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Author Topic: Are the dead in heaven NOW?  (Read 8779 times)

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 11:56:15 »
I can't imagine sleeping for 1,999 years boy that would be rough on my back.   ::smile::

when Paul died, it's as if Christ came that instant... You sleep and know nothing....
All people sleep and all will awaken at the rapture (rev1:7)
some to life and some to shame (dan 12:2)

those who are unsaved and dead or alive will see the sky roll away and God on his throne and Jesus. (rev 6:14-19?) and say to rocks call on us. This is when the nations or tribes weep because they know they have no chance (dead) and the living are left to face the wrath of rev6:19)

it will be as if god opens a box to look down at us.... You know how it is when you open a Dark box and let in light, anything inside panics and runs..... (like a lizzard or such)

and this is what God means when we will be saved from the hour of temptation that comes upon the world....

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 11:56:15 »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 12:14:55 »
Try this:

PHILIP 1:23 Paul ponders to stay (earth) or depart (die) and be with Christ.
2thess Paul tells all believer to wait till christ comes...

What I say:

Paul tells all believers to wait - when Paul died he sleeps and is unaware of time and it will seem as if he died and there's Christ.

Try this your way:

Paul dies and goes to heaven
Paul tells all believers to wait till christ comes

see how it only works one way....

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 12:14:55 »

Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 14:41:54 »
Paul tells us:
2 thess

2:1 Paul silvanus and timotheus
2:7 Paul says: to All who are troubled come rest with us (2:1)
until JESUS is revealed from heaven with his mighty angel's (Rev6:14-17)
A. All believers MUST enters Gods rest! (Heb 4:1-11) if you don't then you are in unbelief like the israelites during the exodus (that's why Gentiles were grafted in)

so PAUL tells ALL believers from his time till Christ comes to rest.... Until the gathering together with Christ....

V.10 when Christ shall come and be glorified by his saints (when we rise to meet Christ this is when he is glorified)

2:1 tells about the gathering together with Christ (rapture - one event)
2:2 don't believe the secret rapture
2:3 for that day, what day? The day of our gathering together with Christ (rapture)
Can't happen until the falling away and man of sin sits in temple during tribulation.

GRACE... Paul tells us these things above


1. Paul tells ALL believers to rest until CHRIST COMES (rapture)
    This is one event.
2. Paul is waiting until Christ gathers us together so he ISNT in heaven.
3. If Paul was already in heaven then Why would he tell believers to rest with them until Christ comes?




I think I see the problem here...

You are seeing rest here as death(sleep). In verse 7 it is not talking about death!
He says rest with us...they are still alive!
Do you not understand what rest in Jesus means?

Jesus offered us the chance to enter into this rest. He made it clear that the rest included a spiritual rest, with spritual bread and living water. His burden was easy and yoke light. THis is for the living...not the dead! We can once again dwell in His presence.

He is talking to the living in 2 Thess. 1...
To you who are troubled..is talking to the ones going through a trial here on earth.
rest with us...again they are alive and resting in Jesus! Rest in the fact that Jesus will take vengence on the ones that are against Him and his people!


Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 17:54:02 »
KB, I know you are trying to prove your point about soul sleep.  And others try to prove their point of the dead waiting in God's presence until the end.

To me this whole argument makes no difference. Please tell me WHAT difference it makes to me as a believer and how I live my life if when I die I spend 1500 years in God's presence or 1500 years sleeping? does that change anything?

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 17:54:02 »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #39 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 00:46:52 »
DaveW
I proved it.... No one could go against it.

If you don't care then why do you post?  It matters because it the BIBLE teaches the truth of which this is written about by God so He thought it neccessary to put it in the bible...

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

I certainly was trying to prove my point.... I proved God's point.

I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

So tell me DAVEW? Should I of just let a lie be taught?  Some people like to know the truth.

 And let believers believe an untruth?

And ALL scripture is CONNECTED to other verses. So a lie in one verse Infects the outcome of another
verse... So what happens when they DO come to verses that say something different... Find out then or find out now.... If you don't care to find out then why post so much in a waste of time post?


