Author Topic: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE  (Read 2380 times)

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Offline fenton

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i would like to get some more input by those who believe in the gifts, etc.   ::smile::  ::playingguitar:: ::clappingoverhead::

hopefully we wont get spamed by non believers.   ::prayinghard::


Offline fenton

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 14:33:25 »
brother p.rehbein    ::woo:: ::woo:: ::wave::

i hope you dont mind me reposting this here

i would like to continue this with a mod keeping it where it belongs without trolls.




A summation of 1st Corinthians 13:8

(from the Homiletic Commentary:  the Homiletic Commentary is one of the most respected Commentaries, and is used by many different Denominations.)
  
1st Corinthians 13:8) Charity never faileth:  but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

As we were speaking of divine healing, and if the Holy Spirit is still within us today and dispensing the gifts of the Spirit, this passage of Scripture was used to try and prove that the Holy Spirit does not still come and reside in believers today, and the various gifts of the Spirit are no longer dispensed today.  In effect, some folks believe that Spiritual gifts have ceased, and that the Holy Spirit no longer fills our hearts with His wondrous presence, and dispensing gifts as He deems necessary for us to accomplish what God has set before us.

Points to consider:

1)    To put verse 8 in proper perspective, we must look back to verses 1, 2, and 3.  Remember that in Chapter 7, the Apostle was explaining the gifts of the Spirit, and exhorting us to “covet earnestly

notreligus

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:15:35 »
i would like to get some more input by those who believe in the gifts, etc.   ::smile::  ::playingguitar:: ::clappingoverhead::

hopefully we wont get spamed by non believers.   ::prayinghard::



I know that the Holy Spirit has not gone on Sabbatical leave and He gifts people today. 

There is a brand of dispensationalism called Mid-Acts Dispensationalism who are cessationists.  They believe that once the Apostle Paul completed his epistles to the Church then there was no more need for supernatural gifts.  I believe that this teaching is a heresy.

Offline grace

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:26:26 »
i would like to get some more input by those who believe in the gifts, etc.   ::smile::  ::playingguitar:: ::clappingoverhead::

hopefully we wont get spamed by non believers.   ::prayinghard::



Love to talk about the gift (Holy Spirit) and the manifestations of that gift..
Word of wisdom
word of knowledge
faith
gifts of healing
working of miracles
prophecy
discerning of spirits
kinds of tongues
interpretation of tongues

1 Cor. 12:7 " Now to each one the MANIFESTATION of the Spirit is given for the common good."

Manifestation is a good translation of the Greek, which means "a manifestation, a making visible of observable."  This makes it detectable by the five senses. 

Example:
Light bulb manifest the Electric energy as light and heat.
Chicken pox disease is manifested by a rash.

Swiss army knife is also a good example of the difference between the gift and a manifestation.  A Swiss Army knife has tow blades, two screwdrivers, can opener, an awl, scissors, a file and a pair of tweezers (nine manifestations). We might receive the knife as a gift, but we only use the manifestation of that knife as needed.

These examples are intended to show the difference between the gift and a manifestation. Only one gift (HOly Spirit) with many manifestations.

The gift (Holy Spirit) is not observable or detected by our five senses. Its presence inside a Christian becomes known when it is made obvious in the sense world.

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:26:26 »

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #4 on: Tue Aug 07, 2012 - 22:11:11 »
1 Cor 12 & 14 are good books to read for this subject.
There are GIFTS and MANIFESTATIONS. 1 Cor 12:7-11 lists them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,  to another a message of knowledge  by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith  by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing  by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers,  to another prophecy,  to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,  and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,  and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
The ones in bold are manifestations, and the ONE in blue is a gift plural. Paul distinguishes this one, and in the past there have been people who amply reflected this dispensation by the Holy Spirit. Kathryn Kulman and Oral Roberts come to mind. Daily in the church, we see the manifestations, but the gifts of healing seem to be decreasing in my view. I can't tell if it's lack of faith to receive them or the fact that so many who did before seemed to go off the deep end.  They are still ALL relevant for today but abuse by many have made them appear to be only for kooks. The church needs to stop worrying about who has done it wrong in the past and move on in faith and power. I myself, long to see the old Pentecostal power in ALL churches.
 

