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Offline LaSpino3

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Being Consistent
« on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:08:42 »
Being Consistent:

2 Pet.2:7-8, “Be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Ver.10, “But the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief (robber to unbelievers) in the night.”

There should be no question concerning the word “thousand” in this verse. There are (9) Greek words for the English “thousand.” The Greek Peter uses is chilioi. It refers to a specific number, an adjective, and means one (1) thousand. If Peter had meant 2 thousand he would have used the Greek dischilioi, or if he meant 5 thousand he would have used the Greek pentakischiloi etc. 

Also, there are 21 Greek words for the English word “one.” Peter uses the Greek “heis”, which is the first cardinal number (1). Now, there should be no question as to what specific number Peter was speaking to, it’s “one thousand.”

I believe in consistency when examining all scripture.  In Hosea 6:2, he writes, “After two days will he revive us; in the third day he will raise us up, and we (the Jews) shall live in his (God’s) sight.”

Now here is where problems arise. If we claim that 2 days means two 24 Hour literal days, the verse makes no sense. But if we apply Peter’s formula, it would mean 2000 Years, and the third day would point to another 1000 years, 3000 Total. If this is correct, all we need to find is a start point, then go forward 2 thousand Years then another 1000 years.
Now let’s apply the same idea to the following.
 
In Daniel we have a similar dilemma. Dan.8:14, “He said (an angel) unto me (Daniel), Unto two thousand and three hundred (2300) days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Dan.12:11, “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290).”

Dan.12:12, “Blessed is he that waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).”

In verses like these many veer off course because of inconsistency. I cannot find any specific major events that would fulfill all three periods of 2300, 1290, and 1335 if we use days to mean 24 hours, none. Many attempts are made to stretch or shrink these days in order to fit events like the destruction of the Temple, or squeeze 1290 into 1260 or 3 ½ Years. Nope, it doesn’t work!

I don’t believe the Lord is attempting to confuse us, therefore, there has to be a correct answer to the problem of “what does the word “days” mean in these three verses?
First let’s consider the time of these prophesy. Sometime late in Daniel’s captivity, let’s say between 540 and 535 B.C. Jerusalem lay in ruins, the Temple had been destroyed some 65 or 70 years before. There were no animal sacrifices going on for the Jews; the Ark of the covenant went missing, the mercy seat, the eternal flame was gone etc. Also, the Levitical priesthood no longer existed.

The Pharisees and Sadducees where not sanctioned by God, therefore, whatever ceremonies they had conducted in Herod’s Temple during their existence had absolutely no merit whatsoever, I don’t care how much they prayed, sang, tithed etc. These so-called Priests were appointed by the Romans and by Herod, not God. The Temple itself had no relevance, it had not been cleansed as ordered by God. It was God who threw the Jews out for their many sins.

Jesus had pronounced all the buildings that stood on Mt. Moriah and Jerusalem as desolate (abandoned) 40 years before the Temple and city were destroyed. Why did the Lord sent the Roman’s led by Titus in to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple? It was to prevent converted Christian Jews from going back under the yoke and bondage of the law. Slowly they were beginning to weaken from the pressure of the unholy priests; Paul’s writes about it.

All three dates speak of the future. The word “daily” used by Daniel means, “perpetual, endless;” I can only think of one sacrifice that fits that bill, It’s the one Jesus made. Sacrifice speaks of a “blood offering” only. Transgression speaks of the Jews transgression against God. Desolation (speaks of the sin of the desolator, the Jews) and abomination (sins of) the desolators (the Jews).

Daniel speaks of the future, not the past. If I am correct, there should be three major events that have occurred in history; all touchstones to Nebuchadnezzar’s image of a man, each linked, one to another, concerning the three dates mentioned above. All 3 should touch on the enemies of the Jews, the Jews themselves, and Israel itself. Think! Open up your heart to the Holy Spirit.

I’ll give you two clues that may help, Ezekiel stick that was broken into two pieces, and the Dome of the Rock the abomination that makes desolate. I’ll give you my reasons and conclusions in other posts. Oh, by the way, I will show how 6000, 2300, 1290, 1335 days, and Hosea's 2 days all end at the same time, and it's much closer than you may think!
 
Phil LaSpino

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Being Consistent
« on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 09:08:42 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 10:14:48 »
That is not a formula for man's time in terms of God's time or God's time in terms of man's time.  Rather it is a declaration that with God there is no time.  God stands outside of time.  Time is a created entity just as space is created, just as energy is created, etc. etc.  Time is not constrained by time.

