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daq

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The Stars of Heaven
« on: Mon Apr 11, 2011 - 17:25:06 »
Genesis 15:1-6
1. After these things the Word of YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, 'Adonay YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the Word of YHWH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in The YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


The seed of Abram would be as the telling of the stars for number.

Genesis 22:15-18
15. And the Mal'ak of YHWH called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith YHWH, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


The seed of Abraham as the stars and as the sand of the seashore.

Genesis 26:3-6
3. Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4. And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:


And the seed of Isaac would be as the stars of heaven.

Genesis 32:24-30
24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with 'Elohiym and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen 'Elohiym face to face, and my life is preserved.


Jacob was blessed by G-d and his name was changed to ISRAEL.

Genesis 37:9-11
9. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11. And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.


The twelve stars are Joseph and his eleven brothers. The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob. Jacob already interprets the dream for us revealing himself to be the SUN and Rachel to be the MOON (Rachel was the mother of Joseph). Although Jacob rebukes Joseph over the dream the Scripture explicitly states that Jacob "OBSERVED THE SAYING".

Jacob is the man surnamed Israel:
ISRAEL  =  THE SUN
Rachel  =  The Moon
The Twelve Tribes  =  Twelve Stars

From here the foundation is laid for all Scripture typology concerning the "stars of heaven". The stars of heaven are PEOPLE. Specifically the stars of heaven are the sons of Jacob, the children of Israel, the twelve Tribes, even the Saints. (There are also "wandering stars" as in Jude 1:13).

The Song of Deborah and Barak

Judges 5:14-20
14. Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
15. And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
16. Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
17. Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
18. Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
19. The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
20. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.


Sisera was a Canaanite king defeated at Megiddo.
The typology of Sisera is the Devil, Satan, and the red Dragon.
The Stars fought from Heaven and the Stars are the Twelve Tribes.
The Stars of Israel jeoparded their lives in "the high places of the field".
The Stars loved not their lives unto the death ...

Psalms 147:2-4
2. YHWH doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.
3. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.
4. He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 11, 2011 - 18:20:49 by daq »

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The Stars of Heaven
« on: Mon Apr 11, 2011 - 17:25:06 »

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 13, 2011 - 07:43:01 »
All of the Scripture references to the stars above employ the Hebrew word "kowkab" which means "a star" and in all cases above are translated as such, ("kowkabiym" plural, stars).

Strong's Ref. #3556
Romanized  kowkab
Pronounced ko-kawb'
probably from the same as HSN3522 (in the sense of rolling) or HSN3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively, a prince:
KJV--star([-gazer]).

In Daniel 8 we read of "the stars of heaven" being trampled by a little horn. There is a war between the little horn and the Prince, (Sar) of the army, (tsaba' -host) of heaven.

Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10. And it waxed great, even to the host (#6635 tsaba') of heaven; and it cast down some of the host (#6635 tsaba') and of the stars (#3556 kowkabiym) to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince (#8269 sar) of the host, (#6635 tsaba')


Strong's Ref. #6635
Romanized  tsaba'
Pronounced tsaw-baw'
or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from HSN6633; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship):
KJV--appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

Strong's Ref. #8269
Romanized  sar
Pronounced sar
from HSN8323; a head person (of any rank or class):
KJV--captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-])master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

Daniel 8:8-11a
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10. And it waxed great, even to the army of heaven; and it cast down some of the army and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the Sar of the army


The interpretation given in Daniel 8:25 tells us who "the Sar" is.
He is the "Sar-sariym" which is translated: Prince of princes.

Daniel 8:25 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Hebrew Bible)
25. W`al- siklow whitsliyach mirmahbyadow.  Uwbilbabow yagdiyl.  Uwbshalwah yashchiyt rabiym.W`al- Sar- sariym ya`mod.  Uwb'epec yad yishaber.

Daniel 8:23-25 KJV
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


The Prince or "Captain of the host" is thus clarified to Daniel:

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Captain (#8269 sar) of the host (#6635 tsaba') of YHWH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the Captain of the host of YHWH said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua 5:15 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Hebrew Bible)
15. Wayo'mer sar- tsba' YHWH 'el- Yhowshua`, Shal-na`alka me`al ragleka kiy hamaqowm 'sher 'atah `omed`alayw qodesh!  Huw' waya`as Yhowshua` ken.


The Sar of the army of the Stars of Heaven is Michael.

Daniel 10:21 KJV
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince (#8269 sar).

Daniel 12:1-3 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (ha-Sar ha-Gadowl) which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars (#3556 kowkabiym) for ever and ever.


At the opening of the great three-chapter vision of Daniel 10-12 we find a description of Michael, the One and only Archangel, the Head of the sariym-princes. We can know this is Michael and not Gabriel because "the man Gabriel" tells Daniel in the same chapter that he was detained with the kings of Persia for twenty one days until Michael came and succoured, (surrounded) him. He then "jutted over" from the kings of Persia. Daniel sees Michael in the opening of chapter ten. Gabriel is succoured by Michael and brought to Daniel to give him the message-vision, (the same way it happens in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua).

Daniel 10:13 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
13. 'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help (#5826 `azar) me, and I have remained (#3498 yathar) there near the kings of Persia;


Strong's Ref. #5826
Romanized  `azar
Pronounced aw-zar'
a primitive root; to surround, i.e. protect or aid:
KJV--help, succour.

Strong's Ref. #3498
Romanized  yathar
Pronounced yaw-thar'
a primitive root; to jut over or exceed; by implication, to excel; (intransitively) to remain or be left; causatively, to leave, cause to abound, preserve:
KJV--excel, leave (a remnant), left behind, too much, make plenteous, preserve, (be, let) remain(-der, -ing, -nant), reserve, residue, rest.

Daniel 10:13 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Hebrew Bible)
13. Wsar malkuwt Parac `omed lnegdiy`esriym w'echad yowm. Whineh, Miyka'el, 'achad hasariymhari'shoniym, ba' l`azreniy. Wa'niy nowtartiy sham 'etselmalkey Parac.
13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood to my face twenty and the first day. And behold, Michael, the first of the princes of the beginning, came for to succour me. And I jutted over from there beside of the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:14 KJV
14. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.


The description of Michael is identical to that of Christ Yeshua

Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:13-16 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Jacob = Israel
Israel = the Sun
Stars of Heaven = the Army of Heaven ~ the Tribes ~ the Saints
Sar-sariym = Prince of princes ~ Captain of the Army of Heaven
Michael ~ Standing for the children of the people of Daniel
Michael = the Great Prince ~ ha-Sar ha-Gadowl
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 13, 2011 - 09:11:01 by daq »

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 13, 2011 - 07:43:01 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #2 on: Sat Apr 16, 2011 - 03:16:53 »
Hey Daq,

It might be more accurate to say that "stars" represent the heads of the tribes.  In the day it was written they were patriarchs, or sariym.  In medieval terminology, we would call them nobles - barons and earls and dukes.

The people collectively are more often called 'the earth' - ha eretz.

The "sun and the moon" mentioned in conjunction refer to the twain anointed leaders of Israel - the king and high priest - though of course the two positions were always destined for unification.

Jarrod

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #3 on: Sat Apr 16, 2011 - 14:30:57 »
Hey Daq,

It might be more accurate to say that "stars" represent the heads of the tribes.  In the day it was written they were patriarchs, or sariym.  In medieval terminology, we would call them nobles - barons and earls and dukes.

The people collectively are more often called 'the earth' - ha eretz.

The "sun and the moon" mentioned in conjunction refer to the twain anointed leaders of Israel - the king and high priest - though of course the two positions were always destined for unification.

Jarrod


Hi Jarrod
As for the earth and soil representing mankind that is extremely important and true. However, it is actually not 'erets but rather 'adamah (soil) which is generally employed in the supernal sense of mankind, (the soil of the heart as in the Parable of the Sower). As for "the stars of heaven" do you remember a short discussion concerning the following passage? (You did not reply to it so I am not sure you even saw it).

