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Author Topic: America or Israel?  (Read 12078 times)

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Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:05:55 »

Nope, I'm not a Communist, not one of radical Islam, not a skinhead, and not a member of the KKK.

That's good, neither am I. Yet if you'll read the retired FBI agent Cleon Skousen's work, The Naked Communist he wrote in 1958, outlining world Communist strategy for takeover of the west, you'll discover a plan to cause the degradation of America. He listed 45 points in that Soviet long-range plan, and one of them even involved the promotion of meaningless art. So it should be no surprise that there has been underground movements by America's enemies to cause today's political correctness philosophy which is nothng more than tenets of Communist socialism, ideas being used to destroy the Christian foundations of America. The Christian nations of today's Europe have also been under that same attack. But if one went to every small town in today's United States, they'd find God-fearing Christians are still in the majority in America. The overthrow is being instituted by a small group of traitors and subversives that deceive. God is allowing them that power for a reason in the last days. When He comes, the whole world will know our enemies will have been defeated by Him only, and not by us. That's why we must be weakened in prep for that, so that even the enemy will know that He is GOD (Ezek.38-39).

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I'm a European American....a 63 year-old grandmother who's been studying the prophetic scriptures for some 40 years.

I'm a European-American also, and I love my country, and even volunteered during the Vietnam War to serve my country when others of my era were busy sucking (or dope smoking) in the lies of the enemey with the hippie peace-love-dove movement which was but a mask for socialist doctrines by the enemy. Lot of those hippies burned the American flag, spit on our troops returning back from Vietnam, disrespected their own parents and families, and some of them even waved the enemy North Vietnamese flag in their false'peace' rallies that the enemy's infiltraitors instituted. Some of the tax-exempt foundations were even discovered supporting anti-American movements to futher propaganda from America's enemies (see Reese Committee).

But it seems like in all your years of Bible study you've somehow missed God's prophecies about how Christ's enemies would be given power over His people in the last days. So just because someone has studied The Bible for a long time, it doesn't mean they got it all right.

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I don't hate America.  I must however tell the truth about our nation based on what the scriptures say about it.

And I say you have listened to other sources outside The Bible to modify what The Bible really says on these things. The idea that America is the endtime Babylon is a foreign idea.

Quote
Those scriptures (Daniel and Revelation) describe that nation wherein Paul said in 11Thes.2, the falling away would occur and the man of lawlessness exalted and revealed.

Yeah, and the area Daniel was writing about that links with the events of Revelation 11:8 was specifically about Jerusalem (Dan.9-24-25).

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John described that nation or "great city"  as Babylon the great.

The beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit in Rev.17:8 is the same one of Rev.11 that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses", which in Rev.11:8 we are told that is in Jerusalem, because that's where our Lord Jesus was crucified. That again makes the Rev.17 Babylon harlot link to Jerusalem.

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Daniel described it as a little horn that waxed exceeding great.

Again, the area for that prophecy as given in the latter part of Dan.9 is Jerusalem, not America. The idea that America is the Revelation Babyon harlot does not originate from The Bible.

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Jesus described it as the holy place or "Christian place" in Matt.24:15.

And in 11Thes.2 Paul described it as the temple of God or nation wherein are Christian Churches and Christian people.

The area my Lord Jesus was describing was Jerusalem. He and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives when they asked Him what the signs of the end of the world would be, and when. The "holy place" per Bible history refers to the heart of the Temple in Jerusalem. That's what He and His disciples there on the Mount of Olives were looking at when He gave the "abomination of desolation" prophetic link to the Book of Daniel.

The great falling away the apostle Paul spoke about also involves a false one inside the Temple at Jerusalem, for Paul was giving the same Message Christ did in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about events to occur upon Jerusalem. 2 Thess.2:3-4 is specifically about a false one sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That's the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel.

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It is "the great City" Babylon (America) wherein the two witnesses will be murdered by the man of lawlessness.

That interpretation is OUTSIDE the Scripture. It is not written about America, but about Jerusalem as I've already shown. The area where Christ was crucified, which was literal Jerusalem, is where Revelation is speaking about. That last phrase of Rev.11:8 seals God's Word that Jerusalem is being talked about, and not any other area on earth.

Your attempt at throwing out a continual 'affirmation' like America is the endtime Babylon will fool no one who stays within the parameters of God's Word. For you have left those parameters.

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:05:55 »

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:40:52 »
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.


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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 13:40:52 »

Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:28:47 »
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.

Oh well, have it your way. Your self-fulfilling prophecy. You reap what you sow!

         

                 

Offline stevehut

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:38:19 »
Alright, maybe I'm the idiot here, but...

I don't understand why any of this matters.  I just want to make it to heaven and take as many people with me as I can.

Why is this important?

Steve   ::saint::

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:38:19 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Amo

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:55:06 »
Quote
Alright, maybe I'm the idiot here, but...

I don't understand why any of this matters.  I just want to make it to heaven and take as many people with me as I can.

Why is this important?

The only stupid question, is the one we won't ask, for we will never receive an answer for the same.

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

CHAPTER 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.






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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:55:06 »



Offline stevehut

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 17:57:21 »
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.   ::shrug::

Amo

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #41 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:17:03 »
Quote
Another good witness Amo!

"Replacement theology"? That's another one of those terms the seminarists devised isn't it, like Preterism? Those kind of labels serves as tethers of the doctrines of men. (I know why you said it Amo, no need to explain).

