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Offline watcher

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America or Israel?
« on: Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 14:39:19 »
End-time events: where do they occur?

Throughout history Bible scholars have taught that Israel and the Jews are the focus of end-time events,  but is that really the case?

Did Paul in 11Thes.2 say that the man of lawlessness would sit in Israel or in a rebuilt temple in Israel, proclaiming himself as God?

And, did Jesus in Matt.24:15 say that the abomination of desolation would occur in Israel or in a rebuilt temple in Israel?

The simple fact is, No, neither Jesus nor Paul mentioned the nation of Israel as being the place where the falling away would occur and where the man of lawlessness would be exalted and revealed....nor the place where the abomination that makes desolate would occur.

In order to pinpoint where that temple of God is that Paul spoke of, and that holy place of which Jesus spoke, we must go to the sourse of end-time scriptures which is the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation.
Surprisingly neither Daniel nor John the Revelator mentions Israel in regards to the man of lawlessness that's worshipped in the last days.  In addition there is not one mention of the word Jews in either of those books.
And yet Bible scholars have always maintained that it's all about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

Fact is, God went to great lengths to show unto Daniel and to John that nation wherein would occur the falling away and the exaltation of the man of lawlessness in the last days.  That nation was and is AMERICA.
But, since America had not yet been establiched, God used symbols and allegories and metaphors to describe it.

You'll find descriptions of Europe, and the European Americans which came out of that kingdom in Dan.7:7,8...and in Dan.7:23,24...and in Dan.8:9,10.
In those passages you'll find also the descriptions of the man of lawlessness. 

Notice in 7:7,8
7  "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast (Europe)....and it had ten horns" (it had a people).

8  "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn (America)....In this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things (man of lawlessness)."

And in verses 23,24
23  "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth (the European kingdom)...

24  "And the ten horns (the people) out of this kingdom are ten kings (the European Americans) that shall arise: and another (another ten horns; another people, ie, the man of lawlessness) shall rise after them....

And in Dan.8
9  "And out of one of them (out of Europe) came forth a little horn (America), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

10  "And it waxed great even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (the Christian host people) to the ground, and stamped upon them."

11  "Yea, he (the little horn ie, America) magnified himself even to the prince of the host (to the man of lawlessness), and by him (by the little horn) the daily sacrifice (the daily school prayer) was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."

This same little horn that waxed exceeding great which God showed to Daniel, is the same Babylon the great  which God showed to John the Revelator.
Both are descriptions of AMERICA.

Thus when we read 11Thes.2 we may be confident that Paul is saying that, Christ cannot return to earth until the rise and fall of the European Americans, and until the man of lawlessness exalt themselves above them.














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America or Israel?
« on: Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 14:39:19 »

larry2

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 15:16:21 »

Dear watcher, does your thinking coincide with Armageddon or "the hill or city of Megiddo?" Is that somewhere in New York?
 
Revelation 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 
May I ask what church teaches this?

In Jesus' name - larry2


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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Aug 17, 2009 - 15:16:21 »

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #2 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 05:19:48 »
[
Quote
quote author=larry2 link=topic=37442.msg678952#msg678952 date=1250540181]

Dear watcher, does your thinking coincide with Armageddon or "the hill or city of Megiddo?" Is that somewhere in New York?

I have no idea where Megiddo will be. 
Supposedly the battle of Armageddon will occur when Christ returns to earth.  I spoke of events which occur before Christ's return.
 
 
Quote
May I ask what church teaches this?

I don't know if any church teaches what I teach.  Most if not all Pentacostal/Evangelical churches  teach "the Antichrist" fable.


Offline OldDad

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #3 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 07:28:24 »
Larry2 - it sounds like Armstrongism.

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #3 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 07:28:24 »

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:16:58 »
Quote
Larry2 - it sounds like Armstrongism.

Are you saying that my teaching sounds like that which Armstrong taught?

But I thought Armstrong taught basically the same about the end-times as do all other preachers!
Did he not teach, as does every other preacher, about a false messiah called "the Antichrist", and how that he would sit in a rebuilt temple in Israel, claiming to be God?

Well, I don't teach that.  Fact is, I believe that the Antichrist teaching is a fable which men have invented.  There are no scriptures which support that teaching.

