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Author Topic: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)  (Read 25368 times)

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Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2010, 06:28:27 PM »
I do not consider Enoch scripture

Lilith is NOT mentioned in the Bible

it is a bad fable...an addition to belittle God's works

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2010, 06:28:27 PM »

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2010, 11:16:30 PM »
You don't know what you are talking about. Try Isaiah 34 : 14. It is not my fault that your error riddled King James has translated her name as "Screech Owl" and the Revised Standard calls her "Night Hag" and the New American Standard has translated her name as "Night Monster" while the NIV calls her "Night Creatures"; BUT the Jerusalem Bible, The Darby Bible and the New Revised Standard have it right and call her "Lilith:". Look up "screech owl" in Strong's" and find out what the original word that they translated to be "Screech Owl" was, why don't you huh ?

Strong's  "Screech" :  Isa 34 : 14 the s' owl also shall rest there, *3917

Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary 3917 : liyliyth. lee-leeth ; from 3915; a  night spectre : - screech owl.

She and Adam fought over who got to be "On Top" - "Night Monster, Night Hag, Night Spectre, Screech Owl" -- GET IT ?

While you are at it read Leviticus 16, then look up "scapegoat" in Strong's
See Leviticus 16 : 7 - 10 (King James Version)
Leviticus 16 : 7 - 10 :   And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
              
   See Strong’s Main Concordance : “Scapegoat
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 04:37:53 PM by JHM »

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2010, 11:16:30 PM »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2010, 02:24:27 AM »
I will highlight the MEANINGS of each of the different words for owl, in Isaiah 34
2 are all plainly speaking of animals ie. unclean birds...not a woman named lilyth
one is speaking of a positive coveted relationship,
and one is speaking of a condition of re-coiling or springing forward

none speak of this so called individual woman named lilyth
and the chapter certainly does not convey the thought of her at all...

someone has lied to you

3244
yanshuwph
yan-shoof'
 or yanshowph {yan-shofe'}; apparently from 'nashaph' (5398); an unclean (acquatic) bird; probably the heron (perhaps from its blowing cry, or because the night-heron is meant (compare 'nesheph' (5399)))):--(great) owl.s

 

that's the owl from verse 11...clearly not a woman



1323
 bath
bath
 from 'banah' (1129) (as feminine of 'ben' (1121)); a daughter (used in the same wide sense as other terms of relationship, literally and figuratively):--apple (of the eye), branch, company, daughter, X first, X old, + owl, town, village.


that's owl from the 13th verse, and it is not speaking of lilyth here either


here is the one you think means lilyth, a woman's proper name from Isaiah34:14

3917
 liyliyth
lee-leeth'
 from 'layil' (3915); a night spectre:--screech owl.


this owl, finds  place of rest, in this symbolic look at the Lord's Day
it is not a proper name lilyth....

now, the name lilyth does mean owl/bird/night spectre...

but the owl in this case is just a bird, not lilyth

there is nothing in the actual text to suggest that this means lilyth as you think.
this is clearly an end time scripture.....meant to be understood that way...
there is no teaching of Adam and Lilyth here....

and just so you know, the word "screech" is an addition, and is not in the manuscripts




all 3 uses of owl so far in Isaiah 34 mean unclean bird....none mean lilyth,

even if one of the words seems similar to the proper name lilyth,
it still means what it means, which is a night spectre, according to Strong's
not a proper name of a fictional character


we have another word translated as owl as well in Isaiah verse15

7091
 qippowz
kip-poze'
 from an unused root meaning to contract, i.e. spring forward; an arrow-snake (as darting on its prey):--great owl.


it seems that 4 times the word owl is used in this chapter, and all 4 times the word is a different word...
and none of them MEANS lilyth

simply read the scripture....

where would you suggest in Isaiah 34,
that there would be a teaching that would convince me
that owl meant the proper name of a fictional bible character?
 

 

Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2010, 03:25:05 AM »
Interesting : "A daughter"; "Feminine"; "Company" - for Adam; "First". If you don't get it by now you never will.

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (Jerusalem Bible)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : Wild cats will meet hyenas there, the satyrs will call to each other, there too will Lilith take cover seeking rest.

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (Darby Translation)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : And there shall the beasts of the desert meet with jackals, and the wild goat shall cry to his fellow; the lilith g also shall settle there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Note g : Or "night spectre"

See Isaiah 34 : 14 (New Revised Standard Version)
Isaiah 34 : 14 : Wildcats shall meet with hyenas, goat-demons shall call to each other; there too Lilith shall repose, and find a place to rest.

See also the "Forward" to the Revised Standard Version

"The King James Version of the New Testament was based on a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Besa, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based on a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly recieved text.; Besa had access to two manuscripts of great value dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus."

