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Author Topic: Gleanings in Matthew 24  (Read 1311 times)

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Offline RB

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Gleanings in Matthew 24
« on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 09:14:35 »
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http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gog-magog/msg1055063624/?topicseen#msg1055063624
I'm starting a new thread using reply # 180 that I posted early to separate it from God and Magog thread since it really is a separate topic.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 09:28:28 by RB »

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Gleanings in Matthew 24
« on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 09:14:35 »

Offline RB

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 15:38:46 »
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In response to RB's post:
I will answer in the morning in this thread. From:
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http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gog-magog/msg1055063624/?topicseen#msg1055063624
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 15:46:07 by RB »

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 15:38:46 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 15:44:23 »
I'll be looking forward to reading it. I usually enjoy reading your insights & thoughts.

Offline RB

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 05:19:36 »
dpr said:
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1. Yes, given in 3 main parts, Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, because all 3 of those Bible chapters directly parallel each other. So naturally that can mean they each contain some different things between them also. Don't strain at a gnat to find fault. Keep it simple.
Fair enough.
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2. You said nothing about its link to Revelation that I also mentioned.
My post was already too long, so I thought it would not be good to do so. I was focusing on the subject of "not one stone left upon another", not on the Revelation. But I will say this, for now,......Your interpretation of Revelation is much like the Premillennialist in only you different with them concerning the church being removed, but most all other of doctrines concerning Revelation you and they are in agreement concerning, you both apply much in a literal sense, instead of allowing God to give its interpretation to us with clear scriptures from both the OT and especially so from the Lord's teaching and his apostles. You and the Premillennialist believe that Revelation from chapter four to eighteen takes place within a literal seven year period at the end of the church age with some minor differences~wereas other believers as myself, believe that Revelation from chapter one until Revelation 20:9 covers the period from the death of Jesus Christ, until he comes again at the last day. Chapter four until 20:9 give us a birds eye view from the death of Jesus Christ until his second coming at different angles with each adding something the other did not give. Of course, there is the Preterist and the Historic camp that depends heavily on extra-biblical help to give their own slant on Revelation, that I will not deal with now since it is not part of this discussion. This is brief, but enough for now.
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3. You are adding falseness to what our Lord Jesus said with quoting from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation". It is ignorance to assume someone quoting a source means you don't have to read it to know the subject. You do have to have read it, or go and read it if you haven't yet. It's as simple as that.
You obviously did not read what I said carefully~here is what I said:
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So, what our Lord is saying is this: "he that readeth Daniel, or has read Daniel, then let him understand DANIEL by what I'm saying NOW!" Now, I have heard some men twist that and say that you must understand Daniel BEFORE you can understand what Jesus was saying, but that is so wrong. Jesus gave freely to us a commentary on Daniel's dark sayings by what he was saying at that time to three of his disciples
I highlighted in red, showing that I said that he who reads Daniel, can understand what Daniel said by what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24. Daniel spoke in dark sayings~ Jesus in Matthew 24 gives to us a commentary on Daniel's dark sayings, and dark they are without help from the NT from, Jesus, Paul, and John.
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What you've been taught to do is to deny... what the Book of Daniel shows about the "abomination of desolation" involving the placing of an idol abomination in the temple at Jerusalem, just so you can keep your traditions of men that say the falsehood that it's about destruction of the temple in 69 A.D.
No sir, I was actually taught very close to the lies that you and others hold to~it was not until I search for myself to test if what I had been taught was so, or not, and soon found that I was holding to "make believe fiction story" that men like Tim Lahaye used for that very purpose!
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that say the falsehood that it's about destruction of the temple in 69 A.D.[
Do not teach or believe that...again, you do not know how to differentiate between Amill~idealist (which I' am) and Preterists/Historicism which are closely connected, but somewhat different.
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4. Of course Jesus and Paul were speaking of the same event in Matt.24 and 2 Thess.2 about the coming Antichrist and desolation of a 'standing' Jewish temple in Jerusalem. It's for the end of this world, and Christ's Book of Revelation also covers it.
I agree, just not in the same sense as you do, which we shall see later.
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In 69 A.D., the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and when trying to seize control of the temple it burned down.
Okay, I was NOT there, so I assume that's correct based upon history.
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They were not able to go inside the temple and spiritually desolate it with the placing of an idol abomination and commanding the Jews to worship it,
Neither you or I know that to be true, so the point that we can support bible doctrine WITH THAT! Anyone who does so, are basing their doctrine on assumption, and as I said yesterday:
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Assumption is the mother of errors. Secular History may be true, but it also may not be. For "History is written by the victors," and we should never assume that what is written is the truth just because it finds its way into renowned books.
You added:
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which is what the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about.
Wrong, seriously wrong! Your doctrine is based upon pure assumption.

By definition, the Abomination of Desolation is something abhorrent to God that will bring to ruin or devastation. And when we search the Bible diligently, comparing scripture with scripture (the correct form in Biblical hermeneutics), we find that in almost all instances it is dealing in some way with God's people falling away or forsaking Him, to serve the gods of the heathen nations. In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the Lord's people in turning away from Him to serve false gods. It is in the context of Matthew 24 that we find that the disgusting (abominable) thing that God hates is His people going after false gods. It is this abomination that will leave them in ruin (desolate). The scripture is replete with examples of this abomination.

You have it backward, it is NOT what is abominable to Jews, but what is abominable to God that he sees in the temple of God. Let it be known that the ONLY temple that God considered a temple AFTER the death of his Son can only be one or two things: The outwardly professing NT churches, or the body of saints, either or, and no other! Jesus would NEVER refer to the old Temple in Jerusalem by that sacred word holy some forty years AFTER HIS DEATH, the very thought of that is blasphemy! So he must had been speaking of another temple where abominations could be clearly seen that he would make desolate as God did to Israel of old.

