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Offline rezar

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He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 12:48:06 »
What kingdom did Christ deliver up to the Father?

From "the Parousia , 1878, by James S. Russell"

There is one point of time constantly indicated in the New Testament as the consummation of the kingdom of God. Our Lord declared that there were some among His disciples who should live to see Him coming in His kingdom. This coming of course, is synonymous with the coming of the kingdom, and limits the occurrence of the event to the then existing generation. That is to say, the consummation of the kingdom synchronizes with the judgment of Israel and the destruction of Jerusalem, all being parts of one great catastrophe. It was at that period that the Son of man was to come in the glory of His Father, and to sit upon the throne of His glory; to render a reward to His servants and retribution to His enemies (Mt.xxv:31). We find these events uniformly associated together in the N.T.,- the coming of the King, the resurrection of the dead, the judgment of the righteous & wicked, the consummation of the kingdom, the end of the age.
Thus St. Paul, in 2Tim4:5 says, 'I charge thee therefore, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and His kingdom.' The coming, the judgment the kingdom are all coincident and contemporaneous, and not only so, but also nigh at hand; for the apostle says, 'Who is about to judge; who shall soon judge." (Greek words).
It is perfectly clear, then, according to the N.T, that that the consummation, or winding up, of the Theocratic kingdom took place at the period of the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgment of Israel. The Theocracy had served its purpose; the experiment had been tried whether or no the covenant nation would prove loyal to their King. It had failed; Israel had rejected her King; and it only remained that the penalties of the violated covenant should be enforced. We see the result in the ruin of their city, the effacement of the nation, and the abrogation of the law of Moses, accompanied with scenes of horror and suffering. That great catastrophe, therefore, marks the conclusion of the Theocratic kingdom.
It had been from the beginning of a strictly national character- it was the divine Kingship over Israel. It necessarily terminated, therefore, with the termination of the national existence of Israel, when the outward and visible symbols of the divine Presence and Sovereignty passed away; when the house of God, the city of God, and the people of God were effeaced from existence by one desolating and final catastrophe.

This enables us to understand the language of St. Paul when, speaking of the coming of Christ, he represents that event as marking  'the end' (Gr. words) when He shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father' (1Cor.xv.24)
This has caused much perplexity to many theologians and commentators, who have seemed it as derogatory to the divinity of the Son of God that He should resign His mediatorial functions and his kingly character, and sink, as it were, into the position of private person, becoming subject instead of sovereign.

But the embarrassment has arisen from overlooking the nature of the kingdom which the Son had administered, and which He at length surrenders. It was the Messianic kingdom over Israel: that peculiar and unique government exercised over the covenant nation, and administered by the mediatorship of the Son of God for so many ages. That relation was now dissolved, for the nation had been judged, the temple destroyed, and the symbols of divine Sovereignty removed. Why should the Theocratic kingdom be continued any longer? There was nothing to administer. There was no longer a covenant nation, the covenant was broken, and Israel ceased to exist as a distinct nationality.
What more natural and proper, therefore, than at such a juncture for the Mediator to resign His mediatorial functions, and to deliver up the insignia of government into which He received them? Ages before that period the Father had invested the Son with viceregal functions of the Theocracy. It had proclaimed, ' I have set my King upon my holy hill of Zion: I will declare the decree; the Lord hath said to me, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee' (Ps.ii.6,7).
The purpose for which the Son had assumed the administration of the Theocratic government had been effected. The covenant was dissolved, its violation avenged, the enemies of Christ and of God were destroyed; the true and faithful servants were rewarded, and the Theocracy came to an end. This was surely the fitting moment for the Mediator to resign His charge into the hands of the Father, that is to say, ' to deliver up the kingdom.'
But there is nothing derogatory to the dignity of the Son. On the contrary, 'He is the Mediator of a better covenant.'


I will continue with this later. His exerpt 'The kingdom of God, or of heaven' is 5 pages, so I must find the most concise & explanatory paragraphs.

But this is an introduction to covenant theology.

Here I suggest (as does this author) that the "end of the age" was the end of the Old Covenant & law, never the end of the Christian age. That is not seen in the Bible. The opposite is true. His kingdom never ends.(Dan2) Same as-The church age never ends.(Eph.3:20-21)

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He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« on: Fri Dec 04, 2009 - 12:48:06 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 15:51:26 »
Intercresting reading.  Must needs go re-read the passage in 1Corinthians it is referring to before commenting.