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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #39 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 00:46:52 »



Offline n2thelight

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #40 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 01:33:18 »
Quote
They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #41 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 15:11:35 »
Quote
They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

not sure question but,  your asking do the unsaved dead (rich man) return to Father...

go back to father?


Offline grace

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #42 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 18:29:13 »
I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

I addressed your 2 Thess. post...but you never responded???

Offline CatHead

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 22:42:03 »
Jesus went down to Hades after He died, and then He took the Paradise compartment of Hades up into Heaven. So Paradise and all of the Old Testament saints are now in Heaven, and Christians go straight to Heaven when we die (rather than going down to Hades first).

I have scriptures for all of this but it will be a long post.
Hi grace...I think this is the scripture you are referring to (Ephesians 4:8-9). 

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


The popular interpretation of this verse is that the 'lower parts of the earth' are referring to Sheol...and the 'old testament saints' were the 'captives' that Christ released and led to heaven...but this interpretation is problematic for many reasons.

The automatic assumption that the 'lower parts of the earth' is referring to Sheol is a mistake because scripture also refers to the 'womb' as the 'lower parts of the earth as seen in Psalms 139:13-15...

Psa 139:13  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.


If you look at the context of Ephesians 4 it becomes easy to see if Paul is referring to Sheol or 'the womb' by the phrase 'lower parts of the earth'.  Keeping in mind that this was the method that Christ chose to descend from heaven in the first place...by being born, by decending from heaven into Mary's womb.

In context, Paul, in Ephesians 4:8-9 is giving an analysis of Psalms 68:18 which offers no explanation of why the Christ is 'ascending into heaven'.  In Psalms the verse begins with Christ ascending into heaven...it doesn't say why he's not in heaven to begin with or where he is ascending from...Paul picks up on this and offers a simple reasoning problem to his hearers...If in Psalms 68:18 Messiah is ascending to heaven...he must have first descended from heaven...do you see?  Paul is not saying that Christ descended from the earth into Sheol and then ascended from Sheol into heaven...He is saying that Christ descended from Heaven to Earth (by being born) and then ascended from Earth into heaven...

Some of the problems with your interpretation are as follows....

Christ did not descend into Sheol upon his death...he descended into the abyss [abussos G12] (aka.  the bottomless pit, the deep, the pit, tartarus)  No man has descended into the abyss (except Jonah Jonah 2:3) the 'spirits of the old testament saints' were not in the same place where Christ descended to upon his death....

Romans 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep[abussos G12]? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

David had not ascended to heaven after Christ's ascension.....Peter declared by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:34 that David has not yet ascended into heaven...this scene occurs after Christ's ascension...so if Christ did in fact lead the dead saints directly from Sheol into Heaven, then David wasn't among them...

Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

Christ did not ascend into heaven from Sheol....well, he wasn't in Sheol anyway to begin with as Romans 10:7 proves...but after his resurrection he said he had not ascended yet...

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


So if Christ supposedly had the old testament saints in tow as he ascended up from Sheol, then they must have spent time on Earth with Christ for awhile before he ascended.  I understand that some might use the "resurrection" of Matthew 27:53 as 'proof' of this viewpoint...that the saints hung out in their resurrected bodies on earth for awhile and then ascended with Christ...but it does not stand to reason that they would have been visible after their resurrection...but invisible at their ascension, as Christ appeared to ascend alone to the witnesses...and anyway, you can go back to Acts 2:34 and ask yourself why David wasn't among them anyway...

Have a great day,
Cat

Offline CatHead

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #44 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 22:53:14 »
Quote
They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

But all do return to the Father at death...............

The parable of the rich man illustrates this clearly

not sure question but,  your asking do the unsaved dead (rich man) return to Father...

go back to father?
Hi Knowledge Bomb, n2thelight...using the catchphrase about 'spirit returning to the Father' is not the equivalent of the 'spirit ascending to heaven'....Although God (and Christ in him) is in Heaven as many verses will prove out...God (and Christ in him) also reside in Sheol as Psalms 139:8 proves (hell=Sheol)

Psa_139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The spirit returning to the Father and the soul descending into Sheol are not mutually exclusive things...

