1. Yes, given in 3 main parts, Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, because all 3 of those Bible chapters directly parallel each other. So naturally that can mean they each contain some different things between them also. Don't strain at a gnat to find fault. Keep it simple.
2. You said nothing about its link to Revelation that I also mentioned.
My post was already too long, so I thought it would not be good to do so. I was focusing on the subject of "not one stone left upon another", not on the Revelation. But I will say this, for now,......Your interpretation of Revelation is much
like the Premillennialist in only you different with them concerning the church being removed, but most all other of doctrines concerning Revelation you and they are in agreement concerning, you both apply much in a literal sense, instead of allowing God to give its interpretation to us with clear scriptures from both the OT and especially so from the Lord's teaching and his apostles. You and the Premillennialist believe that Revelation from chapter four to eighteen takes place within a literal seven year period at the end of the church age with some minor differences~wereas other believers as myself, believe that Revelation from chapter one until Revelation 20:9 covers the period from the death of Jesus Christ, until he comes again at the last day. Chapter four until 20:9 give us a birds eye view from the death of Jesus Christ until his second coming at different angles with each adding something the other did not give
. Of course, there is the Preterist and the Historic camp that depends heavily
on extra-biblical help to give their own slant on Revelation, that I will not deal with now since it is not part of this discussion. This is brief, but enough for now.
3. You are adding falseness to what our Lord Jesus said with quoting from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation". It is ignorance to assume someone quoting a source means you don't have to read it to know the subject. You do have to have read it, or go and read it if you haven't yet. It's as simple as that.
You obviously did not read what I said carefully~here is what I said:
So, what our Lord is saying is this: "he that readeth Daniel, or has read Daniel, then let him understand DANIEL by what I'm saying NOW!" Now, I have heard some men twist that and say that you must understand Daniel BEFORE you can understand what Jesus was saying, but that is so wrong. Jesus gave freely to us a commentary on Daniel's dark sayings by what he was saying at that time to three of his disciples
I highlighted in red, showing that I said that he who reads Daniel, can understand what Daniel said by what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24.
Daniel spoke in dark sayings~ Jesus in Matthew 24 gives to us a commentary on Daniel's dark sayings, and dark they are without help from the NT from, Jesus, Paul, and John.
What you've been taught to do is to deny... what the Book of Daniel shows about the "abomination of desolation" involving the placing of an idol abomination in the temple at Jerusalem, just so you can keep your traditions of men that say the falsehood that it's about destruction of the temple in 69 A.D.
No sir, I was actually taught very close to the lies that you and others hold to~it was not until I search for myself to test if what I had been taught was so, or not, and soon found that I was holding to "make believe fiction story
" that men like Tim Lahaye used for that very purpose!
that say the falsehood that it's about destruction of the temple in 69 A.D.[
Do not teach or believe that...again, you do not know how to differentiate between Amill~idealist (which I' am) and Preterists/Historicism which are closely connected, but somewhat different.
4. Of course Jesus and Paul were speaking of the same event in Matt.24 and 2 Thess.2 about the coming Antichrist and desolation of a 'standing' Jewish temple in Jerusalem. It's for the end of this world, and Christ's Book of Revelation also covers it.
I agree, just not in the same sense as you do, which we shall see later.
In 69 A.D., the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and when trying to seize control of the temple it burned down.
Okay, I was NOT there, so I assume
that's correct based upon history.
They were not able to go inside the temple and spiritually desolate it with the placing of an idol abomination and commanding the Jews to worship it,
Neither you or I know that to be true, so the point that we can support bible doctrine WITH THAT! Anyone who does so, are basing their doctrine on assumption
, and as I said yesterday:
Assumption is the mother of errors. Secular History may be true, but it also may not be. For "History is written by the victors," and we should never assume that what is written is the truth just because it finds its way into renowned books.
which is what the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about.