And you are correct; there should be no question concerning the word "thousand".  But you missed it anyway.

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 10:14:48 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #2 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 11:03:53 »
4WD
Not talking about time for God, talking about time made for man by God. Explain to me, why all the genealogies put in the Bible for our learning? Why all the dates and years?
The following came from my dictionary, it has taken me 15 years to complete. It's a translation of the whole of the N.T. the King James from Greek in English. Hmmmm, just thought of something, doing all the work of this dictionary hasn't improve my vocabulary, Oh well!

Anyway here my evidence that 1 thousand means what I said it means. The numbers you see after the word thousand, are Strong's numbering system, this was to make it easy for other's to compare my work with other Greek to English dictionaries. Also look up the word time in your concordance, set time, "every man in his own order (or time) ---------------------------------

You can look up the 1st four yourself:
Thousand: 1367.
Thousand: 2035. 
Thousand: Thousands: 3461.   
Thousand: 3463. 

Thousand: 4000. Greek is, pentakischiloi. Five thousand, Used as a past particle. Five times one thousand, Matt.14:21, 16:9. Mark 6:44, 8:19. Luke 9:14. John 6:10. Septuagint:
Ezra 2:69, "Five thousand pound of silver." 2 Chro.35:9.

Thousand: 5070. Greek is, tetrakischilios. Adverb; pp. Four times one thousand, as four thousand, Matt.15:38, 16:10. Mark 8:9-20. Acts 21:38. Sept. 1 Chro.12:26.

Thousand: 5153. Greek is, trischilioi. Three thousand, Acts 2:41, "Three thousand souls." Septuagint for Hebrew Ex.32:28.

Thousand: Thousands: 5505. Greek is, chilias. A chilias, a thousand in number, Luke 14:31. Acts 4:4. 1 Cor.10:8. Rev.5:11, 7:4-5-6-7-8, 11:13, 14:1-3, 21:16. Sept. for Heb. Gen. 24:60, "Mother of thousands of millions." Ex.12:37.

Thousand: 5507. Greek is, chilioi. Number; Adj. A thousand, 2 Pet.3:8, "A thousand years." Rev.11:3, 12:6, 14:20, 20:2-3-4-5-6-7. Sept. for Heb. Gen.20:16. Ex.38:25.

Phil

Offline 4WD

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #3 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 12:25:19 »
I repeat,  2 Peter 3:7-8 is not a formula for man's time in terms of God's time or God's time in terms of man's time.  Rather it is a declaration that with God there is no time.  God stands outside of time.  Time is a created entity just as space is created, just as energy is created, etc. etc.  It is similar to the OT passage in Psalms 90:

Psa 90:1  A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2  Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Psa 90:3  You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 90:4  For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
Psa 90:5  You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.


For God, there is no long time, there is no short time.  Time to God is meaningless.  2 Peter IS NOT and equation.

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #3 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 12:25:19 »
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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #4 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 14:13:47 »
LaSpino3  -  I would agree with you that 2 Peter 3:8 is indeed speaking of a literal thousand, simply by the context wrapped around it.  Peter wanted to make clear to his readers one very important point.  If they missed everything else he was speaking about, he at least wanted them to be certain of this one detail: God was equating one day with a literal thousand years.  It is similar to the day / year principle that we find elsewhere in scripture, except in this case, Peter is equating a day with a literal thousand years. 

This is why I believe there are solid grounds to say that the literal 7 days (of 24 hours each) during creation week is meant to be a picture type of the literal 7,000 years of human history, based on Peter's very point here in 2 Peter 3:8.  I am certainly not the inventor of this idea.  Some on this site have posed this view before, as well as various preachers I have heard.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, I believe it is also part of traditional Jewish teaching as well.  Perhaps this can be confirmed or denied by our in-house experts on Judaism here on site.

To give a bit of a nod to 4WD's position, the word for thousand is not ALWAYS indicative of a literal period of a thousand; sometimes it CAN be symbolic, such as "the cattle on a thousand hills", "one day in thy courts is better than a thousand", etc.  It truly does depend on the context to determine which way we are to understand it.

LaSpino3, you claim that you "cannot find any specific major events that would fulfill all three periods of 2,300, 1,290, and 1,335 if we use days to mean 24 hours".  Well, I have found and confirmed for my own satisfaction these periods of 24-hour days fulfilled in history.  Exactly, with no stretching or shrinking, and in the proper contexts.   You will probably not agree, but I will offer this just the same.