Regretably it doesn't say what the King James Version of the Old Testament was based on, though I doubt it was any better. The King James has a habit of "Translating" words that are NOT meant to be translated. e.g. "Giants" for "Nephilim" in Genesis 6 : 4 ; "Scapegoat" for "Azazel" in Leviticus 16 : 8, 10, & 26 ; "Screech Owl" for "Lilith" in Isaiah 34 : 14
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 09:12:05 AM by JHM »

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2010, 03:25:05 AM »

Offline zeke13

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2010, 11:49:44 AM »
ok, it seems that you are not understanding something rather important...

context of the passage...

is there a teaching in there that has anything to do with Adam or any individual person? answer is no

Isaiah 34 just does not actually teach anything about lilyth

you assume because the greek word for night spectre is used, (lilyth) that it is the supposed woman lilyth...
when the context shows that is just not the case at all.
nothing in the chapter leads one to that conclusion...
and God would not just randomly mention or insert a persons name, without a reason
especially a person that has never been mentioned before in the bible


there is NO reason for any named individual to be in Isaiah34...
the word does not mean her...it means night spectre

and that fits the context perfectly, where as lilyth meaning a proper name, just does not

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2010, 11:49:44 AM »



Offline BondServant

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2010, 12:12:23 PM »
Umm, Lilith is a myth...she is a Babylonian myth that the Hebrews adopted during their captivity...and no, she is not mentioned in the Bible...not unless you purposely mistranslate one small verse (Is 34:!4)...the hebrew word for "night bird" is the same as "night demon" the Hebrew word is "Liyliyth" which is sometimes transliterated rather than translated at "Lilith."

Lilith was a Babylonian demon, not Adam's first wife.

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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2010, 12:37:02 PM »
I could insert the article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but what is the point ? Those who are willfully blind shall remain so. And you still have not explained how Adam, (Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary entries 119, 120, 121, & 122) which means amoung other things "Ruddy", "Rosy Red", "To flush or turn rosy", wound up with one white son, Seth; one red son, Abel; and one black son, Cain: if he only ever had one wife. Note too that Cain was older than Abel, (Lilith was Adam's FIRST wife, remember ?).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 01:58:38 PM by JHM »

Offline BondServant

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2010, 04:01:53 PM »
I could insert the article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but what is the point ? Those who are willfully blind shall remain so.


Well, you sure got that right!  here is the article:

Quote
female demon of Jewish folklore; her name and personality are derived from the class of Mesopotamian demons called lilû (feminine: lilītu). In rabbinic literature Lilith is variously depicted as the mother of Adam’s demonic offspring following his separation from Eve or as his first wife, who left him because of their incompatibility. Three angels tried in vain to force her return; the evil she threatened, especially against children, was said to be counteracted by the wearing of an amulet bearing the names of the angels. A cult associated with Lilith survived among some Jews.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/341009/Lilith

bond
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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2010, 04:23:06 PM »
I got my article from Britannica some years ago; and it is somewhat more detailed. Also found a very detailed article to day; but like your Britannica it has a number of different versions, one of which supports what I am saying. I also checked with one of the "Experts" at the "Bible Scholars Forum", here is what he said :

as to your question about Isaiah 34:14 --
 
the Hebrew literally reads LEELEETH, which doesn't translate out to be "screech owl."  that is merely an applied definition - maybe right, but not definitely.  literally what it translates out to mean is rather strange.  it literally means "feminine night", or perhaps a more dynamic route, "female of the night", as the term is simply the Hebrew for "Night," but with a feminine ending attached.  in this sense, it does seem to support the idea for a demonic entity, but in the end, the literal meaning doesn't actually translate as anything necessarily demonic.  that comes from much later Rabbinic application, so is rather tautological in meaning.  the Peshitta AN"K chose merely to transliterate the term in to Aramaic, yielding Leeleetha, which doesn't help in figuring out the meaning at all.
 
Interestingly, however, the term preceding it, usually translated as "satyr" or "shaggy goat," is also understood to be demonic goat entity in Hebrew, so perhaps there is some manner of validity in looking at the entire verse as referencing demonic creatures.  i honestly don't know, so i personally wouldn't teach it as such, but rather i would throw the possibility out there in light of the language allowances, and let the individual make up their minds for themselves.
 
as for the other two terms, which come first in the verse, which are TZEE'YEEM and EE'YEEM, they refer to some unknown type of creatures, but the meanings of those specific terms are "dry ones," and "howlers," respectively.

Offline BondServant

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2010, 05:46:34 PM »
JHM, not sure where you are getting your info from (you did not cite it), but I already posted what came from Strong's Concordance and the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Bottom line, your fancy fonts do not make you right.  