Offline Willie T

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 07, 2012 - 22:22:40 »
That's a nice post.  Thank you for it.

Offline Hartofgold8679

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 07, 2012 - 22:52:54 »
I have been doing alot of study on this topic, I have a question about 1Cor 13;8-10. Can anyone explain what the "perfect" means? I have my own thoughts on it but I'm not totay sure. I do not beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed.

Offline Willie T

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 07, 2012 - 23:21:26 »
Here's how one man, Joseph Prince, sees it....

People are afraid to preach the gospel of grace because they think that if they preach grace, believers will go out and sin.  They seem to have more confidence in man’s flesh to keep the law than in the power of the cross.  Yet, it is not grace that stirs up sin, it is the law.  (Romans 7:7,8)

Don’t forget that after Israel boasted to God, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do”, (Exodus 19:8), they broke the very first commandment and made a golden calf at the foot of Mount Sinai.  Have you ever read, “the strength of sin is the law”? (1 Cor. 15:56)  The more you try to keep the law and not sin, the worse it becomes.  For example, if I tell you not to think of a purple dinosaur right now, what is the first thing that pops into your head?

Come on, I told you not to think of a purple dinosaur.  Get that picture of the purple dinosaur out of your head!  (Say, are you thinking of Barney?)

The more you try not to see a purple dinosaur, the more your mind is occupied with that silly purple dinosaur.  You see, you cannot help it.  The harder you try, the more you will see that purple dinosaur.  In the same way, the more you put yourself under the law – the more you try not to sin – the more conscious you will be of sin.

Imagine a man who knows that he has a problem with lust.  When he gets up in the morning, he tells the Lord, “Lord, give me victory today.  Help me not to lust after women.  I do not want to lust, so help me not to lust today.  I will not lust.  I will not lust.  I will not…”

But the moment he steps out of his apartment and sees someone walking by in a skirt, what do you think would be his first thought?  It would be a lustful thought!  The more he tries not to lust, the more his mind is occupied with lust.  In fact, anything in a skirt would trigger his mind to lust, even if the person walking by in a “skirt” is a Scotsman in a kilt!

Imagine another scenario where a lady says to herself, “I really can’t stand that colleague.  She always seems to say things to me that make me so angry.  But since I am a Christian, I will do my best to love her.  I will obey the law.  I will love her.  I will love her as myself.  I will…”  Even as she drives to work, this lady thinks to herself, “I will not be angry with her when I see her.  I will love her.”

But guess what?  the moment she steps into her office, the colleague that she is trying to love greets her with a bright and chipper “Good morning!”  Instantly, instead of love, she feels anger and irritation – “It’s the way she says ‘good morning’.  It’s so pretentious!  She’s a hypocrite!  I hate her!”  And the more she tries to like her colleague, the worse it becomes.  Have you been there before?

Let’s take another Christian who has a problem with lust and anger.  But this Christian believes in grace, so when he wakes up, he tells the Lord, “Lord, I am not even going to try today.  I know I cannot overcome this on my own.  Lord, I rest in You. You live the victorious life for me.  I cannot overcome lust by my own strength.  I cannot love that colleague by my own strength.  My eyes are on You.  Even though I cannot, I know that You can.  Thank You for Your grace.  I will just be cool.”