1 Corinthians 15:37-44 KJV
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But G-d giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


This particular passage I did discuss somewhat HERE

All of this is interrelated and according this Scripture there are differing "glories" from one star to another. The resurrection will be the same according to this passage. Thus, the twelve tribal heads are indeed "stars" but that fact is taken in conjunction with the fact that their spiritual offspring, (i.e. portrayed in Rev.7) are also "the stars of heaven". The tribal heads are more like a "genus" or "species" of plant and seed all coming from the one original. The original was Abraham who was promised that his seed would be as the stars of heaven for multitude, (innumerable) as quoted other places above, and the original seed of Abraham is CHRIST according to Gal.3:16.

Galatians 3:16 KJV
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The sons of YHWH 'Elohiym are therefore likened to the stars of heaven for multitude and also for brightness in the resurrection according to the 1Cor.15 passage and also according to Dan.12:3 quoted in a previous post above. The stars were set in their courses in the very beginning of creation to show mankind exactly these things, (symbols or "signs" Gen.1:14).

The woman of Revelation 12 is clothed with the SUN. Who is the sun according to Jacob's own interpretation of the dream of his son Joseph? Jacob sees himself as the SUN because he says to Joseph concerning the dream: "Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?" Jacob therefore interprets himself as the sun and the Scripture then states that even though he had rebuked Joseph, still HE OBSERVED THE SAYING.

Revelation 12:1 KJV
1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


The Revelation 12 woman is Clothed with the SUN = JACOB-ISRAEL
The Revelation 12 woman has a Crown of Twelve Stars = 12 TRIBAL HEADS
The Revelation 12 woman is Zion-Jerusalem of Above = THE BRIDE-WIFE


Re: Revelation 12: The Woman and the Man Child
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, at 07:55:42 AM »

Who then are "the stars of heaven" mentioned in Revelation 12:4?

Revelation 12:2-4 KJV
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Clearly from the Scriptures "the stars of heaven" are the children of Abraham. What is "the tail of the red dragon" which casts the stars of heaven down to the earth?

Isaiah 9:15-16 KJV
15. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16. For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.


The Tail of the Red Dragon is the FALSE PROPHET
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 27, 2011 - 05:03:41 by daq »

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #3 on: Sat Apr 16, 2011 - 14:30:57 »
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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 19, 2011 - 14:50:38 »
 Stars does not have to represent only one matter in the Bible.
 Stars do not ALWAYS have to indicate human saints of God or descendants of Abraham.

  The stars are sometimes employed to mean the angels.

  In speaking of creation of the earth God tells Job:

  "Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone,
   When the morning stars sang together and the all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)


 No descendants of Abraham existed at the time of the creation. And the sons of God, according to this book, means the angelic hosts (Job 1:6; 2:1)

  Job 38:7 is about the angels rejoicing at God's creation of the earth.

Isaiah 14:12 should also indicate the angels over whom Satan, in his ancient rebellion sought to be self exalted, as well as himself being called the Daystar are symbolized as stars.


 "How you have fallen from heaven, O Daystar, son of the dawn ... But you, you said in your heart: I will ascend to the heaven; Above the stars of God I will exalt my throne.

 And I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north." (Isaiah 14:1a,13)

 
  The direction of north is indicative of the place of God and His administrative government:

"For neither from the east nor from the west, and neither from the south, does exaltation come; For God is the Judge: He puts this one down and exalts that one." (Psalm 75:6,7)

 East, west, and south are mentioned. But north is replaced with "God" the Judge who exalts one and put down another.

 Satan himself is described as a star in the book of Revelation:

 "And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss." (Rev. 9:1)

  What this "star" uses the key for includes releasing some destructive person out of the abyss called "Abaddon" in Hebrew and "Apollyon" in Greek (9:11). That is a Destroyer. And it certainly stands for the Antichrist who will do much destroying (Daniel 8:23-25).

  The fallen angel who became Satan is the "star" that summons up the Antichrist.
  This revelation is repeated in chapter 12 and 13 of Revelation:

 "And the dragon [Satan, 12:9] became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed ... And he stood on the sand of the sea.

 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads ... etc" (13:1)


 Revelation 12:17 through 13:1 therefor also indicate Satan summoning up Antichrist.    Though the beast has some governmental significance, it is also said to represent a man:

  "And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eighth [king v.10)] and is out of the seven and goes into perdition." (17:11)

  Satan is the fallen star in Revelation 9:1. And the angels that followed him, whom he deceived from heaven to do so, are also depicted as stars:

"And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, [there was] a great red dragon, ... And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth..." (12:3,4)

 The dragon plus the stars swept up by his tail (probably meaning deception - Isa. 9:15) are "the dragon ... and his angels" (v.7)

  "The stars of heaven here signify the angels (Job 38:7; Isa, 14:12). The third part of the stars of heaven must be the fallen angels, who followed Satan in his rebellion against God, Satan drags all of them away, and as the angels of Satan (v.9). Hence, at that time the earth will be filled with these fallen angels, who damage the dwelling place of the people who rebel against God. The earth will thus be a dreadful place." (Footnote 4(1) of Rev. 12:4, Recovery Version)

  The stars fallen from heaven or cast down from heaven should be indicative of angels being essentially out of their normal place of habitation. Therefore we are wise in this instance, not to interpret falling stars or cast down stars as people.

  The twelve stars as a crown around the woman's head in Revelation 12:1 may represent people without stars having to mean people everywhere else in Scripture.

  
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 05:23:53 by Feedmysheep »

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 19, 2011 - 14:50:38 »



daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 19, 2011 - 22:04:24 »
The misunderstanding of angels is one the most common of all of the modern misconceptions promulgated by the most prominent modern prophecy shepherds in all of their modern teachings for the modern masses. This issue has already been discussed at length:

Re: CHERUBIM AND SERAPHIM
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 06:44:28 PM »

Re: Riddle One - Answer - The 144,000
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 08:29:14 PM »

As for the keys they too have already been discussed elsewhere in this forum. The only ones who have the keys are the saints. One of those keys is probably the key of David, (which is a broken heart after the Word is revealed to us and we finally realize what we have truly done, even as Satan stood against Israel, 1Chr.21:1). One cannot see this if he or she is still in the midst of whatever it is he or she doing against Christ. I hope and pray that everyone who reads this will one day be shown the truth because the alternative is a hailstone-crown and the birth of Edom, Moab, and the prominent crowned sons of Ammon, every hailstone-crown about the weight of a talent, (2Sam.12:30, Dan.11:41, Rev.16:21) and with this crowning comes strong delusion and the twice dead spoken of in Jude.

Matthew 16:18-19 KJV
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


------------------------------

Stars does not have to represent only one matter in the Bible.
 Stars do not ALWAYS have to indicate human saints of God or descendants of Abraham.

  The stars are sometimes employed to mean the angels.

  In speaking of creation of the earth God tells Job:

  "Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone,
   When the morning stars sang together and the all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)


 No descendants of Abraham existed at the time of the creation. And the sons of God, according to this book, means the angelic hosts (Job 1:6; 2:1)

  Job 38:7 is about the angels rejoicing at God's creation of the earth.

Isaiah 14:12 should also indicate the angels over whom Satan, in his ancient rebellion sought to be self exalted, as well as himself being called the Daystar are symbolized as stars.


 "How you have fallen from heaven, O Daystar, son of the dawn ... But you, you said in your heart: I will ascend to the heaven; Above the stars of God I will exalt my throne.

 And I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north." (Isaiah 14:1a,13)

 
  The direction of north is indicative of the place of God and His administrative government:

"For neither from the east nor from the west, and neither from the south, does exaltation come; For God is the Judge: He puts this one down and exalts that one." (Psalm 75:6,7)

 East, west, and south are mentioned. But north is replaced with "God" the Judge who exalts one and put down another.