The idea that Revelation has been fulfilled already is also an OUTSIDE The Bible interpretation some have tried to apply to God's Word. It's very easy to counter.

The Rev.11 event of God's "two witnesses" has never been recorded in history, nor has Christ's second coming which The Bible shows in many Scriptures is LITERAL. Those who think those events happened back in the 1st century A.D. are about 2,009+ years behind in understanding God's prophecies as written in His Word The Bible.

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

And what are we seeing happen in the world today? The attempt to join all nations into a "one world government" (not my term, theirs). Another word for that is 'globalism', or "New World Order". The financial economies of the world are already linked. Only a very few nations have refused to get on board that train. This is why much of America's wealth has been going overseas. Educational systems are also linked in many of today's nations. United Nations International law and court system is taking over the final rule over nations.

In other words, one would have to be truly deceived to not see that one-world working by today's globalists. I've known about that "one world government"strategy since the late 1970's. American leaders can be found speaking about it going all the back to Woodrow Wilson's administration. Wilson even used the term "New World Order". His White House aid Mandel House was also an internationalist and was on that plan.

So the signs have been around for a long time, even before most of us here were born.

As long as this kind of nation joining to form a one world government takes place, it proves the prophecy about the first beast of Rev.13 being in process of fulfillment.

It defintely does NOT mean past history, because the one of Rev.13:1 is to be the very last world kingdom on the earth. The only way this one happenning today would not be the one of Rev.13:1 is if this one today fails, and another begins at a yet future time to us.

I agree, that the book of Revelation is a continuation of the prophecies of the book of Daniel for the new covenant era.  The four beasts of Daniel, are followed by three more in the book of Revelation.  The first beast of Rev. 13, is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy.  It should be noticed however, that it is not spoken of in global terms, until the deadly wound which it received, is healed.  Observation reveals that it is the second beast of Rev. 13 that aids it in healing.  It is at this time, that it becomes global in nature.  Which very events we are witnessing with our own eyes.

The result of this healing of the first beast with the aid of the second beast, results in the third and final beast of biblical prophecy.  The global beast, whose demands bring the entire world to the point of decision regarding the worship of God or otherwise, will ripen the harvests for Christ's return to reap the same.  These things will happen only because God has foretold them, and not because of any power by anybody or anything apart from God and His complete controle of all things, at all times.  Frightful as they may seem to the non believer, the child of God has nothing to fear, for death itself has already been conquered by their King.  For He is King of kings, and Lord of Lords.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.





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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #42 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:30:10 »
Quote
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.

There is the truth which came, and continues to come to us through Jesus Christ.  Then there is the lie, which came, and continues to come to us through the fallen one.  The struggle between the two will not end, until Christ returns to end all disputes.  Until then, the servants must serve their masters.


Offline stevehut

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #43 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 18:36:19 »
Amo, what is the lie? 

Still not keeping up here...

Steve   ::smile::

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #44 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 19:29:38 »
Quote
Amo, what is the lie? 

Still not keeping up here...

Steve   


Well for us, it started in the garden of course.  God said eating of a certain tree would cause death.  Satan said it would not.  It has been going on ever since.  The truth is what Jesus taught.  The lie is everything else which contradicts the same.

Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #45 on: Sat Aug 22, 2009 - 19:36:28 »
Quote
Amo, can you break it down to a sentence or two for me?  I'm lost here.

There is the truth which came, and continues to come to us through Jesus Christ.  Then there is the lie, which came, and continues to come to us through the fallen one.  The struggle between the two will not end, until Christ returns to end all disputes.  Until then, the servants must serve their masters.





I wouldn't care to love a god that would have that kind of a plan for the salvation of mankind. Who would say one thing & do another. Who would say He "destroyed the works of the devil" yet still allowed demons or evil spirits or satan to taunt us? People can imitate satan, but there's no literal satan.

I think Luke 1:67-80 explains the timing as well as the purpose of Jesus to Israel. "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son." (Gal.4:4).


Zacharias’ Prophecy
   
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
       68 “ Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
      For He has visited and redeemed His people,
       69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
      In the house of His servant David,
       70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
      Who have been since the world began,
       71 That we should be saved from our enemies
      And from the hand of all who hate us,
       72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
      And to remember His holy covenant,
       73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
       74 To grant us that we,
      Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
      Might serve Him without fear,
       75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
       76 “ And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
      For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
       77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
      By the remission of their sins,
       78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
      With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
       79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
      To guide our feet into the way of peace.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #46 on: Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 03:29:50 »
There is no devil? That certainly denies a lot of God's written Word then...

1 Pet 5:8
8   Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(KJV)

James 4:7
7   Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(KJV)

You mean all this time Peter and James were telling us to resist OURSELVES and not a literal entity called the devil? When following God, and the devil flees away from us, do we flee from ourselves? Where do our selves go?! Sounds idiotic doesn't it?

It should, because the devil is a real entity... a cherub...

Ezek 28:12-19
12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Was the historical king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden? No, of course not. But the devil was, and that's who God is talking about here, for a cherub is a heavenly being, not a flesh man.

14   Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15   Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The anointed cherub that covereth! That's what the devil's lofty position originally was when God created him, and before he rebelled against God.

16   By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17   Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

God says that cherub (the devil) will be seen laid before kings. How can a non-entity be seen if the he isn't real?

18   Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19   All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)


The idea that there is no literal devil called Satan is actually an ancient eastern religious idea. I've even heard some in the Church of Satan claim there is no literal devil. Why do they chose the name Satan for their Church then?