According to Strong's Concordance (a much better source than your "scholars") the hebrew word liyliyth literally means "night bird" or "night demon" thus, contrary to a few blog posts, the KJV, while not the best rendering in today's english is still valid.  Frankly, if you study the enlish languange from the 16th and 17th century, you will see it was an accurate rendering in the venacular.

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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2010, 06:16:01 PM »
You seem to be a nice guy. Shame you are blind on this one. Still evading the question : How did Adam wind up with the racially mixed sons that he did too.

Offline BondServant

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2010, 06:33:57 PM »
You seem to be a nice guy. Shame you are blind on this one. Still evading the question : How did Adam wind up with the racially mixed sons that he did too.

Thank you, I am also a little confused.  I used God's Word, Strong's Concordance and the Encylopedia Brittanica.  Please explain how I am blind?

Also, I did not evade anything, I merely chose not to address it as it is not found in Scripture.  If you provide me with a scritpure that shows Adam's kids were racially mixed, I will address the issue.

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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2010, 07:41:20 PM »
It is in the Book of Enoch. Re not quoting sources, I seem to recall I quoted the New Revised Standard Version The Jerusalem, and the Darby Translation; all of which say "Lilith" and the Darby says lilith HERSELF. But some people seem to think the King Jimmie is the be all and end all. Me, I give it this : It is the most linguistically beautiful English translation extant. But it is also chock full of errors. The Jerusalem on the other hand, I have found to be overall, the best, (most accurate), of the 7 different translations I have, with the New Revised Sandard running second, and the Darby third. And it isn't just this stuff I am speaking about.

I first read the Revised Standard cover to cover and became convinced it is all real because someone very long ago knew far more about the future than any human being had any business knowing. I then read the Jerusalem cover to cover taking notes; the Bible is a very scattered book, and you will find references to the same, or related subjects here there and everywhere. I took notes using topic headings. i.e. God in Man, Urim & Thummin, Babylon, earthquakes, darkness, status of nations, Joseph in Egypt, booths, giants, God rides through heaven, Fate of non Jews, election of Israel, Further description of GOD, Liquid Core of the earth, wisdom and understanding, righteousness, Nuclear winter, Nazism Forewarned ?, Israel Highest mountain, Fate of the Devil and his children, No dawn for them, end of extortion, Hail, Distribution of message, Language of leaning - No longer spoken, arm of the Lord , etc. etc. Listing every reference that I found to each subject I used as a heading.

Having done that I then began reading it cover to cover again, this time comparing 7 different versions on a verse by verse basis. As already stated, I found the Jerusalem to be overall the most accurate, the NEW Revised Standard second best, and the Darby third best.

As for fancy fonts, I make it a point to put my words and GOD'S words in different fonts, so there will be no confusion between the two.

Offline BondServant

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2010, 07:47:46 PM »
I am passed the subject of lilith.  I already told you that some have transliterated the Hebrew word instead translating it.  Nice try at evasion though.

I want you to quote the scriptures that show Adam had racially mixed children.

I will bow out of the thread until you do.  Have a great night!

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Offline JHM

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Re: Fallen Angels (Look Just Like Humans)
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2010, 10:16:15 PM »
Umm, Lilith is a myth...she is a Babylonian myth that the Hebrews adopted during their captivity...and no, she is not mentioned in the Bible...not unless you purposely mistranslate one small verse (Is 34:!4)...the hebrew word for "night bird" is the same as "night demon" the Hebrew word is "Liyliyth" which is sometimes transliterated rather than translated at "Lilith."

Lilith was a Babylonian demon, not Adam's first wife.

Bond

According to Strong's Concordance (a much better source than your "scholars") the hebrew word liyliyth literally means "night bird" or "night demon"

Strong's  "Screech" :  Isa 34 : 14 the s' owl also shall rest there, *3917

Strong's Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary 3917 : liyliyth. lee-leeth ; from 3915; a  night spectre : - screech owl.

NOTE : Strong's does not say anything about either "Night Bird" or "Night Demon"; though it does give a root trace to 3915.
See Strong's 3915 : layil, or Isa 21 : 11 leyl, also laylah : from the same as 3883; prop. a twist (away of the light), i.e. night; fig. adversity: --([mid-]) night (season).

She and Adam fought over who got to be "On Top" - "Night Monster, Night Hag, Night Spectre, Screech Owl" -- GET IT ?

NOTE ALSO : Of the seven different translations I have, only the "King Jimmie" refers to "Lee-Leeth" as a bird. Of the others, three flat out say "Lilith"; and one of them adds "Night Spectre" as in some sort of demon. Of the remainder, one says "Night Hag" which would indicate some sort of unpleasant female; and another says "Night Monster". Only the NIV sits uncommitted with it's "Night Creatures".