 Satan himself is described as a star in the book of Revelation:

 "And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss." (Rev. 9:1)

  What this "star" uses the key for includes releasing some destructive person out of the abyss called "Abaddon" in Hebrew and "Apollyon" in Greek (9:11). That is a Destroyer. And it certainly stands for the Antichrist who will do much destroying (Daniel 8:23-25).

  The fallen angel who became Satan is the "star" that summons up the Antichrist.
  This revelation is repeated in chapter 12 and 13 of Revelation:

 "And the dragon [Satan, 12:9] became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed ... And he stood on the sand of the sea.

 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads ... etc" (13:1)


 Revelation 12:17 through 13:1 therefor also indicate Satan summoning up Antichrist.    Though the beast has some governmental significance, it is also said to represent a man:

  "And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eighth [king v.10)] and is out of the seven and goes into perdition." (17:11)

  Satan is the fallen star in Revelation 9:1. And the angels that followed him, whom he deceived from heaven to do so, are also depicted as stars:

"And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, [there was] a great red dragon, ... And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth..." (12:3,4)

 The dragon plus the stars swept up by his tail (probably meaning deception - Isa. 9:15) are "the dragon ... and his angels" (v.7)

  "The stars of heaven here signify the angels (Job 38:7; Isa, 14:12). The third part of the stars of heaven must be the fallen angels, who followed Satan in his rebellion against God, Satan drags all of them away, and as the angels of Satan (v.9). Hence, at that time the earth will be filled wit these fallen angels, who damage the dwelling place of the people who rebel against God. The earth will thus be a dreadful place." (Footnote 4(1) of Rev. 12:4, Recovery Version)

  The stars fallen from heaven or cast down from heaven should be indicative of angels being essentially out of their normal place of habitation. Therefore we are wise in this instance, not to interpret falling stars or cast down stars as people.

  The twelve stars as a crown around the woman's head in Revelation 12:1 may represent people without stars having to mean people everywhere else in Scripture.


YOU have the key to the opening of the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
ONLY YOU can open the mouth of the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
PERHAPS YOU have already opened the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
FOR YOU appear to be a disciple of "Lee" rather than a disciple of the Word.

------------------------------

TAMIYD  =  CONTINUAL - PERPETUAL - DAILY

Strong's Ref. #8548
Romanized  tamiyd
Pronounced taw-meed'
from an unused root meaning to stretch; properly, continuance (as indefinite extension); but used only (attributively as adjective) constant (or adverbially, constantly); ellipt. the regular (daily) sacrifice:
KJV--alway(-s), continual (employment, -ly), daily, ([n-])ever(-more), perpetual.

Daniel 8 speaks nothing of the daily SACRIFICES. The word "tamiyd" is employed by itself without the usage of any other word for "sacrifice" in the Daniel 8 passage. Thus, if one would desire to understand what is being spoken of then one would be well advised to seek out at least the first several places in the Scripture where the word Tamiyd is employed. The first usage of Tamiyd is in relationship with the daily shewbread, (the continual daily bread of the Tabernacle-Sanctuary-Temple).

Exodus 25:30 KJV
30. And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me always (HSN#8548 tamiyd).

Exodus 25:30 YGB (Youngs Literal)
30. and thou hast put on the table bread of the presence before Me continually.


Tamiyd is next found in Exodus 28:29-30 concerning the Breastplate.

Exodus 28:29-30 KJV
29. And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the L-rd continually.
30. And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the L-rd: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the L-rd continually.


Tamiyd is then employed concerning the engraved golden plate-crown of the mitsnepheth-Miter which is to be upon the FOREHEAD of the high priest and to be worn TAMIYD-CONTINUALLY before YHWH.

Exodus 28:36-38 KJV
36. And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE L-RD.
37. And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
38. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the L-rd.


Tamiyd is finally used in the context of the daily sacrifices but not until its fifth occurrence in the Scripture. However, the word "tamiyd" does not mean "daily" in the context but rather is translated "continually" (perpetually). The compound word translated "day by day" is "la-yowm" which means "for the day" (i.e. two lambs "for the day" - continually). The exact phrase is "la-yowm tamiyd".

Exodus 28:38 KJV
38. Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:


TAMIYD is used for the CONTINUAL incense offered upon the Golden Altar.
TAMIYD is used for the OIL (Spirit) in the CONTINUALLY burning Menorah.

Exodus 30:8 KJV
8. And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the L-rd throughout your generations.

Leviticus 24:2 KJV
2. Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.


TAMIYD implies ALL of the continual-perpetual holy things which are continually before YHWH. The most important of which for the saints is THE BREAD OF LIFE which as we know is YESHUA. This also is the first usage of TAMIYD in all of the Scripture, employed in Exodus 25:30 shown above, for the CONTINUAL SHEWBREAD.

Daniel 8:11 then describes a FAMINE of the Tamiyd Bread, a lack of the TAMIYD OIL in the Lamps, the wrong NAME engraven in the gold plate-crown of the mitsnepheth-Miter which is to be CONTINUALLY upon the forehead of the priests. YHWH states that he will bring a famine, not of physical food, but of hearing of the Words of YHWH. This happens because of rebellion which must be crushed before we can really ever know Him. The holy city, Jerusalem of Above, is taken up from the little horn and the habitation-place of his miqdash (chapel-sanctuary-BODY-temple) is cast down.

Daniel 8:11 KJV
11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by (HSN#4480 min) him the daily (HSN#8548 tamiyd) sacrifice was taken away, (HSN#7311 ruwm) and the place (HSN#4349 makown) of his sanctuary (HSN#4720 miqdash) was cast down.


Strong's Ref. #7311
Romanized  ruwm
Pronounced room
a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):
KJV--bring up, exalt (self), extol, give, go up, haughty, heave (up), (be, lift up on, make on, set up on, too) high(-er, one), hold up, levy, lift(-er) up, (be) lofty, (X a-)loud, mount up, offer (up), + presumptuously, (be) promote(-ion), proud, set up, tall(-er), take (away, off, up), breed worms.

Strong's Ref. #4349
Romanized  makown
Pronounced maw-kone'
from HSN3559; properly, a fixture, i.e. a basis; generally a place, especially as an abode:
KJV--foundation, habitation, (dwelling-, settled) place.

Strong's Ref. #4720
Romanized  miqdash
Pronounced mik-dawsh'
or miqqdash (Exo.15v17) {mik-ked-awsh'}; from HSN6942; a consecrated thing or place, especially, a palace, sanctuary (whether of J-h-v-h or of idols) or asylum:
KJV--chapel, hallowed part, holy place, sanctuary.

Strong's Ref. #4480
Romanized  min
Pronounced min
or minniy {min-nee'}; or minney (constructive plural) {min-nay'}; (Isa.30v11); for HSN4482; properly, a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses (as follows):
KJV--above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

"uwmimenuw"  =  "OUT FROM HIM" - "AWAY FROM HIM"

Daniel 8:11 TUA (Hebrew Transliterated Unaccented)
11. W`ad Sar- hatsaba' higdiyl.Uwmimenuw huwram {*} hatamiyd.  Whushlak mkown miqdashow.

Daniel 8:11
11. Even unto the Sar-Prince of the army he magnified, and from him was taken up the Tamiyd, (tamiyd-continual holy things). And was cast down the habitation of his miqdash-chapel-temple-body.


Daniel 8 and Revelation 12 are Companion Chapters
The Tamiyd is the Woman of Revelation 12
The Woman of Revelation 12 is all of the tamiyd-continual holy things.
The Woman is Jerusalem of Above, the mother of us all (Heb.12:22, Gal.4:26).
The Tamiyd is taken up on two wings of a Great Eagle (YHWH and His Word).
Her seed keep the commandments of YHWH: having the testimony of Yeshua.

