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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 21:54:45 »
1. (LUKE 23:42-43) It tells us that ONE of the men Hanging besides Jesus ask Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes into HIS KINGDOM
2. Jesus replies: Verily I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

There are 2 ways to read this:
1. That Jesus told this man he would be with Jesus in paradise THIS very day (day they die)
2. That Jesus only made the promise THAT day to the man.

The THINKER believes in the 1st one, that the day we die were with Jesus in Heaven.
I say it's the second.
1. Jesus wasn't into his kingdom THAT very day so the man couldn't be with him.
2. Paradise is HEAVEN (2cor 12:4. -  Rev 2:7)
3. Jesus isn't in His kingdom (1000 yr reign)
SO this isn't a verse to use!!! As Jesus was talking that that day a promise was made.


Dan 11:44 are the armies of (east) CHINA. (north) RUSSIA
11:45 is the Antichrist armys and the FIRST army for Armageddon.
Dan 12:1 tells us the time of the rapture (when those in book of life) shall be delivered.
A. This is ALL believers as it's the book of life
B. Believers (ALL who are in the book of life) WHICH IS BOTH LIVING and DEAD believers.
Dan 12:2 says that many who sleep will awake to life (book of life 12:1)
and some to shame.
A. This is when BOTH the LIVING and the DEAD (rev 1:7) see Christ at THE SAME TIME!
Verse 12:4 tells us it the time of the end! And we know it is NOW when knowledge is increasing at it's highest rate and what this verse is talking about

This is worldly knowledge!
In Amos 8:11 we see that a FAMINE of GODS word in the last days. Which is NOW.

We see that BOTH Dan 12 says at same time as the dead believers (which is MOST believers) wake from sleep to find EVERLASTING LIFE! so these DEAD don't know that YET!

This is echoed in 1thess 4:13-18
13: were told not to WORRY about those WHO SLEEP that we will see them again.
14: that God will bring the DEAD with him (they are dead) if the Dead are with him in their new bodies then why are they referred to as DEAD?
A. God has to raise (bring) the dead to life and they DONT COME FROM THE GROUND (not their souls) their earthly body comes from ground (changed) when it rises out of the Gound.
15:those alive at rapture won't stop the dead from rising from their SLEEP.
16:the dead rise FIRST (we won't prevent their rising)
A. FIRST... which means someone else's rises second.
Again they rise first cause we won't stop them from rising (which means their first)
17: THEN, WHEN? THEN as in NEXT! the living who didn't prevent the dead to rise FIRST will then be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER! At the same time to meet for the FIRST TIME Jesus Christ.

 
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:23:48 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

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Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 21:54:45 »

Offline fenton

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:08:37 »
1. (LUKE 23:42-43) It tells us that ONE of the men Hanging besides Jesus ask Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes into HIS KINGDOM
2. Jesus replies: Verily I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

There are 2 ways to read this:
1. That Jesus told this man he would be with Jesus in paradise THIS very day (day they die)
2. That Jesus only made the promise THAT day to the man.

The THINKER believes in the 1st one, that the day we die were with Jesus in Heaven.
I say it's the second.
1. Jesus wasn't into his kingdom THAT very day so the man couldn't be with him.
2. Paradise is HEAVEN (2cor 12:4. -  Rev 2:7)
3. Jesus isn't in His kingdom (1000 yr reign)


Dan 11:44 are the armies of (east) CHINA. (north) RUSSIA
11:45 is the Antichrist armys and the FIRST army for Armageddon.
Dan 12:1 tells us the time of the rapture (when those in book of life) shall be delivered.
A. This is ALL believers as it's the book of life
B. Believers (ALL who are in the book of life) WHICH IS BOTH LIVING and DEAD believers.
Dan 12:2 says that many who sleep will awake to life (book of life 12:1)
and some to shame.
A. This is when BOTH the LIVING and the DEAD (rev 1:7) see Christ at THE SAME TIME!
Verse 12:4 tells us it the time of the end! And we know it is NOW when knowledge is increasing at it's highest rate and what this verse is talking about

This is worldly knowledge!
In Amos 8:11 we see that a FAMINE of GODS word in the last days. Which is NOW.

This isn't all but tonight it is....
 

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:08:37 »

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:25:59 »

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?

Where do we go...I thought to be absent from the body meant we would be present to be with Jesus?
"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Philippians 1:22-24)

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:29:11 »
1. (LUKE 23:42-43) It tells us that ONE of the men Hanging besides Jesus ask Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes into HIS KINGDOM
2. Jesus replies: Verily I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

There are 2 ways to read this:
1. That Jesus told this man he would be with Jesus in paradise THIS very day (day they die)
2. That Jesus only made the promise THAT day to the man.

