remnant to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. Josephus was not contradicting himself; he knew what he was saying. The ten tribes were never a part of the 70 years Babylon captivity.

This means we cannot separate God's Israel, nor believing flesh Israel apart from Christ's Church. For in reality, many of the ten lost tribes were scattered to the Asia Minor among the Churches where Paul was overseer. It was the majority of the ten tribes in the west that accepted Christ Jesus.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 09:14:36
by dp,
Quote
This means we cannot separate God's Israel, nor believing flesh Israel apart from Christ's Church. For in reality, many of the ten lost tribes were scattered to the Asia Minor among the Churches where Paul was overseer. It was the majority of the ten tribes in the west that accepted Christ Jesus.

Again, all Jewish genealogies end with Christ. The records were destroyed from Herod's temple during the war. Jew & Gentile became one in Christ.
Paul told Timothy & Titus to beware of useless genealogies & endless Jewish fables.

God made Ephraim & Judah one stick in the last days of Israel. The end of the age came for the Jewish dispensation when God left the building, the temple made with hands, in AD70. There is not Jew or Gentile but only the new man in Christ.

The church is the new creation made in the image & likeness of God. The surpassing greatness of the New Jerusalem, freed from the decay & defilements of the flesh & veiled glory of the law- was the city coming down from heaven shown to John in Revelation from God.
The glory of the 1st covenant was temporal & transitory. The glory of the New Covenant is heavenly & eternal (2Cor.3:7-8).
The glory of the 1st covenant was veiled beneath the types & shadows of the law (2Cor.3:13; Heb.10:1).
Man saw through a glass darkly- the types & shadows of the Mosaic law only dimly reflected God's purpose.
However, in Christ, the veil is taken away & we behold the glory of the Lord in the open (unveiled) face of Christ.(2Cor.3:12-18).
What was perceived only darkly through the veil of types & shadows under the former dispensation )prior to AD70 or the Mosaic disp.) - we NOW behold clearly, face to face in Christ. (Rev.21).

Rev.21:12,
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The church had been, as it were, homeless, naked, & defenseless- wasted & scattered by those that persecuted her children. Now all that had changed (2,000 yrs. ago- at the end of thee Old Covenant) Their persecutors have been destroyed & the saints of God are gathered together safely behind the walls of the New Jerusalem.
The Hebrew writer spoke to the nakedness & homelessness of the saints preceding the advent of the New Jerusalem when he said, "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come." (Heb.13:14).
Believing Jews were urged to endure hardships & inconveniences of a people with no certain dwelling place, looking to Abraham as an example of faith & perseverance. (Heb.11:8-16).
The patriarchs had all died without inheriting the promised city & redemption- but the 1st century church were they upon whom the ends of the ages were come- they would inherit the city whose builder & maker is God.
The walled city John saw descending was to strengthen the church during the period that lay ahead for them, through the assurance that their continuing habitation was near at hand. It is a spiritual city, & hence, its walls provide spiritual security to all who make God their dwelling place & Christ their abode.
The earthly Jerusalem was enclosed with walls of stone & mortar, her several gates guarded by watchmen & towers. The heavenly Jerusalem is enclosed by spiritual munitions, her gates guarded by angels. The angels may represent the apostles standing guard over the church's doctrine & teaching, by which men gain entrance to the city. The 12 gates bear the names if the tribes of the children of Israel, showing that it is the habitation of the spiritual Israel of God.

The 1st covenant was marked by particularism- the New is marked by universalism. The gospel call is for all men.

Rev.21:14,
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul described the church as a city & temple "built on the foundation of the apostles & prophets." (Eph.2:19-22). Christ is the church's one true foundation: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Cor.3:11).
Hence, the wall's 12 foundations bear the name of Christ's apostles, showing that the spiritual habitation of the just is encompassed within the teaching of those commissioned by Christ to build His church. "For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation." (1 Cor.3:9-10).

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Israel! This had to do with Old Covenant Israel. God had left the temple & terminated His Biblical & theocratic relationship with national Israel for all times, as predicted in Deuteronomy, in AD70. Christianity superseded Judaism in God's program.


Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 03:03:28
Don't listen to those false Jews brethren that want to hide what God's Word says about the MAJORITY of His people of the lost ten tribes of Israel, for the ten tribes of Israel are only lost to man and man's reckoning, not God's reckoning per His Word.

Amos 9:8-9
8   Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9   For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
(KJV)

God has not lost those whom He did foreknow. The "house of Jacob" represents all twelve tribes of Israel, but the "house of Israel" there specifically represents only the lost ten tribes of Israel, not Judah, not Benjamin, and not Levi.

This is NOT what the Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Timonthy 1 with the idea of "fables" he mentioned, which is Greek 'muthos' meaning a 'myth'. This is not a myth, it is part of God's Word. Neither is this about the idea of endless geneaolgies, because God has promised to restore Israel, and that means national Israel, the seed, even though many of them that refuse Christ will be cutoff. This is WHY in the Ezekiel 48 chapter is listed the inheritances of the twelves tribes of Israel, and also why our Lord Jesus told His Apostles that in the world to come they each would sit upon a throne ruling over one of the twelves tribes of Israel.

In Ezekiel 37 God gave the prophecy of two 'sticks'. He told Ezekiel to write on one stick "For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." (Ezek.37:16).

Then God told Ezekiel to join the two sticks together in his hand, and let the people see him do it. And when the people ask what does this mean, God told Ezekiel to say this to them:

Ezek 37:19-22
19   Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20   And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21   And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22   And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
(KJV)

If you continue to read the rest of that prophecy there in Ezekiel 37, you'll find it is set for the future of God's Kingdom of the world to come under Christ Jesus. That joining of the two sticks has not happened yet today.