As I stated in my opening post:  AMERICA is the subject of end-time scriptures, NOT Israel.
Israel is mentioned only once in Daniel, and that is in chapter 9, verses 24,25 in which the prophet fortold of Israel's rebirth in 1948. 
He explained that Israel's rebirth would begin the 70 year countdown to Christ's return. 


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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:16:58 »



larry2

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:41:57 »
[
Quote
quote author=larry2 link=topic=37442.msg678952#msg678952 date=1250540181]

I spoke of events which occur before Christ's return.
 
I don't know if any church teaches what I teach.  Most if not all Pentacostal/Evangelical churches  teach "the Antichrist" fable.



I'm have no idea of your eschatology, though it seems you believe that Matthew Chapter 24 is in full view at this present time, and seemingly Daniel Chapters seven and eight are not waiting for the appearance of Israel sacrificing again. You somehow believe a nation instead of a leader of nations will be the antichrist, or little horn of Daniel Chapter Seven.

I'm at the point of going with OldDad on this despite what "Armstrongism" is. You make light of churches that believe the reality of the antichrist as being a fable, and I would suppose that would include the false prophet of Daniel Chapter Eight. Maybe you have inside information?

This should be very interesting. I once heard similar things from a white supremacist group, though they were anti-Israel; not anti-America. I hope this doesn't come to that as I have seen special interests manipulate scripture to fit their warped prejudices. Let us hear what you have.  ::smile::

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2


Offline OldDad

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 09:48:57 »
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:25:52 »
Quote
Quote from: larry2 
I'm have no idea of your eschatology, though it seems you believe that Matthew Chapter 24 is in full view at this present time[/quote

Except for the time of trouble or tribulation that's soon to come upon America, ALL THINGS are in full view.  In other words ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

Quote
and seemingly Daniel Chapters seven and eight are not waiting for the appearance of Israel sacrificing again.
 

The "daily sacrifice and oblation" of which Daniel spoke, has nothing at all to do with animal sacrifices.  It has to do with America, and the taking away of the daily school prayer in 1963.

Quote
You somehow believe a nation instead of a leader of nations will be the antichrist, or little horn of Daniel Chapter Seven.

Yes, I interpret the little horn that waxed exceeding great as being AMERICA.  As for the antichrist, there's no such person mentioned in the prophetic scriptures of Daniel or Revelation or 11Thes.2 or any other of the prophetic scriptures.
The "son of perdition" whom you mistakingly refer to as "the antichrist" is not one, but many.  In fact Judas Iscarot was one of them.


Quote
I'm at the point of going with OldDad on this despite what "Armstrongism" is. You make light of churches that believe the reality of the antichrist as being a fable, and I would suppose that would include the false prophet of Daniel Chapter Eight. Maybe you have inside information?


Neither Daniel nor John the Revelator ever spoke of the son of perdition as being one man called "the antichrist".
Daniel 7:24 describes the son of perdition as being that of another ten horns or another people that would rise after the ten kings ie, after the European Americans.
In Revelation 17 we see them as the ten horns that are upon the beast Babylon (upon America).


Quote
This should be very interesting. I once heard similar things from a white supremacist group, though they were anti-Israel; not anti-America. I hope this doesn't come to that as I have seen special interests manipulate scripture to fit their warped prejudices. Let us hear what you have.  ::smile::

Oh yes, I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  And so all they have to throw back at me are insults and accusations.
I hope that's not going to be the case with you and the others here.

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:28:34 »
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #9 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 12:34:44 »
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.


larry2

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:23:19 »

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2


Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:25:38 »
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.


Quote

Oh but they were written to me...and to you...and to everyone else that's living today!

In fact the angel of the Lord told Daniel in chapter 12 to close and seal up the book he had written until the time of the end, meaning that, Daniel's prophecies could not be understood until the time of the end.

We today are living at the time of the end.  
By looking back at America's history, especially over the past 50-60 years of America's history, we can correctly apply most of Daniel's prophecies to events which have occured in America.

Looking at an event which has ALREADY occured, and applying that event to a prophetic scripture, is how we're supposed to interpret those scriptures.  

Yet there are those, such as John Darby and preachers of the Reformation era who speculated, and came up with their own private interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  They incidently are the very ones who invented "the Antichrist" fable.


Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:38:00 »
Quote

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

To which scriptures are you referring?

