Author Topic: Christ Has Returned Already?  (Read 11271 times)

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Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #70 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:51:52 »
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so.  

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP

You keep saying "show me" & when you are shown even one verse or an article to further explain all the reasoning that backs it, you just act like i never gave an explanation. - when i have been slowly but surely explaining Preterism for 1 1/2 yrs. in the "theology" section. I have only seen your posts of recently, with the new sub-forum created for "end-times." I have been sharing my knowledge of Biblical eschatology all along for a good 19 months here.
[More Christian forums are opening up & stating "preterist views welcome" So, that is a trend in a positive direction now too. All views should be made available as we search for the Truth in & of God's word.]
I will continue to do so, with God's help & those with an open mind will actually read it. But when one has not read of historical fulfillment or hears something not "orthodoxy" some will rebel for a time, until the wiser, more serious student personally realizes they are fooling themselves about the timing Jesus gave & God gave in Scripture.

What did Malachi say about the Jews when Jesus came? His prophecy is not about "Christians" in name or about the end of the church age. This age never ends! His kingdom never ends!
Mal4:5-6,

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
      Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
       6 And he will turn
      The hearts of the fathers to the children,
      And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
      Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #71 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:53:09 »
Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!

Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #72 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:08:53 »
HI Amo

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR


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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #73 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:13:00 »
Quote
Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR

I guess if I were determined to be a Preterist also, I would have no choice but to believe the same.

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #73 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:13:00 »
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Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:20:00 »
Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!

Well, i don't. I usually have to admit that about my marriage though. Not proud of being a former "real good sinner"  But then, Jesus does forgive & forget our previous ignorance. Praise God!

3 times a charm! Married 24 yrs.  It's a charm alright, lol!  Well of course it is, compared to the former!

I wait on the Lord daily, or monthly or even hourly sometimes. He answers prayers & manifests Himself to us.

Last time i called on Him - He did swat the hurricane on the radar from hitting my city directly & broke it up into pieces- I watched the Lord's power happen right on the radar map!
Praise God!

Faith happens!


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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:20:00 »



Offline msterra36

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #75 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 17:17:42 »
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses.  Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.


Reading through this I was wondering if someone was going to mention about the length of time (stated in the Bible) I totally agree with your post. Our Time is not God's time.

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #76 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 17:38:53 »
by msterra,
Quote
Our Time is not God's time.

So when the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible & gave clear time statements to man (soon, now, at hand, you-the intended audience will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of man be come, etc.)  It was for nothing? How about the Word not returning to God void! And just how long would the apostles live ? "You" the intended audience- not us!

God can relate time to man.  Rev.1:1,  1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

God's time is not our time? Again, that would void God's word if He didn't relate time to man.





Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #77 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 17:26:39 »
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse.               ::shrug::
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

 


Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).



Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site!  We agree so much. I wish you and the other full preterists would return and help support preterism so we don't look dumb to the rest of the world!
Can you imagine the flesh-led people believing Jesus would return in the flesh!  Even saying He will return in the flesh a 3rd time!

I miss you and the others who know the Scriptures say only a second return and never in the flesh.

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #78 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 19:12:50 »
Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site!  We agree so much. I wish you and the other full preterists would return and help support preterism so we don't look dumb to the rest of the world!
Can you imagine the flesh-led people believing Jesus would return in the flesh!  Even saying He will return in the flesh a 3rd time!

I miss you and the others who know the Scriptures say only a second return and never in the flesh.

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.
Quote
God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.

Most, if not all on here would agree that God is in us.

But God within us certainly does not make a spiritual kingdom.

If that is so, then it certainly is not as we have believed either by education or preaching.

For what purpose would God have "completed" his plans in 70 AD and then force
continuing generations to endure a life of walking on this miserable earth unless you are of a mindset that mankind has to do this "until he gets it right"?

We are forced to endure pedophilia, child abuses, and the now killing of babys
after they are born. We are forced to hear of human trafficking,and drug abuses,and excessive alcohol usage.  Acceptance of sexting and orgies, and any abnormal use of the body. And within half a century all gays, male and female are out of the closet, and psychologists say bi-sexuals are more evenly balanced mentally. And the common place is males becoming female and females becoming males, and mothers taping down their baby sons penis so they wont show... and the cloning of animals, and the inevitable cloning of humans... and the experimentations of trying to make a super perfect human race. Yes,this is a goal beyond Adolph Hitler..... and much,much, much more. But I'll stop here,

And we are evermore forced to endure the greater part of the world condemning
those of us who have or faith squarely with and in Jesus. And who has believe
what is written within the four corners of the holy book called the Bible.