Wrong, seriously wrong! Your doctrine is based upon pure
By definition, the Abomination of Desolation
is something abhorrent to God that will bring to ruin or devastation. And when we search the Bible diligently, comparing scripture with scripture (the correct form in Biblical hermeneutics), we find that in almost all instances it is dealing in some way with God's people falling away or forsaking Him
, to serve the gods of the heathen nations. In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry
of the Lord's people in turning away from Him to serve false gods. It is in the context of Matthew 24 that we find that the disgusting (abominable) thing that God hates is His people going after false gods. It is this abomination that will leave them in ruin (desolate). The scripture is replete with examples of this abomination.
You have it backward, it is NOT what is abominable to Jews
, but what is abominable to God
that he sees in the temple of God. Let it be known that the ONLY temple that God considered a temple AFTER the death of his Son can only be one or two things: The outwardly professing NT churches, or the body of saints, either or, and no other! Jesus would NEVER refer to the old Temple in Jerusalem by that sacred word holy
some forty years AFTER HIS DEATH
, the very thought of that is blasphemy! So he must had been speaking of another temple where abominations could be clearly seen that he would make desolate as God did to Israel of old.
By the preponderance of evidence in scripture, the setting up of the abomination of desolation will be the beginning of the end. This event, which will cause God's elect to flee from the adulterous Church
, precedes the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. The reason that the Church is brought to desolation is because of its unfaithfulness. (2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5)
The growing apostasy in the Church caused the house of God to be divided (Mark 3:25
) and overcome by those with the spirit of antichrist. God expressly told us of these things before.
1st Timothy 4:1-2~"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"
When the people of the Churches take heed to seducing spirits of antichrist (1st John 4:3)
, and depart from obedience in the doctrines of God, they become the man of lawlessness
. And this is the establishment of the man of sin ruling in the Holy Temple of God
. The pastors are no longer teaching faithfully, He causes the Church to commit spiritual fornication in going after false doctrines. This is what will ultimately bring the house to desolation.
Luke 11:17~"But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth".
You cannot have a house where the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of antichrist dwell in peace. Because it is a house divided, and it must fall. The Church is to be the light of the world, and if that light were darkness, then the lawful man of God must flee from it. And this is how the unfaithful Church will fall. The lawless man, moved by the spirit of antichrist, comes professing the name of Christ. But his actions gives him away as he spiritually silences the true witnesses (Revelation 11:7~Jews and Gentiles...Romans 11!
) in the Churches so that they are spiritually as dead. The wolves in sheep's clothing will have deceived so greatly that the true doctrines and testimonies are silenced there. The people there will hate the faithful witness, because their faithfulness to the doctrines of Christ is like torment to the unfaithful church
. By rebuking and exhorting the Church to keep the laws of God faithfully, they offend many because those under deception don't want to hear of obedience to God's laws. They want to be ruled in accordance with the imaginations of their own heart, "as if" they were their own gods. They don't want God's word alone to be the authority, and so they silence the believer's testimony. This is spiritually speaking, killing them that they cannot work for Christ.
Revelation 11:7-8~"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
The testimony of the witnesses (Acts 1:8) who received power of God is not finished until the time of the end, when all Israel has been sealed and Christ will return. When the faithful witnesses of the Church have finished their task of witnessing to the world, those led of that spirit, Satan, will silence them in the Church. The city where our Lord was crucified was Jerusalem, which again illustrates this is speaking about the Church
. But note here that this city had become "Spiritually" as Sodom and Egypt. Again, a clear illustration that it was in apostasy
Jesus placed an extraordinary emphasis on the prophecy of the abomination, instructing that those who read should also "understand." This alerts us that Matthew 24 must be looked at carefully, in the light of other testimonies and the prophecy of Daniel
. This is the only way that we will understand what God (not man) means by it. This is the same type language promoting understanding as can be read in Revelation chapter 13. There God says, "Let he who hath wisdom and understanding
, count the number of the beast." Again, God is alerting us that this is not an easy prophecy to understand, so we have to understand this with the wisdom and understanding given of Christ. Certainly, our finite minds are not able to interpret the infinite mind of God, thus scripture must interpret scripture
. Let those who have the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:14-16
) through the Spirit of Christ, understand. By allowing the Word of God to define and explain itself, we have the understanding God exhorts us to. Popular authors, political interpretations, or carnal and worldly ideas about the nation of Israel cannot be allowed to mislead us. Even if those interpretations "appear" right, appearances are deceiving (Mark 13:22; 2nd Corinthians 10:7; Revelation 13:11
). Our understanding will come from the authority of scripture in the wisdom of the mind of Christ, as His Spirit witnesses with ours (Romans 8:16
). We cannot do or follow whatever "seems" right in our own eyes. We follow and are in obedience to, the authority of the word of God.
