Gathering the Harvests

[4WD]

Wrong? Based upon man's fairness?

First of all for the one who believes in God of the Bible, the only fairness is the fairness that comes from God.

Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.

Actually, there is not one word in the bible about God making Adam the head/representative of anyone.  That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.

Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?

I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).

If you have a more righteous plan, then let me hear it.

You have heard it again and again, and you have read it from God's word, but it doesn't align with your TULIP scenario and therefore you reject it.

Would you rather be put under a covenant works WITH your sinful nature in order to inherit eternal life? .

Why would I want that?  I am not in fact under a covenant works. to inherit eternal life.

He was created after God's image, which image consisted of wisdom, righteousness, knowledge! An image that God did not give to the rest of His creation. Besides, I KNOW what this image consisted of by understanding what the NEW MAN in Christ has been created in....

Interesting.  As stated by God, Adam was created without a knowledge of good and evil.  He obtained that after disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You say that the God did not give to the rest of His creation the image that He gave to Adam. Where, exactly, did you read that?  Genesis 5:1-3 tells that God created Adam in His own likeness.  Nothing there says anything about Adam not having that image.  It then says Adam's son was born in Adam's likeness, after his image.  Again, there is nothing there that would even suggest that the Adam's likeness was any other than the likeness in which God created him.

He knew, but allowed his wife to deceive him~Satan deceived Eve, and Adam allow his wife to lead him to disobey God. He sinned with his eyes open, unlike his wife, who was beguiled by the serpent.

There are several red flags to be cast down with that statement.  He knew but she didn't? Where do you get that?  She was deceived by Satan, but he was only deceived by Eve.  You say that like there is a difference.  What? His sin was somehow not as bad as hers?  His eyes were open but hers were what? close? Where in the world to you get such stuff?

They only had ONE commandment, which was no to eat of the tree in the midst of the beautiful garden. Many of the ten commandments did not even applied to them before their fall into sin.

First, you have no idea at all what other commandments were given to Adam and Eve.  And second, it doesn't really matter if they did or didn't; the simple truth is they disobeyed the one identified in Genesis 3. Whether there were others is moot.  It only takes one.

First, it clearly said: No, 4WD, IN ADAM all die~meaning when Adam sin, all his posterity DIE, spiritual,

Again, you are making stuff up.  All the expression, in Adam, which by the way occurs only once and that is in 1 Corinthians 15:22, is simply a signifying of being human.  That verse is, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive". "In Adam" is the physical while "in Christ" is the spiritual. As a physical being we will die, as a spiritual being we will live. There is absolutely nothing in that verse that speaks about Adam's sin having anything to do with our dying.

In getting ready to exegete on Romans 5:12, you said,

Bear with me, it's going to be detail so, there can be no misunderstanding of the truth in this scripture.

You then proceeded to eisegete the absolutely worst bit of Calvinist doctrine I have yet seen.

Just for reference, Romans 5:12 says, (ESV)  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

The first Adam separated himself and us from God

That is pure RB talk.  That is simply not in that verse anywhere.  And all your "explanation" goes south at that point.  while the sin of Adam did indeed cause some sort of a separation between Adam and God, it was not one of complete separation as you would indicate.  God continued to be able to converse with Adam and Adam understood quite well what God was saying.  There was no Total Depravity established in Adam by his sinning.  But even more, nothing about that one way or the other is discussed in that verse.  It says that "sin came into the world".  Here "the world" (as in John 3:16) is the world of mankind, the physical sphere of human beings; sin had already entered world of angels through the sin of Satan (1 Joh 3:8).  Paul adds here that death entered through sin.  As I have repeated here so often, the death that entered through sin was not physical death, but rather spiritual death.  I think it is well accepted that the physical death of the entire animal kingdom existed as a part of creation.  So clearly physical death was not introduced as a result of Adam's sin.  Moreover, from Genesis 3:22, it is self-evident that Adam's physical death was only an indirect result of his sin; Adam's physical death was the direct result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which had the property of sustaining physical life, i.e., the putting off of physical death.  Thus what entered the world as a result of Adam's sin was spiritual death; and it entered by way of Adam's spiritual death, his estrangement from God. 

Next, Paul says, so death spread to all men.  Why or how? Paul says, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". There is no ambiguity in what Paul says. It is because all sinned.  It is not because Adam sinned; rather it is because all men sinned.