#1)  The 2,300 days span of time occurred during Maccabean times.  If you check the text of Daniel 8:13-14 in the LXX, it specifically says that this 2,300 days is "EVENING AND MORNING there shall be two thousand and three hundred days, and then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."  This is speaking of 24-hour days, with an evening and morning for each day, just as is described for the days of the creation week.  2,300 YEARS is NOT intended.  This temple cleansing took place under Judas Maccabeus in 165 BC, after the “host” of Israel and its sanctuary were “trodden under foot” for that period of time by Antiochus Epiphanes’ forces.  This period took place when the Greek empire under the Ptolemies and the Seleucids was in the “latter time of their kingdom” (Dan. 8:23), and was fulfilled before the 4th kingdom had arisen to full power.

#2)  The 1,290 days occurs later down the road, in AD 66.  Remember from my comment to your "No Man Knows" post, when I said that Ussher had correctly identified October 4th of AD 66 as the day the ARMIES of Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem?  The ARMIES SURROUNDING JERUSALEM were the equivalent term Christ gave in Luke 21:20 that compared with the "abomination of desolation" term in the parallel passages in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14.  Jesus does our homework for us by defining His own terms when we compare these duplicate accounts with each other. 

From the day of October 4th in AD 66 when the armies of Rome first showed up at Jerusalem until the time when Titus showed up with HIS armies at the gates of Jerusalem was exactly 1,290 days.  It was the week of Passover in AD 70, when the maximum number of Jewish people had arrived for the feast and were consequently trapped inside for the siege.  Titus' military strategy took this Passover festival into account so that he could maximize the number of people that he could trap within the city at one time.  Fortunately for Christians who had heeded Jesus' warning to flee for their lives when they first saw Cestius Gallus coming to the city back in AD 66, they escaped this AD 70 entrapment by obeying Jesus' warning to leave Jerusalem and Judea earlier.

#3)  Forty-five days later after that 1,290 days, (as Daniel stipulates in Daniel 12:12), the day of Pentecost arrived: the 1,335th day.  This is the day that Christ returned on the Mount of Olives with his holy ones for His second coming and the resurrection of all those who had lived in Old Covenant days.  It was the day that Zechariah 14:7 says was "known to the Lord" when he would arrive at evening time, just in between day and night.  (Remember, I have said before that we are now awaiting the 3rd resurrection of the New Covenant Age, which will occur at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles used to be celebrated.  But that is at the end of the 7,000 year of human history: a long way for us to go yet.)

I also have an interpretation for your text in Hosea 6:1-2, which you probably will also not agree with.  "Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for He hath torn, and He will heal us;" (as God had just told Hosea in chapter 5:14 that He would tear Ephraim as a lion would do, and Judah also, which He would "tear and go away", leaving none to rescue him from being destroyed by the Babylonians) "He hath smitten, and he will bind us up."  (As God would bind up the nation of Israel in a REVIVING during the post-exilic return - Ezra 9:9.)  "After two days will he revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight." 

As Ezekiel 37 said, God would raise the dry bones of the whole house of Israel in the Valley  - the Valley of Jezreel  - where Hosea 1:5 said that God had "broken the bow of Israel".  He would then raise them from that same Valley of Jezreel in the GREAT DAY OF JEZREEL in Hosea 1:11, when "the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves one head..." (one high priest, Joshua the son of Josedech).  It is at that time that they would "come up out of the land" (the dry bones of Ezekiel 37 would arise out of the land in the Valley of Jezreel). 

But how do we interpret the meaning behind the "TWO DAYS" and "IN THE THIRD DAY" part of the prophecy?  I'm afraid this has nothing to do with a future fulfillment for us, but was fulfilled in the post-exilic return back under Ezra and Nehemiah's time.  The way Hosea phrased his prophecy was meant to be a reflection of the Mosaic law of the Peace offering back in Leviticus 19:5-8.  Bear with me for a minute and I will show the connection to the Hosea 6:1-2 prophecy. 