Because they've lost their senses and don't know the difference between going and coming. That's evidence the devil has done his work upon those deceivers very well.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #47 on: Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 05:00:42 »
I'm not willing to let the seminarists rule here with their tethers about God's Israel.

How many realize per God's Word that only a small portion of Israelites were actually known as Jews? The Jewish historian Josephus said the name 'Jew' was first used by the small remnant of the 'house of Judah' which returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity to Babylon. The Book of Ezra gives just which Israelites those were, only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some of Levi. None of the other tribes are mentioned by Ezra as returning to Jerusalem.

The reason is because the MAJORITY of Israel had already been taken captive by the king of Assyria north of Babylon about 120 years prior to the Jews' captivity to Babylon. God said He would scatter Israel if they fell away from Him. That's what He did to the ten tribed kingdom called the "house of Israel" in His Word. They made up the majority of Israelites.

This means if Josephus was correct, none of those other tribes of the "house of Israel" went by the name Jew. That name comes from the sole tribe of Judah anyway. Right after Solomon's days, God caused Israel to be split into two separate Israelite kingdoms. The "house of Judah" was made up of two tribes at Jerusalem (eventually Levi also since the king of Israel in the north wouldn't allow them to do their priestly duties). The other tribes, ten specifically, dwelt in the northern lands and made up the "house of Israel", their capital city being Samaria. The two houses then began warring against each other soon after that split. This history is written starting in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, and it's an easy read.

The Book of Hosea gives a prophecy about the house of Israel (ten tribes) of how God would scatter them so they could get the full of their Baal worship they had fallen into. He then called them 'Loammi', or 'not My people'. God divorced the ten tribes of the house of Israel. He said they would become as many as the sands of the sea which can't be numbered. Then God said in the place where the ten tribes were called 'Loammi', He would then say to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God" (Hos.1:10).

What connection does that have with the Christian west? Much!

Rom 9:22-26
22   What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23   And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24   Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25   As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26   And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)

Paul is quoting directly from that passage in the Book of Hosea. Paul was overseer of the Churches in Asia. In the Hosea prophecy, God is not saying He was going to cast the ten tribes away forever, for this is about the ten tribes of Israel too, along with believing Gentiles under Christ. It points to this being fulfilled in the Christian west, the very Churches which Paul was made overseer of.

1 Pet 2:9-10
9   But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
10   Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
(KJV)

Then there's Peter saying the same thing, also quoting the Hosea prophecy about the ten tribes of Israel that were lost, joining under Christ along with Gentiles.

And if this majority of the people of old Israel weren't known by the name Jew like Josephus reveals, then who are they as scattered among the Gentiles among the Churches of Asia Minor?

At this time the two 'houses' of Israel which God split after Solomon's day is still not joined together as one under Christ Jesus. The Ezekiel 37 prophecy about the joining of the 'two sticks' of Israel is still future for when Christ returns.

The Jews did not lose their heritage as Israel, but the ten tribes did (but not to God; He knows where He scattered them). So it is gross error to think that only those calling themselves Jews today are the only ones some call national Israel, or flesh Israel I like to say. The Jewish historian of 100 A.D. also said in his day the ten tribes were still... scattered abroad, and were a great number of people, too many to be numbered. Now he wasn't talking about Jews, for he declared who the Jews were, the returning remnant to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. Josephus was not contradicting himself; he knew what he was saying. The ten tribes were never a part of the 70 years Babylon captivity.

This means we cannot separate God's Israel, nor believing flesh Israel apart from Christ's Church. For in reality, many of the ten lost tribes were scattered to the Asia Minor among the Churches where Paul was overseer. It was the majority of the ten tribes in the west that accepted Christ Jesus.


Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #48 on: Sun Aug 23, 2009 - 09:14:36 »
by dp,
Quote
This means we cannot separate God's Israel, nor believing flesh Israel apart from Christ's Church. For in reality, many of the ten lost tribes were scattered to the Asia Minor among the Churches where Paul was overseer. It was the majority of the ten tribes in the west that accepted Christ Jesus.

Again, all Jewish genealogies end with Christ. The records were destroyed from Herod's temple during the war. Jew & Gentile became one in Christ.
Paul told Timothy & Titus to beware of useless genealogies & endless Jewish fables.

God made Ephraim & Judah one stick in the last days of Israel. The end of the age came for the Jewish dispensation when God left the building, the temple made with hands, in AD70. There is not Jew or Gentile but only the new man in Christ.

The church is the new creation made in the image & likeness of God. The surpassing greatness of the New Jerusalem, freed from the decay & defilements of the flesh & veiled glory of the law- was the city coming down from heaven shown to John in Revelation from God.
The glory of the 1st covenant was temporal & transitory. The glory of the New Covenant is heavenly & eternal (2Cor.3:7-8).
The glory of the 1st covenant was veiled beneath the types & shadows of the law (2Cor.3:13; Heb.10:1).
Man saw through a glass darkly- the types & shadows of the Mosaic law only dimly reflected God's purpose.
However, in Christ, the veil is taken away & we behold the glory of the Lord in the open (unveiled) face of Christ.(2Cor.3:12-18).
What was perceived only darkly through the veil of types & shadows under the former dispensation )prior to AD70 or the Mosaic disp.) - we NOW behold clearly, face to face in Christ. (Rev.21).

