Christ Has Returned Already?

[rezar]

by Eccl.12:13,

The Father has NEVER made himself known to man, other than in the image of his son.

That is not a true statement. In fact, in the O.T. the opposite was true.

Like I said, there in lies your problem.  That was not God the Father in the OT.  It was Jesus!

St. John 5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.  Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

How simple is "not that ANY man hath seen the Father"?



.

Israel saw the Messiah once He had come. The remnant at least. But that is not what is in question here. We are not discussing God's divinity. We are asking whether the Son of man returned in some way above the clouds in Jerusalem.

[BondServant]

And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

[rezar]

And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?

[BondServant]

And He has not.

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I know you will never change your mind, and that is ok.  Unlike you, I have no problem with you for not sharing my beliefs.

In Christ,
KP

By saying He would return to earth physically means that Jesus must've failed the 1st time. Why wasn't His mission a success the first time then?

Not at all.  When Jesus came He completed His Father's plan for salvation.  When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).

In Christ,
KP

[Lame Ranger]

Hi k-pappy

That's what I do not understand about your position.  The Bible clearly says Jesus will return physically, yet you continue to claim it "means" spiritually.

I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR

[rezar]

by kp,

When He returns He will gather His people (those of us who are saved...through what He did when He came).

I can't even imagine what you are talking about there. And what does Jesus say He would be doing for us when He returned?
One scripture states He will appear "second time" (in Heb.) not for sin, but for "salvation." Like Noah & his family & the Flood,  the remnant would be saved from the wrath of the Roman/Jewish war.  This is already recorded in secular history. You miss the nature of His coming in the scriptures. I don't envy that. And of course the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. It wasn't suppose to subsist in the material realm. The Jews of Jesus' day thought the kingdom would continue to be a national one, but God terminated His theocratic relationship with Israel. And that was the end of the age. Not the world. Surely you can see the difference between "world" & "age" even in the Greek.
Aionos is an age . No serious Bible student sees this as meaning the end of the world.
Mt.13:37-43,
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom (old covenant Jews) all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. (great tribulation) There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Christianity won the day.

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2. 

Difference is- I know how the age ended-  & seems some are still waiting to find out.   That gives Preterists a whole lotta time for other projects, especially not being deceived into thinking the world is going to end & Jesus will burst through the sky. This isn't a Batman movie.

Are you seriously that unrealistic?

[BondServant]

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so. 

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP

[freeman4]

It does not really matter what is said about this subject because one is going to believe what one wants to believe anyway. If there is a God it will make a difference and if there is no God it will make no difference at all. But let us suppose that there is God and that He created all things and He put all things in motion.

Now, let us suppose that He has a plan that He is working out and that plan has been in place from the beginning of man kind. Of course we are just supposing. Now let us suppose that as mere human beings that we cannot comprehend the beginning of nothing and at that time there were only God beings. Now we are only supposing. Now let us suppose that the God beings decided that they wanted to play around with the notion of creating all things that are in existence. And let us suppose that they created the Universe and all that exist in it.

Now, let us suppose that they wanted to create a being called man and they said let us make man in our ( this God head ) Image. Again, we are just supposing. Let us suppose that if those God beings were to manifest themselves that they would look like a human being.

Now let us suppose that one of those God beings was eventually born physical and became known as Jesus Christ. Now let us realize that this was  a physical state and not Spiritual.

Now let us suppose that this Jesus Christ was crucified and was resurrected from the dead to a Spiritual state. Now, let us suppose that this was the First coming of Jesus Christ. The first time in a Spiritual manner.

Now, one can suppose all of this he wants but if one does not have Gods spirit dwelling in them then all of this will not make any difference at all to them. 

       “HEAVEN HERE ON EARTH”

 

 

The promise from God Almighty is that He will set up His Kingdom here on this Earth for 1000 years. Although this is not God’s Government and Kingdom at this time, it will be in a very few short years.

 

Notice Acts Ch 3: 20-21;

 

20; 21; “And that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you, before whom Heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things which  God has spoken by the mouth of all Holy Prophets since the World began”.

 

 Now Acts 15: 16; 17;

 

16; “After this I will return and will rebuild the Tabernacle of David which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and will set it up; so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even the Gentiles who are called by my name says the Lord who does all things”.

 

Jesus Christ said that He Himself would return to this Earth to set up His Fathers Kingdom. What is wrong with that?

 

 

Jesus prayed, “Your Kingdom come” (Matthew 6:10 ;), and it was noted of Joseph of Arimathaea, whom himself was also waiting for the “Kingdom of God” (Luke 23:51 ;) In the Acts of the Apostle’s it is said many times that they, “preached the things concerning the Kingdom of God”. (Acts 8:12, 12:8, 20:25, 28:23)

 

If God’s Kingdom is this important to our faith then surely it demands our attention if we are to be true disciples. Jesus said, “Seek first The Kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you”. (Matthew 6:33 ;)

 

Yes, we need to truly understand that the promise of Heaven is here on this Earth, where Jesus Christ will set up His Fathers Government, His World Ruling Government and those to whom are His chosen will help in running and ruling in this Government process.