But false Jews that have crept in unaware will lie and say that prophecy from God's Word is false. They will deny that very prophecy as written there in Ezekiel 37, and even call it a myth ("fables") and an endless genealogy when Paul was actually talking about the false myths and traditions which the Jewish Pharisee system had devised over the people! The reason they want you to deny that prophecy is because they want to claim God's Kingdom for themselves, and want to omit the largest part of the seed of Israel, the ten tribes of Israel called the "house of Israel" after Solomon's days.

For many years now the Jews have been trying to claim to be the sole existing branch of the seed of Israel. That's a big lie by the false Jews, because even devout Jewish rabbi have well recognized the scattering of the lost ten tribes of Israel, and their eventual reestablishing back into the nation when God's future Kingdom comes under The Messiah (Christ Jesus to us Christians).

DIVISION OF EAST AND WEST

It's not by chance the most blessed nations on earth since Christ came have been the Christian nations, most of them in the West. It's not by chance that even when eastern peoples accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Christ's ambassodors that they became blessed also! It's not coencidence that the non-believing leaders of the east have sought to attack the Christian west. The Christian west is where that "nation" is which Christ spoke of in the parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21. That's the areas of the earth which has become the spring-board for The Gospel going out to other nations in the world.

It's not by chance that the Christian west has held power over the going and coming of its enemies on earth (ruling the gates of their enemies, one of God's Promises to the seed of Israel).

It's not by chance that the Christian west has historically been able to produce much more food that it can consume (the blessing of plenty of corn and wine, what used to be called 'the horn of plenty' in America).

It's not by chance that the Christian west has had divinely appointed kings and queens upon thrones while not one king of Judah has ever ruled upon a throne in Jerusalem after the prophet Jeremiah's day (Zedekiah was the last king of Judah to rule in Jerusalem). Anyone who studies about God's promises to Israel in His Word will discover those promises established in the Christian west and its commonwealth nations since Christ crucified was preached there.

Even today, the genealogies of the kings and queens of European royalty is a requirement for heirs to those thrones, and that's under CHRISTIAN RULE, established under CHRIST JESUS, as those on the throne are even named DEFENDER OF THE FAITH. (See original KJV Letter to King James and The Reader). So don't let anyone tell you that's about endless genealogies and fables, for they lie.

Solomon fell away from God, and loved many women of the nations, and allowed them to bring in their false idols and pagan traditions into Israel, deceiving the people. God split the twelve tribes for that reason (1 Kings 11). He then setup one from the "house of Joseph" to be king over the ten tribes in the northern land of Israel. But one of Judah decended from David through Solomon became king over the other two tribes in Jerusalem. That's when the Bible term "house of Israel" applied only to the ten tribes in the north. Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was the one from the "house of Joseph" God made king over the ten tribes (1 Kings 11-12).

Let's count now, 2 tribes at Jerusalem called the "house of Judah". And then 10 tribes in the north called the "house of Israel". Which 'house' do you think had more Israelite peoples? If you said the "house of Israel", that's correct. And per Josephus the title 'Jew' became the name which only a small remnant of Judah began to use in Jerusalem after the return from Babylon! So let's count again: the Jews of a small remnant of the 2 tribed house of Judah as given in the Book of Ezra. The ten tribes of the house of Israel that were ALL gone out of the northern lands captive to Assyria 120 years before. The ten tribes were not known as 'Jews' (which title comes from the tribe of Judah only). Again, which is the majority of Israelites? The ten tribes have ALWAYS been the MAJORITY of Israelites.

So what were the ten tribes of Israel called? Not Jews! They were simply known as "ISRAEL". This is where the idea of their becoming 'LOST' comes from, because no one knows exactly where that group of the majority of Israelites are today. But we DO know from God's Word TWO MAJOR POINTS OF PROPHECY ABOUT THEM. They were a great number of seed, too many to count (even per Josephus in 100 A.D.!), and, their HEAD tribe EPHRAIM, was to become "a multitude of nations"! That's per Genesis 48:19 about Ephraim ONLY. WHERE THEN, was or is that "multitude of nations" prophecy for EPHRAIM fulfilled? IN THE CHRISTIAN WEST!

This is why God showed in Ezekiel 37:19 that the stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim. The tribe of Ephraim became the head tribe, and leader over the rest of the ten tirbes of Israel. JOSEPH AND HIS TWO SONS, EPHRAIM AND MANSESSH RECEIVED GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT PER 1 CHRONICLES 5.

Note the following ENDTIME prophecy Jacob gave to his son Joseph for the last days. It includes Ephraim and Manasseh, the two sons of Joseph:

Gen 49:22-26
22   Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23   The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24   But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

All this is about the seed of Joseph in the last days, our days, the days leading up to Christ's second coming, which is still yet future to us! The very first verse of Gen.49 sets that timing.

Joseph is a fruitful bough, by a well, whose branches run over the wall. Those are all symbolic metaphors for God's Birthright blessing having fallen upon Joseph, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. A fruitful bough means thick lush branches full of leaves, flowing and thriving! So thriving that they cannot be contained, but even run over the wall! The reason is, because his fruitful bough dwells by a WELL! What might that well symbolize here? It's Christ Jesus, for He represents The Living Waters!

The archers (Satan's darts) have attacked him, and hated him. Why? Because those are the enemies of Christ that want to steal Joseph's Birthright Blessing from God. The children of Esau is one of those, because Esau sold God's Birthright for a bowl beans, profaning it and treating it like something to be bought and sold like wares. Thus Esau lost it. The Blessing was moved to Jacob, and then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today!

But Joseph's bow dwelt in strength by God's Hand, which is another aspect of God's Birthright Blessing upon Joseph's seed (Psalms 60:7; Deut.33:13-17). From 'thence' is The Shepherd, The Stone of Israel. That's about the Jacob's pillar stone that Jacob dreamt upon, awoke and anointed the stone and called it 'Beth-El' (House of God).

Gen.49:25   Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, Who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26   The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(KJV)

Blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep, and blessings of the breast and womb; that's about God's Birthright blessing of great natural resources and a great number of people, as many as the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea for so many. That's the blessing that's was and still is upon Joseph's seed. Per Gen.48, Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh received the transfer of all that. The result was to be that Ephraim would become "A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS" and that Manasseh would also be "GREAT".