Have a great day,
Cat

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #45 on: Sun Feb 26, 2012 - 23:06:56 »
Paradise isn't heaven exactly, and it isn't necessarily part of hades either.  It is most literally a reference to the garden of Eden.

The Jews generally thought that Eden had been taken up from earth into the heavens around the time of this writing.  The same thought can be seen in Revelation, and in Enoch.

Jarrod

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Feb 27, 2012 - 15:46:47 »
I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

I addressed your 2 Thess. post...but you never responded???


Did not see it and almost missed this....

I'm not using rest as Sleep, I included Heb 4:1-11 that shows REST is BELIEVING (Faith) in God.(Christ)
The Israelites in the exodus because of unbelief didn't enter Gods REST... and is why He wondered them for forty yrs till they died off (those out of Egypt). This is Why the Gentiles were Grafted into the vine.


This is what it say:s (2thess).

1.Paul tells all to rest - this MEANS ALL BELIEVERS! he is talking to.....
2. He then tells ALL BELIEVERS to WAIT with THEM
3. Until Christ is revealed from heaven (the rapture)
4. Paul is talking that this gathering together will be after two things.
5. The falling away and abomanation that makes desolate.
6. This is midtrib... 7 yr agreement broke - armies surround Jerusalem - AofD


So Paul is telling all believers to wait with Paul and everyother believer until Christ comes from heaven on the clouds and this happens after mid trib....

So then Christ is Glorified (v10) in front of all the angels demons and All the eyes ever lived on earth) when ALL those saints sleeping and alive gathering together to been seen by everything and this is Christ Glory to be in front of all As both Being the son of God he said he was and those who believed in that day (through today!) what was said by Paul then.
 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 13:35:16 »
DaveW
I proved it.... No one could go against it.

If you don't care then why do you post?  It matters because it the BIBLE teaches the truth of which this is written about by God so He thought it neccessary to put it in the bible...

They stated you go to heaven when you die and I as a Christian havethe duty to set things straight...

I certainly was trying to prove my point.... I proved God's point.

I saw no one could go against my Phillipians/2thess post...

So tell me DAVEW? Should I of just let a lie be taught?  Some people like to know the truth.

 And let believers believe an untruth?

And ALL scripture is CONNECTED to other verses. So a lie in one verse Infects the outcome of another
verse... So what happens when they DO come to verses that say something different... Find out then or find out now.... If you don't care to find out then why post so much in a waste of time post?
No you did NOT prove your point (although you think you did). The other side did not prove their point either. The only thing you both proved is that you base your arguement on the point that the dead experience time the same as we do. I have shown that is an unsubstantiated assumption.

And I jump in because this point CANNOT be proved one way or the other and I want it left that way. To say it has to be one or the other unavoidably strays into extra biblical conjecture.  And NO DOCTRINE should be based on that.

Why should I allow you OR the others believe something extrabiblical and take it as gospel truth?
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 13:47:11 by DaveW »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 16:13:19 »
I'm not using rest as Sleep, I included Heb 4:1-11 that shows REST is BELIEVING (Faith) in God.(Christ)
The Israelites in the exodus because of unbelief didn't enter Gods REST... and is why He wondered them for forty yrs till they died off (those out of Egypt). This is Why the Gentiles were Grafted into the vine.


This is what it say:s (2thess).

1.Paul tells all to rest - this MEANS ALL BELIEVERS! he is talking to.....
2. He then tells ALL BELIEVERS to WAIT with THEM
3. Until Christ is revealed from heaven (the rapture)
4. Paul is talking that this gathering together will be after two things.
5. The falling away and abomanation that makes desolate.
6. This is midtrib... 7 yr agreement broke - armies surround Jerusalem - AofD


So Paul is telling all believers to wait with Paul and everyother believer until Christ comes from heaven on the clouds and this happens after mid trib....

So then Christ is Glorified (v10) in front of all the angels demons and All the eyes ever lived on earth) when ALL those saints sleeping and alive gathering together to been seen by everything and this is Christ Glory to be in front of all As both Being the son of God he said he was and those who believed in that day (through today!) what was said by Paul then.



