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Author Topic: First Rapture is According to Readiness  (Read 3543 times)

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Parture

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First Rapture is According to Readiness
« on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:08:49 »
How do I know the first rapture is according for readiness and not the whole church is raptured at the that time before the Tribulation starts?

The key verses for first rapture ar Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 before the trumpets of the Tribulation are blown (8.7ff). Be clear on this: notice in all cases a CONDITION is given. It amounts to an IF THEN statement.

Left Behind Series says everyone who is saved is raptured before the Tribulation. Think what will happen. When several million are taken up to "before the throne" (7.9), pretribber onlyists and posttribber onlyists will accuse the brethren day and night (12.10) for they assume if it was the Tribulation they would have been raptured already, or in the case of posttribbers that since there is no first rapture at all they assume, those taken must be the unsaved.

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First Rapture is According to Readiness
« on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:08:49 »

Amo

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #1 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:13:23 »
That last part concerning post tribbers, doesn't make any sense.  Please expound.

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #1 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:13:23 »

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #2 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:15:08 »
There is only one rapture.  Please read Matt 25...whoever is not ready when Jesus comes will be left out in the cold...permanently.

In Christ,
KP

Parture

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:31:00 »
That last part concerning post tribbers, doesn't make any sense.  Please expound.
To repeat, posttribbers think there is no first rapture, so they will accuse the brethren who are rapture at first rapture.

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:31:00 »

Parture

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:32:25 »
There is only one rapture.  Please read Matt 25...whoever is not ready when Jesus comes will be left out in the cold...permanently.

I have read Matt. 25. In order for you to disprove the proof given for first rapture according to readiness in the opening post, you must be able to tear down each point specifically.

Unless you are able to do that, first rapture is according to readiness.

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:32:25 »



k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #5 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:37:16 »
There is only one rapture.  Please read Matt 25...whoever is not ready when Jesus comes will be left out in the cold...permanently.

I have read Matt. 25. In order for you to disprove the proof given for first rapture according to readiness in the opening post, you must be able to tear down each point specifically.

Unless you are able to do that, first rapture is according to readiness.

You didn't make any points.  You made an assumption...that there are two raptures.  Matt 25 states that whoever is not ready when Jesus comes is not going to be with Him...thus no second rapture.

You say there will be...Jesus says there won't be.  Who am I going to believe?

In Christ,
KP

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #6 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:46:08 »
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
 6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

 7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

 9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

 10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

 11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

 12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


Parture

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #7 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:49:01 »
Matthew 25 The Parable of the Ten Virgins

The parable of the Ten Virgins has nothing to do with rapture, but who gets to reign during the millennial kingdom.

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #8 on: Sun Nov 01, 2009 - 20:59:12 »
Of course you would say that, it flies in the face of your theology...if your theology doesn't make sense...change the meaning of God's Word!

The parable tells us very plainlly that whoever is not ready when Christ comes for the Church, will be left behind.  Period.  You can claim what you want, but Jesus' words are there in black and white (or red and white, depeding on your Bible).

In Christ,
KP

Offline han55

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #9 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 00:41:18 »
yeah   there is no  word (rapture)  on the bible  if there was the word rapture on the bible
then the church would be rapture to meet the lord on the air.

so  you got  2 choices  u   either die for   christ  or  see the coming  of jesus

Offline rezar

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:03:14 »
No literal rapture of the living,  ever.  All flesh dies.

From Ask a Preterist:

 What about the Rapture? Were Christians not to be taken away from Earth before the return of Jesus?

Answer: Not at all. In fact, the word "rapture" does not appear anywhere in the Scripture, nor does the Scripture teach the removal of believers before the return of Christ. The only Bible passage advocating something close to the idea of a "rapture" is 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

    "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

The context of this passage is key to understanding it properly. Here Paul is teaching the Thessalonians regarding believers who have already died, and the order of the Resurrection. It appears that some of the Thessalonians were concerned and worried that those who were physically alive would get to experience the return of Christ before those who were already dead (see verse 15). However Paul is trying to calm their fears and puts forth the order of the events which they (the first century believers) would experience:

   1. God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus (verse 14)
   2. Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep (verse 15)
   3. The Lord will descend (verse 16)
   4. Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with those who are dead (verse 17)

Paul is doing nothing more here than teaching the order of the Resurrection and how events would transpire when Christ would return. All believers (those physically alive, and those physically dead) would together be caught up into Christ's presence and be brought to life through the restoration of God's presence to their lives.

