Are the dead in heaven NOW?

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Grace, you last post #28 has some questions I already answered to...

But you say Paul teaches that he doesn't know if he should stay or be with Christ.
And this you say proves your point.

Well let's see.....

1. When Paul dies, he sleeps.... To Paul it will SEEM as if he died and here's comes Jesus (rapture)
this is what I say!
2. So to Paul to die IS to be with Christ. Also Paul cannot see Jesus if he lives so he has to die in order to see Christ.....

Now if 2 scriptures seem t. Conflict each other, we know this can't be... So how do we fond out what is true.... First we take scripture that IS clear and that which is not should fit right in....


So let's see what Paul really teaches about if the dead are in heaven when they die or.... If we all go together.....

Now I'm gonna say this says we SLEEP and I would like to ask you to take the Same scripture and show me how I have it wrong....

Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?

[grace]

Grace, you last post #28 has some questions I already answered to...

But you say Paul teaches that he doesn't know if he should stay or be with Christ.
And this you say proves your point.

Well let's see.....

1. When Paul dies, he sleeps.... To Paul it will SEEM as if he died and here's comes Jesus (rapture)
this is what I say!
2. So to Paul to die IS to be with Christ. Also Paul cannot see Jesus if he lives so he has to die in order to see Christ.....

Now if 2 scriptures seem t. Conflict each other, we know this can't be... So how do we fond out what is true.... First we take scripture that IS clear and that which is not should fit right in....


So let's see what Paul really teaches about if the dead are in heaven when they die or.... If we all go together.....

Now I'm gonna say this says we SLEEP and I would like to ask you to take the Same scripture and show me how I have it wrong....

Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?

When death is referred to as "sleep" in the Bible, people sometimes assume that death must be a state in which we are completely unaware ("asleep") until we are resurrected. But is "sleep" meant to be taken literally when it refers to death?

Consider that if we say, "Blackbeard's ship was sunk, and now he's sleeping with the fishes," this is simply a figurative way of saying that he's dead. Or if we say, "Johnnie is dead to the world," this is simply a figurative way of saying that he's sleeping soundly. So in modern times we sometimes use the word "sleep" as a figurative reference to death, and we sometimes use the word "dead" as a figurative reference to sleep.

"After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"" (John 11:11-14)
Notice that Jesus told the disciples plainly that Lazarus was dead, because they misunderstood His figurative language when He said that Lazarus was "sleeping." Jesus was using figurative language, not teaching a doctrine of "soul sleep."

[DaveW]

Davew your talking about what the dead know after death
and I'm talking what the bible teaches when it comes to what happens after death.

Two different things

Perhaps.  But your proposition assumes that time as we know it continues for the dead.  Those who say there is a waiting place where the dead are conscious until the resurrection also assume that.

Both periods of waiting are not entirely scriptural.  The conscious crowd have some support in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but as it is a parable meant to illustrate a point, (and that point is NOT how the afterlife works) I take its value as limited.

[fenton]

I can't imagine sleeping for 1,999 years boy that would be rough on my back.   

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Davew your talking about what the dead know after death
and I'm talking what the bible teaches when it comes to what happens after death.

Two different things

Perhaps.  But your proposition assumes that time as we know it continues for the dead.  Those who say there is a waiting place where the dead are conscious until the resurrection also assume that.

Both periods of waiting are not entirely scriptural.  The conscious crowd have some support in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but as it is a parable meant to illustrate a point, (and that point is NOT how the afterlife works) I take its value as limited.

the bible clearly teaches sleep, but let's see about what you say dealing with lazareth....

Paul CLEARLY TEACHES that ALL are to rest until Christ comes!

Paul as GRACE pointed out says:
I don't know if I should stay here (earth) or go to be with Jesus..

Now Paul says that all are to rest till we go to be with Jesus.(rapture)
when Paul dies... To him it will SEEM as if he just dies amd there's Jesus! Same with ALL people believers or not.... For ALL eyes will see Jesus amd the rapture.... But it only seems like Paul dies and goes instantly to the gathering in the clouds.... Pauls unaware of 2012.

