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Offline LaSpino3

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Daniel 12:11
« on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 11:10:15 »
Break down each phrase of the following verse. Tell me what you understand each to means. If you're not sure, comment on those you are sure of.

Daniel 12:11, was written when Daniel was almost 90 years old. He had been freed from Babylonian captivity 539 B.C. and was now under the rule of the Medio Persians; and in the 3ed year of king Cyrus, the year 536 B.C. 

1. For context verse 11 begins with the word "And," which would take us back to verses 9-10:

2. "from the time that the daily sacrifice":
What do you think the daily sacrifice is? Obviously it has something to do with the Jews and temple worship.

3. "be taken away"
What's taken away and where is it taken to?

4. "and the abomination that makes desolate set up:"
What is the abomination that is set up? And why would the abomination make whatever it is desolate?

Now two very specific period of time are given, 1290 days: and 1335 Days.

In the context of all of chapter 12, does the word "DAY" speak of literal days, or can they be understood as years?

Laspino 3

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Daniel 12:11
« on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 11:10:15 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 16:14:01 »
Phil, I tend to believe that the Abomination of Desolation is the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, and the 1290 days and 1335 days are somehow related to two dates - when Israel became a nation in 1948, and in 1967 when the Jews took back the temple mount. I've read quite a bit about it as to prophecy, but I haven't reconciled the days (prophetic years) and those dates. I look forward to your comments.

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 16:14:01 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #2 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 13:28:13 »
Jamie, thanks for your thoughtful reply:

The abomination of desolation I also feel is the Dome of the Rock. "The phrase "set up" is one of the keys to solving the whole verse. Set up has several meanings, but I feel in the context of the verse it means to give to another, to permit, to allow. The LORD had established the Temple and worship by the Jews on the land that David purchased for him in 974 A.D. And because of what the Jews did to their Messiah, the LORD had them cast out from the land. Forty years after the crucifixion, He also sent in the Roman armies to destroy the Temple in 70 A.D., and scatter the people to every nation on earth. And in the process of time, the Muslims were allowed by God, temporally to occupy His Holy Place; and to build the Dome of the Rock as we know and see it today. They finishing it in 692 A.D. It shall remain there until the "time of the gentiles is fulfilled." Then Jesus will return and set up his own Temple on Mt. Moriah where He shall rule for 1000 years. 

Now the first key and most important element of the verse is, when was, and what is, "the time that the daily (blood) sacrifice was taken away?" This word daily (means perpetual) and sacrifice always points to the blood sacrifices make unto the LORD by Levites priests. This according to the law laid out in Leviticus.

If you would like to discuss it further, let me know, glad to share my findings with you on the two periods of time laid out, 1290 and 1335. It's been written in scripture since Daniel wrote the book, but hidden by the Lord until now. Why hidden? It wasen't necessary for past generations to know, the thing was meant only for this generation. This is why Daniel was to close the book until the time of the end, and here we are today. I believe it's only now the Lord is revealing these hidden mysteries to some so they can be shared with all christians.

Laspino 3

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #3 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 14:59:59 »
....
« Last Edit: Thu May 03, 2018 - 02:23:04 by TonkaTim »

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #3 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 14:59:59 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 15:22:02 »
Phil, go ahead and share what you’ve got on the 1290 days and the 1335 days. The reference to those number of days has long intrigued me.

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 15:22:02 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #5 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 16:06:28 »
Jamie, I must first lay a foundation before we get into the meat of the subject. I've been working on Daniel for the past few years, and have almost finished what I set out to do. 

We must first examine the word “Days” that are used throughout the book of Daniel. All the visions, dreams, and prophesies speak of days, but years are meant. Let me explain!

Dan.8:13-14, "How long shall be the VISION concerning the daily (eternal) sacrifice (blood offering) and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (by the Gentiles.)" And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred DAYS; then shall the sanctuary (the place where the Holy of Holies once stood) be cleansed."

Let's examine the same word “Days” used in Daniel 12:11-12. Context is of the most importance, as well as a correct timeline.
We will begin with Daniel 8. The sources I used to determine the meaning of the word “Days” are the Hebrew to English dictionary Gesenus, and a Hebrew to English dictionary I personally own published in 1837, and Strong’s concordance # (ISBN O-917006-01-1) and its numbering system.

Two numbers have been assigned to this plural word "days." The first is Strongs # 6153 (ereb) the second is # 1242 (boqer.) 
 
Genenius is a Hebrew to English lexicon uses “ereb” in the literal, and as a metaphor: poetically; also, distributively. Days can refer to "tomorrow" meaning a CONTINUAL march of time, a time ending when there are no more tomorrows.

The other Hebrew word is, boqer # 1242 which have several possibilities. First, it can mean the morning, which peeps or looks out, and separates from the night. But I am sure Daniel is not speaking of a 24 Hour period, or 2300 literal days because of the context in which these verses have been written. They begin with Babylon, move on to the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Holy Roman empire, Muslims, Ottoman, all the way to today. So in any narrative does Daniel speak in days, but years and centuries. 

In Daniel 8, twenty-three hundred 24 Hour days, would be about 6 ½ years. This does not allow enough time for the ram which is the Medes and Persians, the he-goat, Alexander, and the 4 notable horns speaking of his 4 generals who took over after Alexander’s death. He would be succeeded king Seleucid a Greek, who became king over the empire of Greece. He was followed by his son and their sons after.

The 4th beast Rome would follow Greece, who in the 5th century was overrun by the barbarian tribes, who would adopt the doctrines of the Pope. These were followed by the religion of Islam. The Muslims would war for centuries over the whole of the ancient Roman empire. The Muslims from Constantinople, now Istanbul. And the Catholic church from Rome, (the Vatican). The two would war against each other for many centuries.
 