It is truly amazing that so critical an expression as, "abomination of desolation," has been so misinterpreted. These are words that have been used repeatedly and extensively in scripture. Abomination is almost exclusively used in scripture to signify "God's people" going after the false gods of the unbelievers
. Likewise, Desolation is an unambiguous word. It illustrates their ruin. So why have these obvious truths been so neglected and ignored in many theological circles in favor of a political or physical understanding of the phrase? Could it be that the Biblically validated conclusion contradicts much of Judaic and Premillennial Church tradition? Nevertheless, the fact is, the Holy Temple after the cross is Christ, those in Christ, and the assembly of those saints (Church)
. Clearly, the stones of the Holy Temple were not in the building destroyed in A.D. 70. For in A.D. 70, the holy Temple, the Holy Place, the Jerusalem of God, was the Church.
Luke 20:16-17~"He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?"
Head stone for a rebuilding of the Holy Temple, not the pile of bricks destroyed in A.D. 70. The New Testament Holy Temple could not have been that building, nor have God call it a Holy Place where abomination would make it desolate at that time. It already was left desolate in God's eyes by the death of Christ. If we read and understand as Christ instructs, then we must come to the knowledge that earthly Jerusalem was left desolate of God at the cross, not years later in A.D. 70. That is to say, according to the Biblical narrative. The judgment of God (blindness in part) had already occurred, and there is not a single word in scripture about a second judgment in A.D. 70
. Yes, there are a few scriptures "privately interpreted" to mean that, but once examined in the light of the whole Bible, they don't hold up under the light. Christ spoke not of a temple (which wasn't of God or Holy) made of physical stones, He spoke of abomination in a Holy place. He spoke of something far more important than a pile of physical bricks falling in the middle east. He spoke of those who were spiritually bricks, and how many would be deceived and be brought to desolation. The countless examples of such judgements of God for such abominations are illustrated vividly in Old Testament Israel.
When the saints flee to the mountains, we must interpret that by authority of scripture as God intended, not by secular records or by biased historians like Josephus. At this time of trial, the careless will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Because they are deceived and are unaware that the Holy Temple is being defiled. Satan has deceived them so that they are spiritually "marked" as being part of the Beast, his kingdom who bow down to serve his likeness or image.
Daniel 11:31-33~"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."
Here we see the characteristics of this time of the abomination of desolation. Many that are disobedient to break God's covenant are being deceived by flatteries. They pollute and profane the sanctuary, unconcerned with doctrine. In other words, by the pastors and teachers giving praise for their unlawfulness, representing them favorably when they transgress, that is the Church being corrupted by flatteries. Pastors telling them things that they want to hear, instead of the truth.
Isaiah 30:9-11~"That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
They are in essence calling for sacrifice and offering to cease. They don't want to hear the man of law, they want to hear the man of sin or lawlessness. And the pastors give them what they want, as this is the flattery of abominations to God. i.e., the Church wants to hear that they can be saved by free will, that divorce is not a sin to God, that abortion can be justified. They want to hear that our own faith "in" Christ saves us, that children are not really a blessing, that women can rule as pastors in the Church, that an earthly kingdom of Christ is coming, that the salvation of Israel was postponed, etc., etc. The rulers flatter the Church by telling them that all these abominations are not unlawful to God, they are simply non-essential doctrines
. They prophesy smooth things, signs of salvation that are lies rather than the truth. Because that is what the unfaithful "want" to hear. In the prophesy of the Man of lawlessness in the Holy Temple of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2
, God warns of this spirit of antichrist that deceives in the Temple.