 

Our Father in Heaven will not use individuals in helping rule and reign in His Kingdom who do not understand the principles of this soon coming Government of God.

 

In Matthew ch19: 28, 29, 30 we read-

 

 28; “(Jesus speaking) I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of man sits on His Glorious Throne, you who have followed me will also sit on Twelve Thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel”.

 

 29; “And everyone who has left his brothers and sisters or fathers or mothers or children of the field for My sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit Eternal Life”.

 

 

What Jesus is saying in verse 29 is that those who truly follow him will be ridiculed and disowned by family members and friends, that is the price of being a True Christians.

 

 

30; “But many who are the first will be the last and many who are the last will be the first”.

 

 What this is saying is those who believe that they may be doing what God has commanded, may not be doing so and may very well end up being at the end of all things. Jesus Christ said that there would be those that would be the least in the Kingdom of God. They would be in the Kingdom of God but their reward would not be as they had expected it should be.

 

Notice Matthew ch 5; 19;

 

 19; “Anyone who breaks one of the least of the Commandments and shall teach others to do the same will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whosoever practices and teaches these Commandments will be called great in the Kingdom of God

 

God’s Kingdom with the added advantage of ‘authority’ will be established when Jesus Christ returns, “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet”. 1Corinthians 15:25

 

 Speaking of King Jesus, the prophet Jeremiah said: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of Righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the Earth. In His days Judah will be saved, now this is the name by which He will be called, the Lord of our righteousness”. (Jeremiah 23; 5-6) 

 

The saints will help Him do this here on this Earth.

 

Now to revelation ch 20; 4, 5, 6,

 

 4; “(N.I.V) I saw Thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to Judge. And I saw the Souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped The Beast (this world government authority) or his image and had not received His Mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years”.

 

 5; “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the Thousand years were ended, this is the first resurrection”.

 

Those are the individuals that did not know Jesus Christ; they will be given a chance to accept Him at the end of the thousand years.

 

 6; “Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the First Resurrection, The second death has no power over them, but they will be Priest of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a Thousand Years”.

 

 

When Jesus Christ does return He will establish His Father’s Government here on this Earth. Those who are His Chosen will help in Reigning and Ruling on this Earth for one thousand years. At the end of the thousand years, the rest of the dead, those to whom have not accepted Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will have the opportunity to also be His Son’s and Daughters. Then those who do not accept will be put in Hell Fire and will be burned up. They will die the second Death but will not burn for ever and ever

 

I cannot even start to explain what God has in store for the Saints after the Thousand Years for it is mind boggling and is something that includes the whole Universe.

 

I pray that God will open you mind to understand and get really right with God so you to will help in ruling this World with our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Amo]

I'm in that group who feels that Jesus returns spiritually as well. It seems to be somewhat difficult to even get a clear definition of what physical bodies and spiritual bodies are. To describe the spiritually bodied person I always use the phrase, 'invisible to mortals.' I feel that when Jesus returned in 70 AD He was invisible to mortals.

LR

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[Amo]

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.  Amen!

Reformation1 has never ended.  Even if most have rejected it, including yourself, since you have rejected what all the reformers believed concerning biblical prophecy.  What you believe has nothing to do with the reformation, as I have already informed you, it is all about the counter-reformation of the Church of Rome.

II. Two Conflicting Alternatives Brought Forth

Rome’s answer to the Protestant Reformation was twofold, though actually conflicting and contradictory.  Through the Jesuits Ribera, of Salamanca, Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome, the Papacy put forth her Futurist interpretation.  And through Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, she advanced almost simultaneously the conflicting Preterist interpretation.  These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants.  Though mutually exclusive, either Jesuit alternative suited the great objective equally well, as both thrust aside the application of the prophecies from the existing Church of Rome.  The one accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome’s career.  The other achieved it by making it overlap the immense era of papal dominance, crowding Antichrist into a small fragment of time in the still distant future, just before the great consummation.  It is consequently often called the gap theory.

According to the Protestants, the vision of Babylon and the supporting Beast is divinely interpreted in chapter 17 of the Apocalypse.  It was on this that the Reformers commonly rested their case - the apostate woman, the Roman church: the city, seven hilled Rome; the many waters, the many peoples; the Beast, the fourth, or Roman, beast of Daniel: the sixth head, the Caesars; and the seventh, the popes.  Concerning the two alternatives, presented by Ribera and Alcazar, consigning Antichrist either to the remote past or future, Joseph Tanner, the Protestant writer, gives this record:

“Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.  The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavoured to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.  On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.  Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Riberas, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.”

Roman Catholics as well as Protestants agree as to the origin of these interpretations.  Thus the roman Catholic writer G. S. Hitchcock says:

“The Futurist School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation.”
“The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A.D.” 