By the preponderance of evidence in scripture, the setting up of the abomination of desolation will be the beginning of the end. This event, which will cause God's elect to flee from the adulterous Church, precedes the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. The reason that the Church is brought to desolation is because of its unfaithfulness. (2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5) The growing apostasy in the Church caused the house of God to be divided (Mark 3:25) and overcome by those with the spirit of antichrist. God expressly told us of these things before. 
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1st Timothy 4:1-2~"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"
When the people of the Churches take heed to seducing spirits of antichrist (1st John 4:3), and depart from obedience in the doctrines of God, they become the man of lawlessness. And this is the establishment of the man of sin ruling in the Holy Temple of God. The pastors are no longer teaching faithfully, He causes the Church to commit spiritual fornication in going after false doctrines. This is what will ultimately bring the house to desolation.
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Luke 11:17~"But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth".
You cannot have a house where the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of antichrist dwell in peace. Because it is a house divided, and it must fall. The Church is to be the light of the world, and if that light were darkness, then the lawful man of God must flee from it. And this is how the unfaithful Church will fall. The lawless man, moved by the spirit of antichrist, comes professing the name of Christ. But his actions gives him away as he spiritually silences the true witnesses (Revelation 11:7~Jews and Gentiles...Romans 11!) in the Churches so that they are spiritually as dead. The wolves in sheep's clothing will have deceived so greatly that the true doctrines and testimonies are silenced there. The people there will hate the faithful witness, because their faithfulness to the doctrines of Christ is like torment to the unfaithful church. By rebuking and exhorting the Church to keep the laws of God faithfully, they offend many because those under deception don't want to hear of obedience to God's laws. They want to be ruled in accordance with the imaginations of their own heart, "as if" they were their own gods. They don't want God's word alone to be the authority, and so they silence the believer's testimony. This is spiritually speaking, killing them that they cannot work for Christ.
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Revelation 11:7-8~"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
The testimony of the witnesses (Acts 1:8) who received power of God is not finished until the time of the end, when all Israel has been sealed and Christ will return. When the faithful witnesses of the Church have finished their task of witnessing to the world, those led of that spirit, Satan, will silence them in the Church. The city where our Lord was crucified was Jerusalem, which again illustrates this is speaking about the Church. But note here that this city had become "Spiritually" as Sodom and Egypt. Again, a clear illustration that it was in apostasy.

Jesus placed an extraordinary emphasis on the prophecy of the abomination, instructing that those who read should also "understand." This alerts us that Matthew 24 must be looked at carefully, in the light of other testimonies and the prophecy of Daniel. This is the only way that we will understand what God (not man) means by it. This is the same type language promoting understanding as can be read in Revelation chapter 13. There God says, "Let he who hath wisdom and understanding, count the number of the beast." Again, God is alerting us that this is not an easy prophecy to understand, so we have to understand this with the wisdom and understanding given of Christ. Certainly, our finite minds are not able to interpret the infinite mind of God, thus scripture must interpret scripture. Let those who have the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:14-16) through the Spirit of Christ, understand. By allowing the Word of God to define and explain itself, we have the understanding God exhorts us to. Popular authors, political interpretations, or carnal and worldly ideas about the nation of Israel cannot be allowed to mislead us. Even if those interpretations "appear" right, appearances are deceiving (Mark 13:22; 2nd Corinthians 10:7; Revelation 13:11). Our understanding will come from the authority of scripture in the wisdom of the mind of Christ, as His Spirit witnesses with ours (Romans 8:16). We cannot do or follow whatever "seems" right in our own eyes. We follow and are in obedience to, the authority of the word of God.

It is truly amazing that so critical an expression as, "abomination of desolation," has been so misinterpreted. These are words that have been used repeatedly and extensively in scripture. Abomination is almost exclusively used in scripture to signify "God's people" going after the false gods of the unbelievers. Likewise, Desolation is an unambiguous word. It illustrates their ruin. So why have these obvious truths been so neglected and ignored in many theological circles in favor of a political or physical understanding of the phrase? Could it be that the Biblically validated conclusion contradicts much of Judaic and Premillennial Church tradition? Nevertheless, the fact is, the Holy Temple after the cross is Christ, those in Christ, and the assembly of those saints (Church). Clearly, the stones of the Holy Temple were not in the building destroyed in A.D. 70. For in A.D. 70, the holy Temple, the Holy Place, the Jerusalem of God, was the Church.
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Luke 20:16-17~"He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?"
Head stone for a rebuilding of the Holy Temple, not the pile of bricks destroyed in A.D. 70. The New Testament Holy Temple could not have been that building, nor have God call it a Holy Place where abomination would make it desolate at that time. It already was left desolate in God's eyes by the death of Christ. If we read and understand as Christ instructs, then we must come to the knowledge that earthly Jerusalem was left desolate of God at the cross, not years later in A.D. 70. That is to say, according to the Biblical narrative. The judgment of God (blindness in part) had already occurred, and there is not a single word in scripture about a second judgment in A.D. 70. Yes, there are a few scriptures "privately interpreted" to mean that, but once examined in the light of the whole Bible, they don't hold up under the light. Christ spoke not of a temple (which wasn't of God or Holy) made of physical stones, He spoke of abomination in a Holy place. He spoke of something far more important than a pile of physical bricks falling in the middle east. He spoke of those who were spiritually bricks, and how many would be deceived and be brought to desolation. The countless examples of such judgements of God for such abominations are illustrated vividly in Old Testament Israel.

When the saints flee to the mountains, we must interpret that by authority of scripture as God intended, not by secular records or by biased historians like Josephus. At this time of trial, the careless will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Because they are deceived and are unaware that the Holy Temple is being defiled. Satan has deceived them so that they are spiritually "marked" as being part of the Beast, his kingdom who bow down to serve his likeness or image.
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Daniel 11:31-33~"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."
Here we see the characteristics of this time of the abomination of desolation. Many that are disobedient to break God's covenant are being deceived by flatteries. They pollute and profane the sanctuary, unconcerned with doctrine. In other words, by the pastors and teachers giving praise for their unlawfulness, representing them favorably when they transgress, that is the Church being corrupted by flatteries. Pastors telling them things that they want to hear, instead of the truth.
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Isaiah 30:9-11~"That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
They are in essence calling for sacrifice and offering to cease. They don't want to hear the man of law, they want to hear the man of sin or lawlessness. And the pastors give them what they want, as this is the flattery of abominations to God. i.e., the Church wants to hear that they can be saved by free will, that divorce is not a sin to God, that abortion can be justified. They want to hear that our own faith "in" Christ saves us, that children are not really a blessing, that women can rule as pastors in the Church, that an earthly kingdom of Christ is coming, that the salvation of Israel was postponed, etc., etc. The rulers flatter the Church by telling them that all these abominations are not unlawful to God, they are simply non-essential doctrines. They prophesy smooth things, signs of salvation that are lies rather than the truth. Because that is what the unfaithful "want" to hear. In the prophesy of the Man of lawlessness in the Holy Temple of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, God warns of this spirit of antichrist that deceives in the Temple.
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2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
It is for this reason that God will judge the Church and bring it to desolation. What many Christians fail to fully understand is that Satan is the great deceiver. And if everyone could "see" this and knew his methods, then he wouldn't be the great deceiver. That's the "whole point" of God describing him as Deceiver, Liar, Seducer, Flatterer, etc. These are the deceptive ways that the spirit of antichrist comes in and fools people of the Church into thinking that the doctrines that they hold are the truth. Satan comes with a doctrine (1st Timothy 4:1) so mimicking the true gospel, that it would even deceive the elect of God, if that were possible. The "Man of Sin" is not Satan incarnate, he is not a supernatural being, he is not one man to be born sometime in the future, he is the man of transgression of the law. When the man of sin comes, he will come by great multitudes.
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2nd Corinthians 11:13-15~"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
This is the way Satan comes revealing himself. And even more so in the latter times when God says He that retrains iniquity shall be taken out of the midst (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). Then will the elect see Satan come in the full power of the spirit of antichrist, and as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Then will the man of sin rule in God's place.

