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Author Topic: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)  (Read 28713 times)

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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 03:16:16 »
Thanks for that clarification Wycliffes Shillelagh. I thought he was making a number of unsubstantiated statements. i.e : How did these "Few Kenites" survive ? How many are a "Few" ? Bear in mind that there were only 8 survivors on board the ark.  Not very many "Kenites" would have to survive in order for them to constitute a majority. I don't think any "Kenites" survived, unless the descendants of Ham can be said to be "Kenites".

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #70 on: Thu Jul 08, 2010 - 03:16:16 »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #71 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 14:11:16 »
kenties had to have survived, simply because they are mentioned in God's word after the flood
and are even counted among the Jews, deceitfully
i think their first mention after the flood is in 1Chr2:55

it is up to us to make this fact fit our theology



and the descendants of the sons of God were wiped out in the flood...their attempt to detroy the pure seedline from Adam(Seth) to Christ

but the sons of God must have come back and replenished their seed,
and attacked Israel and the seedline again and again.....
as there are giants mentioned again in the Word, after the flood,
as alluded to in Gen6 itself


the "few kenites" survival was probably based on them being flesh
and God saying to bring 2(pairs) of every flesh into the ark (7 unclean pairs)

so the kenties might have survived that way...it is a possibility

but the fact is that they DID survive the flood, as scripture will testify to, if not specifically.




kenite means descendant of Cain...not Ham


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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #71 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 14:11:16 »

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #72 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 18:31:01 »
I am well aware that Kenite means descendant of Cain. I am also aware that Lilith, (Adam's first wife before Eve), Cain, and Ham were all black, as were Lamech and Enoch himself. The pairs refers to various kinds of animals, not humans as far as I know. Further, the "Fallen Angels" were white though they landed amoung, and enslaved black people.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:25:54 by JHM »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #73 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 18:42:16 »
I am well aware that Kenite means descendant of Cain.

ok good

Quote
I am also aware that Lilith, (Adam's first wife before Eve), Cain, and Ham were all black, as were Lamech and Enoch himself.


completely false...there is no lilith...there is no first wife before eve....lol

Quote
The pairs refers to various kinds of animals, not humans as far as I know.


the scriptures read all flesh. men are flesh

Quote
Further, the "Fallen Angels" were white though thet landed amoung and enslaved black people,

says who?

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #73 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 18:42:16 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:11:17 »
Is that so ? Well Lilith is mentioned once in the Bible, once in the Dead sea scrolls, once in the Gilgamesh epic, and five times in the Talmud. So I tend to believe in her. Doubt if Cain is mentioned any more than that. As for "Says who ?" Read the Book of Enoch (Archbishop Laurence Translation). And as for "All Flesh" that is in my opinion a very warped interpretation of that passage, bearing in mind that Noah took his wife, his three sons and their three wives with him aboard the ark. Don't they count ?

LAMECH in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)Here Lamech, the son of Methushael, is named as the last of the descendants of Cain. He was the father of Jabel, Jubal, Tubal-cain, and Naamah. ...

How did Adam wind up with a black son if Lilith didn't exist ?
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:34:47 by JHM »

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #74 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:11:17 »



Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #75 on: Fri Jul 09, 2010 - 19:28:27 »
I do not consider Enoch scripture

Lilith is NOT mentioned in the Bible

it is a bad fable...an addition to belittle God's works

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #76 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 00:16:30 »
You don't know what you are talking about. Try Isaiah 34 : 14. It is not my fault that your error riddled King James has translated her name as "Screech Owl" and the Revised Standard calls her "Night Hag" and the New American Standard has translated her name as "Night Monster" while the NIV calls her "Night Creatures"; BUT the Jerusalem Bible, The Darby Bible and the New Revised Standard have it right and call her "Lilith:". Look up "screech owl" in Strong's" and find out what the original word that they translated to be "Screech Owl" was, why don't you huh ?

Strong's  "Screech" :  Isa 34 : 14 the s' owl also shall rest there, *3917

Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary 3917 : liyliyth. lee-leeth ; from 3915; a  night spectre : - screech owl.

She and Adam fought over who got to be "On Top" - "Night Monster, Night Hag, Night Spectre, Screech Owl" -- GET IT ?