Similarly, Dean Henry Alford (Protestant), in the “Prolegomena” to his Greek Testament, declares:

“The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times…..appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580.”
“The Praeterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of, in the times of primitive Christianity…..The view is said to have been first promulgated in anything like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar….in 1614.’

E. B. Elliot states precisely the same fact, only assigning slightly different dates; and many others, such as Dr. Candish, of Edinbugh, support the charges.  Thus the fact is established.(The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol.II, Chap.22, pgs. 486&487, LE ROY EDWIN FROOM.)

[rezar]

It's as simple as that, kp, yet you seem to ignore history. I don't think you have read Josephus' works. One is just fooling oneself by denying history. Josephus saw angelic armies over the skies. So even literally, you are proved that Christ returned. You can deny the scripture all you want, but it has proved you wrong. Nothing past 70AD was prophesied. You are not the 1st generation to say Christ was coming to them. You have failed every time - bc it took place already. Wake up to the 21st century. Preterism is the Reformation2.

That is a false claim.  I have been asking for you to show me, from history, that all of Jesus' predictions have come to pass....you have failed to do so.  

Show me, from history, and I will change my mind.  Change the meaning of God's Word and I'll stick with what It actually says, not what you say it means.

In Christ,
KP

You keep saying "show me" & when you are shown even one verse or an article to further explain all the reasoning that backs it, you just act like i never gave an explanation. - when i have been slowly but surely explaining Preterism for 1 1/2 yrs. in the "theology" section. I have only seen your posts of recently, with the new sub-forum created for "end-times." I have been sharing my knowledge of Biblical eschatology all along for a good 19 months here.
[More Christian forums are opening up & stating "preterist views welcome" So, that is a trend in a positive direction now too. All views should be made available as we search for the Truth in & of God's word.]
I will continue to do so, with God's help & those with an open mind will actually read it. But when one has not read of historical fulfillment or hears something not "orthodoxy" some will rebel for a time, until the wiser, more serious student personally realizes they are fooling themselves about the timing Jesus gave & God gave in Scripture.

What did Malachi say about the Jews when Jesus came? His prophecy is not about "Christians" in name or about the end of the church age. This age never ends! His kingdom never ends!
Mal4:5-6,

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
      Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
       6 And he will turn
      The hearts of the fathers to the children,
      And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
      Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

First of all, with that passage- was ELIJAH the prophet going to actually & LITERALLY be Elijah? NO! It would be John the Baptist, acting in the spirit of Elijah.
And what's "the earth" in that verse? It's the "land" of Israel. And it is a no-brainer to see with spiritual eyes!

When did Jesus say He would (approx) return? And WHO is He talking to? You, or the Apostles? Ok, ready to read with an open mind? In this passage, Jesus is speking to the Apostles. Not to you & i.  To the Apostles directly:
Persecutions Are Coming
   
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Mt.10:16-23)

When did Jesus say He "came to bring fire on the earth?" He was the chief cornerstone that made for a rising & falling of the great in Israel. Why, bc of the New Covenant in Christ. God was "creating a new man out of the 2" Israel & the Gentiles. And would call the remnant (of Israel by another name, along with the Gentiles. What's the possible name? New Jerusalem or Christians! (Isa.65-66)

So, you read Mt.10:16-23? Ok. Now, doesn't Jesus make sense to you as far as telling James & co. about what would happen in their generation?


And for our new friend who commented in between-
 Jesus was offered to be a king on an earthly thrown, but turned it down (Jn.6:15) the 1st time.  It was considered from the beginning, a rebellion against God. (1Sam.8:5-8;10:19;12:17)

So, Jesus obviously would NEVER rebel against the Father. He entered upon His eternal thrown in heaven. It's spiritual. God is perfectly capable of judging good from evil- from heaven, which He does everyday ...........

[Bocephus]

Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!

[Lame Ranger]

HI Amo

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR

[Amo]

Those, among a others, are  verses I use to illustrate that Jesus return is invisible to mortals.

It states that every eye will see Jesus return. Then it says that AT THAT TIME, meaning at the time of the great ribulation/parousia, if ANYBODY says anything about seeing Jesus it will not be true.
The only possible way that both of those statements can be true at the sam time is if the people who's eye SEES Jesus are dead at the time they see Him.
That puts thing in the realm of the spiritual afterlife. The world of the dead. That is backed by Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

LR

I guess if I were determined to be a Preterist also, I would have no choice but to believe the same.

[rezar]

Those that believe Jesus returned already say:

The third time's the charm!

Well, i don't. I usually have to admit that about my marriage though. Not proud of being a former "real good sinner"  But then, Jesus does forgive & forget our previous ignorance. Praise God!

3 times a charm! Married 24 yrs.  It's a charm alright, lol!  Well of course it is, compared to the former!

I wait on the Lord daily, or monthly or even hourly sometimes. He answers prayers & manifests Himself to us.

Last time i called on Him - He did swat the hurricane on the radar from hitting my city directly & broke it up into pieces- I watched the Lord's power happen right on the radar map!
Praise God!

Faith happens!