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 15:51:26 »

Stucky

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #2 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 16:52:14 »
Rezar,

I want to understand clearly what you believe.  I am not smart enough to clearly understand that by Mr. Russell's dissertation.  He is intellectual and I am not.  His use of words that I don't understand and dogmatic phrases confuses me.

Would you answer some questions for me, without doing a dissertation on them?  Please pretend you are talking to a child, because you actually are.

I assume you believe that nothing in the Bible of a prophetic nature applies to anything after the 1st century AD?

Do you believe that Jesus will not physically return to the earth and that every eye shall see him coming in the clouds above the earth?

Do you believe that the Jews of today in Israel were not brought to the land  by God?

Do you believe that God, at a future date, will not come secretly and take the Church off the earth to be with Him when He returns publicly the second time?

Do you believe that there will not be a world dictator from the original Roman territory that will be filled with satan and that will cause some sort of Abomination of Desolation (whatever it may be) in a future Jewish temple?

Do you believe that the Jews will not rebuild their temple?

Do you believe there will be no future war of Armageddon?

I think that's enough for now.  I have more questions though.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 19:55:22 »
Rezar,

I find little to criticize in the article itself, though I have other basic objections to the tenor of what is being promulgated.

The point about the timing is on, though I have usually associated this verse (1Cor 15:24) with times future, with the understanding that verse 25 encompassed an indeterminate amount of time in which Jesus was ruling, brining all things to perfection.

My main problem with swallowing all of this is verse 26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Resurrection does seem to be a victory over death, but it doesn't seem to be what is promised in the rest of the book.  Check Rev 21, where it is promised that at the end, "there shall be no more death."

Yet it is manifest that people are still dying, subsequent to the events of 70AD.  How can I not conclude that this is yet to come?

Jarrod

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 19:55:22 »

Offline rezar

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 22:30:56 »

Yes, Jarrod, I see your point. I should say I used to see that point too.

Scripture about our heavenly inheritance, we do have, but I don't believe it's in Rev.21 &22. Preterists all concur on the visions & descriptions being of earth & being strickly about Israel's OT fulfillment in Christ. It gives a picture of the Bride & the New Jerusalem. This is mainly a picture of salvation for the faithful Jews in the new heavens & earth. We Gentile believers are understood to be in the New Jerusalem church bc it is universal in Christ.

But the death spoken about in Rev.21, I believe is still while we are on this earth, but in the New Covenant faith is the "eternal life" promise. Eternal life starts in this life.
And it's a spiritual death spoken of too bc of the sin/death removal with the removal of the law. Paul equated the law with sin & death. So, I think we are referring to a death that was imposed up to that time. Then with the outward sign of the temple being thrown down, that's when the Jewish theocracy would end. And the ministration of death would end. With the passing away of the law of Moses & old, fleshly Jerusalem. And the timing in Rev21 would start in AD70 with the "New" Jerusalem.
So I think the "death" being spoken about in Rev.21:2? is mainly spiritual death & lack of the Holy Spirit & relationship with the Father. I think the eternal part of everlasting life becomes a reality too, but not in Rev.21 & 22.

Is there a difference between resurrection from the dead & a resurrection of the dead from Hades?  Maybe in time frame & Testaments for Israel. Most of the time I find the Scriptures referring to be referring to spiritually dead rather than the book of life being opened for Israel as in Rev 20:11, which is Hades (Israel) & the sea (heathen) being raised. But notice it doesn't say anything about the heathen being thrown into the lake of fire? Only Death & Hades was, bc this is Israel's book of life or not. And it was the Jews that God's wrath were on during the R/J war- & were killed & thrown into the "lake of fire" or the fire pit outside the city. Not the Gentiles.

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 22:30:56 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #5 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 11:39:58 »
Yes, Jarrod, I see your point. I should say I used to see that point too.

Scripture about our heavenly inheritance, we do have, but I don't believe it's in Rev.21 &22. Preterists all concur on the visions & descriptions being of earth & being strickly about Israel's OT fulfillment in Christ. It gives a picture of the Bride & the New Jerusalem. This is mainly a picture of salvation for the faithful Jews in the new heavens & earth. We Gentile believers are understood to be in the New Jerusalem church bc it is universal in Christ.
Am I misunderstanding?  The verse is about the New Jerusalem, which you are saying includes us, but before that you said that the passage was only about Israel?  Here's the verse I was referring to:

Rev 21:4   And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 

Quote
But the death spoken about in Rev.21, I believe is still while we are on this earth, but in the New Covenant faith is the "eternal life" promise. Eternal life starts in this life.