The THINKER believes in the 1st one, that the day we die were with Jesus in Heaven.
I say it's the second.
1. Jesus wasn't into his kingdom THAT very day so the man couldn't be with him.
2. Paradise is HEAVEN (2cor 12:4. -  Rev 2:7)
3. Jesus isn't in His kingdom (1000 yr reign)


Dan 11:44 are the armies of (east) CHINA. (north) RUSSIA
11:45 is the Antichrist armys and the FIRST army for Armageddon.
Dan 12:1 tells us the time of the rapture (when those in book of life) shall be delivered.
A. This is ALL believers as it's the book of life
B. Believers (ALL who are in the book of life) WHICH IS BOTH LIVING and DEAD believers.
Dan 12:2 says that many who sleep will awake to life (book of life 12:1)
and some to shame.
A. This is when BOTH the LIVING and the DEAD (rev 1:7) see Christ at THE SAME TIME!
Verse 12:4 tells us it the time of the end! And we know it is NOW when knowledge is increasing at it's highest rate and what this verse is talking about

This is worldly knowledge!
In Amos 8:11 we see that a FAMINE of GODS word in the last days. Which is NOW.

This isn't all but tonight it is....
 

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?


No. Jesus isn't in his kingdom yet (1000 yr reign)
he waits till God makes his enemy's his footstool. (heb 10:13)
I added this above:

We see that BOTH Dan 12 says at same time as the dead believers (which is MOST believers) wake from sleep to find EVERLASTING LIFE! so these DEAD don't know that YET!

This is echoed in 1thess 4:13-18
13: were told not to WORRY about those WHO SLEEP that we will see them again.
14: that God will bring the DEAD with him (they are dead) if the Dead are with him in their new bodies then why are they referred to as DEAD?
A. God has to raise (bring) the dead to life and they DONT COME FROM THE GROUND (not their souls) their earthly body comes from ground (changed) when it rises out of the Gound.
15:those alive at rapture won't stop the dead from rising from their SLEEP.
16:the dead rise FIRST (we won't prevent their rising)
A. FIRST... which means someone else's rises second.
Again they rise first cause we won't stop them from rising (which means their first)
17: THEN, WHEN? THEN as in NEXT! the living who didn't prevent the dead to rise FIRST will then be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER! At the same time to meet for the FIRST TIME Jesus Christ.

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:29:11 »

Offline fenton

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:30:13 »

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?

Where do we go...I thought to be absent from the body meant we would be present to be with Jesus?
"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Philippians 1:22-24)

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Grace I believe that with all my heart. I was just asking KB.

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:30:13 »



Offline fenton

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:33:30 »
KB are you talking about "soul sleep", or that we go somewhere else before we go to heaven?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:38:18 »

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?

Where do we go...I thought to be absent from the body meant we would be present to be with Jesus?
"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Philippians 1:22-24)

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

We are not absent from this body until we are changed in the twinkle of an eye from corruptable to incorruptible (1Cor 15:52) which happens at our gathering together with Christ (2thess1:-2:3)

we see in 1 COR 15:51 that we BELIEVERS shall not all sleep (there are those who are still alive at his coming) But we shall be changed (52) and AGAIN the DEAD shall what? rise with their new bodies.


Ofcourse not all will sleep but the living get this new body at the time the DEAD do also!

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:53:15 »
According to Scripture, the soul leaves the body at death. The Gospels tell us that at the moment of his death, Jesus prayed, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:56:02 »

If we die today, right this minute we do not go to heaven to be with Jesus?

Where do we go...I thought to be absent from the body meant we would be present to be with Jesus?
"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Philippians 1:22-24)

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:56:49 »
According to Scripture, the soul leaves the body at death. The Gospels tell us that at the moment of his death, Jesus prayed, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 23:05:50 »
According to Scripture, the soul leaves the body at death. The Gospels tell us that at the moment of his death, Jesus prayed, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!

Offline fenton

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 23:08:55 »
Where did lazerous go, wasn't he in abbrahams arms. And the rich man was not asleep, he could see lazaerous?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 23:38:02 »
Where did lazerous go, wasn't he in abbrahams arms. And the rich man was not asleep, he could see lazaerous?

Luke 16:20-31
22. 1.we see both are dead
A. Lazarus is in abram bosom
B. Rich man's in HELL - (Jews teach that abrams bosoms a seprate part in hell.)
C. They can see each other.

The rich man is buried. And you assume that he goes straight to HELL?

How do you know this isn't Heaven? With HELL outside the gates, where they could still see one another....