The end of the matter is that those who receive Satan's spiritual mark (signifying their servitude), are those who are polluting the sanctuary of God with abominations that make desolate. They are the disobedient who cause the gift and offering to cease. It is their unfaithfulness that brings the Holy Temple to desolation. This is what the scriptures are "signifying" in telling the reader to understand. When you see this abomination, be aware that it is apostasy in the Church that will bring it to desolation. It's not a caveat against slaughtered pigs in the physical Jewish Temple, it's not a caveat against Jewish women who are with child, and it's not a caveat against Titus and the Romans. We are to understand this prophecy in accordance with sound Biblical hermeneutics. In their zeal for holding to Church tradition, so many Christians neglect these most basic of principles in proper interpretation. Sola Scriptura is simply the interpretation of God's Word, by God's Word. It's not an interpretation based on what appears to be right in my own observations of the world, or in history. It's interpretation from comparing what is written in the Holy Bible, with what else is written in the Holy Bible. Because there is nothing new under the sun that we can't understand it in light of God's Word. The Bible is that which is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. Popular books may titillate and intrigue, but they are neither authoritative, nor divinely inspired. And Church tradition is not the deciding factor, and neither are historians, no matter how faithful they may appear to be. The Word of God is the final authority on what the abomination of Desolation is, so let the reader both hear and understand what the Spirit says to the Churches concerning it.

The signs of Church degradation will be there for faithful Christians to "see" this abomination in God's house, and know that it's desolation is nigh. But as Christ said, we must be watching.
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Matthew 24:42-44~"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
There is nothing more sacred to an honest mind than truth. It's true Christ will come as a thief in the night, but "not" for the faithful who are watching (1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 ). If we are not (spiritually speaking) watching, then our house will be broken up and the Lord will come in judgement upon us when we think not. But if we watch and pray, we will be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will befall the house of God, and to stand undefiled and righteous before God. The signs Christ spoke of in Matthew 24 are the spiritual precursors of His return. They are not people physically starving, or predictions of physical wars, which things we have with us always, and thus could never be signs of anything but normality. The signs are of spiritual declension where the love of God grows cold and iniquity (sin or lawlessness) abounds. Unbiblical and extrabiblical interpretations about an alleged Holt Temple in A.D. 70 have no validation in scripture. It's validated by secular historians "as if" that is a legitimate replacement for authority of scripture. But we cannot let indolence, tradition and bias cloud our love of the truth. The opinions, interpretations and suppositions of men cannot be allowed to conceal the truth of scripture concerning things that were, are, and will be. Eschatology is simply the revelation of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ of the last things. It entails Christ's promises, death, resurrection, our assurance and endurance, our hope, and His coming again. And thus it should never be looked upon as a non-essential. Consequently, the abomination of desolation is not an unimportant side note, it is the declaration of Christ, which He obviously wants us to read and understand. The Abomination of Desolation is the beginning of the end, and God does not give warning just to take up space in the Bible. For judgement must begin at the house of God. Are we really watching and ready? Will we be able to recognize abomination standing in the holy place, or will we chalk it up to a few weeds in the field? Do we really understand, or are we deceived into thinking Christ spoke of the relatively insignificant happenings in A.D. 70? Those are the questions that we need to be prepared to answer, and answer honestly and authoritatively.

Must stop...later
















« Last Edit: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 07:22:00 by RB »

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 05:19:36 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 12:13:42 »
Red, I agree with most of what you said. I especially agree with you about the corruption of doctrine misleading in the churches. One of the clearest misleadings I see now is how Matthew 24:5 has been reinterpreted.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many


They even go so far as putting "I am Christ" in quotes implying something that is not said in that verse.

When we read Jesus throughout the Gospels we find Jesus repeats himself rephrasing for emphasis

a few of examples:

"7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. "

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

This repetitive emphasis is all through the Bible & all through Jesus' speech.


Just as it is in Matthew 24:5


Jesus says "shall come in my name", Jesus is speaking in the first person "my name". If they come in Jesus' name they will be saying Jesus is the Christ.

thus Jesus repeats "saying, I am Christ" Jesus is still speaking in the first person.  "For many shall come" "saying, I am the Christ".
which means the same as "For many shall come in my name"


"and shall deceive many"



Jesus is not warning about a singular antichrist in this verse like they imply now. Jesus is warning about deceptions & deceivers among the brethren, just as you have explained.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 12:29:23 by TonkaTim »

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 12:13:42 »



Offline RB

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 07, 2017 - 15:02:13 »
If they come in Jesus' name they will be saying Jesus is the Christ............ Jesus is warning about deceptions & deceivers among the brethren, just as you have explained.
Yes, I agree 100%. If a man came saying that HE IS Christ, he would deceive almost NO ONE, but himself. This scripture in Matthew 24 is warning us of the Joel Osteen's of this world and many, many millions more, who talk about Jesus, but their Jesus is another Jesus. I have another post coming in the morning, the Lord willing.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 03:08:38 »
RB and TonkaTim  - There is a problem with how both of you are interpreting Matthew 24:5. 

If, as you both say, the many deceivers come with the message saying that Jesus is Christ, how is that a deceptive message that would deceive many?  How does it deceive anybody to convince them that Jesus is the Christ?  That's a TRUE STATEMENT.  Jesus IS Christ, the Messiah.  And that wasn't going to be the end of their message, by comparing this verse with its parallel verse in Luke 21:8.  "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and The time draweth near.  go ye not therefore after them."  These deceivers would also be announcing that THE TIME had drawn near.  This "Time" referred to a very particular season that had been announced by Malachi.

What WOULD be a deceptive statement would be for those deceivers themselves to claim that THEY were the fulfillment of the Messiah prophecy that Daniel, Moses, and the prophets foretold should come.  The "Messiah the Prince" was supposed to start His ministry at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9:25).  In John the Baptist's day, the Pharisees knew very well that the beginning of the 70th week was at hand, which is why they sent a delegation to John from Jerusalem at that time to ask about his identity in John 1:19-25.  It seems the first-century Pharisees could figure out when the 70 weeks of years had started better than anyone today can (it was 454 BC, by the way).  They also knew the Malachi 4:5 prophecy of Elias showing up before the time that the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" would come, and asked John if he was that Elias which was predicted to come.  The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" was the message that the false Christ's would be presenting when they would pretend to be the Christ and say that "THE TIME had drawn near" .