Rev.21:12,
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The church had been, as it were, homeless, naked, & defenseless- wasted & scattered by those that persecuted her children. Now all that had changed (2,000 yrs. ago- at the end of thee Old Covenant) Their persecutors have been destroyed & the saints of God are gathered together safely behind the walls of the New Jerusalem.
The Hebrew writer spoke to the nakedness & homelessness of the saints preceding the advent of the New Jerusalem when he said, "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come." (Heb.13:14).
Believing Jews were urged to endure hardships & inconveniences of a people with no certain dwelling place, looking to Abraham as an example of faith & perseverance. (Heb.11:8-16).
The patriarchs had all died without inheriting the promised city & redemption- but the 1st century church were they upon whom the ends of the ages were come- they would inherit the city whose builder & maker is God.
The walled city John saw descending was to strengthen the church during the period that lay ahead for them, through the assurance that their continuing habitation was near at hand. It is a spiritual city, & hence, its walls provide spiritual security to all who make God their dwelling place & Christ their abode.
The earthly Jerusalem was enclosed with walls of stone & mortar, her several gates guarded by watchmen & towers. The heavenly Jerusalem is enclosed by spiritual munitions, her gates guarded by angels. The angels may represent the apostles standing guard over the church's doctrine & teaching, by which men gain entrance to the city. The 12 gates bear the names if the tribes of the children of Israel, showing that it is the habitation of the spiritual Israel of God.

The 1st covenant was marked by particularism- the New is marked by universalism. The gospel call is for all men.

Rev.21:14,
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul described the church as a city & temple "built on the foundation of the apostles & prophets." (Eph.2:19-22). Christ is the church's one true foundation: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Cor.3:11).
Hence, the wall's 12 foundations bear the name of Christ's apostles, showing that the spiritual habitation of the just is encompassed within the teaching of those commissioned by Christ to build His church. "For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation." (1 Cor.3:9-10).

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Israel! This had to do with Old Covenant Israel. God had left the temple & terminated His Biblical & theocratic relationship with national Israel for all times, as predicted in Deuteronomy, in AD70. Christianity superseded Judaism in God's program.



Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 03:03:28 »
Don't listen to those false Jews brethren that want to hide what God's Word says about the MAJORITY of His people of the lost ten tribes of Israel, for the ten tribes of Israel are only lost to man and man's reckoning, not God's reckoning per His Word.

Amos 9:8-9
8   Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9   For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
(KJV)

God has not lost those whom He did foreknow. The "house of Jacob" represents all twelve tribes of Israel, but the "house of Israel" there specifically represents only the lost ten tribes of Israel, not Judah, not Benjamin, and not Levi.

This is NOT what the Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Timonthy 1 with the idea of "fables" he mentioned, which is Greek 'muthos' meaning a 'myth'. This is not a myth, it is part of God's Word. Neither is this about the idea of endless geneaolgies, because God has promised to restore Israel, and that means national Israel, the seed, even though many of them that refuse Christ will be cutoff. This is WHY in the Ezekiel 48 chapter is listed the inheritances of the twelves tribes of Israel, and also why our Lord Jesus told His Apostles that in the world to come they each would sit upon a throne ruling over one of the twelves tribes of Israel.

In Ezekiel 37 God gave the prophecy of two 'sticks'. He told Ezekiel to write on one stick "For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." (Ezek.37:16).

Then God told Ezekiel to join the two sticks together in his hand, and let the people see him do it. And when the people ask what does this mean, God told Ezekiel to say this to them:

Ezek 37:19-22
19   Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20   And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21   And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22   And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
(KJV)

If you continue to read the rest of that prophecy there in Ezekiel 37, you'll find it is set for the future of God's Kingdom of the world to come under Christ Jesus. That joining of the two sticks has not happened yet today.

But false Jews that have crept in unaware will lie and say that prophecy from God's Word is false. They will deny that very prophecy as written there in Ezekiel 37, and even call it a myth ("fables") and an endless genealogy when Paul was actually talking about the false myths and traditions which the Jewish Pharisee system had devised over the people! The reason they want you to deny that prophecy is because they want to claim God's Kingdom for themselves, and want to omit the largest part of the seed of Israel, the ten tribes of Israel called the "house of Israel" after Solomon's days.

For many years now the Jews have been trying to claim to be the sole existing branch of the seed of Israel. That's a big lie by the false Jews, because even devout Jewish rabbi have well recognized the scattering of the lost ten tribes of Israel, and their eventual reestablishing back into the nation when God's future Kingdom comes under The Messiah (Christ Jesus to us Christians).

DIVISION OF EAST AND WEST

It's not by chance the most blessed nations on earth since Christ came have been the Christian nations, most of them in the West. It's not by chance that even when eastern peoples accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Christ's ambassodors that they became blessed also! It's not coencidence that the non-believing leaders of the east have sought to attack the Christian west. The Christian west is where that "nation" is which Christ spoke of in the parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21. That's the areas of the earth which has become the spring-board for The Gospel going out to other nations in the world.

It's not by chance that the Christian west has held power over the going and coming of its enemies on earth (ruling the gates of their enemies, one of God's Promises to the seed of Israel).

It's not by chance that the Christian west has historically been able to produce much more food that it can consume (the blessing of plenty of corn and wine, what used to be called 'the horn of plenty' in America).