2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
It is for this reason that God will judge the Church and bring it to desolation. What many Christians fail to fully understand is that Satan is the great deceiver. And if everyone could "see" this and knew his methods, then he wouldn't be the great deceiver. That's the "whole point" of God describing him as Deceiver, Liar, Seducer, Flatterer, etc. These are the deceptive ways that the spirit of antichrist comes in and fools people of the Church into thinking that the doctrines that they hold are the truth. Satan comes with a doctrine (1st Timothy 4:1
) so mimicking the true gospel, that it would even deceive the elect of God, if that were possible. The "Man of Sin" is not Satan incarnate, he is not a supernatural being, he is not one man to be born sometime in the future, he is the man of transgression of the law
. When the man of sin comes, he will come by great multitudes
2nd Corinthians 11:13-15~"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
This is the way Satan comes revealing himself. And even more so in the latter times when God says He that retrains iniquity shall be taken out of the midst (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). Then will the elect see Satan come in the full power of the spirit of antichrist, and as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Then will the man of sin rule in God's place.
The end of the matter is that those who receive Satan's spiritual mark (signifying their servitude), are those who are polluting the sanctuary of God with abominations that make desolate. They are the disobedient who cause the gift and offering to cease. It is their unfaithfulness that brings the Holy Temple to desolation.
This is what the scriptures are "signifying" in telling the reader to understand. When you see this abomination, be aware that it is apostasy in the Church that will bring it to desolation. It's not a caveat against slaughtered pigs in the physical Jewish Temple, it's not a caveat against Jewish women who are with child, and it's not a caveat against Titus and the Romans.
We are to understand this prophecy in accordance with sound Biblical hermeneutics. In their zeal for holding to Church tradition, so many Christians neglect these most basic of principles in proper interpretation. Sola Scriptura is simply the interpretation of God's Word, by God's Word. It's not an interpretation based on what appears to be right in my own observations of the world, or in history. It's interpretation from comparing what is written in the Holy Bible, with what else is written in the Holy Bible. Because there is nothing new under the sun that we can't understand it in light of God's Word. The Bible is that which is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. Popular books may titillate and intrigue, but they are neither authoritative, nor divinely inspired. And Church tradition is not the deciding factor, and neither are historians, no matter how faithful they may appear to be. The Word of God is the final authority on what the abomination of Desolation is, so let the reader both hear and understand what the Spirit says to the Churches concerning it.
The signs of Church degradation will be there for faithful Christians to "see" this abomination in God's house, and know that it's desolation is nigh. But as Christ said, we must be watching.
Matthew 24:42-44~"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
There is nothing more sacred to an honest mind than truth. It's true Christ will come as a thief in the night, but "not" for the faithful who are watching (1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
). If we are not (spiritually speaking) watching, then our house will be broken up and the Lord will come in judgement upon us when we think not. But if we watch and pray, we will be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will befall the house of God, and to stand undefiled and righteous before God. The signs Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 are the spiritual precursors of His return. They are not people physically starving, or predictions of physical wars, which things we have with us always, and thus could never be signs of anything but normality. The signs are of spiritual declension where the love of God grows cold and iniquity (sin or lawlessness) abounds
. Unbiblical and extrabiblical interpretations about an alleged Holt Temple in A.D. 70 have no validation in scripture. It's validated by secular historians "as if" that is a legitimate replacement for authority of scripture. But we cannot let indolence, tradition and bias cloud our love of the truth. The opinions, interpretations and suppositions of men cannot be allowed to conceal the truth of scripture concerning things that were, are, and will be. Eschatology is simply the revelation of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ of the last things. It entails Christ's promises, death, resurrection, our assurance and endurance, our hope, and His coming again. And thus it should never be looked upon as a non-essential. Consequently, the abomination of desolation is not an unimportant side note, it is the declaration of Christ, which He obviously wants us to read and understand. The Abomination of Desolation is the beginning of the end, and God does not give warning just to take up space in the Bible. For judgement must begin at the house of God. Are we really watching and ready? Will we be able to recognize abomination standing in the holy place, or will we chalk it up to a few weeds in the field? Do we really understand, or are we deceived into thinking Christ spoke of the relatively insignificant happenings in A.D. 70? Those are the questions that we need to be prepared to answer, and answer honestly and authoritatively.