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Author Topic: Apostasy in the end times.  (Read 12005 times)

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larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #105 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:23:31 »

Thanks Yogi. Of course you know I do not believe we can lose our salvation, and so I will say right off that I believe our fellowship or state can be severed, but not our standing with God.

I believe we are God's workmanship, a work in progress and since He bought us with the price of His own blood He keeps us. If we walk in the light we have fellowship, we don't need correction, and He can fulfill the righteousness of the law in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If everything was up to us why would there even be chastisement to those He loves?

From what I gather if we get mad at God and walk away we no longer belong to Him according to what I've read here. If you come back such as the prodigal son, do you get baptized again; there are some that practice that? Enough of my madness. God bless you all. Does the one with a soiled white robe of righteousness go to hell? Oops, I just went over the speed limit - CRASH, and with no time to ask for forgiveness or repent or anything.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #105 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:23:31 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #106 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:26:56 »
Larry, if one has repented, his robe will no longer be soiled. If he hasn't, he is still soiled. Repentence does not equal sinless response, it means a turn of direction in our lives.

It's not perfection, it is the direction of the walk (in the light). Walking in the light does not equal walking sinlessly.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #106 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:26:56 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #107 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:30:01 »
One more time SLOWLY for clarity. Walking in the light DOES NOT mean walking sinlessly.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #108 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:35:31 »
There is always room for the backslider to come back to the Faith. Always. Until they turn a deaf ear to the Lord & continue sinning so that the Lord can take them out of this world due to sin.
Quote
Condemnation of the devil  --  that is, lost in eternity.

That may be true for Christian fundamentalists. But for Christian Universalists only the devil is lost- people are not lost in eternity.

People can be lost in this life.  And their life can be hell.  But we believe Christ finds every single last one of his sheep in the afterlife.


Actually fundamentalists are not the only people who believe in hell, it is an nearly universally accepted orthodox doctrine.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #108 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:35:31 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #109 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:38:26 »
Rezar, I don't have my bible handy, but whose smoke of their torment will rise forever?

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #109 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:38:26 »



Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #110 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:47:08 »
I believe its every one who takes the mark (i.e. people) and the devil with the false prophet (i.e. another person)...

But I have to check to be sure.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #111 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 14:54:40 »
There is always room for the backslider to come back to the Faith. Always. Until they turn a deaf ear to the Lord & continue sinning so that the Lord can take them out of this world due to sin.
Quote
Condemnation of the devil  --  that is, lost in eternity.

That may be true for Christian fundamentalists. But for Christian Universalists only the devil is lost- people are not lost in eternity.

People can be lost in this life.  And their life can be hell.  But we believe Christ finds every single last one of his sheep in the afterlife.


What do you think the second death (rev 20:6) is?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #112 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 15:16:50 »
Quote
From what I gather if we get mad at God and walk away we no longer belong to Him according to what I've read here. If you come back such as the prodigal son, do you get baptized again; there are some that practice that? Enough of my madness. God bless you all. Does the one with a soiled white robe of righteousness go to hell? Oops, I just went over the speed limit - CRASH, and with no time to ask for forgiveness or repent or anything.

Larry with all due respect rejecting Christ and speeding into a sudden crash are totally different. One is a person not willing to repent but right out rejection the other is one that would have, had he had the chance. The crash is trying to walk in the light but has things he is still dealing with, the rejection just does not care no more and is not walking in the light any longer.

Offline rezar

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #113 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 15:35:28 »
There is always room for the backslider to come back to the Faith. Always. Until they turn a deaf ear to the Lord & continue sinning so that the Lord can take them out of this world due to sin.
Quote
Condemnation of the devil  --  that is, lost in eternity.


That may be true for Christian fundamentalists. But for Christian Universalists only the devil is lost- people are not lost in eternity.

People can be lost in this life.  And their life can be hell.  But we believe Christ finds every single last one of his sheep in the afterlife.



What do you think the second death (rev 20:6) is?

The 2nd death is covenantal. After reading Jude & those old & new apostates being called "twice dead" he is referring to the apostate Jews, who neither kept the 1st covenant nor, in present time they were spots at their love feasts- wandering "stars." Jude even uses the hyperbole of "wandering stars of whom is reserved blackness forever."
http://pantelism.com/DeathIsCovenantal.htm

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #114 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 16:17:14 »
Your site pitches a false dichotomy, death in biblical terms can mean spiritual (Rom 6:4), physical (1Pe 3:18) or both (Jam 1:15).