Quote
What of the "Man Child?"

Christ

Quote
Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:43:39 »
Quote
It's the same old scripture twisting and unproven assumptions ("fourth beast (Europe)... little horn (America)" - stated but nowhere close to being proven) that we've seen before.

This too shall pass...

No twisting of scriptures on my part!
I interpret them as I see them, which is the way Jesus taught us.

"When you see these things come to pass", He said.

You have to understand them from the world view of a 1st century Jew in Palestine in order to not twist them.

All that symbolism written down had specific meanings back then and not the general meanings people like you try and impose on them from a 21st century point of view.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that the books were not written to you.


Quote

Oh but they were written to me...and to you...and to everyone else that's living today!

In fact the angel of the Lord told Daniel in chapter 12 to close and seal up the book he had written until the time of the end, meaning that, Daniel's prophecies could not be understood until the time of the end.

We today are living at the time of the end.  
By looking back at America's history, especially over the past 50-60 years of America's history, we can correctly apply most of Daniel's prophecies to events which have occured in America.

Looking at an event which has ALREADY occured, and applying that event to a prophetic scripture, is how we're supposed to interpret those scriptures.  

Yet there are those, such as John Darby and preachers of the Reformation era who speculated, and came up with their own private interpretation of the prophetic scriptures.  They incidently are the very ones who invented "the Antichrist" fable.


The end of time was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in AD 70..... it was the end of the Jews favored status with God.

And the bible was written to 1st century Jews and must be understood within that context.

Daniels prophesies were fulfilled already and it is a huge mistake to think they were not... the bible warns us against doing what you are doing.

Not properly scoping terms used in the bible is a easy and uneducated mistake that most would be scholars make all the time.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 13:52:09 »
The endtime Babylon harlot of Revelation is definitely NOT America. It is a specific 'city' though:

Rev 17:18
18   And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

But it ain't Rome, nor New York, nor London, nor Mecca, nor Cairo, nor Bagdad...


Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(KJV)

Who remembers their Sunday School lessons? Where was our Lord Jesus crucified? At JERUSALEM! That is the "great city" our Lord Jesus is talking about there in those last chapters of Revelation. Because He used the labels of "Sodom" and "Egypt" to SPIRITUALLY describe its condition for the end, it means Jerusalem in a fallen condition away from Him.

Don't go away, for there's more to this than just involving the city of Jerusalem at the end of this world.

Did you notice there in Rev.11:9 that the nations will actually SEE the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street there? What technology has made that possilbe only in these last days? It's called satellite technology. All NATIONS will see that, which has to mean Christ's enemies are going to show camera footage of it. Those two witnesses which will be sent by God during the tribulation will be given the ability of miracles, much in the same commission as Elijah the prophet during the days of Jezebel and Ahab. And by that miracle working it will torment the deceived nations. That's why once the nations see their two dead bodies laying the street, they'll rejoice and give each other gifts and have a party. They will react differently when they see the bodies of those two saints resurrected right before their eyes later though on the third woe and 7th trumpet.


Per Rev.13:1-2 Christ told us of a beast coming up out of the 'sea', and in Rev.17:15 He defined what that "sea" represents with the idea of "waters". It means peoples, nations, tongues, and multitudes. In Rev.13:2 Christ COMPARED that first beast system to the beast world kingdoms of Daniel 7. That means the Rev.13:1 beast is a world kingdom, a system setup over ALL nations and peoples upon the earth.

It will be over ALL nations in the very end, not only Jerusalem. But Jerusalem will be the epicenter of it all, its headquarters, for Jerusalem is specifically where the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" shall make war against God's two witnesses, killing them, with their dead bodies left laying in the street (actually a plaza).

THERE ARE TWO BEASTS IN REVELATION 13. In Rev.13:11 forward, our Lord Jesus mentioned a second beast, which is a RELIGIOUS beast, associated with the "dragon" (Satan), and that he will cause the whole world to bow down in false worship (except those in Christ that will refuse). That "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is that "another beast" of the Rev.13:11 forward part of the chapter. It is an entity, the final Antichrist. THAT shows us WHERE to look for his appearance in the last days, in Jerusalem.