Then he leaves his home and goes to work.  As he is driving to work, he sees a huge billboard showing a woman in a bikini.  And when he feels tempted to lust, he says, “Thank You Father, I am the righteousness of God in Christ.  I know that You are here with me.  I have not lost Your presence.  Even when I fail, You are with me.  Thank You for Your grace.”  The temptation comes and the temptation goes.  He is at rest.  He does not pull over to the side of the road and lament, “Oh God, why is this happening again?  Please forgive me, Lord!” because he knows that the more he confesses and focuses on his weakness, the worse it becomes.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 09:18:41 by Willie T »

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #8 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 01:23:19 »
I have been doing alot of study on this topic, I have a question about 1Cor 13;8-10. Can anyone explain what the "perfect" means? I have my own thoughts on it but I'm not totay sure. I do not beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed.
The word there is not 'perfect' it is 'complete' or 'completeness'. We will be complete when Jesus returns.
 

Lively Stone

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #9 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 04:21:41 »
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Amplified
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

Offline Hartofgold8679

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #10 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 09:30:22 »
I have been doing alot of study on this topic, I have a question about 1Cor 13;8-10. Can anyone explain what the "perfect" means? I have my own thoughts on it but I'm not totay sure. I do not beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed.
The word there is not 'perfect' it is 'complete' or 'completeness'. We will be complete when Jesus returns.

Perfect is the word used in all translations that I am using so thats why I used it. And is there a place in scripture that says its refering to Jesus returning?

Offline Hartofgold8679

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #11 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 09:33:04 »
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Amplified
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

That doesn't answer the question about what perfect is refering to. I want to know what perfect is refering to and if there any scripture that goes with it.

Offline Willie T

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #12 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 09:42:00 »
The perfect and completed work of Christ on the cross (remember He said "It is finished!"?) ushered in GRACE.... the closest thing to perfect we are going to know until He returns.

Offline grace

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #13 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 10:00:44 »
The perfect and completed work of Christ on the cross (remember He said "It is finished!"?) ushered in GRACE.... the closest thing to perfect we are going to know until He returns.
I believe that it is His return because that is when we are going to see Him face to face...and...that is when we are going to know as we are known.

Offline Hartofgold8679

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #14 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 11:13:05 »
Ok I got it. 1Cor 13; 12 clears it up for me.  ::smile:: I just had to go back and really read te scripture before and after again, lol. I think the reason for the lack of the manifestation of the gifts is due to a few things. Frist I think the our common enemy, the devil, has decieved alot to think that they have pasted, he knows the power and victory we would have in our lives if we allowed the gifts to manifest through us. Also that then leads to doubt ad unbelief  on our part. We do very much live in a fallin world and we have become dependent on man not God so much so that alot of people are not becoming spiritualy mature. Being spiritual is biblical, its not some new age mumbo jumbo. It is a supernatural why of living and it is awsome. I look back at my old self and I can not imagine ever living that way again, not after I have come to know God by His son Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. I also think that we have become very hard hearted. We are embarassed to show love to one another, its so much easier to jump on someone and attack them then it is to have a merciful attitude. And when we do see someone that is living/showing the love of God we become defensive and attack also, we think they are fake or wierd. I think the enemy is doing a good job of pitting us against each other and most don't see it, or are full of so much pride they don't waNt to admmit they are wrong let alone change.Anyway sorry for going on and getting off topic sort of lol.  I just pray for that day when there is a showing of Gods gifts through the Holy Spirit and we will all be of one faith and not divded. Thank God for His infinite patients!
 
Truly and Humbly Yours
Anastasia

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #15 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 11:49:01 »
I am wondering why this is in "debates" when the OP said specifically NOT A DEBATE.

That said, there is a lot more to the gifts than just a list of 9 in 1 Cor 12.  There are actually 4 (or 5) different lists:

Romans 12
1 Cor 12
Eph 4
1 Peter 4

Remember 12 12 4 4 (thank you Chuck Swindoll)

Some are supernatural (like prophecy and healings) and others are more natural skill sets.  By mixing them up, the apostles indicate that either way, they are Holy Spirit empowered.

Rom 12.6 Having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, if prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith;
7 or service, let us give ourselves to service; or he who teaches, to his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, to his exhorting: he who gives, let him do it with liberality; he who rules, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


1 Cor 12.8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit;
10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.