As by one man~Here is the doctrine of representation~one man representing many men in the sight of God. Here is the doctrine of imputation~the act(s) of one man being applied legally/judicially to others. This doctrine is also called ancestral sin and federal headship of Adam and other manmade names.

There is no such thing there.  There is no representation even suggested there.  It is a simple statement that sin was first introduced to this earthly world by the one man, Adam.  And with that sin, Adam, died spiritually.  The manner in which everyone subsequent to Adam died spiritually was through their sins, i.e., "death spread to all men because all men sinned".  They did it to themselves. They didn't die through any representation.  They died through their own sinning.

Use of “as … so” means, “As this occurred in this specified manner … so this event also occurred that same specified way.” This powerful form of grammar is found in verses 12,15,16,18, and 19.

That is a true statement.  It is really too bad that you have not really understood that powerful form of grammar.  What exactly does the "so...as" here tell us.  It says, just as Adam died spiritually because of his sin, so also all men die spiritually because they all sin.

And death by sin~Death is the necessary consequence and result of sin before a holy and righteous God (6:23). God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). Sin and death (Gen 2:17) were brought into the human world by Adam’s sin (5:14; 6:23). Spiritual death came immediately (Genesis 2:17; Ephesains 2:1), physical death came 930 years later for Adam (Genesis 3:19; 5:5; Hebrews 9:27), and eternal death awaits final execution (Revelation 20:6,14).

But again, physical death came, not the direct result of Adam's sin, but as a result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer haveing access to the life preserving fruit of the Tree of Life.

A judicial sentence was passed ~death was assigned to all men as the just and holy punishment, even to infants and ignorant (5:14), for Adam’s singular sin in the Garden of Eden.

You keep talking about physical life and death.  Nothing in the whole of Romans 5 has anything to do with our physical life and death.  The only physical death that is mentioned is Christ's physical death on the cross.

And the entire rest of your comments there concerning Romans 5 is nothing more than an Augustinian/Calvinistic atrocious attempt to promote Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity.  You presented above the "powerful form of grammar" of the "so...as" construction.  Then in all of your discourse concerning the verses from 12 on, you ignored the truth presented by it.

The point of the "so...as" construction is in the truth presented in the "as" part of the statement.  In verse 18: (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. , the first thing we need to see is that we have "as .....upon all men....; even so ....upon all men....". Thus, whatever the "as" refers to, it is upon all men, and by the powerful form of grammar then whatever the "so" refers, it is also upon all men.

Having established the absolute consistency demanded by the "as...so" construction, we next look to see what it is that is confirmed for all men.  In verse 18 the "as" part seems clearly to indicate that by Adam's offense brought condemnation to all men.  How?  You and many others have concluded that condemnation comes upon all men at birth.  You call it Original Sin.  I agree.  So then what should we conclude came upon all men by Jesus' righteousness?  Paul said justification of life.  How? Well to be consistent, one must conclude that justification of life comes upon all men at birth.  I call that Original Grace.

So what does that mean? What is it that Paul is trying to tell us?  What Paul is saying there that the effects upon all men of what Jesus did negated entirely the effects upon all men of what Adam did.

It is important to note that none of the discussion in verses 12 through 19 have anything to do with what we have done.  None of it speaks to the effects of our sins.  Paul takes up that discussion immediately following in Chapter 6.

That entire passage speaks only to the comparison of the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience.  The fact is that what Jesus did wiped out completely the effects of what Adam did.  Only in that way could Paul say, speaking of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience that "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"[ (v.19)/i].

[RB]

That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.

I had said this to you:

Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.

So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.

Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.

4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.

As we have said above there is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates by his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death to all which came from his lions; and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, Christ is called by Paul, the last Adam.

If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted to them for their legal justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were "sanctified in Christ Jesus," the apostle says~"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from
heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

The information which the Scriptures give us of the sin of the first man, show that it was a complete subversion of nature, and the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world; they also show us that the purpose of sending Jesus Christ into the world was to destroy the empire of Satan, sin, and death.

One of the old divines said:  "On the Covenants, of two Adams, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49. As the one is called the first man, the other is called the second, even the Lord from heaven. Now, as there were innumerable multitudes of men between the first man and Him, it is plain that He is called the second man for some very peculiar reason. And what else can that be but because

He is the representative and father of all His spiritual seed, as the first man was of all his natural seed? The one is the head, the federal head of the earthly men, the other of the heavenly. Since the one is called the second man, not because He was the second in the order of creation, but because He was the second public head, it follows that the other is called the first man not because he was first created, or in opposition to his descendants, but because he was the first public head in opposition to Christ the second.

