Christ's Olivet Discourse Are Signs For The End

[dpr]

The Signs Jesus gave in His discourse with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the 7 Signs of Revelation given for the very end of this present world.

Even the Sign Jesus gave that not one stone would be atop another at the temple mount in Jerusalem is one of those 7 Signs for the very end in our near future, when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. There are STILL huge block stones standing at the temple mount today, called the Wailing Wall. Orthodox Jews say prayers standing in front of it. Preterists can't seem to admit this, even though it is a HUGE STONE WALL staring them right in their face!



Jesus said to His servants that when we see "all these things", meaning ALL the Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse for the end, to look up for our Salvation is near. The generation that sees 'all' those things means the FINAL generation living at the end when Jesus returns to this earth like He left it per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14.

But the "synagogue of Satan" does not want us to believe in a literal 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. They want us to believe a LIE that Jesus already returned 'spiritually' back in the Apostle's days.

And one of the telling attributes of their false doctrine that says Jesus has already returned is from the devil, is by how confused they are about the Signs of the end and the time of "great tribulation" involving the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a new temple in Jerusalem.

[3 Resurrections]

Sigh.....

Another person who can’t read Nehemiah’s description of the gates and walls of Jerusalem and figure out that the Temple was NOT built on the present Dome of the Rock location.

That “Wailing Wall” is the foundation base of the old Roman Antonia Fortress - NOT the Temple, which was further south where the Gihon Spring waters were accessible for use in the temple’s rituals requiring “living water” for ceremonial cleanliness.  Your point is moot, if you are depending on the existence of the Wailing Wall to prove your assertions.

I am one that does believe in the “literal”, physical return of Christ back in AD 70, as the entire NT agrees with, and which you deny.  It was NOT simply a “spiritual” return of Christ that succeeded in rapturing all the resurrected saints and taking them back to heaven at that time, as Christ promised the disciples in John 14:3.

I am also one of those rare creatures who ALSO believes in scripture’s presentation of a FUTURE physical return of Christ.  Only it will be His THIRD return, not His second.  I have submitted references related to this third coming of Christ before, which are generally ignored.

Your belief system, dpr, continues to cling to the idea that a supposed “idol”, or statue, will be erected in a future mythical third temple in Jerusalem.  There is ZERO scripture evidence of a future STATUE being the fulfillment of the prophesied AOD.  Since when was a lifeless statue able to cause destruction of anything?  This “desolation” or “destruction” of the AOD was caused by those encompassing “ABOMINABLE ARMIES” that devastated the terrain as well as the city of Jerusalem and its inhabitants, as both Daniel 11:31, 9:27, and Luke 21:20-21 all testify.  This was already fulfilled first by Antiochus IV, and later in AD 66-70 by Cestius Gallus’ Roman troops as well as the competing Zealot armies who preyed upon their own city and countrymen as each faction’s soldiers fought to gain supreme command of the city of Jerusalem.

Speaking of the OT prophets, Josephus records in Wars 4.6.3 that “...yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishment of] vice, which when these Zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophesies belonging to their own country: for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a SEDITION should invade the Jews, AND *THEIR OWN HAND* SHOULD POLLUTE THE TEMPLE OF GOD.  Now, while these Zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.”

This AOD is already a done deal.  You are almost 2,000 years too late getting the news bulletin, dpr.

[dpr]

The Wailing Wall doesn't have to be part of the old 2nd temple complex to disqualify 70 A.D. being the fulfillment of Jesus saying not one stone atop another will be standing there per Matthew 24. It's obvious this is so too, since HUGE STONES are still there at the temple mount area, called the Wailing Wall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiqNzY8h0qA

[lea]

The "end" came and went.  If the Son made you free, you are free indeed to the garbage futurists talk about.

[robycop3]

The "end" came and went.  If the Son made you free, you are free indeed to the garbage futurists talk about.

 Another pret humbug ! The garbage comes from the prets.

[lea]

Another pret humbug ! The garbage comes from the prets.

More dispensational wacko desperation.

[robycop3]

More dispensational wacko desperation.

  Not a bit of desperation. I have many history boox in fronta me, and I keep up with the news. Seen any great tribs lately? Any world rulers ?

[lea]

  Not a bit of desperation. I have many history boox in fronta me, and I keep up with the news. Seen any great tribs lately? Any world rulers ?

History books won't help you if you can't understand Apocalyptic language in Revelation. - And also "the spiritual kingdom" -  And the intelligence to study the Bible through spiritual eyes and ears.

The early Christians were to pray for Thy Kingdom Come.  It came and continues to this day- prayers for things on earth to be as it is in heaven!  Amen.

[dpr]

That “Wailing Wall” is the foundation base of the old Roman Antonia Fortress - NOT the Temple, which was further south where the Gihon Spring waters were accessible for use in the temple’s rituals requiring “living water” for ceremonial cleanliness.  Your point is moot, if you are depending on the existence of the Wailing Wall to prove your assertions.
....