Today, Islam and the Catholic church  together, boast of some 3 billion followers, and between the two, they inhabit all of the ancient Roman empire. All of North and Central Africa; all of the Middle East; Turkey, vast areas of Southern Russia, Greece, Italy, Germany; France; Spain and Great Britain. For the most part both religions possess great wealth, political power, and Islam, if united, would possess a powerful military, especially because Russia would supply them.
 
So these verses speak of a continual series of historical empires and powers that continue throughout the centuries until the return of the Lord at the end of the great tribulation. Therefore, I have concluded “days” refer to years. This agrees with the whole of Daniel’s prophesies beginning with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream found in Daniel 2.
 
“How Long” shall be the vision concerning the "daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation --- to be trodden under foot?" In other words when will it end? 
These verses in Daniel move us forward in history to the time of the family of Antiochus, from 281 B.C. to about 68 B.C. Eventually, the Greek Empire would be defeated by the Romans and pushed back to their original boundaries. He speaks of a 4th beast, the Roman empire which gives birth to many empires to follow. The 4th beast  takes us to the end of the tribulation when the Antichrist is crushed by the appearance of the Lord Jesus.

Throughout the centuries, Israel has been and continues to be trodden under foot by the Gentiles, even to this very day.

Now the second word “boger,” when used as a noun, feminine, means a scourging inflicted with a whip made of a bull's hide, the type of instrument used to scourge Jesus. Also, to dig, cut, bore, lacerate.

In the Talmud “boger” means to visit, to punish. If interpreted in this way, the Jews during this period of 2300 years will be punished by God with the rod of their enemies for the sins committed against their Messiah.

Conclusion, days throughout Daniel speak in terms of years and not days, therefore I have concluded that 2300 days means 2300 years, and 1290 and 1335 days refer to years when the context of both are examined closely.

If you have any questions, let me know, if not,  I'll move on with the 1290 and 1335 years. You will be very surprised how clear and simple their understanding is.

Laspino 3

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #6 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 16:23:11 »
I’m good so far.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #7 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 18:18:45 »
OK, here we go!

Both of us agree that the Dome of the Rock is the abomination of desolation that stands on God's Holy Mountain. In my other post, I spoke of king Nebuchadnezzar going to the temple in Jerusalem and removing the sacred vessels from the holy place, and from the Holy of Holies. It appears  the Ark of the covenant, and the mercy seat were also taken because they were never seen or heard of again. These and many other sacred vessels had been stolen from the sanctuary and put in the house of the Babylonian gods. Without the Ark of the covenant, and the Mercy Seat the worship of Jehovah had no value whatsoever, for it was only on the gold mercy seat that the shekinah glory of God would appear.
 
Also, the Urim and Thummim, generally translated as "lights and perfections" or "revelation and truth" went missing" The Levites priests were disbanded. Now the moment these and other sacred vessels had been carried off by Nebuchadnezzar, the Jews were cut off from God; the year 598 B.C. It had to be at this time in 598 B.C. that the daily (perpetual) (blood) sacrifice was taken away.
 
Jeremiah 6:20, the LORD is speaking, “Your (the Jews) burnt offerings are not acceptable; nor your sacrifices sweet unto me. therefore said the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumbling blocks before this people, and the fathers and sons shall fall upon them.” 

Daniel 12:9-11, “And he (the man who stood upon the waters) said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end (the end means the fulfilment of prophesy). Many shall be purified (reformed), and made white, and tried; (refined); but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Daniel 12:11: “And from the time that the DAILY SACRIFICE (Temple sacrifice) SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY (Nebuchadnezzar removes vessels from the Holy of Holy and carries them off to Babylon in 598 B.C.) and the abomination that makes desolate (the Dome of the Rock in 692 A.D., is) set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

From 598 B.C. to 692 A.D., exactly 1290 Years had passed. Thus fulfilling the first half of the prophesy.

For all my research, when it comes to prophesies concerning Israel and the Jews, I use the Jewish calendar and the Jewish holy days.

"Blessed is he that waits and comes to the (end of) thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou your way till the end be; for you shall rest (die), and stand in your lot at the end of the days." 

What do we do with the remaining 1335 years? Exactly what we did with the 1290 years. If we take the year 692 A.D. when the Dome of the Rock was completed and move forward exctly 1335 Years we arrive on September 22ed 2027, the first day of the Jewish New Year, Yom Kippur. The way I look at it is, if this is correct, then the rapture of the church should come sometime in the year 2019, 7 years before the tribulation., give or take!
Laspino3


Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #8 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 19:44:34 »
I gotta pnder and cipher on that a bit. Thanks Phil.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #9 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 20:39:38 »
Jaime:

I've read most of the commentaries that has been written over the past 400 years, including the new ones concerning this subject. Can't find anyone that will touch some of the verses written in Daniel. Most everyone avoids them like the plague.

When I do this end time research in Daniel I abide by certain rules.
1. They have to fit in the time slot of 605 B.C. the head of gold to these last days; almost 2600 year now.
1. All the empires from Babylon have to had touched the lives of the Jews.
3. Every historical event has to have touched the land, and Jerusalem.
4. For the most part every empire from Babylon forward has to have been an enemy of the Jews, of Jesus and now the Christian community.

The timeline of both years and historical events touches on each of the above. 

Phil

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #10 on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 20:53:39 »
I had always thought that the 1290 years was inclusive in the 1335 or in otherwords the 1335 days (years) ended 45 days (years) following the 1290 days (years), not a totally separate 1335 day (years) stretch.
« Last Edit: Wed May 02, 2018 - 21:04:08 by Jaime »

Online RB

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 05:08:50 »
I've read most of the commentaries that has been written over the past 400 years, including the new ones concerning this subject. Can't find anyone that will touch some of the verses written in Daniel. Most everyone avoids them like the plague.
Phil, briefly let me say a couple of things and will add later. I'll be short since I just lost a longer post by hitting a wrong button.