And 1 Cor 12 has a 2nd list (if counted seperately makes 5 lists)

1 Cor 12.28 God has set some in the assembly: first emissaries, second prophets, third teachers, then miracle workers, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, and various kinds of languages.

Eph 4.11 He gave some to be emissaries; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers;

1 Pet 4.10 As each has received a gift, employ it in serving one another, as good managers of the grace of God in its various forms.
11 If anyone speaks, let it be as it were the very words of God. If anyone serves, let it be as of the strength which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Yeshua the Messiah, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Lively Stone

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #16 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 14:00:21 »
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Amplified
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

That doesn't answer the question about what perfect is refering to. I want to know what perfect is refering to and if there any scripture that goes with it.

The perfect refers to the return of Jesus, to completely reconcile all things.

Offline fenton

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #17 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 15:06:20 »
i ment for it to be for believers in the gifts etc...  if no one believes in them then they were not invited. 

Offline Willie T

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #18 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 15:25:58 »
I believe that it is His return because that is when we are going to see Him face to face...and...that is when we are going to know as we are known.
So you feel nothing happened here on Earth, or in us, towards that perfction when He sent the Holy Spirit (upon His return to Heaven) to enable power and works through us?

We see the movings all over the Earth every day, yet that is not a sampling of the "soon to come" perfection His return will bring?

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #19 on: Wed Aug 08, 2012 - 15:34:30 »
I have been doing alot of study on this topic, I have a question about 1Cor 13;8-10. Can anyone explain what the "perfect" means? I have my own thoughts on it but I'm not totay sure. I do not beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed.

The word there is not 'perfect' it is 'complete' or 'completeness'. We will be complete when Jesus returns.


Perfect is the word used in all translations that I am using so thats why I used it. And is there a place in scripture that says its refering to Jesus returning?

It's not in the ones I use.
  • 1 John 2:5
    But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:
  • 1 John 4:12
    No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
  • 1 John 4:17
    This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
Jesus is the one who makes us complete. He gives us what no person ever had until His sacrifice. The day of His return, we WILL be perfect.
  • 1 Corinthians 15:52
    in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.



Offline gbzone

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #20 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 07:33:28 »
i would like to get some more input by those who believe in the gifts, etc.   ::smile::  ::playingguitar:: ::clappingoverhead::

hopefully we wont get spamed by non believers.   ::prayinghard::

To those that believe the gifts and particular  the speaking of tounges is proof of the Holy ghost it is not.
The proof of the Holy Spirit is the FRUITS.
It si by thier fruits ye shall know them.
Not by prophecy tounges and healings.

Given that this website has opened the door to unbeleivers by giving space /room to every variable doctrin of devils and worldly things ; why is it surprising that there is a lot of spurios questions .divertions and vain debates?

The gifts are there  fro the edyfying of the body principley and not for self glorying........"I have the gift of ... and  etc.
What ever gift is given severely as HE wills  then its for a purpose and if jesus said I can  do nothing of myself but the father who is in me he doeth the work.
If he gloried noty in himself but in the father.
How then can we glory in anythign save in Christ?
For it is not I who doewth the work but the Spirit of Christ who doeth it.

Offline fish153

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #21 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 11:39:58 »
I believe all the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 are active today.  I believe the fruits of the Spirit are far more important than the gifts---but I do not believe that any of the
gifts have stopped being given by God the Spirit. They are all given for the edification of the church and still in operation today.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #22 on: Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 15:27:35 »
i would like to get some more input by those who believe in the gifts, etc.   ::smile:: ::playingguitar:: ::clappingoverhead::

hopefully we wont get spamed by non believers.   ::prayinghard::


To those that believe the gifts and particular  the speaking of tounges is proof of the Holy ghost it is not.
The proof of the Holy Spirit is the FRUITS.
It si by thier fruits ye shall know them.
Not by prophecy tounges and healings.

