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Bikelite

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Apostasy in the end times.
« on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 11:11:02 »
In this Generation , we have set the standard for apostasy. There have always been heretical views, of course, just as there have always been earthquakes, famines, and wars. But this generation has elevated it to an art form.The apostle Paul predicted that a time would come when men and women would turn away from the faith and instead embrace heresy. The drift tward apostasy, the true church of Jesus Christ has always been plagued by apostacy, but nothing like the present. The bible makes it clear that doctrinal confusion will rise to a crecendo in the latter days, leading many to depart from the faith as they eagerly follow deceiving spirits and willingly adopt doctrines of demons. After the catching away of those in Christ 1 thess 4 V 17 all who are truly in him will be gone. Conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they alredy have in thought. Then their insincerity will demonstrate itself outwardly. This worldwide anti God movement will be so universal as to earn itself a special designation, the apostasy.

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Apostasy in the end times.
« on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 11:11:02 »

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 12:57:27 »
2Thessalonians 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Thessalonians 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Thessalonians 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Falling away in vs.3 means falling away from truth as it is given by Gods Spirit, but as many turn to their own imaginations of what God has already said.  The son of Perdition is the one and only Roman empire Pontiff Maximus  that will seek it's seat on the throne of Jerusalem as Satan controls the actions of him. Who else other than the Pope makes claim to being called the Father and exalts himself above all that is God.

Yes, there have always been heretical views and that's just what they are is views and not facts. This is why there is so much different doctrines of teachings about the end times, because so many are jumping on the money bandwagon to tote their books and movies for self gain and we buy into it all because we deem these people as mighty men of God, but they know nothing of truth as they to are following a majority rule society.Each one of us will stand if front of Jesus alone and by ourselves to give account for the things we spoke here on earth and Jesus will say to many I never knew you. If ones does not know truth for themselves, but follow after teachings of heresy because it makes sense to their carnal minds then they should remain silent as to not be deceived by Satan's teachings and stand in a greater judgment of speech.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 12:57:27 »

Offline farouk

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 13:22:26 »
Ms Debbie:

So we need, rather, to keep 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith', right? as Hebrews says.

Take care.

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 15:15:09 »
Ms Debbie:

So we need, rather, to keep 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith', right? as Hebrews says.

Take care.

That's right for that is the important part of everything. Things of prophecy will take it's rightful place and it is interesting studying the things that must come, but like you said we must always keep looking in to Jesus and be about our Fathers business of getting His word out into the world.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 15:15:09 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 16:24:59 »
Debbie what do you think Israels  roll is in prophecy Im just throwing this out to you ... dont be shy.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 16:24:59 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:17:14 »
How can their be apostasy if Christians are "once saved, always saved"?  ::stirringthepot::

**edited for typo**
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:51:49 by Jaime »

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #6 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:23:12 »
whats your point?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #7 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:25:40 »
How can their be apostasy if Christians are "one saved, always saved"?  ::stirringthepot::

Salvation is like a Sine Wave, in the RM?   ::eatingpopcorn:

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:27:44 »
There is a big Diff , and If you are not aware of it well...... for one false doctrine is Lucifer driven ... do I have to say more! but you must know this!

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #9 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:33:44 »
So if you sucome to false doctine what does this mean?

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #10 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 17:38:54 »
And you say let me in ... go away I do not know you....... Salvation is such a easy thing ... believe in ME and you will be saved  ..... thats it ... but you have to really believe, god knows the heart.

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #11 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 20:10:40 »

A child in Christ asks God; please help mommy and daddy. Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  Then they ask God; please help me go to heaven. Do you think they receive the answer that according to this other group, we are already in heaven you numbskull; depart from me, and Jesus will say I never knew you?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #12 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 20:58:12 »
The son of Perdition is the one and only Roman empire Pontiff Maximus  that will seek it's seat on the throne of Jerusalem as Satan controls the actions of him. Who else other than the Pope makes claim to being called the Father and exalts himself above all that is God.