And it wasn't just the Pharisees who had calculated the time for the 70 weeks of years - ALL THE PEOPLE were in expectation of the Messiah's appearance at that time, as Luke 3:15-16 says.  "And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose...."   Andrew and Philip knew their OT prophecies as well when it came to the Messiah's first coming at the end of the 69th week.  "Philip findeth Nathaniel, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." (John 1:45).  Even the Samaritan woman knew enough of the timing for OT prophecy fulfillment to say, "I know that Messias is coming, which is called Christ: when comes he, he will tell us all things." (John 4:25 Interlinear).

So, the Jews of those first-century days were looking in eager expectation that very year for a prophet who would come in advance of Christ, heralding the Messiah's arrival, as well as Elias, who would come before "the great and dreadful day of the Lord".  Since the leadership of Jerusalem ended up hating, rejecting, and killing both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, they continued to look for a prophet and one claiming to be the Messiah in those first-century days.  And there were plenty who stepped forward as a substitute, pretending to be that fulfillment of Daniel 9:25's Messiah prophecy - all of them anti-christs or pseudo-christs, denying that Christ had already come in the flesh.  Their claim was that THEY were the Christ, and that THE TIME for the great and dreadful day of the Lord had drawn near.  There were plenty of false prophets also, just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:11, all of them pretending to be the fulfillment of that one prophet who was supposed to be the voice preceding the Messiah, preparing the way for him, according to Isaiah 40:3. 

If you yank this Matthew 24:5 verse out of its natural, first-century setting, (when the last, 70th week of Daniel's prophecy took place from AD 30-37), you have made it generically applicable to all generations since then, with no particular significance to anyone.  That turns Jesus' predictions into a vague, amorphous, ongoing condition for all time, which was not what He intended.   Instead, this was an exact time period Christ was predicting for those He was directly speaking to.  As usual, if you look in the Interlinear version (instead of just the KJV), you will see this.  The passage reads as follows: "For many will come in my name saying, I am the Christ; (NOT saying that I, Jesus, am the Christ) and many they will mislead (since many would fall for a false, substitute fulfillment of all the OT Messiah prophecies).  But YE SHALL BE ABOUT TO HEAR of wars and rumours of wars.  See, be not disturbed..."  This time indicator - "ABOUT TO HEAR" - anchors this prediction to Jesus' immediate audience and their soon-to-come hearing about wars and rumors of wars in THEIR generation, before the "completion of the age" of the old Covenant (Matthew 24:3 Interlinear).

Offline RB

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #7 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 05:35:48 »
RB and TonkaTim  - There is a problem with how both of you are interpreting Matthew 24:5. 

If, as you both say, the many deceivers come with the message saying that Jesus is Christ, how is that a deceptive message that would deceive many?  How does it deceive anybody to convince them that Jesus is the Christ?  That's a TRUE STATEMENT.  Jesus IS Christ, the Messiah.  And that wasn't going to be the end of their message, by comparing this verse with its parallel verse in Luke 21:8.  "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and The time draweth near.  go ye not therefore after them."  These deceivers would also be announcing that THE TIME had drawn near.  This "Time" referred to a very particular season that had been announced by Malachi.
I'm not going to waste much time dealing with you and your corrupt Preterists doctrine~for at the moment I still have answers to give to dpr which I want to answer.
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If, as you both say, the many deceivers come with the message saying that Jesus is Christ,
I did not first say this, Jesus did, and I'm just repeating what he taught. It does not fit your 70 A.D. stamped fulfilled prophecy doctrine, then it is you that twist, and pervert God's word to make it say what it is not saying. While I agree that it is so, (how else can a false prophet deceive without saying many things that have truth to it?)Yet rat poison has 98% corn but enough poison to do a very effective job, so good, that it's hard to find now because it is such an inhuman way to kill rats! So I just keep cats around my barn and shop. Every false cult on this earth today teach that Jesus is the Christ, with maybe a few exceptions, maybe. They MUST say that. It starts out like those in Acts 15:
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Veses 1-5 reads: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Sir, it starts with adding to Jesus Christ's obedience and faith as the ONLY means of justification, to where we are now, with a gospel that makes salvation an easy experience, where God's power is NOT needed, with millions making a decision to have a form of godliness without going TOO FAR, (they would never tell you this but their form and doctrine speaks loud and clear for them) yet denying the power thereof! I could say so much more, but my point should be clear. Most church goers are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, the problem is not that they reject God, and his Son, but they ONLY use the name as an insurance policy from the second death. So, just compare this verse in Matthew 24 with its overall context and with the church letters written by Paul and John concerning the spirit of antichrist that was yet to come, even though the mystery of iniquity was already at work in their day in a powerful way, and has worked since the fall, but will increase greatly as this world comes to its end which is true message of warnings from Jesus to us here in Matthew 24. To reject this truth is to fight against God, not with flesh and blood. Last days apostasy in a great way is prophesied by the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ~and they do it with saying that Jesus IS the Christ, but it is a corrupt gospel that the natural man can accept and live by according to the teachings of the many false prophets that shall descend from the bottomless pit.
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Revelation 9:1-4~"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."
This is the fulfillment of Matthew 24:5-30! These false prophets could ONLY hurt those who had NOT the seal of God in their foreheads. The very elect cannot be deceived, all others are easy bait for these false prophets. If you have GREEN then you have LIFE abiding within you, these along escape the spirit of false prophets that are here in the millions, along with their followers.
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What WOULD be a deceptive statement would be for those deceivers themselves to claim that THEY were the fulfillment of the Messiah prophecy that Daniel, Moses, and the prophets foretold should come.  The "Messiah the Prince" was supposed to start His ministry at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9:25).  In John the Baptist's day, the Pharisees knew very well that the beginning of the 70th week was at hand, which is why they sent a delegation to John from Jerusalem at that time to ask about his identity in John 1:19-25.  It seems the first-century Pharisees could figure out when the 70 weeks of years had started better than anyone today can (it was 454 BC, by the way).
No problem, I agree they did and others as well, Yet, they miss the SPIRITUAL applications of their OT scriptures, just as you and many others do today.
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They also knew the Malachi 4:5 prophecy of Elias showing up before the time that the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" would come, and asked John if he was that Elias which was predicted to come.  The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" was the message that the false Christ's would be presenting when they would pretend to be the Christ and say that "THE TIME had drawn near" .
They did, but again they miss the spiritual application of those scriptures, did they not? John the Baptist fulfilled Elisa's coming.
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If you yank this Matthew 24:5 verse out of its natural, first-century setting, (when the last, 70th week of Daniel's prophecy took place from AD 30-37), you have made it generically applicable to all generations since then, with no particular significance to anyone.  That turns Jesus' predictions into a vague, amorphous, ongoing condition for all time, which was not what He intended.   Instead, this was an exact time period Christ was predicting for those He was directly speaking to.  As usual, if you look in the Interlinear version (instead of just the KJV), you will see this.  The passage reads as follows: "For many will come in my name saying, I am the Christ; (NOT saying that I, Jesus, am the Christ) and many they will mislead (since many would fall for a false, substitute fulfillment of all the OT Messiah prophecies).  But YE SHALL BE ABOUT TO HEAR of wars and rumours of wars.  See, be not disturbed..."  This time indicator - "ABOUT TO HEAR" - anchors this prediction to Jesus' immediate audience and their soon-to-come hearing about wars and rumors of wars in THEIR generation, before the "completion of the age" of the old Covenant (Matthew 24:3 Interlinear).
I have an appointment shortly, so I'm rushing myself, but I said enough and will only add this: Not yanking anything out of its context, but leaving it IN ITS CONTEXT, and in its place among the flow of all scriptures in order to understand the truth. Your use of Interlinear is a corruption of the scripture under consideration and makes it say something that Jesus IS NOT saying, again based on the rest of the discourse before us.
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As usual, if you look in the Interlinear version (instead of just the KJV), you will see this
I LOOK TO GOD, not to the many corrupt versions that would eventually give one some support for his position.  Truth comes through the written word of God that has been preserved for us by God in our own language. The problem is not with the KJV, but with man reading and submitting to the scriptures~even though I agree that many have problem with the KJV for it does not support their teachings, so they desperately look to see how they can find something to lend them support for their errors, instead of seeking God's face for HIS TRUTH.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 10:21:17 by RB »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #8 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 11:24:43 »
3Res, I'll give you the quick & short answer. So they will worship that which is not God.