There it is above, the standard false Preterist rebuttal to the still... existing HUGE STONES STANDING ATOP one another at the temple mount in Jerusalem, called the Western Wall, or Wailing Wall. They don't care to address the HUGE STONES still standing there, but only wish to defer to the idea that that Wall was not part of the temple. Jesus did not specifically say, "only 'these' stones of the temple will not be atop one another". He implied ALL stones will not be standing atop one another at His physical literal 2nd coming, which of course is still future.

[robycop3]

History books won't help you if you can't understand Apocalyptic language in Revelation. - And also "the spiritual kingdom" -  And the intelligence to study the Bible through spiritual eyes and ears.

The early Christians were to pray for Thy Kingdom Come.  It came and continues to this day- prayers for things on earth to be as it is in heaven!  Amen.

  Your "spiritual" view is from the boox of Preston, Gentry, & Alcazar, & is phony as a Ford Corvette.

[lea]

  Your "spiritual" view is from the boox of Preston, Gentry, & Alcazar, & is phony as a Ford Corvette.

That's because you hang on to the flesh (like the Pharisees) and do not understand spiritual things.

His kingdom is here now. You are still longing and longing for it to hit you in the head or something!

[robycop3]

That's because you hang on to the flesh (like the Pharisees) and do not understand spiritual things.

His kingdom is here now. You are still longing and longing for it to hit you in the head or something!

  I understand what REAL Spiritual things are, from the HOLY SPIRIT, the ONLY Spirit that should be important to us now. And preterism is NOT from Him.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi dpr,

Sorry, I was busy with a grandson working on tearing up an asphalt driveway yesterday and couldn’t immediately get back to you.

Yes, of course I realize that Luke does not limit that “not one stone left upon another” statement to the temple alone (which stones of ONLY the temple buildings he refers to in Luke 21:6).  In addition, the buildings “IN THEE”, (that is, all the buildings INSIDE Jerusalem), were also going to be “LAID EVEN WITH THE GROUND”, as Christ told the disciples in Luke 19:44 on a separate occasion.  This was actually fulfilled by the end of the AD 70 period.

This “laid even with the ground” stipulation was fulfilled to the letter, even with the Wailing Wall of the Antonia Fortress still standing today.  That’s because the “Wailing Wall” was not the wall of the fortress itself; it was the grounded foundation base that the Antonia Fortress was sitting upon - the building which WAS “laid even with the ground”, as Christ said.  The Wailing Wall foundation would then actually be BELOW that ground level of the torn-down fortress.

Along with the fulfilled conditions of every building inside Jerusalem being torn down to the last stone by being leveled with the ground, Christ’s second coming occurred in the distant past in AD 70.  But His THIRD coming is also in the distant future for us.  It’s just that the signs you think will apply to that future coming will not be taking place, because they applied only to that past second coming.

[dpr]

Hi dpr,

Sorry, I was busy with a grandson working on tearing up an asphalt driveway yesterday and couldn’t immediately get back to you.

Yes, of course I realize that Luke does not limit that “not one stone left upon another” statement to the temple alone (which stones of ONLY the temple buildings he refers to in Luke 21:6).  In addition, the buildings “IN THEE”, (that is, all the buildings INSIDE Jerusalem), were also going to be “LAID EVEN WITH THE GROUND”, as Christ told the disciples in Luke 19:44 on a separate occasion.  This was actually fulfilled by the end of the AD 70 period.

This “laid even with the ground” stipulation was fulfilled to the letter, even with the Wailing Wall of the Antonia Fortress still standing today.  That’s because the “Wailing Wall” was not the wall of the fortress itself; it was the grounded foundation base that the Antonia Fortress was sitting upon - the building which WAS “laid even with the ground”, as Christ said.  The Wailing Wall foundation would then actually be BELOW that ground level of the torn-down fortress.

Along with the fulfilled conditions of every building inside Jerusalem being torn down to the last stone by being leveled with the ground, Christ’s second coming occurred in the distant past in AD 70.  But His THIRD coming is also in the distant future for us.  It’s just that the signs you think will apply to that future coming will not be taking place, because they applied only to that past second coming.

The Western Wall was part of Herod's extension project of the 2nd temple. Those aren't the only stones still standing at the temple mount. The Dome of the Rock is on the temple mount today also. The Preterist/Historicist theories are just dung, and that's all there is to it. They make no sense whatsoever in regards to the Matthew 24 prophecy.

[lea]

The Western Wall was part of Herod's extension project of the 2nd temple. Those aren't the only stones still standing at the temple mount. The Dome of the Rock is on the temple mount today also. The Preterist/Historicist theories are just dung, and that's all there is to it. They make no sense whatsoever in regards to the Matthew 24 prophecy.

Says you, but Preterism is continuing to gain ground and even the heathen don't believe the Christian futurists fictional position on us being in the end times! And it's not about believing an "apostles' creed" that the apostles didn't even write!

They won't be fooled and I'm around to "witness" to them and give them power for living today in Christ Jesus. 
Christianity is not about Jesus returning a 3rd time.  I make sure it's about the Gospel of Grace. Amen.