And it's a spiritual death spoken of too bc of the sin/death removal with the removal of the law. Paul equated the law with sin & death. So, I think we are referring to a death that was imposed up to that time.
That doesn't make sense.  It says no more sorrow or crying or death or pain.  These things all still exist.  You can say death is "spiritual death" but where does that leave the other 3?  They seem to be literal.

Also, the verse is part of "what is spoken" in Revelation, and not part of "what is seen," so it cannot be a symbol.

Quote
Then with the outward sign of the temple being thrown down, that's when the Jewish theocracy would end. And the ministration of death would end. With the passing away of the law of Moses & old, fleshly Jerusalem. And the timing in Rev21 would start in AD70 with the "New" Jerusalem.
So I think the "death" being spoken about in Rev.21:2? is mainly spiritual death & lack of the Holy Spirit & relationship with the Father. I think the eternal part of everlasting life becomes a reality too, but not in Rev.21 & 22.

Is there a difference between resurrection from the dead & a resurrection of the dead from Hades?  Maybe in time frame & Testaments for Israel. Most of the time I find the Scriptures referring to be referring to spiritually dead rather than the book of life being opened for Israel as in Rev 20:11, which is Hades (Israel) & the sea (heathen) being raised. But notice it doesn't say anything about the heathen being thrown into the lake of fire? Only Death & Hades was, bc this is Israel's book of life or not. And it was the Jews that God's wrath were on during the R/J war- & were killed & thrown into the "lake of fire" or the fire pit outside the city. Not the Gentiles.
You don't seem at all sure in interpreting this passage.  Rev 21 is after all those events:

Rev 21:1 ΒΆ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 

Offline rezar

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #6 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 15:10:11 »
Jarrod, or if I call you "Wycliffes" would that jog your memory? bc we've discussed the Rev.21, no death, pain & tears subject before. You don;t remember yet you try to say I don't understand the verse well? Well, that only reinforces my confidence. A good memory.

Anyway, I thought we progressed in the discussion of "spiritual" life or death & "physical or literal death" as a matter of fact of those that were in Hades, but you're asking me the same thing you did last year or 6+ months ago!

We (all Christians live in the universal church of the first-born in the spiritual "Zion" that came down from heaven (prophetically) It didn't literally leave bc it's not material, it's a spiritual city - Ther's no temple in it bc WE ARE the temples in it & we don't need the sun to shine on us- this is all prophetic language.

Yes. Rev21 is speaking about Israel's faithful remnant. And this is EARTH -the new earth where righteousness dwells.
No more tears, pain , death, is prophetic not literal. And for Israel especially when compared to their last days of wrath & death & pain & sorrow from the great tribulation.

It's the same wording from Isaiah 65:19.

Rev.21:1,
All Things Made New
 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.


Stop right there! This is in no way not in a trillion years literal. Here's where you need to see the spiritual prophecy of the new earth. (universal church) And the prophetic "sea" is no more, bc it separated men. But in the new covenant church (spiritual & universal) there are no more barriers to come & drink the living water & accept the gospel of Christ. Men were separated by the  "sea" but now come to the heavenly Jerusalem to worship the King (Zech14)

With the abrogation & destruction of the typical system associated with the law of Moses & the Mosaic age, John sees in that verse, a new ordered system in its place- one where "righteousness dwells" (2Pet.3:13) as distinguished from the iniquity & disbelief which marked the Jewish commonwealth in its last days. The imagery of a new heavens & earth is derived from the bk. of Isaiah where it had both mediate & immediate apllication. In its historical immediate application, the new heavens & earth was a poetical description looking to the restoration of Israel to its land after the Babylonian captivity. However, in its mediate plenary application & significance, the new heavens & earth looked to the Messianic age & kingdom.
Isaiah intermingled passages describing dissolution of the earth & other nations &with it redemption & regeneration combined. (Isa.24:19-20); Jer.4:23-26)
 The new heavens & earth of the recreation are thus described in terms of the wolf dwelling with the lamb, the calf & the young lion together (Isa.11; 65) Streams of waters are depicted breaking out in desert places, the wilderness blossoming as a rose (Isa35:1-10)
In the midst of the new earth sits the mountain of the house of the Lord, the holy city, new Jerusalem, unto which ALL nations flow together to worship & serve the God of Israel (Isa.2:1-4; 60:1-22)
The law of sin & death is gone. This is spiritual death. No more tears compared to the great trib & the end of the age of that exclusive kingdom. (which Christ handed up to the Father)
No more pain is the same as no more tears for Israel. We should not lose the protective mechanism of "pain" anyway, to protect us from further injury.