You may already be familiar with this material, LaSpino3, but I'll go into a bit of detail for the other readers who may not be.  The Peace Offering was unique among all the offerings given by those in Israel.  The types of Peace Offerings were the only offerings of an animal in which the one offering was able to get back the flesh of the beast and eat most of it himself for dinner.  If an Israelite wished to make a voluntary Peace Offering, after taking it to the temple or tabernacle and placing his hands upon the live beast to "transfer" his sins to the animal, the sacred part -  the fat and the blood - was then offered first to God.  Next, the priesthood received their portion, after which the remaining flesh of the animal was free to be eaten by the man who gave the offering.  On one condition, though.  He could have it for dinner the first day when it had been given back to him.  And during the SECOND DAY also.  But on THE THIRD DAY, if the man and his family had not consumed the Peace Offering completely before then, the flesh had to be burned, because it had become abominable.  If they went ahead and ate of it that third day, they would be cut off from their own people for this serious offense. 

The Peace Offering was unique also in that it went above and beyond what a burnt offering would do.  Those burnt offerings were to deal with sin, but the Peace Offering went beyond this point, and illustrated that Peace existed between God and that man, and that full fellowship and comradeship had been restored (pictured by the man's shared eating of the sacrifice with God and the priesthood).

Now, switch over to the condition of the nation of Israel in their exiled condition under the Babylonians, which is the context of Hosea's prophecy.  Because of her disobedience to God, Judah and her capitol, Jerusalem, would die completely under the Babylonian invasion and 3 deportations.  God would SACRIFICE THE ENTIRE NATION for the sin of the majority.  But there would be some "good figs" beside the "bad figs" within that nation (Daniel, his 3 friends, etc.) who would go to Babylon in the first deportation.  These "good figs" had God's promise that after 70 years, they would return and be revived as a whole nation of a united Israel and Judah again (as shown by the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 becoming one in his hand). 

Just as in the rules for the Peace Offering, God would not wait to revive the nation when it was too late, (that is, on the third day when these leftover remnants would have become abominable and would have to be totally burned).  He made sure to revive them in a timely manner by raising those dry bones of the nation of Israel to life on the SECOND DAY.  It's a symbolic "second day", not a literal second day, even though the law for the Peace Offering WAS a literal second and third day of 24 hours that was intended.   Hosea's prophecy is playing on this symbolism to make his point that God did not regard the entire nation as abominable at that time - there were good elements within it that He intended to preserve and restore to their own land again after that 70 years.   

Just as the Peace Offering was intended to look forward to a restored wholeness of peace and fellowship with God in the meal that the man shared with God and the priesthood, God would again be in fellowship with His restored nation of Israel in the post-exilic return, when scripture tells us that there was a real revival that took place among the spirit of the people as they were rebuilding.

As you have said, Daniel did indeed speak of the future, not the past.  But it was a prophecy that was future to HIM, not what is future to us today.  Hosea, too, spoke of the future, not the past.  But again, it was future to HIM, not what is future to us today.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 11:39:11 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #4 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 14:13:47 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #5 on: Sat Oct 14, 2017 - 19:12:45 »
3 Resurrection. Hmmmm, NO!. None of your comments on 2300 days, 1290, and 1335 days has anything to do with the context of any of the dates spoken of, Nothing! Daniel 8 deals with the vision of the ram (Medio Persia) and the goat, meaning Greece. It stops at Ver.14 (2300 days) with Greece. The "daily (perpetual) sacrifice is what? That Temple and it's priest were illegal. They could have piled the blood of animal's to the ceiling of the temple, and 100 Antiochus's could have spilled pigs blood in the Temple ceiling, God could have cared less. God had abandoned the Jews for 400 years until John and his Son were born. When the Son of God came to them, this was Israel's moment to repent, but they blew it!

What have the Maccabean times to do with the context of these verses? Nothing! The prophesy begins with the ram (Medio Persia) and the goat (Alexander). Alexander dies (great horn broken). From his death rose his 4 generals (four notable horns) and from the four came one, King Seleucid, and from him would come his son and their sons, the family of Antiochus ---- they covered a period of some 240 + years. This 2300 days (years) begins with the consolidation of the Seleucid (Greek) empire in 281 B.C., you know the belly and two thighs of brass in Nebuchadnezzar's image of a man. The King of the North, Seleucid defeated Ptolemy in the South He ruled as King from Persia and a defeated Ptolemy continued to rule from the South, Egypt.

As far as Hosea goes, when were the Jews ever healed of their sins? Never! There sins are what got them thrown out of their land in 70 A.D., the same sins they had been committing before the Assyrians came, before Nebuchadnezzar came, idol worship. Hosea writes, "come let us (the Jews) return to the Lord" Hosea's was pleading with them! The Jews never listened to any of God's prophets. They have never returned to the LORD. What they did to Jesus is enough proof. But, one day in the future, when the vengeance of God has been appeased, at the end of the tribulation, then will God revive them, and make them alive. This would agree with Ezekiel's broken stick that will one day be healed in the Lord's hand, and made one again. The Jews were never "revived" meaning to be made alive in Spirit? Never! not yet they haven't. As far as Daniel 12 goes, the whole chapter concerns the times of the end, still future; but certainly not during the time of Herod's Temple and of the Maccabees. 