[robycop3]

  Preterism is phony as a $3 bill. History proves it false.

  I, & others, have repeatedly asked the prets here for HISTORICAL PROOF those events have occurred, & all we get are fairy tales, re-written history, & fables.

[lea]

  Preterism is phony as a $3 bill. History proves it false.

  I, & others, have repeatedly asked the prets here for HISTORICAL PROOF those events have occurred, & all we get are fairy tales, re-written history, & fables.

I already told you that comparing Scripture with Scripture is the only way to prove your points.

IOWS, it's not historical evidence for interpreting prophesies.

[RB]

The Signs Jesus gave in His discourse with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the 7 Signs of Revelation given for the very end of this present world.

Agreed.......not sure your meaning of 7 signs of Revelation, for there is much in Revelation that could be added to, or agrees with what is in Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; along with 2nd Thess. chapter 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5, etc.

The generation that sees 'all' those things means the FINAL generation living at the end when Jesus returns to this earth

Respectfully must disagree. I once believed the same back around forty years ago~but change my understanding as more light was afforded to me from God, to which I'm very thankful.

THIS generation is explain for us by Jesus Christ himself, "if" we listen carefully to his discourse on when these things shall come to pass.

The main thought of Matthew 24 is Jesus' warning (as well as Paul in 2nd Thess chapter two)  for us not allow any man to deceive us by any means~MAINLY the multitudes of false prophets that shall come in the latter days of the LAST DAY.

Secondly, coming with these false prophets are their converts who are just like them..."a generation of little serpents", who shall overtake the churches (in Judea of Matthew 24~is like saying the place where God is worship) as it was in the OT~earthly Jerusalem being that ordained place to worship God, proven by many OT scriptures and some from the NT.

From Matthew 24:5 down to verse 25 (and Mark 13:14)  the theme is false prophets and their many followers standing where they OUGHT NOT TO BE~that is RULING in the churches of Judea, changing the doctrines of the word of God to fit their own fleshly desires, of a god that they have created in their own depraved heart. When the very elect sees this Abomination in the temple of God, they flee from it and those that are entering therein, they WARNED them against doing so. See Luke 21:21!

"THIS" generation that shall not pass is the generation of evil and wicked men, they shall INCREASE GREATLY in numbers before Jesus returns the SECOND time. Generation is NOT speaking of TIME but PEOPLE and the phrase THIS GENERATION in the scriptures for the MOST PART always has reference to a generation of evil wicked men, in opposition to the chosen generation of the special people of God.

1st Peter 2:9~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

God defines his own words, not Mr. Webster, even though in his own right was brilliant.

Proverbs 30:11-14~There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Generation=PEOPLE, NOT time! There is only two generations of people living in this world, one is chosen and righteous; one is reprobate and wicked the enemy of God and his people. The world will increase greatly toward its end with mostly the generation of wicked men in power BOTH in religion and in secular power. Except those days be shortened then NO FLESH would be saved WITH THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD! We are just about there even as I speak, BUT, who truly believes this to be so? Not very many, and less every day we live.

[3 Resurrections]

For dpr’s comments about the current Dome of the Rock, which he thinks proves that the prophecy about a time when all stones would be leveled with the ground cannot be fulfilled yet.  That’s an insane comment.  Christ was not speaking of a Dome of the Rock being torn down, since, of course, it was built LONG AFTER all the buildings in Jerusalem were torn down by the close of AD 70’s siege by Titus. 

Neither is the current Wailing Wall part of Herod’s Second Temple renovation as you suppose.  It was the foundation supporting the Roman-occupied Antonia Fortress above it, which  Fortress WAS torn down and leveled with the ground by the close of AD 70, just as Christ predicted for that first-century generation before it passed away.  Josephus documented this complete destruction, when all buildings within Jerusalem were razed to ground level, as well as the majority of the walls. 

You have bought into the traditional hype that the Dome of the Rock is the actual site of the Second Temple, when that is an impossibility due to the Gihon Spring’s location.   Those Gihon spring waters were channeled to the location of the Temple for ceremonial use in the Temple rituals, and are not available at the Dome of the Rock location.


For RB,

Your dreary prognosis for the spiritual state of this world just prior to Christ’s future return is COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY to Christ’s optimistic portrayal of the progress of His kingdom in this world.  With your pessimistic mindset, you are almost a duplicate of the pre-mil disp. camp’s depressing paradigm, which you say you have rejected.

How can you reconcile your dismal, hopeless scenario with Christ’s examples of His kingdom compared to the mustard seed’s steady growth, the expansion of the leaven, and the growth of Daniel’s rock into a massive mountain that will fill the earth?  Likewise, how could God, (speaking of Christ), prophesy through Isaiah 9:7 that “Of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be NO END...”? 

Yet you, RB, are saying that this “INCREASE” actually WILL have an end, by the spiritual state of mankind plunging miserably downhill before Christ’s final return.  How can both of these things be true if they are speaking about the same time period?  They can’t.