Now lazareth dies and rich man both die, both sleep and both awaken one to life and one to shame. But all awake at same time and that's when all eyes see the rapture....

Davew you and they have nothing to make your claim (yours being they had something)

how anyone can get around pauls telling EVERY believer to wait with them till the gathering together, and still you think it's another way!?! 


Traditions of men..... You were shown scripture that supported someones view and this is how you know they might be lying to you.... They never show you the scripture I showed you because it would conflict with their beliefs....

If you teach Christ has come
there's a pre tribulation rapture
once saved always saved
or
the dead are with Christ

I can use the bible and defeat these beliefs! As their all false!

If you can deal with Paul in 2 thess as I said, then you have a problem with your belief...

I use to believe osas and the pre trib rapture until I got tried of everybody saying different things so I found out what it said and not what someone said it said...

I found I had been lied to!  Cause pastors are TAUGHT what the bible says!
That's why were not to be taught by man, only let man show you but you see if what they say is true or not...

Do this test!!!

And see if you think or just listened to what your taught..

You see lightning flash in the sky... You count one two three four and when you get to six, you hear thunder..... How far was the lightning away?

If you say 6 miles you way off as it's less than a mile away!

How many horseman of the Apocalypse are there?

If you said four, your wrong there's five....

Yet most every Christian will say four... I mean it's only counting to five!!!!

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

I can't imagine sleeping for 1,999 years boy that would be rough on my back.   

when Paul died, it's as if Christ came that instant... You sleep and know nothing....
All people sleep and all will awaken at the rapture (rev1:7)
some to life and some to shame (dan 12:2)

those who are unsaved and dead or alive will see the sky roll away and God on his throne and Jesus. (rev 6:14-19?) and say to rocks call on us. This is when the nations or tribes weep because they know they have no chance (dead) and the living are left to face the wrath of rev6:19)

it will be as if god opens a box to look down at us.... You know how it is when you open a Dark box and let in light, anything inside panics and runs..... (like a lizzard or such)

and this is what God means when we will be saved from the hour of temptation that comes upon the world....

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Try this:

PHILIP 1:23 Paul ponders to stay (earth) or depart (die) and be with Christ.
2thess Paul tells all believer to wait till christ comes...

What I say:

Paul tells all believers to wait - when Paul died he sleeps and is unaware of time and it will seem as if he died and there's Christ.

Try this your way:

Paul dies and goes to heaven
Paul tells all believers to wait till christ comes

see how it only works one way....

[grace]

Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?

I think I see the problem here...

You are seeing rest here as death(sleep). In verse 7 it is not talking about death!
He says rest with us...they are still alive!
Do you not understand what rest in Jesus means?

Jesus offered us the chance to enter into this rest. He made it clear that the rest included a spiritual rest, with spritual bread and living water. His burden was easy and yoke light. THis is for the living...not the dead! We can once again dwell in His presence.

He is talking to the living in 2 Thess. 1...
To you who are troubled..is talking to the ones going through a trial here on earth.
rest with us...again they are alive and resting in Jesus! Rest in the fact that Jesus will take vengence on the ones that are against Him and his people!

[DaveW]

KB, I know you are trying to prove your point about soul sleep.  And others try to prove their point of the dead waiting in God's presence until the end.

To me this whole argument makes no difference. Please tell me WHAT difference it makes to me as a believer and how I live my life if when I die I spend 1500 years in God's presence or 1500 years sleeping? does that change anything?

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

DaveW
I proved it.... No one could go against it.

If you don't care then why do you post?  It matters because it the BIBLE teaches the truth of which this is written about by God so He thought it neccessary to put it in the bible...

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

I certainly was trying to prove my point.... I proved God's point.

I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

So tell me DAVEW? Should I of just let a lie be taught?  Some people like to know the truth.

 And let believers believe an untruth?