So, the two Adams are the heads of the two covenants. The one the representative of all who are under the covenant of works, communicating his image unto them; the other the representative of all who are under the covenant of grace, and communicating His image unto them. By the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, and by the obedience of the other many shall be made
righteous."

Again, you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.

I asked you: "Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?"

I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).

4WD, you saying you most certainly do, and proving the same are worlds apart! Again, God provided Adam all he needed to obey, he did not have a body of SIN and DEATH as we all have by nature. He provided Adam with a will created after His image, FREE from corruption.

Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~

Romans 5:12~Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons. This does not mean, as some explain it, that infants become involved in the consequences of Adam’s sin without his guilt. Adam stood as the head, the forefather and representative of all his posterity They were all created in him; and in the guilt of his sin, as well as its consequence, they became partakers.  These truths, that sin, death, and condemnation come upon all by one man, are clearly taught in the following verses, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. Through the offense of one, many are dead. The judgment was by the one that sinned to condemnation. By one man’s offense death reigned by one. By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.

Adam’s sin was as truly the sin of every one of his posterity, as if it had been personally committed by him. It is only in this way that all could be involved in its consequences. Besides, it is only in this light that it is illustrative of justification by Christ. Believers truly die
with Christ, and pay the debt in Him by their union or oneness with Him. It belongs not to us to inquire how these things can be. We receive them on the testimony of God. Secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children. It is revealed in the scriptures, and it would be a sign of unbelief to reject God's testimony.

Your post is long which that's okay, yet for me to answer it in the manner in which I should, I'm going to break it down into one, or two more posts.

[4WD]

So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words. The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.

First off, all that "communicated" stuff is little more than contrived verbiage to sound like you're correct in your analysis. The obvious reason for that is that so that in what follows you can claim that the effects of Adam's disobedience, his sin, is imputed to the whole of humanity, while the effect of Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is imputed to only a few, namely those you claimed to be "elected" to salvation. The very idea that Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is so ineffectual compared to Adam's disobedience, his sin, is truly a slap in the face of God, both the Father and the Son. You should be very careful to even listen to such garbage.

How is Adam a type for Jesus?  That is well explained in the verses that follow.  And irony is that you reject it all.  You made a big deal out of the "so....as" powerful form of grammar and then you proceed to ignore what it actually says.  In your reply #33, you spoke of 1 Corinthians 15:22.  Ironically, you almost got it, and then you lost it again.  It is true that in that verse we have a case in which Adam is indeed a type, a figure, of Christ. 

However, the subject there was the resurrection of the dead. Paul says there, "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Cor 15:19-22). Here obviously the subject is physical death. Clearly here Paul is speaking of every last human being who has ever lived or will ever live. All men will die; all men will be resurrected.

The interesting feature is that this type, this figure, deals with the end of life.  The passage in Romans five clearly deals with the beginning of life. In the 1 Corinthian 15 type, it is the physical.  In the Romans 5 type it is the spiritual.  In both cases the effect of one man, Jesus, completely undoes the effect of one man, Adam.  Your error in all of this is that you proclaim Adam as a type of Jesus for all humanity in death but only for some in life.

Paul wrote, (ESV)  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18).  

RB says, "No, that is not right.  It should be, (RB) "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for only some men" . Here the some men you have in mind are your so-called elect, the elect of Calvin.

The point you refuse to see here is that Paul is speaking about the effects brought upon all men at birth (or at conception). 

Adam is a type for Jesus in the spiritual life of all men in birth and in the physical life of all men in death.  In both cases, the effect of Jesus' obedience undoes the effect of Adam's disobedience.  And that my dear brother in Christ is at the very heart of grace. You claim allegiance to original sin; I claim allegiance to original grace.

4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.

Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Abraham was justified by his belief, his faith, in God.

[4WD]

Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons.

Yes, of course, I did intend Romans 5:12.  And, of course, you deny what it actually says.  What it says is that the reason that death (spiritual death) passed to all men is because all men sinned.  No one can sin not in their own persons.  Sin is, by every possible definition, in their own persons. Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die......20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[RB]

Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

[RB]

Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

[4WD]

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

Your joy and perfect peace comes from thinking you have been appointed as one of the elect.  And yet, you cannot prove that you really have been so appointed.  You think and you hope that is the case.  But that is all it is.  You have no biblical assurance that you have been selected.

