Christ Has Returned Already?

[rezar]

Of course He did, just as He told His apostles & disciples. They knew the signs to look for- however, most of the apostles would be killed before Christ's return, at the end of the age. Christ intimated that John would "tarry till I come."  This is probably why 3 of the synoptic Gospels speak of the Olivet discourse- whereas the Gospel of John is silent.
We believe his Olivet discourse is shown & fulfilled in the Revelation- God, who knew the day & hour, gave Jesus & signified it through an angel to John.

Rev.14 depicts the Son of man on a cloud. In Mt.13:36-43, Jesus explained his parable of the wheat & tares. Concerning the time of the harvest he said, "the harvest is at the end of this age." (sunteleia tou aionos)
The Jews believed in 2 ages, "this age" & "the age to come." What's important in the N.T., the writers, especially Paul, show us the concept of the new creation, which of course is the determinative goal of the Apocalypse.
Author Longenecker states, "This eschatological perspective has to do first and foremost with the triumph of God that is taking effect in the establishment of a new world. It is a world where matters of circumcision and uncircumcision are irrelevant."
IOWs, for Paul, & thus for John, the new creation that was being anticipated had to do with the covenant change between the Old Covenant world of Israel, & the New Covenant world of Christ.
In Mt.13, Jesus didn't say, "the harvest is at the end of the age to come."
According to the Jews there was "this age" & the "age to come."
The pre-Messianic age & the Messianic age.
One futurist author i'll note said of Mt.13  & Jesus' prediction of the end of the age- "This could only be the Messianic age."  We preterists bring light to this - as that statement presents many problems for the futurist-
Jesus was living in the Mosaic Age (Gal4:4), which did not end until the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. In fact, the Mosaic Age was the only age predicted to end. The Christian age began & overlapped in the 1st century- but the Christian Age is the "age without end in Ephesians 3:20-21.
Thus you can begin to see the hype & suppositions surrounding erroneous thinking about a literal end of our world!

Christ returned in the clouds over Jerusalem. He fulfilled "all that was written." (Luke 21:20-22)

Tradition today just missed the "nature" of His coming.  All that was prophesied to "soon take place" - took place! 
Jesus shows us He was not a false prophet. ( Deut 18:22)

Praise God. He reigns!

[fish153]

Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses.  Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.

[rezar]

Christ has not returned already.  The angels told the disciples that he "would return the same way he left", meaning he would physically return in full view of many witnesses. 

First, Christ would return in the clouds- the same as Acts 1. And the nature of Christ's coming is being hotly debated, at last. Did Christ predict a return in a literal fleshly body. Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth, yet, this essential truth is greatly ignored by most Bible students today.
The preterist view of prophecy is growing rapidly, across all denominational boundaries. The problem of the NT. time statements of the nearness of the end is unraveling in light of a better understanding of the nature of Christ's parousia (presence). In short, Jesus did not promise to come back in a physical body! He promised to come as the Father had come, and that precludes a visible, bodily coming!

Those who say he secretly returned or has returned already are teaching false doctrine, just as those in Paul's day did (read 1 Thessalonians).

Right back at ya. See the reference of the scoffers & Judaizers by Peter below.

Peter even mentions the last days when scoffers will come saying "where is the promise of his coming"?  He reminds us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.  He is obviously stating that a good amount of time will pass before Christ comes (to us 2000 years is a very long time---to God it is only two days!!).  Peter would not have gone to the trouble of stating that if Christ had already returned, or was going to return before future readers of his epistle had a chance to read it.

Yep, and a thousand years is as one day too. And if you took the literal approach, the thousand years would have ended in the 11th century AD. Oh which btw, many Christians sold everything they had thinking the Lord was coming in the 11th century!
Ha! A really bad false prediction, of course.

The scoffers were bothering Peter saying, since the fathers all things have gone on the same" & he responds that it escapes their notice. It is easily seen in the context (when u aren't trying to prove anything) that the writer is saying just bc 1500 yrs. in coming, does not mean that the promise that is being fulfilled in our day (the intended audience) is taking forever...judgment has come...repent!

[ex cathedra]

John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.

Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 

[rezar]

John says the things he saw in Revelation would happen 'soon'...  soon is not 2000 years.

Jesus said all the things that would happen would do so during the generation of the then living... they are all dead.

Revelation 1 (English Standard Version)

Revelation 1
Prologue
 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place.(C) He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to(E) the testimony of Jesus Christ, even(F) to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Mark 13

28"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

I know you refuse to believe the truth.. but its plain as day in the scriptures.  What you believe and put your hopes in has already occured... or you are calling Christ and the Holy Spirit liars.

Tantor
the Generation that would not pass away before these things happened is the generation of believers in Jesus  and unbelievers in Jesus  . They have not passed away they are still here to day. this generation of people are still marrying and will continue to marry right up to the time of Jesus coming.

Jesus is coming soon . a measurment in time  of the exact absolutly most perfect soon time for Jesus to come again.

