Author Topic: Christ Has Returned Already?  (Read 11471 times)

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Scoobydoo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Oct 08, 2009 - 18:23:32 »
Greetings in Christ from now sunny Texas,

There is a movement in our land identified as the 70ad theory which wants to have Christ coming back in 70 AD. Over the years that comes to the forefront and then sort of disappears for a while.
A lot folks believe that even though that is not taught in scripture.

Since Christ is "right now" and right now begins at "pentecost" reigning and ruling..so are the Christians who are His by faith and obedience to His gospel. ::preachit::

Being in Christ means that we also reign and rule with Christ...but here is the problem. The Jews of the days of Jesus rejected Him as their Messiah because He did not conform to their man made scribal law view of their Messiah.  They then and folks still do today want and earthly physical kingdom and that is not what is taught. We are the new priesthood--we are the new covenant people of God and with Christ we reign and we rule-- -- but not over other people.

Now, if Jesus did not conform to the lost people of God's view of the Messiah what makes anyone believe that He will do so today?



Amo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #36 on: Thu Oct 08, 2009 - 23:17:17 »
Quote
Just an observation.....apocalyt ic language is usually cosmic or global in nature. When God speaks of judgement in the OT, the imagery is massive or global. But it only applies to a backwater of the globe.

Revelation is in the same genre; we should expect it to be parallel.

That is exactly what I would believe, if I did not want to accept a final global judgement and end to this present world.  However, the bible clearly teaches the same.  It is more likely that the old testament prophecies that you are referring to, do actually point to the final global judgement, and the end of this world.  The backwater stuff that you are talking about from the old testament, are smaller types of the global and universal fulfillment of the new covenant era, which God gave the old covenant prophets glimpses of.

The old covenant centered around literal Israel, and the literal nations around her, and the struggles between the same.  The new covenant centers around spiritual Israel, and all the nations of the earth in relation to the same.  The blessings that were once upon literal Israel are now opened up to all of every nation, language, and people who accept Christ as their Savior and King, spiritual Israel.  Their commission is to bring the gospel to all the world, and then the end shall come.  Their battle is no longer literal against literal nations, but against the spiritual deceptions and principalities of this world.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These are the things the new covenant prophecies deal with, of which, much of the old covenant prophecies were merely types and shadows.  Though not all.  Yet still, some of the local and literal prophecies of the old testament, were also types and shadows of the larger global and universal prophecies of the new covenant era.



 


Offline Corbley

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 02:03:49 »
Those who believe that Christ returned in 70ad.....Please explain how the following prophecies had taken place..
The Euphraties river drying up and and Army of 200 million march along.
(Today the Euphraties has a Dam and China has a military (reserve) totalling more than 125million....combined with other nations from Asia there could easily be an Army of 200 million)   There was not even 200 million people in Asia in 70 ad

Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 08:40:46 »
by Corbley,
Quote
Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now

Corbley, these statements are a concern. You know, i hope & pray God will help you to close your mind on certain things. An "end of the world" mindset can be dangerous.

I answered your question about the # 200 million being a hyperbole for effect.  And the Euphrates "dried up" just meaning figuratively that the armies or those tributaries of Rome (who hadn't received a kingdom yet) would find easy passage anyway, despite the rivers- to get to Israel, during the war.

And on the other thread, you keep calling rezar a "he" when i & others have pointed out that simple error- yet you continue to post as if you aren't in touch.

I pray you will lean toward reality & preterism- where non-fiction is the answer- in & to & from the prophecies.  Now & later!




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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 08:40:46 »
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Offline Corbley

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 14:58:24 »
by Corbley,
Quote
Next try to explain a world government.....The Roman Empire did not rule the world (just a large part of it)

Can't you people see with your own eyes....Events described in the bible are coming to pass before your eyes.  OPEN them
Stop closing your mind that Gods infinate Grace has delayed Daniels 70th week untill now

Corbley, these statements are a concern. You know, i hope & pray God will help you to close your mind on certain things. An "end of the world" mindset can be dangerous.

I answered your question about the # 200 million being a hyperbole for effect.  And the Euphrates "dried up" just meaning figuratively that the armies or those tributaries of Rome (who hadn't received a kingdom yet) would find easy passage anyway, despite the rivers- to get to Israel, during the war.

And on the other thread, you keep calling rezar a "he" when i & others have pointed out that simple error- yet you continue to post as if you aren't in touch.

I pray you will lean toward reality & preterism- where non-fiction is the answer- in & to & from the prophecies.  Now & later!