It's not literal, but prophetic language. I will try to delve into Rev.21 &22 more. This is not a literal physical city. Nor can it be in reality. We are not going to need medicine or healings in heaven.
The fruit not failing in Rev22 is taken from the 1st Psalm. This is a spiritual truth about the faithful on earth post AD70- in the new creation.


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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #7 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 16:12:30 »
That's right, Rezar, the whole Bible is spiritual, not literal.  Jesus NEVER walked the earth for real, He was not crucified for real, did really ascend to Heaven, it was all spiritual.  Just some kinda dream God had.  sometimes some views stretch the imagination to incredibility.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 16:24:53 »
Maybe it would help if I explained my paradigm for interpreting Revelation.

I believe that all the things that are SEEN are visions.  I don't think they are literal. I think they represent things and people and events.

I believe that all the things which are SPOKEN are explanations of the visions.  Therefore, they are literal, at least to the same extent anyone's speech is.

So when you say that Rev 21:1 is symbolic...yes I agree, because it's a vision.

But Verse 4 is not part of that vision.   It is something SPOKEN about the vision - an explanation.  So I believe it is literal.

Does that make sense?

Stucky

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #9 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 16:28:43 »
Maybe it would help if I explained my paradigm for interpreting Revelation.

I believe that all the things that are SEEN are visions.  I don't think they are literal. I think they represent things and people and events.

I believe that all the things which are SPOKEN are explanations of the visions.  Therefore, they are literal, at least to the same extent anyone's speech is.

So when you say that Rev 21:1 is symbolic...yes I agree, because it's a vision.

But Verse 4 is not part of that vision.   It is something SPOKEN about the vision - an explanation.  So I believe it is literal.

Does that make sense?

That makes more sense, and in a simple manner, that anything I've read in a long time.

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 17:41:28 »
LOL!!  I just realized that my title to the left has changed b/c I passed 5000 posts.

It used to be 'hero' and my tag was designed so it said, "You're my Hero"

Now, I looked over there and it says, "You're my Legendary Member!"

That doesn't sound quite right...I'd better go fix it.  ::noworries::

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Re: He shall deliver up the kingdom to God
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 08, 2009 - 19:00:33 »
Maybe it would help if I explained my paradigm for interpreting Revelation.

I believe that all the things that are SEEN are visions.  I don't think they are literal. I think they represent things and people and events.

I believe that all the things which are SPOKEN are explanations of the visions.  Therefore, they are literal, at least to the same extent anyone's speech is.

So when you say that Rev 21:1 is symbolic...yes I agree, because it's a vision.

But Verse 4 is not part of that vision.   It is something SPOKEN about the vision - an explanation.  So I believe it is literal.

Does that make sense?
Yea, no, I don't understand it. How life can change so suddenly for you in Rev.21, just from hearing something- something that should still be in reality connected to the time & the vision. So, no, I don't see how reality just flip- flops it all pertaining to the same time & subject.
After all the tabernacle of God is with men now, through the Spirit. I think the "last day" was the last day of the feast of Tabernacles in AD70. Or, it is just termed "the eighth day." Or after the Sabbath was over- the New Earth- the New Jerusalem.

The tabernacle of God is with men (21:3) God's presence was sequestered in the Holy of Holies. The worshiper could approach only through the mediation of priests & blood sprinkling. There was an annual atonement for sin & the tabernacle to cleanse it from the errors of the people. (Lev.16:29-34) By this arrangement God's presence symbolically dwelt among the people: "And I will set my tabernacle among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. (Lev.26:11-12)  However, that system was merely provisional, a shadow of "good things to come" (Heb.10:1;Col.2:17).
The substitutionary death & atoning blood of Christ were the reality of which the earthly tabernacle was but a type. With the removal of Judaism, the greater & more perfect tabernacle was free to come. (Heb.9:11)

Eph.2:19-22,
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

     
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