While you are at it read Leviticus 16, then look up "scapegoat" in Strong's
See Leviticus 16 : 7 - 10 (King James Version)
Leviticus 16 : 7 - 10 :   And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
              
   See Strong’s Main Concordance : “Scapegoat
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 17:37:53 by JHM »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #77 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 03:24:27 »
I will highlight the MEANINGS of each of the different words for owl, in Isaiah 34
2 are all plainly speaking of animals ie. unclean birds...not a woman named lilyth
one is speaking of a positive coveted relationship,
and one is speaking of a condition of re-coiling or springing forward

none speak of this so called individual woman named lilyth
and the chapter certainly does not convey the thought of her at all...

someone has lied to you

3244
yanshuwph
yan-shoof'
 or yanshowph {yan-shofe'}; apparently from 'nashaph' (5398); an unclean (acquatic) bird; probably the heron (perhaps from its blowing cry, or because the night-heron is meant (compare 'nesheph' (5399)))):--(great) owl.s

 

that's the owl from verse 11...clearly not a woman



1323
 bath
bath
 from 'banah' (1129) (as feminine of 'ben' (1121)); a daughter (used in the same wide sense as other terms of relationship, literally and figuratively):--apple (of the eye), branch, company, daughter, X first, X old, + owl, town, village.


that's owl from the 13th verse, and it is not speaking of lilyth here either


here is the one you think means lilyth, a woman's proper name from Isaiah34:14

3917
 liyliyth
lee-leeth'
 from 'layil' (3915); a night spectre:--screech owl.


this owl, finds  place of rest, in this symbolic look at the Lord's Day
it is not a proper name lilyth....

now, the name lilyth does mean owl/bird/night spectre...

but the owl in this case is just a bird, not lilyth

there is nothing in the actual text to suggest that this means lilyth as you think.
this is clearly an end time scripture.....meant to be understood that way...
there is no teaching of Adam and Lilyth here....

and just so you know, the word "screech" is an addition, and is not in the manuscripts




all 3 uses of owl so far in Isaiah 34 mean unclean bird....none mean lilyth,

even if one of the words seems similar to the proper name lilyth,
it still means what it means, which is a night spectre, according to Strong's
not a proper name of a fictional character


we have another word translated as owl as well in Isaiah verse15

7091
 qippowz
kip-poze'
 from an unused root meaning to contract, i.e. spring forward; an arrow-snake (as darting on its prey):--great owl.


it seems that 4 times the word owl is used in this chapter, and all 4 times the word is a different word...
and none of them MEANS lilyth

simply read the scripture....

where would you suggest in Isaiah 34,
that there would be a teaching that would convince me
that owl meant the proper name of a fictional bible character?
 

 

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #78 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 04:25:05 »
Interesting : "A daughter"; "Feminine"; "Company" - for Adam; "First". If you don't get it by now you never will.

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (Jerusalem Bible)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : Wild cats will meet hyenas there, the satyrs will call to each other, there too will Lilith take cover seeking rest.

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (Darby Translation)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : And there shall the beasts of the desert meet with jackals, and the wild goat shall cry to his fellow; the lilith g also shall settle there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Note g : Or "night spectre"

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (New Revised Standard Version)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : Wildcats shall meet with hyenas, goat-demons shall call to each other; there too Lilith shall repose, and find a place to rest.

See also the "Forward" to the Revised Standard Version

"The King James Version of the New Testament was based on a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Besa, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based on a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly recieved text.; Besa had access to two manuscripts of great value dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus."

Regretably it doesn't say what the King James Version of the Old Testament was based on, though I doubt it was any better. The King James has a habit of "Translating" words that are NOT meant to be translated. e.g. "Giants" for "Nephilim" in Genesis 6 : 4 ; "Scapegoat" for "Azazel" in Leviticus 16 : 8, 10, & 26 ; "Screech Owl" for "Lilith" in Isaiah 34 : 14
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 10:12:05 by JHM »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #79 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 12:49:44 »
ok, it seems that you are not understanding something rather important...

context of the passage...

is there a teaching in there that has anything to do with Adam or any individual person? answer is no

Isaiah 34 just does not actually teach anything about lilyth

you assume because the greek word for night spectre is used, (lilyth) that it is the supposed woman lilyth...
when the context shows that is just not the case at all.
nothing in the chapter leads one to that conclusion...
and God would not just randomly mention or insert a persons name, without a reason
especially a person that has never been mentioned before in the bible


there is NO reason for any named individual to be in Isaiah34...
the word does not mean her...it means night spectre

and that fits the context perfectly, where as lilyth meaning a proper name, just does not

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #80 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 13:12:23 »
Umm, Lilith is a myth...she is a Babylonian myth that the Hebrews adopted during their captivity...and no, she is not mentioned in the Bible...not unless you purposely mistranslate one small verse (Is 34:!4)...the hebrew word for "night bird" is the same as "night demon" the Hebrew word is "Liyliyth" which is sometimes transliterated rather than translated at "Lilith."

Lilith was a Babylonian demon, not Adam's first wife.

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #81 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 13:37:02 »
I could insert the article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but what is the point ? Those who are willfully blind shall remain so. And you still have not explained how Adam, (Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary entries 119, 120, 121, & 122) which means amoung other things "Ruddy", "Rosy Red", "To flush or turn rosy", wound up with one white son, Seth; one red son, Abel; and one black son, Cain: if he only ever had one wife. Note too that Cain was older than Abel, (Lilith was Adam's FIRST wife, remember ?).
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 14:58:38 by JHM »

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #82 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 17:01:53 »
I could insert the article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but what is the point ? Those who are willfully blind shall remain so.