Furthermore, there are clear time statements which place this passage in a first-century context. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 clearly teaches that Paul was expecting the return of Christ to take place within his lifetime or within the lifetime of his audience. The same goes for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where Paul writes "we who are alive and remain," referring to first century believers, not Christians living in the 21st century.

The conclude, the issuse of the Rapture while not complex, can be confusing and difficult to deal with for several reasons:

    * The word "rapture" never appears anywhere in the Bible.
    * The concept of a "rapture" has only been recently (within the last two hundred or so years) created by Dispensational theologians.
    * The idea of a "rapture" implies that believers would be taken away before the Second Coming. This is dirrectly in opposition to Christ comparing his return with "the days of Noah" - see Matthew 24. In the days of Noah, the unrighteous were taken away by the waters of the flood, and the righteous remained and were saved - this is in clear opposition with the teachings of a "rapture."
    * The doctrine of "rapture" is based on a single Bible passage, which is 1 Thess. 4:13-17. This passage does not seem to teach a physical taking away of believers (as in believers' bodies floating up into the skies). Such an even would be unfeasable for several reasons:
          o It would serve no purpose to believers and it would contradict the prayer of Jesus in John 17:15: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."
          o It does not spiritually benefit believers. Salvation is a spiritual matter, in that it does not necessarily involve one's physical delivery from danger, rather it involves a spiritual delivery from destruction into eternal presence of God.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:11:38 »
No literal rapture of the living,  ever.  All flesh dies.

FALSE:  Both Enoch and Elijah were raptured.  They never died.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.

FALSE:  parousia does not mean resurrection it means rapture (transliterated from the latin rapturo which is the latin form of parousia).

Bond

Offline rezar

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:37:23 »
Jesus' Parousia means His "presence" among us & in us.  He brought us close to the Father via physical presence here on earth. We now have a relationship with the Father, through the Spirit of the Lord.

Enoch & Elijah? Another story- but still had to wait to get from "the heavens" to the highest heaven when "Hades" perhaps was destroyed,  bc no one had ever enter heaven except the Son who came from heaven.

2 people out of billions?  I wouldn't count on my odds with that- but good luck anyway!


k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:42:02 »
Jesus' Parousia means His "presence" among us & in us.  He brought us close to the Father via physical presence here on earth. We now have a relationship with the Father, through the Spirit of the Lord.

Enoch & Elijah? Another story- but still had to wait to get from "the heavens" to the highest heaven when "Hades" perhaps was destroyed,  bc no one had ever enter heaven except the Son who came from heaven.

2 people out of billions?  I wouldn't count on my odds with that- but good luck anyway!

Once again, having been proven false, rezar resorts to belittlement.

Castigate people all you want, rezar, the Bible and the facts are still against you.

Bond

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 19:17:02 »
There is only one rapture.  Please read Matt 25...whoever is not ready when Jesus comes will be left out in the cold...permanently.

In Christ,
KP

KP,

Not permanently.  There will be people left behind that come to believe in Jesus during the tribulation.  Or, did I misunderstand you?

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 21:39:15 »
No, you read that right.  After the rapture it is too late.  There is no salvation.  That is why I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus told us when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently.

Bond

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 22:02:18 »
No, you read that right.  After the rapture it is too late.  There is no salvation.  That is why I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus told us when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently.

Bond

Now I understand.  I'd be interested in seeing the Scripture you use to back up your statement  that "when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently."  Just so I can see the context of the Scripture.   ::smile::

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #17 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 22:27:33 »
No, you read that right.  After the rapture it is too late.  There is no salvation.  That is why I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus told us when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently.

Bond

Now I understand.  I'd be interested in seeing the Scripture you use to back up your statement  that "when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently."  Just so I can see the context of the Scripture.   ::smile::

You read my study, right?  That has the context.

In addition, read Matt 25, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2.

Bond

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #18 on: Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 23:37:15 »
No, you read that right.  After the rapture it is too late.  There is no salvation.  That is why I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.  Jesus told us when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently.

Bond

Now I understand.  I'd be interested in seeing the Scripture you use to back up your statement  that "when he comes back for his people, everyone else is left out in the cold...permanently."  Just so I can see the context of the Scripture.   ::smile::

You read my study, right?  That has the context.

In addition, read Matt 25, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2.

Bond

Bond,

I don't know the study you'tr talking about and I reviewed the Scriptures you mentioned and see nothing that I can interpret even close to what you said.  Sorry.

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #19 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 07:56:57 »
Here's the study...you told me you read it.

http://www.uebelecentral.com/rapture.htm

When the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible to get saved.

