Author Topic: Christ Has Returned Already?  (Read 11475 times)

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Offline dp

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Christ Has Returned Already?
« on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:13:45 »
If we listen to God in His written Word it's very easy to know that Christ's second coming has not happened yet today.

Acts 1:9-12
9   And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10   And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11   Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
12   Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

Christ's disciples were on the Mount of Olives there speaking to our Lord Jesus when He ascended up in a cloud to Heaven. Then two angels appeared and told them, "this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

That's written so plain a little child can understand it. Christ's second coming is to occur in like manner how He ascended in cloud up into Heaven. That was real what Christ's disciples saw. They were not having some far out LSD hallucination. Nor was it a mystical experience. It was actual, it really happened just like the Scripture says.

Is it written elsewhere in God's Word about Christ's coming in like manner as that? YES, in several Scriptures, like Matthew 24:30-31, Matthew 25:31, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, 1 Thess.4:16-17, 2 Thess.1:7, and especially in the Old Testament Book of Zechariah 14...

Zech 14:1-11
1   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

In the very end to signal Christ's second coming, "all nations" will come up against Jerusalem to battle. But we know per Revelation 9-11 that final battle will be with spiritual deception especially, from a false one that will be set up there to create the fake "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5.

Zech.14:3   Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

This is the event of Armageddon mentioned in Rev.16 when Christ will come with His mighty angels to partake in that battle. That's the 7th vial timing, which is poured out into the air, signifying the end of this world today.

Zech.14:4      And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Here we are told Christ's feet will literally touch down upon the Mount of Olives, the very area on earth where His disciples saw Him ascend into Heaven by a cloud per Acts 1.

Along with that event, in Jerusalem, a great valley will be formed there when Christ's feet touch down on earth. The Mount of Olives will literally split in two, half of it moved to the north, and half of it moved to the south. Anyone saying that happened in 70 A.D. is clearly out of their mind.

Zech.14:5    And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

That great valley formed there in Jerusalem by Christ's feet touching down on earth will be for the gathering of His saints to Him, there. Shouldn't those who say Christ's second coming is history be thinking why they haven't been gathered there to Christ yet? If they considered these REQUIRED prophetic conditions, they might change their thinking on the time of Christ's second coming per the Scripture.

For those who listen to God's Word this should be easy to know Christ's second coming is still yet to occur. Some stop here in Zech.14, but let's keep going so we can note other REQUIRED conditions for Christ's coming, and understand it's still yet future.

Zech.14:6    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7   But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Do you remember when our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24 that no man knows the day or hour of His coming? What's this "that at evening time it shall be light"? It means the sky is going to be lit up even at night time with Christ's glory coming in the clouds to Jerusalem.

Zech.14:8   And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Here's another condition that is REQUIRED with that time of Christ's coming. Do you remember the pure River of the Waters of Life mentioned in Rev.22 and Ezekiel 47? That's about the Waters that issue out from Christ's sanctuary on earth, and go eastward into the Dead Sea and heal it. And wherever that River flows on earth the waters will be healed (per Ezek.47). Do you see that in place today in Jerusalem? Obviously not, because it has not happened yet today.

Zech.14:9    And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Is this saying there will be many religions on earth with belief on many gods? It's just the opposite, only ONE LORD over all the earth, over all peoples. That's another marker, because today there are many different religions in the world with their many gods. When Christ comes, all the false idols and many gods worship will end.

Zech.14:10   All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11   And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)

We are told of a "great earthquake" there in Jerusalem that's to occur with Christ's coming (Rev.6:12 on the 6th seal, Rev.11:13 at the same 'hour' when God's two witnesses in Jerusalem are suddenly resurrected, and in Rev.16:18 when the 7th vial is poured out into the air, signaling Christ's coming.

So there's no way anyone will miss the time of Christ's second coming. Philosophical mystical mumbo jumbo by the Preterists can't even compare with what God's Word says about it.


Tantor

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 29, 2009 - 08:56:37 »
It did happen.. the bible says when it was to happen and that time passed a long time ago.

To say that it hasn't happened is to believe only the part of the scriptures that you want.


Offline dp

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Aug 30, 2009 - 08:51:40 »
It did happen.. the bible says when it was to happen and that time passed a long time ago.

To say that it hasn't happened is to believe only the part of the scriptures that you want.



Your words go directly opposite of the Scripture evidence I posted above. Nor have you given any Scripture evidence to back up what you're saying. So you're just passing hot air, and nothing more.

Tantor

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 07:54:28 »
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.


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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 07:54:28 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

crowcamp

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 16:24:44 »
Not taking the time to look up BCV, but Jesus also said "I am with you always."
Have to agree with Tantor that He returned long ago. Have long thought that if we lived knowing He is with us it would change everything. That He has not returned seems to be a convenient excuse for many things.

And personally, I know He is here.  ::smile::

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 16:24:44 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 19:13:42 »
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 22:23:24 »
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?


I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.

                           


Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."


HRoberson

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 22:38:08 »
Josephus says that there was seen in the clouds an Army during the destruction of Jerusalem.

