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Author Topic: First fruits to God and the Lamb  (Read 1507 times)

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inthenow

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First fruits to God and the Lamb
« on: November 28, 2011, 05:24:17 PM »
If the caught up 144000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb (rev 14) then how is there a earlier rapture?

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First fruits to God and the Lamb
« on: November 28, 2011, 05:24:17 PM »

Offline Linker

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 05:34:30 PM »
The 144,000 are not "caught up" to God

These will all be mortals of the children of Israel and the first saved [redeemed] believers of the coming tribulation period

Their mission will be to preach the gospel of the Lord's soon coming millennial kingdom which will be established on the earth just after those days of tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31]

And the Lord will lead them [the world at the time will not see Him doing this]

And they will have to be sealed for their supernatural protection from the wiles of the tribulation

The Lord's judgment will not begin until these are sealed for protection

Read the following verses of scripture very carefully:

Revelation
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand [on the earth], which were redeemed [saved] from the earth.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women [their ancestors like Solomon were led into idolatry by foreign women]; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits [the first to be saved in the tribulation period] unto God and to the Lamb.

14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [Matthew 24:14]

14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 05:49:05 PM by Linker »

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 05:34:30 PM »

larry2

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 06:27:46 PM »

If the caught up 144000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb (rev 14) then how is there a earlier rapture?


Describing Israel when they are seen by John in heaven in Revelation 14:3?  "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." Be it known that these 144,000 were not the first into heaven seeing that the elders and the four beasts were already there before them.
 

inthenow

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 09:21:17 PM »

If the caught up 144000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb (rev 14) then how is there a earlier rapture?


Describing Israel when they are seen by John in heaven in Revelation 14:3?  "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." Be it known that these 144,000 were not the first into heaven seeing that the elders and the four beasts were already there before them.
 

Yes, true, they are the first fruits of Israel.  Duh  ::smile::

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 09:21:17 PM »
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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »
The 144,000 are not resurrected beings [they are mortals], but they are viewed by those of the pre-tribulation church and angelic beings in heaven as they are sealed, and as they set out to preach the gospel of the kingdom during the tribulation period on the earth

The Lord will lead them, but He will not be seen by earth dwellers, but only by those that He chooses to appear to .... the 144,000

He will not be seen by earth dwellers until the end of the tribulation of those days and then all will see Him

..... and the Lord is obviously in the heavenly state and opens the seals of the scroll containing the tribulation judgments

How is this possible? How can He be both in heaven and on the earth during the tribulation period .... not a problem for the Lord at all

He can move from the heavenly dimension to the material world on the earth at will
and back .... because He can be everywhere all of the time .... He is the omni-present God

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »



inthenow

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 05:25:51 PM »
In revelation 7 the hundred and forty and four thousand are sealed and protected from tribulation.
But then in chapter 14 they are in Heaven singing before the throne of God, before the elders and the four beasts.
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 05:40:54 PM »
The 144,000 will actually be on the earth during the tribulation

There would be no need to hold back the judgments until they have been sealed if they were immortals [Revelation 7:1-3]

And they would not be able to preach the gospel of the kingdom to earth dwellers if they were not on the earth .... they will do this [Revelation 14:1-7]

These will be the first mortals to believe and to be saved on the earth just after the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize His church of today of both the dead in Christ and the living at the time

The 24 elders and the great multitude are in heaven and the shared "song" is one of a common salvation .... the link between the immortal church in heaven and the 144,000 on the earth .... both know and believe the truth about the Lord [5:9] [believers in heaven]; 14:3] [the 144,000 on the earth]

Revelation 12:10-12 contrasts believers already in heaven [those that dwell in heaven] with their brethren in Christ on the earth who will face the tribulation period [Revelation 14:13]

And the 144,000 on the earth will be "before the throne" [but on the earth .... in the Lord's providence], representing the Lord on the earth and preaching of His coming kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:14], and observed by their brothers in Christ in heaven who will already have been resurrected
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:58:53 PM by Linker »

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 06:03:11 PM »
The 144,000 are men on earth during the tribulation.  So linker is right about this part.