Bond

larry2

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #20 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 18:26:14 »
Here's the study...you told me you read it.

http://www.uebelecentral.com/rapture.htm

When the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible to get saved.

Bond


Matthew 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
 
Matthew 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: (What does oil represent? They had lamps.) 

Matthew 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (When to you is midnight?)

Revelation 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (How)

Revelation 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Or righteous works)
 
Mark 13:35  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (We see four instances here of our Master's coming.)

I read you stating no one will be saved after the Holy Spirit is gone. Why would He ever leave? Even in the new Jerusalem He is there in  Revelation 22:1.  And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. (This is Living Water)

I think you may be thinking that 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is talking of the Holy Spirit. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way. Satan is bound at that time; not the Holy Spirit.

My thoughts.

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #21 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 18:27:25 »
Here's the study...you told me you read it.

http://www.uebelecentral.com/rapture.htm

When the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible to get saved.

Bond


Sorry Bond, I don't remember when I said that but I must have lied.  I read it this time though and find it interesting but I disagree with his interpretations of scripture, too many for me to address here mainly cuz I'm lazy and not a good debator with the likes of you (that's a compliment).  As always, I respect your opinion but since it's not a salvation issue I won't debate it.  I'm not too lazy to debate those.

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #22 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 18:36:11 »
Here's the study...you told me you read it.

http://www.uebelecentral.com/rapture.htm

When the Holy Spirit leaves, it is impossible to get saved.

Bond


I disagree with this.  After the Church leaves, the Holy Spirit will be released from His Church Age Ministry.  With our resurrection bodies we’ll no longer have a sin nature with its accompanying desire to sin, so we won’t have need of the Holy Spirit’s counsel and conviction.  All of the ways and workings of our Creator will be clear to us so we won’t have need of supernatural insight to help us understand. (1 Cor. 13:12)  Also the promise of our inheritance will have been fulfilled so we’ll no longer have need of a guarantee that God will provide it.

At that point the Holy Spirit will be free to assume something like His Old Testament ministry on Earth, still convicting people of their sins and providing supernatural power and ability for salvation and good works.  He just won’t be sealed within believers as a guarantee of their redemption.  Eternal Security is a blessing exclusive to the Church.

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #23 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 18:58:05 »
Brother Larry there are two reasons:

1)  2 Thess 2:7-8:  7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The Holy Spirit is holding back the man of lawlessness.  The Holy Spirit will leave the earth and the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

2)  Matt 25, the parable of the 10 virgins.  The ones not ready when the Groom returns are left out in the cold.

Thus, once Jesus comes for His people, the Holy Spirit will depart the earth and those left behind will be left out in the cold.

 Bond

larry2

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #24 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:25:02 »
Brother Larry there are two reasons:

1)  2 Thess 2:7-8:  7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The Holy Spirit is holding back the man of lawlessness.  The Holy Spirit will leave the earth and the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

2)  Matt 25, the parable of the 10 virgins.  The ones not ready when the Groom returns are left out in the cold.

Thus, once Jesus comes for His people, the Holy Spirit will depart the earth and those left behind will be left out in the cold.

 Bond


Yeah I knew that's what your were saying, but where do you get the idea that it is the Holy Spirit hindering Satan. To me He works in us and we are the ones hindering Jesus from carrying out His judgment upon this world as long as we're here. Jesus must remove us first.

Even after that there are some elect left that the Lord says this in Matthew 24:22.  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
 

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #25 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:29:51 »
 ::bounce:: HEY, am I invisible here?  Did either of you read MY post?  C'mon guys, I wanna be part of this discussion.   ::mopingaround::

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #26 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:34:36 »
Brother larry, the scripture you quoted...as well as other evidence that there are believers during the first half of the tribulation is why I do not believe in the pre-trib theory.

Brother stucky, please accept my apologies.  You had stated you did not want to debate the issue and my impression is that you had "agreed to disagree."  I was trying to honor you wishes, not ignore you, I promise.

 Bond

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #27 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:45:46 »
Brother larry, the scripture you quoted...as well as other evidence that there are believers during the first half of the tribulation is why I do not believe in the pre-trib theory.

Brother stucky, please accept my apologies.  You had stated you did not want to debate the issue and my impression is that you had "agreed to disagree."  I was trying to honor you wishes, not ignore you, I promise.

 Bond

Sorry, Bond.  See how fast my memory lapses.  It's a wonder you folks even LET me participate.  I guess what I was debating though is kind of a salvation issue and not the argument that wasn't.