[3 Resurrections]

That's not so, 4WD.  We do have "biblical assurance" of this. 

"WE KNOW that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren..." (I John 3:14).
"By this shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples; if ye have love one to another..." (John 13:35).

And just how do we have any assurance that we "love the brethren"?

"By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (I John 5:2).

John's message of biblical assurance was pretty consistent.

[4WD]

That's not so, 4WD.  We do have "biblical assurance" of this. 

"WE KNOW that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren..." (I John 3:14).
"By this shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples; if ye have love one to another..." (John 13:35).

And just how do we have any assurance that we "love the brethren"?

"By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (I John 5:2).

John's message of biblical assurance was pretty consistent.

First in response to you, Jesus, in John 13:35, was speaking to His disciples at the last supper.  There is no basis for assuming that applies to you. With respect to 1 John 5:2, who do you know that actually keeps the commandments of God?  I have known unbelievers who probably, in reality, kept the commandments of God better than some believers I have known.  That passage, in and of itself, would convince many of the Judaizing Jews of Paul's days that they were saved when they most likely were not.  The problem with verses like 1 John 3:14 and 1 John 5:2 is how well do such admonitions need to be adhered to in order to prove that one is saved.  There really is no answer for that. 1 John 5:4 says "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world." Who do you know that fits that description?  Are you sure you fit that description?

It is interesting that those following Calvin in the early days could never state for sure that they were among the elect. That being the case because according to Calvin God chose the elect based solely upon the counsel of his own will. Based upon verses like you posted, they would keep notes, either in their minds or actually in writing, about all the good things they did hoping that they would be keeping the commandments of God good enough to be counted as one of the elect, the born of God.

Passages such as those you cited are meant, not as a test of having been saved, but rather as admonitions to the saved as what their behavior should be.  Once you make them a test of having been saved, you are then into a salvation by works, whatever you think "works" are.

Second, I am thoroughly convinced that we are saved by grace through our faith.  And it is in that faith that we have assurance of our salvation.  And thankfully, that is not dependent upon "our works".  My comments in reply #41 were to RB who believes that faith is a gift to the elect and they are strictly chosen solely by the counsel of God's own will, not by anything having to do with the individual.  That being the case, I repeat, he cannot prove that he is actually one of the elect.

We could have a very indepth discussion of the assurance of salvation, but that probably should be a topic for another discussion.

[3 Resurrections]

Your question regarding the I John 5:4 verse, "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world."  You asked if anyone fits that description, and if I did.  The answer is in the very next verse.  "Who is he that overcometh the world, but HE THAT BELIEVETH THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD?"

That statement describes both you and me.  Didn't Christ tell the disciples, "In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD."  You and I share this victory as overcomers.  "We are more than conquerors THROUGH HIM THAT LOVED US."  Our overcoming the world is a vicarious one, since we are IN CHRIST, and share in His victory that has overcome the world. 

Our discussion was of a person having self-assurance of their election.  We are told to "make our calling and election sure".  This is making our election assured to our own conscience - not that we were ever responsible as being the author of that election.  The difference between EVIDENCE and CAUSE. 

I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.  The rest (which are a small minority of "tares" compared to the "wheat" harvest) are left in their blindness, which they are very willing to remain in considering their state, even from conception.

[4WD]

I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.  The rest (which are a small minority of "tares" compared to the "wheat" harvest) are left in their blindness, which they are very willing to remain in considering their state, even from conception.

Personally, I think that the idea that faith is a gift to those to whom God chooses to give it is a truly despicable character assassination of God; not because He chooses to give a gift to some, but because he doesn't give the gift to the rest and then condemns them because they do not have faith.

[3 Resurrections]

I think it is very presumptuous of you, 4WD, to attempt the role of being the judge of God Himself.  "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"  Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none.  "There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not."  How could it possibly be a "character assassination" of God to give Him praise for rescuing many - even the majority of mankind - out of that condition? 

You seem to assign an entitlement to mankind - a so-called debt that God owes humanity to rescue all without a single exception from their innate, fallen condition, or if He does not do so, He is an autocratic fiend.  Left to themselves, no man has the innate ability to choose life.  This ability must be granted by the Spirit, or it will never emerge spontaneously from anyone.  Our ability to choose life by our own volition has been corrupted from conception.   