Well, you sure got that right!  here is the article:

Quote
female demon of Jewish folklore; her name and personality are derived from the class of Mesopotamian demons called lilû (feminine: lilītu). In rabbinic literature Lilith is variously depicted as the mother of Adam’s demonic offspring following his separation from Eve or as his first wife, who left him because of their incompatibility. Three angels tried in vain to force her return; the evil she threatened, especially against children, was said to be counteracted by the wearing of an amulet bearing the names of the angels. A cult associated with Lilith survived among some Jews.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/341009/Lilith

bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #83 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 17:23:06 »
I got my article from Britannica some years ago; and it is somewhat more detailed. Also found a very detailed article to day; but like your Britannica it has a number of different versions, one of which supports what I am saying. I also checked with one of the "Experts" at the "Bible Scholars Forum", here is what he said :

as to your question about Isaiah 34:14 --
 
the Hebrew literally reads LEELEETH, which doesn't translate out to be "screech owl."  that is merely an applied definition - maybe right, but not definitely.  literally what it translates out to mean is rather strange.  it literally means "feminine night", or perhaps a more dynamic route, "female of the night", as the term is simply the Hebrew for "Night," but with a feminine ending attached.  in this sense, it does seem to support the idea for a demonic entity, but in the end, the literal meaning doesn't actually translate as anything necessarily demonic.  that comes from much later Rabbinic application, so is rather tautological in meaning.  the Peshitta AN"K chose merely to transliterate the term in to Aramaic, yielding Leeleetha, which doesn't help in figuring out the meaning at all.
 
Interestingly, however, the term preceding it, usually translated as "satyr" or "shaggy goat," is also understood to be demonic goat entity in Hebrew, so perhaps there is some manner of validity in looking at the entire verse as referencing demonic creatures.  i honestly don't know, so i personally wouldn't teach it as such, but rather i would throw the possibility out there in light of the language allowances, and let the individual make up their minds for themselves.
 
as for the other two terms, which come first in the verse, which are TZEE'YEEM and EE'YEEM, they refer to some unknown type of creatures, but the meanings of those specific terms are "dry ones," and "howlers," respectively.

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #84 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 18:46:34 »
JHM, not sure where you are getting your info from (you did not cite it), but I already posted what came from Strong's Concordance and the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Bottom line, your fancy fonts do not make you right.  

According to Strong's Concordance (a much better source than your "scholars") the hebrew word liyliyth literally means "night bird" or "night demon" thus, contrary to a few blog posts, the KJV, while not the best rendering in today's english is still valid.  Frankly, if you study the enlish languange from the 16th and 17th century, you will see it was an accurate rendering in the venacular.

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #85 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 19:16:01 »
You seem to be a nice guy. Shame you are blind on this one. Still evading the question : How did Adam wind up with the racially mixed sons that he did too.

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #86 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 19:33:57 »
You seem to be a nice guy. Shame you are blind on this one. Still evading the question : How did Adam wind up with the racially mixed sons that he did too.

Thank you, I am also a little confused.  I used God's Word, Strong's Concordance and the Encylopedia Brittanica.  Please explain how I am blind?

Also, I did not evade anything, I merely chose not to address it as it is not found in Scripture.  If you provide me with a scritpure that shows Adam's kids were racially mixed, I will address the issue.

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #87 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 20:41:20 »
It is in the Book of Enoch. Re not quoting sources, I seem to recall I quoted the New Revised Standard Version The Jerusalem, and the Darby Translation; all of which say "Lilith" and the Darby says lilith HERSELF. But some people seem to think the King Jimmie is the be all and end all. Me, I give it this : It is the most linguistically beautiful English translation extant. But it is also chock full of errors. The Jerusalem on the other hand, I have found to be overall, the best, (most accurate), of the 7 different translations I have, with the New Revised Sandard running second, and the Darby third. And it isn't just this stuff I am speaking about.

I first read the Revised Standard cover to cover and became convinced it is all real because someone very long ago knew far more about the future than any human being had any business knowing. I then read the Jerusalem cover to cover taking notes; the Bible is a very scattered book, and you will find references to the same, or related subjects here there and everywhere. I took notes using topic headings. i.e. God in Man, Urim & Thummin, Babylon, earthquakes, darkness, status of nations, Joseph in Egypt, booths, giants, God rides through heaven, Fate of non Jews, election of Israel, Further description of GOD, Liquid Core of the earth, wisdom and understanding, righteousness, Nuclear winter, Nazism Forewarned ?, Israel Highest mountain, Fate of the Devil and his children, No dawn for them, end of extortion, Hail, Distribution of message, Language of leaning - No longer spoken, arm of the Lord , etc. etc. Listing every reference that I found to each subject I used as a heading.