Revelation 12:14 KJV
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of G-d, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Stars of Heaven are the Saints
Revelation 9:1 reveals that the Stars fall from heaven one at a time …
Each in his appointed time: from the Resurrection of Yeshua until now …

Revelation 9:1-2 KJV
1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Daniel 8:10 KJV
10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Revelation 12:4 KJV
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


There is no reason for the little horn to stamp upon fallen angelic creatures if once he had cast them out of heaven. This is because the fallen angelic creatures have no chance of salvation or redemption from their fallen state according to the Scripture. They cannot be trampled anymore than when they first fell, and to trample them now defeats the purposes of the enemy, and if he is divided against himself his kingdom cannot stand. There is a war ongoing, yet the fate of the fallen angels has already been sealed from long ago at the beginning.

Matthew 12:26 KJV
26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?


The Stars of Daniel 8:10 and Revelation 12:4 are exactly what the rest of Scripture states that they are: Which are the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-Israel.

Wednesday

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #6 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 01:02:17 »
Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Can some one tell me what the broken horn and the other horns coming out is?  I tried reading all ya'll have written, but to be totally honest my attention span gets lost in long post. (sorry, I really am A.D.D.)  I would like very much to understand the book of Daniel and would like to start with understanding what the horns breaking, and the little horn means.  Also, what actually are these horns on?  What kind of animal?

larry2

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #7 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 01:39:56 »

Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Can some one tell me what the broken horn and the other horns coming out is?  I tried reading all ya'll have written, but to be totally honest my attention span gets lost in long post. (sorry, I really am A.D.D.)  I would like very much to understand the book of Daniel and would like to start with understanding what the horns breaking, and the little horn means.  Also, what actually are these horns on?  What kind of animal?



Dear Wednesday, here is a link to the study of Daniel, Chapter Eight I posted some time ago. I have the other chapter links available if you like the study. When you get there, you can do a "Ctrl F" search and type in 8:8 for instance, and be taken directly to the verse you want. I hope you enjoy it.

- http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-eight/


Wednesday

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 02:07:34 »
Thank you Larry, I will enjoy reading that!  Very kind of you!  ::smile::

Offline Abbyabbie

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #9 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 03:00:10 »
i am agree with you!!

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #10 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 05:09:01 »
Quote from: daq


YOU have the key to the opening of the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
ONLY YOU can open the mouth of the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
PERHAPS YOU have already opened the Well of the Pit of the Abussos.
FOR YOU appear to be a disciple of "Lee" rather than a disciple of the Word.

  I don't know who you think you impress with all your pastings from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and other Lexicons.

   I am a disciple of Jesus and a student of the word of God. And it is an honor to be ill spoken of as having some association with brother Witness Lee.

   Be aware that vague accusations are usually the way of the Devil.
   You have never written anything that I can recall as a specific doctrinal error with which
   you take issue with Witness Lee. If you have one, make a thread and present it.
  
   Your vague grumblings about Witness Lee just amount to throwing dust in the air.

  


« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 07:45:13 by Feedmysheep »

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #11 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 05:14:12 »
Welcome to the forum Abbyabbie!
Yeshua bless your Bread of Life and Living Water!

Dear Wednesday
Once upon a time there was a time where there was, and is, and will be an appointed time. And in this appointed time there was, and is, and will be a double ram sacrifice. Now the double ram sacrifice takes place at the very end of the ceremonies at the end of the very great day. And of course the very great day is presided over by the Great High Priest, ha-Kohen ha-Gadol, who blesses our bread of life and our living water. This is the great day of the mow`ed-assembly-appointment where he always wears his kittel, a white linen robe down to the foot. And in this great day all the wise people of the kingdom practice afflicting their own souls because it is the great day of the judgment, the greatest and most fearful of all the days of the year, even the
L-rd's Day, which is not only the most holy Shabbat but also known as Yom Kippur.

And in this once upon a time, in an unknown time, yet to be completed for many in their own time, there was a time when the double ram sacrifice was tied up at the altar of Ulai awaiting the sacrifice at the end of the ceremonies of the great day. Now the double ram offering is a burnt offering made by fire: and one of the offerings before it during the great day is a shaggy he-goat. Now the shaggy he-goat has a twin named `Aza'zel which is to be set free at the end of the great day so as to make an atonement upon his head, mortally wounding him. However, in the time in question the `Aza'zel gets loose, wanders off, and comes back into the sanctuary where he is not supposed to be: And this kind of one is like an old man coming back to his abode from out of the arid desert, seeking rest, desert dwellers of Kittim they were called in ancient days, and more subtle than all the other beasts of the field.

So like a Prince of the power of the air this shady old one called `Aza'zel flew across the entire sanctuary, without touching the ground, and struck the double ram sacrifice, breaking both of its two horns of power. And this now put the entire Atonement service slightly out of order as one might imagine because the double ram sacrifice, which is the final burnt offering at the end of the day, lay wounded and broken at the altar of Ulai. So the great High Priest, ha-Kohen ha-Gadol, sent his messenger to inform the wise people of the kingdom that it would be two thousand three hundred evening-morning until the Leviticus Sixteen Sanctuary would be set right. And that he would send out his messengers to come and get each of them when the time had ripened. And I saw that the shady old man `Aza'zel is taken, and cast alive into the Limne tou Puros.


Daniy'el 8
1.  In the third year of the dominion of Bel'shatsar the king; a vision appeared unto me of myself, Daniye'l, after what had appeared to me in the commencement.
2.  And I saw in a dream-oracle, And it came to pass in my watching, even I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in Elam the province. And I watched in the dream-oracle: and I was by the river of Ulai.
3.  And I lifted up my eyes and looked, And Behold; one ram, stationed before the river. And it had horns, and the horns were powerful-arrogant. And the latter was the more proud out of the two. And the proud one ascended in the afterwards.
4.  And I watched the ram butting westward, and northward, and southward. And of all animals none could stand to his face. And nothing was delivered from his hand. And he did according to his desire, and magnified.
5.  And I was considering, and behold; an he-goat of the kids came from the shadows of the west, over the face of all the land, and not was it touching the ground. And the he-goat had a notable-conspicuous horn between its eyes.
6.  And it came over-against the ram, the baal of the two horns which I had seen stationed before the river, and it rushed at him in the fury of its power.
7.  And I saw him strike at the side of the ram, and he was moved with choler, and smote the ram, and shattered his two horns. And there was no power in the ram to stand before him, and he cast him down to the ground and stamped upon him. And there was nothing to deliver the ram from his hand.
8.  And the he-goat of the kids magnified vehemently, and as he became strong the great horn was broken. And ascended four notable-conspicuous ones, in its place, to the four winds of heaven.
9.  And from the one-united of them came forth a horn: one-united mits`iyrah. And it waxed fat toward the south-Negev, and toward the rising sun-Mizrach, and toward the beautiful-Tsebiy.
10.  And it magnified unto the army of the heavens, and felled to the earth from some of the army and from some of the stars, and stamped upon them.
11.  Even unto the Sar-Prince of the army it magnified, and from him was taken up the Tamiyd, and was cast down the habitation of his miqdash-body-temple.
12.  And an army was given against the Tamiyd through transgression, and it cast down truth to the ground, and it worked and pushed forward.
13.  And I heard one holy one speaking, and said another holy one to Palmowniy the numberer that spake: Until how long is the dream-oracle, the Tamiyd, and the transgression of desolation, to give even the qodesh-holy-sanctuary and the army to be trampled?
14.  And he said unto me: Until evening-morning two thousand and three hundred; And shall be cleansed the qodesh-holy-sanctuary.
15.  And it came to pass when I had seen myself, Daniye'l, in the dream-oracle; then sought I for the meaning, and Behold; stationed opposing me to my face: the mirror-image-likeness of a mighty one.
16.  And I heard the voice of a man in the midst of Ulai: and he called out and said: Gabriy'el, make this one to understand the mirror!
17.  So he came to the side of my station, and in his coming I was terrified, and cast down upon my face. And he said to me: Understand son of man, because for the time of the end is the dream-oracle!
18.  And in his speaking with me I was comatose upon my face to the ground. And he struck me, and he stood me upright to my station.
19.  And he said: Behold, I make known to you that which shall be in the latter part of the fury, because for the mow`ed-appointment is the end.
20.  The ram which you saw, the baal of the horns: kings of Media and Persia.
21.  And the he-goat, the shaggy-satyr: king of Yavan-Grecia. And the great horn which is between his eyes, he is the first king.
22.  And that being broken; whereas there stood up four in its place: four kingdoms from that nation shall stand up, but not in his power.
23.  And in the latter time of their kingdom, as the transgressions are come to the full, shall stand a king of the countenance of `Az.
24.  And mighty is his power, but not by his own power, and wondrously he shall corrupt. And he shall advance and shall do acts. And he shall corrupt the mighty and the holy people.
25.  And by his wisdom he shall advance craftiness in his hand, and in his heart he shall magnify himself, and through peaceful-prosperity he shall destroy many. And against the Sar-Prince of princes he shall stand, but without hand he is broken.
26.  And the mirror-image of the evening and the morning which was told; established truth it is. But you; seal up the dream-oracle because it is for many days.
27.  And myself: "Daniy'el" had i become, and i was afflicted the days. Then i arose and did the business of the king. And i was Desolated over the mirror-image, (of myself as a mighty one) but no one understood.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 22, 2011 - 08:30:58 by daq »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #12 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 06:00:58 »
 