You have explained nothing except what you believe to be true...I do not share that belief

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 14:58:24 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #40 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:44:13 »
Preterist have a cinch explanation for everything. If something is in scriptue they can"t explain, they "spiritualize" it and say it means such and such other than what it clearly says. Handy, huh?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #41 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:47:03 »
Somehow to a preterist, the prophecies of Christ's first coming are literal, but the one's about his second coming are symbolic of something else.

**edited for spelling**
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 15:34:46 by Jaime »

k-pappy

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 20:40:01 »
Yea, I noticed the same thing, Jaime!

In Christ,
KP

Offline Firewing

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #43 on: Mon Oct 26, 2009 - 22:48:38 »
I don't think Christ has returned to take his followers to heaven yet.

The Bible speaks that he will come "like a thief in the night"..We won't really know when.

But think of this: If he did come to take his followers, wouldn't we know *after* he came?.  It all depends on how he takes his followers.  Does he take the soul? or the soul and body?.

If he took the soul and body, we would have heard news stories from across the planet about large amounts of missing people.  We would also hear about massive amounts accidents happening like on highways or streets (If the follower was driving and he was taken in the middle of that).

If Jesus just took the soul, and left the body on earth, we'd be hearing numerous news reports about people collapsing during their work day, or driving and causing an accident. 

Unless Jesus does this in a very clean fashion - by taking souls up to heaven when that person is at home, safe, and sleeping so there wouldn't be accidents or stuff like that.


Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #44 on: Mon Oct 26, 2009 - 23:14:29 »
Quote
Christ Has Returned Already?

No.

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #45 on: Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 09:57:41 »

Of course He did, just as He told His apostles & disciples. They knew the signs to look for- however, most of the apostles would be killed before Christ's return, at the end of the age. Christ intimated that John would "tarry till I come."  This is probably why 3 of the synoptic Gospels speak of the Olivet discourse- whereas the Gospel of John is silent.
We believe his Olivet discourse is shown & fulfilled in the Revelation- God, who knew the day & hour, gave Jesus & signified it through an angel to John.

Rev.14 depicts the Son of man on a cloud. In Mt.13:36-43, Jesus explained his parable of the wheat & tares. Concerning the time of the harvest he said, "the harvest is at the end of this age." (sunteleia tou aionos)
The Jews believed in 2 ages, "this age" & "the age to come." What's important in the N.T., the writers, especially Paul, show us the concept of the new creation, which of course is the determinative goal of the Apocalypse.
Author Longenecker states, "This eschatological perspective has to do first and foremost with the triumph of God that is taking effect in the establishment of a new world. It is a world where matters of circumcision and uncircumcision are irrelevant."
IOWs, for Paul, & thus for John, the new creation that was being anticipated had to do with the covenant change between the Old Covenant world of Israel, & the New Covenant world of Christ.
In Mt.13, Jesus didn't say, "the harvest is at the end of the age to come."
According to the Jews there was "this age" & the "age to come."
The pre-Messianic age & the Messianic age.
One futurist author i'll note said of Mt.13  & Jesus' prediction of the end of the age- "This could only be the Messianic age."  We preterists bring light to this - as that statement presents many problems for the futurist-
Jesus was living in the Mosaic Age (Gal4:4), which did not end until the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. In fact, the Mosaic Age was the only age predicted to end. The Christian age began & overlapped in the 1st century- but the Christian Age is the "age without end in Ephesians 3:20-21.
Thus you can begin to see the hype & suppositions surrounding erroneous thinking about a literal end of our world!

Christ returned in the clouds over Jerusalem. He fulfilled "all that was written." (Luke 21:20-22)

Tradition today just missed the "nature" of His coming.  All that was prophesied to "soon take place" - took place! 
Jesus shows us He was not a false prophet. ( Deut 18:22)

Praise God. He reigns!

Offline fish153

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 14:37:25 »
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses.  Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.


Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 20:59:16 »
Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses. 
First, Christ would return in the clouds- the same as Acts 1. And the nature of Christ's coming is being hotly debated, at last. Did Christ predict a return in a literal fleshly body. Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth, yet, this essential truth is greatly ignored by most Bible students today.
The preterist view of prophecy is growing rapidly, across all denominational boundaries. The problem of the NT. time statements of the nearness of the end is unraveling in light of a better understanding of the nature of Christ's parousia (presence). In short, Jesus did not promise to come back in a physical body! He promised to come as the Father had come, and that precludes a visible, bodily coming!
Quote
Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).
Right back at ya. See the reference of the scoffers & Judaizers by Peter below.
Quote
Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.
Yep, and a thousand years is as one day too. And if you took the literal approach, the thousand years would have ended in the 11th century AD. Oh which btw, many Christians sold everything they had thinking the Lord was coming in the 11th century!
Ha! A really bad false prediction, of course.