Offline Azrael

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #115 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 16:25:45 »
Your site pitches a false dichotomy, death in biblical terms can mean spiritual (Rom 6:4), physical (1Pe 3:18) or both (Jam 1:15).

I would agree....... ::preachit::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #116 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 16:45:11 »
Your site pitches a false dichotomy, death in biblical terms can mean spiritual (Rom 6:4), physical (1Pe 3:18) or both (Jam 1:15).

Would that be a false trichotomy?

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #117 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 16:45:45 »
Larry, if one has repented, his robe will no longer be soiled. If he hasn't, he is still soiled. Repentence does not equal sinless response, it means a turn of direction in our lives.

It's not perfection, it is the direction of the walk (in the light). Walking in the light does not equal walking sinlessly.

You said our garments could be soiled - How do they get soiled?

Offline rezar

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #118 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 16:54:42 »
Your site pitches a false dichotomy, death in biblical terms can mean spiritual (Rom 6:4), physical (1Pe 3:18) or both (Jam 1:15).
Did they deny the obvious physical word "death?" No! Therefore they cannot be accused of anything false. I was referring to "the second death" about which the question was asked. Saying it was "covenantal" means it is not a literal corporeal "second death" as in "annihilation" or an eternal burning of the body either.
From my site:[ This whole issue of "death" in relation to Adam's stance before God is important to grasp. A big problem straight up front is the impasse over this whole "spiritual" versus "physical" death argument. It is an erroneous concept [Greek thinking] that has muddied the waters and brought much confusion and misunderstanding.

'Death' in the Scriptures is far more than just corporeal. In relation to our stance before God it is primarily covenantal i.e., RELATIONAL. Under the Old Covenant when someone was cast out of Israel they were out of covenant and therefore considered dead – their stance in fellowship was broken, they were out of fellowship with their brethren, the people of God, and therefore with God Himself – and this invariably due to sin. This is the "death" described in Eden, a covenantal or relational separation from God. Lk 15:11-32 reflects the truth of this brilliantly – the son that was lost [dead] is now found [alive]. ]


Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #119 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 17:12:35 »
Larry, our garments are always "soiled",  except when we are cleansed by the blood of Christ and according to 1 John, that happens IF we are walking in the light.

With blood - Unsoiled
Without Blood -Soiled

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #120 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 17:47:57 »

Well I couldn't draw it out, but Jesus is the light. He is presented in the glorious gospel and if have the love for our brethren the light will produce, there will be no occasion of stumbling in us.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #121 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 17:57:54 »
Well, let's walk in the light of Christ and it won't be an issue. There will be some that don't I believe. Some that have tasted the heavenly gift and the power thereof. Too many warnings of it in the NT.

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #122 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:07:00 »
Well, let's walk in the light of Christ and it won't be an issue. There will be some that don't I believe. Some that have tasted the heavenly gift and the power thereof. Too many warnings of it in the NT.

Yeah, I hope that no man takes thy crown.   ::smile::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #123 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:09:44 »
No other man but me can. I can give it back.

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #124 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:29:31 »
No other man but me can. I can give it back.

That's not what the Bible says; at least the KJV.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #125 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:32:28 »
Well, what does the KJV say?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #126 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:34:23 »
Are you saying the KJV says we can't cease walking in the light? If we can't John coulda saved a lot of ink in the book of 1 John.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #127 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:37:06 »
If no chance that we might cease walking in the light, there is no need for admonition TO walk in the light for us mind numbed robots.

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #128 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:42:52 »
Well, what does the KJV say?

Revelation 3:11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Then you must know what it takes to receive the crown.
 

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #129 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:58:01 »
That verse is talking about being fooled by false teachers.  That's how someone can "take your crown."  But you would have to agree, so...

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #130 on: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 18:59:45 »
Larry it's telling us to hold fast. As if there is a chance we won't. Why tell us to hold fast if there is no chance we won't?

« Last Edit: Tue Dec 15, 2009 - 20:49:50 by Jaime »

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #131 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 20:56:37 »
In this Generation , we have set the standard for apostasy. There have always been heretical views, of course, just as there have always been earthquakes, famines, and wars. But this generation has elevated it to an art form.The apostle Paul predicted that a time would come when men and women would turn away from the faith and instead embrace heresy. The drift tward apostasy, the true church of Jesus Christ has always been plagued by apostacy, but nothing like the present. The bible makes it clear that doctrinal confusion will rise to a crecendo in the latter days, leading many to depart from the faith as they eagerly follow deceiving spirits and willingly adopt doctrines of demons. After the catching away of those in Christ 1 thess 4 V 17 all who are truly in him will be gone. Conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they alredy have in thought. Then their insincerity will demonstrate itself outwardly. This worldwide anti God movement will be so universal as to earn itself a special designation, the apostasy.