And ALL scripture is CONNECTED to other verses. So a lie in one verse Infects the outcome of another
verse... So what happens when they DO come to verses that say something different... Find out then or find out now.... If you don't care to find out then why post so much in a waste of time post?

[n2thelight]

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

not sure question but,  your asking do the unsaved dead (rich man) return to Father...

go back to father?

[grace]

I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

I addressed your 2 Thess. post...but you never responded???

[CatHead]

Jesus went down to Hades after He died, and then He took the Paradise compartment of Hades up into Heaven. So Paradise and all of the Old Testament saints are now in Heaven, and Christians go straight to Heaven when we die (rather than going down to Hades first).

I have scriptures for all of this but it will be a long post.

Hi grace...I think this is the scripture you are referring to (Ephesians 4:8-9). 

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

The popular interpretation of this verse is that the 'lower parts of the earth' are referring to Sheol...and the 'old testament saints' were the 'captives' that Christ released and led to heaven...but this interpretation is problematic for many reasons.

The automatic assumption that the 'lower parts of the earth' is referring to Sheol is a mistake because scripture also refers to the 'womb' as the 'lower parts of the earth as seen in Psalms 139:13-15...

Psa 139:13  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

If you look at the context of Ephesians 4 it becomes easy to see if Paul is referring to Sheol or 'the womb' by the phrase 'lower parts of the earth'.  Keeping in mind that this was the method that Christ chose to descend from heaven in the first place...by being born, by decending from heaven into Mary's womb.

In context, Paul, in Ephesians 4:8-9 is giving an analysis of Psalms 68:18 which offers no explanation of why the Christ is 'ascending into heaven'.  In Psalms the verse begins with Christ ascending into heaven...it doesn't say why he's not in heaven to begin with or where he is ascending from...Paul picks up on this and offers a simple reasoning problem to his hearers...If in Psalms 68:18 Messiah is ascending to heaven...he must have first descended from heaven...do you see?  Paul is not saying that Christ descended from the earth into Sheol and then ascended from Sheol into heaven...He is saying that Christ descended from Heaven to Earth (by being born) and then ascended from Earth into heaven...

Some of the problems with your interpretation are as follows....

Christ did not descend into Sheol upon his death...he descended into the abyss [abussos G12] (aka.  the bottomless pit, the deep, the pit, tartarus)  No man has descended into the abyss (except Jonah Jonah 2:3) the 'spirits of the old testament saints' were not in the same place where Christ descended to upon his death....

Romans 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep[abussos G12]? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

David had not ascended to heaven after Christ's ascension.....Peter declared by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:34 that David has not yet ascended into heaven...this scene occurs after Christ's ascension...so if Christ did in fact lead the dead saints directly from Sheol into Heaven, then David wasn't among them...

Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

Christ did not ascend into heaven from Sheol....well, he wasn't in Sheol anyway to begin with as Romans 10:7 proves...but after his resurrection he said he had not ascended yet...

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So if Christ supposedly had the old testament saints in tow as he ascended up from Sheol, then they must have spent time on Earth with Christ for awhile before he ascended.  I understand that some might use the "resurrection" of Matthew 27:53 as 'proof' of this viewpoint...that the saints hung out in their resurrected bodies on earth for awhile and then ascended with Christ...but it does not stand to reason that they would have been visible after their resurrection...but invisible at their ascension, as Christ appeared to ascend alone to the witnesses...and anyway, you can go back to Acts 2:34 and ask yourself why David wasn't among them anyway...

Have a great day,
Cat

[CatHead]

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

not sure question but,  your asking do the unsaved dead (rich man) return to Father...

go back to father?

Hi Knowledge Bomb, n2thelight...using the catchphrase about 'spirit returning to the Father' is not the equivalent of the 'spirit ascending to heaven'....Although God (and Christ in him) is in Heaven as many verses will prove out...God (and Christ in him) also reside in Sheol as Psalms 139:8 proves (hell=Sheol)

Psa_139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The spirit returning to the Father and the soul descending into Sheol are not mutually exclusive things...

Have a great day,
Cat