The scoffers were bothering Peter saying, since the fathers all things have gone on the same" & he responds that it escapes their notice. It is easily seen in the context (when u aren't trying to prove anything) that the writer is saying just bc 1500 yrs. in coming, does not mean that the promise that is being fulfilled in our day (the intended audience) is taking forever...judgment has come...repent!


ex cathedra

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 23:01:29 »
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.




Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 

« Last Edit: Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 23:26:33 by ex cathedra »

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #49 on: Wed Oct 28, 2009 - 08:41:29 »
John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Quote

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


Quote

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.




Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 



I refused to be shocked by how you twisted God's word to make absolutely no sense.
Nothing could be further from the truth than the timing in your post.
God can tell time, friend- you just need to renew your mind & thinking when reading His time statements.

Mt.12:38-41,
  
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 28, 2009 - 13:36:19 by rezar »

Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #50 on: Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 10:16:05 »
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR


Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 11:21:43 »
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?


I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,
LR

Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!
It's like i waited 19 months to hear such a refreshing interpretation from a newbie! ::clappingoverhead::
 Ok, i'm calm now....
See, i believe when Jesus told he apostles He would return, & receive them to Himself-
i see most of the apostles being dead at that time & Jesus "returning & receiving us to Himself" means seeing Him in heaven. For the apostles, they would have the H.S. until the prized possession (them, the church) was received up to God. Because they were "His" at his coming. Christ the firstfruits, then those who were His church (& were deceased) would be raised to heaven. And then, "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." (Rev.14:13)

Since the, when hades was destroyed, we all go directly to heaven.

Good post LR!


Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Oct 29, 2009 - 14:33:16 »
Hi rezar,

Quote
Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!


I haven't read a lot of posts yet so I don't how things go here or who thinks what. BUT I'm glad I found somebody that sees some things as I do. At the same time, I hope I don't offend others who think differently from what I do.

Hopefully, I will find some time in the next days to respond to some of these threads. I've noticed some that appear interesting.

Thanks for the response, rezar

LR

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 10:29:49 »
are u saying the anti christ  has reurned already at the un?

No, the question is, has Christ returned? The answer to that is in the Bible.

You imagining antichrists is folly. 

Mature Christians , even the Heathen, are wiser than such childish fantasies. ::smile::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:14:23 »
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR
That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:25:39 »
Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.
Quote
And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR
That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.
And you didn't answer my question to ya from reply #6 to your question.



Offline Eccl12:13

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:37:00 »

Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth


And there is lies your problem.  You think the one that was in the OT was the Father, when in fact it was Jesus Christ.

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

Man has NEVER seen the Father.

Man has NEVER heard the Father.

Man has NEVER had ANY dealings with the FATHER....EVER!

The ONLY one we have ever known is Jesus Christ!


And yes I can prove it with scriptures!



.




Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 15:38:26 »

Here's another Preterist study for your consideration on Christ's "return"
                              http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=50&a=1798

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #58 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 16:20:58 »
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.
Consider even one instance:
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. (Deut.4:11-14)

And it is like Paul says it was- hidden in ages past- but in the overlap of the prior dispensation of the law & the age of the Messiah - which Paul says was in his days being revealed. Paul was one of the "sons of the Resurrection" any way.
Col.1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


The Lord had cloud comings before. (Isa.19:1) Sometimes God is seen in the fire. (Father God is Spirit) Sometimes God was in the fire in the clouds.

Hebrews makes it known that the saints on earth had spiritually reached "perfection" in CHRIST, as to be like the faithful dead on God's holy Mt. Zion in heaven.

Offline Eccl12:13

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #59 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 20:05:00 »
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.


Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



.






Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #60 on: Thu Nov 05, 2009 - 21:45:20 »
by Eccl.12:13,
Quote
The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.


Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



.







Israel saw the Messiah once He had come. The remnant at least. But that is not what is in question here. We are not discussing God's divinity. We are asking whether the Son of man returned in some way above the clouds in Jerusalem.

k-pappy

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 12:53:54 »
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #62 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 16:03:38 »
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?


k-pappy

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #63 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 18:52:50 »
And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?

Not at all.  When Jesus came He completed His Father's plan for salvation.  When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).