Commentaries do a good job of confusing~occasionally one can be found that's good, not too often. We MUST seek our understanding from the New Testament~from Jesus, Paul, and John which ALL three spoke concerning Daniel's prophecy.  Scriptures interpret scriptures~interpretation belongs to God, not man.
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 40:8-12~"And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you. And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me; And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes: And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand. And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days:"
This is the interpretation of it~when God's word yields the interpretation, then we can say with all boldness~This is the interpretation of it, we also can say this is not the interpretation, which yours is not.
Quote from: LaSpino  Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 20:39:38
the Dome of the Rock is the abomination of desolation that stands on God's Holy Mountain.
That is absolutely ridiculous, and I might add very bias, because one would HAVE to want to believe that, since there is NO hint of that in Jesus' words, or Paul's or John's, not even the slightest. Sir, New Testament interprets the writings of the OT Prophets  for us. Scriptures are our interpreter...not the newspaper or Judaism, or some false prophet like John Hagee, and others like him. We MUST let the word of God reveals the truth to us, and your understanding of the Dome of the Rock is so far from the truth explained to us by Jesus in Matthew 24 as he interperts Daniel's abomination of desolation. John interprets the numbers 1290/1335 for us in Revelation as the BEGINNING and END of the little season where Satan is loose from the bottomless pit and Christ's coming for judgment upon the wicked.

I'll be back and prove what I have stated~sir, you can never prove that the Dome of Rock as any biblical significant whatsoever, other than a bunch of reprobates fighting over earthy dirt on BOTH SIDES. God's very elects are BOTH Jews and Gentiles, bloodline has not one thing to do with being God's elect.
« Last Edit: Thu May 03, 2018 - 14:53:16 by RB »

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 07:24:20 »
Red, I don't know what John Hagee believes on this issue, but I absolutely believe that the Dome of the Rock is AN abomination and during it's existence, along with the Al Aksa Mosque, the Temple Mount has been void or desolate of any worship of Jehovah. Whether it is THE Abomination mentioned in Daniel, I remain open to discussion. I do believe that prophecy and history are like a hand in a glove, if you will. Yes the Bible reveals some interpretations of prophecy, but Daniel said God had sealed some(prophecies) until the time of the end. Even Sir Isaac Newton, a more prolific Bible Scholar and writer than a Mathematician, in the 1700s predicted in his commentary on The Book of Daniel and the Apocalypse (Revelation), that Israel would somehow be gathered back to the land with the help of a Gentile nation. The manner of which he knew not, but let time be the interpreter.

I believe that Islam is somehow the final anti-Christ institution or power, and how the Dome of the Rock fits into all that, I am still piecing it together. I look forward to your further proofs. I am absolutely open to being wrong on this.
« Last Edit: Thu May 03, 2018 - 07:26:55 by Jaime »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 10:13:15 »
Jamie: I have to go out of town, won't be back until Saturday, if you have any questions or have any thoughts of your own, please share them.

Concerning your comment, "I had always thought that the 1290 years was inclusive in the 1335 or in other words the 1335 days (years) ended 45 days (years) following the 1290 days (years), not a totally separate 1335 day (years) stretch."

I've seen these commentaries myself. They remind me of a person trying to get a round peg into a square hole. They try to stuff these extra days into the 1260 mentioned in Revelation, it doesn't work. But, I suppose if that person had a hammer large enough he may be able to get that round peg in??????????

What has confused many commentators;
In Revelation 12:6, we read, "That they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" meaning 3 1/2 years. I agree with the 3 1/2 years, because it is supported by,

Revelation 12:14, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness,--- where she is nourished for a time, and times and half a time---" again, meaning 3 1/2 years. So, revelation 12:6 is supported by 12:14, no problem.

BUT,
In Daniel 7:25, we read, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws, and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." And in,

Daniel 12:7, we read,  That it shall be for a time, times, and half---."

The big mistake:
People assume the phrase "time, times and half a time" in Revelation has the same meaning as those in Daniel, NOT SO! Let me interpret Daniel for you. I use the Strongs numbering system to show these words "time and times" are different from each other, and have a different meaning from those used in Revelation.

“Time and times and ½ time”)

Daniel 7:25, “And he (2ed beast) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out (#1080 consume and destroy) the saints of the most High, and think to change times (#2166 season and times determined by God) and laws (God’s royal mandate to bring us to Jesus Christ): and they (times and laws) shall be given into his (2ed beasts) hand until a time (# 2166 meaning a season determined by God) and times (# 5732  meaning seasons of probation) and the dividing (# 6387 divided in half) of time (# 5732  ½ the season of probation for the Jews, not the church. A Season, and a time of probation cannot be forced into meaning days, no way. The Hebrew is clear.

Dan.12:7, “And I (Daniel) heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, ---------------- that it shall be for a time (#4150 meaning a set time), times (# 4150 + two set times), and a half (set time); God has established and set the time of the end, and nothing will change that.

R.D. if the Dome of the Rock is not the abomination of desolation that has been "SET UP" where the :DAILY SACRIFICE" WAS ONCE HELD, speaking of the place where the holy place, and the Holy of Holies once stood, then what in your opinion is? These verses in Daniel take us far into Daniel's future, all the way to Daniel 2:41, the "feet and toes of miry clay" note, not potter's clay, but miry clay!

As far as the commentaries I read, on a scale of 1 to 10, I rate them at 1. Why, because most skip over these two dates of 1290 and 1335, or at best make a short comment on them. This has caused me to begin my own investigation on the subject, and what I've found in no way matches up with what' being taught in the pulpits today. 

Laspino3

Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 18:49:36 »
Break down each phrase of the following verse. Tell me what you understand each to means. If you're not sure, comment on those you are sure of.
Daniel 12:11, was written when Daniel was almost 90 years old. He had been freed from Babylonian captivity 539 B.C. and was now under the rule of the Medio Persians; and in the 3ed year of king Cyrus, the year 536 B.C. 
1. For context verse 11 begins with the word "And," which would take us back to verses 9-10:

Context to me is in Dan 12:9, the End Time much like Mat 24:3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
John was shown things from the beginning of the Lord’s Day; this 1000 year reign, and you’ll find many of the things Daniel prophesied even in Dan 7:8 said to be the little horn concerning the man of sin we call the anti-Christ, and the little horn of Dan 8:9 that takes the daily sacrifice away in Dan 8:11.