Given that this website has opened the door to unbeleivers by giving space /room to every variable doctrin of devils and worldly things ; why is it surprising that there is a lot of spurios questions .divertions and vain debates?

The gifts are there  fro the edyfying of the body principley and not for self glorying........"I have the gift of ... and  etc.
What ever gift is given severely as HE wills  then its for a purpose and if jesus said I can  do nothing of myself but the father who is in me he doeth the work.
If he gloried noty in himself but in the father.
How then can we glory in anythign save in Christ?
For it is not I who doewth the work but the Spirit of Christ who doeth it.


Speaking in tongues after receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit is THE initial evidence of such, which Acts clearly demonstrates, as I have quoted below. It is called a precedent, which does not have to be repeated again and again to establish itself as one. There is afterwards, other evidences and processes, just as there is in our salvation walk. James shows that Faith without works in dead and having the Holy Spirit in us without a continual renewal or topping up, is dead as well. It is VERY important that that WE as believers get it right so WE can pass it on and properly teach new converts. Accepting Jesus as Saviour is the first step. Those who submit to Jesus, will usually not have a problem following the Biblically established process, IF they are taught properly. Implying that this teaching is a 'doctrine of demons' is NOT proper and goes against the OP, who explicitly requested NO debate. I regret I am being forced to defend the truth in this thread against the OP's specific request.
Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues  as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 10:46
For they heard them speaking in tongues  and praising God.
Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues  and prophesied.

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #23 on: Thu Aug 16, 2012 - 10:05:06 »

Speaking in tongues after receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit is THE initial evidence of such, which Acts clearly demonstrates, as I have quoted below. It is called a precedent, which does not have to be repeated again and again to establish itself as one.

Tongues is NOT the evidence, initial or otherwise, of the baptism in the Spirit.  Scripturally, prophecy is.  Joel 2.28 which Peter quotes in Acts 2 says NOTHING about tongues. And the tongues that happened in Acts 2 was the "tongues of men" which was understood and WAS prophecy.  The "tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13) cannot be considered prophecy without an interpreter.

Besides, Acts 2 is NOT the infilling of the Spirit. That already happened in John 20.22.  Acts 2 is when the Spirit came ON them (not IN them) for acts of power.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #24 on: Thu Aug 16, 2012 - 21:42:49 »

Speaking in tongues after receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit is THE initial evidence of such, which Acts clearly demonstrates, as I have quoted below. It is called a precedent, which does not have to be repeated again and again to establish itself as one.


Tongues is NOT the evidence, initial or otherwise, of the baptism in the Spirit.  Scripturally, prophecy is.  Joel 2.28 which Peter quotes in Acts 2 says NOTHING about tongues. And the tongues that happened in Acts 2 was the "tongues of men" which was understood and WAS prophecy.  The "tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13) cannot be considered prophecy without an interpreter.

Besides, Acts 2 is NOT the infilling of the Spirit. That already happened in John 20.22.  Acts 2 is when the Spirit came ON them (not IN them) for acts of power.

 
So you don't accept the scriptures I quoted?  So Peter says the speaking in tongues that the 'God fearing Jews' heard WAS what Joel talked about and yet YOU say Joel didn't talk about tongues. So who are we to believe, Peter, Joel or Jesus? Where do you see "tongues of men" in Acts 2? The Greek word here for 'other', is heteros, and connotes quality, as in another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different.
There were only the 12 Apostles speaking in tongues, and more than 15 languages represented there, if the crowd ONLY consisted of one of each language mentioned, which is doubtful. 3000 were added that day, which makes the crowd much larger than 12. What the Holy Spirit was doing was causing those men to HEAR their language, the Apostles were NOT speaking it. Who do you think gives the interpretation of tongues to men?
 
6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, G)'>they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? H)'>8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, I)'>Pontus J)'>and Asia,b]'> K)'>10 Phrygia L)'>and Pamphylia, M)'>Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; N)'>visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
 
I'm pretty sure the WONDERS of GOD is NOT prophecy as you assert.
 