There is only one way you can reconcile scripture’s predictions of the prevalence of false prophets and “evil men and seducers waxing worse and worse”, as well as scripture also predicting a steady increase of growth for God’s kingdom in this world.  These are speaking of TWO DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS.

The way BOTH of these scriptural scenarios can be true is for Christ to have staged a second coming in AD 70 (with Satan’s massive deception of the nations for that “short time” and “little season” before then, as John in Rev. 12:12 said was then taking place as he was writing), AND ALSO A THIRD COMING in our future (with the steady growth of the kingdom of God in this world ever since the AD 70 era was concluded). 

[robycop3]

  No, Jesus did NOT return in 70 AD. The ONLY return He mentioned is His future physical, visible glorious return immediately after the great trib, & both those events are future, of course.

[RB]

For RB,

Your dreary prognosis for the spiritual state of this world just prior to Christ’s future return is COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY to Christ’s optimistic portrayal of the progress of His kingdom in this world.  With your pessimistic mindset, you are almost a duplicate of the pre-mil disp. camp’s depressing paradigm, which you say you have rejected.

My good man (and I truly believe you are) it truly comes down to one's school of eschatology that they adhere to.

You being an almost "full" preterist, and I might add....so close that it would be hard to tell you apart from a full-blown preterist by the average Christian. By being such, you folks "rubber stamp" much the word of God FULFILLED 70 A.D.! Thereby truly leaving very little scriptures that speak of a little season of falling away and the man of sin taking over the temple of God happening prior to Christ's second coming AND our gathering TOGETHER UNTO CHRIST as already being fulfilled by wickedly using your corrupt rubber stamp! FULLFILLED 70 A.D.! Such scriptures as these meaning nothing to your system of "rubber-stamping FULFILLED 70 A.D.! "

Revelation 14:8-20~"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Mystery Babylon has NOT as of yet fallen as of 6:00 EST USA. Yet her grapes are indeed FULLY ripe! Mystery Babylon being THIS WORLD with its FALSE RELIGIONS and COMMERCE, (its true god) are doing quite well in spite of the so-called pandemic that is in her. But, this is a whole subject within itself that could take DAYS to speak on.

you are almost a duplicate of the pre-mil disp. camp’s depressing paradigm, which you say you have rejected.

Not really close. I could give you a long list of where we are different. Of course, you know that the Premill and Idealist are not even close~if you do not know, just ask, but you do~ so I do not expect you to ask, but do expect you to be honest.

How can you reconcile your dismal, hopeless scenario with Christ’s examples of His kingdom compared to the mustard seed’s steady growth, the expansion of the leaven,

I'm trying to answer you without writing a book. Briefly~I will say this.....The mustard seed grew into something that it WAS NOT TO BE. The fowls of the air~are EVIL SPIRITS in the children of Satan just as the tares were his! He caused them to come and dwell in God's temple and OVERTAKE the same and by doing so, changed the doctrines of the word of God to better suit his wicked fowls dwelling therein. Consider ALL of those parables and see the close connections. Consider: Matthew 13:4 with Matthew 13:19, the fowls of the air came and stole the seed that was sowed! Who were the fowls? The WICKED ONE!  I could keep going, but enough said to prove my point, certainly not yours. Well one more~

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

I do NOT believe you would want to use any of the parables that are in Matthew 13, for they ALL go against your doctrine and exposes it for what it is truly worth.

the growth of Daniel’s rock into a massive mountain that will fill the earth?

It WILL, but not in THIS WORLD but the world TO COME! For this world shall be destroyed by fire, and a new earth and heaven shall be created! Romans 4:13; Hebrews 2:5; 11:9,10; etc.

Likewise, how could God, (speaking of Christ), prophesy through Isaiah 9:7 that “Of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be NO END...”?

Agreed~in the world TO COME.

Later.....RB

[lea]

RB, I think you should quit Eschatology completely. You haven't changed in 10 years and your view is old news.

You are so off the mark with prophecy it's not funny.   Sorry pal.  Either learn from the Preterists reviving you or admit you are just an old school stagnant when it comes to Jesus' fulfilled promises! 

[dpr]

Agreed.......not sure your meaning of 7 signs of Revelation, for there is much in Revelation that could be added to, or agrees with what is in Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; along with 2nd Thess. chapter 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5, etc.

Main point is, the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals in Rev.6. The event flow order links together showing He was giving us the info in the Seals. Means study the Olivet discourse and Rev.6 together.

Respectfully must disagree. I once believed the same back around forty years ago~but change my understanding as more light was afforded to me from God, to which I'm very thankful.

THIS generation is explain for us by Jesus Christ himself, "if" we listen carefully to his discourse on when these things shall come to pass.

The main thought of Matthew 24 is Jesus' warning (as well as Paul in 2nd Thess chapter two)  for us not allow any man to deceive us by any means~MAINLY the multitudes of false prophets that shall come in the latter days of the LAST DAY.
....

Before one can go off into those other Scriptures they must rightly interpret that actual Matthew 24:32-37 Scripture first.

Jesus gave the Signs of the end leading up to His return and gathering of the Church, so with that in mind...