In order for ALL NATIONS to be joined into that first beast world kingdom system, it requires the leaders of ALL NATIONS to sign on board! So who is so blind today that they cannot see that nation joining in today's time? Our Heavenly Father has been very good to His which listen to Him in His Word and the many signs He's given in these last days, for right out of the mouths of those globalist leaders have come phrases like "New World Order" and "one world government"!

The fact that that joining of nations working is being planned and instrumented in other areas of the earth is so as to not point to Jerusalem, which IS their planned epicenter for their future one world government system. They have even labeled Jerusalem as "The International City of Peace" per their plans for it. I won't have to remind anyone of this when it comes to its full, for we all shall see it (if we don't first pass beforehand).

Moreover, if you don't understand what Satan's original rebellion was, let me remind you per Scripture. He rebelled against GOD by wanting to be GOD, and sit in the "sides of the north" (Isa.14; Ezek.28). That means upon GOD's Throne. And just WHERE did GOD say He has chosen to dwell forever? In JERUSALEM. This is also WHY Jerusalem will always be the CENTER of where the battle will take place. So the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 was not talking about Satan sitting in over some Church in New York city nor anywhere else but Jerusalem (2 Thess.2:3-4). Satan's rebellion against GOD was the very FIRST sin, and it will be the very LAST sin that ends this world. That's the idea the Apostle Paul is pulling together there in 2 Thessalonians 2. That's the "strong delusion" he was talking about for the very end of this world. And it will be upon many, because they'd rather listen to wizards and false prophets that God has allowed to creep in among His people, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PRUNING.



larry2

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Aug 18, 2009 - 14:06:12 »

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - Alright - Who were the four beasts, and when was the description of them complete in prophesy?

Watcher - To which scriptures are you referring?

larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

Quote
larry2 - What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that?

Quote
Watcher - I've been called a white supremacist many times, but it's only because my accusers cannot rightfully dispute my interpretation of the prophetic scriptures. 

larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Watcher - No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

larry 2 - I was only asking since you say you were accused of being a white supremacist. I meant no insult unless you were, and our debate would have ended here.

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry2


Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 05:13:05 »
Quote
larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
Quote
larry2 - Are you connected with any white supremacist group? As to disputing your contentions, I reckon I have many questions, and up to you to prove such doctrine you profess.

Watcher - No, I'm not connected with any "white supremacist group", and I consider that question an insult.

larry 2 - I was only asking since you say you were accused of being a white supremacist. I meant no insult unless you were, and our debate would have ended here.

While I'm NOT a racist and don't belong to any racist group, it's important to understand that end-time scriptures ARE in fact about race.
It's about the European Americans (the ten kings), and their mixing and mingling with that other people; (other ten horns)  mentioned in Dan.7:24, and in Rev.17:12,16.
You'll have to decide for yourselves whom that other ten horns are.

Because it involves race, this modern-day politically correct society will not believe the truth of end-time scriptures.
"They will not receive the love of the truth" as Paul stated in 11Thes.2.  In other words, "They'll hate the truth."




Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 05:42:44 »

Quote
The end of time was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in AD 70..... it was the end of the Jews favored status with God.

Where do you find in scriptures that "Jews" had favored status with God?, or that, "Judah" had favored status, or "the house of Judah" had favored status?

Quote
And the bible was written to 1st century Jews and must be understood within that context.

Are you sure it wasn't written to "the whole house of Israel"?

Quote
Daniels prophesies were fulfilled already and it is a huge mistake to think they were not... the bible warns us against doing what you are doing.

WOW!, Who's your mentor? 
Most would agree that Daniel's prophecies, as does Revelation, involves the time period or last generation preceeding the 2nd Coming of Christ.


Offline Johnb

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:08:21 »
Trying to tell God how He would fulfill His prophecies is what caused the Jews to reject Christ.  I think I will just let God work it out. ::tippinghat::

larry2

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:18:10 »

Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

Watcher - If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
larry2 - If you do not know who these different groups are that prophesy tells us of, how do you state that all prophesy is past?

larry2 - What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that? I repeated this since you didn't answer it.

I might also add: who is the woman that is hidden for three and one-half years during the tribulation in Revelation 12:6?

In Jesus' name - larry2


Amo

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:20:19 »
The Israel of the new covenant, and biblical prophecy in relation to the same, is the Church.

The Church is now the Israel of God.  Thus has she been given the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.



Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Again it is in a far superior way that the Church is betrothed to God in Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die.  

