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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Topic started by: dp on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:13:45

Title: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dp on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:13:45
If we listen to God in His written Word it's very easy to know that Christ's second coming has not happened yet today.

Acts 1:9-12
9   And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10   And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11   Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
12   Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

Christ's disciples were on the Mount of Olives there speaking to our Lord Jesus when He ascended up in a cloud to Heaven. Then two angels appeared and told them, "this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

That's written so plain a little child can understand it. Christ's second coming is to occur in like manner how He ascended in cloud up into Heaven. That was real what Christ's disciples saw. They were not having some far out LSD hallucination. Nor was it a mystical experience. It was actual, it really happened just like the Scripture says.

Is it written elsewhere in God's Word about Christ's coming in like manner as that? YES, in several Scriptures, like Matthew 24:30-31, Matthew 25:31, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, 1 Thess.4:16-17, 2 Thess.1:7, and especially in the Old Testament Book of Zechariah 14...

Zech 14:1-11
1   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

In the very end to signal Christ's second coming, "all nations" will come up against Jerusalem to battle. But we know per Revelation 9-11 that final battle will be with spiritual deception especially, from a false one that will be set up there to create the fake "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5.

Zech.14:3   Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

This is the event of Armageddon mentioned in Rev.16 when Christ will come with His mighty angels to partake in that battle. That's the 7th vial timing, which is poured out into the air, signifying the end of this world today.

Zech.14:4      And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Here we are told Christ's feet will literally touch down upon the Mount of Olives, the very area on earth where His disciples saw Him ascend into Heaven by a cloud per Acts 1.

Along with that event, in Jerusalem, a great valley will be formed there when Christ's feet touch down on earth. The Mount of Olives will literally split in two, half of it moved to the north, and half of it moved to the south. Anyone saying that happened in 70 A.D. is clearly out of their mind.

Zech.14:5    And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

That great valley formed there in Jerusalem by Christ's feet touching down on earth will be for the gathering of His saints to Him, there. Shouldn't those who say Christ's second coming is history be thinking why they haven't been gathered there to Christ yet? If they considered these REQUIRED prophetic conditions, they might change their thinking on the time of Christ's second coming per the Scripture.

For those who listen to God's Word this should be easy to know Christ's second coming is still yet to occur. Some stop here in Zech.14, but let's keep going so we can note other REQUIRED conditions for Christ's coming, and understand it's still yet future.

Zech.14:6    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7   But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Do you remember when our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24 that no man knows the day or hour of His coming? What's this "that at evening time it shall be light"? It means the sky is going to be lit up even at night time with Christ's glory coming in the clouds to Jerusalem.

Zech.14:8   And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Here's another condition that is REQUIRED with that time of Christ's coming. Do you remember the pure River of the Waters of Life mentioned in Rev.22 and Ezekiel 47? That's about the Waters that issue out from Christ's sanctuary on earth, and go eastward into the Dead Sea and heal it. And wherever that River flows on earth the waters will be healed (per Ezek.47). Do you see that in place today in Jerusalem? Obviously not, because it has not happened yet today.

Zech.14:9    And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Is this saying there will be many religions on earth with belief on many gods? It's just the opposite, only ONE LORD over all the earth, over all peoples. That's another marker, because today there are many different religions in the world with their many gods. When Christ comes, all the false idols and many gods worship will end.

Zech.14:10   All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11   And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)

We are told of a "great earthquake" there in Jerusalem that's to occur with Christ's coming (Rev.6:12 on the 6th seal, Rev.11:13 at the same 'hour' when God's two witnesses in Jerusalem are suddenly resurrected, and in Rev.16:18 when the 7th vial is poured out into the air, signaling Christ's coming.

So there's no way anyone will miss the time of Christ's second coming. Philosophical mystical mumbo jumbo by the Preterists can't even compare with what God's Word says about it.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Tantor on Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:56:37
It did happen.. the bible says when it was to happen and that time passed a long time ago.

To say that it hasn't happened is to believe only the part of the scriptures that you want.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dp on Sun Aug 30, 2009 - 08:51:40
It did happen.. the bible says when it was to happen and that time passed a long time ago.

To say that it hasn't happened is to believe only the part of the scriptures that you want.



Your words go directly opposite of the Scripture evidence I posted above. Nor have you given any Scripture evidence to back up what you're saying. So you're just passing hot air, and nothing more.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Tantor on Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 07:54:28
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: crowcamp on Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 16:24:44
Not taking the time to look up BCV, but Jesus also said "I am with you always."
Have to agree with Tantor that He returned long ago. Have long thought that if we lived knowing He is with us it would change everything. That He has not returned seems to be a convenient excuse for many things.

And personally, I know He is here.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 19:13:42
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 22:23:24
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?


I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.

                           (http://forums.somd.com/images/customavatars/avatar3226_17.gif)


Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: HRoberson on Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 22:38:08
Josephus says that there was seen in the clouds an Army during the destruction of Jerusalem.

While Josephus is not always apolitical, nor always accurate, there isn't any reason to believe that he made this up. And there doesn't seem to be a political reason to report this concept.

Didn't somebody say something about coming in the clouds?
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 14:19:59
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.

Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."
Coming again is probably the wrong terminology.  Essentially, I believe that Jesus will at some point deliver up the kingdom that He has subdued to His Father, at which time there will be judgment and the end of the world.

1Cr 15:24   Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
1Cr 15:25   For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 
1Cr 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 
1Cr 15:27   For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 
1Cr 15:28   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things 

I don't mind being compared to the "non-serious" pan-millenialists in the least.  Far better to admit being unsure of some things, than to be obsessed with explaining every detail.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 17:01:25
by Jarrod,
Quote
Coming again is probably the wrong terminology.  Essentially, I believe that Jesus will at some point deliver up the kingdom that He has subdued to His Father, at which time there will be judgment and the end of the world.

Yes, i can see how non-serious a student of eschatology you are there. But all are entitled to their opinion. We are social animals.(most of us anyway)
But i do disagree with all 3 points there,
1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
2. about a corporate throne "judgment" still to come. God judges now-today- no one goes to "hell" either.
3. The "end of the world."  The Bible speaks of an end to the Jewish "world" or age-but not the material world. (foundations of the earth were not destroyed with the Flood- just the wicked therein. Same for the great trib on the Jews)
Quote
I don't mind being compared to the "non-serious" pan-millenialists in the least.  Far better to admit being unsure of some things, than to be obsessed with explaining every detail.

Well, at least your end justifies your means. Some don't admit their unsure but are obsessed (http://forums.somd.com/images/smilies/jameo.gif)with expounding their "literal"suppositions & their fantasies in their every detail!

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 17:52:51
1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 18:22:57
Quote
Josephus says that there was seen in the clouds an Army during the destruction of Jerusalem.

While Josephus is not always apolitical, nor always accurate, there isn't any reason to believe that he made this up. And there doesn't seem to be a political reason to report this concept.

Didn't somebody say something about coming in the clouds?

Yes they did, but nothing about seeing armies in the clouds. 

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
   
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Josephus saw the clouds of earth in the shape of soldiers.  The above verses say Jesus will come in the clouds of heaven.  They say every eye will see Him.  They say all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.  They say the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light, the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.  They say also that the coming of Christ will be as it was in Noah's day, that is, all of humanity will be destroyed at that time, save the elect that will be gathered from the four winds.  Obviously none of this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed.

One must use some kind of Preterist reverse biblical symbolism to come up with the destruction of Jerusalem being the second coming of Christ.  Symbolism that makes what the scriptures say, actually mean much less than what they are saying.  Not to mention the problem with the above scriptures telling us not to believe anyone that tells you Christ has come in this or that specific place, such as Jerusalem. 


Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:41:29
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse. (http://forums.somd.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif)              ::shrug::
 Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
 


Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: janine on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:55:20
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 21:31:59
Quote
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life? What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?



Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God
, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?





Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dp on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 05:37:31
That's OK Amo, we don't don't have to give any answer to those who rape God's Word in denying the many Scriptures of Christ's literal physical second coming of the future. Those have left God's Word, so they'll deny all the major events written that are to occur at His coming also. Christ will answer those in due time.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Tantor on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 06:35:58
Rape God's word?.... you should look in the mirror!.  It's you guys that don't take all of God's word into consideration and would rather have some get out of life free card... its a convenient excuse so you dont have to work for the kingdom of the Lord that hard.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 12:49:35
I'm not going to get an answer to this, am I?

1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 19:08:23
I'm not going to get an answer to this, am I?

1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.
Yes, but one needs a preterist background most likely to understand it anyway.

 i do not see how you as a futurist- deny Scripture! Jesus said He was coming back in His generation. The whole NT is replete with end of the age acknowledgments by the apostles & last days statements by Jesus & the apostles.

The orthodoxy you hold onto calls Jesus the apostles liars. The book of Revelation says in the 1st chapter that the prophecy written in it was near. The last chapter of the N.T. (Rev.22:6) ends with:
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:09:43
That wasn't an explanation.

And I do think he came in the 1st century, so most of what you wrote there didn't apply to me.  I just happen to believe there's still something more to be done.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 08:38:03
by Jarrod,
Quote
I just happen to believe there's still something more to be done.

There's ALWAYS something TO BE DONE. We aren't dead yet!

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

      Our Father in heaven,
      Hallowed be Your name.
       10 Your kingdom come.
      Your will be done
      On earth as it is in heaven.
       11 Give us this day our daily bread.
       12 And forgive us our debts,
      As we forgive our debtors.
       13 And do not lead us into temptation,
      But deliver us from evil.
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 13:41:06
I meant on God's part.

Consider:
1Cr 15:19   If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 13:46:06
So, let me get this straight...unless I have a preterist background, then your "proof" from Psalm 2 won't make any sense to me?  That doesn't sound like much of a proof there.

Come one, quit dodging and explain it already.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: fish153 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 14:33:26
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24: 14)

It is very obvious when Jesus said the above he was not saying that the Gospel would be preached throughout the whole world and to all nations within the first century.  Those who state Jesus said he would return within the same generation are completey mistaken and interpret scripture incorrectly.

I have seen people take the verse where Christ says "There are some standing here who will not taste of death until they see Christ coming in his glory" and say he is inferring he will return within the same generation.  Yet, just a few verses later he is transfigured in front of Peter James and John and they see him in all his glory. We clearly see he is not referring to returning in that same generation, but was referring to those who would see him transfigured before them.
Peter later says in 2 Peter:

"We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming  of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty.   For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, "This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain". (2 Peter 1:16-18)

Peter clearly states he has ALREADY SEEN Christ coming in power and glory on the Holy Mount when he witnessed the transfiguration. Yet he is not saying that Christ had returned already, or was due back soon.  Paul told the Thessalonians not to be misled by those who said that Jesus had returned already---and then goes on to describe the great apostasy and appearance of Anti-Christ that must happen before Christ returns.

But some seek to twist the scriptures to infer Christ has already returned.  It is just not the case---Jesus will return the same way he left----he ascended physically in front of his disciples, and he will descend in front of the world in the near future.  Hallelujah!!    ::amen!::
 
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: crowcamp on Fri Sep 04, 2009 - 19:25:00
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?
Okay, here's my take. I believe Christ is here, and if that be via a "return" or not doesn't matter. He stated He is "with us always". If you truly believe that it will "affect" every moment of your daily life. What it "means" for your "daily walk" is a complete understanding of value and purpose and a total absence of fear.

And then, you can begin to make things better- for everyone.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dp on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 08:13:15
And what about those Christians in lands like Sudan and Indonesia, which contain mostly Muslims that are beheading Christians today just for being Christian? Do you think Christ is not going to take revenge upon those when He comes to judge them?

II Th 1:7-10
7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8   In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10   When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

Christ's first coming was meek as a Lamb to be a sacrifice for the sins of those who believe on The Father through His Blood. But His second coming is to be one of rule over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Revelation). He's not coming the second time meek as a Lamb.

Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 08:22:08
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 19:24:56
Will Preterists please explain the global nature of the following prophecies, and how they could possibly all apply to the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Elaine on Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 21:45:26
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?

You hold back too much, Janine.   rofl
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: kensington on Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 02:55:19
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?

Wow Janine... You have changed. 
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: kensington on Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 02:59:23
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 09:33:14
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   

What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!

Are you challenging my pov, kensington?

Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

Mt.24:31-34,
 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth?  Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?

Don't feel sad about it. Think please!

In His service,
rezar
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: HRoberson on Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 17:21:10
Will Preterists please explain the global nature of the following prophecies, and how they could possibly all apply to the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.




Just an observation.....apocalytic language is usually cosmic or global in nature. When God speaks of judgement in the OT, the imagery is massive or global. But it only applies to a backwater of the globe.

Revelation is in the same genre; we should expect it to be parallel.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Kevin-2012 on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 20:51:16
And you find fault in me when this nonsense floats around!!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: kensington on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 02:28:40
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   

What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!

Are you challenging my pov, kensington?

Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

Mt.24:31-34,
 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth?  Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?

Don't feel sad about it. Think please!

In His service,
rezar


I don't know what all that was about....  and I don't even care.  Admin...  What were you thinking??  ROTFLOL!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Scoobydoo on Thu Oct 08, 2009 - 18:23:32
Greetings in Christ from now sunny Texas,

There is a movement in our land identified as the 70ad theory which wants to have Christ coming back in 70 AD. Over the years that comes to the forefront and then sort of disappears for a while.
A lot folks believe that even though that is not taught in scripture.

Since Christ is "right now" and right now begins at "pentecost" reigning and ruling..so are the Christians who are His by faith and obedience to His gospel. ::preachit::

Being in Christ means that we also reign and rule with Christ...but here is the problem. The Jews of the days of Jesus rejected Him as their Messiah because He did not conform to their man made scribal law view of their Messiah.  They then and folks still do today want and earthly physical kingdom and that is not what is taught. We are the new priesthood--we are the new covenant people of God and with Christ we reign and we rule-- -- but not over other people.

Now, if Jesus did not conform to the lost people of God's view of the Messiah what makes anyone believe that He will do so today?


Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Thu Oct 08, 2009 - 23:17:17
Quote
Just an observation.....apocalyt ic language is usually cosmic or global in nature. When God speaks of judgement in the OT, the imagery is massive or global. But it only applies to a backwater of the globe.

Revelation is in the same genre; we should expect it to be parallel.

That is exactly what I would believe, if I did not want to accept a final global judgement and end to this present world.  However, the bible clearly teaches the same.  It is more likely that the old testament prophecies that you are referring to, do actually point to the final global judgement, and the end of this world.  The backwater stuff that you are talking about from the old testament, are smaller types of the global and universal fulfillment of the new covenant era, which God gave the old covenant prophets glimpses of.

The old covenant centered around literal Israel, and the literal nations around her, and the struggles between the same.  The new covenant centers around spiritual Israel, and all the nations of the earth in relation to the same.  The blessings that were once upon literal Israel are now opened up to all of every nation, language, and people who accept Christ as their Savior and King, spiritual Israel.  Their commission is to bring the gospel to all the world, and then the end shall come.  Their battle is no longer literal against literal nations, but against the spiritual deceptions and principalities of this world.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These are the things the new covenant prophecies deal with, of which, much of the old covenant prophecies were merely types and shadows.  Though not all.  Yet still, some of the local and literal prophecies of the old testament, were also types and shadows of the larger global and universal prophecies of the new covenant era.