Quote from: daq

The Stars of Daniel 8:10 and Revelation 12:4 are exactly what the rest of Scripture states that they are: Which are the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-Israel.

 Stars signifying saints in Daniel 8:10 does not insist that stars in Revelation 12:4 also have to represent  saints.

 Nor does it insist that stars in Job 38:7 have to be saints.

 And stars symbilizing angels in Revelation 12:4 does not insist that stars in Daniel 8:10 has to be angels.

  

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #13 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 07:16:49 »
 
Quote from: daq

Revelation 9:1-2 KJV
1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Daniel 8:10 KJV
10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Revelation 12:4 KJV
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

There is no reason for the little horn to stamp upon fallen angelic creatures if once he had cast them out of heaven. This is because the fallen angelic creatures have no chance of salvation or redemption from their fallen state according to the Scripture. They cannot be trampled anymore than when they first fell, and to trample them now defeats the purposes of the enemy, and if he is divided against himself his kingdom cannot stand. There is a war ongoing, yet the fate of the fallen angels has already been sealed from long ago at the beginning.

    The stars stomped by the little horn in Daniel 8:10 I take as the persecution of the saints of God.

    This does not mean stars in Revelation 12:4 have to be saints of God.

     Reasoning that Satan divided against himself, can only lead to the destruction of his kingdom, is not that good reasoning in this case. Revelation does in fact show the destruction of Satan's kingdom. It is falling one way or another.

    Reasoning that the Star in Revelation 9:1 is one of the descendents of Abraham doesn't make much sense. Why would a descendent of Abraham as a saint want to release the Destroyer from the abyss ?

    Reasoning that stars swept away by the dragon's tail and cast to the earth are the decendents of Abraham, may have some merit. But it is not as good as reasoning that those stars are one third of the angels of heaven.

    If the stars as a crown on the woman's head were exempted from this, then what is the difference between the stars as the woman's crown and the two thirds stars which were not swept away by the dragon's tail ?

  It is better to assume that two mentionings of stars in chapter 12 have two different things in mind.

  We are told of the devil and his angels fighting. It is important that we know what is the origin of all his angels. The symbol of the dragon dragging the away from the other good angels is the perfect explanation for this.

  If one third of the descendents of Abraham were dragged away by Satan and two thirds were not, then what does this correspond to in the prophecy, or in the whole Bible for that matter ?

   Verses 7 and 8 speak of the war with the devil and his angels - "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels."

 This would perfectly correspond with one third of the angels being aligned with Satan through deception and two thirds left to be aligned with God.

  Verse 8 says - "And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven."

 That would strengthen the concept that stars, which should be in the heavens, were cast to the earth in verse 4. On one hand they were forced down by the good angels. But from another view point they were dragged down by being deceived to engage in a Satanic rebellion which could not succeed.

  I agree with the interpretation that saints of Israel is probably meant in the stars which are trampled by the little horn in Daniel 8. It also could stand for some extreme advanced knowledge of this evil person to reach into space or use such high technology as to be practicaly superhuman.

  The little horn is very intelligent and we are told that knowledge shall encrease.

  I find unconvicing the equvication of the little horn vision of Daniel 8 with the dragon vision of Revelation 12.  

 "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."
  
 Satan was cast down because of his rebellion and failure. His angels was cast down because of following and co-sharing in his defeat. They were deceived to follow a plot which could not succeed. So the symbol of a dragon dragging away one third of the stars of heaven and casting them to the earth is best interpreted as the devil and his angels.

 No human evil entity is revealed until the next chapter when a beast comes up out of the sea.

  And the great tribulation is caused by the descent of the devil. And in this case "the devil" would certainly indicate the devil and his hosts, evil and powerful supernatural angels.

" Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (12:12b)
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 07:38:37 by Feedmysheep »

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #14 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 08:13:12 »
   The stars stomped by the little horn in Daniel 8:10 I take as the persecution of the saints of God.

    This does not mean stars in Revelation 12:4 have to be saints of God.

     Reasoning that Satan divided against himself, can only lead to the destruction of his kingdom at the end times, is not that good reasoning. Revelation does in fact show the destruction of Satan's kingdom. It is falling one way or another.

    Reasoning that the Star in Revelation 9:1 is one of the descendents of Abraham doesn't make much sense. Why would a descendent of Abraham as a saint want to release the Destroyer from the abyss ?

    Reasoning that stars swept away by the dragon's tail and cast to the earth are the decendents of Abraham, may have some merit. But it is not as good as reasoning that those stars are one third of the angels of heaven.

    If the stars as a crown on the woman's head were exempted from this, then what is the difference between the stars as the woman's crown and the two thirds stars which were not swept away by the dragon's tail ?

  It is better to assume that two mentionings of stars in chapter 12 have two different things in mind.

  We are told of the devil and his angels fighting. It is important that we know what is the origin of all his angels. The symbol of the dragon dragging the away from the other good angels is the perfect explanation for this.

  If one third of the descendents of Abraham were dragged away by Satan and two thirds were not, then what does this correspond to in the prophecy, or in the whole Bible for that matter ?

   Verses 7 and 8 speak of the war with the devil and his angels - "And there was war in heaven: Micahel and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels."

 This would perfectly correspond with one third of the angels being aligned with Satan through deception and two thirds left to be aligned with God.

  Verse 8 says - "And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven."

 That would strengthen the concept that stars, which should be in the heavens, were cast to the earth in verse 4. On one hand they were forced down by the good angels. But from another view point they were dragged down by being deceived to engage in a Satanic rebellion which could not succeed.

  I agree with the interpretation that saints of Israel is probably meant in the stars which are trampled by the little horn in Daniel 8. It also could stand for some extreme advanced knowledge of this evil person to reach into space or use such high technology as to be practicaly superhuman.

  The little horn is very intelligent and we are told that knowledge shall encrease.

  I find unconvicing the equvication of the little horn vision of Daniel 8 with the dragon vision of Revelation 12.  

 "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."
  
 Satan was cast down because of his rebellion and failure. His angels was cast down because of following and co-sharing in his defeat. They were deceived to follow a plot which could not succeed. So the symbol of a dragon dragging away one third of the stars of heaven and casting them to the earth is best interpreted as the devil and his angels.

 No human evil entity is revealed until the next chapter when a beast comes up out of the sea.

  And the great tribulation is caused by the descent of the devil. And in this case "the devil" would certainly indicate the devil and his hosts, evil and powerful supernatural angels.

" Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (12:12b)

Perhaps you have not misunderstood just a little but rather everything said here so far? The third of men killed in Revelation 9 are the only ones saved because the other two thirds repented not of their devil worship: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. See also Ezekiel 5 where the city is divided into three parts. And per your own words then the tribulation must have started in Luke when Yeshua stated that he beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven when the seventy had cast out devils during their mission.

