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Offline Cally

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America versus ancient Rome
« on: January 22, 2012, 07:52:51 PM »
http://www.roman-empire-america-now.com/

I'm not a history buff. Go easy on me. But it sure looks like lots of similarities to me, America today and ancient Rome before it fell.

The military was out all over the place while people starved, people at home became more and more morally bankrupt. I feel like some of our entertainment has a fixation on human suffering that I would even liken to the arenas. (I remember someone commenting that perhaps the appeal of the arenas to people was the thought of seeing someone in a worse situation than oneself)

Has anyone else here considered this?

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America versus ancient Rome
« on: January 22, 2012, 07:52:51 PM »

Offline Seriousseeker

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 05:31:58 PM »
I don't know how significant that is, but it is true that Rome was a military giant at the time of its collapse --corruption at home, the economy failing, immorality, insurrection, etc.  It may suggest that America will fail for the same reasons. 

We know from prophecy that world power will shift to Europe sometime, where the political beast will rise up out of a ten-nation confederacy.  We may see some of that, but I believe the church will be taken out of this world before the Beast comes into power.

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 05:31:58 PM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 07:23:59 PM »
Don't worry Cally we have a long long way before we're as jacked up as Rome before they fell. We still need a head of state to ignite our nation capital in a six day fire before we even get close.

Offline fenton

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:47 PM »
I don't know how significant that is, but it is true that Rome was a military giant at the time of its collapse --corruption at home, the economy failing, immorality, insurrection, etc.  It may suggest that America will fail for the same reasons. 

We know from prophecy that world power will shift to Europe sometime, where the political beast will rise up out of a ten-nation confederacy.  We may see some of that, but I believe the church will be taken out of this world before the Beast comes into power.


agreed   ::clappingoverhead::

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:47 PM »
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Amo

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 07:46:05 PM »
Yes, the rise of the Papacy to power within the Roman empire, was the decline and fall of the same.  So to, the rise of the Papacies power within our republic is being and will be the decline and fall of our country also.  The number of Catholic politicians running our country under the influence of the Vatican has been on the rise for some time, correspondingly, we have been in an ever increasing nose dive.  This is certainly not the first time the Church of Rome has sucked the life out of a nation. The following testimonies should suffice.

But the success of the Papacy, when closely examined, is not so surprising as it looks. It cannot be justly pronounced legitimate, or fairly won. Rome has ever been swimming with the tide. The evils and passions of society, which a true benefactress would have made it her business to cure -at least, to alleviate -Rome has studied rather to foster into strength, that she might be borne to power on the foul current which she herself had created. Amid battles, bloodshed, and confusion, has her path lain. The edicts of subservient Councils, the forgeries of hireling priests, the arms of craven monarchs, and the thunderbolts of excommunication have never been wanting to open her path. Exploits won by weapons of this sort are what her historians delight to chronicle. These are the victories that constitute her glory! And then, there remains yet another and great deduction from the apparent grandeur of her success, in that, after all, it is the success of only a few -a caste -the clergy. For although, during her early career, the Roman Church rendered certain important services to society -of which it will delight us to make mention in fitting place when she grew to maturity, and was able to develop her real genius, it was felt and acknowledged by all that her principles implied the ruin of all interests save her own, and that there was room in the world for none but herself. If her march, as shown in history down to the sixteenth century, is ever onwards, it is not less true that behind, on her path, lie the wrecks of nations, and the ashes of literature, of liberty, and of civilization. (History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Vol. 1,Book 1,Chapter 4, pages 36&37)


In America, particularly, is this investigation important. In all the
countries over which it has triumphed, Popery, like the anaconda, has
wound around its folds of art, of cunning, of superstition and of power,
until, enclosing everything in its too friendly embraces, it has, with one
tremendous effort, crushed the nation to death. It sends forth its
missionaries; it gathers its schools and colleges; it erects its cathedrals and
builds its churches; it is patriotic, benevolent, charitable. Its alms and
offerings attract the vulgar, its austerities and penances convince the
sceptical. It is at first tolerated; then approved; next obeyed! But now
come the dread realities of the system, taxation, passive submission,
excommunications, interdicts, crusades, the inquisition, destruction. Yes,
Popery has well nigh destroyed every country in which it has been
predominant. The liberties and national prosperity of a people cannot coexist
with such a system. ( CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST by Samuel J. Cassels Pgs. 125&126 )

The decline and fall of this nation will directly correlate to the establishment of a new global order controlled and manipulated by the Church of Rome. In fact, it will be the catapult of the same. This will of course lead to the decline and fall of the entire world just prior to Christ's second coming.  The transgression of desolation, and the abomination of desolation have, are, and will continue to do their work.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 08:27:10 PM by Amo »

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 07:46:05 PM »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 07:52:40 PM »
Yes, the rise of the Papacy to power within the Roman empire, was the decline and fall of the same.  So to, the rise of the Papacies power within our republic is being and will be the decline and fall of our country also.  The number of Catholic politicians running our country under the influence of the Vatican has been on the rise for some time, correspondingly, we have been in an ever increasing nose dive.  This is certainly not the first time the Church of Rome has sucked the life out of a nation. The following testimonies should suffice.