So davew.... Show me from these scripture where I'm wrong...  You give option but take these and show me what Paul is saying? Where I have it wrong?

Lehigh

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 18:20:56 »
 
      Daniel 12:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 But as for you, go your way to the [a]end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the
age.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 21:26:55 »
 
     Daniel 12:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 But as for you, go your way to the [a]end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the
age.
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 21:55:37 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #51 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 22:52:08 »
 
      Daniel 12:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 But as for you, go your way to the [a]end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the
age.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #52 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 23:41:58 »
Quote
The END that God is talking about is the END when Daniel will get His LOT (reward)
this IS the rapture... This LOT means:stones or pebbles (used like dice) used for that purpose.
And is about our reward or portion...

Christ brings our reward with him (eternal life) Rev 22:12. When he comes on the clouds (rapture)


Christ only returns once more,this is our gathering that Paul refers too

2 Thessalonians 2:1 
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

At this present time,Daniel is with the Father in heaven,he along with the other's who have died before the 7th trump,comes with Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:14 
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died) in Jesus will God bring with him.

He can't bring them unless they are already with Him....

We who are alive at the sounding of the 7th trump,will be changed to what those who have died are,and we shall meet up with them.....

It's so simple...........

daq

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #53 on: Tue Feb 28, 2012 - 23:43:22 »
"Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?"

YHWH is not the 'Elohiym of the dead but of the living. Have you not read or heard what was said to Moses at the burning bush? That YHWH is the 'Elohiym of Abraham, and the 'Elohiym of Isaac, and the 'Elohiym of Jacob? There are no dead in heaven.

 
      Daniel 12:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 But as for you, go your way to the [a]end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the
age.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #54 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 04:50:30 »
This is what it say:s (2thess).

1.Paul tells all to rest - this MEANS ALL BELIEVERS! he is talking to.....
2. He then tells ALL BELIEVERS to WAIT with THEM
3. Until Christ is revealed from heaven (the rapture)
4. Paul is talking that this gathering together will be after two things.
5. The falling away and abomanation that makes desolate.
6. This is midtrib... 7 yr agreement broke - armies surround Jerusalem - AofD


So davew.... Show me from these scripture where I'm wrong...  You give option but take these and show me what Paul is saying? Where I have it wrong?
Well, aside from point number 6, which goes in another thread here in the end time forum, what is wrong is you are not understanding Paul is writing from the human perception of passing of time.  You have NOT shown that the dead experience it [time] the same way, if at all. If they don, then resting or sleeping or being conscious in God's presence does not apply.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #55 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 07:47:59 »
DAQ Said:

 There are no dead in heaven.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

win one for the gipper.... How's that WITNESS program working for ya?

You simply don't make enough sense to bother with ALL you always have wrong...

You would take to much time.....

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #56 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 08:05:00 »
Davew - SO... I GUESS that's a NO!!! You can't take the scripture on

That's all I asked... You talk and talk and can't seem to seperate yourself from THE WAY YOU WANT it to Stay which is the TRADITIONS of Men.... You can't get through your head that the bible is clear about what happens and your stuck on what the DEAD KNOW and this has NOTHING to do with what they know... But where their at..... If you can't answer it that's fine but talking in circles saying nothing over and again....  Becomes nothing more than a waste of time.

When the living die, their no longer living so they are somewhere else...no matter what they know or how time works anywhere, their not living.... 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #57 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 08:57:14 »
Davew, what's wrong with me, you say! Then you proceed to say I don't understand pauls writing to the living.....


Either that or he's writing to who else?  The dead?  You make no sense daveW

if you make no sense on this level, you certainly won't make it on a more complex one.
Unless your willing to prove what I say Paul teaches in 2thess that says the dead wait till the gathering with Christ then I really can't waste time going around about...


The whole point of this post you have dragged into something else....

1. They said the dead are in heaven at THIS MOMEMT feb 29th 2012.
2. Since they aren't LIVING (on earth) they HAVE to be somewhere else....
3. Paul says ALL believers WAIT for Christ...

Then you come along with: what the dead know or what time the dead know or are in or not.