The fate for those who are not given the gift of faith that "flips the switch" and initiates their eternal life as a child of God is NOT to be barbecued for all eternity in the flames of a tortured existence.  The fate of those who remain separated from God at the last judgment is to be destroyed from existence - both body and soul.   This is only the inevitable result of a sinner standing in the absolutely holy presence of God's "consuming fire" of utter perfection.     

You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also. 

[4WD]

You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also.

Not hardly.  But you sound like a person who would approve of a basketball referee who calls fouls only on the team he has decided shouldn't win.

[4WD]

Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none. 

And that while looking at you, it would seem.

[3 Resurrections]

Of course that includes me also.  I could take you to the exact location in my city when I was in an elementary school chapel service where I first realized that I couldn’t ride on the coattails of my parents’ own standing before God to claim a similar status as a child of God myself. 

I remember very well the sense of shock in realizing at last that I had my own sinful status that needed a Savior.  My believing parents couldn’t speak for me.   It was like a still small voice whispering to my soul that woke me up to see myself as I really was before God’s utter righteousness.  I can’t claim credit for that at all.

[4WD]

Oh, of course; that still small voice.  How many of those have I been told about that ended up being complete nonsense. If effective in your case, then lucky for you.  I am more inclined to Paul's technique outlined in Romans 10.

[RB]

I think it is very presumptuous of you, 4WD, to attempt the role of being the judge of God Himself.  "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"  Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none.  "There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not."  How could it possibly be a "character assassination" of God to give Him praise for rescuing many - even the majority of mankind - out of that condition? 

You seem to assign an entitlement to mankind - a so-called debt that God owes humanity to rescue all without a single exception from their innate, fallen condition, or if He does not do so, He is an autocratic fiend.  Left to themselves, no man has the innate ability to choose life.  This ability must be granted by the Spirit, or it will never emerge spontaneously from anyone.  Our ability to choose life by our own volition has been corrupted from conception.   

The fate for those who are not given the gift of faith that "flips the switch" and initiates their eternal life as a child of God is NOT to be barbecued for all eternity in the flames of a tortured existence.  The fate of those who remain separated from God at the last judgment is to be destroyed from existence - both body and soul.   This is only the inevitable result of a sinner standing in the absolutely holy presence of God's "consuming fire" of utter perfection.     

You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also.

+1 for my man 3R's.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD, it was hardly “luck” that brought me a realization of my need for a Savior.  That’s a little too casual a way to describe a soul passing from death unto life by the Spirit’s work, which is hardly just a happy accident. 

And there’s not a particle of difference between what I described as my experience and Romans 10 which you brought up.  These are not in opposition to each other.  I truly was not seeking after Christ at that moment, yet He was manifested to me anyway, just as Romans 10:20 said of the Gentile world.

Romans 10:17 sums up Paul’s thought on the subject when he said,  “So then faith cometh by hearing, and HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD”.  My faith came through the means of hearkening to a message of the gospel, and that ability granted to me to actually hear and comprehend it was due to the FIRST CAUSE - “The Word of God”.

That “Word of God” Paul spoke of is the incorruptible Seed - Jesus Christ.  Just like it says in I Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of incorruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD (logos) which liveth and abideth forever.” 

Without the Spirit waking me up to my fallen state, the thought would not have occurred to me that I had any personal spiritual need whatever for Christ Jesus.

[4WD]

Without the Spirit waking me up to my fallen state, the thought would not have occurred to me that I had any personal spiritual need whatever for Christ Jesus.

I wonder if RB will give you a +1 on the Spirit waking you up to your fallen state?  I suspect he would reject that one out of hand.

Actually, on that one I might tend to at least agree with you. But about faith being a gift I must reject as completely unscriptural.  We believe in God in basically the same way we believe in anything or anyone else.  It comes as Paul said in Romans 10.  We hear [or in this day and age, we read] about God, about Christ, about who God is and what He has done.  We become convinced of the truth of what we hear or read. For some, depending partially upon how they have been raised, it is not that difficult to become convinced of that truth and place their trust in God and His word.  For others it may not be so easy and it can take a great deal of time and energy to finally come to the truth.  For still others it doesn't happen and they reject it.

What you said here

I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.

is incorrect; the gift is salvation that comes from God's grace by way of the faith that you have come to through hearing the gospel message; the gospel that is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"

[RB]

I wonder if RB will give you a +1 on the Spirit waking you up to your fallen state?  I suspect he would reject that one out of hand.