While Josephus is not always apolitical, nor always accurate, there isn't any reason to believe that he made this up. And there doesn't seem to be a political reason to report this concept.

Didn't somebody say something about coming in the clouds?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 14:19:59 »
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.

Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."
Coming again is probably the wrong terminology.  Essentially, I believe that Jesus will at some point deliver up the kingdom that He has subdued to His Father, at which time there will be judgment and the end of the world.

1Cr 15:24   Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
1Cr 15:25   For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 
1Cr 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 
1Cr 15:27   For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 
1Cr 15:28   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things 

I don't mind being compared to the "non-serious" pan-millenialists in the least.  Far better to admit being unsure of some things, than to be obsessed with explaining every detail.

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Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 17:01:25 »
by Jarrod,
Quote
Coming again is probably the wrong terminology.  Essentially, I believe that Jesus will at some point deliver up the kingdom that He has subdued to His Father, at which time there will be judgment and the end of the world.

Yes, i can see how non-serious a student of eschatology you are there. But all are entitled to their opinion. We are social animals.(most of us anyway)
But i do disagree with all 3 points there,
1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
2. about a corporate throne "judgment" still to come. God judges now-today- no one goes to "hell" either.
3. The "end of the world."  The Bible speaks of an end to the Jewish "world" or age-but not the material world. (foundations of the earth were not destroyed with the Flood- just the wicked therein. Same for the great trib on the Jews)
Quote
I don't mind being compared to the "non-serious" pan-millenialists in the least.  Far better to admit being unsure of some things, than to be obsessed with explaining every detail.

Well, at least your end justifies your means. Some don't admit their unsure but are obsessed with expounding their "literal"suppositions & their fantasies in their every detail!


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 17:52:51 »
1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.

Amo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 18:22:57 »
Quote
Josephus says that there was seen in the clouds an Army during the destruction of Jerusalem.

While Josephus is not always apolitical, nor always accurate, there isn't any reason to believe that he made this up. And there doesn't seem to be a political reason to report this concept.

Didn't somebody say something about coming in the clouds?

Yes they did, but nothing about seeing armies in the clouds. 

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
   
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Josephus saw the clouds of earth in the shape of soldiers.  The above verses say Jesus will come in the clouds of heaven.  They say every eye will see Him.  They say all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.  They say the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light, the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.  They say also that the coming of Christ will be as it was in Noah's day, that is, all of humanity will be destroyed at that time, save the elect that will be gathered from the four winds.  Obviously none of this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed.

One must use some kind of Preterist reverse biblical symbolism to come up with the destruction of Jerusalem being the second coming of Christ.  Symbolism that makes what the scriptures say, actually mean much less than what they are saying.  Not to mention the problem with the above scriptures telling us not to believe anyone that tells you Christ has come in this or that specific place, such as Jerusalem. 



Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:41:29 »
I can't figure whether you're angry bc preterists are right about Biblical eschatology & you're not, or you're perturbed bc Jesus is not coming again?!-  Jesus is already within us in Spirit. Yet you seem to want to drive the car in reverse.               ::shrug::
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. " (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

 


Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

Offline janine

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 19:55:20 »
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?

Amo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Sep 01, 2009 - 21:31:59 »
Quote
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life? What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?



Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God
, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?






Offline dp

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #15 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 05:37:31 »
That's OK Amo, we don't don't have to give any answer to those who rape God's Word in denying the many Scriptures of Christ's literal physical second coming of the future. Those have left God's Word, so they'll deny all the major events written that are to occur at His coming also. Christ will answer those in due time.

Tantor

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 06:35:58 »
Rape God's word?.... you should look in the mirror!.  It's you guys that don't take all of God's word into consideration and would rather have some get out of life free card... its a convenient excuse so you dont have to work for the kingdom of the Lord that hard.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 12:49:35 »
I'm not going to get an answer to this, am I?

1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 13:45:57 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 19:08:23 »
I'm not going to get an answer to this, am I?

1. about the kingdom Christ handed up at the end of the age.(Jewish age) You have it as future, yet the 2nd Psalm proves it was Christ as Messiah who would rule ecclesiastically over national Israel & His kingdom would be spiritual- which is what it became when the old heavens & earth pass away= a New Jerusalem- the new creation. Like us (the church)
I don't get that out of the 2nd Psalm at all.  Nor its counterparts in the book of Hebrews and Acts 13.  Please explain.
Yes, but one needs a preterist background most likely to understand it anyway.

 i do not see how you as a futurist- deny Scripture! Jesus said He was coming back in His generation. The whole NT is replete with end of the age acknowledgments by the apostles & last days statements by Jesus & the apostles.

The orthodoxy you hold onto calls Jesus the apostles liars. The book of Revelation says in the 1st chapter that the prophecy written in it was near. The last chapter of the N.T. (Rev.22:6) ends with:
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:09:43 »
That wasn't an explanation.

And I do think he came in the 1st century, so most of what you wrote there didn't apply to me.  I just happen to believe there's still something more to be done.

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 08:38:03 »
by Jarrod,
Quote
I just happen to believe there's still something more to be done.

There's ALWAYS something TO BE DONE. We aren't dead yet!