And that simply isn't what was being proven per what they were claiming...

BUT still Paul says the all believers that Paul ever wrote to or ever entered Gods rest are to wait with PAUL till Christ comes... This proves they:

All wait with Paul (rapture hasn't happened yet)
all dead who wait sleep till Christ comes... With Paul.
All dead sleep and KNOW NOTHING!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #58 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 09:14:16 »
Davew break this verse down for US....

2thess 1:7

1.AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED - Does this mean everyone ?
2.REST - what's this mean?
3.WITH US - is this Paul timotheus and silvanus?
4.WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED - how is He revealed (from heaven)
5.FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS - is this the rapture (gathering together)?

About 20 words should tell us everything
1. Either it's everyone or it's not
2. Either it's taking a nap or death or what?
3. Either it is Paul or it's not
4. Do you know
5. It's either rapture or 2nd coming or something else

keep it simple....

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #59 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 14:46:27 »
Quote
The END that God is talking about is the END when Daniel will get His LOT (reward)
this IS the rapture... This LOT means:stones or pebbles (used like dice) used for that purpose.
And is about our reward or portion...

Christ brings our reward with him (eternal life) Rev 22:12. When he comes on the clouds (rapture)


Christ only returns once more,this is our gathering that Paul refers too

2 Thessalonians 2:1  
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

At this present time,Daniel is with the Father in heaven,he along with the other's who have died before the 7th trump,comes with Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:14  
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died) in Jesus will God bring with him.

He can't bring them unless they are already with Him....

We who are alive at the sounding of the 7th trump,will be changed to what those who have died are,and we shall meet up with them.....

It's so simple...........


1.So your saying the rapture (gathering) is the only time Christ is coming (once more)
2. What happened to Him and his saints coming to have war with the devil and his armies to set up his 1000 yr reign?

I CANT solve  1thess 4:14 and what's said here TILL we resolve what 2thess says as it is dependant upon clearing up what PAUL teaches in 2thess 1:7...... So you answer this and I will show you were your wrong on the 4:14 verse.
If you won't then it proves you can't cause it will prove all sleep....

This is to see if Paul teaches all believers including Paul are to sleep till Christ comes.

AND to YOU who are TROUBLED - is this all believers?
REST - what's this mean?
With US - who's us?
When (until) the lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from Heaven - is this the rapture?
With His mighty angels

So simple as you said... So teach us so we can see what Paul teaches here?

Lehigh

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #60 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 17:03:10 »
Davew break this verse down for US....

2thess 1:7

1.AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED - Does this mean everyone ?
2.REST - what's this mean?
3.WITH US - is this Paul timotheus and silvanus?
4.WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED - how is He revealed (from heaven)
5.FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS - is this the rapture (gathering together)?

About 20 words should tell us everything
1. Either it's everyone or it's not
2. Either it's taking a nap or death or what?
3. Either it is Paul or it's not
4. Do you know
5. It's either rapture or 2nd coming or something else

keep it simple....
Jews were troubling the church. God would cause tribulation to them because they troubled the church. The synagogue of Satan, the harlot was going to be judged, (AD70) 
Rest with us, Paul means the first century believers who entered into God's rest. There are 2 kinds of God's rest. One is alive and remain rest in Christ, another is God's rest after death- 1) "come to Me all who are heavy ladened and I will give you rest...Mt.11:28. "we who have believed have entered that rest." Heb.4:3.  2) Blessed are dead who die in the Lord from now on, yes they rest from their labors and their works follow them. Rev.14:13.


thethinker

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #61 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 17:09:47 »
Davew break this verse down for US....

2thess 1:7

1.AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED - Does this mean everyone ?
2.REST - what's this mean?
3.WITH US - is this Paul timotheus and silvanus?
4.WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED - how is He revealed (from heaven)
5.FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS - is this the rapture (gathering together)?