If all prophesy was completed by 70 AD.

Why these centuries of sewer living we are forced to live and to what end?

Be born, live through life , die and turn to the dust from where we came cause the spiritual kingdom is now...not in the future?





Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #79 on: Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 19:50:07 »
Quote
Most, if not all on here would agree that God is in us.
But God within us certainly does not make a spiritual kingdom.
Why not?
Quote
If that is so, then it certainly is not as we have believed either by education or preaching.
Makes me glad I missed it.
Quote
For what purpose would God have "completed" his plans in 70 AD and then force
continuing generations to endure a life of walking on this miserable earth unless you are of a mindset that mankind has to do this "until he gets it right"?
What plans? Prophecy plans?  I thought He had plans for us and it was for good !!
Quote
We are forced to endure pedophilia, child abuses, and the now killing of babys
after they are born. We are forced to hear of human trafficking,and drug abuses,and excessive alcohol usage.  Acceptance of sexting and orgies, and any abnormal use of the body. And within half a century all gays, male and female are out of the closet, and psychologists say bi-sexuals are more evenly balanced mentally. And the common place is males becoming female and females becoming males, and mothers taping down their baby sons penis so they wont show... and the cloning of animals, and the inevitable cloning of humans... and the experimentations of trying to make a super perfect human race. Yes,this is a goal beyond Adolph Hitler..... and much,much, much more. But I'll stop here,
I don't feel "forced." I think you'
re picturing some utopia that God never promised us on earth. He promised grace for each day. There will always be evil people and things in this world. We do try to change it. It takes time, but I am optimistic. It's upsetting only when we can't do anything about it and feel helpless. But again, life is what we make it.
Quote
And we are evermore forced to endure the greater part of the world condemning
those of us who have or faith squarely with and in Jesus. And who has believe
what is written within the four corners of the holy book called the Bible.

If all prophesy was completed by 70 AD.

Why these centuries of sewer living we are forced to live and to what end?

Be born, live through life , die and turn to the dust from where we came cause the spiritual kingdom is now...not in the future?
Let them try to poke fun of Christians. We have God's favor so we overcome them in every way!
More than conquerors!!
Thank you Jesus  ::kissing::

Offline Rob

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #80 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 12:53:02 »
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #81 on: Sun May 10, 2020 - 18:07:24 »
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.
Trust me, it's option #3 for end times here with the choir.

Christ's kingdom did not come with observation.


Luke 17:20-25 (KJ21)

20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show.

21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.


So you see, we don't have to even depend on the testimony of Josephus and Tacitus to have physically seen Jesus and armies of angels in the clouds over Jerusalem. It's good to know that there was some answer to "what will be the sign of Your coming" asked by the disciples.

Otherwise, we must trust Jesus' return was acknowledged by the warning signs for the apostles and disciples to look for.  Especially the apostles who were to evangelize since Jesus left them in AD30 or 33. For almost 40 years God put up with backsliding Israel

Luke 21: The Destruction of Jerusalem
20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.…


Acts 13: 17The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers. He made them into a great people during their stay in Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out of that land. 18He endured their conduct for about forty years in the wilderness.
~emph. mine.

30AD-70AD- Israel either merged with Christianity or were left for the vultures of the air to eat there flesh. Those taken were taken as slaves - "But no one wanted to buy them."

Some of the CURSES in Deut.28:

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.


Recognize the Romans here?

Also, during the Roman siege there was incredible famine as not to let the people leave the gates of the city. A woman is reported by Josephus that she ate her offspring in the famine!
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2020 - 18:13:47 by lea »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #82 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:12:56 »
  Jesus' PHYSICAL return will be in great power & glory, as He said. And it'll be immediately after the great trib, as He said.

  Learn to believe what JESUS actually said, insteada what some pret crackpot said !

Offline Rob

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #83 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:48:55 »
Trust me, it's option #3 for end times here with the choir.