That foundation is what the Christian west is all about, under Christ Jesus. It is specifically WHY we have been so hated by the non-Christian world, and why the non-Christian world wants what GOD has given us. This is why so many peoples from other lands have sought to come to the Christian west because of its opportunities to thrive under peace, prosperity and liberty that have come from God's Birthright Blessings upon His people by The New Covenant Jesus Christ!

And the main thing is, the MAJORITY of the peoples who have a heritage in the FOUNDATION of the western Christian nations don't even KNOW they have a heritage from one of the ten lost tribes of Israel under Ephraim as head! Don't think for a minute I'm talking about Jews, for I'm not. The majority of Israelites descended from the ten tribes were never known as Jews. That title applied to the "house of Judah" only (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). That's the 'other' stick of Israel that's separate from the "house of Israel", even though many of them live among their own brethren in the west and calling them Gentiles when they are not.

Oh how the false Jews hate this teaching from God's Word about His Birthright that fell upon the head of Joseph, and Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. And they well know about it too, because that's why they'll even be the first ones to bring up Ephraim's name!

The real HEAT of hatred against God's people in the west is because Esau (Reds), Ishmael (radical Islam), and the old Canaanites (false crept in unawares) are ALLIED AGAINST THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL IN THE WEST! That's who that list of nations are in Ezekiel 38-39 that are to come upon both houses of Israel in the last days. It's about TWO different locations, since the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" are still split today. One location is to be the battle of "Hamongog" when God's enemies will come upon the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), and the other is Armageddon (Megido) in the area north of Jerusalem against the remnant of the "house of Judah" there. And some want to call all this from God's Word a 'myth'? Just who would have that kind of aim? Not God's people, that's for certain.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 03:53:05
What's being taught today instead of the Bible history about the ten tribes of Israel, their Bible prophecies from God and the foundation of the Christian west under Christ Jesus?

Instead we've got a bunch of mealy-mouth 'tares' that have crept into many high positions within Christian organizations and its schools of learning that have designed traps to lead away from what God's Word reveals about the MAJORITY of His people! They even teach against the prophecies about the ten tribes of Israel and God's Promise to restore them. They do that like they want the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel to just go away and be no more!

But God said it; He's going to one day sift the ten tribes under Ephraim of the "house of Israel" like corn through sieve, and not the least grain will fall on the ground (Amos 9:9).

When our Lord Jesus Christ returns in the future, this envying of Ephraim (ten tribes), and Judah's vexing of Ephraim will end...

Isa 11:12-13
12   And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13   The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)

But until then, Judah will continue to vex Ephraim by smearing its history within God's Promises, and Ephraim will envy Judah's place in today's world. The adversaries among Judah (the "tares" hidden among the wheat per Matt.13), will then be cut off.

All will then understand how God scattered the majority of His people of Israel (ten tribes) out of the Holy Land captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes because of their whoredomes to Baal idol worship, and then led them westward into Asia Minor and western Europe and let them have their Baal idols there to the full, and then when it was time, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for those of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", and The Gospel was then accepted by the majority of them in the lands of Asia Minor and western Europe, creating the foundation for the western Christian nations, the "multitude of nations" under EPHRAIM.

And 'thence', THERE in those lands is THE SHEPHERD, THE STONE OF ISRAEL.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 07:01:15
God divorced Israel... nothing else needs to be said.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 14:13:37
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 16:24:31
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.

Okee dokee then.  The only thing i could make out coherent there is the fact that you say God gave the Gentiles the New Covenant blessings & promises, that we are living now, & then He will bring in Israel?
That is backwards at the fundamental level. It was 1st to the Jew, then to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 49:5-6,
5 “ And now the LORD says,
      Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
      To bring Jacob back to Him,
      So that Israel is gathered to Him
      (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
      And My God shall be My strength),
       6 Indeed He says,
      ‘ It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
      To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
      And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
      I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
      That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 08:30:57
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.

Okee dokee then.  The only thing i could make out coherent there is the fact that you say God gave the Gentiles the New Covenant blessings & promises, that we are living now, & then He will bring in Israel?
That is backwards at the fundamental level. It was 1st to the Jew, then to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 49:5-6,
5 “ And now the LORD says,
      Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
      To bring Jacob back to Him,
      So that Israel is gathered to Him
      (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
      And My God shall be My strength),
       6 Indeed He says,
      ‘ It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
      To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
      And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
      I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
      That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 08:36:44
The funny thing is that recent DNA research has show the the Caucasian races have little to do with the middle east at any point in recorded history... so your entire premise is nothing by a fairy tale.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 09:38:20

by watcher,

Quote
Guess you missed the part where Jesus told the deciples, "Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, but go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And again where He said, "I have come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And i guess why you have no discernment of God's timing in Scripture is bc you choose to ignore the rest of His words:
And what did Jesus say to His apostles in approx AD30 also? (note the whole passage Matt.10:16-26) Here's part of that passage, although one MUST not consider it out of context to the rest of the passage:
23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Notice how He spoke this to the original apostles- AND NOT PAUL. Paul was not present so this does not apply to Paul.
Luke 2:34-35,
34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Thu Aug 27, 2009 - 03:57:45
No matter how much the false ones keeping trying to bury that little ole Scripture of prophecy like the Gen.48 prophecy that EPHRAIM would become "a multitude of nations", it keeps rearing its head! That's because God does not want His people to forget that He loves them, for there has ALWAYS been a remnant among the ten tribes that knows His Truth, as He promised in Hosea there would be.

The Apostle Paul confirmed this remnant of Israel also, but the false prophets against God's Word try to omit its meaning about the seed of Israel...

Rom 11:1-12
1   I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The subject here by Paul is the flesh seed of Israel, not Gentiles.

Rom.11:2   God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3   Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5   Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.[/b]

This "remnant according to the election of grace" Paul was speaking of are Israelites, not Gentiles.