It's not by chance that the Christian west has had divinely appointed kings and queens upon thrones while not one king of Judah has ever ruled upon a throne in Jerusalem after the prophet Jeremiah's day (Zedekiah was the last king of Judah to rule in Jerusalem). Anyone who studies about God's promises to Israel in His Word will discover those promises established in the Christian west and its commonwealth nations since Christ crucified was preached there.

Even today, the genealogies of the kings and queens of European royalty is a requirement for heirs to those thrones, and that's under CHRISTIAN RULE, established under CHRIST JESUS, as those on the throne are even named DEFENDER OF THE FAITH. (See original KJV Letter to King James and The Reader). So don't let anyone tell you that's about endless genealogies and fables, for they lie.

Solomon fell away from God, and loved many women of the nations, and allowed them to bring in their false idols and pagan traditions into Israel, deceiving the people. God split the twelve tribes for that reason (1 Kings 11). He then setup one from the "house of Joseph" to be king over the ten tribes in the northern land of Israel. But one of Judah decended from David through Solomon became king over the other two tribes in Jerusalem. That's when the Bible term "house of Israel" applied only to the ten tribes in the north. Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was the one from the "house of Joseph" God made king over the ten tribes (1 Kings 11-12).

Let's count now, 2 tribes at Jerusalem called the "house of Judah". And then 10 tribes in the north called the "house of Israel". Which 'house' do you think had more Israelite peoples? If you said the "house of Israel", that's correct. And per Josephus the title 'Jew' became the name which only a small remnant of Judah began to use in Jerusalem after the return from Babylon! So let's count again: the Jews of a small remnant of the 2 tribed house of Judah as given in the Book of Ezra. The ten tribes of the house of Israel that were ALL gone out of the northern lands captive to Assyria 120 years before. The ten tribes were not known as 'Jews' (which title comes from the tribe of Judah only). Again, which is the majority of Israelites? The ten tribes have ALWAYS been the MAJORITY of Israelites.

So what were the ten tribes of Israel called? Not Jews! They were simply known as "ISRAEL". This is where the idea of their becoming 'LOST' comes from, because no one knows exactly where that group of the majority of Israelites are today. But we DO know from God's Word TWO MAJOR POINTS OF PROPHECY ABOUT THEM. They were a great number of seed, too many to count (even per Josephus in 100 A.D.!), and, their HEAD tribe EPHRAIM, was to become "a multitude of nations"! That's per Genesis 48:19 about Ephraim ONLY. WHERE THEN, was or is that "multitude of nations" prophecy for EPHRAIM fulfilled? IN THE CHRISTIAN WEST!

This is why God showed in Ezekiel 37:19 that the stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim. The tribe of Ephraim became the head tribe, and leader over the rest of the ten tirbes of Israel. JOSEPH AND HIS TWO SONS, EPHRAIM AND MANSESSH RECEIVED GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT PER 1 CHRONICLES 5.

Note the following ENDTIME prophecy Jacob gave to his son Joseph for the last days. It includes Ephraim and Manasseh, the two sons of Joseph:

Gen 49:22-26
22   Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23   The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24   But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

All this is about the seed of Joseph in the last days, our days, the days leading up to Christ's second coming, which is still yet future to us! The very first verse of Gen.49 sets that timing.

Joseph is a fruitful bough, by a well, whose branches run over the wall. Those are all symbolic metaphors for God's Birthright blessing having fallen upon Joseph, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. A fruitful bough means thick lush branches full of leaves, flowing and thriving! So thriving that they cannot be contained, but even run over the wall! The reason is, because his fruitful bough dwells by a WELL! What might that well symbolize here? It's Christ Jesus, for He represents The Living Waters!

The archers (Satan's darts) have attacked him, and hated him. Why? Because those are the enemies of Christ that want to steal Joseph's Birthright Blessing from God. The children of Esau is one of those, because Esau sold God's Birthright for a bowl beans, profaning it and treating it like something to be bought and sold like wares. Thus Esau lost it. The Blessing was moved to Jacob, and then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today!

But Joseph's bow dwelt in strength by God's Hand, which is another aspect of God's Birthright Blessing upon Joseph's seed (Psalms 60:7; Deut.33:13-17). From 'thence' is The Shepherd, The Stone of Israel. That's about the Jacob's pillar stone that Jacob dreamt upon, awoke and anointed the stone and called it 'Beth-El' (House of God).

Gen.49:25   Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, Who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26   The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(KJV)

Blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep, and blessings of the breast and womb; that's about God's Birthright blessing of great natural resources and a great number of people, as many as the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea for so many. That's the blessing that's was and still is upon Joseph's seed. Per Gen.48, Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh received the transfer of all that. The result was to be that Ephraim would become "A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS" and that Manasseh would also be "GREAT".

That foundation is what the Christian west is all about, under Christ Jesus. It is specifically WHY we have been so hated by the non-Christian world, and why the non-Christian world wants what GOD has given us. This is why so many peoples from other lands have sought to come to the Christian west because of its opportunities to thrive under peace, prosperity and liberty that have come from God's Birthright Blessings upon His people by The New Covenant Jesus Christ!

And the main thing is, the MAJORITY of the peoples who have a heritage in the FOUNDATION of the western Christian nations don't even KNOW they have a heritage from one of the ten lost tribes of Israel under Ephraim as head! Don't think for a minute I'm talking about Jews, for I'm not. The majority of Israelites descended from the ten tribes were never known as Jews. That title applied to the "house of Judah" only (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). That's the 'other' stick of Israel that's separate from the "house of Israel", even though many of them live among their own brethren in the west and calling them Gentiles when they are not.