Rev 22:14-15 tells us blessed is those who can enter THROUGH THE GATES of the CITY
15: tells us just outside those Gates are unbelievers - who can see through the gates and also can then see anyone coming or going (believers) we see in verse 12 Christ coming for his bride to take her to THIS CITY.

So who's to say that these two speak here and this is during jesus's 1000 yr reign on Earth. Where all will be under his rod of iron.... (unbelievers) after all we rule and reign with Christ over someone.... And that someone is all the eyes BOTH dead and living who see his coming. All the dead will see this and go through Gods wrath of Rev 6:16)

also when the rich man was told that his brothers wouldn't believe even if a dead man came back (lazareth) but Abram WASNT talking about him rising(lazareth) from the dead but JESUS rising from the dead. That they wouldn't still believe.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 23:44:58 »
Another important example is the appearance of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. The Word of God specifically states that Moses died and was buried by God in a valley in Moab opposite Beth Peor (Deut 34:5-6). Yet, when Jesus was transfigured almost 1500 years later, Moses appeared “in glory

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 00:15:57 »
Quote
1.Christ gave up his SPIRIT NOT SOUL - he gave up the Holy spirit!
2. Stephen fell ASLEEP
3. Ecc12:7) the holy spirit
soul and spirit are not the same. Everyone has a soul but only believers have both a soul and spirit!

If you believe still the same way then what about the scriptures I use that show this is wrong (belief that dead are in heaven)


Paul explains it well.......

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

By placing the Word of God in your mind, it becomes the standard for all of your thought, and it directs the intents of your mind, which is you heart. Christ is the Living Word, and He can discern the intent of your mind, you can't fool Him. Within man's soul is his spirit, and the spirit is the intellect part of His thought process.

You have to be able to separate those things to understand the resurrection. Paul is now going to explain our flesh body to us, not the soul, the spirit, or our thought process, but our flesh and blood body.

I Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

Paul is comparing our flesh body with other living things, such as a grain of wheat. When the seed is separated from its parent plant it is as naked as a new born baby. This is the body of the wheat, and this is not the grain that you see coming for in new plants next year. This seed of wheat that you set aside for the next years crop is what must die before it can raise up again in a new form. That body of wheat is gone, and that is what happens to our flesh. It must die before the new beautiful spiritual body can come forth.

The flesh body must die and be buried in the ground, for no where is it recorded that a flesh body will resurrect from the dead. Christ's body did rise again, for it paid the price for our sins for one and all times. However, when Christ's body came out of the tomb, it had to be transfigured or flesh man simply could not see Him.

The body of the wheat or of flesh that dies and is planted in the ground is not the same body that springs forth into new life. It is the Spiritual body that ascends to be with the Father, not the flesh. Again the subject is the physical body.

When you plant any seed, flowers, corn, or wheat, there is an embryo deep inside of the body of that plant. As the body of the parent plant decays, it feeds this little embryo that is deep within that seed or kernel of corn. Then when the water, and temperature, and soil are just right, then that embryo springs forth into new life, and a new plant is formed. That is exactly as it is with our flesh body, the old flesh body must die before the new life of our new spiritual of soul body can come forth. The time that it takes for the new spiritual life to come from the death of the old flesh body is instant.

The instant that the flesh body dies, the soul and spirit body is present with the Lord that gave it in the first place. The flesh decays back into the elements of the earth that it is made of, and your soul returns to the Father. Paul could not have made it more simpler than the using of a grain of wheat in comparison to our flesh bodies. Just as all of nature functions, so it is with man.

I Corinthians 15:38 "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body."

The body that you have was given to you because it pleased God. We are talking about physical bodies now, and not the souls. Your body was given to your soul for the sake of pleasing God with it, and that is the only purpose that your soul exists in your physical body. Though the flesh body may miss a limb or part, the spiritual body within is still whole and complete. In all of nature, all seeds within them have their embryos for the sake of continuing life after they are gone.


I Corinthians 15:39 "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."


All souls when they return to the Father will at first rejoice, then some will have their countenance fall as they are sent to the other side of the gulf. The question here and now is, why would you even listen to any minister that would teach "soul sleep" which condemns a man to hell. Hell simply will not exist until after the Millennium age and the Great white throne judgment, and each soul has been judged?

If they would be so careless with God's Word on these matters, what kind of God is this man teaching you? Our God is fair, and He would not burn someone in hell before they are even judged. Our God is a loving God and He desire that no one be destroyed until after they have been instructed and given a choice to chose for themselves. Because of what is being taught today and during the time of the great deception, there will be a Millennium age. If you are sent to hell it is of your own choice. Thank God it is God that does the judging and not some one verse super preacher of today.