About 20 words should tell us everything
1. Either it's everyone or it's not
2. Either it's taking a nap or death or what?
3. Either it is Paul or it's not
4. Do you know
5. It's either rapture or 2nd coming or something else

keep it simple....
Jews were troubling the church. God would cause tribulation to them because they troubled the church. The synagogue of Satan, the harlot was going to be judged, (AD70) 
Rest with us, Paul means the first century believers who entered into God's rest. There are 2 kinds of God's rest. One is alive and remain rest in Christ, another is God's rest after death- 1) "come to Me all who are heavy ladened and I will give you rest...Mt.11:28. "we who have believed have entered that rest." Heb.4:3.  2) Blessed are dead who die in the Lord from now on, yes they rest from their labors and their works follow them. Rev.14:13.



Manna Bro!

thinker

Lehigh

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #62 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 17:30:48 »
 
      Daniel 12:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 But as for you, go your way to the [a]end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the
age.

Lehigh

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #63 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 17:39:13 »
Davew break this verse down for US....

2thess 1:7

1.AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED - Does this mean everyone ?
2.REST - what's this mean?
3.WITH US - is this Paul timotheus and silvanus?
4.WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED - how is He revealed (from heaven)
5.FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS - is this the rapture (gathering together)?

About 20 words should tell us everything
1. Either it's everyone or it's not
2. Either it's taking a nap or death or what?
3. Either it is Paul or it's not
4. Do you know
5. It's either rapture or 2nd coming or something else

keep it simple....
Jews were troubling the church. God would cause tribulation to them because they troubled the church. The synagogue of Satan, the harlot was going to be judged, (AD70) 
Rest with us, Paul means the first century believers who entered into God's rest. There are 2 kinds of God's rest. One is alive and remain rest in Christ, another is God's rest after death- 1) "come to Me all who are heavy ladened and I will give you rest...Mt.11:28. "we who have believed have entered that rest." Heb.4:3.  2) Blessed are dead who die in the Lord from now on, yes they rest from their labors and their works follow them. Rev.14:13.



Manna Bro!

thinker
::thankyouthankyou:: lol

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #64 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 18:23:45 »
At this present time,Daniel is with the Father in heaven,he along with the other's who have died before the 7th trump,comes with Christ.....


Daniel 12:1 when talking about Those found in the book of life being delivered out of the tribulation (alive)
12:2 And many that SLEEP in the DUST of the earth (dead belivers) SHALL AWAKE
SOME to life Some to shame
12.3 tells us at this time those that were (are) wise will shine (forever because they just got their uncoruptable bodies in verse 12:2


This is what Paul teaches to wait till THIS Gathering in Dan.

So to say Daniel is with God, not only do you have Nothing to back your claim But, Daniel teaches the DEAD SLEEP...... 

So to address 1thess 4:14 says: the Lord shall descend from heaven (2thess 1:7) and the DEAD....  DEAD....... in Christ shall RISE First! Then those alive (Dan 12:1) will be Delivered

the Dead and living are DELIVERED at THIS (rapture) Time.


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #65 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 19:24:15 »
LEHIGH said:
Jews were troubling the church. God would cause tribulation to them because they troubled the church. The synagogue of Satan, the harlot was going to be judged, (AD70)  

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


So since you all believe Christ has came answer this. If you can.

1. So Daniel chapter 12 is in the Past?
2. The Antichrist has already come? mark of beast - past or future?
3. Has 1000 yr reign happened?
4. 2nd coming is future event?

 



So you believe were in between the rapture and the 2nd coming?
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 19:35:50 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #66 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 19:47:36 »


Briefly you believe what?

So LEHIGH BELIEVES what?
So NTOTHELIGHT BELIEVES what?
So DAVEW BELIEVES what?
So GRACE BELIEVES what?

When it comes to rapture - 2nd coming  and tribulation...


So your waiting to die and be in heaven? Does the world ever end?
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 20:07:01 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #67 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 22:50:02 »
At this present time,Daniel is with the Father in heaven,he along with the other's who have died before the 7th trump,comes with Christ.....


Daniel 12:1 when talking about Those found in the book of life being delivered out of the tribulation (alive)
12:2 And many that SLEEP in the DUST of the earth (dead belivers) SHALL AWAKE
SOME to life Some to shame
12.3 tells us at this time those that were (are) wise will shine (forever because they just got their uncoruptable bodies in verse 12:2


This is what Paul teaches to wait till THIS Gathering in Dan.