Actually, on that one I might tend to at least agree with you. But about faith being a gift I must reject as completely unscriptural.

Concerning faith consider: The more I am exercised herein, the more I see into it and enjoy justification by Christ alone, and more clearly see our believing cannot justify us. Yet I deny not but the power to believe is from the Spirit, who is the life of motion in faith. The life of faith is the life of Chris living IN US~ what faith is, and what it does, and wherein it differs from presumption, etc.

God has given faith in His to know, assent and believe the Truth. See Hebrews 11:3;  Acts28:24. This encourages us to go to God for all we need. {Acts 26:18} This enables us to suffer for Christ. Philippians 1:28,29. This enables us to conquer enemies. Ephesians 6:16. It makes our afflictions easy to bear. It enables us to obey. Romans 6:17. It helps us to cleave to God, Acts 11:23, and to His word~Psalms 119:30,31. This helps us to hope in His mercy. Psalms 147:11... Faith causes us to depend upon Jesus Christ alone for life and salvation. What more necessary and useful in this life than faith?

There is a light in faith, and as our blind eyes and dark understandings are enlightened; Ephesians 1:18, 5:13; so accordingly, we are filled with the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:19.  The fullness of knowledge is that perfection we are to press after. Philippinas 3:12, Col.2:2, 4:12. This sight shows us our justification to be in Christ alone. And the seeking of a further measure of knowledge is a seeking to be justified. Galatians 2:17 Because this knowledge is that which justifies our Conscience. Faith cannot satisfy justice nor merit the pardon of the least sin. Only Christ can do that. And that exposition that gives most glory to Christ and least to man, I believe is the truth.

Faith nor unbelief can make anything true or false, nor cause the being of that which had no being before. Therefore, when Christ, by His Spirit and Word of truth, declares and reveals to a soul that all his sins are forgiven and washed away in the blood of Christ, etc., it is a certain truth, and it is “the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” Ist John 5:6.... Therefore, seeing we are justified by Christ before we believed it, may we not believe that faith in us was either a cause or a means, or any instrument of it, but only a means of our receiving the knowledge of it, and of our enjoying the comfort of it?

That faith or anything in us is not a cause, means, or condition, required to partake of the Covenant of Grace, justification or salvation, but only fruits and effects of the Covenant. That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence; Heb.11:1,2; as it respects the taking away of sin from off the conscience; for indeed the debt is paid by the blood of Christ alone, and we are therefore said to be justified by His blood. Romans 5:9.... For indeed, as Christ Jesus our Lord has paid the debt, “the Lord having laid upon Him the iniquities of us all,” so does He declare this satisfaction and acceptation of us in Christ by faith. Faith is the eye of the understanding whereby the soul comes to see the great things which God the Father has prepared for them who love Him.

Most idolize their believing. They live upon it; fetch all their comfort from it and not from God in Christ. The work of faith is only to assent to the truth of what the Spirit
in the word says, and receive its testimony.

We must be in Christ, before we can bear fruit; John.15:4; therefore we must be in Christ, before we can believe; he that hath the Spirit of Christ hath Christ. We have the Spirit of Christ before we believe, therefore we have Christ before we believe, Romans 8:9-11. Men are ordained unto eternal life before they believe. Acts 13:48 Faith is a grace of the Covenant on God’s part to be given to those who are given to Christ; faith is given to some, that by it they may know their interest in Christ, and by it live upon Him. Faith is no condition of the Covenant, therefore they mistake who conceive faith to be a condition of the Covenant, either required on man’s part to partake of the Covenant of Grace, or given to men, and then required of them as a condition; although the Scripture expresses, that he that believes shall be saved, yet is not faith any condition of salvation; but such expressions are to be considered as a declaration to us what persons shall be saved; namely, such as believe. It is an information to such as know not who shall be saved, and if any desire to know who shall be saved; the answer is, he that believes shall be saved. John.3:16.  If faith did
give us interest in Christ, when faith did not appear to act, it would appear to us, that we had no interest in Christ, and that we were not justified by him.

It is not men’s believing, but the Object of faith, that gives faith its denomination, or name, for there be divers kinds of faith; there is a natural faith; Luke8:13; and a divine faith, or the faith of God’s Elect. Titus 1:1 Faith and its object is not to be separated, because faith and its object is one and the same.