Those people that teach that the dead body is going to rise up out of the grave simply don't know what they are talking about. Flesh causes you to sin, and when we are done with this flesh body, it is done away with. Why would you want any part of that old decaying body. The flesh body dies to give your spiritual body new life and a new body that will not age and get sick.

I Corinthians 15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

We are still taking about bodies, and not souls. "celestial bodies" are heavenly bodies, while "terrestrial bodies" are earthly bodies. Paul is telling you that within what you call "self", you have two bodies, and earthly body that will die off and return to the elements that it is made of, and a heavenly body or soul that at the death of the earthly body returns to the heavenly realm or dimension that it came from. Each of the bodies have their own glory or dignity and honor.

I Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

This is as it is, and it is for this reason that God calls His children "stars". God asked Job to give Him answer to this question in Job 38. Job 38:7; "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Each of the stars are different and so are each of the children that God created. Every one of them has a different body. Yet every last one of them was created for God's pleasure.

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."

I Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

This is what happens to the dead body, for this body is doomed to corruption of decay from the day each of us are born, to the day we die. That is the ageing process, and no matter how you try to extend your life, it will not be for more than a few years. When this flesh body is finished, the soul that is within it is raised in incorruption. We are talking about flesh bodies, and what happen to them.

We will be getting deeper into the difference between these two bodies, the corruptible body which ages, and is made of the dust and elements of the earth; and the incorruptible body which shall never age and get old. It will look the same through a thousand years as the day that it was created. It never gets sick, and has complete knowledge and recall. The difference between the two of these bodies is one is of flesh, while the other is spiritual and of a different realm.

Our flesh bodies are corruptible, and it is the greatest pollutant on the face of this earth. It is for the satisfaction of the needs of the flesh that all pollution is caused, whether in the air, in the waters, or across our land, all pollution is for the satisfying of these flesh bodies that are corrupting or decaying and need attention to be repaired. Flesh is corruptible. However when the corruptible body is planted in the earth, a new body comes for that does not desire nor need then things of the flesh to satisfy its needs. This new body is our incorruptible soul body.

I Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"

In the flesh body we fall short all of the time, whereas when our soul body is raised we have God's power within us. In that new body we will have that body that is not weak nor will it get sick and age. And when we are raised it is like being turned lose into a freedom that these fleshly minds can never understand. We are never to shorten the time in this flesh body that God has given us for we have a duty and mission here in the flesh, but on that day when it is all over, we will have that glory and power God has placed in our new incorruptible body.

In Adam we all die in the flesh, but in Christ we are raised incorruptible. Even sinners are replenished and brought back to their incorruptible state, some to be held for judgment and their trial and some for eternal rewards. Your flesh body is not what is judged, but your soul that is within that flesh body is returned to the Lord to for its rewards.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

http://www.theseason.org/1corin/1corin15.htm


Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 07:36:31 »
Where did lazerous go, wasn't he in abbrahams arms. And the rich man was not asleep, he could see lazaerous?

The Hebrew word Sheol is equivalent to the Greek word Hades, and they refer to a temporary "prison" where the spirits of all of the unrighteous people throughout history will remain until Judgment Day.

The Greek word Tartarus refers to a "dungeon" (possibly within Hades) in which certain fallen angels are being held until Judgment Day.

Hades is described as being under (or inside) the earth.

The Greek word Gehenna is equivalent to the Lake of Fire, and this is the place where all of the unrighteous people throughout history will be tormented day and night (along with the devil and his demons). This is probably the place that most people would associate with the English word "Hell."

 "Paradise" was a compartment within Hades in which the spirits of all of the righteous people were held until after Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension into Heaven.

Jesus went down to Hades after He died, and then He took the Paradise compartment of Hades up into Heaven. So Paradise and all of the Old Testament saints are now in Heaven, and Christians go straight to Heaven when we die (rather than going down to Hades first).

I have scriptures for all of this but it will be a long post.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 08:37:07 »
To the OP (Knowledge bomb):

Your question is flawed in that it assumes that heaven/paradise/sheol has the same chronology as what we experience.

I would submit that they do not. God's "today" shows him creation and the final judgement all together. He is outside of our timezone.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 09:13:29 »
So let's look at this last post and see if any of THESE hold water.
So far only Moses have I no final answer too (I did give an answer though)

let's start with 1 cor 15:22 - for as Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

V. 17 says if Christ hasn't risen, we believe in vain. (alive believers)
V. 18 says ALL who what? SLEEP IN CHRIST (in Christ means saved believers ONLY)
     That their Bodies and souls go to nothing (perished) these are DEAD believers
v. 19 says Paul is miserable in this life and only has hope of Christ!
V. 20 says Christ is the FIRSTFRUIT of those who will rise in Christ. (these are dead who SLEEP)
v. 21 says that Adam through sin brought Death - by another man (Christ) came RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.... (those who sleep)
v. 22 (adam all die) only those without salvation DIE in Adam!
         (Jesus SHALL make all alive) only those who accept Christ are made alive.
V. 23 says Everyman in his own order (saved or unsaved)
     A. Christ is firstfruits (when he raised from dead)
     B. AFTERWARD (not at death!) THEY at HIS COMING (rapture) and SLEEP (v.20) are then raised!