The 'tongues of angels' only related to Paul's writing of 1 Cor 13 in as much as he used it as an allegory in relation to a loving attitude. He deals with tongues quite succinctly in 1Cor 12 & 14. Maybe you have other scriptures that talk about 'tongues of angels'?
 
What Jesus did in John 20:22 was to give His Apostles the power to forgive sins. What He instructed them to do in Acts 1:4-8 was WAIT for the Baptism/Infilling of the Holy Spirit. Also please read the following;
John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

 
 
 

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #25 on: Tue Aug 21, 2012 - 09:50:40 »

So you don't accept the scriptures I quoted? 
I accept them as an accurate record of what happened.  I do not accept the meaning you put with them. 

Quote
So Peter says the speaking in tongues that the 'God fearing Jews' heard WAS what Joel talked about and yet YOU say Joel didn't talk about tongues. So who are we to believe, Peter, Joel or Jesus? Where do you see "tongues of men" in Acts 2? The Greek word here for 'other', is heteros, and connotes quality, as in another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different.

Where do I see "tongues of men?" Here:

Acts 2.8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”

They were speaking all those natural languages by the unction of the Holy Spirit.  That would be like me speaking Mandarin or Swahili or Vietnamese.   That is an understood language.  That would fit the definition of prophecy.
Quote
There were only the 12 Apostles speaking in tongues, and more than 15 languages represented there,

There were 120 there.  (Acts 1.15)

Quote
What the Holy Spirit was doing was causing those men to HEAR their language, the Apostles were NOT speaking it.

Based on what?  Verse 11 says they were speaking in the various languages.
 
Quote
I'm pretty sure the WONDERS of GOD is NOT prophecy as you assert.

Prophecy is speaking what God wants known in the here and now.  Very little of it has to do with forecasting the future.  It was the message God wanted those men to here at that time so it is prophecy.

Many times a Sunday morning sermon is prophecy.

Quote
The 'tongues of angels' only related to Paul's writing of 1 Cor 13 in as much as he used it as an allegory in relation to a loving attitude. He deals with tongues quite succinctly in 1Cor 12 & 14. Maybe you have other scriptures that talk about 'tongues of angels'?

 
Elsewhere it is called an "Unknown" tongue.  It is a language not known to humans. "Tongues of men" is a language that IS known to someone somewhere.

Quote
What Jesus did in John 20:22 was to give His Apostles the power to forgive sins. What He instructed them to do in Acts 1:4-8 was WAIT for the Baptism/Infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Power to forgive sins AND the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  What He told them to wait for was the "Spirit Upon" giving them power. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is "Spirit Upon" and not "Spirit Within."

Quote
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

That spoke of both "Spirit Upon" and "Spirit Within." It was prior to the crucifiction.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #26 on: Tue Aug 21, 2012 - 20:34:15 »
I accept them as an accurate record of what happened.  I do not accept the meaning you put with them.
At this point people usually try to supply their own understanding with reason. 

Where do I see "tongues of men?" Here:
Acts 2.8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
They were speaking all those natural languages by the unction of the Holy Spirit.  That would be like me speaking Mandarin or Swahili or Vietnamese.   That is an understood language.  That would fit the definition of prophecy.
Right, so it DOESN'T say 'tongues of men', you refuse to accept the Greek word and it's meaning, and you refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit gave them the understanding?  According to you the Holy Spirit allowed them to speak more languages than the amount that were actually there?
 
There were 120 there.  (Acts 1.15)
Yes Acts 1:15 says there were 120 at THAT time. However, the word 'they' in Acts 2:1 is referring to the 12 Apostles last mentioned in Acts 1:26. This is how grammar works. Also Peter stood up and said in vs 14-15, But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not, as you suppose, drunk, since it is only the third hour of the day.(MOUNCE)


Based on what?  Verse 11 says they were speaking in the various languages.
Verse 11 actually says, we hear them telling in our own tongues. A word you conveniently did NOT make bold in your quotations. Nevertheless, they are still there. Again how can 12 men be speaking more than 12 languages?
 