So to say Daniel is with God, not only do you have Nothing to back your claim But, Daniel teaches the DEAD SLEEP...... 

So to address 1thess 4:14 says: the Lord shall descend from heaven (2thess 1:7) and the DEAD....  DEAD....... in Christ shall RISE First! Then those alive (Dan 12:1) will be Delivered

the Dead and living are DELIVERED at THIS (rapture) Time.



God is a God of the living,not the dead.........

You also failed to answer the question,if those who have died are in the ground waiting on Christ to return,how can they return with Him?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

He can't bring them unless they are with Him..........

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Who are the above,don't look like they are in a hole in the ground to me....

There is no rapture,we gather to Christ at the 7th trump,the scriptures do not teach soul sleep,as Ive shone from scripture......

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #68 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 08:22:58 »
I can't debate someone like NTOTHELIGHT and I won't, when asked what people believe you answered the following:

   
Re: What do you believe?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 06:59:57 PM »    
I believe there could be a pre tribulation rapture:

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And also a pre wrath rapture:

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And the resurrection after the tribulation - wrath:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And the second resurrection after the millinium:

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I voted:
Pre / Mid-Trib Rapture         
Post-Trib / Pre-Millenial Return of Christ





And this is why also I won't bother with DAQ either... Mind you it was a simple check the box that fits you and all said a paragraph's worth to define their point but not DAQ

Re: What do you believe?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 03:03:41 PM »    
Perhaps a little bit of each but not an exact fit to any of the categories. It is not so much any more that I believe but rather now that I know. Day One beside the Master may as well be as a thousand years because to walk in Christ Yeshua with the Father is to have passed from death into life.

2 Peter 2:5 literally states that Noah was "the eighth Herald of Righteousness" and this is in accordance with Genesis 4:26 which states concerning the days of Enos: "Then men began to herald, (call out) in the name of YHWH." And from Enos to Noah are eight preachers or "Heralds of Righteousness" which includes Enoch who walked with 'Elohiym. And Enoch was not, for 'Elohiym took him: just as 'Elohiym took Paul, (to the Third Heaven and Paradise) and both were sent back as heralds of the Message of the Name.

2 Peter 3:8 employs "PARA" which is translated as "WITH" in most translations and this is generally assumed to mean "ACCORDING TO" as if the Scripture states that one day is "according to" the Lord as a thousand years. However, if that were the implied meaning and intent then the proper Greek word should have been "KATA" ("down"-"accordingly") and yet "PARA" is the same word used of Christ the Word in John 1:1 and "PARA" truly implies "BESIDE" or "IN THE SIDE OF" rather than "according to" as is evidenced in the case of John 1:1.

"In the Beginning was the Word" ...
"And the Word was IN THE SIDE of YHWH" ...
"And the Word was, (and is) Deity" ...

John 1:1 KJV
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (GSN#3844 para) God, and the Word was God.

Original Strong's Ref. #3844
Romanized  para
Pronounced par-ah'
a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local [especially beyond or opposed to] or causal [on account of]:
KJV--above, against, among, at, before, by, contrary to, X friend, from, + give [such things as they], + that [she] had, X his, in, more than, nigh unto, (out) of, past, save, side...by, in the sight of, than, [there-]fore, with. In compounds it retains the same variety of application.

2 Peter 3:8 KJV
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with (GSN#3844 para) the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:8 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
8. Hen de touto me lanthaneto humas, agapetoi, hoti mia hemera para Kurio hos chilia ete kai chiliaete hos hemera mia.



Hebrews 11:13 KJV
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:13 LIT (Literal Bible w/vertical Strong's Ref. #'s)
13.
   |2596| By way ["according to"]
   |4102| of faith
   |0599| died
   |3778| these
   |3956| all,
   |3361| not
   |2983| having received
   |3588| the
   |1860| promises,
   |0235| but
   |4207| from a distance
   |0846| them
   |1492| seeing,
   |2532| and
   |0782| having embraced,
   |2532| and
   |3670| having confessed
   |3754| that
   |3581| aliens
   |2532| and
   |3927| temporary residents
   |1526| they
   |1909| are on
   |3588| the
   |1093| earth.