This tells us that those who sleep will because of Christ being the fristfruit also rise!


The HEB verse also says NOTHING OF THE DEAD going right to heaven at death!

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 09:42:06 »
So let's look at this last post and see if any of THESE hold water.
So far only Moses have I no final answer too (I did give an answer though)

let's start with 1 cor 15:22 - for as Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

V. 17 says if Christ hasn't risen, we believe in vain. (alive believers)
V. 18 says ALL who what? SLEEP IN CHRIST (in Christ means saved believers ONLY)
     That their Bodies and souls go to nothing (perished) these are DEAD believers
v. 19 says Paul is miserable in this life and only has hope of Christ!
V. 20 says Christ is the FIRSTFRUIT of those who will rise in Christ. (these are dead who SLEEP)
v. 21 says that Adam through sin brought Death - by another man (Christ) came RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.... (those who sleep)
v. 22 (adam all die) only those without salvation DIE in Adam!
         (Jesus SHALL make all alive) only those who accept Christ are made alive.
V. 23 says Everyman in his own order (saved or unsaved)
     A. Christ is firstfruits (when he raised from dead)
     B. AFTERWARD (not at death!) THEY at HIS COMING (rapture) and SLEEP (v.20) are then raised!

This tells us that those who sleep will because of Christ being the fristfruit also rise!


The HEB verse also says NOTHING OF THE DEAD going right to heaven at death!

John saw a vision of heaven, he saw the souls of dead saints there:

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)
In the above passage, the souls of dead saints are not sleeping (dead). Instead, they continue to have their own memories and feelings, and they are able to communicate, and so on.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 10:21:21 »
To the OP (Knowledge bomb):

Your question is flawed in that it assumes that heaven/paradise/sheol has the same chronology as what we experience.

I would submit that they do not. God's "today" shows him creation and the final judgement all together. He is outside of our timezone.
 

Flawed?

First it is NOT a question. It is in reply to those who believe and teach that when we die we go to heaven that moment.....

2. Gods today is all together...(you say)
A. Who created time?
B. While God has no yesterday or tomorrow, he still operates With time, but is not bound by it.

There's a difference between God being timeless and God working with time

The bible is time, the days and weeks HE created to work with us and let believers know what's going to happen and in what timing.


Since you submit it does not, this is assumption without scripture to back you up...
 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 10:41:18 »
So let's look at this last post and see if any of THESE hold water.
So far only Moses have I no final answer too (I did give an answer though)

let's start with 1 cor 15:22 - for as Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

V. 17 says if Christ hasn't risen, we believe in vain. (alive believers)
V. 18 says ALL who what? SLEEP IN CHRIST (in Christ means saved believers ONLY)
     That their Bodies and souls go to nothing (perished) these are DEAD believers
v. 19 says Paul is miserable in this life and only has hope of Christ!
V. 20 says Christ is the FIRSTFRUIT of those who will rise in Christ. (these are dead who SLEEP)
v. 21 says that Adam through sin brought Death - by another man (Christ) came RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.... (those who sleep)
v. 22 (adam all die) only those without salvation DIE in Adam!
         (Jesus SHALL make all alive) only those who accept Christ are made alive.
V. 23 says Everyman in his own order (saved or unsaved)
     A. Christ is firstfruits (when he raised from dead)
     B. AFTERWARD (not at death!) THEY at HIS COMING (rapture) and SLEEP (v.20) are then raised!

This tells us that those who sleep will because of Christ being the fristfruit also rise!


The HEB verse also says NOTHING OF THE DEAD going right to heaven at death!

John saw a vision of heaven, he saw the souls of dead saints there:

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)
In the above passage, the souls of dead saints are not sleeping (dead). Instead, they continue to have their own memories and feelings, and they are able to communicate, and so on.


1. Then only those KILLED are in heaven?
2. This would mean that the dead go to wait under an altar?
3. When Cain killed Abel, Abel being rightouseness, his blood cried out to God!
A. So this could be along the same lines....(Could) be

they want their blood avenged - notice that this is only those Slain....and only others slain (v.11) are to be added to these.....