2. "from the time that the daily sacrifice":
What do you think the daily sacrifice is? Obviously it has something to do with the Jews and temple worship.
3. "be taken away"
What's taken away and where is it taken to?

Being the end time of Dan 12:9, it occurs during the time of Dan 9:27 during the seven years of tribulation, and the middle of that week is 1260 days. The sacrifice taken away at 1290 days prior to the middle of the week means that it has been reestablished at least 30 days prior to the Lord’s Day, it is taken away by the false prophet in Dan 8:11, and then the anti-Christ comes along and makes a covenant with them when he causes the sacrifice and oblation to again be stopped in the middle of the week. Dan 9:27.


4. "and the abomination that makes desolate set up:"
What is the abomination that is set up? And why would the abomination make whatever it is desolate?

The man of sin wants to be honored as God in that time, and thus sets up something similar to that image which Nebuchadnezzar had in Dan 3:5 which was also an abomination.


Now two very specific period of time are given, 1290 days: and 1335 Days.
In the context of all of chapter 12, does the word "DAY" speak of literal days, or can they be understood as years?

 

Only one nation was ever given a year/day counting that I know of and that was Israel in Ezk 4:6 where they’re told:  “. . . I have appointed thee each day for a year, “and most of its prophesy was especially dedicated to the 490 years of the dispersion.

1335 days  - Those waiting Christ’s Revelation (Dan 12:12),  (Isa 25:9)  and  (1 Pet 1:5, 7, 13) .
Now in Dan 12:12 he said” Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Isa 25:9  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:13  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

If this doesn't all fit your thinking, maybe parts of it will get you considering different points of view.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Offline soterion

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #15 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 20:13:54 »
LaSpino3,

I agree with Jaime about the 1335 days being just a 45 day extension to the 1290 days. In addition, you seem to be separating the abolition of the daily sacrifice from the setting up of the abomination of desolation by that 1290 day period, whereas I read it that the two events are together, at the same time.

In other words, the daily offering is ended and the desolation take place in the same context of time, then begins the 1290 days. Daniel then says that those who keep waiting until the extra 45 days take place, or pass, will be blessed, or are blessed.

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 05:02:51 »
Red, I don't know what John Hagee believes on this issue
Larry gave a sum of it above in his post. It's premillennialism with its focus on the nation of Israel in the middle east, which are NOT God children, the promised seed of Abraham. They were not God children in Paul's day, Christ's day, nor in Moses' day~ only a remnant among them was the very elect, since their beginning with Abraham~and their many abominations proved that they were NOT God's elect, children of his promises. God used them to TYPIFY his TRUE Israel of God. Time will not allow me to prove this at the moment, but could easily do so, if needed.

There are children of God (like Larry) that have been deceived into believing this lie. I held to this when I first came to Christ many years ago and was taught this over and over again in one of our nations strongest area of Premillennialist...right on the very buckle of the bible belt and by some of its strongest advocates who lived here during my early days and have since passed on to glory, even with their false understanding~good men in spite of their teaching on eschatology.   

It did not take very long to see that my little fortress of faith has some serious holes in it, so I set out to get my house in order according to God's witness of the truth and got rid of my Scofield reference bible with its corrupt footnotes.

I will add this~that it IS very, very hard to UNLEARN false doctrine once embraced, and ONLY by the grace and power of God are we able to do so.
Quote from: Jaime Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 07:24:20
but I absolutely believe that the Dome of the Rock is AN abomination and during it's existence, along with the Al Aksa Mosque, the Temple Mount has been void or desolate of any worship of Jehovah. Whether it is THE Abomination mentioned in Daniel, I remain open to discussion.
Brother, Let Jesus Christ reveal to us WHAT is the abomination that HE will make desolate, shall we? It is not hard to see ONCE God grants understanding to us from his word.
Quote from: Jesus, the Son of God
Matthew 24:15~When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Brother two things~Jesus said whosoever readeth Daniel then let him understand what he abomination of desolation IS by understanding what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 24.

Brother, the abomination that God will make desolate is NOT a building but someone STANDING in the holy place and as Mark added standing where he OUGHT NOT to stand!  "He" being a collective pronoun as we shall prove later. But in the meantime, until I return consider what Mark added:
Quote from: Mark
Mark 13:14~"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Brother, the key to understanding Daniel is to listen to Christ, Paul (2nd Thess. 2) and John, in 1st John 2;18 and the book of Revelation.  The abomination is NOT an object. etc. but PEOPLE turning the true worship of God into a lie, and adding many additional works of their OWN choosing into the worship of God, and putting to SILENCE the very elect and causing them to take refuge into the mountains....away from false prophets that have taken over the outward professing churches of God.

Later....
« Last Edit: Fri May 04, 2018 - 05:08:46 by RB »

Online Jaime

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #17 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 08:01:26 »
Red, it seems to me that the ghost of Muhammed IS standing where he shouldn’t be standing, as clear as a West Texas morning. Again, i am open as to whether that is THE abomination of Desolation spoken of in Daniel. It IS an abomination and it has coexisted with the Temple Mount being desolate or devoid of Jehovah worship since the 7th century.
« Last Edit: Fri May 04, 2018 - 09:00:37 by Jaime »

Offline BTR

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #18 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 08:37:36 »
Larry gave a sum of it above in his post. It's premillennialism with its focus on the nation of Israel in the middle east, which are NOT God children, the promised seed of Abraham. They were not God children in Paul's day, Christ's day, nor in Moses' day~ only a remnant among them was the very elect, since their beginning with Abraham~and their many abominations proved that they were NOT God's elect, children of his promises. God used them to TYPIFY his TRUE Israel of God. Time will not allow me to prove this at the moment, but could easily do so, if needed.