Why? Because he is a liar & a murderer from the beginning.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 14:15:55 »
RB  -  Not meaning to crowd your discussion with dpr, but here is a reference that I think might address the way you are wanting to interpret Matthew 24:5.

You still maintain that the verse says that deceivers would come on the scene, saying that Jesus is the Christ, and would deceive many with that message.  You may want to compare that view with I Cor. 12:3.  "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that NO MAN CAN SAY THAT JESUS IS THE LORD, BUT BY THE HOLY GHOST."  (Pardon the caps - for some reason, my new hard drive won't let me use any of the posting features yet.  Probably I'm missing installing a program or two yet.)

Peter had once confessed, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" because it had been revealed to him by the Father (Matt. 16:16-17).  In the  same way, the I Cor. 12:3 verse of Paul's says that if any man, either Jew or Gentile, came saying that Jesus was the Lord , then he was saying that message by the influence of the Holy Ghost.  So, if you want to interpret the Matthew 24:5 verse the way you are, then the speaker would not qualify as being a deceiver, if that really was what they were saying.  This means your interpretation of this verse would be off course.  It would have to mean instead that the deceiver came on the scene CLAIMING TO BE CHRIST THE MESSIAH.  This did happen in the days of the epistles being written, when many "anti-christs" abounded in "the last HOUR" (I John 2:18).   

As far as I can tell from reading your comments, RB, I have never seen you address that simple, simple verse of Peter's which announced that the end had drawn near in his days (I Peter 4:7).  "BUT THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."  Even the anti-christs (plural) of I John 2:18 (and of Matt. 24:5 / Luke 21:8) were at the very least on target with that part of their message - that "the end had drawn near" in their days.

What "END OF ALL THINGS" do you think he was talking about?  From what I see from every vantage point in the NT, it was an end of all the Old Covenant elements which were "ready to vanish away" in Heb. 8:13, leaving the New Covenant kingdom to stand alone since then.  That "END" also included literal, physical elements like the temple itself vanishing, the priesthood, the genealogies of the tribes, the Jews' imagined ethnic superiority to Gentile nations - even the people themselves as a nation.  Judaism had made an idol of all those things, and like Moses' serpent of brass, these things needed to be physically destroyed since the people were putting such trust in those material things instead of looking to the revealed Christ as the physical AND spiritual antitype fulfillment of all those things.

It may be just my impression, but from the entire tenor of your posts, RB, there is a rather defeatist attitude that pervades what you write about the progress of God's kingdom on earth.  You may not intend this, but it is what comes through in print.  God is not such a pessimist.  He has a triumphant, progressive advancement planned for kingdom growth that has steadily and incrementally increased since the New Covenant was launched at the cross.  This growth will continue until the end of human history. 

The stone cut out without hands has already struck and destroyed Daniel's statue representing all the physical kingdoms of the historical world (national boundaries are meaningless when it comes to Christ's kingdom) and that rock has been growing ever since then, without pause.  The leaven is swelling the bread dough again in its second rising, after the punch-down of the dough in the AD 70 period.  In this second rising, the tiny air pockets are being more finely distributed than with its first rising.  It will permeate every portion of the dough before "baking time" at the end of human history.  The growth of the mustard seed is continuing to expand, just as Christ promised.  To say otherwise is to deny Isaiah 9:7.  "...Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end..."

As to my use of what you refer to as the "corrupt" Interlinear and its inclusion of the Greek - the KJV translators themselves made use of the original languages to the best of their ability.  It is certainly not a sin for anyone to grow in knowledge about any language other than the one they were taught as a child.  I hope you won't take offense at this, but it seems a type of reverse snobbery to elevate ignorance over acquiring a new skill.  I measure no man by their level of knowledge, but neither do I condemn those who wish to grow in it, with the purpose of understanding and rejoicing in God's word more fully. 

This INCLUDES a study of history.  If history was not important, we would not have Luke 3:1-2 giving such meticulous records of those rulers in power at the time Christ was to launch His ministry.  "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberias Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea, and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.....As it is written in the book of Esaias the prophet (Is. 40:3-4), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."

Luke is holding up this lengthy record of historical personages, challenging us to check into all these historical details and see that Christ's coming at that precise time matched and met the fulfillment requirements on the calendar for the "Messiah the Prince" of Daniel 9's 70-week prophecy.  When Christ and John the Baptist showed up fulfilling these exact calendar dates with their activities - it proves beyond doubt that God knows the end from the beginning - and has sovereign power to bring events to pass at their predicted times.  I don't know about anyone else, but seeing a track record of fulfilled prophecy throughout the entire NT, (including Revelation), which came to pass at their precise predicted times -  all this makes my soul soar with praise for my all-powerful Father.

Offline notreligus

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 14:24:23 »
I believe that the fact that the Jews fell for Simon bar Kokhba is a fulfillment (not the last fulfillment) of Jesus' prophecy.  Anyone who claims to be Christ is claiming to be the Messiah.   The Jews rejected Jesus but they followed Simon bar Kokhba as the political Messiah they wanted, and as a result another 500,000 plus Jews were killed by the Romans during the Second Jewish Revolt.

In Matthew 24 Jesus had warned them that other false Messiahs were going to follow behind Him and mislead them.   They are still seeking another Messiah.   They still believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel and not Messiah Jesus.

(Please excuse me RB if I've taken a bit of a detour but I think it applies.)   