Christ's kingdom did not come with observation.


Luke 17:20-25 (KJ21)

20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show.

21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.


So you see, we don't have to even depend on the testimony of Josephus and Tacitus to have physically seen Jesus and armies of angels in the clouds over Jerusalem. It's good to know that there was some answer to "what will be the sign of Your coming" asked by the disciples.

Otherwise, we must trust Jesus' return was acknowledged by the warning signs for the apostles and disciples to look for.  Especially the apostles who were to evangelize since Jesus left them in AD30 or 33. For almost 40 years God put up with backsliding Israel

Luke 21: The Destruction of Jerusalem
20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.…


Acts 13: 17The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers. He made them into a great people during their stay in Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out of that land. 18He endured their conduct for about forty years in the wilderness.
~emph. mine.

30AD-70AD- Israel either merged with Christianity or were left for the vultures of the air to eat there flesh. Those taken were taken as slaves - "But no one wanted to buy them."

Some of the CURSES in Deut.28:

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.


Recognize the Romans here?

Also, during the Roman siege there was incredible famine as not to let the people leave the gates of the city. A woman is reported by Josephus that she ate her offspring in the famine!
You're preaching to the choir, dispensationalism is heresy from the pit of hell.... I know because I used to be one of them.

Offline dpr

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #84 on: Fri May 22, 2020 - 12:04:01 »
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.

Might be, but I tend to believe the confusion is because the children of darkness are involved, and they have an agenda to deceive the Church today. It's pretty easy to know that certain ones among the Orthodox Jews work against us, as the head of the ADL a few years ago was worried that they had to do something, because Christians were getting too strong in the movie making industry. Likewise, I believe some of the Christian seminaries exist to push confusion against God's Word.


Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #85 on: Sat May 23, 2020 - 14:35:58 »
You're preaching to the choir, dispensationalism is heresy from the pit of hell.... I know because I used to be one of them.

 "Futurist" does NOT always mean "Dispy". For instance, I believe in only 3 dispensations - Old Covenant, New Covenant (now) & the new world after Jesus returns.

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #86 on: Sun May 24, 2020 - 15:37:06 »
"Futurist" does NOT always mean "Dispy". For instance, I believe in only 3 dispensations - Old Covenant, New Covenant (now) & the new world after Jesus returns.

So you believe there's something beyond what the Bible states.  There's nothing beyond Mt. Zion-except in heaven.

"A new world order" is man-made.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #87 on: Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:25:56 »
So you believe there's something beyond what the Bible states.  There's nothing beyond Mt. Zion-except in heaven.

"A new world order" is man-made.

  SCRIPTURE says otherwise. If you choose not to believe it, I can't help you. I can only post a warning to others to not fall for the same silliness YOU have.

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #88 on: Wed May 27, 2020 - 18:42:29 »
  SCRIPTURE says otherwise. If you choose not to believe it, I can't help you. I can only post a warning to others to not fall for the same silliness YOU have.
Prove it. Compare Scripture to Scripture regarding the last days of the old covenant age and God's
plan for Israel in their last days.

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #89 on: Fri May 29, 2020 - 17:20:55 »
Prove it. Compare Scripture to Scripture regarding the last days of the old covenant age and God's
plan for Israel in their last days.

 Let's start with Jeremiah 30:3-3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.” This was during the days of the babylonian captivity of Judah; Israel was already in exile in various lands.

Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west: I will say to the north, “Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 43:5-6)

  During their captivity to Babylon, Persia, & Greece, the Jews weren't too scattered. They weren't REALLY scattered til 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them out of their land, which, of course, occurred after the New Covenant was establidhed. So, this event is just now beginning.

  And here are a few more verses to confirm that fact :

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezek. 36:24)

“I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them”. “I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them.” (Amos 8:14-15)

“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel, I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in a pasture a noisy multitude of men.” (Micah 2:12)


  This isn't EVERY verse affirming God's promise to Israel & Judah, but it should be enough to convince any skeptic. remember, Scripture is largely the early history of Israel & Judah, while being a Jesus-centric work, with all Scripture pointing to Him.  But certainly, Gos is NOT through with the Israeli people !
« Last Edit: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:24:11 by robycop3 »

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #90 on: Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:03:33 »
God gathered the faithful of Israel to the heavenly realms. Mt. Zion.