 

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Corbley on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 02:03:49
Those who believe that Christ returned in 70ad.....Please explain how the following prophecies had taken place..
The Euphraties river drying up and and Army of 200 million march along.
(Today the Euphraties has a Dam and China has a military (reserve) totalling more than 125million....combined with other nations from Asia there could easily be an Army of 200 million)   There was not even 200 million people in Asia in 70 ad

Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 08:40:46
by Corbley,
Quote
Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now

Corbley, these statements are a concern. You know, i hope & pray God will help you to close your mind on certain things. An "end of the world" mindset can be dangerous.

I answered your question about the # 200 million being a hyperbole for effect.  And the Euphrates "dried up" just meaning figuratively that the armies or those tributaries of Rome (who hadn't received a kingdom yet) would find easy passage anyway, despite the rivers- to get to Israel, during the war.

And on the other thread, you keep calling rezar a "he" when i & others have pointed out that simple error- yet you continue to post as if you aren't in touch.

I pray you will lean toward reality & preterism- where non-fiction is the answer- in & to & from the prophecies.  Now & later!



Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Corbley on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 14:58:24
by Corbley,
Quote
Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now

Corbley, these statements are a concern. You know, i hope & pray God will help you to close your mind on certain things. An "end of the world" mindset can be dangerous.

I answered your question about the # 200 million being a hyperbole for effect.  And the Euphrates "dried up" just meaning figuratively that the armies or those tributaries of Rome (who hadn't received a kingdom yet) would find easy passage anyway, despite the rivers- to get to Israel, during the war.

And on the other thread, you keep calling rezar a "he" when i & others have pointed out that simple error- yet you continue to post as if you aren't in touch.

I pray you will lean toward reality & preterism- where non-fiction is the answer- in & to & from the prophecies.  Now & later!




You have explained nothing except what you believe to be true...I do not share that belief
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:44:13
Preterist have a cinch explanation for everything. If something is in scriptue they can"t explain, they "spiritualize" it and say it means such and such other than what it clearly says. Handy, huh?
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:47:03
Somehow to a preterist, the prophecies of Christ's first coming are literal, but the one's about his second coming are symbolic of something else.

**edited for spelling**
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: k-pappy on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 20:40:01
Yea, I noticed the same thing, Jaime!

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Firewing on Mon Oct 26, 2009 - 22:48:38
I don't think Christ has returned to take his followers to heaven yet.

The Bible speaks that he will come "like a thief in the night"..We won't really know when.

But think of this: If he did come to take his followers, wouldn't we know *after* he came?.  It all depends on how he takes his followers.  Does he take the soul? or the soul and body?.

If he took the soul and body, we would have heard news stories from across the planet about large amounts of missing people.  We would also hear about massive amounts accidents happening like on highways or streets (If the follower was driving and he was taken in the middle of that).

If Jesus just took the soul, and left the body on earth, we'd be hearing numerous news reports about people collapsing during their work day, or driving and causing an accident. 

Unless Jesus does this in a very clean fashion - by taking souls up to heaven when that person is at home, safe, and sleeping so there wouldn't be accidents or stuff like that.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Mon Oct 26, 2009 - 23:14:29
Quote
Christ Has Returned Already?

No.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 09:57:41

Of course He did, just as He told His apostles & disciples. They knew the signs to look for- however, most of the apostles would be killed before Christ's return, at the end of the age. Christ intimated that John would "tarry till I come."  This is probably why 3 of the synoptic Gospels speak of the Olivet discourse- whereas the Gospel of John is silent.
We believe his Olivet discourse is shown & fulfilled in the Revelation- God, who knew the day & hour, gave Jesus & signified it through an angel to John.

Rev.14 depicts the Son of man on a cloud. In Mt.13:36-43, Jesus explained his parable of the wheat & tares. Concerning the time of the harvest he said, "the harvest is at the end of this age." (sunteleia tou aionos)
The Jews believed in 2 ages, "this age" & "the age to come." What's important in the N.T., the writers, especially Paul, show us the concept of the new creation, which of course is the determinative goal of the Apocalypse.
Author Longenecker states, "This eschatological perspective has to do first and foremost with the triumph of God that is taking effect in the establishment of a new world. It is a world where matters of circumcision and uncircumcision are irrelevant."
IOWs, for Paul, & thus for John, the new creation that was being anticipated had to do with the covenant change between the Old Covenant world of Israel, & the New Covenant world of Christ.
In Mt.13, Jesus didn't say, "the harvest is at the end of the age to come."
According to the Jews there was "this age" & the "age to come."
The pre-Messianic age & the Messianic age.
One futurist author i'll note said of Mt.13  & Jesus' prediction of the end of the age- "This could only be the Messianic age."  We preterists bring light to this - as that statement presents many problems for the futurist-
Jesus was living in the Mosaic Age (Gal4:4), which did not end until the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. In fact, the Mosaic Age was the only age predicted to end. The Christian age began & overlapped in the 1st century- but the Christian Age is the "age without end in Ephesians 3:20-21.
Thus you can begin to see the hype & suppositions surrounding erroneous thinking about a literal end of our world!

Christ returned in the clouds over Jerusalem. He fulfilled "all that was written." (Luke 21:20-22)

Tradition today just missed the "nature" of His coming.  All that was prophesied to "soon take place" - took place! 
Jesus shows us He was not a false prophet. ( Deut 18:22)

Praise God. He reigns!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: fish153 on Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 14:37:25
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses.  Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 20:59:16
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses. 
First, Christ would return in the clouds- the same as Acts 1. And the nature of Christ's coming is being hotly debated, at last. Did Christ predict a return in a literal fleshly body. Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth, yet, this essential truth is greatly ignored by most Bible students today.
The preterist view of prophecy is growing rapidly, across all denominational boundaries. The problem of the NT. time statements of the nearness of the end is unraveling in light of a better understanding of the nature of Christ's parousia (presence). In short, Jesus did not promise to come back in a physical body! He promised to come as the Father had come, and that precludes a visible, bodily coming!
Quote
Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).
Right back at ya. See the reference of the scoffers & Judaizers by Peter below.
Quote
Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.
Yep, and a thousand years is as one day too. And if you took the literal approach, the thousand years would have ended in the 11th century AD. Oh which btw, many Christians sold everything they had thinking the Lord was coming in the 11th century!
Ha! A really bad false prediction, of course.

The scoffers were bothering Peter saying, since the fathers all things have gone on the same" & he responds that it escapes their notice. It is easily seen in the context (when u aren't trying to prove anything) that the writer is saying just bc 1500 yrs. in coming, does not mean that the promise that is being fulfilled in our day (the intended audience) is taking forever...judgment has come...repent!

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: ex cathedra on Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 23:01:29
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.




Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Wed Oct 28, 2009 - 08:41:29
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.




Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 



I refused to be shocked by how you twisted God's word to make absolutely no sense.
Nothing could be further from the truth than the timing in your post.
God can tell time, friend- you just need to renew your mind & thinking when reading His time statements.

Mt.12:38-41,
  
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Lame Ranger on Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 10:16:05
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 11:21:43
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?