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #11 on: Wed Mar 08, 2017 - 15:38:42 »
I believe that the fact that the Jews fell for Simon bar Kokhba is a fulfillment (not the last fulfillment) of Jesus' prophecy.  Anyone who claims to be Christ is claiming to be the Messiah.   The Jews rejected Jesus but they followed Simon bar Kokhba as the political Messiah they wanted, and as a result another 500,000 plus Jews were killed by the Romans during the Second Jewish Revolt.

In Matthew 24 Jesus had warned them that other false Messiahs were going to follow behind Him and mislead them.   They are still seeking another Messiah.   They still believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel and not Messiah Jesus.

(Please excuse me RB if I've taken a bit of a detour but I think it applies.)

notreligus,
That is one of several examples of the fulfillment of John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive

Offline Fisherking

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 18, 2017 - 13:14:16 »
If they come in Jesus' name they will be saying Jesus is the Christ............ Jesus is warning about deceptions & deceivers among the brethren, just as you have explained.
Yes, I agree 100%. If a man came saying that HE IS Christ, he would deceive almost NO ONE, but himself. This scripture in Matthew 24 is warning us of the Joel Osteen's of this world and many, many millions more, who talk about Jesus, but their Jesus is another Jesus. I have another post coming in the morning, the Lord willing.

I have done an Exegesis of Matthew 24 and I must say that the Joel Osteen example is somewhat off target in your example, not wrong per se, just timed wrong. We have three different periods where Jesus warns about false chirsts. And each has a specific meaning.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus isn't repeating himself here, he is speaking about three very different events.

In verse 5, this is Jesus warning the disciples not to Return to Jerusalem when they hear of Wars and rumors of Wars. He knows they understand that Jesus will return to Mt. Zion, and he knows the Pharisees and Scribes will be looking for a Messiah  to save them, because they have read Daniel 7 like us, they understood that Rome is/was the Fourth Beast and thus they are looking for a Little Horn KING to come forth and a Messiah (Zechariah 14) to come forth and save them. They had no clue this Little Horn would arise 2000 years later nor that they had rejected the true Messiah Jesus. Thus they put forth Messiah's (Christ means Messiah) trying to FORCE it to come to pass and thus Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled....John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (This has nothing to do with Israel receiving the Anti-Christ as many seem to think.)

Jesus is warning the disciples, do not come back to Jerusalem thinking I have come again, for I have told you here this day....When you see Jerusalem and the Temple destroyed....THE END IS NOT YET....6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Then Jesus goes into a post 70 AD lecture, telling the disciples about what will happen after Jerusalem and the Temple is destroyed, all the way up to the Rapture. This is where verse 11 comes in, and you are exactly right, imho, Joel Osteen amongst others, and people like Jim Jones and Jonestown etc. etc. etc. This is a 2000 year panoramic view between 70 AD and the Rapture of the Church. This is the time period (after AD 70) Where most of he Disciples became Martyrs, And the Gospel was preached unto all the World, then Jesus says the end will come. So Matthew 24:7-13 is a specific period also.

Mathew 24:14-26 is the Abomination of Desolation/Israel Flees/Times of Trouble period or the Tribulation period. So in verse 24 that is the real False Prophet and Anti-Christ, NOTICE: These preform Miracles and Great Wonders but those in verses 5 and 11 only deceived. But Jesus clearly warns Israel not to go unto them, but why? Remember, at this time Israel is in the Wilderness where God is protecting them for 1260 days or 42 Months (Anti-Christs reign of terror) so the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are trying to tick them out of their protected zone, probably in Petra, by preforming Miracles and Great Wonders professing to be Christ and God come in the Flesh. But Jesus warns them, do not go unto the Desert or unto the Secret Chambers [THAT WILL NOT BE ME]................For I will come in the (Matt 24:27) Eastern Skies for all to see. Jesus said even the elect would be deceived, BUT I have told you before what is going to happen [so they can't be deceived].








Offline notreligus

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 18, 2017 - 13:44:29 »
If they come in Jesus' name they will be saying Jesus is the Christ............ Jesus is warning about deceptions & deceivers among the brethren, just as you have explained.
Yes, I agree 100%. If a man came saying that HE IS Christ, he would deceive almost NO ONE, but himself. This scripture in Matthew 24 is warning us of the Joel Osteen's of this world and many, many millions more, who talk about Jesus, but their Jesus is another Jesus. I have another post coming in the morning, the Lord willing.

I have done an Exegesis of Matthew 24 and I must say that the Joel Osteen example is somewhat off target in your example, not wrong per se, just timed wrong. We have three different periods where Jesus warns about false chirsts. And each has a specific meaning.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus isn't repeating himself here, he is speaking about three very different events.

In verse 5, this is Jesus warning the disciples not to Return to Jerusalem when they hear of Wars and rumors of Wars. He knows they understand that Jesus will return to Mt. Zion, and he knows the Pharisees and Scribes will be looking for a Messiah  to save them, because they have read Daniel 7 like us, they understood that Rome is/was the Fourth Beast and thus they are looking for a Little Horn KING to come forth and a Messiah (Zechariah 14) to come forth and save them. They had no clue this Little Horn would arise 2000 years later nor that they had rejected the true Messiah Jesus. Thus they put forth Messiah's (Christ means Messiah) trying to FORCE it to come to pass and thus Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled....John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (This has nothing to do with Israel receiving the Anti-Christ as many seem to think.)

Jesus is warning the disciples, do not come back to Jerusalem thinking I have come again, for I have told you here this day....When you see Jerusalem and the Temple destroyed....THE END IS NOT YET....6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Then Jesus goes into a post 70 AD lecture, telling the disciples about what will happen after Jerusalem and the Temple is destroyed, all the way up to the Rapture. This is where verse 11 comes in, and you are exactly right, imho, Joel Osteen amongst others, and people like Jim Jones and Jonestown etc. etc. etc. This is a 2000 year panoramic view between 70 AD and the Rapture of the Church. This is the time period (after AD 70) Where most of he Disciples became Martyrs, And the Gospel was preached unto all the World, then Jesus says the end will come. So Matthew 24:7-13 is a specific period also.

Mathew 24:14-26 is the Abomination of Desolation/Israel Flees/Times of Trouble period or the Tribulation period. So in verse 24 that is the real False Prophet and Anti-Christ, NOTICE: These preform Miracles and Great Wonders but those in verses 5 and 11 only deceived. But Jesus clearly warns Israel not to go unto them, but why? Remember, at this time Israel is in the Wilderness where God is protecting them for 1260 days or 42 Months (Anti-Christs reign of terror) so the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are trying to tick them out of their protected zone, probably in Petra, by preforming Miracles and Great Wonders professing to be Christ and God come in the Flesh. But Jesus warns them, do not go unto the Desert or unto the Secret Chambers [THAT WILL NOT BE ME]................For I will come in the (Matt 24:27) Eastern Skies for all to see. Jesus said even the elect would be deceived, BUT I have told you before what is going to happen [so they can't be deceived].