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Jesus commanded us to learn that parable. The fig as a metaphor is used throughout God's Word. But in Jeremiah 24, God showed Jeremiah about two baskets of figs with the good figs representing Judah (or house of Judah). God promised He would return them to land and not remove them again. When did that happen? Can't say with the return from Babylon because the Romans scattered Judah in 70 A.D. 1948 is the only real earmark of that prophecy being fulfilled when Israel became a nation again by U.N. Charter vote.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus says when you 'see' ALL these things, meaning those Signs of the end He gave, then know the end of this world and day of His coming is right around the corner, just like the idea of the tender fig tree putting forth leaves in the spring.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What generation? The generation that sees ALL these things, i.e., the Signs of the end, the very last Sign being that of His 2nd coming and the gathering of His Church. That puts this generation to be the LAST generation on earth, the one that will 'see' His return. And just to mark the timeframe of this subject, He continues giving some more clear indicators of the end and time of His coming...

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

[dpr]

For dpr’s comments about the current Dome of the Rock, which he thinks proves that the prophecy about a time when all stones would be leveled with the ground cannot be fulfilled yet.  That’s an insane comment.  Christ was not speaking of a Dome of the Rock being torn down, since, of course, it was built LONG AFTER all the buildings in Jerusalem were torn down by the close of AD 70’s siege by Titus. 

Neither is the current Wailing Wall part of Herod’s Second Temple renovation as you suppose.  It was the foundation supporting the Roman-occupied Antonia Fortress above it, which  Fortress WAS torn down and leveled with the ground by the close of AD 70, just as Christ predicted for that first-century generation before it passed away.  Josephus documented this complete destruction, when all buildings within Jerusalem were razed to ground level, as well as the majority of the walls. 

You have bought into the traditional hype that the Dome of the Rock is the actual site of the Second Temple, when that is an impossibility due to the Gihon Spring’s location.   Those Gihon spring waters were channeled to the location of the Temple for ceremonial use in the Temple rituals, and are not available at the Dome of the Rock location.

Before you can address any idea about structures standing on the temple mount, you must first address the question Christ's disciples asked Him in relation to the not one stone atop another. They showed they understood Him to be talking about the 'end of the world' and the time of His coming (Matthew 24:2-3). That is the timeframe of their question regarding the not one stone atop another.

Now the Western Wall is part of the old temple mount complex, and goes back to the 2nd century B.C. Those stones are still standing. ANY stone still atop one another there shows the prophecy was not meant for 70 A.D. Anyone who has studied the OT prophets well knows what timing that is for, because God has proclaimed through His prophets that He going to literally SHAKE this earth on the last day of this present world, and all the mountains and islands are going to move out of their place! THAT... is when there won't be ANY stones at the temple mount in Jerusalem standing atop one another.

[RB]

Main point is, the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals in Rev.6. The event flow order links together showing He was giving us the info in the Seals. Means study the Olivet discourse and Rev.6 together.

Thank you and I see what you are saying, only I think that MUCH of Revelation mirrors Daniel 7-12; and the Olivet discourse, etc.

Before one can go off into those other Scriptures they must rightly interpret that actual Matthew 24:32-37 Scripture first.

I must disagree with you. "Why" jump directly to Matthew 24:32-37 before leaving such scriptures as:

Matthew 24:25~"Behold, I have told you before."

A wise student would carefully dissect Matthew 24:4-24 to see exactly what are the SIGNS leading up to Jesus' second coming and what should Christians except to see as this world comes to its end.

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Jesus commanded us to learn that parable. The fig as a metaphor is used throughout God's Word. But in Jeremiah 24, God showed Jeremiah about two baskets of figs with the good figs representing Judah (or house of Judah). God promised He would return them to land and not remove them again. When did that happen? Can't say with the return from Babylon because the Romans scattered Judah in 70 A.D. 1948 is the only real earmark of that prophecy being fulfilled when Israel became a nation again by U.N. Charter vote.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Sorry but I have some meetings coming up very shortly, so I might come back and add to this.

Sir, the fig tree in Matthew 24 has not one thing to do with Israel but was ONLY used to prove a point of NEARNESS of Christ's coming when the things mentioned in Matthew 24:5-25 being to take shape and beginning to come to full fruition.  Just as we know that summer is very close as we see trees begin to bud then we KNOW that summer is right around the corner. 

So the parable of the fig tree has no sufficient meaning other than its tender branches coming out shows summer is nigh.  How do I know this? Many reasons as to why, but one for now. When speaking on the very same subject our Lord said these words:

Luke 21:29,30~"And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand."

So that we would not get hung up on the fig-tree our Lord added ALL TREES~knowing that many would labor to use the fig tree to teach a doctrine that is not in the word of God, our Lord added ALL tree for good reasons!

I want to come back ASAP.

[Rella]

History books won't help you if you can't understand Apocalyptic language in Revelation. - And also "the spiritual kingdom" -  And the intelligence to study the Bible through spiritual eyes and ears.