I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,
LR

Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!
It's like i waited 19 months to hear such a refreshing interpretation from a newbie! ::clappingoverhead::
 Ok, i'm calm now....(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Leisures_and_Sports/paint-055.gif)
See, i believe when Jesus told he apostles He would return, & receive them to Himself-
i see most of the apostles being dead at that time & Jesus "returning & receiving us to Himself" means seeing Him in heaven. For the apostles, they would have the H.S. until the prized possession (them, the church) was received up to God. Because they were "His" at his coming. Christ the firstfruits, then those who were His church (& were deceased) would be raised to heaven. And then, "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." (Rev.14:13)

Since the, when hades was destroyed, we all go directly to heaven.

Good post LR!

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Lame Ranger on Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 14:33:16
Hi rezar,

Quote
Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!


I haven't read a lot of posts yet so I don't how things go here or who thinks what. BUT I'm glad I found somebody that sees some things as I do. At the same time, I hope I don't offend others who think differently from what I do.

Hopefully, I will find some time in the next days to respond to some of these threads. I've noticed some that appear interesting.

Thanks for the response, rezar

LR
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 10:29:49
are u saying the anti christ  has reurned already at the un?

No, the question is, has Christ returned? The answer to that is in the Bible.

You imagining antichrists is folly. 

Mature Christians , even the Heathen, are wiser than such childish fantasies. ::smile::
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:14:23
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR
That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:25:39
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR
That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.
And you didn't answer my question to ya from reply #6 to your question.


Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Eccl12:13 on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:37:00

Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth


And there is lies your problem.  You think the one that was in the OT was the Father, when in fact it was Jesus Christ.

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

Man has NEVER seen the Father.

Man has NEVER heard the Father.

Man has NEVER had ANY dealings with the FATHER....EVER!

The ONLY one we have ever known is Jesus Christ!


And yes I can prove it with scriptures!



.



Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:38:26

Here's another Preterist study for your consideration on Christ's "return"
                              http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=50&a=1798
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 16:20:58
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.
Consider even one instance:
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. (Deut.4:11-14)

And it is like Paul says it was- hidden in ages past- but in the overlap of the prior dispensation of the law & the age of the Messiah - which Paul says was in his days being revealed. Paul was one of the "sons of the Resurrection" any way.
Col.1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


The Lord had cloud comings before. (Isa.19:1) Sometimes God is seen in the fire. (Father God is Spirit) Sometimes God was in the fire in the clouds.

Hebrews makes it known that the saints on earth had spiritually reached "perfection" in CHRIST, as to be like the faithful dead on God's holy Mt. Zion in heaven.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Eccl12:13 on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 20:05:00
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.


Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



.





Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 21:45:20
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.


Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



.







Israel saw the Messiah once He had come. The remnant at least. But that is not what is in question here. We are not discussing God's divinity. We are asking whether the Son of man returned in some way above the clouds in Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: k-pappy on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 12:53:54
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 16:03:38
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: k-pappy on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 18:52:50
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?

Not at all.  When Jesus came He completed His Father's plan for salvation.  When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Lame Ranger on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 20:18:11
Hi k-pappy

Quote
That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 20:28:38
by kp,
Quote
When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).
I can't even imagine what you are talking about there. And what does Jesus say He would be doing for us when He returned?
One scripture states He will appear "second time" (in Heb.) not for sin, but for "salvation." Like Noah & his family & the Flood,  the remnant would be saved from the wrath of the Roman/Jewish war.  This is already recorded in secular history. You miss the nature of His coming in the scriptures. I don't envy that. And of course the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. It wasn't suppose to subsist in the material realm. The Jews of Jesus' day thought the kingdom would continue to be a national one, but God terminated His theocratic relationship with Israel. And that was the end of the age. Not the world. Surely you can see the difference between "world" & "age" even in the Greek.
Aionos is an age . No serious Bible student sees this as meaning the end of the world.
Mt.13:37-43,
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom (old covenant Jews) all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. (great tribulation) There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Christianity won the day.

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.  ::amen!::

Difference is- I know how the age ended-  & seems some are still waiting to find out.   That gives Preterists a whole lotta time for other projects, especially not being deceived into thinking the world is going to end & Jesus will burst through the sky. This isn't a Batman movie.

Are you seriously that unrealistic?
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: k-pappy on Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 21:15:03
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so. 

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: freeman4 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:05:46
It does not really matter what is said about this subject because one is going to believe what one wants to believe anyway. If there is a God it will make a difference and if there is no God it will make no difference at all. But let us suppose that there is God and that He created all things and He put all things in motion.

Now, let us suppose that He has a plan that He is working out and that plan has been in place from the beginning of man kind. Of course we are just supposing. Now let us suppose that as mere human beings that we cannot comprehend the beginning of nothing and at that time there were only God beings. Now we are only supposing. Now let us suppose that the God beings decided that they wanted to play around with the notion of creating all things that are in existence. And let us suppose that they created the Universe and all that exist in it.

Now, let us suppose that they wanted to create a being called man and they said let us make man in our ( this God head ) Image. Again, we are just supposing. Let us suppose that if those God beings were to manifest themselves that they would look like a human being.

Now let us suppose that one of those God beings was eventually born physical and became known as Jesus Christ. Now let us realize that this was  a physical state and not Spiritual.

Now let us suppose that this Jesus Christ was crucified and was resurrected from the dead to a Spiritual state. Now, let us suppose that this was the First coming of Jesus Christ. The first time in a Spiritual manner.

Now, one can suppose all of this he wants but if one does not have Gods spirit dwelling in them then all of this will not make any difference at all to them. 

       “HEAVEN HERE ON EARTH
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:25:47
Quote
I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:35:52
Quote
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.  Amen!

Reformation1 has never ended.  Even if most have rejected it, including yourself, since you have rejected what all the reformers believed concerning biblical prophecy.  What you believe has nothing to do with the reformation, as I have already informed you, it is all about the counter-reformation of the Church of Rome.

II. Two Conflicting Alternatives Brought Forth

Rome’s answer to the Protestant Reformation was twofold, though actually conflicting and contradictory.  Through the Jesuits Ribera, of Salamanca, Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome, the Papacy put forth her Futurist interpretation.  And through Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, she advanced almost simultaneously the conflicting Preterist interpretation.  These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants.  Though mutually exclusive, either Jesuit alternative suited the great objective equally well, as both thrust aside the application of the prophecies from the existing Church of Rome.  The one accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome’s career.  The other achieved it by making it overlap the immense era of papal dominance, crowding Antichrist into a small fragment of time in the still distant future, just before the great consummation.  It is consequently often called the gap theory.

According to the Protestants, the vision of Babylon and the supporting Beast is divinely interpreted in chapter 17 of the Apocalypse.  It was on this that the Reformers commonly rested their case - the apostate woman, the Roman church: the city, seven hilled Rome; the many waters, the many peoples; the Beast, the fourth, or Roman, beast of Daniel: the sixth head, the Caesars; and the seventh, the popes.  Concerning the two alternatives, presented by Ribera and Alcazar, consigning Antichrist either to the remote past or future, Joseph Tanner, the Protestant writer, gives this record:

“Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.  The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavoured to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.  On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.  Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Riberas, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:51:52
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so.  

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP

You keep saying "show me" & when you are shown even one verse or an article to further explain all the reasoning that backs it, you just act like i never gave an explanation. - when i have been slowly but surely explaining Preterism for 1 1/2 yrs. in the "theology" section. I have only seen your posts of recently, with the new sub-forum created for "end-times." I have been sharing my knowledge of Biblical eschatology all along for a good 19 months here.
[More Christian forums are opening up & stating "preterist views welcome" So, that is a trend in a positive direction now too. All views should be made available as we search for the Truth in & of God's word.]
I will continue to do so, with God's help & those with an open mind will actually read it. But when one has not read of historical fulfillment or hears something not "orthodoxy" some will rebel for a time, until the wiser, more serious student personally realizes they are fooling themselves about the timing Jesus gave & God gave in Scripture.