I disagree, if anything the Roman Vicar fits the description of the false prophet closer than the antichrist (Rev 13:11-14).

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #13 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 21:39:23 »

The antichrist will be a political leader, the false prophet will probably be a Jewish religious leader to gain their trust as he will though he could be from the apostatised church during the tribulation. He will call down fire, and raise the antichrist to life, etc.

My thoughts.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #14 on: Sun Dec 13, 2009 - 22:31:53 »
The antichrist will be a political leader, the false prophet will probably be a Jewish religious leader...

I could also agree with this, I don't the the false prophet will necessarily be a Pope or Judizer. With the ecumenical movement underway I don't think these classifications will bear much relevance by the time the anticrist and false prophet emerges.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #15 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 06:05:43 »
But how will apostasy occur among Christians who don't believe they can fall away? That's my point Bikelite! Apostasy IS Falling Away!

Bikelite

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #16 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 07:58:30 »
Hi I do not understand what you are trying to say.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #17 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 09:32:19 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for folks that believe that, how can an apostasy occur?

**edited typos**
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:13:14 by Jaime »

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 11:35:55 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

Without attempting to change the thread to "Once Saved, Always Saved" I will say that we may depend on Jesus to keep us.

2 Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (We are a part of Him.)
 
World Book - apostasy, noun, pl. -sies.a complete forsaking of one's religion, faith, political party, or principles. Ex. (Figurative.) In 1910 began a series of famed apostasies of disciples who refused to accept Freud's theories unconditionally (Time). (SYN) desertion, defection, lapse.

We presently have those among us that will condemn another to this state for a repeated sin.

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 11:55:28 »
Debbie what do you think Israels  roll is in prophecy Im just throwing this out to you ... dont be shy.

go to my website at: www.ourchurch.com/member/m/ministering and click on Second Coming of Christ and this will show you where I come from for my teachings. I do not debate nor argue the word of God, but give what I know is Gods word.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #20 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:05:00 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

Without attempting to change the thread to "Once Saved, Always Saved" I will say that we may depend on Jesus to keep us.

2 Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (We are a part of Him.)
  
World Book - apostasy, noun, pl. -sies.a complete forsaking of one's religion, faith, political party, or principles. Ex. (Figurative.) In 1910 began a series of famed apostasies of disciples who refused to accept Freud's theories unconditionally (Time). (SYN) desertion, defection, lapse.

We presently have those among us that will condemn another to this state for a repeated sin.


So, is it possible for a Christian to apostasize? If not, what is the "apostasy" referring to in the title to this thread. I'm not trying to change the topic of the thread, the topic of apostasy in the end times IS the question. A Christian sinning is not apostasy. Walking in the light is not walking sinlessly.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #21 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:10:06 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

This is a very interesting question, I always considered the passage to have a general meaning addressed to the church at large. Like the Laodicean church, they were considered faithful but fall away becoming the counterfeit church. In the end we will have a world religion so the thought of a counterfeit church led by a false prophet seems to be a likely scenario.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #22 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:16:30 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

This is a very interesting question, I always considered the passage to have a general meaning addressed to the church at large. Like the Laodicean church, they were considered faithful but fall away becoming the counterfeit church. In the end we will have a world religion so the thought of a counterfeit church led by a false prophet seems to be a likely scenario.

So Charles, you believe real true Christians will be lead astray to the point of "falling away"? This ought to give pause to the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) point of view.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #23 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:34:18 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

This is a very interesting question, I always considered the passage to have a general meaning addressed to the church at large. Like the Laodicean church, they were considered faithful but fall away becoming the counterfeit church. In the end we will have a world religion so the thought of a counterfeit church led by a false prophet seems to be a likely scenario.

So Charles, you believe real true Christians will be lead astray to the point of "falling away"? This ought to give pause to the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) point of view.