The heroes of faith are remembered in  the New Covenant of Christ.
Rev.21
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the [j]names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 


The faithful of the 12 tribes were remembered by God. He had changed Israel's name to the "new Jerusalem."

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #91 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:25:21 »
  This is all yet future. No evidence it's already happened. The "old" Jerusalem is still here.
« Last Edit: Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:29:08 by robycop3 »

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #92 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:03:19 »
  This is all yet future. No evidence it's already happened. The "old" Jerusalem is still here.

Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!


Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #93 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:33:47 »
Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

OF COURSE I do. Can you show it to us ? OF COURSE NOT ! It's still in heaven.

Quote
Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!

  It'll come when God's time for it arrives.

Offline Rella

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #94 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:13:18 »
Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site! 

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.

WOW lea, You had to revive an 11 year old thread to bolster your points , or is it to
hopefully revive someone to your side?

One thing I do find of interest in this post is the historical mentions.....

Quote
Quote from: rezar on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:41:29
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse.               ::shrug::
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
 
Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

We have been asking and asking and this is oh so close, but not on the mark.

Have you noticed ...These do describe the visions/ dreams of these men as to the actual destruction of the temple.

But they do not talk of anything as is laidout in the book of Revelation that would be such that you could confirm Jesus wasanywhere in the mx,eiter in person or spiritually.

Josephus' account is the most believable because according to this he wrote it only 5 years after the destruction, and was obviously an eye witness.

Tacitus came about in c 115 AD. It is not clear, by this portion if he had been
an eye witness, or if he was just putting to parchment things being said as they passed down by generation. You can look it up and clarify. I am not going to as I am not making your case for you.

But while you are at it....Clarify this please...

In the sky appeared a vision ( kind of like Johns, though written long after) of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.

Such confusion. Seems as if this was Satan's superhuman voice declaring the demons were leaving it and out they came. This is not God'ssuper human voice as no one with in the temple would have been gods ( plural) as He would be the only one... ( Yet note this - The original Greek word daimon does not carry negative connotations.[1] The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daimōn denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen ...so could be that it was and likely is demonsleaving.)

SO WE ARE SAFE TO SAY THIS IS NOT A HISTORICAL ACCOUNT.... SCRATCH IT!

Now enters
Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8)

I still want a dog named Eusebius......

Generations past 70AD and we have a hand me down account of someones vision.
His?  John's? But no linking of this to 70AD andno linking of Jesus oranything else
much from Rev that said the endisover and donewith.

Sorry, lea, Still no proof..........

Offline Rella

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #95 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:21:19 »


"A new world order" is man-made.

And you are smack dab in the middle of the formation of it. The new world order is
coming full speed ahead and you cannot stop it. It iIS man madeby the directives of Satan and the man that sits on 7 hills.

This is not the new world after Jesus returns as robycop is referencing.

Offline Rella

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #96 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:24:11 »
Let's start with Jeremiah 30:3-3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.” This was during the days of the babylonian captivity of Judah; Israel was already in exile in various lands.

Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west: I will say to the north, “Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 43:5-6)

  During their captivity to Babylon, Persia, & Greece, the Jews weren't too scattered. They weren't REALLY scattered til 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them out of their land, which, of course, occurred after the New Covenant was establidhed. So, this event is just now beginning.

  And here are a few more verses to confirm that fact :

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezek. 36:24)

“I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them”. “I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them.” (Amos 8:14-15)

“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel, I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in a pasture a noisy multitude of men.” (Micah 2:12)


  This isn't EVERY verse affirming God's promise to Israel & Judah, but it should be enough to convince any skeptic. remember, Scripture is largely the early history of Israel & Judah, while being a Jesus-centric work, with all Scripture pointing to Him.  But certainly, Gos is NOT through with the Israeli people !

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

Offline Rella

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #97 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:30:35 »
Might be, but I tend to believe the confusion is because the children of darkness are involved, and they have an agenda to deceive the Church today. It's pretty easy to know that certain ones among the Orthodox Jews work against us, as the head of the ADL a few years ago was worried that they had to do something, because Christians were getting too strong in the movie making industry. Likewise, I believe some of the Christian seminaries exist to push confusion against God's Word.