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God.  PRAISE GOD’S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.

Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.  Now all those who reject the same are none of His, and have no part of the kingdom of God or the gospel of the same, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.






Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 06:21:27 »
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."



Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


Quote
It will be over ALL nations in the very end, not only Jerusalem. But Jerusalem will be the epicenter of it all, its headquarters, for Jerusalem is specifically where the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" shall make war against God's two witnesses, killing them, with their dead bodies left laying in the street (actually a plaza).


The verse says that there dead bodies will lie in the streets of the "great city", which is the description of Babylon the great ie, AMERICA in Rev.17:18.




Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:23:35 »
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."

Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


My KJV Bible clearly defines JERUSALEM as Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, BECAUSE, the Rev.11:8 verse is specifically talking about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified!

That means Christ's LITERAL crucifixion in Jerusalem per history. The word "spiritual" does not occur in that phrase, "where also our Lord was crucified".

For what you say to be true, our Lord Jesus would have to have been LITERALLY crucified in the Americas! That's a silly knucklehead idea, a lot different than being rude. I can't imagine what kind of bible you might be using, evidently not one at all.

JERUSALEM is where the final battle of this world age will take place. It is also where the strongest work of deceptive idol worship is going to occur in the near future. Jerusalem has been taken by God's enemies many times in history when false worship was setup there as a result (something like 27 times per history).

So tell me, where are you really from, and why do you hate America? Are you a Communist, or one of radical Islam, etc.?



Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:45:35 »

by watcher,
Quote
I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Sorry, but wrong. Babylon in Revelation IS 1st century Jerusalem. It's not even debatable anymore. Preterist scholars have proven with Scripture & history that all things that were written, were fulfilled in the 1st century AD.
You are invited to begin studying the proper pov. I have for yrs. And sorry, but it puts futuristic pov to shame.
Luke 21:20-22 should open your eyes at least to fulfilled prophecy.

Eschatology must not be your forte'. Until the current church adapts the proper "orthodoxy" regarding only inspired Scripture (& not uninspired church fathers who think they made orthodoxy when it comes to eschatology) We will denounce their agenda & fiction.
Your mentor must be the apologetic uninspired church fathers, who were scoffed at (& will continue to be scoffed at) bc they couldn't admit eschatological fulfillment. Their "agenda" wouldn't allow them. But at the same time, they made & make Jesus & the apostles to appear as liars in regard to Jesus' & the disciples prophecies.

My pleasure to try to answer any questions you have, according to the preterist paradigm.

Amo, i agree. The N.T. church became the Israel of God. The Hebrew Christian church from the 1st century became one in Christ. And God officially called the Jewish people by another name= Christians.(Isa.65).
There are Messianic Jews though, & that's understood as the same as Christian name. James was more like a Messianic Jew. But that's fine. Those Jews keep their Jewish culture, yet believe in the Messiah, which was & is- Jesus.



Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 07:52:58 »
Good witness Amo!

When Christ came He ended the Old Covenant. And to prove it, the sacrifices in a Jerusalem temple has never been instituted again since the first century after Christ's death on the cross.

For those who haven't read the works of the 100 A.D. Jewish historian Josephus, even a son of David upon a throne in Jerusalem ended with Zedekiah in Jeremiah the prophet's day, and never to be setup there again. Most of the later kings in Jerusalem were of the nations, the Idumeans (from Esau), like the Herods.

For those who understand God's Promises to His people, the majority of those Promises were removed from that area after Christ came to die on the cross and the Jews refused the Kingdom then. In Matthew 21 our Lord Jesus said His 'vineyard' would be given to other servants, to another "nation", and they would bear forth fruit. Where should one then look for His vineyard after He was rejected in Jerusalem?

God's Promises have been found among the western Christian nations after Christ's death on the cross. That's also where God scattered many Israelites, maybe even the majority of Israelites from all twelve tribes.

It is those believing Israelites and believing Gentiles on The Savior Jesus Christ, called Christians, that have since made up God's Church, the congregation of His People by the New Covenant.

Yet God did promise His servant David that He would always leave one tribe of Israel in Jerusalem for his sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That remnant of Israel is a small remnant of the Jews ("house of Judah") that returned from the Babylon captivity. They are still there in Jerusalem today fulfilling that Promise by God.