There are children of God (like Larry) that have been deceived into believing this lie. I held to this when I first came to Christ many years ago and was taught this over and over again in one of our nations strongest area of Premillennialist...right on the very buckle of the bible belt and by some of its strongest advocates who lived here during my early days and have since passed on to glory, even with their false understanding~good men in spite of their teaching on eschatology.   

It did not take very long to see that my little fortress of faith has some serious holes in it, so I set out to get my house in order according to God's witness of the truth and got rid of my Scofield reference bible with its corrupt footnotes.

I will add this~that it IS very, very hard to UNLEARN false doctrine once embraced, and ONLY by the grace and power of God are we able to do so. Brother, Let Jesus Christ reveal to us WHAT is the abomination that HE will make desolate, shall we? It is not hard to see ONCE God grants understanding to us from his word. Brother two things~Jesus said whosoever readeth Daniel then let him understand what he abomination of desolation IS by understanding what Jesus is teaching in Matthew 24.

Brother, the abomination that God will make desolate is NOT a building but someone STANDING in the holy place and as Mark added standing where he OUGHT NOT to stand!  "He" being a collective pronoun as we shall prove later. But in the meantime, until I return consider what Mark added: Brother, the key to understanding Daniel is to listen to Christ, Paul (2nd Thess. 2) and John, in 1st John 2;18 and the book of Revelation.  The abomination is NOT an object. etc. but PEOPLE turning the true worship of God into a lie, and adding many additional works of their OWN choosing into the worship of God, and putting to SILENCE the very elect and causing them to take refuge into the mountains....away from false prophets that have taken over the outward professing churches of God.

Later....

So True.


The devil is wearing his Sunday best.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. -Mrk.13:22

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
-2Co.11:31-15


Online RB

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #19 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 13:12:11 »
Red, it seems to me that the ghost of Muhammed IS standing where he shouldn’t be standing, as clear as a West Texas morning.
My brother, don't you folks have a lot of sandstorms out there/ I believe you are caught up in one at the moment.
Quote from: Jaime Reply #17 on: Today at 08:01:26
It IS an abomination and it has coexisted with the Temple Mount being desolate or devoid of Jehovah worship since the 7th century.
Jaime~Thank God for our NT scriptures written by JEWISH writers who interpret their OT scriptures FOR US if we will let them do it! All we have to do is believe THEM over people's assumptions and hallucinations caused by Jewish fables passed down by false prophets/Judaizers wannabe prophets. 

Must run...later my brother~STAY out of the sandstorms it affects your vision.  ::smile::

Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #20 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 13:52:01 »
Larry gave a sum of it above in his post. It's premillennialism with its focus on the nation of Israel in the middle east, 

There are children of God (like Larry) that have been deceived into believing this lie.


You know RB, I've listened to your put downs of everyone not believing your seemingly complete misunderstanding of scripture concerning end times, and you seem to have become more of a fish out of water sucking for air, or attention in this case.

You mention Hagee which I don't think I've ever heard, and you may be just confusing what I'm saying. Why don't you pick different points I've brought forth one at a time, and we'll see if you really know what you're talking about. Is there some church teaching your point of view is from?

You might attempt to make your point that I'm teaching premillennialism with its focus on Israel, and show me how that's to come about.

Offline fish153

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #21 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 14:28:35 »
I have to say that I am amazed at RED and others when they state that the return of the Nation of Israel to their land in 1948 is not important prophetically.  It is one of the BIGGEST signs that we are definitely in the last days.  It is a literal MIRACLE that Israel is a nation again---it can only be the HAND OF GOD in bringing his people back to their homeland.

For these people to be scattered throughout the world for 2000 years and retain their identity and religjon is MIRACULOUS.  Another thing we MUST look at is the DEAD SEA SCROLLS.  Really think about it for a moment:  these scrolls were hidden in caves for 2000 years. In all that time no one stumbled upon them or found them---as if a Hand was holding them back from doing so, and shielding the scrolls in their hiding place. They were to be found only in GOD'S TIMING.

What a coincidence don't you think?  The Dead Sea Scrolls are hidden for 2000 years----and then a shepherd of goats (just a boy) discovers them in 1947.  Then, coincidence of all coincidences, the Nation of Israel is born ONE YEAR LATER in 1948---after 2000 years of being scattered.  And amazingly what do the scrolls prove to us? They prove that books like Isaiah are virtually the same as they are now---the translation has not changed their meaning in 2000 years.  And these very books which proclaim that Israel WILL ONE DAY RETURN to their homeland are shown to be authentic--hidden for 2000 years but still just as relevant as they have ever been.

But is this just coincidence?  Could both of these amazing things happen just one year apart from one another after 2000 YEARS???  NO-----the finding of those scrolls and the re-birth of the Nation of Israel were timed by God.  I will be quite honest---I am astounded to hear Red and others put no importance to the birth of Israel in 1948.  We are so EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED to be living at a time when we can literally SEE PROPHECY FULFILLED BEFORE OUR EYES.  We see a promise made over 2000 years ago fulfilled---we can point to a map and see that nation that so many have longed for------and so many have scoffed at--saying they would never be restored--Israel.