Luke 10:17-21 KJV
17. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, L-rd, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, L-rd of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


As for the "good warrior angels" you have imagined: the Scripture proves you and your teacher Lee wrong on that one also because Gabriel states that there are NONE others who holdeth, (strengtheneth) with him against the Prince of Persia or the Prince of Grecia, (powers of the heavens) except for MICHAEL the Great Prince who stands for the children of Daniel's people.

Daniel 10:20-21 KJV
20. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael your prince.

Daniel 10:21 ASV
21. But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #15 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 09:22:42 »
 
Quote from: daq
Perhaps you have not misunderstood just a little but rather everything said here so far? The third of men killed in Revelation 9 are the only ones saved because the other two thirds repented not of their devil worship: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

   First of all, I made no comment about the proportions of humans killed or otherwise from Revelation 9.  The "third" that I spoke to was the stars in ch. 12  which I said signified angels.

 Without going back over all your posts I don't know why you are talking about thirds of people in Revelation 9. But just looking at you arithmetic in the above statement, it is highly suspect.

  You seem to be saying that the one third killed by the three plagues of the sixth trumpet were saved. And the two thirds that did not repent were not saved.

  Just because it says "And the rest of the men, who were not killed by these plagues, still did not repent of their works ...", this tells us nothing about whether the killed ones consisted of repentant ones and none repentant ones and how many of each.  All we know is that they were killed, PERIOD.

  The ones who escaped this killing still did not repent. Out of the third of men that were killed we don't know that none repented and were killed. It is possible to repent just before dying or while dying.  So verse 20 only indicates the behavior of those who were not killed.

  And of the ones who were killed, "the third part of men"  we have no idea which were saved and which were not. Plenty of saved people can be killed in war, famine, natural calamities throughout history.

 We simply do not know their salvation state. We only know that they were not saved from being killed by the plagues of the sixth trumpet.
  
 
Quote from: daq
[/size]
 See also Ezekiel 5 where the city is divided into three parts. And per your own words then the tribulation must have started in Luke when Yeshua stated that he beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven when the seventy had cast out devils during their mission.[/size]

  Faulty reasoning.  Jesus said He saw Satan failing from heaven like lightening. We do not know if this was a prophetic vision of the future or a falling he saw taking place at the moment.  Maybe even it was a remembrance of something in the past.

  I only grasp from Luke 10:18 the PRINCIPLE that as the disciples exercised spiritual dominion Satan was being cast down. Per my words, my reference to this principle does not prove that the great tribulation started at the time of Luke 10:18.

  Besides, Jesus indicated that a demon cast out of a man could enter in that man again. He could take seven others and the last state of the man be worst than the first. Therefore, even if Satan did undergo a falling from heaven at the time of Luke 10:18 he could reinstate himself. Ie. a BATTLE lost but not yet the WAR.

 Evil can return to power when the saints do not hold on to the divine victory. So you cannot force upon me that Luke 10:18 has to be my concept of the beginning of the great tribulation.

   In Revelation 12 he is cast to the earth and only has a short time. And that is 42 months, 1,260 days, three and one half years.  I never taught that 42 months following the incidents of Luke 10:18 Christ returned to earth to establish His messianic kingdom of 1,000 years.  

 
Quote from: daq

As for the "good warrior angels" you have imagined: the Scripture proves you and your teacher Lee wrong on that one also because Gabriel states that there are NONE others who holdeth, (strengtheneth) with him against the Prince of Persia or the Prince of Grecia, (powers of the heavens) except for MICHAEL the Great Prince who stands for the children of Daniel's people.

Daniel 10:20-21 KJV
20. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael your prince.

Daniel 10:21 ASV
21. But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

 This does not prove that the stars dragged away by the dragon's tail are not angels.

 There are only TWO angels mentioned by name in the Bible which are considered good ones. Michael and Gabriel.  This could be because they are archangels or of some higher rank.

 So "none other ... but Michael"  probably means none other but the other archangel.

  So what?  That doesn't prove that the stars dragged away by the dragon's tail are not angels. And by far, I am sure Witness Lee is not the first or only expositor to teach that the stars dragged away by the dragon's tail are bad angels.

 And if bad ones exist (1/3) , goods ones must be left (2/3). So they fight in the same chapter (however angels happen to fight).

 And it is the rapture of the man-child which triggers the war to break out and for the Devil to be defeated. And the man-child is a corporate group of those who have overcome through redemption - "they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb".  


 That could not refer to good angels because good angels have no need of the redemption of Christ. Humans do.

 In chapter 12 the stars dragged by the dragon's tail are angels. The ones not dragged are the good ones left over. And the man-child is a corporate "THEY" and "THEM" and "BROTHERS" redeemed by the blood of Jesus in verses 10,11.

 They loved not their soul-life even unto death. This proves that in the past they were martyred.


 And one other thing. I notice that people like you who imitate others, Ie. L-rd, G-d, etc. are the first to criticize OTHERS as following men too much.   You yourself are just imitating some procedure you picked up from a man. Your charges of man following wreak with hypocrisy.

   Do you want to have good fellowship even though we may not agree on all matters?
 Or do you want to play hardball and keep trying to make learning from one Witness Lee as a crime of some sort ?

 I can meet you on either ground. I prefer we just have some reasonably cordial fellowship about what we see in the word of God.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 11:36:24 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #16 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 17:54:44 »
Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Can some one tell me what the broken horn and the other horns coming out is?  I tried reading all ya'll have written, but to be totally honest my attention span gets lost in long post. (sorry, I really am A.D.D.)  I would like very much to understand the book of Daniel and would like to start with understanding what the horns breaking, and the little horn means.  Also, what actually are these horns on?  What kind of animal?
The Goat is a metaphor for the empire of Greece.  The Great Horn is Greek king Alexander the Great, who conquered the entire world known to him within his lifespan.

Alexander died untimely early in life, which is the breaking of the horn.  In his place, 4 of the generals of his armies divided his kingdom into 4 regions, and each took to ruling one.  These are the 4 horns coming up in place of the 1 great horn.

1 of these 4 generals was then assassinated in a coup.  One of the generals' assistants, called Seleuceus, staged the coup, and consolidated power after his death over more than 1/4 of the Greek kingdom.  His descendants became the Seleucid dynasty, which ruled Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and sometimes Judea for several centuries.  Seleuceus and his dynasty are the "little horn."  He would still be considered "Greek" because the Seleucids were fanatical proponents of Greek culture and customs.

In particular one of the Seleucid rulers - Antiochus Epiphanes IV - made war upon Judea and conquered it.  He demanded to be worshiped as a god in the Jewish temple, and sacrificed a pig on the altar there, desecrating it.  He built a gymnasium on the temple mount near the temple, and held competitive olympic-style games there - in which the contestants were nude, and sometimes fought to the death.  He minted coins proclaiming himself to be god, deposed several of the Jewish high priests, and appointed new high priests of his own choosing.  He outlawed circumcision.  The Jews hated him and revolted, and eventually won their freedom.

Jarrod

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #17 on: Wed Apr 20, 2011 - 23:39:23 »
I don't know who you think you impress with all your pastings from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and other Lexicons.

I am a disciple of Jesus and a student of the word of God. And it is an honor to be ill spoken of as having some association with brother Witness Lee.

Be aware that vague accusations are usually the way of the Devil.
You have never written anything that I can recall as a specific doctrinal error with which you take issue with Witness Lee. If you have one, make a thread and present it.

Your vague grumblings about Witness Lee just amount to throwing dust in the air.


Be aware that those who "walk by the belly" are as Esau, who is Edom, and like that old father of all them who walk in the flesh and see only with the eyes of the flesh. All those who live by the flesh will die. Yet those who walk by the belly are always the first to cast stones at anyone who sees according to the Spirit. The same were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes who accused Yeshua of casting out devils by Beelzebub.

"And YHWH 'Elohiym said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; `Al- gchonka telek" ~ (by the belly shall ye walk)...