Having done that I then began reading it cover to cover again, this time comparing 7 different versions on a verse by verse basis. As already stated, I found the Jerusalem to be overall the most accurate, the NEW Revised Standard second best, and the Darby third best.

As for fancy fonts, I make it a point to put my words and GOD'S words in different fonts, so there will be no confusion between the two.

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #88 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 20:47:46 »
I am passed the subject of lilith.  I already told you that some have transliterated the Hebrew word instead translating it.  Nice try at evasion though.

I want you to quote the scriptures that show Adam had racially mixed children.

I will bow out of the thread until you do.  Have a great night!

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #89 on: Sat Jul 10, 2010 - 23:16:15 »
Umm, Lilith is a myth...she is a Babylonian myth that the Hebrews adopted during their captivity...and no, she is not mentioned in the Bible...not unless you purposely mistranslate one small verse (Is 34:!4)...the hebrew word for "night bird" is the same as "night demon" the Hebrew word is "Liyliyth" which is sometimes transliterated rather than translated at "Lilith."

Lilith was a Babylonian demon, not Adam's first wife.

Bond

According to Strong's Concordance (a much better source than your "scholars") the hebrew word liyliyth literally means "night bird" or "night demon"

Strong's  "Screech" :  Isa 34 : 14 the s' owl also shall rest there, *3917

Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary 3917 : liyliyth. lee-leeth ; from 3915; a  night spectre : - screech owl.

NOTE : Strong's does not say anything about either "Night Bird" or "Night Demon"; though it does give a root trace to 3915.
See Strong's 3915 : layil, or Isa 21 : 11 leyl, also laylah : from the same as 3883; prop. a twist (away of the light), i.e. night; fig. adversity: --([mid-]) night (season).

She and Adam fought over who got to be "On Top" - "Night Monster, Night Hag, Night Spectre, Screech Owl" -- GET IT ?

NOTE ALSO : Of the seven different translations I have, only the "King Jimmie" refers to "Lee-Leeth" as a bird. Of the others, three flat out say "Lilith"; and one of them adds "Night Spectre" as in some sort of demon. Of the remainder, one says "Night Hag" which would indicate some sort of unpleasant female; and another says "Night Monster". Only the NIV sits uncommitted with it's "Night Creatures".

NOTE FURTHER : If "Qayin" can be translated as "Cain" without "Transliterating" the word, then why can "Lee-Leeth" not be said to be the original spelling of "Lilith" without "Transliteration" ? (other examples too numerous to mention also available).

female demon of Jewish folklore; .... In rabbinic literature Lilith is variously depicted as the mother of Adam’s demonic offspring following his separation from Eve or as his first wife, who left him because of their incompatibility. Three angels tried in vain to force her return;

NOTE : Since the Bible says nothing about Adam and Eve ever separating, I take that part to be erronius. Re the "Fighting" over who got to be "On Top" during sex, See : The Encyclopedia Judaica, or older versions of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Encyclopedia Judaica :

LILITH, a female demon assigned a central position in Jewish demonology. She appears briefly in the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic ...

A transmuted version of this legend appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a Midrash of the geonic period, which sets out to explain the already widespread custom of writing amulets against Lilith. Here she is identified with the "first Eve," who was created from the earth at the same time as Adam, and who, unwilling to forgo her equality, disputed with him the manner of their intercourse. Pronouncing the Ineffable Name, she flew off into the air. On Adam's request, the Almighty sent after her the three angels Snwy, Snsnwy, and Smnglf; finding her in the Red Sea, the angels threatened that if she did not return, 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused, claiming that she was expressly created to harm newborn infants. However, she had to swear that whenever she saw the image of those angels in an amulet, she would lose her power over the infant. Here the legend concerning the wife of Adam who preceded the creation of Eve (Gen. 2) merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in childbirth.

Lilith is identified as a demon in the Dead Sea Scrolls (11QpsAp). The name Lilith was also inscribed on incantation bowls of Sassanian Babylonia. Although such bowls were not an exclusively Jewish phenomenon, some invoke rabbinic divorce formulas to exorcise demons. Belief in her erotic powers led some Jewish communities to adopt the custom of sons not accompanying their dead father's body to the cemetery because they would be shamed by the hovering presence of their demon step-siblings, born of their father's seduction by Lilith.

NOTE : The second of the two foregoing quotations is but one of MANY different explanations of "Lilith" presented in the Encyclopedia Judaica; but it is the one I believe to be correct. I also have the older version of the Encyclopedia Britannica floating around somewhere. NOTE ALSO : It is very easy to make misstatements, and very difficult to refute them. If you weren't what I regard to be a nice guy, I would not bother. NOTE FURTHER : Jeremy C. Springfield, (My "Expert"), is quite familiar with ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and is currantly engaged in doing a "Literal English Translation" of the "Peshitta" wherein he compares it verse by verse to the various Greek versions extant. He is probably as knowledgeable as was James H. Strong; but has the advantage of access to many more recently found ancient documents.