To deny these things is to be truly blind IMO---God has made these things obvious to any student of prophecy.  To re-unite the Scriptures with the nation of Israel at almost the exact same time is undeniably of the Lord.
« Last Edit: Fri May 04, 2018 - 14:34:19 by fish153 »

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #22 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 15:49:24 »
You might attempt to make your point that I'm teaching premillennialism with its focus on Israel, and show me how that's to come about.
Larry before I post to you, I desire for you to explain to me (maybe I misunderstood your points~ if so, I will gladly apologize to you) your post in more detail concerning where you said:
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #20 on: Today at 13:52:01
"you’ll find many of the things Daniel prophesied even in Dan 7:8 said to be the little horn concerning the man of sin we call the anti-Christ, and the little horn of Dan 8:9 that takes the daily sacrifice away in Dan 8:11.
Again:
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #20 on: Today at 13:52:01
Being the end time of Dan 12:9, it occurs during the time of Dan 9:27 during the seven years of tribulation, and the middle of that week is 1260 days. The sacrifice taken away at 1290 days prior to the middle of the week means that it has been reestablished at least 30 days prior to the Lord’s Day, it is taken away by the false prophet in Dan 8:11, and then the anti-Christ comes along and makes a covenant with them when he causes the sacrifice and oblation to again be stopped in the middle of the week. Dan 9:27.
Again...
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #20 on: Today at 13:52:01
The man of sin wants to be honored as God in that time, and thus sets up something similar to that image which Nebuchadnezzar had in Dan 3:5 which was also an abomination.
Your points are not clearly stated as to exactly what you believe, so maybe I was reading into between the lines, so please help me out and allow me to either agree with you or we can pursue a friendly debate if possible. If I have been rude to you in any way then please forgive me. I DID acknowledge you as a child of God, just a deceive one~at least one of us are for sure and I have been deceived in time past and it is not easy to recover from deception~and we should thank those men who labor in love to help us, even sometimes rebuking us very hard. I well remember my early years how men with the truth humbled me.




Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #23 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 15:55:18 »
Fish, I think it is significant. But I do not understand it as the new doctrine the Dispensationals teach. My understanding is more aligned with the ancients Christians who understood it to be tied to Antichrist.

Example: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm - On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus)

Point 25
"Then he says: "A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass." And who are these but the Romans? Which (kingdom) is meant by the iron — the kingdom which is now established; for the legs of that (image) were of iron. And after this, what remains, beloved, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together? And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them; as Daniel also says (in the words), "I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it." And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews. He says that three horns are plucked up by the root by him, viz., the three kings of Egypt, and Libya, and Ethiopia, whom he cuts off in the array of battle. And he, after gaining terrible power over all, being nevertheless a tyrant, shall stir up tribulation and persecution against men, exalting himself against them. For Daniel says: "I considered the horn, and behold that horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them, till the beast was slain and perished, and its body was given to the burning of fire."


When identifying the Great City, Babylon the Great, why I ask about these verses;

Revelation 18:24a
"And in her was found the blood of prophets"
Luke 13:33b-34a
"for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets"

The testimony of Jesus seems to clearly identify the Harlot.


I was led to a prophecy in Lamentations 4:22
"The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins."

Which seems to say the punishment of Judah is over & transfers to Edom.


Why is this important?
Because Edom became part of Jewry.
They were converted by John Hyrcanus
It is why the Herods were king.
Why they murdered the Hasmoneans.
Why they would have desired to kill Jesus as a child during the slaughter of the innocents.


Why it is quite possible we are seeing is the fulfillment of the prophecy Paul alludes to in Romans 9, which is Malachi 1:
"2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel."


I've spent decades trying to come to another conclusion because I would much rather have any other conclusion because it makes me despised because of this conclusion. No one wants to be despised, especially by people they love. Even tried to convince myself this was fulfilled when Herod the Great, was the great builder. But the lingering problem was "we will return", up till after the destruction & war they had not left to return to build again.

I honestly believe the ancient Christians we're much closer to the truth on this matter than most realise.

Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #24 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 18:33:31 »
Larry before I post to you, I desire for you to explain to me your post in more detail

You attacked my opinion as being deception. I gave my opinion that Dan 12:11 referred to the end time. What about the end time is not clear?

Premillennialism? Maybe we need to address this first. I thought it was you that knew who Jesus' angel was, and I may have confused you with someone else. If not, tell me again please.

Different viewpoints are told us in Revelation from a certain point in time, please explain what the Lord's Day is, and use scripture instead of opinion if you can.

Another point I wrote of is the little horn that takes the daily sacrifice away in Dan 8:11. Is that not the same daily sacrifice written of in Dan 12:11? I'm actually interested in your detailed knowledge of this. Many times if context is not changed due to who is being addressed in scripture, scripture becomes its best answer as to when something occurs.

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #25 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 04:41:18 »
You attacked my opinion as being deception.
Well now, I see that truly bothered you, but if you did not get so upset, you would ahve also seen that I put myself right there with you when I first started out and believed many errors that those men who were much older than I was taught me as a young believer in Christ. Larry, we cannot allow ourselves to be moved by others hard  (though mine was not) attack concerning false doctrine. Yes, we should be merciful, yet standing fast and firm on what we understand to be the truth UNTIL someone can produce some stronger evidence against what we have received as the truth.
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
You attacked my opinion as being deception.
Larry2 I asked for you explain a few things better and you still did not do so, so do not get so upset, if anyone attacks your system, until you present your understand better~you are too vague, maybe I can help you see why I'm saying this.
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
I gave my opinion that Dan 12:11 referred to the end time.
Okay, I believe this also, so that's a step in the right direction, but still one can either believe in the system of Premillennialism, or an Amillennialist, and even being an Amillennialist, one can be an Idealist or Historicist, while saying that Daniel 12:11 refers to the end time.  Unless I have you confused, what I have read from your posts, you believe and teach Premillennialism.
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
What about the end time is not clear?
Really? There's a mass of confusion in this world, in all churches, and all forums, hardly anyone are in agreement.
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
Maybe we need to address this first. I thought it was you that knew who Jesus' angel was, and I may have confused you with someone else. If not, tell me again please.
What I highlighted in red I must say I have no idea what you are talking about...who Jesus' angel was~ What do you mean "who Jesus' angel was"...what significant does this have to do with bible prophecy?
Quote from: Larry2 Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
Different viewpoints are told us in Revelation from a certain point in time, please explain what the Lord's Day is, and use scripture instead of opinion if you can.
Again, what does this have to do with Bible prophecy, not one thing? The Lord's Day in Revelation one has to do with the day he resurrected from the dead. Now the DAY OF THE LORD, is the day he's coming back in judgment upon the wicked and to gather together his elect from the four winds of the heaven! Jesus coming for his elect and the destruction of the wicked and the resurrection of the dead takes place the very SAME day, which is the LAST DAY known to man in this world!
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10~"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Again...
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
We learn from these words of Paul that the DAY of the LORD and the DAY of CHRIST are ONE and the same; and we also learn from Paul's teaching, that tha day SHALL NOT COME except the man of sin be revealed FIRST...so I ask you which comes first in your understanding the man of sin or Christ coming FOR HIS church?  Many say that the church is raptured out three and a half year BEFORE the MAN of sin comes and seven years BEFORE Christ comes in revelation upon the wicked. I believe Paul, not C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers. Again, I ask YOU..WHICH comes first, the man of sin or Christ's coming for believers?