I think real Christians can never be lead astray, like Jesus said "if it were possible to deceive the elect" (vs. Mat 24:24), but I think many believe they are saved when they are not. I don't know what side I fall on the "Once Saved Always Saved" discussion, although I am familiar enough with the Bible that I think I could argue either side if I were so inclined; which really doesn't help me much on that topic.

When it comes to the eschatology of the apostate church and the rapture, I'm not sure I by into all the pretrib dispensational stuff. I can say that the falling away can't be applied to the world, since what are they falling away from? So it must be the church that rejects the faith and follows after the antichrist.

But remember Jamie, I am certainly no expert on the end times.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #24 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:40:08 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

This is a very interesting question, I always considered the passage to have a general meaning addressed to the church at large. Like the Laodicean church, they were considered faithful but fall away becoming the counterfeit church. In the end we will have a world religion so the thought of a counterfeit church led by a false prophet seems to be a likely scenario.

So Charles, you believe real true Christians will be lead astray to the point of "falling away"? This ought to give pause to the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) point of view.

I think real Christians can never be lead astray, like Jesus said "if it were possible to deceive the elect" (vs. Mat 24:24), but I think many believe they are saved when they are not. I don't know what side I fall on the "Once Saved Always Saved" discussion, although I am familiar enough with the Bible that I think I could argue either side if I were so inclined; which really doesn't help me much on that topic.

When it comes to the eschatology of the apostate church and the rapture, I'm not sure I by into all the pretrib dispensational stuff. I can say that the falling away can't be applied to the world, since what are they falling away from? So it must be the church that rejects the faith and follows after the antichrist.

But remember Jamie, I am certainly no expert on the end times.

I also am no expert. I just understand that apostasy or falling away implies that someone has to have been a Christian in order to fall from it. I don't buy into the explanation that someone was never really a Christian if they fall away. It's the inarguable argument, and it doesn't hold water. There is too many warnings in the NT about falling away for it not to be a possibility for a Christian. If a person only thinks they are a Christian and "falls away", what have they fallen away FROM? And yes, taking the Mark of the Beast is something we as Christians are warned against. If only non-Christians could take the Mark of the Beast, what is the point? (rhetorical question)

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #25 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:44:41 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

Without attempting to change the thread to "Once Saved, Always Saved" I will say that we may depend on Jesus to keep us.

2 Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (We are a part of Him.)
  
World Book - apostasy, noun, pl. -sies.a complete forsaking of one's religion, faith, political party, or principles. Ex. (Figurative.) In 1910 began a series of famed apostasies of disciples who refused to accept Freud's theories unconditionally (Time). (SYN) desertion, defection, lapse.

We presently have those among us that will condemn another to this state for a repeated sin.


So, is it possible for a Christian to apostasize? If not, what is the "apostasy" referring to in the title to this thread. I'm not trying to change the topic of the thread, the topic of apostasy in the end times IS the question. A Christian sinning is not apostasy. Walking in the light is not walking sinlessly.


In the context you're attributing to apostasy, I do not believe a Christian can, but I await your beating me to death with scripture showing Judas was a Christian or something akin to it.   ::smile::
BTW - Have you ever felt as if you're walking on eggshells regardless the stand you take?  rofl

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #26 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 12:46:44 »
What I'm trying to say is, many Christians believe that Christians can't fall away or apostisize,  which is the popular  Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. So for foilks that bekiecve that, how can an apostasy occur?

Without attempting to change the thread to "Once Saved, Always Saved" I will say that we may depend on Jesus to keep us.

2 Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (We are a part of Him.)
 
World Book - apostasy, noun, pl. -sies.a complete forsaking of one's religion, faith, political party, or principles. Ex. (Figurative.) In 1910 began a series of famed apostasies of disciples who refused to accept Freud's theories unconditionally (Time). (SYN) desertion, defection, lapse.

We presently have those among us that will condemn another to this state for a repeated sin.