The early Christians were to pray for Thy Kingdom Come. It came and continues to this day- prayers for things on earth to be as it is in heaven! Amen.

Well, obviously the early Christians failed because Satan ... who is not bound, today... is free to destroy all that God alledgedly said was right.

I said allegedly because we have no actual proof that can be proved today, any more then you have any proof that 70 AD was the end all that was the fulfillment of a prophesy that lasted a mere 40 years.

There will never be any improvement on this earth under your "already happened" scenario.

People will be more and more deceived if that is even possible.

Are you so blinded that you do not see the daily evolving of most  into  sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

And have you forgotten... it is written ,"I warn you, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Under your scenario we are 1 small generation away from anyone being able to escape eternal punishment.

So your prayers are falling on deaf ears.

[Rella]

That's because you hang on to the flesh (like the Pharisees) and do not understand spiritual things.

His kingdom is here now. You are still longing and longing for it to hit you in the head or something!

Now that truly is the most frightening thing I have heard.

You are incapable of understanding that but any non - pret will.

[Rella]

I already told you that comparing Scripture with Scripture is the only way to prove your points.

IOWS, it's not historical evidence for interpreting prophesies.

Okay, you always claim all of Rev has been fulfilled because if John wrote it prior to 70 AD and not in 96 as I contend then all has to have been fulfilled.

So here area few verses that need interpreted and need to be explained to any non-pret. as to when in the 40 years from crucifixion to "your" second coming this happened.

from Rev 6:8 (the 7 seals)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And lets talk about the rest of this chapter....

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


7 :1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

8:13

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!  (If this was written before 70AD there still is a futuristic phrophetic message in this verse alone)

And all of Chapter 9.

You cannot explain these in your temple destruction beliefs.... because they have not happened yet.

[RB]

Main point is, the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals in Rev.6. The event flow order links together showing He was giving us the info in the Seals.

Why I do not disagree that in the Revelation of Jesus Christ (a point that all Preterists should take note of) one can perfectly see much of the Olivet discourse therein. That being said not all of Matthew 24 mirrors Revelation 6, for example consider the white horse.

Revelation 6:2~"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him to show unto his servant John is nothing more than writings showing the history of the church from John unto the New Heaven and Earth, many of the divisions are nothing more than a recapitulation of the events that take place through its history until Christ comes back for the gathering together his elect and the final destruction of the wicked and this present earth. So, yes, Matthew 24 would be a very integral part of Revelation's writings.

The white horse~is the FIRST thing that takes place right after the death of Jesus Christ and his resurrection to heaven. The "white horse" shows the church with the gospel of Jesus Christ going forth as a mightly conqueror turning the world upside down! This horse left Jerusalem and went into all the world freeing those held captive by the Devil serving gods that were no gods! This horse left Jerusalem and went and turn LEFT up into the Roman empire spreading the good news of Jesus Christ, turning men from darkness to the light of the blessed gospel of Christ. So much more could be said, but enough for now.

This being so, nowhere in Matthew 24 is this seen, but what is seen is the latter of the seals of Revelation, up to the coming of Jesus Christ! So, what is the meaning of the white horse to you? Without question, it signifies a VICTORIOUS horse for the GOOD of the people~unlike the other ones. 

[RB]

RB, I think you should quit Eschatology completely. You haven't changed in 10 years and your view is old news.

You are so off the mark with prophecy it's not funny.   Sorry pal. 

Lea, if I quit then God would lose a voice that is so much needed in days of apostasy that is now is reigning in the temple of God. The abomination of desolation now sits speaks lies after lies that will leave its followers UNPREPARED for the evil that is coming.

Either learn from the Preterists reviving you

I do not desire to drink of their poison~I have heeded my Lord's command and Paul's.

Matthew 24:4~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."

Speaking on the same subject, Paul said:

2nd Thessalonians 2:3~"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

You folks do not believe such scriptures as 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5!

admit you are just an old school stagnant when it comes to Jesus' fulfilled promises!

I will admit that I'm TRUSTING for many of them YET to be fulfilled and I'm FULLY persuaded that they will be. I refuse to allow men and women like you and others to rubber stamp God's promises FULFILLED 70 A.D.! leaving me without any hope and UNPREPARED for the evil that will come, the likes this world has never seen!

[DaveW]

You cannot explain these in your temple destruction beliefs.... because they have not happened yet.

Quoted for emphasis.          

[3 Resurrections]

Yes, Rella, these are all historically fulfilled events. 

Christ was the first white horse rider, given a crown of the high priesthood on His resurrection-day ascension.  In Him, we also are “more than conquerors through Him that loved us”.

Remember, when scripture gives prophecies concerning the “EARTH” (ge), this is usually related to the LAND of Israel, and not to the whole habitable world (oikoumenen).  So it is not accurate to look for all of these prophecies to be fulfilled on a global scale, although some of them did have effect on the world at large at that time.

The red horse taking peace from the earth so that they would kill one another describes the growth of the Zealot factions in Israel who preyed upon their own people by theft and murder.  It became open civil war in the AD 66-70 years, as Christ warned would happen, starting even in the days of His earthly ministry.