Concerning the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous, they ALL take place the same day, which God's word calls the LAST day, at the LAST trump.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:39,40~"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Again...
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 5:28,29~"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
At the LAST trump, the seventh and FINAL trump of God.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:51,52~"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Simple, is it not? This trump where SAINTS shall be raised takes place when TIME shall be no more, when the old heavens shall be NO MORE!.
Quote from: Job
Job 14:10-12~"But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
God will one DAY fold this world up as one would fold up a garment and this world as we know it shall be passed away and be no more.
Quote
Hebrews 1:10-12~"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
Nevertheless, we look for a new heaven and a new earth. This take place when Jesus comes again to gather together his elect and to destroy the wicked at the LAST trump and the LAST day known to man.
Quote from: Larry2  Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 18:33:31
Another point I wrote of is the little horn that takes the daily sacrifice away in Dan 8:11. Is that not the same daily sacrifice written of in Dan 12:11? I'm actually interested in your detailed knowledge of this. Many times if context is not changed due to who is being addressed in scripture, scripture becomes its best answer as to when something occurs.
I ask you to post now and you show me what the little horn is according to your understanding. I think I know~a hint for now..."little" speak of the TIME of the period that this horn reigns; "horn" speaks of the POWER that God allows him to have in deceiving the world during this SHORT SPACE. The little horn; man OF sin; and the antichrist are ALL ONE and the SAME~and are the very cause of the abominations in Mystery Babylon which has BOTH a religious sector and a commerce sector that comprise Mystery Babylon that we read of in the scriptures commencing at Isaiah 13 and being destroyed in Revelation 18-20. The man of sin is NOT a single individual but multitudes of deceived souls who love unrighteousness more than God, truth and God's promises to those who love him. These deceived souls take OVER the churches of worship, changing the truths of God to their OWN sinful lustful desire WHILE professing to believe in Jesus Christ, saying that HE IS the Christ, but it is another Jesus that they preach; another gospel that they believe in; following another spirit which is NOT the Spirit of God.
« Last Edit: Sat May 05, 2018 - 08:37:03 by RB »

Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #26 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 06:19:46 »
Well now, I see that truly bothered you,

Wrong again. You made a statement in the past something along the line of me maybe being too polite. At least i got your attention it seems. Now let's see if we can come to some conclusions of things to come, and it will be based upon Dan 12:11 and the end times.


2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

I like that, and this might be a good starting point. Just when do you suppose that Day of Christ is. Could it be the Lord's Day? How about the beginning of the millennium?
You said "We learn from these words of Paul that the DAY of the LORD and the DAY of CHRIST are ONE and the same. Can we include the Lord's Day with those?


I ask you to post now and you show me what the little horn is according to your understanding. I think I know~a hint for now..."little" speak of the TIME of the period that this horn reigns.

Which little horn? Him of Dan 7:8  I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, or the little horn of Dan 8:11  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away.


Concerning the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous, they ALL take place the same day, which God's word calls the LAST day, at the LAST trump.

You've got to be kidding, and I'm just having fun with you, but let's get into that later. Thanks for your reply.

Online RB

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 07:02:04 »
You've got to be kidding, and I'm just having fun with you, but let's get into that later. Thanks for your reply
Larry, your post is void of any subtance~I still have no idea what you believe and not sure you do. If you think you are having fun with me, then at least stop playing with a softball and bring a real baseball to the game and see if your fun game will last. Again the ball (baseball, not softball) is in your court.  Post me something that would help me to see your doctrine~As you suggested start with 2nd Thessalonians chapter two.

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #28 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 07:42:50 »
How about the beginning of the millennium?
That begun at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to many scriptures~Acts 2:32-36. Have you never read these scriptures with understanding?

Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #29 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 10:03:09 »
That begun at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to many scriptures~Acts 2:32-36. Have you never read these scriptures with understanding?

Act 2:32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Maybe you should interpret the above scriptures to your thinking.
Scripturally, what do you suppose Jesus to be doing today? I don’t see usurping nations under Him yet. Has Jesus put into effect the all power and authority given Him in Mt 28:18?

Please allow me to ask a critical question at this point; are you into Preterism? Also, is your theology Amillennialism?


Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #30 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 10:30:56 »
Hmmmm, So your saying, the angel said to Daniel, "There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Angel then said, "opps, Sorry, I made a mistake, add 45 more days to 1290 days, ---- that would make it 1335 years, not 1290. That's it, I've got it right now!"

Come on, take a break! Use some ommon sense, if the LORD's message was to be for 1335 and not 1290 the verse would have stated it plain and simple. 

The angel said to Daniel, Paraphrased,

"from the time the vessels of the Temple are taken away beginning in 598 B.C. the daily sacrifice will have been taken away. And from that time beginning in 598 B.C, wait 1290 Years and the Abomination of desolation will be set up, the year 692 A.D. And for you Jews who can maintain your faith from the time Islam sets up that abomination until the LORD Jesus returns in 1335 years from 692 A.D., you will be blessed."