You said that after the rapture non-believers are left out in the cold.  When, exactly do you believe the reapture occurs?  At Jesus 2nd coming when He stops Armageddon?  If so, then we can't debate because we are discussing apples and oranges then.  I'll wait for your replay before I say anything else.   ::smile::

larry2

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #28 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:46:56 »
::bounce:: HEY, am I invisible here?  Did either of you read MY post?  C'mon guys, I wanna be part of this discussion.   ::mopingaround::

 rofl  I'm sorry, I somehow missed your post while I was typing mine I suppose. When the Church is in heaven, the Holy Spirit will still be reproving the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment during the last three and one half of the tribulation and the coming millennium. On the earth at the end of the millennium Satan will be released, gather the nations to compass the camp of the saints, and fire will come down to make crispy critters out of them. These saints had to be saved at some time.

My thoughts.
 

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #29 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:49:23 »
::bounce:: HEY, am I invisible here?  Did either of you read MY post?  C'mon guys, I wanna be part of this discussion.   ::mopingaround::

 rofl  I'm sorry, I somehow missed your post while I was typing mine I suppose. When the Church is in heaven, the Holy Spirit will still be reproving the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment during the last three and one half of the tribulation and the coming millennium. On the earth at the end of the millennium Satan will be released, gather the nations to compass the camp of the saints, and fire will come down to make crispy critters out of them. These saints had to be saved at some time.

My thoughts.
 

Since you agree with me on that point, you are correct.   ::amen!::

k-pappy

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #30 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:50:22 »
stucky,

I believe the rapture will come in the middle of the tribulation...hence the "shortening of days" for the elect.

 Bond

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #31 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 19:57:39 »
stucky,

I believe the rapture will come in the middle of the tribulation...hence the "shortening of days" for the elect.

 Bond

AHA!!!  Good.  Then I say it again, the Holy Spirit will be absent from the Church but will still perform the duties He did prior to Pentecost.  He will not restrain but He will  still be convicting people of their sins and providing supernatural power and ability for salvation and good works.  He just won’t be sealed within believers as a guarantee of their redemption.

larry2

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #32 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 20:03:02 »
stucky,

I believe the rapture will come in the middle of the tribulation...hence the "shortening of days" for the elect.

 Bond

AHA!!!  Good.  Then I say it again, the Holy Spirit will be absent from the Church but will still perform the duties He did prior to Pentecost.  He will not restrain but He will  still be convicting people of their sins and providing supernatural power and ability for salvation and good works.  He just won’t be sealed within believers as a guarantee of their redemption.


What makes you think the Holy Spirit is restricted to one place or the other? In the New Jerusalem He will be present for eternity. We must have some need of Him.  ::smile::

Stucky

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #33 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 20:28:20 »
stucky,

I believe the rapture will come in the middle of the tribulation...hence the "shortening of days" for the elect.

 Bond

AHA!!!  Good.  Then I say it again, the Holy Spirit will be absent from the Church but will still perform the duties He did prior to Pentecost.  He will not restrain but He will  still be convicting people of their sins and providing supernatural power and ability for salvation and good works.  He just won’t be sealed within believers as a guarantee of their redemption.


What makes you think the Holy Spirit is restricted to one place or the other? In the New Jerusalem He will be present for eternity. We must have some need of Him.  ::smile::

Larry, Larry, Larry, there you go putting words in my mouth again.  Where did I say the Holy Spirit was restricted to one place or another?  I believe that He is lifted from His duties ministering to the Church after the rapture but still has duties on Earth.  Do none of you ever read my posts?  Go back to my post of 6:27pm today.

larry2

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Re: First Rapture is According to Readiness
« Reply #34 on: Wed Dec 02, 2009 - 20:54:43 »
stucky,

I believe the rapture will come in the middle of the tribulation...hence the "shortening of days" for the elect.

 Bond

AHA!!!  Good.  Then I say it again, the Holy Spirit will be absent from the Church but will still perform the duties He did prior to Pentecost.  He will not restrain but He will  still be convicting people of their sins and providing supernatural power and ability for salvation and good works.  He just won’t be sealed within believers as a guarantee of their redemption.


What makes you think the Holy Spirit is restricted to one place or the other? In the New Jerusalem He will be present for eternity. We must have some need of Him.  ::smile::

Larry, Larry, Larry, there you go putting words in my mouth again.  Where did I say the Holy Spirit was restricted to one place or another?  I believe that He is lifted from His duties ministering to the Church after the rapture but still has duties on Earth.   Do none of you ever read my posts?  Go back to my post of 6:27pm today.

That's what I thought you said. What makes you think we will have no need of the guidance from the Holy Spirit in heaven if we're going to have Him throughout eternity?