Original Strong's Ref. #2596
Romanized  kata
Pronounced kat-ah'
a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined):
KJV--about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-]bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-]ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from...to, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ...by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

Hebrews 11:13 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
13. Kata pistin apethanon houtoi pantes, me labontestas epangelias alla porrothen autas idontes {*} kai aspasamenoi kai homologesantes hoti xenoi kai parepidemoi eisin epi tes ges.

Hebrews 11:13
13. ACCORDING to [the] faith died all of these, not having received the promises: contrariwise, at a distance, they perceived and did embrace them; and confessed that strangers and temporary residents they were upon the earth.

1) Enoch died according to the Faith, (which is dying to self).
2) Enoch perceived and did embrace the promises of 'Elohiym.
3) Enoch testified, then gave his confession of faith, and then prophesied.
4) Enoch prophesied after he was taken, ("hidden") and then was sent back.
5) Saul of Tarsus underwent the same Baptism in the cloud and became Paul.

2 Corinthians 12:1-3 RSV
1. I MUST boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and apocalypses-revelations of the Lord. 
2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 
3. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--

Hebrews 10:30-31 KJV
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Corinthians 5:11 YGB
11. having known, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, and to God we are manifested, and I hope also in your consciences to have been manifested;

2 Corinthians 5:8-11 KJV
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good (a white stone) or bad (a black stone).
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in BLAU BLAU BLAU


See my point... Can't and won't

I do want to debate one on one anywhen who teaches christ has came as per: 2 thess and Revelations which means you teach the tribulation of rev has already been....

Ntothelight, your beliefs leave you as a empty boat tossed about by the waves and wind....
Daq does anyone really read through or BY what you write...

No thanks

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Are the dead in heaven NOW?
« Reply #69 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 08:55:46 »
Ntothenight said: one for the road I say

he said this:
There is no rapture,we gather to Christ at the 7th trump,the scriptures do not teach soul sleep,as Ive shone from scripture......


DUDE THE GATHERING TOGETHER IS THE RAPTURE

You also are foolish with the following belief:

the holy spirit is the word

so since the word is Jesus this would mean IN YOUR THINKING, Jesus is really the holy spirit.

Then the holy spirit who's the word who's Jesus had the holy spirit come down like a dove to indwell Jesus who is the word which is the holy spirit....  God has more than one spirit...


Here's 1thes4
   The idea that souls of righteous people leave the body and go to heaven at death doesn't seem to fit with the clear description of the resurrection at the return of Christ (or with Jesus' promise quoted later).
   "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess. 1:16, 17).
   Those who are dead come up from the grave where they have been waiting for Christ to raise them to life. The only way to harmonize the verses we just read with the popular theory is to suppose that the souls come down with Christ and connect with their bodies, then return again to heaven. Nowhere does the Bible speak of a soul living apart from its body. It is only inferred from a special reading of passages such as we have examined. One verse which might seem to say that the souls come down is just before the verses just quoted.
   "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede]  them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. . . ." (1 Thess. 4:13-16).
   Did you notice the statement, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"? Does this show that the sleeping ones are in heaven and will come down with Christ? We first wonder why God in heaven would "bring" the sleeping ones instead of sending them. Christ is the one described as coming down. Even if the Father comes, too, others would be said to be coming with Christ rather than the Father because of the prominence of Christ in the description.
   Perhaps more significant is the question, Are the sleeping ones brought down to earth or up to heaven? Paul was making a comparison with Jesus own resurrection. Because Jesus arose and ascended to heaven so God will take the risen ones to heaven with Him. Paul recognizes that the Father didn't bring resurrected ones (aside from a special case) at the time of Christ's resurrection. He uses the future tense: "them also which sleep . . . will God bring." He can be said to bring them with Christ at a later time.
   Jesus was the first of the harvest. Because of Him the rest would follow. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. . . .  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [not individually as they die]." (1 Cor. 15:20-23).