 

if you perfer to think of soon in a less perfect way though God does every thing perfect. .Its only been two thousand years  . When God anounced to adam and eve the first promise of their savior  to come .

how many years after was Jesus born ?     5000.
 

I refused to be shocked by how you twisted God's word to make absolutely no sense.
Nothing could be further from the truth than the timing in your post.
God can tell time, friend- you just need to renew your mind & thinking when reading His time statements.

Mt.12:38-41,
  
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

Mt.23:28-36,
28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Oh, there's much more.  But these passages alone disprove ex cathedra's time statements.

Thank you Lord!

PPS-
 And why should they marry & be given in marriage as the time drew near towards the great tribulation on the Jews?
Obviously, some would not escape. The unbelieving Jews would be caught in the worst time ever the Jews would ever experience when they would no longer be God's chosen people. The theocracy would end. All Jewish genealogies would end with Christ's generation.
Josephus reports of women eating their own babies in the siege, bc of the famine. (Rev.6)
I think too it was wise advice not to marry bc  great wrath was coming on the Jews.

If one reads the history before they make up an imaginary future- they gain knowledge & wisdom.

And most likely will be able to interpret prophecy better.

[Lame Ranger]

Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.

And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR

[rezar]

Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.

And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,
LR

Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!
It's like i waited 19 months to hear such a refreshing interpretation from a newbie!
 Ok, i'm calm now....
See, i believe when Jesus told he apostles He would return, & receive them to Himself-
i see most of the apostles being dead at that time & Jesus "returning & receiving us to Himself" means seeing Him in heaven. For the apostles, they would have the H.S. until the prized possession (them, the church) was received up to God. Because they were "His" at his coming. Christ the firstfruits, then those who were His church (& were deceased) would be raised to heaven. And then, "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." (Rev.14:13)

Since the, when hades was destroyed, we all go directly to heaven.

Good post LR!

[Lame Ranger]

Hi rezar,

Oh, somebody slap me, that was excellent!  We are on the same page- eschatologically too brother!

I haven't read a lot of posts yet so I don't how things go here or who thinks what. BUT I'm glad I found somebody that sees some things as I do. At the same time, I hope I don't offend others who think differently from what I do.

Hopefully, I will find some time in the next days to respond to some of these threads. I've noticed some that appear interesting.

Thanks for the response, rezar

LR

[rezar]

are u saying the anti christ  has reurned already at the un?

No, the question is, has Christ returned? The answer to that is in the Bible.

You imagining antichrists is folly. 

Mature Christians , even the Heathen, are wiser than such childish fantasies.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.

And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR

That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.

[rezar]

Hi forum,

I just registered to your forum and I read this post form Wycliffe early in the thread.

And how does this account for those who believe that He did come, and that He will come again?

I wanted to add my 2 cents concerning that as it is what I consider the meaning to be.

 I would see the second coming as being at the time of people's personal death. I understand this procedure to have had it's beginning back in 70 AD. Prior to that, the las trump, it was necessary to sleep in the dust and await the resurrection of the dead, which also took place in 70Ad or there-abouts.

After that great tribulation which I consider to be the rebellion of Judea from 66-70 AD, there would have been a return of Jesus in the spiritual realm to those killed in that rebellion. Those would be the ones who died at the time of the wrath of God. In other words, the vipers of THIS generation that Jesus talked to in Matthew 23.

So I consider that to the first ever second coming experience for those who died at that time. Since then the second coming is at each of our personal death. One second coming per person, every eye would SEE Him and the judgment would be made known to us after our death as per Hebrews 9.

So I just wanted to throw my vote into the mix. Thanks for reading this, take care,

LR

That wasn't quite what I meant, but welcome to the forum anyway.

And you didn't answer my question to ya from reply #6 to your question.

[Eccl12:13]

Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth

And there is lies your problem.  You think the one that was in the OT was the Father, when in fact it was Jesus Christ.

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

Man has NEVER seen the Father.

Man has NEVER heard the Father.

Man has NEVER had ANY dealings with the FATHER....EVER!

The ONLY one we have ever known is Jesus Christ!


And yes I can prove it with scriptures!



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[rezar]

Here's another Preterist study for your consideration on Christ's "return"
                              http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=50&a=1798

[rezar]

by Eccl.12:13,

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.
Consider even one instance:
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. (Deut.4:11-14)

And it is like Paul says it was- hidden in ages past- but in the overlap of the prior dispensation of the law & the age of the Messiah - which Paul says was in his days being revealed. Paul was one of the "sons of the Resurrection" any way.
Col.1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


The Lord had cloud comings before. (Isa.19:1) Sometimes God is seen in the fire. (Father God is Spirit) Sometimes God was in the fire in the clouds.

Hebrews makes it known that the saints on earth had spiritually reached "perfection" in CHRIST, as to be like the faithful dead on God's holy Mt. Zion in heaven.

[Eccl12:13]

by Eccl.12:13,

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.

Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



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