It is against truth and reason to believe that by believing I make myself a son, and God my father. If I believe myself to be a King’s son, will believing it make me so? If I believe brass is gold, will it be so? He that is a Prince knows not that he is so until sometime after he is so, yet he is a son and a Prince whether he knows it or believes it or no; therefore, believing makes us not sons, but by it we see ourselves to be sons and enjoy the comfort of it by believing.

Some hold the act of faith is that which God accepts to Justification, but this is a mistake, because it makes Christ inferior to faith, and in ascribing such an honor to faith, they dishonor Christ, for although they do not exclude Christ wholly, yet in the act of Justification, it gives all to faith. They say, ‘as the act of Adam’s sin condemned him, so our act of faith justifies us.’ Adam’s sin was enough to condemn him and us, but our faith cannot save others, nor ourselves. They reply, ‘but we are justified by faith.’ Christ is called faith. “Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” Galatians 3:23..... “Before faith came;” which must be understood of Christ. We are justified before God in His sight only by Christ. Romans3:24 “My righteous servant (Christ) shall justify many.” Isaiah 53:11..... We are not justified before God by faith which is in us, but by Christ, by his blood; justified by his blood. Romans 5:9. That which saves us is the blood of Christ/life and death of Jesus Christ hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his blood. Revelation 1:5. Also we are said to be justified by faith, because it is the instrument whereby we apprehend and apply Christ our Righteousness; by faith we know ourselves to be justified. Romans 5:1 Though faith be a grace of God, yet as it is an act, it is a work, and to be justified by it, is to be justified by a work of our own; for with the heart {man} believes. Romans 10:9-10. [b That which justifies us, must be perfect, and so it is no act of ours[/b]; for all our Righteousness are as filthy rags, etc.; Isaiah 64:6... Not of works, least any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9.

The Scripture says, that "Christ dwells in our hearts by faith," but where does it say, that we are in Christ by faith? The being in Christ, as in Ephesians 1:4, is by election, and not by faith.

They rob Christ of the greatest part of his work and his glory, and give it to faith, and set faith in Christ's throne. And an hundred errors more may be reckoned up
that will follow this opinion.

To believe that Jesus is the Christ implies a seeing and knowing all to be in Christ for life, and to trust in Him for pardon and life, and rest upon him for it. He that thus believes in Christ, is brought over to Christ, and so centered upon Him, that he will not go from him. As Peter saith, “Lord, to whom shall we go; thou hast the words of eternal life.” John.6:68... “My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is
from him.” Psalms 62:5. For the most part we are indebted to....Samuel Richardson {Divine Consolations, Part Two, 1649}

[4WD]

Concerning faith consider: The more I am exercised herein, the more I see into it and enjoy justification by Christ alone, and more clearly see our believing cannot justify us.

So many words; so little truth.  That you think that faith in God was a characteristic of Jesus Christ, who is Himself God, tells me that you have no idea even what faith is.  How in all that is holy you can attribute the distinctive of "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1), to Jesus, even in His existence as a human being, is quite unbelievable. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." And yet you seem to suggest that He didn't know that to be absolute truth but hoped that was true or was simply convinced that it was so. And not knowing what faith in God means, says that you also don't know it means that we have faith in God.

Also, I don't know anyone who thinks that our believing can justify us.  So why would you bother to even argue against that? Only God can justify us.  When Paul said "we are justified by faith" (Rom 3:28; 5:1; Gal 3:24), he wasn't suggesting that faith was the means whereby we are justified; however, he was declaring that faith was the basis upon which God declares us as righteous. 

Perhaps I will come back to address some of the other misconceptions presented there.

[3 Resurrections]

Of course we are justified by faith as Paul indicated in those texts.  The question still remains "Just how do we get that faith to begin with?".  Scripture tells us "What hast thou, that thou hast not received?"  "Every good gift, and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights..."  And faith is one of those gifts, as in "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God..."

You want to claim we can initiate a saving faith on our own.  That is impossible for a spiritually dead person.  We all began life that way - dead spiritually from conception.  Dead people don't initiate action of any kind until they are acted upon by a Power outside themselves.  Like I said before, the Holy Spirit has to come and "flip the switch" by implanting life within us as a desire to seek God.  That desire does not come of our own power, for we had none to begin with, being dead to all things spiritual. 

Now, once faith is present after the Holy Spirit implants it, faith is then exercised to varying levels of operation in each individual.  That is when we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..."   But even then we are told "For it is GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU both to will and to do of His good pleasure." 