Finally, with repect to the racial characteristics of the sons of Adam, See :

See Book of Enoch 84 (Archbishop Laurence )
NOTE : The Book Says : A Reprint From An Edition Edited, With Variations, And Published By John Thompson, Glasgow 1882  - Published By Artisan Sales - Copyright 1980 - Library Of Congress Catalogue Card Number 80-86736) Having checked online versions of the Laurence Enoch, I conclude that the parts in brackets are additions by the publisher; though I regard them as being accurate explanatory notes.

Enoch 84 : After this I saw another dream. And explained it all to thee, my son. Enoch arose and said to his son Mathusalah: To thee, my son will I speak.;  Hear my word and incline thine ear to the visionary dream of thy father. Before I married thy mother Edna, I saw a vision on my bed; and beheld a cow sprung forth from the earth (cattle a symbol of mankind – Ezek 34 22); And this cow was white. Afterwards a female heifer sprung forth; and with it another heifer; one of them was black and one was red. The black heifer then struck the red one, and pursued it over the earth. (Cain killed Able) From that period on I could see nothing more of the red heifer; but the black one increased in bulk, and a female heifer came with him. (Cain married Sister Awan) After this I saw that many cows proceeded forth, resembling him, and following after him. The first female young one also went out in the presence of the first cow; and sought the red heifer; but found him not. And she lamented with a great lamentation, while she was seeking him. Then I looked until that first cow came to her, from which time she became silent, and ceased to lament. Afterwards she calved another white cow. (Seth) And again calved many cows and black heifers. In my sleep also I perceived a white bull, which in like manner grew, and became a large white bull. After him many white cows came forth, resembling him. And they began to calve many other white cows, which resembled them and followed each other. (Noah’s family)
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 11:20:17 by JHM »

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #90 on: Sun Jul 11, 2010 - 09:08:59 »
JHM, your post above is complete bunk, lacking any support whatsoever to prove lilith was real.  Your statement about translations is FALSE as I already proved.  As I said, the argument about lilith is over.  You are avoiding the main issue:

Provide scriptures that prove adam had racially mixed children.

I know it is incorrect and I know you cannot prove it.  Just as you cannot prove lilith was adam's first wife.

You mock me claiming I am blind merely because I will not listen to your myths.  You I am done discussing with you.  

I know you will want the last word and that is ok.  I am not going to waste any more time on your myths.

Bond

« Last Edit: Wed Jul 14, 2010 - 07:52:34 by BondServant »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #91 on: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 00:06:26 »
I could insert the article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but what is the point ? Those who are willfully blind shall remain so. And you still have not explained how Adam, (Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary entries 119, 120, 121, & 122) which means amoung other things "Ruddy", "Rosy Red", "To flush or turn rosy", wound up with one white son, Seth; one red son, Abel; and one black son, Cain: if he only ever had one wife. Note too that Cain was older than Abel, (Lilith was Adam's FIRST wife, remember ?).
I have had to combat this racist line of thought before...not saying that you are
but your information is tainted...

let me first say....

I believe that mankind was created on the 6th day (1 day to God is as a 1000 years)

I believe that God then rested on the 7th day or 1000 years

and then after that, I believe that God formed Adam and from him Eve....and the garden

so their formation could have been 10000-2000 years after the other mankinds
that were created on the 6th day (red, yellow, black, other white, whatever)

but I believe Adam and Eve were white...
the ruddy complected, blushable face, seems to show that





however, I have no idea how you could have ever determined that Abel was red
and that Cain was black
(I have heard that some folks think Canaan was black,
and in thwarting that thought, I will use the same proofs to thwart your thoughts.


first off, Cain and Abel were twins and had the same mother  Eve,
and different fathers...
this is quite possible in humans and actually common in cats.

Adam fathered by his seed, Abel
I'll let you figure out who Cain's father actually is


but anyway, Eve continued in labour (again, see the Strong's) and bore Abel in the same pregnancy as Cain's birth...
so twins...simple
their offering to God was at the same time, so twins

they were both white IMO..nothing to suggest otherwise


and we learn that Noah was chosen by God because he was still perfect in his generations...pure...
he had not yet mixed with the offspring of the falllen angels and adamic women

it seems most everyone else had...
as it took Noah 500 years to have his first kid and marry another pure adamic perons

the ones before this did so in 100 or so years...but it took Noah 500

so, IOW, since Noah is still pure in His generations, then Seth was too

there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the other 2 brothers were not also white...
although one of them was of mixed angelic blood...again, I'll let you figure that one out yourself!