Look 3 Resurrections, the reason I returned to this site is to share what I have uncovered recently, Stay with me, let me conclude my findings. I will stop if no one listens to what I have to share. I have to peace meal this information because there is so much of it. Negativity kills a debate, and I will not argue these matters. I have put in thousands of hours, I believe the Lord has been feeding me certain things. I'm not writing a book, or looking for fame and fortune. If my information is correct, we need to warn people. If not, I suppose I will have made a fool of myself. And if I am wrong, no harm will have been done. I'm beginning to understand what Noah went through, nobody listened.
Phil

Offline 4WD

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #6 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 07:27:07 »
LaSpino3  -  I would agree with you that 2 Peter 3:8 is indeed speaking of a literal thousand, simply by the context wrapped around it.  Peter wanted to make clear to his readers one very important point.  If they missed everything else he was speaking about, he at least wanted them to be certain of this one detail: God was equating one day with a literal thousand years.  It is similar to the day / year principle that we find elsewhere in scripture, except in this case, Peter is equating a day with a literal thousand years.
That is not even rational at any level.  The whole point is that God is not constrained by time.  That is the substance of His declaration that He is "The I AM".  He is eternal. Time is not associated with the eternal.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #7 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 10:59:01 »
Let me put it this way, whenever we discuss end time prophesy we have to determine the beginning of a prophesy and let the events describe, or let history determine when the end was/is/or, will be fulfilled. Example, how can we determine when the Lord returns? Scriptures tell us, It's the day he sets his foot on the Mt. of Olives, Acts 1:11. And if I'm correct, Hosea's two days (two thousand years) give us a clue as to when. All we need to do then, is determine when the 2 thousand years began.

Nebuchadnezzar's image of a man has given us a continued march through the history of empires. To this day, 2620 years have passed and what we are waiting for is the "catching away of the church" before the 7 years of tribulation begin, and the Lord crushes the feet aon the image and every empire is made as dust.  Not going to discuss this subject here. And when will it end, when 7 years are finished, this fulfilling Daniel 9:24.

Daniel speaks of particular periods of time 1290, 1335, 2300: Hosea speaks of 2 day and also of a third day. Also I understanding that 6000 years have been given to mankind. Now many  may not agree with that, but that's OK. Now all I was attempting to get across is, we have to determine time, and in so doing we have to remain consistent in all our determinations. We can't say 1290 days means 1290, twenty four hour days, then say 1335 represents 1335 year, and Hosea's two days are symbolic, and the third day represents the literal 1000 year reign of Christ. 

That's all I was attempting to get across.
Phil

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Being Consistent
« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 15:52:20 »
Although every doctrinal context is unique, there are certain ingredients that can be integral to virtually every situation, every dogma, and conclusion. Concerning end time prophesy, of course it’s discernment at times can become confusing, but not so much if we set for ourselves a course of study structured around certain centerpieces. These centerpieces should make explicit every core concept, and, that concept capable of reinforcing that which came before, and that which is to follow.

What’s the backbone of Scripture? Of course, it’s the Lord Jesus Christ; His finished work; the will of His Father; and the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Lacking this framework and central core, every study will collapse into confusion and chaos, supporting nothing but opinion.

Each of us must partner-up with others, collaborate, share, examine, provide mutual support, then reflect on every detail brought forth. Christian’s are supposed to be one body having one head, not a two-headed aberration. 
 
Here in lies the problem, “pride, and fragile egos”. We must set these things aside, if not, they will become an insurmountable wall. 
 
Learn to ask questions first; secondly set forth a program that should bring correct conclusions. It’s easy, just set your mind to it. 

How many times have we treated our brothers and sisters in Christ as the enemy. We put hurdles of doubt in front of them; cause them to stumble; to become discouraged, causing them to think about quitting. Then one day, with head down they walk away broken in spirit.   

If our efforts are honest and sincere, we can be as a finished work, molded and fashioned by the hand of God. He will not let us down, never!

“Those who throw mud, have taken that mud from the earth that lies under their own feet!”
Laspino3
 

 

     
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