To claim credit for our abilities beyond what scripture tells us is to worship the creature more than the Creator.  Totally imbalanced thinking.

[4WD]

To claim credit for our abilities beyond what scripture tells us is to worship the creature more than the Creator.  Totally imbalanced thinking.

Where in scripture does it tell us believing is beyond the ability of anyone?

You want to claim we can initiate a saving faith on our own.

No, I have never said that.  We do not initiate a saving faith.  God does that.  The question is how does God do that?  It would seem that you think God simply zaps faith into you. But He doesn't.  That is not how belief or faith in anything is developed.  God has given us His revelation; both general revelation and special revelation.  It is specifically in the special revelation, His written word, that we have the necessary information and data to first believe that what is said there is truth. And then believing that what God as said to us is truth, we can then begin to believe in Him.  To believe someone and to believe in someone are not the same.  But in both, we are the actors.  We are the ones who believe what God says, we mentally accept what God says it true.  But that is not sufficient.  We then, believing it to be truth, place our trust in what God says.  That is the message of Romans 10.  We hear, we learn, we accept the word about Christ and we place our trust in that word about Christ.  That word, which comes initially from God, is relayed to us either in speech [or writings] from another.  God initiates it by providing His truth in the form of His written word.

[RB]

Perhaps I will come back to address some of the other misconceptions presented there.

Please do......I'll do the same with your post later as time permits. Before stopping, let me add a word or two.

  It would seem that you think God simply zaps faith into you. But He doesn't.  That is not how belief or faith in anything is developed.

No sir, that's not how it works, it is the way you desire others to believe it does, so you can keep them from seeing the truth!

God creates a new man within his elect children, by His almighty power, so with the new man they have a FREE WILL and power WITH THAT WILL to hear, see, and understand...that my friend is how it truly works...... according to the testimony of God himself. Thank you most blessed God that this is so! Without which, NONE would ever come to see, hear, and understand.

But first, please come back and address a few points in my other post, as you suggest you may do.

[3 Resurrections]

Christ is called both the “AUTHOR” and also the “FINISHER OF OUR FAITH”.

We were dead on the operating table, and yes, God had to “zap” us into life before we were capable of having a heartbeat that could respond in a living manner.

Believing is merely that first living response of one who has been “zapped”, if you will, into a spiritually living person with a new birth.  “This is the WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”  (John 6:28). 

Christ once told the religious leaders of His days, “Ye believe NOT, because ye are not of my sheep.”  The identity as a “sheep” must be established by God first, or belief will never follow.

[4WD]

Where is your ear tag identifying you as one of the sheep?

[4WD]

Perhaps Res 3 and RB could get together and agree about the zapping process.

[3 Resurrections]

My "ear tag"?  Christ already told you how sheep are identified.  "My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME.  And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." 

I was made a sheep first, which enabled me to hear God's voice calling to me as a child in that chapel service long ago.   

The sheep do not follow the voice of a stranger.  Over time, I have ditched a number of "strangers" to follow the voice and leading of my true Shepherd.  A couple of false pastor/shepherds, the company of a very dear congregation with which I cannot have real unity anymore, and any close spiritual fellowship with my spouse.  These are sacrifices I am willing to make for the One who gave me eternal life, and I have been given the promise that I will never perish or be plucked out of His hand.

[4WD]

How come He didn't make you a sheep before you came across those "false pastors/shepherds"?

Oh well, don't bother.  I think I will just step aside and let this one go where it goes.  It is way out beyond my league.  You and RB can take it wherever you wish.

[3 Resurrections]

Those false pastors/shepherds were revealed for what they were some time after my chapel service experience at elementary school when I first became a "sheep".   Later on, I was 16 and 36 years old respectively when I saw those other false pastors in my rear-view mirror.  Sometimes it takes a while before a false pastor/shepherd is manifested for what they really are.  RB knows exactly which one of these false pastors I am talking about, since he was sitting there along with me for a number of years. 

It was 7 years ago when I (sadly) had to leave the last congregation.  For my spouse, we are still married after 44 years, though we are not united on many points of doctrine and cannot discuss them at all for the sake of peace in the home.   I figure they are close enough to glory that they will know better on these things before long. 

[RB]

For my spouse, we are still married after 44 years,

My dear brother...GOOD FOR YOU and I pray that God would give you two many more GOOD YEARS together in all sincerity. Brother Red.

Sherry and I and been together close to 56 years if she was in the Catholic church they would make her a saint living with me that long.