What did Malachi say about the Jews when Jesus came? His prophecy is not about "Christians" in name or about the end of the church age. This age never ends! His kingdom never ends!
Mal4:5-6,

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
      Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
       6 And he will turn
      The hearts of the fathers to the children,
      And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
      Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:53:09
Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Lame Ranger on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:08:53
HI Amo

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Amo on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:13:00
Quote
Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR

I guess if I were determined to be a Preterist also, I would have no choice but to believe the same.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 09:20:00
Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!

Well, i don't. I usually have to admit that about my marriage though. Not proud of being a former "real good sinner"  But then, Jesus does forgive & forget our previous ignorance. Praise God!

3 times a charm! Married 24 yrs.  It's a charm alright, lol!  Well of course it is, compared to the former!

I wait on the Lord daily, or monthly or even hourly sometimes. He answers prayers & manifests Himself to us.

Last time i called on Him - He did swat the hurricane on the radar from hitting my city directly & broke it up into pieces- I watched the Lord's power happen right on the radar map!
Praise God!

Faith happens!

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: msterra36 on Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 17:17:42
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses.  Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.


Reading through this I was wondering if someone was going to mention about the length of time (stated in the Bible) I totally agree with your post. Our Time is not God's time.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: rezar on Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 17:38:53
by msterra,
Quote
Our Time is not God's time.

So when the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible & gave clear time statements to man (soon, now, at hand, you-the intended audience will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of man be come, etc.)  It was for nothing? How about the Word not returning to God void! And just how long would the apostles live ? "You" the intended audience- not us!

God can relate time to man.  Rev.1:1,  1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

God's time is not our time? Again, that would void God's word if He didn't relate time to man.




Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 17:26:39
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse. ([url]http://forums.somd.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif[/url])              ::shrug::
 Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
 


Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).


Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site!  We agree so much. I wish you and the other full preterists would return and help support preterism so we don't look dumb to the rest of the world!
Can you imagine the flesh-led people believing Jesus would return in the flesh!  Even saying He will return in the flesh a 3rd time!

I miss you and the others who know the Scriptures say only a second return and never in the flesh.

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: seekingHiswisdom on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 19:12:50
Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site!  We agree so much. I wish you and the other full preterists would return and help support preterism so we don't look dumb to the rest of the world!
Can you imagine the flesh-led people believing Jesus would return in the flesh!  Even saying He will return in the flesh a 3rd time!

I miss you and the others who know the Scriptures say only a second return and never in the flesh.

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.
Quote
God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.

Most, if not all on here would agree that God is in us.

But God within us certainly does not make a spiritual kingdom.

If that is so, then it certainly is not as we have believed either by education or preaching.

For what purpose would God have "completed" his plans in 70 AD and then force
continuing generations to endure a life of walking on this miserable earth unless you are of a mindset that mankind has to do this "until he gets it right"?

We are forced to endure pedophilia, child abuses, and the now killing of babys
after they are born. We are forced to hear of human trafficking,and drug abuses,and excessive alcohol usage.  Acceptance of sexting and orgies, and any abnormal use of the body. And within half a century all gays, male and female are out of the closet, and psychologists say bi-sexuals are more evenly balanced mentally. And the common place is males becoming female and females becoming males, and mothers taping down their baby sons penis so they wont show... and the cloning of animals, and the inevitable cloning of humans... and the experimentations of trying to make a super perfect human race. Yes,this is a goal beyond Adolph Hitler..... and much,much, much more. But I'll stop here,

And we are evermore forced to endure the greater part of the world condemning
those of us who have or faith squarely with and in Jesus. And who has believe
what is written within the four corners of the holy book called the Bible.

If all prophesy was completed by 70 AD.

Why these centuries of sewer living we are forced to live and to what end?

Be born, live through life , die and turn to the dust from where we came cause the spiritual kingdom is now...not in the future?




Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 19:50:07
Quote
Most, if not all on here would agree that God is in us.
But God within us certainly does not make a spiritual kingdom.
Why not?
Quote
If that is so, then it certainly is not as we have believed either by education or preaching.
Makes me glad I missed it.
Quote
For what purpose would God have "completed" his plans in 70 AD and then force
continuing generations to endure a life of walking on this miserable earth unless you are of a mindset that mankind has to do this "until he gets it right"?
What plans? Prophecy plans?  I thought He had plans for us and it was for good !!
Quote
We are forced to endure pedophilia, child abuses, and the now killing of babys
after they are born. We are forced to hear of human trafficking,and drug abuses,and excessive alcohol usage.  Acceptance of sexting and orgies, and any abnormal use of the body. And within half a century all gays, male and female are out of the closet, and psychologists say bi-sexuals are more evenly balanced mentally. And the common place is males becoming female and females becoming males, and mothers taping down their baby sons penis so they wont show... and the cloning of animals, and the inevitable cloning of humans... and the experimentations of trying to make a super perfect human race. Yes,this is a goal beyond Adolph Hitler..... and much,much, much more. But I'll stop here,
I don't feel "forced." I think you'
re picturing some utopia that God never promised us on earth. He promised grace for each day. There will always be evil people and things in this world. We do try to change it. It takes time, but I am optimistic. It's upsetting only when we can't do anything about it and feel helpless. But again, life is what we make it.
Quote
And we are evermore forced to endure the greater part of the world condemning
those of us who have or faith squarely with and in Jesus. And who has believe
what is written within the four corners of the holy book called the Bible.

If all prophesy was completed by 70 AD.

Why these centuries of sewer living we are forced to live and to what end?

Be born, live through life , die and turn to the dust from where we came cause the spiritual kingdom is now...not in the future?
Let them try to poke fun of Christians. We have God's favor so we overcome them in every way!
More than conquerors!!
Thank you Jesus  ::kissing::
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rob on Fri May 08, 2020 - 12:53:02
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sun May 10, 2020 - 18:07:24
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.
Trust me, it's option #3 for end times here with the choir.

Christ's kingdom did not come with observation.


Luke 17:20-25 (KJ21)

20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show.

21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.


So you see, we don't have to even depend on the testimony of Josephus and Tacitus to have physically seen Jesus and armies of angels in the clouds over Jerusalem. It's good to know that there was some answer to "what will be the sign of Your coming" asked by the disciples.

Otherwise, we must trust Jesus' return was acknowledged by the warning signs for the apostles and disciples to look for.  Especially the apostles who were to evangelize since Jesus left them in AD30 or 33. For almost 40 years God put up with backsliding Israel

Luke 21: The Destruction of Jerusalem
20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.…

Acts 13: 17The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers. He made them into a great people during their stay in Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out of that land. 18He endured their conduct for about forty years in the wilderness. ~emph. mine.

30AD-70AD- Israel either merged with Christianity or were left for the vultures of the air to eat there flesh. Those taken were taken as slaves - "But no one wanted to buy them."

Some of the CURSES in Deut.28:

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

Recognize the Romans here?

Also, during the Roman siege there was incredible famine as not to let the people leave the gates of the city. A woman is reported by Josephus that she ate her offspring in the famine!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:12:56
  Jesus' PHYSICAL return will be in great power & glory, as He said. And it'll be immediately after the great trib, as He said.

  Learn to believe what JESUS actually said, insteada what some pret crackpot said !
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rob on Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:48:55
Trust me, it's option #3 for end times here with the choir.

Christ's kingdom did not come with observation.


Luke 17:20-25 (KJ21)

20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show.

21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.


So you see, we don't have to even depend on the testimony of Josephus and Tacitus to have physically seen Jesus and armies of angels in the clouds over Jerusalem. It's good to know that there was some answer to "what will be the sign of Your coming" asked by the disciples.