Per Ezekiel 37, 47-48, a remnant of all twelve tribes of Israel will return to Jerusalem to their old inheritences of the land. And the symbolic tent will be enlarged to include the believing Gentiles with them (Isa.54). This is how Christ is to inherit the Gentiles per the Book of Isaiah. Today's nation state of Israel involves a very small portion of land compared to how many of Israel were originally spread out there in David's day. That's a major sign showing God has not gathered both houses back together to the Holy Land yet.

That time of gathering of the two sticks in Ezek.37 is what the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus is about. Both Israel and Gentiles as Christ's Body will be gathered there together at Christ's second coming in the near future. That's what The Bible teaches. That's why the Apostle Paul taught that Gentiles who believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2). A commonwealth can include peoples from anywhere on the earth.



Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 09:19:27 »
Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ used the label "Babylon" especially about the fallen state of  JERUSALEM in the last days just prior to His second coming.

I don't mean to sound rude but, based on the descriptions given of Babylon the great in Rev.17 and 18, there ant' NO WAY that it's JERUSALEM.

Rev.17:11 says of end-time Babylon:  And the beast (Babylon) that was and is not, even he  is the eighth, and is of the seven (of the seven continents) and goeth into perdition."

Quote
Here Christ gives John to write about God's "two witnesses" that are to prophesy for 1260 days during the coming great tribulation that will come upon all that dwell on this earth:

Rev 11:7-9
7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.


My KJV Bible clearly defines JERUSALEM as Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, BECAUSE, the Rev.11:8 verse is specifically talking about the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified!

That means Christ's LITERAL crucifixion in Jerusalem per history. The word "spiritual" does not occur in that phrase, "where also our Lord was crucified".

For what you say to be true, our Lord Jesus would have to have been LITERALLY crucified in the Americas! That's a silly knucklehead idea, a lot different than being rude. I can't imagine what kind of bible you might be using, evidently not one at all.

JERUSALEM is where the final battle of this world age will take place. It is also where the strongest work of deceptive idol worship is going to occur in the near future. Jerusalem has been taken by God's enemies many times in history when false worship was setup there as a result (something like 27 times per history).

So tell me, where are you really from, and why do you hate America? Are you a Communist, or one of radical Islam, etc.?





Nope, I'm not a Communist, not one of radical Islam, not a skinhead, and not a member of the KKK.

I'm a European American....a 63 year-old grandmother who's been studying the prophetic scriptures for some 40 years.

I don't hate America.  I must however tell the truth about our nation based on what the scriptures say about it.

Those scriptures (Daniel and Revelation) describe that nation wherein Paul said in 11Thes.2, the falling away would occur and the man of lawlessness exalted and revealed.

John described that nation or "great city"  as Babylon the great.

Daniel described it as a little horn that waxed exceeding great.

Jesus described it as the holy place or "Christian place" in Matt.24:15.

And in 11Thes.2 Paul described it as the temple of God or nation wherein are Christian Churches and Christian people.

It is "the great City" Babylon (America) wherein the two witnesses will be murdered by the man of lawlessness.

Notice what the scripture says,

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of "the great city" (Babylon/America), which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was (spiritually) crucified."

If you don't believe that America has spiritually crucified Christ over the last half of this century, then you surely don't know America's history.








Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 10:29:37 »
by dp,
Quote
Yet God did promise His servant David that He would always leave one tribe of Israel in Jerusalem for his sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That remnant of Israel is a small remnant of the Jews ("house of Judah") that returned from the Babylon captivity. They are still there in Jerusalem today fulfilling that Promise by God.

Per Ezekiel 37, 47-48, a remnant of all twelve tribes of Israel will return to Jerusalem to their old inheritences of the land. And the symbolic tent will be enlarged to include the believing Gentiles with them (Isa.54). This is how Christ is to inherit the Gentiles per the Book of Isaiah. Today's nation state of Israel involves a very small portion of land compared to how many of Israel were originally spread out there in David's day. That's a major sign showing God has not gathered both houses back together to the Holy Land yet.

That time of gathering of the two sticks in Ezek.37 is what the gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus is about. Both Israel and Gentiles as Christ's Body will be gathered there together at Christ's second coming in the near future. That's what The Bible teaches. That's why the Apostle Paul taught that Gentiles who believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2). A commonwealth can include peoples from anywhere on the earth.