Requote:
Quote
The bible makes it clear that doctrinal confusion will rise to a crecendo in the latter days, leading many to depart from the faith as they eagerly follow deceiving spirits and willingly adopt doctrines of demons.

You are making an assumption that the falling away in that passage refers to today (in other words, the latter days refers to now instead of some other time).

I believe this falling away occurred soon after the time of the apostles.  It can be compared to the books of Joshua and Judges.  The Israelites were faithful as long as Joshua and those who knew him were alive, but when those men were all gone there was a falling away by Israel.

Other than that, the whole topic has been OSAS?

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #132 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 21:33:28 »
Larry it's telling us to hold fast. As if there is a chance we won't. Why tell us to hold fast if there is no chance we won't?


Hi Jaime, hold fast to what; a crown? How was it gotten?

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #133 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 21:41:35 »
That verse is talking about being fooled by false teachers.  That's how someone can "take your crown."  But you would have to agree, so...

Dear Wycliffes_Shillelagh, where do you see false teachers in that; there are some claiming to be Jews, but those of Philadelphia are promised to be kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world for patiently keeping God's word. Again even in verse 11 what crown do they have that they can lose.

larry2

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #134 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 21:56:10 »

You are making an assumption that the falling away in that passage refers to today (in other words, the latter days refers to now instead of some other time).

I believe this falling away occurred soon after the time of the apostles.  It can be compared to the books of Joshua and Judges. The Israelites were faithful as long as Joshua and those who knew him were alive, but when those men were all gone there was a falling away by Israel.


Unless you are into Preterist doctrines there has no temptation to have come upon all the world as yet. Those of Philadelphia are promised to be kept from it which is to come.

Offline soterion

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #135 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 22:09:38 »
Unless you are into Preterist doctrines there has no temptation to have come upon all the world as yet. Those of Philadelphia are promised to be kept from it which is to come.


Nope, no Preterism here.

I believe it is incorrect to try and connect passages like Revelation 2-3 with Paul's account of apostasy in the church as if they have to be talking about the same events.  Paul seems to be describing people being led away from the truth by false teaching, which did happen not long after the time of the apostles, and John wrote to the churches in Asia about staying faithful in times of persecution.  Those churches existed in the time Revelation was written and those people were told to expect those things to happen to them in their day, not 2,000+ years later.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #136 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 22:10:36 »
Unless you are into Preterist doctrines there has no temptation to have come upon all the world as yet. Those of Philadelphia are promised to be kept from it which is to come.


Nope, no Preterism here.

I believe it is incorrect to try and connect passages like Revelation 2-3 with Paul's account of apostasy in the church as if they have to be talking about the same events.  Paul seems to be describing people being led away from the truth by false teaching, which did happen not long after the time of the apostles, and John wrote to the churches in Asia about staying faithful in times of persecution.  Those churches existed in the time Revelation was written and those people were told to expect those things to happen to them in their day, not 2,000+ years later.

The apostasy happened as soon as Pentecost was over.  It never takes long

Offline soterion

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #137 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 22:27:49 »
The apostasy happened as soon as Pentecost was over.  It never takes long


Well, I don't know what you mean by "as soon as Pentecost was over," but there was predicted a falling away in the future from the time Paul wrote his letters.

Paul also warned the elders of Ephesus about what will happen after his departure (Acts 20:29-31).  John also described a heresy (Gnosticism) to come to those in the church future to his warning them in the first letter.  While all of these passages are not necessarily describing the same heresies, the same churches, etc., they do describe particular events future to the time of the warnings recorded in the New Testament.

I just wouldn't project the fulfilment of those predictions to our time (the lasting effects- yes); I believe they occurred pretty quickly after they were written.

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Re: Apostasy in the end times.
« Reply #138 on: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 22:29:12 »
Larry it's telling us to hold fast. As if there is a chance we won't. Why tell us to hold fast if there is no chance we won't?


Hi Jaime, hold fast to what; a crown? How was it gotten?

I guess I'll let James and John answer: (I offer no interpretation)

Jas 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to them that love him.

Joh 14:15  If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 16, 2009 - 22:46:48 by Jaime »

 

     
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