I used to believe all of the very things you've outlined here.  But, after being blinded by Dispensationalism for over forty years, I came to understand that the redemption of mankind is the main theme of the Bible with Jesus Christ as the central figure.   To believe as you do, I had to allow the finished work of Christ for all of mankind to be abolished to cater to a nation called Israel.   Isn't this more important than one's eschatology that contains a bunch of guesswork anyway?    Without Christ's reconciliation of all of mankind no one will be saved, not even the Jews.    A remnant of Jews have already believed in Him and more keep coming to Him without God having two separate salvation programs as invented by the Dispensationals. 

Offline Fisherking

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 18, 2017 - 14:13:23 »
If they come in Jesus' name they will be saying Jesus is the Christ............ Jesus is warning about deceptions & deceivers among the brethren, just as you have explained.
Yes, I agree 100%. If a man came saying that HE IS Christ, he would deceive almost NO ONE, but himself. This scripture in Matthew 24 is warning us of the Joel Osteen's of this world and many, many millions more, who talk about Jesus, but their Jesus is another Jesus. I have another post coming in the morning, the Lord willing.

I have done an Exegesis of Matthew 24 and I must say that the Joel Osteen example is somewhat off target in your example, not wrong per se, just timed wrong. We have three different periods where Jesus warns about false chirsts. And each has a specific meaning.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus isn't repeating himself here, he is speaking about three very different events.

In verse 5, this is Jesus warning the disciples not to Return to Jerusalem when they hear of Wars and rumors of Wars. He knows they understand that Jesus will return to Mt. Zion, and he knows the Pharisees and Scribes will be looking for a Messiah  to save them, because they have read Daniel 7 like us, they understood that Rome is/was the Fourth Beast and thus they are looking for a Little Horn KING to come forth and a Messiah (Zechariah 14) to come forth and save them. They had no clue this Little Horn would arise 2000 years later nor that they had rejected the true Messiah Jesus. Thus they put forth Messiah's (Christ means Messiah) trying to FORCE it to come to pass and thus Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled....John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (This has nothing to do with Israel receiving the Anti-Christ as many seem to think.)

Jesus is warning the disciples, do not come back to Jerusalem thinking I have come again, for I have told you here this day....When you see Jerusalem and the Temple destroyed....THE END IS NOT YET....6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Then Jesus goes into a post 70 AD lecture, telling the disciples about what will happen after Jerusalem and the Temple is destroyed, all the way up to the Rapture. This is where verse 11 comes in, and you are exactly right, imho, Joel Osteen amongst others, and people like Jim Jones and Jonestown etc. etc. etc. This is a 2000 year panoramic view between 70 AD and the Rapture of the Church. This is the time period (after AD 70) Where most of he Disciples became Martyrs, And the Gospel was preached unto all the World, then Jesus says the end will come. So Matthew 24:7-13 is a specific period also.

Mathew 24:14-26 is the Abomination of Desolation/Israel Flees/Times of Trouble period or the Tribulation period. So in verse 24 that is the real False Prophet and Anti-Christ, NOTICE: These preform Miracles and Great Wonders but those in verses 5 and 11 only deceived. But Jesus clearly warns Israel not to go unto them, but why? Remember, at this time Israel is in the Wilderness where God is protecting them for 1260 days or 42 Months (Anti-Christs reign of terror) so the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are trying to tick them out of their protected zone, probably in Petra, by preforming Miracles and Great Wonders professing to be Christ and God come in the Flesh. But Jesus warns them, do not go unto the Desert or unto the Secret Chambers [THAT WILL NOT BE ME]................For I will come in the (Matt 24:27) Eastern Skies for all to see. Jesus said even the elect would be deceived, BUT I have told you before what is going to happen [so they can't be deceived].

I used to believe all of the very things you've outlined here.  But, after being blinded by Dispensationalism for over forty years, I came to understand that the redemption of mankind is the main theme of the Bible with Jesus Christ as the central figure.   To believe as you do, I had to allow the finished work of Christ for all of mankind to be abolished to cater to a nation called Israel.   Isn't this more important than one's eschatology that contains a bunch of guesswork anyway?    Without Christ's reconciliation of all of mankind no one will be saved, not even the Jews.    A remnant of Jews have already believed in Him and more keep coming to Him without God having two separate salvation programs as invented by the Dispensationals.

God rejected Israel for a time. The Bible tells us that Israel IN PART has been blinded until the time of the Gentiles come in. This means there are Messianic Jews (In Part) but for the most part, the Jewish peoples will be blinded until after the Rapture and thus all Israel will be saved just before the Abomination of Desolation happens when the Two-Witnesses turn Israel back to God (Malachi 4:5-6). Not all Jews comes to Christ, but Israel as a nation accepts Christ as their Messiah.

It is what it is, God has chosen to deal with Israel during the 70th Week.  I don't want to get to far off subject here.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #15 on: Fri May 19, 2017 - 12:59:25 »
Fisherking  -  There's a problem with the way you are interpreting the phrase "but the end is NOT YET" in Matthew 24:6.  You are throwing "the end" far off into the distant future from when the "wars and rumors of war" were to be heard.  Not so.  Matthew 24 does not describe a 2,000-year panoramic view from AD 70 until a future rapture of the church.

You need to compare this Matthew 24:6 verse with its companion verse as it is written in Luke 21:9 (KJV).  "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; BUT THE END IS NOT BY AND BY."  Do you realize what "by and by" means?  It means "IMMEDIATELY".  Our understanding of this phrase is twisted by that old song, "We Will Understand It Better By and By";  as the chorus goes, "By and by, when the morning comes, when the saints of God are gathered home..."  The typical interpretation of "by and by" is INCORRECTLY understood to mean "eventually - sometime in the distant future".  We need to compare "by and by" with other places it appears in scripture that show it as meaning "immediately": verses such as Luke 17:7, Matthew 13:21, and Mark 6:25 (KJV on all these).

What Christ meant by His statement in Luke 21:9 / Matthew 24:6 was that wars and rumors of war / commotions would occur first, but the end would not IMMEDIATELY follow those wars, commotions, etc.  Christ then proceeded to give a list of what calamities WOULD occur in the disciples' generation between the time of wars, etc., and the time when the end took place.

To define just when that "END" took place, remember, we have Peter's crystal-clear statement in I Peter 4:7 (KJV), "But THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND:"  He wrote that statement around AD 65, when a "fiery trial" (I Peter 4:12,13 Interlinear) was happening to the saints during the persecution by Nero following the AD 64 fire at Rome.  This was the same time when Peter also said that he was a partaker of the glory that was ABOUT TO BE REVEALED when the "chief shepherd shall appear" (I Peter 5:1-4 Interlinear).  In the plainest sense of understanding Peter's words, this "END OF ALL THINGS" was contemporary with HIS AUDIENCE of the first century.