This is where you go wrong. This is what leads to Replacement theology instead of Covenant theology. As soon as you drag this into the future. All the genealogies of the Jewish people ended with Christ.
The church did not replace Israel in God's program. In Christ, the Old Covenant promises TO Israel were fulfilled. The remnant of Israel can be seen in the apostles, especially. The oracles, the promises, the Scriptures were all given to Israel. Gentiles followed. The 1st century church became Jew & Gentile in Christ.
Christ is the King on David's throne. And i assure you that is in the spiritual New Jerusalem today. Earthly Jerusalem "was raised up"  Mt. Zion is not in physical, national Israel- hasn't been since God left the temple in AD70.
Salvation is from the Jews- & this began & ended with Christ.
Judah & Ephraim were already made "one" in God's program. James even writes to the 12 tribes that didn't return to Jerusalem post-exile. The remnant, as Paul said "there is a remnant at the present time" ( Romans 11:5, still in Old Covenant but being Mediated & soon to pass away) & "the age or world to come- to come 'SOON' or future to Paul's writing of Romans (approx.56-58AD) And Paul warned about futile & endless discussions about genealogies during & after he was gone to Timothy.
And Jacob's last words to his sons, what would befall in Israel's last days (Gen49:10-11):
 10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
      Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
      Until Shiloh comes;
      And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

 11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
      And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
      He washed his garments in wine,
      And his clothes in the blood of grapes.


And of course, Judah returned to Israel after the exile. And it's for certain that "Shiloh" was another name for the Messiah.
Jesus was Israel's "Sun of Righteousness, with healing in His wings" (Malachi 4) And on those who didn't believe- God cursed- destroyed them, their city & their temple in AD70- by "little horn" or Vespasian namely, & his son Titus.
Right then & there Daniel 7 is fulfilled. The saints inherited the kingdom of God. Christ was the end of the Law- but He fulfilled the promises to the faithful OT saints & righteous remnant in the same 40 yrs. the faithful of Israel brought in the Gentiles to be part of the true vine, by adoption. To the Jew 1st, then also to the Greek or Gentile.

So, this has all taken place already.

When Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father, He became King went He went to heaven & ruled over the 12 tribes (Mt.19:28; Luke 22:30) for 40 yrs.- just like David did in the OT.

The apostles were "on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel" during the 40 yrs of missionary service.

Yes, the thousand yrs. begins from history or a retrospective sense from John in Rev20. (his historical perspective is also seen in Rev.12)

From David & his mighty men to Christ & His apostles is represented figuratively by "a thousand yrs." 

It was during the great tribulation of the Jewish people- that Christ took His great power & put all the churches enemies (which were those still enforcing Judaism- the thorn in the flesh) He put them under His feet. Christianity no longer had to compete with Judaism. The mystery was complete in the 1st century.

Shiloh definitely came to Israel, then to the Gentiles.

The fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was the visible demonstration that God kept His promises, & there was no longer any need for the old "City of God."

by watcher,
Quote
Modern-day AMERICA can certainly be described as "Sodom and Egypt.  In addition it is definitely the nation which has spiritually crucified Christ.
You can call your country anything you like. The better attitude is to pray for this country, our economy, for our military & those on our side, pray for our leaders, even pray for America's Christians & spiritual state of its lost citizens.

But "America" is not in the Bible. When you can prove it there in Scripture, you will have credibility when it comes to understanding prophecy. Until then, my friend, i'm afraid it's just your imagination - which to me, has nothing fruitful to give-  I do not share in your doomsday predictions.

Abraham's SEED was to REMAIN. It was the "end of all things" (i.e. the Law & Old Covenant) Not the end of the world! 

It was good to be "left behind" like Noah & fam.  So were the Hebrew Christians would were temporally "saved" by quitting the city & not being killed in the great tribulation.

And to those that were waiting for Him, He appeared a second time, not for sin (He did that on 1st advent) but for their SALVATION! (Heb.9:28).


Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 13:09:20 »


Quote
But "America" is not in the Bible. When you can prove it there in Scripture, you will have credibility when it comes to understanding prophecy. Until then, my friend, i'm afraid it's just your imagination - which to me, has nothing fruitful to give-  I do not share in your doomsday predictions.

Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?



Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 16:34:10 »

by watcher,
Quote
Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
Yes.
Quote
You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?
No.
God has (past tense) judged Israel.

America's not in the Bible.

But i believe God judges now in the general sense.


Offline gospel

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 16:49:27 »
Quote
While I'm NOT a racist and don't belong to any racist group, it's important to understand that end-time scriptures ARE in fact about race.
It's about the European Americans (the ten kings), and their mixing and mingling with that other people; (other ten horns)  mentioned in Dan.7:24, and in Rev.17:12,16.
You'll have to decide for yourselves whom that other ten horns are.

Because it involves race, this modern-day politically correct society will not believe the truth of end-time scriptures.
"They will not receive the love of the truth" as Paul stated in 11Thes.2.  In other words, "They'll hate the truth."


Sounds like somebody has been reading the Anglo Saxon Chronicles or something like it

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 21:14:35 »
Here is some replacement theology.

Matt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.





Amo

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 21, 2009 - 21:21:12 »
Who are Christians?  Are the Jews still God’s people?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Only those Jews who,

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 03:24:18 »
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Watcher - ALL THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES have been fulfilled.

larry2 - The four beasts are referred throughout Revelation in their heavenly ministry. Who are they, and as you state that all prophesy has been fulfilled, where do we see them in history?

I've already stated that I don't know who the four beasts are "in their heavenly ministry".   Perhaps you can tell me?
It's hard enough to interpret whom the earthly beasts represent in prophecy, let alone the beasts which John saw around the trone of God in the heavenlies.

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Watcher - If you're talking about the four beasts around the thrown of God in Rev.4:6, which John saw when he was caught up to heaven, I don't have the slightest idea whom they represent.
 
larry2 - If you do not know who these different groups are that prophesy tells us of, how do you state that all prophesy is past?

Once again, If you know whom the 4 heavenly beasts represent, then pray tell, who are they?

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larry2 - What of the "Man Child?"

Watcher - Christ

larry2 - How do you come to that conclusion? What teaching has brought you to that? I repeated this since you didn't answer it.


I interpret "the woman" in Rev.12 as being "the house of Israel" from which Christ was born.  I came to that conclusion by studying the BIBLE, and whom it is that represents "the woman" in the BIBLE.

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I might also add: who is the woman that is hidden for three and one-half years during the tribulation in Revelation 12:6?

Again, "the woman" represents the tribes of Israel.



Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 03:43:36 »

by watcher,
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Then I take it you believe that the tiny nation of Israel is the one described in Rev.17:18 as, "the great city Babylon which riegns over the kings of the earth", and that, when it's burning to the ground, as described in Rev.18, the kings of the earth standing afar off are going to weep and mourn, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Israel, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
Yes.
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You believe that God is going to judge Israel instead of America?
No.
God has (past tense) judged Israel.

America's not in the Bible.

But i believe God judges now in the general sense.



No offence but, me thinks you're delusional.

If one believes that Israel is Babylon the great as it's described in Rev.17 and 18, then one has to believe that sometime in the future Israel will experience the one hour judgment spoken of in verse 10 of Rev.18.

Babylon's judgement is a future event which happens just before the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Read about it in Rev.19:2

Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 07:46:56 »
by watcher,
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No offence but, me thinks you're delusional.
Straight from the mouth of a spoon-fed Christian. I'm not interested in what you think. I'm interested in what you know. See, i've upped the ante in your game.

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If one believes that Israel is Babylon the great as it's described in Rev.17 and 18, then one has to believe that sometime in the future Israel will experience the one hour judgment spoken of in verse 10 of Rev.18.

Babylon's judgement is a future event which happens just before the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Read about it in Rev.19:2

Not in the future. The great tribulation on the Jewish people during the Roman/Jewish war took place in AD67-70.
The "one hour" phrase is not hyperliteral.  The wording was used before. Jesus said to Philadelphia church they were to be kept from "the hour of trial," "No one knew the day or hour," in John's gospel, he said "this is the last hour."  "No man knows when his hour will come." (Ecc.9:12)
It's a somewhat elastic term. It is the same as "the day of the Lord."  It was a time of judgment on the guilty nation as Jesus forewarned would come upon that generation- meaning His contemporaries. The saints were to look for the "signs" of the time of the end.
Luke 19:42-44,
42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.