Oh how the false Jews hate this teaching from God's Word about His Birthright that fell upon the head of Joseph, and Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. And they well know about it too, because that's why they'll even be the first ones to bring up Ephraim's name!

The real HEAT of hatred against God's people in the west is because Esau (Reds), Ishmael (radical Islam), and the old Canaanites (false crept in unawares) are ALLIED AGAINST THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL IN THE WEST! That's who that list of nations are in Ezekiel 38-39 that are to come upon both houses of Israel in the last days. It's about TWO different locations, since the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" are still split today. One location is to be the battle of "Hamongog" when God's enemies will come upon the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), and the other is Armageddon (Megido) in the area north of Jerusalem against the remnant of the "house of Judah" there. And some want to call all this from God's Word a 'myth'? Just who would have that kind of aim? Not God's people, that's for certain.

« Last Edit: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 03:22:02 by dp »

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 03:53:05 »
What's being taught today instead of the Bible history about the ten tribes of Israel, their Bible prophecies from God and the foundation of the Christian west under Christ Jesus?

Instead we've got a bunch of mealy-mouth 'tares' that have crept into many high positions within Christian organizations and its schools of learning that have designed traps to lead away from what God's Word reveals about the MAJORITY of His people! They even teach against the prophecies about the ten tribes of Israel and God's Promise to restore them. They do that like they want the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel to just go away and be no more!

But God said it; He's going to one day sift the ten tribes under Ephraim of the "house of Israel" like corn through sieve, and not the least grain will fall on the ground (Amos 9:9).

When our Lord Jesus Christ returns in the future, this envying of Ephraim (ten tribes), and Judah's vexing of Ephraim will end...

Isa 11:12-13
12   And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13   The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)

But until then, Judah will continue to vex Ephraim by smearing its history within God's Promises, and Ephraim will envy Judah's place in today's world. The adversaries among Judah (the "tares" hidden among the wheat per Matt.13), will then be cut off.

All will then understand how God scattered the majority of His people of Israel (ten tribes) out of the Holy Land captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes because of their whoredomes to Baal idol worship, and then led them westward into Asia Minor and western Europe and let them have their Baal idols there to the full, and then when it was time, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for those of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", and The Gospel was then accepted by the majority of them in the lands of Asia Minor and western Europe, creating the foundation for the western Christian nations, the "multitude of nations" under EPHRAIM.

And 'thence', THERE in those lands is THE SHEPHERD, THE STONE OF ISRAEL.

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #51 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 07:01:15 »
God divorced Israel... nothing else needs to be said.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #52 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 14:13:37 »
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.


Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #53 on: Tue Aug 25, 2009 - 16:24:31 »
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.

Okee dokee then.  The only thing i could make out coherent there is the fact that you say God gave the Gentiles the New Covenant blessings & promises, that we are living now, & then He will bring in Israel?
That is backwards at the fundamental level. It was 1st to the Jew, then to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 49:5-6,
5 “ And now the LORD says,
      Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
      To bring Jacob back to Him,
      So that Israel is gathered to Him
      (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
      And My God shall be My strength),
       6 Indeed He says,
      ‘ It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
      To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
      And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
      I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
      That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #54 on: Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 08:30:57 »
Those who don't think this matter about the ten tribes is still important today don't know how wrong they are, for those are too busy sucking up the false doctrines of the New Age influences that have been busy taking over many Churches today. That's why this Message is not taught in those kind of Churches. The fakes in some of those overtaken Churches now push lies like there's two different Gospels, one for flesh Israel, and another for the Gentiles, trying to drive a wedge into Christ's Body of believers.

Like God's Word reveals, He has not lost the ten tribes of Israel. God knows exactly where He scattered them, and where they will be gathered to Christ from. There will be no separate gathering of Gentiles to Christ without the gathering of these.

Okee dokee then.  The only thing i could make out coherent there is the fact that you say God gave the Gentiles the New Covenant blessings & promises, that we are living now, & then He will bring in Israel?
That is backwards at the fundamental level. It was 1st to the Jew, then to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 49:5-6,
5 “ And now the LORD says,
      Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
      To bring Jacob back to Him,
      So that Israel is gathered to Him
      (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
      And My God shall be My strength),
       6 Indeed He says,
      ‘ It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
      To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
      And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
      I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
      That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #55 on: Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 08:36:44 »
The funny thing is that recent DNA research has show the the Caucasian races have little to do with the middle east at any point in recorded history... so your entire premise is nothing by a fairy tale.


Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #56 on: Wed Aug 26, 2009 - 09:38:20 »

by watcher,

Quote
Guess you missed the part where Jesus told the deciples, "Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, but go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And again where He said, "I have come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And i guess why you have no discernment of God's timing in Scripture is bc you choose to ignore the rest of His words:
And what did Jesus say to His apostles in approx AD30 also? (note the whole passage Matt.10:16-26) Here's part of that passage, although one MUST not consider it out of context to the rest of the passage:
23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Notice how He spoke this to the original apostles- AND NOT PAUL. Paul was not present so this does not apply to Paul.
Luke 2:34-35,
34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Aug 27, 2009 - 03:57:45 »
No matter how much the false ones keeping trying to bury that little ole Scripture of prophecy like the Gen.48 prophecy that EPHRAIM would become "a multitude of nations", it keeps rearing its head! That's because God does not want His people to forget that He loves them, for there has ALWAYS been a remnant among the ten tribes that knows His Truth, as He promised in Hosea there would be.