Something else you may want to make a note of in Matthew 24:6 (KJV) that pins down all these events to a time just prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70.  "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert, go not forth.  Behold, HE IS IN THE SECRET CHAMBERS; believe it not."  The term "secret chambers" is in reference to Jerusalem's temple structure.  Check out John Gill's comments on this in his "Exposition of the Entire Bible".  He quotes as follows: "For in the sanctuary, there were two chambers; one was called 'THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS'; and the other 'the chamber of vessels'."  (Misn. Shekalim, c.5. sect. 6).

Another writer, Lambert Dolphin, in his work "The Temple of Solomon" refers to the same original source that Gill did, and adds this: "Two chambers in the temple are named in the Mishnah.  One, the Chamber of Secrets, was where the devout placed their gifts in secret.  The poor received support from these gifts also in secret.  The Chamber of Utensils was also a room for storing gifts from which distribution was made every thirty days."

Christ's reference to this "Secret Chamber" (tameion) of the temple then in existence means that His prophetic words regarding the emergence of pseudo-christs and pseudo-prophets in Matthew 24:24-26 would come to pass while that "Secret Chamber" of Jerusalem's temple was still in existence.  This actually did come to pass in the AD 70 era, when both John and Eleazar, two competing leaders of Zealot factions, both invaded the inner temple and helped themselves to the wealth of resources it contained in order to supply their own armies. 

These men are only two examples of many pseudo-christs who tried to claim messianic status over their own people in those days.  Another was the Galilean Zealot called Menahem, who also got into the temple in AD 66, dressed in royal garments stolen from Herod's armory at Masada, trying to present himself as the "King of the Jews".

Since the Jerusalem temple and its "Secret Chamber" were physically destroyed in AD 70, then Christ's prophecy about those pseudo-christs must also be a past event to us.   Long past. 


Offline Fisherking

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 19, 2017 - 15:30:29 »
Fisherking  -  There's a problem with the way you are interpreting the phrase "but the end is NOT YET" in Matthew 24:6.  You are throwing "the end" far off into the distant future from when the "wars and rumors of war" were to be heard.  Not so.  Matthew 24 does not describe a 2,000-year panoramic view from AD 70 until a future rapture of the church.

You need to compare this Matthew 24:6 verse with its companion verse as it is written in Luke 21:9 (KJV).  "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; BUT THE END IS NOT BY AND BY."  Do you realize what "by and by" means?  It means "IMMEDIATELY".  Our understanding of this phrase is twisted by that old song, "We Will Understand It Better By and By";  as the chorus goes, "By and by, when the morning comes, when the saints of God are gathered home..."  The typical interpretation of "by and by" is INCORRECTLY understood to mean "eventually - sometime in the distant future".  We need to compare "by and by" with other places it appears in scripture that show it as meaning "immediately": verses such as Luke 17:7, Matthew 13:21, and Mark 6:25 (KJV on all these).

What Christ meant by His statement in Luke 21:9 / Matthew 24:6 was that wars and rumors of war / commotions would occur first, but the end would not IMMEDIATELY follow those wars, commotions, etc.  Christ then proceeded to give a list of what calamities WOULD occur in the disciples' generation between the time of wars, etc., and the time when the end took place.

To define just when that "END" took place, remember, we have Peter's crystal-clear statement in I Peter 4:7 (KJV), "But THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND:"  He wrote that statement around AD 65, when a "fiery trial" (I Peter 4:12,13 Interlinear) was happening to the saints during the persecution by Nero following the AD 64 fire at Rome.  This was the same time when Peter also said that he was a partaker of the glory that was ABOUT TO BE REVEALED when the "chief shepherd shall appear" (I Peter 5:1-4 Interlinear).  In the plainest sense of understanding Peter's words, this "END OF ALL THINGS" was contemporary with HIS AUDIENCE of the first century.

Something else you may want to make a note of in Matthew 24:6 (KJV) that pins down all these events to a time just prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70.  "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert, go not forth.  Behold, HE IS IN THE SECRET CHAMBERS; believe it not."  The term "secret chambers" is in reference to Jerusalem's temple structure.  Check out John Gill's comments on this in his "Exposition of the Entire Bible".  He quotes as follows: "For in the sanctuary, there were two chambers; one was called 'THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS'; and the other 'the chamber of vessels'."  (Misn. Shekalim, c.5. sect. 6).

Another writer, Lambert Dolphin, in his work "The Temple of Solomon" refers to the same original source that Gill did, and adds this: "Two chambers in the temple are named in the Mishnah.  One, the Chamber of Secrets, was where the devout placed their gifts in secret.  The poor received support from these gifts also in secret.  The Chamber of Utensils was also a room for storing gifts from which distribution was made every thirty days."

Christ's reference to this "Secret Chamber" (tameion) of the temple then in existence means that His prophetic words regarding the emergence of pseudo-christs and pseudo-prophets in Matthew 24:24-26 would come to pass while that "Secret Chamber" of Jerusalem's temple was still in existence.  This actually did come to pass in the AD 70 era, when both John and Eleazar, two competing leaders of Zealot factions, both invaded the inner temple and helped themselves to the wealth of resources it contained in order to supply their own armies. 

These men are only two examples of many pseudo-christs who tried to claim messianic status over their own people in those days.  Another was the Galilean Zealot called Menahem, who also got into the temple in AD 66, dressed in royal garments stolen from Herod's armory at Masada, trying to present himself as the "King of the Jews".

Since the Jerusalem temple and its "Secret Chamber" were physically destroyed in AD 70, then Christ's prophecy about those pseudo-christs must also be a past event to us.   Long past.

The End is not Yet and the End is not immediately is pretty much the same thing. And I am not suggesting its 2000 years down the road per se. I am saying that there is three succinct periods of time in Matthew and each period tells about false christs and false prophets.

Matthew 24:1-6 is about the Temples and Cities Destruction.....Jesus tells them then End is not yet.

Matthew 24:7-13 is from AD 70 to the Rapture which will happen any day now unto when ever it happens in the near future.

Matthew 24:14-27 is about the Tribulation

Matthew 28-31 is about the Second Coming.

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #17 on: Tue Sep 12, 2017 - 02:38:28 »


I'll tell you of gleanings of Matthew 24 that are overlooked by almost everyone: Christ's instructions to His apostles recorded in Matthew 24:29-30a.

Offline Fisherking

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Re: Gleanings in Matthew 24
« Reply #18 on: Thu Sep 28, 2017 - 22:52:10 »
You need to add in verse 31 to clarify.\

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the Rapture of the Church happens, we go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb, after 7 Years we Return with Jesus (Rev. 19) and that is IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. The Elect have to be gathered fro one end of HEAVEN to the other.