Rom.11:6    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7   What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8   (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9   And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10   Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11   I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12   Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(KJV)

Does that mean God threw away all Israel, all His chosen? No, for as even Paul showed there's always been a remnant of Israel according to the election of God's Grace. And that remnant election of Israel involves the scattered ten tribes of the 'house of Israel' especially, because that's who founded the western Christian nations, the "multitude of nations" with Ephraim as head. The rest were blinded, which sadly included most of the Jews of the house of Judah.

Rom 11:13-15
13   For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was addressing that TO the Gentiles, but not ABOUT the Gentiles.

And it's not about ALL Israel falling away, but only the rest that were blinded. A big part of those blinded are the Jews, because their orthodoxy is about the traditions of the Pharisees that caused even Paul (Saul) at one time to be blinded into persecuting Christ's Church.

Rom.11:14   If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15   For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
(KJV)

If the blinded of Israel returns to The Father through Christ Jesus, then for them it's like life from the dead.

Rom 11:16-17
16   For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17   And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(KJV)

If some of the branches of Israel were broken off, and the Gentiles being a wild olive tree is graffed IN AMONG THEM, what's that mean? Who's the 'them'? It's Israel. This means even the Gentiles MUST be graffed IN AMONG ISRAEL, and with them partake of the ROOT and fatness of the original olive tree.

So sorry, that does NOT mean Christ's Church was ever separate from God's Israel. Christ's Church is God's Israel, but definitely not the Israel of the non-believing Jews, for they were blinded and refuse The Savior Jesus Christ. As long as they remain blinded they are cut off from the original olive tree.

The fact that Paul calls the Gentiles a "wild olive tree" being graffed in among Israel, means Christ's Church is ever about God's Israel. There's always been a remnant of Israel according to the election of grace that have NEVER been cut off, were never blinded. In other words, a remnant of Israel has ALWAYS existed according to election that came through the Old Covenant, then accepted The New Covenant Jesus Christ when He died on the cross, and became the foundation of God's Church, and thus Christ's Church.

Rom 11:23-27
23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If the blinded of Israel don't stay in blindness, but believe on The Savior Jesus Christ Whom The Father sent, then they will be graffed back in. And here Paul goes one further about the Gentiles, contrasting the Gentiles being "cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature", and then "graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree". It's doesn't mean the Gentiles are an olive tree by theirselves. For the ROOT represents Christ Jesus which both must be joined to.

25   For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26   And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27   For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(KJV)

Has God taken away Israel's sins today? Yes, for the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace that were NOT blinded. Because that involves many, many Israelites, especially among the ten tribes of the house of Israel that made up the majority of Israelites before they were scattered. That was possible because Christ Jesus died on the cross, and the "multitude of nations" prophecy about Ephraim came to pass in the West.

Eph 2:11-13
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

(KJV)

Paul's saying, remember when you were in times past Gentiles in the flesh, and at that time were without Christ, and were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God.

So to be without Christ, means to NOT be part of the "commonwealth of Israel". It also means to be strangers away from God's covenant promises, and even being without God.

And in the last verse Paul says that now if you are in Christ Jesus and were once afar off from those things, NOW you are partakers, "made nigh"!

Did Paul say the "commonwealth of The Church"? NO. HE SAID "THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL"!

So there it is, even taught by the Apostle Paul that Christ's Body has ALWAYS meant God's true Israel, which includes both the flesh seed remnant of election according to His grace, AND believing Gentiles graffed in AMONG ISRAEL.

Let's see if I can make it more plain. This ISRAEL Paul speaks of, is the same ISRAEL that has existed all throughout The Bible. It has NEVER ended. It progressed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant Jesus Christ. And then ISRAEL became a COMMONWEALTH, because of believing Gentiles being graffed in among the Israelite flesh seed remnant election of grace that existed previously.




Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Thu Aug 27, 2009 - 09:37:11
Listen to what Paul said about useless genealogies & Jewish fables.

He should know, as those Judaizers were like "satan" & a thorn in his flesh. But praise God, Christianity won over Judaism in God's program. See, the apostles' mission was not in vain.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:39:23

by watcher,

Quote
Guess you missed the part where Jesus told the deciples, "Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, but go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And again where He said, "I have come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And i guess why you have no discernment of God's timing in Scripture is bc you choose to ignore the rest of His words:
And what did Jesus say to His apostles in approx AD30 also? (note the whole passage Matt.10:16-26) Here's part of that passage, although one MUST not consider it out of context to the rest of the passage:
23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Notice how He spoke this to the original apostles- AND NOT PAUL. Paul was not present so this does not apply to Paul.
Luke 2:34-35,
34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:46:42
[
Again I ask, How can we possibly understand the prophetic scriptures of Daniel if we don't take into consideration the geneologies of the two peoples spoken of in the above verses?


Because the scriptures tell us not to.... plain and simple.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:55:57
[
Again I ask, How can we possibly understand the prophetic scriptures of Daniel if we don't take into consideration the geneologies of the two peoples spoken of in the above verses?


Because the scriptures tell us not to.... plain and simple.
Quote


LOL, Then if I were you I wouldn't even bother reading Daniel and Revelation and the other prophetic scriptures.  Nor would I attempt to discuss those scriptures with anyone. 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:58:36
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.



Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 11:24:50
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.




Quote


>>>Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.<<<

Yes, they've been fulfilled; mostly within the last half of this century, which makes it a BIG DEAL!

The falling away (apostasy) of the European Americans has already occured, and the ten horns (son of perdition) has already exalted and revealed himself, as foretold by Paul in 11Thes.2.

They have taken away the dominion of the European Americans, and  for the past fifty years they've been consuming and destroying America. And, they'll continue to do so right up until the end, as Daniel prophecied in 7:26.

Can you guess who the ten horns are?

Here, I'll give you some more clues taken from Rev.17.