Otherwise, we must trust Jesus' return was acknowledged by the warning signs for the apostles and disciples to look for.  Especially the apostles who were to evangelize since Jesus left them in AD30 or 33. For almost 40 years God put up with backsliding Israel

Luke 21: The Destruction of Jerusalem
20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.…

Acts 13: 17The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers. He made them into a great people during their stay in Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out of that land. 18He endured their conduct for about forty years in the wilderness. ~emph. mine.

30AD-70AD- Israel either merged with Christianity or were left for the vultures of the air to eat there flesh. Those taken were taken as slaves - "But no one wanted to buy them."

Some of the CURSES in Deut.28:

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

Recognize the Romans here?

Also, during the Roman siege there was incredible famine as not to let the people leave the gates of the city. A woman is reported by Josephus that she ate her offspring in the famine!
You're preaching to the choir, dispensationalism is heresy from the pit of hell.... I know because I used to be one of them.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dpr on Fri May 22, 2020 - 12:04:01
The reason for all the confusion about the second coming of Christ is because some scripture is talking about Christ returning at His resurrection from the dead and some scriptures refer to Jesus coming into a believers life and some verses speak about the second advent. It seems that all these different comings get lumped into one by most people.

Might be, but I tend to believe the confusion is because the children of darkness are involved, and they have an agenda to deceive the Church today. It's pretty easy to know that certain ones among the Orthodox Jews work against us, as the head of the ADL a few years ago was worried that they had to do something, because Christians were getting too strong in the movie making industry. Likewise, I believe some of the Christian seminaries exist to push confusion against God's Word.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Sat May 23, 2020 - 14:35:58
You're preaching to the choir, dispensationalism is heresy from the pit of hell.... I know because I used to be one of them.

 "Futurist" does NOT always mean "Dispy". For instance, I believe in only 3 dispensations - Old Covenant, New Covenant (now) & the new world after Jesus returns.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sun May 24, 2020 - 15:37:06
"Futurist" does NOT always mean "Dispy". For instance, I believe in only 3 dispensations - Old Covenant, New Covenant (now) & the new world after Jesus returns.

So you believe there's something beyond what the Bible states.  There's nothing beyond Mt. Zion-except in heaven.

"A new world order" is man-made.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:25:56
So you believe there's something beyond what the Bible states.  There's nothing beyond Mt. Zion-except in heaven.

"A new world order" is man-made.

  SCRIPTURE says otherwise. If you choose not to believe it, I can't help you. I can only post a warning to others to not fall for the same silliness YOU have.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Wed May 27, 2020 - 18:42:29
  SCRIPTURE says otherwise. If you choose not to believe it, I can't help you. I can only post a warning to others to not fall for the same silliness YOU have.
Prove it. Compare Scripture to Scripture regarding the last days of the old covenant age and God's
plan for Israel in their last days.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Fri May 29, 2020 - 17:20:55
Prove it. Compare Scripture to Scripture regarding the last days of the old covenant age and God's
plan for Israel in their last days.

 Let's start with Jeremiah 30:3-3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.” This was during the days of the babylonian captivity of Judah; Israel was already in exile in various lands.

Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west: I will say to the north, “Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 43:5-6)

  During their captivity to Babylon, Persia, & Greece, the Jews weren't too scattered. They weren't REALLY scattered til 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them out of their land, which, of course, occurred after the New Covenant was establidhed. So, this event is just now beginning.

  And here are a few more verses to confirm that fact :

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezek. 36:24)

“I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them”. “I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them.” (Amos 8:14-15)

“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel, I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in a pasture a noisy multitude of men.” (Micah 2:12)

  This isn't EVERY verse affirming God's promise to Israel & Judah, but it should be enough to convince any skeptic. remember, Scripture is largely the early history of Israel & Judah, while being a Jesus-centric work, with all Scripture pointing to Him.  But certainly, Gos is NOT through with the Israeli people !
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:03:33
God gathered the faithful of Israel to the heavenly realms. Mt. Zion.

The heroes of faith are remembered in  the New Covenant of Christ.
Rev.21
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the [j]names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 


The faithful of the 12 tribes were remembered by God. He had changed Israel's name to the "new Jerusalem."

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:25:21
  This is all yet future. No evidence it's already happened. The "old" Jerusalem is still here.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:03:19
  This is all yet future. No evidence it's already happened. The "old" Jerusalem is still here.

Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:33:47
Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

OF COURSE I do. Can you show it to us ? OF COURSE NOT ! It's still in heaven.

Quote
Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!

  It'll come when God's time for it arrives.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:13:18
Wow, rezar, I do miss the full preterists on this site! 

God is in us and some don't acknowledge his spiritual kingdom now.

WOW lea, You had to revive an 11 year old thread to bolster your points , or is it to
hopefully revive someone to your side?

One thing I do find of interest in this post is the historical mentions.....

Quote
Quote from: rezar on Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:41:29
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse.               ::shrug::
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
 
Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

We have been asking and asking and this is oh so close, but not on the mark.

Have you noticed ...These do describe the visions/ dreams of these men as to the actual destruction of the temple.

But they do not talk of anything as is laidout in the book of Revelation that would be such that you could confirm Jesus wasanywhere in the mx,eiter in person or spiritually.

Josephus' account is the most believable because according to this he wrote it only 5 years after the destruction, and was obviously an eye witness.

Tacitus came about in c 115 AD. It is not clear, by this portion if he had been
an eye witness, or if he was just putting to parchment things being said as they passed down by generation. You can look it up and clarify. I am not going to as I am not making your case for you.

But while you are at it....Clarify this please...

In the sky appeared a vision ( kind of like Johns, though written long after) of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.

Such confusion. Seems as if this was Satan's superhuman voice declaring the demons were leaving it and out they came. This is not God'ssuper human voice as no one with in the temple would have been gods ( plural) as He would be the only one... ( Yet note this - The original Greek word daimon does not carry negative connotations.[1] The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daimōn denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen ...so could be that it was and likely is demonsleaving.)

SO WE ARE SAFE TO SAY THIS IS NOT A HISTORICAL ACCOUNT.... SCRATCH IT!

Now enters
Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8)

I still want a dog named Eusebius......

Generations past 70AD and we have a hand me down account of someones vision.
His?  John's? But no linking of this to 70AD andno linking of Jesus oranything else
much from Rev that said the endisover and donewith.

Sorry, lea, Still no proof..........
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:21:19


"A new world order" is man-made.

And you are smack dab in the middle of the formation of it. The new world order is
coming full speed ahead and you cannot stop it. It iIS man madeby the directives of Satan and the man that sits on 7 hills.

This is not the new world after Jesus returns as robycop is referencing.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:24:11
Let's start with Jeremiah 30:3-3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.” This was during the days of the babylonian captivity of Judah; Israel was already in exile in various lands.

Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west: I will say to the north, “Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 43:5-6)

  During their captivity to Babylon, Persia, & Greece, the Jews weren't too scattered. They weren't REALLY scattered til 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them out of their land, which, of course, occurred after the New Covenant was establidhed. So, this event is just now beginning.

  And here are a few more verses to confirm that fact :

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezek. 36:24)

“I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them”. “I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them.” (Amos 8:14-15)

“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel, I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in a pasture a noisy multitude of men.” (Micah 2:12)

  This isn't EVERY verse affirming God's promise to Israel & Judah, but it should be enough to convince any skeptic. remember, Scripture is largely the early history of Israel & Judah, while being a Jesus-centric work, with all Scripture pointing to Him.  But certainly, Gos is NOT through with the Israeli people !