The plagues of the 3rd (food scarcity) and 4th horses followed in the wake of the warring Zealot factions in those years.  Those plagues of the sword, hunger, and death  pictured by the 4th horse came through the agency of the “BEASTS OF THE EARTH”.  These “Beasts” are the Judean Land Beast of Rev.13:11 and the Judean Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:3 who, (even more than the Romans), worked ruin against their own citizens by their internecine warfare, so that a fourth of their own people in the land of Israel died.

The souls under the altar of the fifth seal begging for vengeance (the Matt. 27:52-63 resurrected saints, I believe) were given white robes (the righteousness of a saint’s resurrected body), and were told to wait (remain alive on the earth) during that “little season” from AD 33-70 until the rest of the martyrs joined them who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED as they were” (under Nero’s persecution of Christians in AD 64-68).

The sixth seal with the high priest / “kings of the earth” and the great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, and every bond man and free men hiding in dens and rocks of the mountains were concealing themselves in the subterranean cavities and tunnels dug under the city of Jerusalem.  Josephus says that the city was honeycombed with these underground passages in those days, in which the Jews tried to take refuge from the Romans at the close of the siege.  Some of these tunnels and underground passages dug in the rock are still there today: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3140665/

The “stars of heaven” (the children of ethnic Israel) “falling unto the earth” (dying) were like a fig tree casting unripe figs (because even the young children of that evil generation were killed in the ensuing chaos of those times.  Christ warned the weeping women on His way to the cross that their own children would soon suffer).

“Islands moving out of their place” are the *COASTLINE* BORDERS of cities and nations within Israel being moved, in scripture’s terms (see Jer. 47:4 KJV margin note). 

“Mountains being moved” pictures the 7 mountains surrounding Jerusalem being shaken in that documented AD 70 earthquake, with rubble filling up the Kidron Valley as far as the wadi Yasul (Azal).  Archaeological evidence is still in place today of this earthquake, similar to the one in Uzziah’s day.  Also, the Romans did some ground leveling for their siege ramps at Jerusalem in AD 70.

The “four corners of the earth” are those 4 quarters of the land of Israel - not the whole globe ( see Is. 11:12, Ez. 7:2-3). 

The angels sealing the 144,000 First-fruits of Israel is God’s protection given to the Matt. 27:52-53 saints raised along with Christ the First-fruits.  All of them were raised from graves around Jerusalem in AD 33, and sealed for protection from the coming disasters in those Great Tribulation years from AD 66-70.  You can’t harm a resurrected saint, either physically or spiritually.

As for the Rev. 8:13 three woes “yet to sound”, that was going to be future time AFTER the 4th angel sounded in those first-century days - NOT FUTURE TO US.  And it would fall on the “inhabiters of the earth” (ge) - those living in the land of Israel - not the whole globe. 

All of Rev. chapter 9 is describing the tormenting conditions that the corrupt Governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops (the “locusts”) perpetrated upon the Jews for a 5-month period starting in April/May of AD 66, to try to goad them into a rebellion.  This is typically the season of year in that part of the world for real locust activity.  In this case, it was human Roman soldiers at the orders of Governor Florus tormenting the Jews until Eleazar, son of the high priest and governor of the Temple, finally launched the rebellion in late AD 66 by halting the daily Temple sacrifice for the empire and emperor.

Anything else?

[Rella]

Yes, Rella, these are all historically fulfilled events. 

Christ was the first white horse rider, given a crown of the high priesthood on His resurrection-day ascension.  In Him, we also are “more than conquerors through Him that loved us”.

Remember, when scripture gives prophecies concerning the “EARTH” (ge), this is usually related to the LAND of Israel, and not to the whole habitable world (oikoumenen).  So it is not accurate to look for all of these prophecies to be fulfilled on a global scale, although some of them did have effect on the world at large at that time.

The red horse taking peace from the earth so that they would kill one another describes the growth of the Zealot factions in Israel who preyed upon their own people by theft and murder.  It became open civil war in the AD 66-70 years, as Christ warned would happen, starting even in the days of His earthly ministry.

The plagues of the 3rd (food scarcity) and 4th horses followed in the wake of the warring Zealot factions in those years.  Those plagues of the sword, hunger, and death  pictured by the 4th horse came through the agency of the “BEASTS OF THE EARTH”.  These “Beasts” are the Judean Land Beast of Rev.13:11 and the Judean Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:3 who, (even more than the Romans), worked ruin against their own citizens by their internecine warfare, so that a fourth of their own people in the land of Israel died.

The souls under the altar of the fifth seal begging for vengeance (the Matt. 27:52-63 resurrected saints, I believe) were given white robes (the righteousness of a saint’s resurrected body), and were told to wait (remain alive on the earth) during that “little season” from AD 33-70 until the rest of the martyrs joined them who were “ABOUT TO BE KILLED as they were” (under Nero’s persecution of Christians in AD 64-68).