Prophecy is speaking what God wants known in the here and now.  Very little of it has to do with forecasting the future.  It was the message God wanted those men to here at that time so it is prophecy.
Many times a Sunday morning sermon is prophecy.
Actually tongues and interpretation is for the here and now. Prophecy is for the future. Always has, always will. Sermons and teaching is just that, try not to confuse the different offices and manifestations that Jesus gave to the church. They are different for His reasons and we need to understand that using what we have in scripture to teach us.




Elsewhere it is called an "Unknown" tongue.  It is a language not known to humans. "Tongues of men" is a language that IS known to someone somewhere.
Again as I have previously stated, 'unknown' is new and different. It is NOT the same old languages.
 

Power to forgive sins AND the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  What He told them to wait for was the "Spirit Upon" giving them power. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is "Spirit Upon" and not "Spirit Within."

That is OT wording, and NOT found in the NT/NC. The difference between the OC and NC is that God resides IN us, NOT upon us.
 

That spoke of both "Spirit Upon" and "Spirit Within." It was prior to the crucifixion.

Then why bring it up if you're just going to turn around and discount it as PRIOR to crucifixion? Isn't that a tad disingenuous?
 
 

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #27 on: Wed Aug 22, 2012 - 06:22:57 »
Stan, it is too lengthy to post here so I suggest you get a book by Presbyterian pastors Z.Brad Long and Doug McMurray called "Receiving the Power."

It has a section that goes into the issue of Spirit upon and Spirit within; both happened in the Mosaic and New Covenants. They go into the Hebrew and the Greek (which makes it clearer than the English) to show the difference and that both happened back then and today.

http://www.amazon.com/Receiving-Power-Preparing-Holy-Spirit/dp/0800792467

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #28 on: Wed Aug 22, 2012 - 06:28:33 »
That spoke of both "Spirit Upon" and "Spirit Within." It was prior to the crucifixion.

Then why bring it up if you're just going to turn around and discount it as PRIOR to crucifixion? Isn't that a tad disingenuous?
Why do you think I am discounting anything?

I am just giving a timeline.  If that hurts my case in your eyes, sobeit. It really supports my case.

General observation:  You are seeing too much of a hard break between the Mosaic and New covenants. There is more continuity than you might care to imagine.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #29 on: Wed Aug 22, 2012 - 18:16:13 »
Stan, it is too lengthy to post here so I suggest you get a book by Presbyterian pastors Z.Brad Long and Doug McMurray called "Receiving the Power."

It has a section that goes into the issue of Spirit upon and Spirit within; both happened in the Mosaic and New Covenants. They go into the Hebrew and the Greek (which makes it clearer than the English) to show the difference and that both happened back then and today.

http://www.amazon.com/Receiving-Power-Preparing-Holy-Spirit/dp/0800792467

 
Thanks, but I am more than properly grounded in the Holy Spirit and how He impacts my life.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #30 on: Wed Aug 22, 2012 - 18:22:52 »
That spoke of both "Spirit Upon" and "Spirit Within." It was prior to the crucifixion.

Then why bring it up if you're just going to turn around and discount it as PRIOR to crucifixion? Isn't that a tad disingenuous?
Why do you think I am discounting anything?

I am just giving a timeline.  If that hurts my case in your eyes, sobeit. It really supports my case.

General observation:  You are seeing too much of a hard break between the Mosaic and New covenants. There is more continuity than you might care to imagine.
I don't really klnow why you did, you just did based on how you framed your response.
Pointed observation, There IS a hard break. Please read Hebrews 8:7-13. Luke explains it very well. Paul also addresses the hard break as does Jesus. Continuity is for the Hebrews, God's chosen. It is NOT for us, the Gentiles. Our relationship starts fresh and new, because God extended salvation to the Gentiles. We no longer have to become Hebrew to re3ceive God's grace and salvation. Remember? To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.
 