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:30:35
Might be, but I tend to believe the confusion is because the children of darkness are involved, and they have an agenda to deceive the Church today. It's pretty easy to know that certain ones among the Orthodox Jews work against us, as the head of the ADL a few years ago was worried that they had to do something, because Christians were getting too strong in the movie making industry. Likewise, I believe some of the Christian seminaries exist to push confusion against God's Word.

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: for you also.

I might add that not only do the seminaries exist to push confusion against Gods word but also in these endtimes we do have Satan in the Sanctuaries, which is provable,but a subject for another thread.

And man is too weak to see or understand....
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:37:27
[quote author=lea link=topic=37669.msg1055165069#msg1055165069

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!
[/quote]

Leaving the Jews out of it... You are describing those who are saved vs all others.

And it has not happened... it is yet to come.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:52:08
Wow, you even deny the "New Jerusalem" has come for all believers!

Tough luck for you then, because that's where the river of life flows.

That's what happens when you support the old, dead Jerusalem and not the Jerusalem that is above!

Yep, I still believe in the old God. You obviously are following the new one. The one whpo has the sister of my friend preaching the new God wants everyone happy and
therefore allowed her to divorce her husband to go find another.

Everything you say seems to confirm what she says....   ::doh::

As to the New Jerusalem. Prove it.

Give historical prooof that this was recorded somewhere in the past 2000 years.

REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Surly you  have to admit if someone saw anew city descending from the sky
they would have been talking about it for weeks and someone would have written it down.

Why didn't they.....?

AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.........

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Why do we still have seas and oceans?  My last cruise definitely on a large expanse of water.

Do you think maybe we really do have alternate universes and you live in one, I live in another and by the miracle of satellites and electronic means we are able to connect?  Yes... that must be it.

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:55:43
OF COURSE I do. Can you show it to us ? OF COURSE NOT ! It's still in heaven.

  It'll come when God's time for it arrives.

Repeating myself... if it had descended from heaven...it WOULD have been recorded.

It is all in God's perfect timing.

OK boys and girls...I will be off for a couple of hours... later  ::tippinghat::

Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sun May 31, 2020 - 15:12:48
[quote author=lea link=topic=37669.msg1055165069#msg1055165069

Notice how only the faithful servants came to the wedding feast? The rest of Israel was cast out to gnashing of teeth place!


Leaving the Jews out of it... You are describing those who are saved vs all others.

And it has not happened... it is yet to come.

See, you're trying to predict the future again because you misinterpret the parable.

His servants (which are Jews in the parable)went out to invite the other Jews which were God's people at the time, recused themselves from coming to the wedding of the Lamb,  were the ones who were sentenced to God's wrath. The faithful ones are all the believers (His original servant Jews) and non- Jews= Christians)

Some say we are invited to the wedding feast as soon as we confess Christ as Lord and Savior.
This may be a "type" from the parable that is ongoing today.

But the original parable in Matt.22 notes this:

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

In vs 7, can you see the apostate Israel's great and terrible day of the Lord/ the great tribulation?

It's not hard to decipher.  Tell me if you understand this to be compared with God's wrath on the apostate Jews in Revelation.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Sun May 31, 2020 - 16:49:55
  Well, ACTUALLY,  israelis & gentiles alike are invited. The "wedding feast" will occur when it's time for Rev. 22:11 to be fulfilled.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rella on Sun May 31, 2020 - 18:42:05
See, you're trying to predict the future again because you misinterpret the parable.

His servants (which are Jews in the parable)went out to invite the other Jews which were God's people at the time, recused themselves from coming to the wedding of the Lamb,  were the ones who were sentenced to God's wrath. The faithful ones are all the believers (His original servant Jews) and non- Jews= Christians)

Some say we are invited to the wedding feast as soon as we confess Christ as Lord and Savior.
This may be a "type" from the parable that is ongoing today.

But the original parable in Matt.22 notes this:

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

In vs 7, can you see the apostate Israel's great and terrible day of the Lord/ the great tribulation?

It's not hard to decipher.  Tell me if you understand this to be compared with God's wrath on the apostate Jews in Revelation.

What I understand is God's wrath will not be localized to only apostate Jews, but to those apostates of every form and religion and especially those who attempt to deceive the very elect by twisting and turning His holy words away from what
the original intention was.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: lea on Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:24:24
What I understand is God's wrath will not be localized to only apostate Jews, but to those apostates of every form and religion and especially those who attempt to deceive the very elect by twisting and turning His holy words away from what
the original intention was.
Sounds like a threat Rella!

You didn't even consider the interpretation of the parable that I offered, but let Satan put it in your heart hateful words towards Someone's child!
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:47:36
Robycop3, I find your reply #89 to be really deluded regarding the post-exilic return of the scattered tribes.  You state that they were not really scattered that much until Hadrian, but that opinion contradicts Cyrus’ decree.  He sent out his decree in Ezra 1:1-3 to every nation under his control in the whole habitable world at that time, encouraging the return of the tribes’ families to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple.  Sorry, but the texts you present of a regathering of the tribes back to Israel are NOT referring to modern-day events, but to the return after 70 years of captivity under the Babylonians.

And Rella, your objections to a fulfilled “no more SEA” in our current New Heavens and New Earth are not taking Jewish terminology into consideration.   John was not talking about oceanography and maritime realities. To the Jews of old, the SEA typically referred to pagan Gentile nations, just as the LAND typically referred to their own promised land of Canaan where the tribes of Israel had their inheritance.

This is why John pronounced woe in Rev. 12:12 upon the inhabitants of the LAND (of Israel), and upon the inhabitants of the SEA (pagan Gentile nations).  He was not warning sharks, plankton, and jellyfish of coming disasters by the Satanic realm at that time.

Isaiah 60:5 also made the same comparison of the SEA to GENTILE NATIONS when he said that the “abundance of the SEA” would be converted to the Lord, by the “forces of the GENTILES” coming to the Lord.

You’re not the only one getting this issue confused, Rella.  A Furman university professor I used to go to church with also had the same idea you have about “no more sea” meaning no more oceans existing in the world.  As a great fan of vacations to the oceanside, they were greatly relieved to see (by the scriptures I just gave) that God was not promising in Rev. 21:1 to get rid of the oceans on this planet.

And I notice that no one above gave the year when all those miraculous signs appeared in the heavens and the temple that were recorded by Tacitus and Josephus.  Josephus said these miraculous signs took place “...BEFORE the Jews rebellion, and BEFORE those commotions which preceded the war...” (Wars 6.5.3/290-291).  The priests taking note of these signs interpreted them to “portend those events that immediately followed it” (meaning the Jewish rebellion started by the Zealots and the Roman / Jewish war).

So these signs of armies in the skies, the star looking like a sword hanging over Jerusalem, the bright light around the altar during the night, the heavy temple gate opening by itself, the heifer giving birth to a lamb in the temple on the way to being sacrificed, and the tumult and quaking of a great multitude leaving the temple saying “Let us depart hence” - all these occurred in AD 66 before Eleazar jump-started the rebellion against Rome late that year.   

This great multitude departing the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost was not DEMONIC forces leaving the temple.  It was RIGHTEOUS angels leaving it just before Jerusalem became a “prison” (phulake) that confined every unclean spirit without exception within its walls, according to Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-22.  The righteous angels were “getting out of Dodge”, as it were, before it was given over to hordes of imprisoned demons and those they tormented - the “seven-fold” numbers of devils that Christ had predicted would come upon that same wicked generation in its “last state” (Matt. 12:43-45).

This occasion of the sound of the great multitude of righteous angels leaving the temple at Pentecost was also dated to begin the 5 months of demon-inspired torment put upon the citizens of Judea (Rev. 9:3-11).  God allowed this so that they would be compelled in desperation to revolt against their abuse by governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops.