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

      Our Father in heaven,
      Hallowed be Your name.
       10 Your kingdom come.
      Your will be done
      On earth as it is in heaven.
       11 Give us this day our daily bread.
       12 And forgive us our debts,
      As we forgive our debtors.
       13 And do not lead us into temptation,
      But deliver us from evil.
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 13:41:06 »
I meant on God's part.

Consider:
1Cr 15:19   If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 13:46:06 »
So, let me get this straight...unless I have a preterist background, then your "proof" from Psalm 2 won't make any sense to me?  That doesn't sound like much of a proof there.

Come one, quit dodging and explain it already.

Offline fish153

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #23 on: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 14:33:26 »
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24: 14)

It is very obvious when Jesus said the above he was not saying that the Gospel would be preached throughout the whole world and to all nations within the first century.  Those who state Jesus said he would return within the same generation are completey mistaken and interpret scripture incorrectly.

I have seen people take the verse where Christ says "There are some standing here who will not taste of death until they see Christ coming in his glory" and say he is inferring he will return within the same generation.  Yet, just a few verses later he is transfigured in front of Peter James and John and they see him in all his glory. We clearly see he is not referring to returning in that same generation, but was referring to those who would see him transfigured before them.
Peter later says in 2 Peter:

"We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming  of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty.   For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, "This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain". (2 Peter 1:16-18)

Peter clearly states he has ALREADY SEEN Christ coming in power and glory on the Holy Mount when he witnessed the transfiguration. Yet he is not saying that Christ had returned already, or was due back soon.  Paul told the Thessalonians not to be misled by those who said that Jesus had returned already---and then goes on to describe the great apostasy and appearance of Anti-Christ that must happen before Christ returns.

But some seek to twist the scriptures to infer Christ has already returned.  It is just not the case---Jesus will return the same way he left----he ascended physically in front of his disciples, and he will descend in front of the world in the near future.  Hallelujah!!    ::amen!::
 
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 14:39:44 by fish153 »

crowcamp

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Sep 04, 2009 - 19:25:00 »
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?
Okay, here's my take. I believe Christ is here, and if that be via a "return" or not doesn't matter. He stated He is "with us always". If you truly believe that it will "affect" every moment of your daily life. What it "means" for your "daily walk" is a complete understanding of value and purpose and a total absence of fear.

And then, you can begin to make things better- for everyone.

Offline dp

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 08:13:15 »
And what about those Christians in lands like Sudan and Indonesia, which contain mostly Muslims that are beheading Christians today just for being Christian? Do you think Christ is not going to take revenge upon those when He comes to judge them?

II Th 1:7-10
7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8   In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10   When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

Christ's first coming was meek as a Lamb to be a sacrifice for the sins of those who believe on The Father through His Blood. But His second coming is to be one of rule over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Revelation). He's not coming the second time meek as a Lamb.

Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 08:22:08 »
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 19:24:56 »
Will Preterists please explain the global nature of the following prophecies, and how they could possibly all apply to the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.




Offline Elaine

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Sep 05, 2009 - 21:45:26 »
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?

You hold back too much, Janine.   rofl

Offline kensington

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 02:55:19 »
There are a bunch of variations on the theme -- Jesus never came yet at all, Jesus came and left, Jesus came and never left, Jesus came and is coming back, Jesus came and came again and is never coming back, Jesus came and came again and is coming back again, there is really no Jesus, I found Jesus behind the sofa...

I think most of those are a crock.  ::doh::

But I have to ask -- whoever wants to answer -- If your point of view, your interpretation is true -- how does that affect my daily life?  What does it mean for me in my daily Christian walk?

In other words, why should I care?

Wow Janine... You have changed. 

Offline kensington

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 02:59:23 »
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 09:33:14 »
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   

What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!

Are you challenging my pov, kensington?

Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,


Mt.24:31-34,
 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth?  Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?

Don't feel sad about it. Think please!

In His service,
rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 11, 2009 - 17:21:10 »
Will Preterists please explain the global nature of the following prophecies, and how they could possibly all apply to the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.




Just an observation.....apocalytic language is usually cosmic or global in nature. When God speaks of judgement in the OT, the imagery is massive or global. But it only applies to a backwater of the globe.

Revelation is in the same genre; we should expect it to be parallel.

Offline Kevin-2012

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 20:51:16 »
And you find fault in me when this nonsense floats around!!

Offline kensington

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #34 on: Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 02:28:40 »
by dp,
Quote
Nor will Christ's enemies be persuaded towards peace and good will towards mankind. His enemies will continue to serve their father the devil, and one of the devil's titles is The Destroyer (Rev.9). For this reason, there will be Judgment at His return, and He will take vengeance upon all those who have mocked and slandered Him. It will be a fearful thing to come under His rod punishment.

Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.


I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread....  no one is discussing anything..  just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post. 

This is sad.   

What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!

Are you challenging my pov, kensington?

Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,


Mt.24:31-34,
 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth?  Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?

Don't feel sad about it. Think please!

In His service,
rezar


I don't know what all that was about....  and I don't even care.  Admin...  What were you thinking??  ROTFLOL!