So, is it possible for a Christian to apostasize? If not, what is the "apostasy" referring to in the title to this thread. I'm not trying to change the topic of the thread, the topic of apostasy in the end times IS the question. A Christian sinning is not apostasy. Walking in the light is not walking sinlessly.


In the context you're attributing to apostasy, I do not believe a Christian can, but I await your beating me to death with scripture showing Judas was a Christian or something akin to it.   ::smile::
BTW - Have you ever felt as if you're walking on eggshells regardless the stand you take?  rofl

Larry, I don't feel I am walking on eggshells. We have to go with what we believe until we stop believing it. Who is going to Apostasize in the endtimes if not Christians. And if it is not Christians, what are they falling from?

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #27 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 13:14:40 »

Larry, I don't feel I am walking on eggshells. We have to go with what we believe until we stop believing it. Who is going to Apostasize in the endtimes if not Christians. And if it is not Christians, what are they falling from?


Dear Jaime, 2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let me ask you, are they falling away from their salvation, or their faithfulness such as Peter did when confronted with temptation? Have you determined you will stand firm in the faith when they are ready to drag you away? We can say anything now as Peter saying he would even die, but the fire tests what love we have, and I believe what reward we will receive.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #28 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 13:51:44 »
Larry, so you are asserting that apostasy does not mean falling away, just a momentary lapse? I always thought walking in the light covered that. We don't have to be sinless to be considered walking in the light.

I don't believe Peter apostasized. He had a lapse. He repented. Judas did not.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #29 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 14:02:30 »
When a Christian apostasizes, they turn away from God and do not repent. I have seen it several times. It is definitely NOT only people who were never saved that can apostasize. If Chjristian Apostasy is impossible, then there is a lot of inspired ink dedicated to warning against it. If we are not to have momentary lapses, which we all do, then we have no choice but to live perfect sinless lives, which is impossible.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #30 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 14:43:01 »
A faithful Christian falls and gets up. An apostate is a once faithful Chrisatian that has fallen and has chosen to stay down. A circumstance that is incongruent with walking in the light. Stumbling and falling, dusting one's self off and getting up to walk in the light, YES. Falling and staying down equals apostasy.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #31 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 14:46:37 »
Simple conclusion, if apostasy can't happen, then there is no need for concern NOW or the ENDTIMES.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #32 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 14:52:24 »
When a Christian apostasizes, they turn away from God and do not repent. I have seen it several times. It is definitely NOT only people who were never saved that can apostasize. If Chjristian Apostasy is impossible, then there is a lot of inspired ink dedicated to warning against it. If we are not to have momentary lapses, which we all do, then we have no choice but to live perfect sinless lives, which is impossible.

Do they lose their salvation, or is God able to make them stand and keep them? Was Judas, who was called the son of perdition a Christian, and only a mistake to be with Christ?

John 10:27  My (Jesus) sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus says we were given to Him by our Father and we can't get out of His or the Father's hand. Maybe you see it as hold on, and hold out, do not fall away, and whatever; I don't.

John 6:37  "All that the Father giveth me (That's me) shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." I may not remain faithful, but Jesus is faithful and cannot deny His own. I am His workmanship and He is going to continue that work in me until the day of Christ. I do hope I have the sense to continue in my walk with Him for my good.
 
 

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #33 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 15:03:12 »
Larry, I do believe no one is able to snatch us from God's hand, but we are all able to walk away from God under Free Will. If we can't, how do we express our love for him? Love requires a free will possibility of rejection, if not we are simply robots. Love can only be truly expressed if we truly have a choice not to love.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #34 on: Mon Dec 14, 2009 - 15:13:22 »
Larry, I do believe no one is able to snatch us from God's hand, but we are all able to walk away from God under Free Will. If we can't, how do we express our love for him? Love requires a free will possibility of rejection, if not we are simply robots. Love can only be truly expressed if we truly have a choice not to love.

So you are saying that when Jesus said He will in no wise cast us us out, it only meant if we are the faithful ones? Somehow in these things it always boils down to us that keeps us.