Here's what verse 16 says of the ten horns that are upon the beast Babylon (upon America), 

"these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh (destroy her race), and burn her with fire (consume and destroy her)."

And what verse 17 says of the ten kings or European Americans,

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (unto the ten horns) until the words of God shall be fulfilled."



 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 13:42:21
by watcher,
Quote
The falling away (apostasy) of the European Americans has already occured, and the ten horns (son of perdition) has already exalted and revealed himself, as foretold by Paul in 11Thes.2.

That would be hilarious if you weren't serious.

Rev.17 says "Here is the mind which has wisdom" for a reason. (it's times like these that i know why it says that)

Ask, & i will let you know the prophecy of the Harlot, the 7kings, & the "calvary" extensions of Rome that were called to the battle.

Either way, you won't be wasting my future on your imaginary stories of doom & gloom.





Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 13:45:59

Yes, they've been fulfilled; mostly within the last half of this century, which makes it a BIG DEAL!


They were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.

You my friend are living a lie.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 07:19:17
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.

Thinking that the Matthew 24 prophecy has already been fulfilled is silly, and the following verses prove it:

Matt 24:30-31
30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31   And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

This Revelation 1:7 verse is that same event...

Rev 1:7
7   Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

That's the event of Christ's second coming, which the Apostle Paul was teaching of in 1 Thess.4:16-17, and in 1 Corinthians 15. That has NOT happened yet to this day. Nor is it recorded in history. Since the Scripture has a condition that "all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him", it means they will recognize that event of His coming. Yet none have ever shown they witnessed it nor has a written witness of it ever been recorded.

Those who believe it has happened already have been terribly duped by false prophets. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:58:16
They HAD to have happened... because the scriptures give a SPECIFIC time frame.. and that time frame elapsed a long time ago.

To say that he hasn't returned is to deny the scriptures.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 09:03:08
by dp,
Quote
Matt 24:30-31
30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31   And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

This Revelation 1:7 verse is that same event...

Rev 1:7
7   Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

That's the event of Christ's second coming, which the Apostle Paul was teaching of in 1 Thess.4:16-17, and in 1 Corinthians 15. That has NOT happened yet to this day. Nor is it recorded in history. Since the Scripture has a condition that "all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him

Note who was to literally "see" or at least perceive that He was the Son of God in heaven at the right hand of power- it was the "tribes of the land" the kindreds of Israel (the land , earth)

Too bad they didn't live to talk about it.  But we should be able to discern that -in Scripture! (& history helps also).
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 09:17:58
Quote
Quote

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

WOW, dp...First you say that Babylon the great is Jerusalem, and now you're saying that it's "a world system with ten kings ruling over all nations".

Appears to me you're a bit confused.

The beast which John saw and described coming out of the sea in Rev.13:1 is the same Babylon that he saw and described in Rev.17:3.  

Notice:
Rev.17:3  "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And Rev.13:1  "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

The "seven heads" and "ten horns" upon the beast represents all the races of people that are upon Babylon.

Though you people keep denying it, the Babylon which John described was/is modern-day  AMERICA.




Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Sun Aug 30, 2009 - 08:47:38
They HAD to have happened... because the scriptures give a SPECIFIC time frame.. and that time frame elapsed a long time ago.

To say that he hasn't returned is to deny the scriptures.


You are obviously confused, because written in Matthew 24:42 is Christ saying no man knows the day or hour of His coming, meaning His second coming. The time of Christ's FIRST coming to die on the cross was given through the Old Testament prophets, but not the time of His second coming to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

To say that Christ has returned already is actually denying The Scriptures.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 08:38:47
by watcher,
Quote
The falling away (apostasy) of the European Americans has already occured, and the ten horns (son of perdition) has already exalted and revealed himself, as foretold by Paul in 11Thes.2.

That would be hilarious if you weren't serious.
Quote


You're right, I've never been more serious about anything in my life.

Paul stated in 11Thes.2 that, before Christ can return to earth there has to occur the apostasy or falling away first, and afterwards the man of lawlessness exalted and revealed.

As I stated before, this scripture, as well as all other end-time scriptures are about the European Americans (the ten kings), and about that other race (other ten horns) that Daniel described in 7:24, and that John described in Rev.17:12 and16.

In this case the falling away or apostasy means, the public abandoning of a doctrine .

Thus what Paul was saying in 11Thes. 2:3 was that, Christ cannot return to earth until out there in the future when the European Americans fall away from a doctrine once held by their ancestors about the man of lawlessness.

Notice Paul said that this would have to occur first, before that man of lawlessness (other ten horns) could exalt themselves.

So, what was that doctrine once held by our ancestors about the man of lawlessness, and of which we modern-day European Americans have abandoned and fallen away from?
Was it not the doctrine of interracial sex and marriage?

And, isn't that interracial sex and marriage that which Daniel and John called the abomination of desolation or the abomination that makes desolate the ten kings ie, the European Americans?

Isn't this what Paul was referring to by the term mystery of iniquity in 11Thes.2:7?

Is this teaching too deep for you people?
Can you not understand the meat of the Word?

"Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Hebrews 5:14)
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:05:03
They HAD to have happened... because the scriptures give a SPECIFIC time frame.. and that time frame elapsed a long time ago.

To say that he hasn't returned is to deny the scriptures.


You are obviously confused, because written in Matthew 24:42 is Christ saying no man knows the day or hour of His coming, meaning His second coming. The time of Christ's FIRST coming to die on the cross was given through the Old Testament prophets, but not the time of His second coming to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

To say that Christ has returned already is actually denying The Scriptures.



So Jesus and John lied?

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:34:06
They HAD to have happened... because the scriptures give a SPECIFIC time frame.. and that time frame elapsed a long time ago.

To say that he hasn't returned is to deny the scriptures.

Quote

Someone has really done a number on you.  I actually feel sorry for you.

The second Coming of Christ is going to be the most glorious sight the born-again Christian believer has ever witnessed, yet the most frightening sight ever witnessed by the non-believer and the deceived.