The Apostle Paul confirmed this remnant of Israel also, but the false prophets against God's Word try to omit its meaning about the seed of Israel...

Rom 11:1-12
1   I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The subject here by Paul is the flesh seed of Israel, not Gentiles.

Rom.11:2   God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3   Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5   Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.[/b]

This "remnant according to the election of grace" Paul was speaking of are Israelites, not Gentiles.

Rom.11:6    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7   What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8   (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9   And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10   Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11   I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12   Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(KJV)

Does that mean God threw away all Israel, all His chosen? No, for as even Paul showed there's always been a remnant of Israel according to the election of God's Grace. And that remnant election of Israel involves the scattered ten tribes of the 'house of Israel' especially, because that's who founded the western Christian nations, the "multitude of nations" with Ephraim as head. The rest were blinded, which sadly included most of the Jews of the house of Judah.

Rom 11:13-15
13   For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was addressing that TO the Gentiles, but not ABOUT the Gentiles.

And it's not about ALL Israel falling away, but only the rest that were blinded. A big part of those blinded are the Jews, because their orthodoxy is about the traditions of the Pharisees that caused even Paul (Saul) at one time to be blinded into persecuting Christ's Church.

Rom.11:14   If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15   For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
(KJV)

If the blinded of Israel returns to The Father through Christ Jesus, then for them it's like life from the dead.

Rom 11:16-17
16   For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17   And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(KJV)

If some of the branches of Israel were broken off, and the Gentiles being a wild olive tree is graffed IN AMONG THEM, what's that mean? Who's the 'them'? It's Israel. This means even the Gentiles MUST be graffed IN AMONG ISRAEL, and with them partake of the ROOT and fatness of the original olive tree.

So sorry, that does NOT mean Christ's Church was ever separate from God's Israel. Christ's Church is God's Israel, but definitely not the Israel of the non-believing Jews, for they were blinded and refuse The Savior Jesus Christ. As long as they remain blinded they are cut off from the original olive tree.

The fact that Paul calls the Gentiles a "wild olive tree" being graffed in among Israel, means Christ's Church is ever about God's Israel. There's always been a remnant of Israel according to the election of grace that have NEVER been cut off, were never blinded. In other words, a remnant of Israel has ALWAYS existed according to election that came through the Old Covenant, then accepted The New Covenant Jesus Christ when He died on the cross, and became the foundation of God's Church, and thus Christ's Church.

Rom 11:23-27
23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If the blinded of Israel don't stay in blindness, but believe on The Savior Jesus Christ Whom The Father sent, then they will be graffed back in. And here Paul goes one further about the Gentiles, contrasting the Gentiles being "cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature", and then "graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree". It's doesn't mean the Gentiles are an olive tree by theirselves. For the ROOT represents Christ Jesus which both must be joined to.

25   For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26   And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27   For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(KJV)

Has God taken away Israel's sins today? Yes, for the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace that were NOT blinded. Because that involves many, many Israelites, especially among the ten tribes of the house of Israel that made up the majority of Israelites before they were scattered. That was possible because Christ Jesus died on the cross, and the "multitude of nations" prophecy about Ephraim came to pass in the West.

Eph 2:11-13
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

(KJV)

Paul's saying, remember when you were in times past Gentiles in the flesh, and at that time were without Christ, and were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God.

So to be without Christ, means to NOT be part of the "commonwealth of Israel". It also means to be strangers away from God's covenant promises, and even being without God.

And in the last verse Paul says that now if you are in Christ Jesus and were once afar off from those things, NOW you are partakers, "made nigh"!

Did Paul say the "commonwealth of The Church"? NO. HE SAID "THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL"!

So there it is, even taught by the Apostle Paul that Christ's Body has ALWAYS meant God's true Israel, which includes both the flesh seed remnant of election according to His grace, AND believing Gentiles graffed in AMONG ISRAEL.

Let's see if I can make it more plain. This ISRAEL Paul speaks of, is the same ISRAEL that has existed all throughout The Bible. It has NEVER ended. It progressed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant Jesus Christ. And then ISRAEL became a COMMONWEALTH, because of believing Gentiles being graffed in among the Israelite flesh seed remnant election of grace that existed previously.





Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #58 on: Thu Aug 27, 2009 - 09:37:11 »
Listen to what Paul said about useless genealogies & Jewish fables.

He should know, as those Judaizers were like "satan" & a thorn in his flesh. But praise God, Christianity won over Judaism in God's program. See, the apostles' mission was not in vain.

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:39:23 »

by watcher,

Quote
Guess you missed the part where Jesus told the deciples, "Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, but go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And again where He said, "I have come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And i guess why you have no discernment of God's timing in Scripture is bc you choose to ignore the rest of His words:
And what did Jesus say to His apostles in approx AD30 also? (note the whole passage Matt.10:16-26) Here's part of that passage, although one MUST not consider it out of context to the rest of the passage:
23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Notice how He spoke this to the original apostles- AND NOT PAUL. Paul was not present so this does not apply to Paul.
Luke 2:34-35,
34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:48:09 by watcher »

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:46:42 »
[
Again I ask, How can we possibly understand the prophetic scriptures of Daniel if we don't take into consideration the geneologies of the two peoples spoken of in the above verses?


Because the scriptures tell us not to.... plain and simple.