But the success of the Papacy, when closely examined, is not so surprising as it looks. It cannot be justly pronounced legitimate, or fairly won. Rome has ever been swimming with the tide. The evils and passions of society, which a true benefactress would have made it her business to cure -at least, to alleviate -Rome has studied rather to foster into strength, that she might be borne to power on the foul current which she herself had created. Amid battles, bloodshed, and confusion, has her path lain. The edicts of subservient Councils, the forgeries of hireling priests, the arms of craven monarchs, and the thunderbolts of excommunication have never been wanting to open her path. Exploits won by weapons of this sort are what her historians delight to chronicle. These are the victories that constitute her glory! And then, there remains yet another and great deduction from the apparent grandeur of her success, in that, after all, it is the success of only a few -a caste -the clergy. For although, during her early career, the Roman Church rendered certain important services to society -of which it will delight us to make mention in fitting place when she grew to maturity, and was able to develop her real genius, it was felt and acknowledged by all that her principles implied the ruin of all interests save her own, and that there was room in the world for none but herself. If her march, as shown in history down to the sixteenth century, is ever onwards, it is not less true that behind, on her path, lie the wrecks of nations, and the ashes of literature, of liberty, and of civilization. (Vol. 1,Book 1,Chapter 4, pages 36&37)


In America, particularly, is this investigation important. In all the
countries over which it has triumphed, Popery, like the anaconda, has
wound around its folds of art, of cunning, of superstition and of power,
until, enclosing everything in its too friendly embraces, it has, with one
tremendous effort, crushed the nation to death. It sends forth its
missionaries; it gathers its schools and colleges; it erects its cathedrals and
builds its churches; it is patriotic, benevolent, charitable. Its alms and
offerings attract the vulgar, its austerities and penances convince the
sceptical. It is at first tolerated; then approved; next obeyed! But now
come the dread realities of the system, taxation, passive submission,
excommunications, interdicts, crusades, the inquisition, destruction. Yes,
Popery has well nigh destroyed every country in which it has been
predominant. The liberties and national prosperity of a people cannot coexist
with such a system. ( CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST by Samuel J. Cassels Pgs. 125&126 )

The decline and fall of this nation will directly correlate to the establishment of a new global order controlled and manipulated by the Church of Rome. In fact, it will be the catapult of the same. This will of course lead to the decline and fall of the entire world just prior to Christ's second coming.  The transgression of desolation, and the abomination of desolation have, are, and will continue to do their work.



Could you be more specific? I have grown accustomed to the standard generalizations of Gibbon and others but in an academic discussion there should be some specifics.

How did the rise of the Papacy bring about the decline of the Roman empire?

Do you have anything besides "the big bad Papacy" to be debated from a serious students' stand point?

Offline Cally

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 08:31:48 PM »
All right, by what justification did this subject get moved to the "end times" forum?

LightHammer makes a point--we're not in quite as extreme as the Roman empire . . . yet. I do think it looks to be heading in that direction and going pretty much downhill. I think our core culture is truly showing its weaknesses right now, but I don't feel that people have completely lost moral reasoning--of course, related to Christianity, lots of people are quitting church attendance, but when you consider that church structure barely resembles the Bible's teaching anyway, is that really a sign of immorality or just the erosion of a fleeting culture?

Hence, there may be opportunity hiding in here.  ::pondering:: Some of my thoughts.

Offline fenton

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 08:36:55 PM »
instead of gladiators in the Colosseum, we now have gladiators on TV   ::whistle::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 08:53:15 PM »
All right, by what justification did this subject get moved to the "end times" forum?

LightHammer makes a point--we're not in quite as extreme as the Roman empire . . . yet. I do think it looks to be heading in that direction and going pretty much downhill. I think our core culture is truly showing its weaknesses right now, but I don't feel that people have completely lost moral reasoning--of course, related to Christianity, lots of people are quitting church attendance, but when you consider that church structure barely resembles the Bible's teaching anyway, is that really a sign of immorality or just the erosion of a fleeting culture?

Hence, there may be opportunity hiding in here.  ::pondering:: Some of my thoughts.

A moderator anticipated the inevitable flow this conversation is going to have and preemptively transferred this thread where it would end up.

I would like to stress something. I do not believe in a PreTrib Rapture. As a student of the Early Church I would feel rather ashamed not to suffer to some degree as my ancestors did for the faith. However my point was not to spark a debate on the rapture.