« Last Edit: Tue Jul 13, 2010 - 00:19:23 by zeke13 »

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #92 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 15:05:50 »
As I stated before, it is very easy to make misleading statements; but very difficult to refute them, especially when said statements are posts at a website that reduces the size of any photographed documents which are in excess of 700 pixels wide, thereby rendering those documents illedgible. For this reason it has taken me a fair while, and a lot of work to respond to the previous posts.

Someone claimed that he had posted "Proof" that the word "Liyliyth" means "Night Demon" or "Night Bird" according to Strongs exhaustive concordance; and that to ascribe the meaning of "Lilith" to that word is "complete bunk"; and that there is no "scriptural evidence" that Adam had racially mixed children. Well I beg to differ as I have found a considerable amount of evidence to the contrary. So much, in fact that it will take a series of posts to enter it all. With that for a lead in, here are my findings on Lilith. Be it noted that the most compelling evidence is reserved for the last few posts in the series.

The Jerusalem Bible mentions Lilith not once but twice.

Isaiah 34 : 12 - 14 (Jerusalem Bible)



Note the cross references to Job 18 : 15 and Baruch 4 : 35.

Job 18 : 5 - 17 (Jerusalem Bible)



Baruch 4 : 30 - 35 (Jerusalem Bible)



Note the similarity of the prophecies in Isaiah 34 and Baruch 4. -  Fire Burning for a long time, demons dwell there.

More to follow

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #93 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 15:22:03 »
As regards someone saying he had posted "Proof" that "Liyliyth" meant "Night Demon" or "Night Bird" according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, See :



Link to foregoing document : http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3917



Link to foregoing document : http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3915



Link to foregoing document : http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB39.htm



Link to foregoing document : http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/liyliyth.html

But so far that only shows that Strong's does not refer to "Liyliyth" as a "Night Bird".

More to follow.

« Last Edit: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 20:55:52 by JHM »

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #94 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 15:43:20 »
For evidence suggestive that my interpretation MAY be correct, See :

Encyclopedia Judaica







Link to foregoing document : http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0013_0_12540.html

Link to another similar document : http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html

More to follow.

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #95 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 16:01:09 »
Ok, so what you posted backs up what I said.

The definitions you posted are the definitions I posted.

What about the BIBLICAL EVIDENCE that Adam had racially mixed children?

So far you have produced nothing to back up your assertions that the Bible states Adam had a first wife called lilith and that he had racially mixed children.  How many times have I asked for scriptural evidence?  I've lost count.  You have proven nothing.

The Bible uses the word Hebrew word "liyliyth" but not to refer to the character in Jewish mythology.  I am not arguing about Jewish mythology.  I've studied it just as much as you have and agree they believe that Lilith was Adam's first wife.  However there is no scriptural evidence to support this.  Until you quote the passage of the Bible that states Lilith was Adam's first wife and that Adam had raciall mixed children, you will not have any ground to stand on.

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #96 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 16:08:49 »
Wikipedia also has something to say about Lilith. I usually refer to "Wikipedia" as "Wicked-Pedia" because they very frequently have things wrong; but in this case they seem to have done better than usual.

Wikipedia on Lilith



Link to foregoing document : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

NOTE : "The Alphabet of Ben Sira is considered to be the oldest form of the story of Lilith as Adam's first wife. Whether this particular tradition is older is not known. Scholars tend to date the Alphabet between the 8th and 10th centuries AD. (The attribution to the sage Ben Sira is considered false, with the true author unknown.) The amulets used against Lilith that were thought to derive from this tradition are in fact, dated as being much older. "

So if in fact these amulets used against Lilith are "MUCH OLDER:" than the date ascribed by "Scholars" to the "Alphabet of Ben Sira", and they clearly are much older, then the "Scholars" must be wrong about the dating of the "Alphabet of Ben Sira", unless there was at one time a much older version saying the same thing, which the "Alphabet" was derived from, that is no longer extant.

More to follow


Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #97 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 16:28:20 »
But so far all this simply is "Suggestive" that Adam MAY have had a first wife named "Lilith". What about "proof" ? See :

The following is borrowed from my assessment of the Bibles that I have.

4) Holy Bible - New Revised Standard Version - Apocrypha  Published By Oxford

As the title suggests a re-revised standard version. No cross referencing, same sparse but clear footnotes. Unattractive dimensional proportions. This Bible has a complete set of the recognized apocrypha. This includes a book that appears in the Slavonic Bible titled : 3 Esdras; and in the Vulgate Appendix titled : 4 Esdras. The Oxford N.R.S.V. has titled this same book : 2 Esdras; but it is not, I repeat, NOT to be confused with the 2 Esdras which appears in the Douai Bible; which is a completely different book. I explain all this because the book is omitted from all my other Bibles, yet it is an important book of prophecy pertinent to current events.

The following are extracts from 2 Esdras re hidden parts of the Bible.