They are sealed against God's wrath while preaching the gospel to those Jews who are told to flee to the wilderness as Ammon and edom will be protected in the last days. I say the 144,000 are sealed and then the rapture happens at that time. And you have to remember that a good deal of the elect (all believers) are overcome by this point and most people have taken the mark before the 144,000 are sealed and rapture.... The 144,000 many will preach to those who flee jerusalem and Israel when the Antichrist armies attack to take the temple.    Petra is in the area God will protect and those who like lot are told to flee, those who don't will be in the same fate as lots wife, that's destruction at hands of Antichrist.....  Also most people who believe in the pre trib rapture have no idea where that teaching came from..... As some do
 

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 06:57:07 PM »
KB has this one right except for the timing of the Lord's "harpazo" for His church of today and the sealing of the 144,000

.... both of these events will be close to one another, but just before the beginning of the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days

It is possible that the sealing of the 144,000 will occur on the same day as the Lord's 'harpazo" action, and sealing of the 144,000 will have to take place before the tribulation begins according to the scripture

Here is the beginning of the tribulation period [Revelation 6:12-17]

.... today's church will be taken "up" just before, but it is possible that the 144,000 will be mustered and sealed quickly just shortly after the beginning .... I think this will be the case


inthenow

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 09:21:04 PM »
Quote
And they would not be able to preach the gospel of the kingdom to earth dwellers if they were not on the earth .... they will do this [Revelation 14:1-7]

Revelation 14:1-7 dosn't talk about the 144000 preaching the gospel.


Quote
The 24 elders and the great multitude are in heaven and the shared "song" is one of a common salvation

Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Quote
The 144,000 are men on earth during the tribulation.  So linker is right about this part.

Has that been said otherwise?
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Quote
Petra is in the area God will protect and those who like lot are told to flee, those who don't will be in the same fate as lots wife, that's destruction at hands of Antichrist.....

not the antichrist, Lot's wife's destruction came from God.

Quote
Also most people who believe in the pre trib rapture have no idea where that teaching came from.....

Who don't  ::smile::

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 10:25:12 PM »
"Revelation 14:1-7 dosn't talk about the 144000 preaching the gospe"

Oh yes it does .... this will be their mission

Why do you think that the angel goes out before them? .... do you think an angel is going to do the preaching?

 

inthenow

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 11:43:45 PM »
"Revelation 14:1-7 dosn't talk about the 144000 preaching the gospe"

Oh yes it does .... this will be their mission

Why do you think that the angel goes out before them? .... do you think an angel is going to do the preaching?

 
Where is it said that the 144000 have a mission to preach the gospel. Not dispelling it, just don't remember having seen it.

It is not said the angel goes out before them, it is said the angel preaches the gospel, yes I believe it, it will be a miraculous event, how could 144000 men preach the gospel to all that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 07:56:45 AM »
Notice and ponder these things:

The relationship between the verses about the 144,000 and the action of the vangard
 angel

The Lord's statement in Matthew 24:14 when He was asked about the time of the end which is still pending

His intent to continue His offer of salvation to an unbelieving world [Revelation 6:2]

There will be no believes on the earth at the beginning of the tribulation period .... the 144,000 will be he first .... and the there will be others [Revelation 14:13]

There must be a way for the gospel to be preached first to Israel and then to the nations

The 144,000 will do it just like the first 12 in the first century and even this small band's efforts were far reaching

The 144,000 are sealed for their mision and will have 2550 days to preach [the time lapse of the tribulation period

First to Israel .... notice where they begin their and who will lead them [Revelation 14]

The purpose for the 144,000 will be to tell the earth dwellers what is going on [to make sense about the the Lord's time of trial and judgment upon the earth] and  that repentance will be necessary for them in order to be save just as it is today

EdwardGoodie

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 10:37:04 AM »
If the caught up 144000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb (rev 14) then how is there a earlier rapture?

Where does the Bible say that these 144,000 were "CAUGHT UP"?

And if these truly are part of the first fruits harvest, how can anyone believe that this event is still in the future?  Millions upon millions have been saved...

Besides, the 144,000 is not an exact literal number anyway.  It deals with the number 1,000 which indicates fullness or completeness.  The 144 is representative of the 12 tribes of Israel.

12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000

inthenow

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Re: First fruits to God and the Lamb
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 04:27:42 PM »
Notice and ponder these things:

The relationship between the verses about the 144,000 and the action of the vangard
 angel

The Lord's statement in Matthew 24:14 when He was asked about the time of the end which is still pending

His intent to continue His offer of salvation to an unbelieving world [Revelation 6:2]

There will be no believes on the earth at the beginning of the tribulation period .... the 144,000 will be he first .... and the there will be others [Revelation 14:13]

There must be a way for the gospel to be preached first to Israel and then to the nations

The 144,000 will do it just like the first 12 in the first century and even this small band's efforts were far reaching

The 144,000 are sealed for their mision and will have 2550 days to preach [the time lapse of the tribulation period

First to Israel .... notice where they begin their and who will lead them [Revelation 14]

The purpose for the 144,000 will be to tell the earth dwellers what is going on [to make sense about the the Lord's time of trial and judgment upon the earth] and  that repentance will be necessary for them in order to be save just as it is today
You are not using scripture, just your own words.
Again, where is it said the 144000 will preach the gospel.
Again I'm not dispelling it, but I havn't seen it.