How important were these vessel to the LORD and to temple sacrifice? enough to tken balshazzar's life, and to bring the Babylonian kingdom to an end!

Daniel 5:22, “And thou his (grand) son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart ---;”

Daniel 5:23, “But has lifted up yourself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house (from the Temple in Jerusalem) before thee, and you, and your lords, their wives, and your concubines, have drunk wine in them; and you have praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the (One True) God the God in whose hand your breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:”

Daniel 5:24, “Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.”

Daniel 5:26, “This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered your kingdom and finished it.”

Because the word is spoken twice.   It has been emphasized.  God has numbered your kingdom and finished it.”
 
Daniel 5:27, “TEKEL; You art (have been) weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.” 

Daniel 5:27, “…weighed in the balances, and are found wanting.”

For Belshazzar and his kingdom, it was over. So, “MENE, MENE—God hath numbered your kingdom, and finished it. TEKEL—You’ve been weighed in the balances and you don’t measure up.” 

Daniel 5:28, “PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and the Persians.”

As the king and his guests were in this huge banquet hall in Babylon; where, the Euphrates River flowed right through the center of the city. Unbeknown to the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians had diverted the water away so that the Euphrates going under the wall dried up, and their armies walked in on dry ground and completely surprised and conquered the Babylonians. They had been defeated before sunrise. In that same night Belshazzar was slain.”

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Offline larry2

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #31 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 11:15:44 »
Hmmmm, So your saying, the angel said to Daniel, "There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Angel then said, "opps, Sorry, I made a mistake, add 45 more days to 1290 days, ---- that would make it 1335 years, not 1290. That's it, I've got it right now!"

Come on, take a break! Use some ommon sense, if the LORD's message was to be for 1335 and not 1290 the verse would have stated it plain and simple. 

The angel said to Daniel, Paraphrased,

"from the time the vessels of the Temple are taken away beginning in 598 B.C. the daily sacrifice will have been taken away. And from that time beginning in 598 B.C, wait 1290 Years and the Abomination of desolation will be set up, the year 692 A.D. And for you Jews who can maintain your faith from the time Islam sets up that abomination until the LORD Jesus returns in 1335 years from 692 A.D., you will be blessed."


With no quote, I have no idea if your response was to me, but I'll just paste a teaching by my friend Gene Hawkins that I transcribed from tapes that I like. The 1290 days begin before the tribulation up until the middle of the week, whereas the 1335 days (not years) affect those waiting Christ's Revelation at the end of the tribulation. Dan 12:12 - Isa 25:9 - 1 Pet 1:5, 1 Pet 1:7, 1 Pet 1:13.

Here is Gene Hawkins' teaching:

"Daniel 12:12. "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." Now then what are those days? Well those are the days that everything is done and Christ is absolutely reigning as soul ruler with dominion over the world. This time in this verse amounts to seventy-five days beyond the three and one-half reign of the antichrist, and by that time Christ is fully in place and Israel is fully in the driver's seat in so far as being the head of the nations, so "Blessed is he that waiteth" and you can compare that with Matthew 24:13 and it says it this way. "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," and there are those that like to say see there, you have to hold out faithful to the end. No, that's not what He's talking about; he that endures to the end of that time is the same time we're talking about right here. "He that shall endure unto the end" is the same as "Blessed is he that waiteth" and is that remnant of the Jews that is going to go all the way through the tribulation period or the time of Jacob's trouble. They will come out on the other side and indeed they will be blessed because they are the ones who will be the nucleus of the nation of Israel from which God is going to build this kingdom of priests that are going to minister to the rest of the nations."

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #32 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 13:35:37 »
Larry, nothing this guy Hawkins writes fits in with the context of Daniel 11, read it, then move into chapter 12. Why would the book be closed if they were already in the last days or last 7 years? So what this guy is saying is, the 1290 and 1335 days are just extra periods of time lift over from the 1260 days, so, let's add the extra days 30 and 45 together, and that's the answer, 75? Square peg, round hole.

That nonsense is all over the internet, I read them all, they don't fit into Daniel's long term prophesies. 

What's the daily sacrifice he's taking about? It has to stand for something concerning the Temple sacrifice. There's no temple. The Muslims will never give up that ground where the Dome sits. Also, there's no Ark of the Covenant, no mercy seat or sacred vessels, no Levite High Priest. You can't have animal sacrifices unto God because Jesus closed that period out. Any sacrifices made by the Jews would have absolutely no value whatsoever even if they practiced them.  Yea, the Jews can go through the motions with false priests and vessels that are not sanctified, but aren't the vessels Daniel's speaking of.

Read my post again, read it carefully, and if you don't agree, I understand.
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Online RB

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #33 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 15:14:33 »
Please allow me to ask a critical question at this point; are you into Preterism?
Larry, all you have to do is go to the Preterist forum here and you will get your answer. Not even close to being a Preterist.
Quote from: Larry Reply #29 on: Today at 10:03:09
Also, is your theology Amillennialism
I'am~known in the school of Biblical Eschatology  as an Idealist Amill. Much like Augustine who lived 1700 plus years ago shortly after the apostles. His City of God section on Revelation 20 is pretty much my understanding of it as well.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Daniel 12:11
« Reply #34 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 15:47:22 »
Larry, all you have to do is go to the Preterist forum here and you will get your answer. Not even close to being a Preterist. I'am~known in the school of Biblical Eschatology  as an Idealist Amill. Much like Augustine who lived 1700 plus years ago shortly after the apostles. His City of God section on Revelation 20 is pretty much my understanding of it as well.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm - The City of God (Book XX) Augustine

RB , if you don't mind I thought I'd link Augustine on the matter & point out that the Amill position goes back to the beginnings of Christianity. It is a very ancient & orthodox Christian doctrine. Why I'm always suprised when Dispensationalists act like Amill is a new unorthodox teaching & when what they teach is actually the new doctrine.