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:55:57 »
[
Again I ask, How can we possibly understand the prophetic scriptures of Daniel if we don't take into consideration the geneologies of the two peoples spoken of in the above verses?


Because the scriptures tell us not to.... plain and simple.
Quote


LOL, Then if I were you I wouldn't even bother reading Daniel and Revelation and the other prophetic scriptures.  Nor would I attempt to discuss those scriptures with anyone. 

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #62 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 09:58:36 »
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.



« Last Edit: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 10:05:27 by Tantor »

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #63 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 11:24:50 »
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.




Quote


>>>Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.<<<

Yes, they've been fulfilled; mostly within the last half of this century, which makes it a BIG DEAL!

The falling away (apostasy) of the European Americans has already occured, and the ten horns (son of perdition) has already exalted and revealed himself, as foretold by Paul in 11Thes.2.

They have taken away the dominion of the European Americans, and  for the past fifty years they've been consuming and destroying America. And, they'll continue to do so right up until the end, as Daniel prophecied in 7:26.

Can you guess who the ten horns are?

Here, I'll give you some more clues taken from Rev.17.

Here's what verse 16 says of the ten horns that are upon the beast Babylon (upon America), 

"these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh (destroy her race), and burn her with fire (consume and destroy her)."

And what verse 17 says of the ten kings or European Americans,

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (unto the ten horns) until the words of God shall be fulfilled."



 

Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 13:42:21 »
by watcher,
Quote
The falling away (apostasy) of the European Americans has already occured, and the ten horns (son of perdition) has already exalted and revealed himself, as foretold by Paul in 11Thes.2.

That would be hilarious if you weren't serious.

Rev.17 says "Here is the mind which has wisdom" for a reason. (it's times like these that i know why it says that)

Ask, & i will let you know the prophecy of the Harlot, the 7kings, & the "calvary" extensions of Rome that were called to the battle.

Either way, you won't be wasting my future on your imaginary stories of doom & gloom.






Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Aug 28, 2009 - 13:45:59 »

Yes, they've been fulfilled; mostly within the last half of this century, which makes it a BIG DEAL!


They were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.

You my friend are living a lie.

Offline dp

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #66 on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 07:19:17 »
Since they have already been fulfilled it's not that big of a deal.

But for those like you who do not believe Jesus it's not surprising that you like to waste your time twisting things to your liking.

Remember, all those prophesies you are trying to interpret.. according to Jesus himself, would be fulfilled within the generation of those living at the time he spoke... so I believe him.

We may not see the signs and wonders prophesied fulfilled in the way that we want (mostly this happens due to the last 200 +/- years of heretical teachings about end times)... but I take Jesus at his word and believe he spoke the truth.. everything has been accomplished.

I also do not believe that when John said his visions were to happen 'soon'... he was not thinking 2000 years in the future as being 'soon'.  It's right there in the first chapter of Revelation, go read it for yourself.

Thinking that the Matthew 24 prophecy has already been fulfilled is silly, and the following verses prove it:

Matt 24:30-31
30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31   And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

This Revelation 1:7 verse is that same event...

Rev 1:7
7   Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

That's the event of Christ's second coming, which the Apostle Paul was teaching of in 1 Thess.4:16-17, and in 1 Corinthians 15. That has NOT happened yet to this day. Nor is it recorded in history. Since the Scripture has a condition that "all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him", it means they will recognize that event of His coming. Yet none have ever shown they witnessed it nor has a written witness of it ever been recorded.

Those who believe it has happened already have been terribly duped by false prophets. It's as simple as that.

Tantor

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #67 on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:58:16 »
They HAD to have happened... because the scriptures give a SPECIFIC time frame.. and that time frame elapsed a long time ago.

To say that he hasn't returned is to deny the scriptures.

Offline rezar

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #68 on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 09:03:08 »
by dp,
Quote
Matt 24:30-31
30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31   And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

This Revelation 1:7 verse is that same event...

Rev 1:7
7   Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

That's the event of Christ's second coming, which the Apostle Paul was teaching of in 1 Thess.4:16-17, and in 1 Corinthians 15. That has NOT happened yet to this day. Nor is it recorded in history. Since the Scripture has a condition that "all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him

Note who was to literally "see" or at least perceive that He was the Son of God in heaven at the right hand of power- it was the "tribes of the land" the kindreds of Israel (the land , earth)

Too bad they didn't live to talk about it.  But we should be able to discern that -in Scripture! (& history helps also).

Offline watcher

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Re: America or Israel?
« Reply #69 on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 09:17:58 »
Quote
Quote

The first beast of Revelation 13:1 is about the joining of nations and peoples into a world kingdom system. The ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads refer to the same kind of beast kingdoms Lord compared to from Daniel 7. (see Rev.13:2). The ten crowns mean ten kings ruling over all nations, peoples, multitudes, and nations upon this earth at the same time (Rev.17:15 explains the "sea" of Rev.13:1).

WOW, dp...First you say that Babylon the great is Jerusalem, and now you're saying that it's "a world system with ten kings ruling over all nations".

Appears to me you're a bit confused.

The beast which John saw and described coming out of the sea in Rev.13:1 is the same Babylon that he saw and described in Rev.17:3.  

Notice:
Rev.17:3  "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And Rev.13:1  "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

The "seven heads" and "ten horns" upon the beast represents all the races of people that are upon Babylon.

Though you people keep denying it, the Babylon which John described was/is modern-day  AMERICA.




« Last Edit: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 10:08:51 by watcher »