See 2 Esdras 14 : 1 - 7 Re Secret Books of Moses
2 Esdras 14 : 1 - 7 (NRSV) : On the third day, while I was sitting under an Oak, suddenly a voice came out of a bush opposite me and said, "Ezra, Ezra !" And I answered, "Here I am Lord," and I rose to my feet. Then he said to me, "I revealed myself in a bush and spoke to Moses when my people were in bondage in Egypt; and I sent him and led my people out of Egypt; and I led him up on Mount Sinai, where I kept him with me many days. I told him many wondrous things, and showed him the secrets of the times and declared to him the end of times. Then I commanded him saying, 'These words you shall publish openly, and these you shall keep secret.'

See 2 Esdras 14 : 19 - 26 & 37 - 48 Re Secret Books Of Esdras.
2 Esdras 14 : 19 - 26 (NRSV) : Then I answered and said, "Let me speak in your presence Lord., For I will go, as you have commanded me, and I will reprove the people who are now living; but who will warn those who are born hereafter ? For the world lies in darkness, and its inhabitants are without light. For your law has been burned, and no one knows the things which have been done or will be done by you. If then I have found favour with you, send the Holy Spirit into me, and I will write everything which has happened in the world from the beginning, the things that were written in your law, so that people may be able to find the path, and that those who want to live in the last days may do so." He answered me and said "Go and gather the people, and tell them not to seek you for forty days. But prepare for yourself many writing tablets, and take with you Sarea, Dabria, Selemia, Ethanus, and Asiel ---- these five, who are trained to write rapidly; and you shall come here, and I will light in your heart the lamp of understanding, which shall not be put out until what you are about to write is finished. And when you have finished, some things you shall make public, and some you shall deliver in secret to the wise; tomorrow at this hour you shall begin to write."

2 Esdras 14 : 37 - 48 (NRSV) : So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we proceeded to the field, and remained there. And on the next day a voice called me saying, "Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink." So I opened my mouth, and a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire. I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, for my spirit retained its memory, and my mouth was opened and no longer closed. Moreover, the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, using characters that they did not know. They sat forty days; they wrote during the daytime, and ate their bread at night. But as for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night. So during the forty days, ninety-four books were written. And when the forty days had ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, "Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge." And I did so.


I can only conclude that the coded messages I have found are part of what remained hidden.

See Mark 4 : 21 - 25 (Revised Standard Version)
Mark 4 : 21 - 25 (RSV) : And he said to them, "Is a lamp brought in to be put under a bushel, or under a bed, and not on a stand ? For there is nothing hid except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret, except to come to light. If any man has ears to hear, let him hear." And he said to them, "Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given to you. For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

NOTE : "Nothing is hid except to be made manifest" and "Nor is anything secret, except to come to light" means there are secret things within the Bible, but those secrets will be revealed. Problem being many people don't believe there are secret things within the Bible, and consequently when those secrets are revealed, they don't believe any of it. But that is their problem I guess; and as regards "To him who has will more be given", I suppose I should thank Zeke13 for the tip he posted that there IS a hidden message in the Bible concerning Lilith.

I will highlight the MEANINGS of each of the different words for owl, in Isaiah 34

1323
 bath
bath
 from 'banah' (1129) (as feminine of 'ben' (1121)); a daughter (used in the same wide sense as other terms of relationship, literally and figuratively):--apple (of the eye), branch, company, daughter, X first, X old, + owl, town, village.



More to follow.

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #98 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 16:35:55 »
2 Esdras is NOT part of the Bible.  Not even the Roman Catholic Church recognizes it as such.

You cannot talk about hidden messages in the Bible and then use extra-biblical sources.

BTW, still no scriptural evidence that Adam had two wives or raciall mixed children.

next... ?


Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #99 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 17:50:04 »
Re "Proof" about "Lilith", See :



Some people just "Read" the Bible, others research things whose meanings are disputed. With regard to the story of "Lilith", the REAL ISSUE is what do the words associated with her REALLY MEAN ? And what is the MEANING of the words that these words are DERIVED FROM ? The one good thing about the "King James Version" is "Strong's"; which is in all probability the BEST concordance available. So what does "Strong's" have to say about it all ?



NOTE that Strong's has given the "King James Translators" word "Screech" to look up to find "Liyliyth", and assigned it the alphabetical sequence number 3917 to look up the word in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary. NOTE Strong's has also given the "King James Translators" word "Owls" to look up what the Hebrew word they translated as "Owls" really means; and assigned it the alphabetical sequence numbers 1323 & 3284 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary. See :



So what we find by researching the MEANING of those words, and the MEANING OF THE WORDS THEY ARE DERIVED FROM is :

Liyliyth - Lee-leeth - (Feminine) Night Spectre - Night Adversity - A Daughter - Apple Of The Eye - (of Adam) - Company - First Daughter - Old (Branch - Company)

Pay Attention, Heed,  -- Purpose - The Reason - Or Cause - Because - Why - To Build - To Begin - To Obtain Children - A Son - One Born - (as opposed to being created from the dust of the earth) - Child - Of First Daughter - Firstborn - Very Fruitful - Mighty Man - Rebel - Tumultous One

CAIN PERHAPS ?