The sixth seal with the high priest / “kings of the earth” and the great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, and every bond man and free men hiding in dens and rocks of the mountains were concealing themselves in the subterranean cavities and tunnels dug under the city of Jerusalem.  Josephus says that the city was honeycombed with these underground passages in those days, in which the Jews tried to take refuge from the Romans at the close of the siege.  Some of these tunnels and underground passages dug in the rock are still there today: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3140665/

The “stars of heaven” (the children of ethnic Israel) “falling unto the earth” (dying) were like a fig tree casting unripe figs (because even the young children of that evil generation were killed in the ensuing chaos of those times.  Christ warned the weeping women on His way to the cross that their own children would soon suffer).

“Islands moving out of their place” are the *COASTLINE* BORDERS of cities and nations within Israel being moved, in scripture’s terms (see Jer. 47:4 KJV margin note). 

“Mountains being moved” pictures the 7 mountains surrounding Jerusalem being shaken in that documented AD 70 earthquake, with rubble filling up the Kidron Valley as far as the wadi Yasul (Azal).  Archaeological evidence is still in place today of this earthquake, similar to the one in Uzziah’s day.  Also, the Romans did some ground leveling for their siege ramps at Jerusalem in AD 70.

The “four corners of the earth” are those 4 quarters of the land of Israel - not the whole globe ( see Is. 11:12, Ez. 7:2-3). 

The angels sealing the 144,000 First-fruits of Israel is God’s protection given to the Matt. 27:52-53 saints raised along with Christ the First-fruits.  All of them were raised from graves around Jerusalem in AD 33, and sealed for protection from the coming disasters in those Great Tribulation years from AD 66-70.  You can’t harm a resurrected saint, either physically or spiritually.

As for the Rev. 8:13 three woes “yet to sound”, that was going to be future time AFTER the 4th angel sounded in those first-century days - NOT FUTURE TO US.  And it would fall on the “inhabiters of the earth” (ge) - those living in the land of Israel - not the whole globe. 

All of Rev. chapter 9 is describing the tormenting conditions that the corrupt Governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops (the “locusts”) perpetrated upon the Jews for a 5-month period starting in April/May of AD 66, to try to goad them into a rebellion.  This is typically the season of year in that part of the world for real locust activity.  In this case, it was human Roman soldiers at the orders of Governor Florus tormenting the Jews until Eleazar, son of the high priest and governor of the Temple, finally launched the rebellion in late AD 66 by halting the daily Temple sacrifice for the empire and emperor.

Anything else?

A fanciful imagination.

Have you considered authoring a fictitious work in the vein of Tim LaHaye's Left Behind?

You could title it 70AD... or 70 CE as that would allow for more readers.

Picture it now.

"LEFT BEHIND" ~ " STAR WARS" `~ "START TREK" AND  "70 CE"

[3 Resurrections]

LOL I’m afraid I’m too late for such a presentation - Brian Godawa already beat me to it with his sequel series called  “Chronicles of the Apocalypse”.  Haven’t read them, but he may turn them into a movie series one day.  Should easily beat Nicolas Cage’s performance in that pitifully-scripted piece of nonsense.

You guys should know - there is absolutely no mockery, vilifying, or trolling that can possibly phase me with your scorn for any Preteristic teaching.  I already live with a spouse that tells me I am a heretic with perverted doctrine and despises me for this.  So much so, that they can no longer discuss anything biblical at all with me hardly.  I have paid a price for surrendering completely to God’s leading in this, but I still count myself blessed beyond measure.  I will never return to that view I grew up with that held me captive and traumatized me with so much fear of the future. 

Rella, I sense a good deal of this fear in you, and RB, and robycop3, and I sincerely pity you all for living in dread and expectation of an already-fulfilled “Great Tribulation” that isn’t going to materialize in our future.  Such a waste of spiritual energy that could be spent better elsewhere.

[dpr]

LOL I’m afraid I’m too late for such a presentation - Brian Godawa already beat me to it with his sequel series called  “Chronicles of the Apocalypse”.  Haven’t read them, but he may turn them into a movie series one day.  Should easily beat Nicolas Cage’s performance in that pitifully-scripted piece of nonsense.

You guys should know - there is absolutely no mockery, vilifying, or trolling that can possibly phase me with your scorn for any Preteristic teaching.  I already live with a spouse that tells me I am a heretic with perverted doctrine and despises me for this.  So much so, that they can no longer discuss anything biblical at all with me hardly.  I have paid a price for surrendering completely to God’s leading in this, but I still count myself blessed beyond measure.  I will never return to that view I grew up with that held me captive and traumatized me with so much fear of the future. 

Rella, I sense a good deal of this fear in you, and RB, and robycop3, and I sincerely pity you all for living in dread and expectation of an already-fulfilled “Great Tribulation” that isn’t going to materialize in our future.  Such a waste of spiritual energy that could be spent better elsewhere.

Well, I pray you will come out of that mess before it's too late. I don't know anyone who hasn't been deceived by one thing or another at least once in their lifetime.

You'll never get me to agree that Preterist doctrine is a result of the actual written Word of God either.