This EXIT of the righteous multitude from the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost (Wars 6.5.3/299-300) was polar opposite to the Pentecost of Acts 2, which sound of a rushing mighty wind brought the fullness of the Spirit’s power INTO the Temple to rest on the believers assembled there.     

I have often heard Full Preterists suggest that these heavenly apparitions and miraculous signs in the temple cited by Josephus and Tacitus were signs that Christ had just accomplished His return, and that these were the only physical manifestations of that return.  That idea is not quite on target date wise.  Christ did not bodily return for the bodily resurrection of His saints until Pentecost of AD 70 - not AD 66.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 04:47:28
  Sorry, Captain, but the delusions seem to be YOURS, or those of some quackery you've read from some charlatan pret author. The 10 tribes were scattered, beginning shortly after their deportation by the Assyrians. As time passed, the Assyrians became more-concerned with events occurring near their own land & didn't really try to rule over the Israelis & other peoples they'd exiled to the fringes of their empire. Soon, the Israelis came under the rule of whoever had the strongest nation in the areas they been deported to, and over time, forgot their actual national identity. However, a few retained theirs long enough to heed Cyrus' call. But by the time Jesus was born, only a very few realized they were Israelis.

  And that's the situation today. While there are many Israelis scattered thruout the world they don't know they're Israelis. But God will make them aware so they'll heed His call to re-assemble in their own land.

  And "sea" means SEA. The new, re-arranged world won't have any oceans. A bad pret habit is to change the actual meaning of some words & phrases in Scripture to attempt to match their imaginations. I believe GOD views such changes as adding to or subtracting from His word. He used specific words for specific reasons, & shame on us if we change them by trying to give them different meanings. If I say "car", I don't mean "boat". God said 'sea' & He didn't mean 'people' !

  And there are no Scriptures saying the temple was full of angels. And if there were angels there, they wouldn't be afraid of any demons.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 06:48:59
Hey robycop3,

Where did I say anything at all about the righteous angels being AFRAID of evil ones?  I didn’t.  I believe God was deliberately withdrawing the presence of righteous angels from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 on Pentecost day to give free reign to the entire realm of unclean spirits that were going to be put in PRISON (phulake) within the city during those final years of AD 66-70 (as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted).

The insane, suicidal activities that the Zealots  perpetrated upon their own people and themselves during those years is proof positive of the  saturating presence of the demonic realm within the city, and was a fulfillment of Christ’s prediction in Matthew 12:43-45 for the “last state” of that wicked generation, as I said before.  That’s why this period was called the "Great tribulation" such as had never been, or that ever would be duplicated in the future after that (Matt. 24:21), because the demonic realm was destroyed at the end of AD 70, and is not in existence anymore to instigate this same type of mayhem.  What evil we see going on now in the world is strictly due to humanity’s own heart evil expressing itself, which you want to deny.

And as for my quoting Preterist authors, I don’t believe I have ever given a single quote by a modern-day Preterist author in anything I have ever written.  I keep my nose buried in scripture for the vast majority of my studies.

What you are ignoring, robycop3, is the entire books of Ezra and Nehemiah and Haggai and parts of other prophetic books like Zephaniah and Zechariah that directly addressed the time of the post-exilic return after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.  Why are you trying to flush this time period as if it never existed?  Very strange hermeneutics you are practicing.

The post-exilic return years with the returning tribes were when Jerusalem would be “inhabited as towns WITHOUT WALLS for the multitude of men and cattle therein”, after Zion had delivered itself from “dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON” (Zech. 2:4,7).  You had given a challenge before about proving when the Gog prophecy was fulfilled with Israel dwelling in the “UNwalled villages”.  Well, here is the proof of that time, and it was going to develop after the tribes returned from their BABYLONIAN captivity according to Zechariah - not a time future to us.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: robycop3 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 16:41:25
Hey robycop3,

Where did I say anything at all about the righteous angels being AFRAID of evil ones?  I didn’t.  I believe God was deliberately withdrawing the presence of righteous angels from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 on Pentecost day to give free reign to the entire realm of unclean spirits that were going to be put in PRISON (phulake) within the city during those final years of AD 66-70 (as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted).

The insane, suicidal activities that the Zealots  perpetrated upon their own people and themselves during those years is proof positive of the  saturating presence of the demonic realm within the city, and was a fulfillment of Christ’s prediction in Matthew 12:43-45 for the “last state” of that wicked generation, as I said before.  That’s why this period was called the greatest tribulation that had ever been or that ever would be in the future after that (Matt. 24:21), because the demonic realm was destroyed at the end of AD 70, and is not in existence anymore to instigate this type of mayhem.  What evil we see going on now in the world is strictly due to humanity’s own heart evil expressing itself, which you want to deny.

And as for my quoting Preterist authors, I don’t believe I have ever given a single quote by a modern-day Preterist author in anything I have ever written.  I keep my nose buried in scripture for the vast majority of my studies.

What you are ignoring, robycop3, is the entire books of Ezra and Nehemiah and Haggai and parts of other prophetic books like Zephaniah and Zechariah that directly addressed the time of the post-exilic return after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.  Why are you trying to flush this time period as if it never existed?  Very strange hermeneutics you are practicing.

The post-exilic return years with the returning tribes were when Jerusalem would be “inhabited as towns WITHOUT WALLS for the multitude of men and cattle therein”, after Zion had delivered itself from “dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON” (Zech. 2:4,7).  You had given a challenge before about proving when the Gog prophecy was fulfilled with Israel dwelling in the “UNwalled villages”.  Well, here is the proof of that time, and it was going to develop after the tribes returned from their BABYLONIAN captivity according to Zechariah - not a time future to us.

1. No Scripture saying angels occupied the temple.

2. The great trib will be WORLD-WIDE, as Rev. 3:10 says.

3. The Gog-Magog war hasn't yet happened.  The Zealot attack was NOT that war, as the presiding nations will send ARMIES, not just a token force.

4. The daughter of Babylon was NOT the land of Babylon, nor the city of Babylon, but was its RELIGION. While most jews worshipped God after being allowed to return to their land, many still offered cakes to the "queen of heaven" & wept for Tammuz, both elements of the "mystery, Babylon" religion.

5. Jerusalem was rebuilt with walls, as is proven by the fact it could only be entered thru its gates. (There was a small breach in its wall called "the eye of a needle" thru which men & unloaded camels could enter. Merchants sometimes sneaked in on the Sabbath when the gates were locked, but they had to unload their camels so they could enter thru it. That gave rise to Jesus saying it was easier to pass thru the eye of a needle...

  While you might not QUOTE those pret quacks directly, you use their goofy ideas. Almost the same difference, & just-as-incorrect !
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: dpr on Fri Oct 23, 2020 - 10:56:55
Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.



I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   


What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!

Are you challenging my pov, kensington?

Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

Mt.24:31-34,
 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth?  Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?

Don't feel sad about it. Think please!

In His service,
rezar

And what I find that is even more sad, are brethren in Christ that are so deceived they don't realize it's impossible to prevent even the atheist from posting junk here, lest the administrators shut the forum down.
Title: Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
Post by: Rob on Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:37:39
I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.

                           ([url]http://forums.somd.com/images/customavatars/avatar3226_17.gif[/url])


Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."

There are many "comings" of Christ. He left the world at his death, then returned the 3rd day. He comes to a believer at salvation. He comes to a believer at the death of the believer, as shown with Stephen.

All of these comings get lumped together into "the second coming" for some reason. Jesus was pretty clear when he said his kingdom was not of this world, there is no reason to come here again.