Christ's 2nd Coming will be thus:

A loud trumpet is going to sound...so loud it will awake the dead.

Then a loud shout from the voice of the Archangel.

Afterwards, the heavens are going to roll back like a scroll, revealing all the saints that have lived and died throughout history, with Jesus leading the pack.

Then, the saints that are alive and on the earth will be caught up with them.

You need to dismiss the word "soon" in those passages of scriptures, for a day is like a thousand years to Jesus, and a thousand years like a day.





Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:37:38
What else are we supposed to dismiss in your version of the bible?

John wrote Revelation.. I don't think he was as confused as you.

I also don't think Jesus intended 2000 years when he said this generation.

You are so deluded it isn't funny anymore.. you pick and chose what you want to believe based on some version of the bible you have in your own head.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:45:40
What else are we supposed to dismiss in your version of the bible?

John wrote Revelation.. I don't think he was as confused as you.

I also don't think Jesus intended 2000 years when he said this generation.

You are so deluded it isn't funny anymore.. you pick and chose what you want to believe based on some version of the bible you have in your own head.


When Jesus said "this generation", He meant the generation that would witness His 2nd Coming, and the events of that generation which would lead up to His 2nd Coming.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:48:05
If that is what he meant then why didn't he clarify it?...  he would have said THAT generation instead of THIS generation.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 09:54:13
by watcher,
Quote
Isn't this what Paul was referring to by the term mystery of iniquity in 11Thes.2:7?


You cannot fast forward Paul's words to 2,000yrs+ in the future. You must honor what the scripture says.

This verse alone tells ANYONE that Paul was directing his words to his audience of Christians in AD52. Paul is NOT speaking to you or me directly. Here's the verse:

2Thess.2:5,
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

OK watcher, overcome that verse & you could prove my point wrong- But you can't!

Now, "the mystery of iniquity that was already at work" was behind the scenes. Nero was not manifest yet. He was not emperor until AD54. In AD52, king or emperor # 5- Claudius was on the Roman throne. However, behind the scenes was Claudius' wife, Agrippina, who was plotting to kill him so her son, Nero- could become Emperor. And so she did poison Claudius, so Nero (the man of sin) could be made emperor.

The apostasy (or any apostasy, is always those who turned away from the Faith.) Jesus expressly predicted this falling away in His prophetic discourse- Mt. 24:10,12. St. Paul gives a full delineation of the apostasy, also described as being in the "last days. " Throughout Scripture the apostles confirmed that they were living in the last days. (These were the last days of the Jewish dispensation, or "the end of the AGE of Judaism & the Law." God would forever leave the temple made with hands & bring all believers into the spiritual kingdom of the New Jerusalem. Paul warned Timothy of these defectors. (1Tim.
4:1-3; 2 Tim.3:1-9)

So, 1st watcher, see that Paul's discourse was audience relevant. And then you can research the applicable history that brings the appropriate interpretations of the Text.



Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 06:41:55
by watcher,
Quote
Isn't this what Paul was referring to by the term mystery of iniquity in 11Thes.2:7?


You cannot fast forward Paul's words to 2,000yrs+ in the future. You must honor what the scripture says.

This verse alone tells ANYONE that Paul was directing his words to his audience of Christians in AD52. Paul is NOT speaking to you or me directly. Here's the verse:

2Thess.2:5,
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

OK watcher, overcome that verse & you could prove my point wrong- But you can't!

Now, "the mystery of iniquity that was already at work" was behind the scenes. Nero was not manifest yet. He was not emperor until AD54. In AD52, king or emperor # 5- Claudius was on the Roman throne. However, behind the scenes was Claudius' wife, Agrippina, who was plotting to kill him so her son, Nero- could become Emperor. And so she did poison Claudius, so Nero (the man of sin) could be made emperor.

The apostasy (or any apostasy, is always those who turned away from the Faith.) Jesus expressly predicted this falling away in His prophetic discourse- Mt. 24:10,12. St. Paul gives a full delineation of the apostasy, also described as being in the "last days. " Throughout Scripture the apostles confirmed that they were living in the last days. (These were the last days of the Jewish dispensation, or "the end of the AGE of Judaism & the Law." God would forever leave the temple made with hands & bring all believers into the spiritual kingdom of the New Jerusalem. Paul warned Timothy of these defectors. (1Tim.
4:1-3; 2 Tim.3:1-9)

So, 1st watcher, see that Paul's discourse was audience relevant. And then you can research the applicable history that brings the appropriate interpretations of the Text.




Quote


Daniel 11:31 says,
"they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place (put in place) the abomination that maketh desolate."
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."  (Dan.12:11)

Please explain these things, and what Nero had to do with it.  What was the daily sacrifice, and who were the they that took the daily sacrifice away?

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: JohnDB on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 07:28:24
Here is an interesting video...

a little long but it discusses this thing at length and in detail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYWlB64upSc&e
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 09:29:08
Here is an interesting video...

a little long but it discusses this thing at length and in detail.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYWlB64upSc&e[/url]



That IS sick!
Imagine people actually losing touch with reality & believing such fiction?!

What God prophesied already took place in the natural. 

The kingdom is spiritual.

That's reality.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 10:18:48
Here is an interesting video...

a little long but it discusses this thing at length and in detail.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYWlB64upSc&e[/url]

Quote


The man in the video is correct...End-time scriptures which are being taught in today's Evangelical and Pentacostal churches come straight from the pen of ol John Darby in the 18th Century.  Darby himself was a Christian Zionist who taught that Israel was the focal point of end-time prophecies.  And so, he spreculated and used his own private interpretation of those scriptures.

He's the one who started the whole notion of an end-time false messiah or Antichrist.  He taught that the Antichrist would, in the last days stand in Jerusalem in the (yet to be rebuilt) temple, claiming to be God.  And that the Antichrist would take away the daily (yet to be reinstated) animal sacrifices, and would then go after the believing Jews to kill them.  He taught that this would all take place after the rapture of the Church.
That was almost 200 years ago that he made these predictions, and America's modern-day churches have swallowed hook, line, and sinker all that he taught, and are themselves teaching it.