In Christ,
KP

Offline Lame Ranger

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 20:18:11 »
Hi k-pappy

Quote
That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR

Offline rezar

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 20:28:38 »
by kp,
Quote
When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).
I can't even imagine what you are talking about there. And what does Jesus say He would be doing for us when He returned?
One scripture states He will appear "second time" (in Heb.) not for sin, but for "salvation." Like Noah & his family & the Flood,  the remnant would be saved from the wrath of the Roman/Jewish war.  This is already recorded in secular history. You miss the nature of His coming in the scriptures. I don't envy that. And of course the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. It wasn't suppose to subsist in the material realm. The Jews of Jesus' day thought the kingdom would continue to be a national one, but God terminated His theocratic relationship with Israel. And that was the end of the age. Not the world. Surely you can see the difference between "world" & "age" even in the Greek.
Aionos is an age . No serious Bible student sees this as meaning the end of the world.
Mt.13:37-43,
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom (old covenant Jews) all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. (great tribulation) There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Christianity won the day.

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.  ::amen!::

Difference is- I know how the age ended-  & seems some are still waiting to find out.   That gives Preterists a whole lotta time for other projects, especially not being deceived into thinking the world is going to end & Jesus will burst through the sky. This isn't a Batman movie.

Are you seriously that unrealistic?

k-pappy

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Nov 06, 2009 - 21:15:03 »
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so. 

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP

Offline freeman4

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #67 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:05:46 »
It does not really matter what is said about this subject because one is going to believe what one wants to believe anyway. If there is a God it will make a difference and if there is no God it will make no difference at all. But let us suppose that there is God and that He created all things and He put all things in motion.

Now, let us suppose that He has a plan that He is working out and that plan has been in place from the beginning of man kind. Of course we are just supposing. Now let us suppose that as mere human beings that we cannot comprehend the beginning of nothing and at that time there were only God beings. Now we are only supposing. Now let us suppose that the God beings decided that they wanted to play around with the notion of creating all things that are in existence. And let us suppose that they created the Universe and all that exist in it.

Now, let us suppose that they wanted to create a being called man and they said let us make man in our ( this God head ) Image. Again, we are just supposing. Let us suppose that if those God beings were to manifest themselves that they would look like a human being.

Now let us suppose that one of those God beings was eventually born physical and became known as Jesus Christ. Now let us realize that this was  a physical state and not Spiritual.

Now let us suppose that this Jesus Christ was crucified and was resurrected from the dead to a Spiritual state. Now, let us suppose that this was the First coming of Jesus Christ. The first time in a Spiritual manner.

Now, one can suppose all of this he wants but if one does not have Gods spirit dwelling in them then all of this will not make any difference at all to them. 

       “HEAVEN HERE ON EARTH

Amo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #68 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:25:47 »
Quote
I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.




Amo

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Re: Christ Has Returned Already?
« Reply #69 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 08:35:52 »
Quote
It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.  Amen!

Reformation1 has never ended.  Even if most have rejected it, including yourself, since you have rejected what all the reformers believed concerning biblical prophecy.  What you believe has nothing to do with the reformation, as I have already informed you, it is all about the counter-reformation of the Church of Rome.

II. Two Conflicting Alternatives Brought Forth

Rome’s answer to the Protestant Reformation was twofold, though actually conflicting and contradictory.  Through the Jesuits Ribera, of Salamanca, Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome, the Papacy put forth her Futurist interpretation.  And through Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, she advanced almost simultaneously the conflicting Preterist interpretation.  These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants.  Though mutually exclusive, either Jesuit alternative suited the great objective equally well, as both thrust aside the application of the prophecies from the existing Church of Rome.  The one accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome’s career.  The other achieved it by making it overlap the immense era of papal dominance, crowding Antichrist into a small fragment of time in the still distant future, just before the great consummation.  It is consequently often called the gap theory.

According to the Protestants, the vision of Babylon and the supporting Beast is divinely interpreted in chapter 17 of the Apocalypse.  It was on this that the Reformers commonly rested their case - the apostate woman, the Roman church: the city, seven hilled Rome; the many waters, the many peoples; the Beast, the fourth, or Roman, beast of Daniel: the sixth head, the Caesars; and the seventh, the popes.  Concerning the two alternatives, presented by Ribera and Alcazar, consigning Antichrist either to the remote past or future, Joseph Tanner, the Protestant writer, gives this record:

“Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.  The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavoured to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.  On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.  Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Riberas, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.