Most believers are not slain... Since paul in2 thess tells all believers to rest with paul.
And all believers MUST rest, and Paul says to rest till our gathering together with Christ...
This doesn't show anything other than a one time wait for ALL dead or alive.
 
See my staring OP to see the 2nd thess in more detail...

Paul is clear he tells all believers to rest with them(Paul) till the gathering of All those believers who rest (all believers must enter Gods rest) and at one event Paul is going with All who rest.

That's everyone!!!!

 


Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 10:47:36 »
Flawed?

First it is NOT a question.
Um - if the title is not a question Then I do not know much.
Quote
It is in reply to those who believe and teach that when we die we go to heaven that moment.....

I do not know how the title is a reply to that.
Quote
2. Gods today is all together...(you say)
A. Who created time?
B. While God has no yesterday or tomorrow, he still operates With time, but is not bound by it.
A - God created time. (Gen 1)
B - true.  He also seems to exist outside it altogether.
Quote
There's a difference between God being timeless and God working with time
Agreed. God certainly works with his creation.
Quote
The bible is time, the days and weeks HE created to work with us and let believers know what's going to happen and in what timing.
Yes - to those of us living in the space time world HE made. Since we cannot trancend time in this life, the bible is written from that perspective. But once we die we are outside of that realm.  We enter eternity.
Quote
Since you submit it does not, this is assumption without scripture to back you up...
 
Like I said, there is no hard and fast scripture on this.  But passages like Isa 46. 9-10 where it ties together the end and the beginning seem to indicate that HE is simultaneously present in both.

To get a picture of it, I think of a reel of audio tape or a movie. Where am I in relation to the flow of music/events on that tape or film? If something or someone exits that reel at some point, where are THEY in relation to the flow of events?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:03:55 »
GRACE said:
The Greek word Gehenna is equivalent to the Lake of Fire, and this is the place where all of the unrighteous people throughout history will be tormented day and night (along with the devil and his demons). This is probably the place that most people would associate with the English word "Hell."

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Hell and the lake of fire are TWO different places.... Rev 20:14 tells us death and hell are THROWN into the lake of fire (no more death or hell).
2. This HELL is the Greek HADES. (20:14) (strongs #86)
3. GEENNA (gheh-en-nah) was a valley south of Jerusalem where they dumped (burned) their gabarge (valley of hinnom or Gehenna. (strongs #1067)
 
while it was used (fig) as a name or state (place) but it is NOT the lake of fire or even hell.    


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:15:08 »
Flawed?

First it is NOT a question.
Um - if the title is not a question Then I do not know much.
Quote
It is in reply to those who believe and teach that when we die we go to heaven that moment.....

I do not know how the title is a reply to that.
Quote
2. Gods today is all together...(you say)
A. Who created time?
B. While God has no yesterday or tomorrow, he still operates With time, but is not bound by it.
A - God created time. (Gen 1)
B - true.  He also seems to exist outside it altogether.
Quote
There's a difference between God being timeless and God working with time
Agreed. God certainly works with his creation.
Quote
The bible is time, the days and weeks HE created to work with us and let believers know what's going to happen and in what timing.
Yes - to those of us living in the space time world HE made. Since we cannot trancend time in this life, the bible is written from that perspective. But once we die we are outside of that realm.  We enter eternity.
Quote
Since you submit it does not, this is assumption without scripture to back you up...
 
Like I said, there is no hard and fast scripture on this.  But passages like Isa 46. 9-10 where it ties together the end and the beginning seem to indicate that HE is simultaneously present in both.

To get a picture of it, I think of a reel of audio tape or a movie. Where am I in relation to the flow of music/events on that tape or film? If something or someone exits that reel at some point, where are THEY in relation to the flow of events?

I know it seems a question but it was more a POKE at those who teach that when you die you go straight to heaven... You had to be there.....

The whole point of time is kinda lost on what it is where saying (somewhat)

if you die right this second, they say you go right to heaven... After this death (we) have no time.
But..... Since they put the "time" to it by saying right after death, I say scripture says otherwise and have answered their proof....

Now by what were discusing, we either die and sleep or die and go.

If time does or does not affect us, we are affected by if we go or stay and since death would be a event of time, what happens next also falls into time... Either we go or sleep.


So there's no flaw in my post.... As you either sleep or go but for sure you do one or the other...

I guess the easiest way to clear it is, if Joe dies
at noon, at 12:15 I'm sitting here and joes in heaven...
Joe has no time but I do... Understand...?
That's what their saying which isn't true.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:22:34 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:35:46 »
If joe died at 12 noon today (33 minutes ago) he arrives in Eternity. 

If my yet to be born great grandson dies 80 or 100 years from now he ends up in Eternity.