Those Church leaders have totally overlooked the scriptures in Dan.12 in which the angel of the Lord told Daniel to shut up and seal the writtings of his book until the time of the end when knowledge and understanding of his prophecies would increase.
 
In other words, the angel was saying that, Daniel's prophecies could not be unterstood until the time of the end, AFTER those prophecies had been fulfilled.  Then and only then (at the time of the end) would they be able to understand where and who the prophecies are about.  THEN would they be able to interpret what is meant by "the daily sacrifice", and "the abomination that maketh desolate", etc.  Then and only then would they be able to interpret and know whom the man of lawlessness is.

People, we're living at the time of the end, and AMERICA is the place wherein all these scriptures have come to pass.
Don't take my word for it, instead you must STUDY those scriptures, and apply the terms and events recorded in the scriptures, to those events which have occured in AMERICA, particularly the events which have occured over the last half of this century.













Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 10:21:39
The time of the end was the end of the sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem.. which ended in AD70.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 12:18:20
The time of the end was the end of the sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem.. which ended in AD70.

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"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."  (Dan.12:11)

OK, then what was that abomination of desolation that was set up 3 and a half to 4 years after the daily sacrifice was taken away?

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 12:39:19
First of all you have to define the ambiguous term 'abomination of desolation'.


Wikipedia has a good little snippet on it.

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In modern Biblical scholarship

The 1 Maccabees usage of the term points to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-second century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar to Zeus in the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and sacrificed swine on it around the year 167 BC. Accordingly, most modern scholars believe that Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11 are a prophecy after the event (or vaticinium ex eventu) relating to Antiochus.[7][8] (see Dating of the Book of Daniel).

Many modern Biblical scholars[9] conclude that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are prophecies after the event about the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman general Titus[10] (see Dating of the Gospel of Mark).

    "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city." Luke 21:20-21
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 03:57:48
And it still impossible to prove the following events happened already in Jerusalem...

Zech 14:1-9
1   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3   Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4   And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5   And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
6   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7   But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8   And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9   And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
(KJV)

There are literal events on earth that are to take place at Christ's second coming, which is what that Zechariah 14 chapter is declaring.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 04:10:58
Many of the same Bible scholars that claim the Romans fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" event in 70 A.D. Jerusalem forget to note what Antiochus Epiphanes did around 170 B.C. in setting up idol worship in Jerusalem and sacrificing swine in the Temple and spreading its broth around inside the Temple.

But the Romans in 70 A.D., per the Jewish historian Josephus, never got a chance to do the kind of things Antiochus did, because the Temple caught fire.

If Antiochus Epiphanes better fullfiled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in 165-170 B.C. than the 70 A.D. Romans, then what does that show?

It shows that Antiochus and the Roman general Titus only served as TYPES for the "abomination of desolation" event. It reveals our Lord Jesus was actually speaking of a FINAL fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem at a later date, i.e., the very end of this world (still future to us even).

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 04:31:30
For those who think the "abomination of desolation" event of Matthew 24 our Lord mentioned from the Book of Daniel was history, then you might want to keep an eye on a certain orthodox Jewish group in today's Jerusalem, a group called The Temple Mount Faithful And Land of Israel movement. They have a webiste.

They have been gathering the materials to build a third Temple in Jerusalem sometime in our near future. They have already been doing animal sacrifices on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount on Jewish passover for several years now. They already have many of the implements required for the Old Covenant Temple style worship, and even have stonecutters that have cut a cornerstone to set in place on the Temple Mount to rebuild the Temple. They have even marched that cornerstone up to the gates of the Temple Mount to try and set it in place, but the Israeli authorities won't allow them access, yet.

They have been petitioning other Jews around the world for funds, and also Christian Churches for funds. One Christian group in Tennessee even founded a corp. called 'Jesus, Inc.' to send them red heifers for sacrifice. The Jewish Sanhedrin has formed up again in Jerusalem,. There's claim of the finding of the Ark of The Covenant, which is required for Temple worship. And evidently the question of the unblemished red heifer requirement for purifying before going up to the Temple Mount has been settled, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared to set a cornerstone in place.

Those are events of today that should not be considered lightly. There's even evidence of some Islamic clerics warming up to the idea of allowing a Jewish Temple to built on the Temple Mount to exist along with the Dome of The Rock.

So the more some want to push the "abomination of desolation" events back to 70 A.D., it appears more events are happenning in today's Jerusalem to show a strong possibility of another future fulfillment.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Tantor on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 06:35:21
All you need is faith and the proof is right in front of you.

Futurism, which is what you believe, is new age theology... someone invented it in the 1800's..

Do you think God would keep things hidden for 1800 years?.... I don't think so.

Might as well pull out your crystals and quiga boards.

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: JohnDB on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 07:06:06
All you need is faith and the proof is right in front of you.

Futurism, which is what you believe, is new age theology... someone invented it in the 1800's..

Do you think God would keep things hidden for 1800 years?.... I don't think so.

Might as well pull out your crystals and quiga boards.



Futurism started before even then. Marco Polo was thinking that since now the "America's were going to be settled and witnessed to that the end of the world was at hand as these were the last lands to hear the Gospel.

He was trying to find a way to India that was faster and would go by China so that missionaries could go to China per the emporor's request of his parents.

And the "Abomination that Causes Desolation" as recorded by Josephus in Wars of the Jews...

The fire of the Temple was first. Flaming arrows caught the stores of wood and food on fire. Their storage rooms were overflowing and thus burned. The doors keeping the Roman's at bay though instead of being solid bronze were wooden overlayed with bronze...and that was a discovery that ended the three and a half year seige.

The abomination that causes Desolation was not only the Golden Roman Eagle on top of the main gate into the Temple which was a way of saying that Jews could only worship God at Caesar's (who was claiming divinity) permission. but also effigies of Caesar were put up all over town...another abomination for Jerusalem.