And one other thing. I notice that people like you who imitate others, Ie. L-rd, G-d, etc. are the first to criticize OTHERS as following men too much.   You yourself are just imitating some procedure you picked up from a man. Your charges of man following wreak with hypocrisy.

   Do you want to have good fellowship even though we may not agree on all matters?
 Or do you want to play hardball and keep trying to make learning from one Witness Lee as a crime of some sort ?

 I can meet you on either ground. I prefer we just have some reasonably cordial fellowship about what we see in the word of God.


Who said anything about a "Witness" Lee?

Limne tou Puros ~

Isaiah 34
1. Come near, ye heathen, Hear! and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all its offspring.
2. For the indignation of YHWH is upon all the nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6. The sword of YHWH is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for there is a sacrifice unto YHWH in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8. For the day of vengeance it is to YHWH, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9. And the valleys thereof shall be turned into asphalt, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the rimline of Tohuw, and the stones of Bohuw.
12. They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her Sariym shall be nothing.
13. And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
14. And the desert dwelling nomads shall meet with the wild howlers of the island, and the shaggy goat satyr will call out to his fellow; Leeleeth shall settle down there, and find for herself a place of rest.
15. There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
16. Seek ye out of the book of YHWH, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth he hath commanded, and his Spirit it hath gathered them.
17. And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.


RE: Genesis Sons of G-d - LeeLeeth

« Last Edit: Thu Apr 21, 2011 - 05:56:23 by daq »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #18 on: Thu Apr 21, 2011 - 06:13:14 »
 
Quote from: daq


   Who said anything about a "Witness" Lee?
 

 
 You did.
 And this little weasel word maneuver with quotations doesn't prove you didn't.
 It shows you can be clever, that's all.
  
 
Quote from: daq

FOR YOU appear to be a disciple of "Lee" rather than a disciple of the Word.


    Is that big bouncing smiling yellow face suppose to show you exude with self confidence ?

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #19 on: Thu Apr 21, 2011 - 06:23:18 »
 
Quote from: daq
Quote from: Feedmysheep on Yesterday at 08:22:42 AM
And one other thing. I notice that people like you who imitate others, Ie. L-rd, G-d, etc. are the first to criticize OTHERS as following men too much.   You yourself are just imitating some procedure you picked up from a man. Your charges of man following wreak with hypocrisy.

   Do you want to have good fellowship even though we may not agree on all matters?
 Or do you want to play hardball and keep trying to make learning from one Witness Lee as a crime of some sort ?

 I can meet you on either ground. I prefer we just have some reasonably cordial fellowship about what we see in the word of God.


 It is customery that when you quote someone else and highlight or underline words in that person's quote, that you indicate that the EMPHASIS is YOURS.  That's what I do by indicating [my emphasis].

 Its a matter of integrity.

 I would have thought a frequent paster like you would know that and practice that.

  

daq

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Re: The Stars of Heaven
« Reply #20 on: Thu Apr 21, 2011 - 06:58:57 »
Quote from: daq
Quote from: Feedmysheep on Yesterday at 08:22:42 AM
And one other thing. I notice that people like you who imitate others, Ie. L-rd, G-d, etc. are the first to criticize OTHERS as following men too much.   You yourself are just imitating some procedure you picked up from a man. Your charges of man following wreak with hypocrisy.

   Do you want to have good fellowship even though we may not agree on all matters?
 Or do you want to play hardball and keep trying to make learning from one Witness Lee as a crime of some sort ?

 I can meet you on either ground. I prefer we just have some reasonably cordial fellowship about what we see in the word of God.



 It is customery that when you quote someone else and highlight or underline words in that person's quote, that you indicate that the EMPHASIS is YOURS.  That's what I do by indicating [my emphasis].

 Its a matter of integrity.

 I would have thought a frequent paster like you would know that and practice that.

  


Quote from: daq


   Who said anything about a "Witness" Lee?
 


 
 You did.
 And this little weasel word maneuver with quotations doesn't prove you didn't.
 It shows you can be clever, that's all.
  
 
Quote from: daq

FOR YOU appear to be a disciple of "Lee" rather than a disciple of the Word.



    Is that big bouncing smiling yellow face suppose to show you exude with self confidence ?


Do you consider yourself a "destroyer" of anyone opposing you? You sure act like you think you are some "mighty one"...

As for "Lee" I showed you what it meant and I do not care if you believe me or not.

As for the quotes are you so blind that you do not see how you just changed the Font, Color, and Size in the quote you posted from me?

Finally if you have nothing to offer to the topic then why are you still following me around?

The thrust of the Daniel 8 translation on Page 1 is not in error:


Daniy'el 8 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
1.  Bishnat shalowsh lmalkuwt Bel'shatsar, hamelek, chazownnir'ah 'elay 'niy, Daniye'l, 'achrey hanir'ah 'elaybatchilah.
1.  In the third year of the dominion of Bel'shatsar the king; a vision appeared unto me of myself, Daniye'l, after what had appeared to me in the commencement.
2.  Wa'er'eh bechazown.  Wayhiy bir'otiy, wa'niyb-Shuwshan, habiyrah, 'sher b-`Eylam hamdiynah.  Wa'er'ehbechazown: Wa'niy hayiytiy `al- 'uwbal 'Uwlay.
2.  And I saw in a dream-oracle, And it came to pass in my watching, even I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in Elam the province. And I watched in the dream-oracle: and I was by the river of Ulai.
3.  Wa'esa'`eynay wa'er'eh.  Whineh, 'ayil 'echad `omed lipneyha'ubal.  Wlow qranayim.  Whaqranayim gbohowt.  Wha'achatgbohah min- hasheniyt.  Whagbohah `olah ba'achronah.
3.  And I lifted up my eyes and looked, And Behold; one ram, stationed before the river. And it had horns, and the horns were powerful-arrogant. And the latter was the more proud out of the two. And the proud one ascended in the afterwards.
4.  Ra'iytiy 'et- ha'ayil mnageach yamah, wtsapownah,wanegbah.  Wkal- chayowt lo'- ya`amduw lpanayw.  W'eynmatsiyl miyadow.  W`asah kirtsonow whigdiyl.
4.  And I watched the ram butting westward, and northward, and southward. And of all animals none could stand to his face. And nothing was delivered from his hand. And he did according to his desire, and magnified.
5.  Wa'niy hayiytiy mebiyn, whineh, tspiyr- ha`iziym ba'min- hama`rab, `al- pney kal- ha'arets.  W'eyn nowgea`ba'arets.  Whatsapiyr qeren chazuwt beyn `eynayw.
5.  And I was considering, and behold; an he-goat of the kids came from the shadows of the west, over the face of all the land, and not was it touching the ground. And the he-goat had a notable-conspicuous horn between its eyes.
6.  Wayabo' `ad- ha'ayil ba`al haqranayim, 'sher ra'iytiy `omedlipney ha'ubal, wayarats 'elayw bachmat kochow.
6.  And it came over-against the ram, the baal of the two horns which I had seen stationed before the river, and it rushed at him in the fury of its power.
7.  Uwr'iytiyw magiya` 'etsel ha'ayil.  Wayitmarmar 'elayw.Wayak 'et- ha'ayil.  Wayshaber 'et- shtey qranayw.  Wlo'-hayah koach ba'ayil la`mod lpanayw.  Wayashliykehuw'artsah wayirmcehuw.  Wlo'- hayah matsiyl la'ayil miyadow.
7.  And I saw him strike at the side of the ram, and he was moved with choler, and smote the ram, and shattered his two horns. And there was no power in the ram to stand before him, and he cast him down to the ground and stamped upon him. And there was nothing to deliver the ram from his hand.
8.  Uwtspiyr ha`iziym higdiyl `ad- m'od.  Uwk`atsmownishbrah haqeren hagdowlah. Wata`lenah chazuwt 'arba`tachteyha l'arba` ruwchowt hashamayim.
8.  And the he-goat of the kids magnified vehemently, and as he became strong the great horn was broken. And ascended four notable-conspicuous ones, in its place, to the four winds of heaven.
9.  Uwmin- ha'achatmehem yatsa' qeren- 'achat mits`iyrah.  Watigdal- yeter 'el-hanegeb, w'el- hamizrach, w'el- ha-Tsebiy.
9.  And from the one-united of them came forth a horn: one-united mits`iyrah. And it waxed fat toward the south-Negev, and toward the rising sun-Mizrach, and toward the beautiful-Tsebiy.
10.  Watigdal `ad-tsba' hashamayim.  Watapel 'artsah min- hatsaba' uwmin-hakowkabiym watirmcem.
10.  And it magnified unto the army of the heavens, and felled to the earth from some of the army and from some of the stars, and stamped upon them.
11.  W`ad Sar- hatsaba' higdiyl.Uwmimenuw huwram {*} hatamiyd.  Whushlak mkown miqdashow.
11.  Even unto the Sar-Prince of the army it magnified, and from him was taken up the Tamiyd, and was cast down the habitation of his miqdash-body-temple.
12.  Wtsaba' tinaten `al- hatamiyd bpasha`.  Wtashlek 'met'artsah.  W`astah whitsliychah.
12. And an army was given against the Tamiyd through transgression, and it cast down truth to the ground, and it worked and pushed forward.
13.  Wa'eshm`ah 'echad- qadowsh mdaber.  Wayo'mer 'echadqadowsh lapalmowniy hamdaber: `Ad- matay hechazown hatamiyd,whapesha` shomem, tet wqodesh wtsaba' mirmac?
13.  And I heard one holy one speaking, and said another holy one to the Palmowniy wonderful numberer that spake: Until how long is the dream-oracle, the Tamiyd, and the transgression of desolation, to give even the qodesh-holy-sanctuary and the army to be trampled?
14.  Wayo'mer 'elay, `Ad `ereb boqer 'alpayim uwshloshme'owt.  Wnitsdaq qodesh.
14. And he said unto me: Until evening-morning two thousand and three hundred; And shall be cleansed the qodesh-holy-sanctuary.
15.  Wayhiy bir'otiy, 'niy, Daniye'l, 'et- hechazown,wa'baqshah biynah.  Whineh, `omed lnegdiy kmar'eh- gaber.
15.  And it came to pass when I had seen myself, Daniye'l, in the dream-oracle; then sought I for the meaning, and Behold; stationed opposing me to my face: the mirror-image-likeness of a mighty one.
16.  Wa'eshma` qowl- 'adam beyn 'Uwlay.  Wayiqra'wayo'mar: Gabriy'el, haben lhalaz 'et- hamar'eh!
16.  And I heard the voice of a man in the midst of Ulai: and he called out and said: Gabriy'el, make this one to understand the mirror!
17.  Wayabo' 'etsel `amdiy.  Uwbbo'ow, nib`atiy.Wa'eplah `al- panay.  Wayo'mer 'elay: Haben, ben- 'adam,kiy l`et- qets hechazown!
17.  So he came to the side of my station, and in his coming I was terrified, and cast down upon my face. And he said to me: Understand son of man, because for the time of the end is the dream-oracle!
18.  Uwbdabrow `imiy, nirdamtiy `al- panay 'artsah.Wayiga`- biy waya`miydeniy `al- `amdiy.
18.  And in his speaking with me I was comatose upon my face to the ground. And he struck me, and he stood me upright to my station.
19.  Wayo'mer, Hiniy mowdiy`ka 'et 'sher- yihyeh b'achriythaza`am, kiy lmow`ed qets.
19.  And he said: Behold, I make known to you that which shall be in the latter part of the fury, because for the mow`ed-appointment is the end.
20.  Ha'ayil 'sher- ra'iyta ba`al haqranayim, malkeyMaday uw-Parac.
20.  The ram which you saw, the baal of the horns: kings of Media and Persia.
21.  Whatsapiyr hasa`iyr melek Yawan.Whaqeren hagdowlah 'sher beyn- `eynayw, huw' hamelekhari'shown.
21.  And the he-goat, the shaggy-satyr: king of Yavan-Grecia. And the great horn which is between his eyes, he is the first king.
22.  Whanishberet wata`modnah 'arba` tachteyha'arba`, malkuyowt migowy ya`amodnah, wlo' bkochow.
22.  And that being broken; whereas there stood up four in its place: four kingdoms from that nation shall stand up, but not in his power.
23.  Uwb'achriyt malkuwtam, khatem haposh`iym, ya`mod melek`az- paniym, uwmebiyn chiydowt.
23.  And in the latter time of their kingdom, as the transgressions are come to the full, shall stand a king of the countenance of `Az.
24.  W`atsam kochow.  Wlo'bkochow wnipla'owt yashchiyt.  Whitsliyach w`asah.  Whishchiyt`tsuwmiym w`am- qdoshiym.
24.  And mighty is his power, but not by his own power, and wondrously he shall corrupt. And he shall advance and shall do acts. And he shall corrupt the mighty and the holy people.
25.  W`al- siklow whitsliyach mirmahbyadow.  Uwbilbabow yagdiyl.  Uwbshalwah yashchiyt rabiym.W`al- Sar- sariym ya`mod.  Uwb'epec yad yishaber.
25.  And by his wisdom he shall advance craftiness in his hand, and in his heart he shall magnify himself, and through peaceful-prosperity he shall destroy many. And against the Sar-Prince of princes he shall stand, but without hand he is broken.
26.  Uwmar'eh ha`ereb whaboqer, 'sher ne'mar 'met huw'.W'atah ctom hechazown, kiy lyamiym rabiym.
26.  And the mirror-image of the evening and the morning which was told; established truth it is. But you; seal up the dream-oracle because it is for many days.
27.  Wa'niy, Daniye'l, nihyeytiy wnechleytiy yamiym.Wa'aquwm wa'e`seh 'et- mle'ket hamelek.  Wa'eshtowmem `al-hamar'eh w'eyn mebiyn.
27.  And myself; "Daniy'el" had I become, and I was afflicted the days. And then I arose and did the business of the king. And I was desolated over the mirror-image, (of myself) but no one understood.

The phrase "nihyey" is "to have become" and "nihyeytiy" is "I had become" from Daniel 8:27 above. The same Hebrew phrase "nihyey" is found in Deuteronomy 27:9 written as "nihyeytal" and is translated as "have become" by most all of the English translations including the KJV; "nihyeytal" is "thou art become" as shown below:

Deuteronomy 27:9
9.  And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the YHWH thy 'Elohey!

Deuteronomy 27:9 TUA
9.  Waydaber Mosheh whakohniym ha-Lwiyim 'el kal- Yisra'elle'mor, Hacket uwshma`, Yisra'el!  Hayowm hazeh nihyeytal `am la-YHWH 'Eloheyka!

Ezekiel 14:14 also reveals the name change in the man Daniel offered in the translation above. The original Strong's entry for the name recorded in Ezekiel makes note of the slight difference in the spelling of the names Daniye'l and Daniy'el.

Strong's Ref. #1840
Romanized  Daniye'l
Pronounced daw-nee-yale'
in Ezekiel it is: Dani'el {daw-nee-ale'}; from HSN1835 and HSN0410; judge of G-d; Daniel or Danijel, the name of two Israelites:
KJV--Daniel.

Ezekiel 14:14
14.  Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith 'Adonay YHWH.

Ezekiel 14:14 TUA
14.  Whayuw shloshet ha'anashiym ha'eleh btowkah -- Noach, Daniy'el,{*} w-'Iyowb -- hemah btsidqatam ynatsluw napsham, n'um 'Adonay YHWH.

Revelation 2:17
17.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the ekklesias; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


Belshazzar-Belteshazzar was "the other Daniel" and "old man" nature.
Daniye'l was renamed "Daniy'el" the night "Belshazzar" was "slain" …


Re: Baptism is INTO the WORD - Mariam and Maria "the other Mary"
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