My point is this. Christians are not members of society. We are pilgrims making our way through this world. The fate of any government should not rattle our cages nor should the coming or going of any other. We respect ethical laws and stand against corrupt ones in any. Our home is in Heaven.

I realize that they may sound like some kind of cliche but our brothers and sisters in Egypt are living it already, while some of us here cower in fear over the inevitable fate of the Faithful in this world. Persecution.  It is apart of our history. While cultures of man celebrate the triumph over the enemies' shed blood, we Christians honor the blood of our Savior and our martyrs.

It's who we are.


Offline Cally

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 10:01:51 PM »
All right, by what justification did this subject get moved to the "end times" forum?

LightHammer makes a point--we're not in quite as extreme as the Roman empire . . . yet. I do think it looks to be heading in that direction and going pretty much downhill. I think our core culture is truly showing its weaknesses right now, but I don't feel that people have completely lost moral reasoning--of course, related to Christianity, lots of people are quitting church attendance, but when you consider that church structure barely resembles the Bible's teaching anyway, is that really a sign of immorality or just the erosion of a fleeting culture?

Hence, there may be opportunity hiding in here.  ::pondering:: Some of my thoughts.

A moderator anticipated the inevitable flow this conversation is going to have and preemptively transferred this thread where it would end up.

I would like to stress something. I do not believe in a PreTrib Rapture. As a student of the Early Church I would feel rather ashamed not to suffer to some degree as my ancestors did for the faith. However my point was not to spark a debate on the rapture.

My point is this. Christians are not members of society. We are pilgrims making our way through this world. The fate of any government should not rattle our cages nor should the coming or going of any other. We respect ethical laws and stand against corrupt ones in any. Our home is in Heaven.

I realize that they may sound like some kind of cliche but our brothers and sisters in Egypt are living it already, while some of us here cower in fear over the inevitable fate of the Faithful in this world. Persecution.  It is apart of our history. While cultures of man celebrate the triumph over the enemies' shed blood, we Christians honor the blood of our Savior and our martyrs.

It's who we are.

Yes, and likewise I'm not afraid of customs of a culture shattering. The ones who stand firm will be like lights in the darkness--easy to see, I would imagine.

Offline divine_providence

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Re: America versus ancient Rome
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 12:56:44 PM »
Roman civil law relies entirely on unilateral or implied contracts. This is where one party agrees by the simple act of accepting a benefit(s) the civil government has to offer. In other words, the individual has something offered to him that he accepts - usually an economic or mercantile benefit. The act of acceptance, with or without a signature of acceptance, comes with strings of compelled performance attached. This is because the very act of voluntary acceptance (by your silence) implied your endorsement. The implied endorsement creates a constructive trust arrangement with the civil government for your assumed benefit. This means the trust becomes the third party who can dictate the Statutes, Codes and laws by its legislature and we are compelled to align our lives with them, because of our silent volunteering. After accepting some benefit under Roman civil law and you discover the hidden strings that you do not like, too bad, you are bound to perform or suffer the consequence of those holding the strings. If you wrong the trust that you are involved with, you are assumed guilty and the burden of proof is up to you to clear yourself. Your job, under the Roman civil law, is to jump even when you didn't have to. Their job - the civil administrator and their courts - is to tell you how high. The Roman civil law is a perversion of private conscience law because it is placing the private conscience of one or a few over the private consciences of the masses. And it is done without full disclosure of bilateral contracts. This allows government to always become a superior entity to the citizen by binding him in constructive trust arrangements. This is why there is no separation of power, only one power and that is government. The people are subservient because they are involved in a constructive trust that controls their conscience and they are not even aware of it.

Private law, which the Roman civil law thrived on, was conscience law of one "person" (trust) over another without their knowing how it happened. There was no liberty of choice as to its terms. The terms of the contract or agreement (also called an offer) are always based on the personal beliefs of the Roman civil government. The offer is always unilateral where your acceptance is totally signified by your silence. Everything the individual got involved in under Roman civil law had implications that obligated him or her because of benefits being accepted by continued silence. There were always strings attached that were considered a benefit. The agreement never has definite limits. What is agreed on is only implied or constructed upon the circumstances. The implications of a unilateral offer and acceptance would always create a third party constructive or implied trust. This trust, being the third party, was always there to oversee and to exact what it thought it was due through compelled performance to the rules of the private trust that bound the persons who had private business dealings. There is no separation of powers. In other words, there is no way to have a true bilateral general common law contractual relationship because of the government having you in a trust relationship making your position inferior, not superior. You become the trust and therefore part of the government, while at the same time, the government becomes you and part of the trust. You end up being your own enforcer as a volunteer. Your identity is lost in the trust relationship due to purely moral ideas developed outside the legal system (because of a movement away from Law) because it finds its chief reliance is on the power of the magistrate.

And yes, Roman Civil Law is alive and well in the United States.