This I will tell you : If You think that "SCREECH OWL" is a more likely translation than "LILITH", of a word derived from words MEANING THAT, then you must be a :"Blind Bat" - who would at least find a "Screech Owl" to be "Night Adversity" .

More to follow.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 20:26:48 by JHM »

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #100 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 18:11:59 »
Re Adam's sons being racially mixed :







NOTE : The Chapter and Verse numbering schemes differ between the Archbishop Laurence translation of Enoch and the translations of Canon R. H. Charles and G. H. Schodde. Chapter 84 in the former is rendered as chapter 85 in the latter two.

Link for 2 Different translations of Enoch 85 (R. H. Charles) & (G. H. Schodde) & also Enoch 84 (R. Laurence)

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC_Parallel.html#85

And I can't help it if you don't believe Enoch is scriptural.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 18:57:19 by JHM »

k-pappy

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #101 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 22:49:13 »
WOW.

Just wow.

You post links to everything but scritpure, but  can't help it if I do not find them scriptural?

I thought maybe you had some scripture to back up what you said, but I was wrong.

There is no scripture to back up your theories, and that is unfortunate.  You've got nothing but myths and legends.  I really am done wasting my time on this thread.

Bond

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #102 on: Sat Jul 24, 2010 - 23:58:41 »
So you say. But you still have not posted the link you claimed to have saying that "Liyliyth" means "Night Demon" or "Night Bird" according to Strong's, as opposed to "Night Spectre" or "Screech Owl" as I said, and posted links to Strong's proving it.

Offline GabrieltheAngel

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #103 on: Sun Jul 25, 2010 - 04:55:19 »
**THIS IS A SERIOUS POST; SERIOUS REPLIES ONLY!!!**
**THIS IS A THEORY; NOT GOSPEL TRUTH**

Is there anyone whom think there exists a smelly, disgusting presence in this world?
Has there ever been a person(s) you've met that will NOT agree with you on anything?
And they even agressively argue that the sky is not blue?!!!!!
Are they truly PSYCHOPATHIC to the core? Satanic? "FALLEN"?

You might want to read, further:

What if the Aliens are already here? And look just like us (Human). I believe -in fact (I KNOW!)- Time Travel is already here. Just research the Masons (Freemasons). We see their Lodges; Do we ever see anyone go in them?

I suggest the masons -not all, of course- Travel Time and are soley here to control who (which DNA types) breed and which ones are to suffer the loss of permenant death. They (the fallen angels) do this through stealth. In many ways: obvious and/or in secret.

They are here to KILL THE CONSCIENCE of those whom have one. In order to create
HELL ON EARTH, before killing humanity -altogether.


Please, discuss






What medication are you on???  Let's talk my friend, wow all I can say, share the meds if you can with those that are feeling pain, otherwise, share for those of us in need of some humor in our lives.. lol

Offline patrickrussell

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #104 on: Tue Dec 14, 2010 - 21:27:21 »
Where did every one go ? since Mar 25/1 to  July 24
I just found this posting.
And what happened to Ralph Malph the topic starter. I didnt see his replys.
Great topic.  Softens the rigid politically correct theological mind.

Great interaction on a winter eve.

Great work JHM

As for Time travel- Please forget it if possible.
As for demons-  most 90% came the flood, 10% after flood. Disembodied souls of cross breed angels.
As for Liylith-  She is in my Jerusalem bible and others. Many history references also. End of that arg.
As for the Cain family surviving thru Noahs flood , his Sons wife. Why can we not except the idea that Fallen angels fell again after the flood just as the first time. ?
Just like Vikings appeared in full color suddenly in the north on an island. NO?
Even the naked eye can see the undeniable evidence of Vikings unique size , hair , skin color etc.

OK, In regard to Noah(secrets of Enoch) He had bright white hair, I see the possibility there. An off spring people group that clanned after Babylon and remained pure, Possible. !!!  But I doubt.
Id rather think from all the reports these people were mixed angels like these of Davids day.  Bet !
PS: The idea that DNA has proven that all man kind came from a black woman in Africa(scientific fact) does not exclude the fact that Noah was born white and his parents were black(red, brown, what ever)had the white genes in them, And that God purposed devinely for this by selecting the genes and matched them. (They will cease from there labor)
PSS: In regard to -Alien and space craft, ships, saucers, what ever you wish,
Elija flew up into heaven in a craft of sorts. Call it what you wish.
We all have our own lingo. Let us reason together.
If we can touch one Alien Abductee person with some some hope of understanding then we can win them over to Christ. Amen !
Thanks Patrick (not a theologian)Mpls mn
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 16, 2010 - 21:10:59 by patrickrussell »