They both go to the same place and arrive together. what they experience there has nothing to do with our sense of time passing.

Going back to the film reel.  If some one dies and falls out from frame 10 and someone dies and falls out at frame 1,000,010, they both come out (to us not in the film) together.  But the film may have hours between projecting those frames.

Do you get it now?

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:57:38 »
DAVE W says:
If joe died at 12 noon today (33 minutes ago) he arrives in Eternity. 

If my yet to be born great grandson dies 80 or 100 years from now he ends up in Eternity.

They both go to the same place and arrive together. what they experience there has nothing to do with our sense of time passing.

Going back to the film reel.  If some one dies and falls out from frame 10 and someone dies and falls out at frame 1,000,010, they both come out (to us not in the film) together.  But the film may have hours between projecting those frames.

Do you get it now?

END DAVEW END


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

if Joe dies now HE SLEEPS - he's unaware of eternity
yes they end up the same place at the same time - this is what Ive been saying

no they don't know time but you still don't get the point, it's not about what they know it's about what those living know... And that's if at this second someone dies, what's next... Something has to be next... Either sleep or not...

If you die right now, then what? You don't have to be aware of time to have something happen.
And since the living are talking about scripture, and what's happens next and.... The bible teaches that when we die we sleep.... Doesn't matter if we know of time.
 



 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 12:00:46 »
Davew your talking about what the dead know after death
and I'm talking what the bible teaches when it comes to what happens after death.

Two different things

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 12:34:13 »
GRACE said:
The Greek word Gehenna is equivalent to the Lake of Fire, and this is the place where all of the unrighteous people throughout history will be tormented day and night (along with the devil and his demons). This is probably the place that most people would associate with the English word "Hell."

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Hell and the lake of fire are TWO different places.... Rev 20:14 tells us death and hell are THROWN into the lake of fire (no more death or hell).
2. This HELL is the Greek HADES. (20:14) (strongs #86)
3. GEENNA (gheh-en-nah) was a valley south of Jerusalem where they dumped (burned) their gabarge (valley of hinnom or Gehenna. (strongs #1067)
 
while it was used (fig) as a name or state (place) but it is NOT the lake of fire or even hell.     


You did not read the whole post did you! I said most people associate it with Hell Idid not say it was the same!
Hades is Hell!

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 12:54:55 »
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8

When we are  physically dead our spirit is separted from our body. The question is where are these spirits that have separted from their bodies?

Spirits do not sleep? Does God sleep? Do demons sleep? Why would we thing human spirits sleep?

In Rev.6 ...the souls of dead saints are not sleeping. Instead, they continue to have their own memories and feelings, and they are able to communicate, and so on.

In Luke 16:22-25
Jesus described the souls of dead people (Rich man and Lazareth) with memories and feelings and desires, and these departed spirits are able to recognize and communicate with each other. They are not "soul sleeping."

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Philippians 1:22-24)

Paul did not say or imply that he was looking forward to seeing Christ after a long "sleep," but instead Paul was looking forward to "departing and being with Christ." When we depart our bodies then we are with Christ in Heaven.

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water" (1 Peter 3:18-20)

The above passage mentions people who were disobedient in Noah's time, and it says that their spirits are in "prison" (in Hades), which fits perfectly with Luke 16:22-25.

The only thing in the grave...buried under the dirt is a body...a decaying body!!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 13:00:04 »

You did not read the whole post did you! I said most people associate it with Hell Idid not say it was the same!
Hades is Hell!

I did read all your whole post. while you did say most people use the English word of hell to stand for hades BUT, you DID say Gehanna and the lake of fire are the same and this is not true...

GRACE said:

The Greek word Gehenna is equivalent to the Lake of Fire, and this is the place where all of the unrighteous people throughout history will be tormented day and night (along with the devil and his demons).

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 14:31:15 »
Grace, you last post #28 has some questions I already answered to...

But you say Paul teaches that he doesn't know if he should stay or be with Christ.
And this you say proves your point.

Well let's see.....

1. When Paul dies, he sleeps.... To Paul it will SEEM as if he died and here's comes Jesus (rapture)
this is what I say!
2. So to Paul to die IS to be with Christ. Also Paul cannot see Jesus if he lives so he has to die in order to see Christ.....

Now if 2 scriptures seem t. Conflict each other, we know this can't be... So how do we fond out what is true.... First we take scripture that IS clear and that which is not should fit right in....


So let's see what Paul really teaches about if the dead are in heaven when they die or.... If we all go together.....

Now I'm gonna say this says we SLEEP and I would like to ask you to take the Same scripture and show me how I have it wrong....

Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?



Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 15:40:40 »
Grace, you last post #28 has some questions I already answered to...

But you say Paul teaches that he doesn't know if he should stay or be with Christ.
And this you say proves your point.

Well let's see.....

1. When Paul dies, he sleeps.... To Paul it will SEEM as if he died and here's comes Jesus (rapture)
this is what I say!
2. So to Paul to die IS to be with Christ. Also Paul cannot see Jesus if he lives so he has to die in order to see Christ.....

Now if 2 scriptures seem t. Conflict each other, we know this can't be... So how do we fond out what is true.... First we take scripture that IS clear and that which is not should fit right in....


So let's see what Paul really teaches about if the dead are in heaven when they die or.... If we all go together.....

Now I'm gonna say this says we SLEEP and I would like to ask you to take the Same scripture and show me how I have it wrong....

Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?




When death is referred to as "sleep" in the Bible, people sometimes assume that death must be a state in which we are completely unaware ("asleep") until we are resurrected. But is "sleep" meant to be taken literally when it refers to death?

Consider that if we say, "Blackbeard's ship was sunk, and now he's sleeping with the fishes," this is simply a figurative way of saying that he's dead. Or if we say, "Johnnie is dead to the world," this is simply a figurative way of saying that he's sleeping soundly. So in modern times we sometimes use the word "sleep" as a figurative reference to death, and we sometimes use the word "dead" as a figurative reference to sleep.

"After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"" (John 11:11-14)
Notice that Jesus told the disciples plainly that Lazarus was dead, because they misunderstood His figurative language when He said that Lazarus was "sleeping." Jesus was using figurative language, not teaching a doctrine of "soul sleep."


Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 17:50:31 »
Davew your talking about what the dead know after death
and I'm talking what the bible teaches when it comes to what happens after death.

Two different things
Perhaps.  But your proposition assumes that time as we know it continues for the dead.  Those who say there is a waiting place where the dead are conscious until the resurrection also assume that.

Both periods of waiting are not entirely scriptural.  The conscious crowd have some support in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but as it is a parable meant to illustrate a point, (and that point is NOT how the afterlife works) I take its value as limited.

Offline fenton

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 17:54:04 »
I can't imagine sleeping for 1,999 years boy that would be rough on my back.   ::smile::

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 11:43:59 »
Davew your talking about what the dead know after death
and I'm talking what the bible teaches when it comes to what happens after death.

Two different things
Perhaps.  But your proposition assumes that time as we know it continues for the dead.  Those who say there is a waiting place where the dead are conscious until the resurrection also assume that.

Both periods of waiting are not entirely scriptural.  The conscious crowd have some support in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but as it is a parable meant to illustrate a point, (and that point is NOT how the afterlife works) I take its value as limited.

the bible clearly teaches sleep, but let's see about what you say dealing with lazareth....

Paul CLEARLY TEACHES that ALL are to rest until Christ comes!

Paul as GRACE pointed out says:
I don't know if I should stay here (earth) or go to be with Jesus..

Now Paul says that all are to rest till we go to be with Jesus.(rapture)
when Paul dies... To him it will SEEM as if he just dies amd there's Jesus! Same with ALL people believers or not.... For ALL eyes will see Jesus amd the rapture.... But it only seems like Paul dies and goes instantly to the gathering in the clouds.... Pauls unaware of 2012.

Now lazareth dies and rich man both die, both sleep and both awaken one to life and one to shame. But all awake at same time and that's when all eyes see the rapture....

Davew you and they have nothing to make your claim (yours being they had something)

how anyone can get around pauls telling EVERY believer to wait with them till the gathering together, and still you think it's another way!?! 


Traditions of men..... You were shown scripture that supported someones view and this is how you know they might be lying to you.... They never show you the scripture I showed you because it would conflict with their beliefs....

If you teach Christ has come
there's a pre tribulation rapture
once saved always saved
or
the dead are with Christ

I can use the bible and defeat these beliefs! As their all false!

If you can deal with Paul in 2 thess as I said, then you have a problem with your belief...

I use to believe osas and the pre trib rapture until I got tried of everybody saying different things so I found out what it said and not what someone said it said...

I found I had been lied to!  Cause pastors are TAUGHT what the bible says!
That's why were not to be taught by man, only let man show you but you see if what they say is true or not...

Do this test!!!

And see if you think or just listened to what your taught..

You see lightning flash in the sky... You count one two three four and when you get to six, you hear thunder..... How far was the lightning away?

If you say 6 miles you way off as it's less than a mile away!

How many horseman of the Apocalypse are there?

If you said four, your wrong there's five....

Yet most every Christian will say four... I mean it's only counting to five!!!!