NOTE FURTHER : If "Qayin" can be translated as "Cain" without "Transliterating" the word, then why can "Lee-Leeth" not be said to be the original spelling of "Lilith" without "Transliteration" ? (other examples too numerous to mention also available).

female demon of Jewish folklore; .... In rabbinic literature Lilith is variously depicted as the mother of Adam’s demonic offspring following his separation from Eve or as his first wife, who left him because of their incompatibility. Three angels tried in vain to force her return;

NOTE : Since the Bible says nothing about Adam and Eve ever separating, I take that part to be erronius. Re the "Fighting" over who got to be "On Top" during sex, See : The Encyclopedia Judaica, or older versions of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Encyclopedia Judaica :

LILITH, a female demon assigned a central position in Jewish demonology. She appears briefly in the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic ...

A transmuted version of this legend appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a Midrash of the geonic period, which sets out to explain the already widespread custom of writing amulets against Lilith. Here she is identified with the "first Eve," who was created from the earth at the same time as Adam, and who, unwilling to forgo her equality, disputed with him the manner of their intercourse. Pronouncing the Ineffable Name, she flew off into the air. On Adam's request, the Almighty sent after her the three angels Snwy, Snsnwy, and Smnglf; finding her in the Red Sea, the angels threatened that if she did not return, 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused, claiming that she was expressly created to harm newborn infants. However, she had to swear that whenever she saw the image of those angels in an amulet, she would lose her power over the infant. Here the legend concerning the wife of Adam who preceded the creation of Eve (Gen. 2) merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in childbirth.

Lilith is identified as a demon in the Dead Sea Scrolls (11QpsAp). The name Lilith was also inscribed on incantation bowls of Sassanian Babylonia. Although such bowls were not an exclusively Jewish phenomenon, some invoke rabbinic divorce formulas to exorcise demons. Belief in her erotic powers led some Jewish communities to adopt the custom of sons not accompanying their dead father's body to the cemetery because they would be shamed by the hovering presence of their demon step-siblings, born of their father's seduction by Lilith.

NOTE : The second of the two foregoing quotations is but one of MANY different explanations of "Lilith" presented in the Encyclopedia Judaica; but it is the one I believe to be correct. I also have the older version of the Encyclopedia Britannica floating around somewhere. NOTE ALSO : It is very easy to make misstatements, and very difficult to refute them. If you weren't what I regard to be a nice guy, I would not bother. NOTE FURTHER : Jeremy C. Springfield, (My "Expert"), is quite familiar with ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and is currantly engaged in doing a "Literal English Translation" of the "Peshitta" wherein he compares it verse by verse to the various Greek versions extant. He is probably as knowledgeable as was James H. Strong; but has the advantage of access to many more recently found ancient documents.

Finally, with repect to the racial characteristics of the sons of Adam, See :

See Book of Enoch 84 (Archbishop Laurence )
NOTE : The Book Says : A Reprint From An Edition Edited, With Variations, And Published By John Thompson, Glasgow 1882  - Published By Artisan Sales - Copyright 1980 - Library Of Congress Catalogue Card Number 80-86736) Having checked online versions of the Laurence Enoch, I conclude that the parts in brackets are additions by the publisher; though I regard them as being accurate explanatory notes.

Enoch 84 : After this I saw another dream. And explained it all to thee, my son. Enoch arose and said to his son Mathusalah: To thee, my son will I speak.;  Hear my word and incline thine ear to the visionary dream of thy father. Before I married thy mother Edna, I saw a vision on my bed; and beheld a cow sprung forth from the earth (cattle a symbol of mankind – Ezek 34 22); And this cow was white. Afterwards a female heifer sprung forth; and with it another heifer; one of them was black and one was red. The black heifer then struck the red one, and pursued it over the earth. (Cain killed Able) From that period on I could see nothing more of the red heifer; but the black one increased in bulk, and a female heifer came with him. (Cain married Sister Awan) After this I saw that many cows proceeded forth, resembling him, and following after him. The first female young one also went out in the presence of the first cow; and sought the red heifer; but found him not. And she lamented with a great lamentation, while she was seeking him. Then I looked until that first cow came to her, from which time she became silent, and ceased to lament. Afterwards she calved another white cow. (Seth) And again calved many cows and black heifers. In my sleep also I perceived a white bull, which in like manner grew, and became a large white bull. After him many white cows came forth, resembling him. And they began to calve many other white cows, which resembled them and followed each other. (Noah’s family)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 10:20:17 AM by JHM »