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: for you also.

I might add that not only do the seminaries exist to push confusion against Gods word but also in these endtimes we do have Satan in the Sanctuaries, which is provable,but a subject for another thread.

And man is too weak to see or understand....

Offline Rella

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #98 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:37:27 »
[quote author=lea link=topic=37669.msg1055165069#msg1055165069

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!
[/quote]

Leaving the Jews out of it... You are describing those who are saved vs all others.

And it has not happened... it is yet to come.

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #99 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:52:08 »
Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!

Yep, I still believe in the old God. You obviously are following the new one. The one whpo has the sister of my friend preaching the new God wants everyone happy and
therefore allowed her to divorce her husband to go find another.

Everything you say seems to confirm what she says....   ::doh::

As to the New Jerusalem. Prove it.

Give historical prooof that this was recorded somewhere in the past 2000 years.

REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Surly you  have to admit if someone saw anew city descending from the sky
they would have been talking about it for weeks and someone would have written it down.

Why didn't they.....?

AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.........

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Why do we still have seas and oceans?  My last cruise definitely on a large expanse of water.

Do you think maybe we really do have alternate universes and you live in one, I live in another and by the miracle of satellites and electronic means we are able to connect?  Yes... that must be it.


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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #100 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:55:43 »
OF COURSE I do. Can you show it to us ? OF COURSE NOT ! It's still in heaven.

  It'll come when God's time for it arrives.

Repeating myself... if it had descended from heaven...it WOULD have been recorded.

It is all in God's perfect timing.

OK boys and girls...I will be off for a couple of hours... later  ::tippinghat::

« Last Edit: Sun May 31, 2020 - 18:37:38 by Rella »

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #101 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 15:12:48 »
[quote author=lea link=topic=37669.msg1055165069#msg1055165069

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!


Leaving the Jews out of it... You are describing those who are saved vs all others.

And it has not happened... it is yet to come.

See, you're trying to predict the future again because you misinterpret the parable.

His servants (which are Jews in the parable)went out to invite the other Jews which were God's people at the time, recused themselves from coming to the wedding of the Lamb,  were the ones who were sentenced to God's wrath. The faithful ones are all the believers (His original servant Jews) and non- Jews= Christians)

Some say we are invited to the wedding feast as soon as we confess Christ as Lord and Savior.
This may be a "type" from the parable that is ongoing today.

But the original parable in Matt.22 notes this:

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.


In vs 7, can you see the apostate Israel's great and terrible day of the Lord/ the great tribulation?

It's not hard to decipher.  Tell me if you understand this to be compared with God's wrath on the apostate Jews in Revelation.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #102 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 16:49:55 »
  Well, ACTUALLY,  israelis & gentiles alike are invited. The "wedding feast" will occur when it's time for Rev. 22:11 to be fulfilled.

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #103 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 18:42:05 »
See, you're trying to predict the future again because you misinterpret the parable.

His servants (which are Jews in the parable)went out to invite the other Jews which were God's people at the time, recused themselves from coming to the wedding of the Lamb,  were the ones who were sentenced to God's wrath. The faithful ones are all the believers (His original servant Jews) and non- Jews= Christians)

Some say we are invited to the wedding feast as soon as we confess Christ as Lord and Savior.
This may be a "type" from the parable that is ongoing today.

But the original parable in Matt.22 notes this:

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.


In vs 7, can you see the apostate Israel's great and terrible day of the Lord/ the great tribulation?

It's not hard to decipher.  Tell me if you understand this to be compared with God's wrath on the apostate Jews in Revelation.

What I understand is God's wrath will not be localized to only apostate Jews, but to those apostates of every form and religion and especially those who attempt to deceive the very elect by twisting and turning His holy words away from what
the original intention was.

Offline lea

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #104 on: Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:24:24 »
What I understand is God's wrath will not be localized to only apostate Jews, but to those apostates of every form and religion and especially those who attempt to deceive the very elect by twisting and turning His holy words away from what
the original intention was.
Sounds like a threat Rella!

You didn't even consider the interpretation of the parable that I offered, but let Satan put it in your heart hateful words towards Someone's child!

 

     
anything