 

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 24, 2012 - 08:33:28 »
I don't really know why you did, you just did based on how you framed your response.
Pointed observation, There IS a hard break. Please read Hebrews 8:7-13. Luke explains it very well. Paul also addresses the hard break as does Jesus. Continuity is for the Hebrews, God's chosen. It is NOT for us, the Gentiles. Our relationship starts fresh and new, because God extended salvation to the Gentiles. We no longer have to become Hebrew to re3ceive God's grace and salvation. Remember? To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

So let me get this straight as to what you are saying.  To the Jews who had the Mosaic Covenant there is no hard break going into the New Covenant; but to the gentiles who did NOT have the Mosaic covenant in the first place there IS a hard break between the Mosaic and New Covenants?

That does not make sense.

Stan53

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #32 on: Fri Aug 24, 2012 - 14:46:55 »
I don't really know why you did, you just did based on how you framed your response.
Pointed observation, There IS a hard break. Please read Hebrews 8:7-13. Luke explains it very well. Paul also addresses the hard break as does Jesus. Continuity is for the Hebrews, God's chosen. It is NOT for us, the Gentiles. Our relationship starts fresh and new, because God extended salvation to the Gentiles. We no longer have to become Hebrew to receive God's grace and salvation. Remember? To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

So let me get this straight as to what you are saying.  To the Jews who had the Mosaic Covenant there is no hard break going into the New Covenant; but to the gentiles who did NOT have the Mosaic covenant in the first place there IS a hard break between the Mosaic and New Covenants?

That does not make sense.
Dave, I addressed your post where you said, "General observation:  You are seeing too much of a hard break between the Mosaic and New covenants."
The NC is for the Jews and ALSO for the Gentiles. It is NEW for the Jews and a hard break, from the OC. It is new, completely, for us Gentiles as we never had a covenant with God before. It is NOT a hard break because we weren't under the OC.
 

Offline DaveW

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #33 on: Mon Aug 27, 2012 - 07:03:52 »
I completely disagree that there is any "hard break." Indeed if you are a Jew coming into the New Covenant you will find that much remains the same. The decision of Acts 15 to allow gentiles to NOT follow Moses was extended ONLY to gentiles.

Acts 21.21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law
  25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality.”


If Paul, who wrote so strongly about being free from the Law (to his gentile followers), himself lived "... in observance of the Law," I would say that there is no hard break for Jews.

Offline Tyler

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Re: believers in the Holy Spirit, believers in the gifts NOT a DEBATE
« Reply #34 on: Mon Aug 27, 2012 - 10:59:08 »
If one is not a "NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST (2 Cor. 5:17) your genealogy has no claim on the New Covenant.

John made this clear as he preached in the Jordan.(Matthew 3:ff). Listen to what John said to the Pharisees and Sadusees: O generation of vipers who has warned you from the wrath to come?
Bring forth fruits meet for repentance! ( For God's definition of a "viper" check Isaiah 59:5)

And do not think to say to yourselves, We have Abraham as our father:
for I say to you that God is able to to make children of Abraham of these stones.
And I want to tell you goats something else now that I have your attention.
The axe is already laid at the root of the tree (national Israel).
Therefore, your claim of being a son of Abraham and a quarter will get you a cup of fig juice down at Abe's Quick Stop.....(**)
For if you do not bring forth good fruit, you are coming down by the axe who is in the hand of God.

History reveals that the Jewish leaders were the vipers who called for the crucifixion of Jesus. (Acts 2:23), God wielded the "axe in His hand" with the Roman armies in 70 A.D.
Now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal. 3:27-29) in the eyes of God...you are either a "new creature in Christ" or you are a "viper" in the eyes of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 27, 2012 - 11:25:31 by Tyler »