Every bit as bad as what Antiochus did.

Also...how well do you have to do the Abomination that causes desolation in order for it to upset God?
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: dp on Fri Sep 04, 2009 - 13:54:21
JohnDB said:
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Also...how well do you have to do the Abomination that causes desolation in order for it to upset God?

The "dragon" of Rev.13, the "son of perdition", "that Wicked" of 2 Thess.2, all point to the devil himself coming to sit in the Temple in Jerusalem. THAT'S how well the "abomination of desolation" event will top all other 'types' that have gone before.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Fri Sep 04, 2009 - 14:38:27
JohnDB said:
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Also...how well do you have to do the Abomination that causes desolation in order for it to upset God?

The "dragon" of Rev.13, the "son of perdition", "that Wicked" of 2 Thess.2, all point to the devil himself coming to sit in the Temple in Jerusalem. THAT'S how well the "abomination of desolation" event will top all other 'types' that have gone before.

That is a totally incoherent statement. Did you know that God is not the author of confusion?

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 12:35:38
JohnDB said:
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Also...how well do you have to do the Abomination that causes desolation in order for it to upset God?

The "dragon" of Rev.13, the "son of perdition", "that Wicked" of 2 Thess.2, all point to the devil himself coming to sit in the Temple in Jerusalem. THAT'S how well the "abomination of desolation" event will top all other 'types' that have gone before.

That "Wicked" or "son" of perdition" is just that....he's the "son" of the devil.  Cain was one of them.  Judas as well.  Thus, instead of one, there are many whom are the sons of perdition (pl.). They are the race which sprang from the Devil and Cain.
 
In chapter 9, verse 26 Daniel in fact called them "the people of the prince", meaning, the people of Gog, their "chief prince".

In their visions, both Daniel and John saw them as "the ten horns" which are upon that end-time beast kingdom (upon Babylon, ie America).

Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: stevehut on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 12:38:25
Can someone explain to me why this is important?   ???
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 12:45:12
So you don't care about the truth.  I thought we wanted the truth on this Forum.  ::pondering:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: watcher on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 13:10:33
Can someone explain to me why this is important?   ???

It's important that all European peoples know whom the man of sin; son of perdition is, especially the European Americans.  So that they'll know to not co-habit with that race, and exalt him.  For to do so is called "the abomination that maketh desolation", meaning, the abomination that makes the caucasian race desolate.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: rezar on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 17:24:37
Can someone explain to me why this is important?   ???


Exactly. In fact, i think watcher (http://forums.somd.com/images/customavatars/avatar1880_4.gif)  & dp are getting funnier !
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: stevehut on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 21:59:24
It's important that all European peoples know whom the man of sin; son of perdition is, especially the European Americans.  So that they'll know to not co-habit with that race, and exalt him. 

Huh?   ::headscratch::
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Stormcrow on Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 02:28:23
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AMERICA is the subject of end-time scriptures, NOT Israel.

America didn't even exist at the time when apostolic eschatology was being fulfilled before the people of the generation Jesus addressed had passed.

Therefore, "end-time scriptures" cannot possibly be about America.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: Consumingfire24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 01:45:20
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Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

To which scriptures are you referring?

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What of the "Man Child?"

Christ

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Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

Israel would need to be a nation for almost any end time prophecies to be fulfilled.  That would be the logical reason why they could not be interpreted until the time.  Also, Islam trying to take over the world would have been inconceivable even 50 years ago.

Adonai has mentioned which countries come against his people by name and they are all the current enemies of Israel.  He even rebukes present day Hamas and Hezbollah for constantly coming against His people. 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: gbzone on Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 05:35:55
Just a simple note.

The sun rises in the east  and sets in the west .

This can be aplied spiritualy  as in Jerusalem  to Europe to the UK to the USA .

it can also be aplied politicly.

Babylon .Persia. Greece.Rome.Uk. Usa. Jerusalem.

To sugest  that because Jesus is not recorded of speaking about Jerusalem( he did by the way re the restoration of the kingdom of God)  neither then by your reasoning  did he speak about the AMERICA!

But in that he is the Son of David.
who will one day sit on hsi fathers throne  and whos kindom will have no end.
I fail to see how you arrive at it is the USA and not Jerusalem .For it is not the USA who si the apple of Gods eye . But Isreal and the Jews.
and it si not the USA( who is now the head) who is destined to be the head of all the nations.But Isreal (who si now the tail).

There is so much wron g with your post you need to be shut up with God for a while .

in Christ

gerald 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: DaveW on Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 06:33:15
Can someone explain to me why this is important?   ???
It's important that all European peoples know whom the man of sin; son of perdition is, especially the European Americans.  So that they'll know to not co-habit with that race, and exalt him.  For to do so is called "the abomination that maketh desolation", meaning, the abomination that makes the caucasian race desolate.

Well since most Jews, Jesus included, are Caucasian; that seems highly unlikely.

The  "abomination that maketh desolation" has to do with a re-start of the sacrifice system, thus dissing the sacrifice of Our Lord on the cross.
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: hammer123 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 - 15:22:50
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It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.

The books were written to us. 
Title: Re: America or Israel?
Post by: FireSword on Wed Dec 19, 2012 - 18:09:58
Can someone explain to me why this is important?   ???
It's important that all European peoples know whom the man of sin; son of perdition is, especially the European Americans.  So that they'll know to not co-habit with that race, and exalt him.  For to do so is called "the abomination that maketh desolation", meaning, the abomination that makes the caucasian race desolate.

Well since most Jews, Jesus included, are Caucasian; that seems highly unlikely.

The  "abomination that maketh desolation" has to do with a re-start of the sacrifice system, thus dissing the sacrifice of Our Lord on the cross.

No he causes the sacrifices to cease. He sets up the image of the beast. That's the abomination of desolation an idolotry practice of worshipping the man of sin.