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Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #35 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:40:10 »
No, that "man of sin" is not some collectivist sense idea. You cannot apply it that way since Paul definitely did not. Paul made it plain he was speaking of ONE PARTICULAR MAN, not to 'all men' like you've wrongly surmised.

Likewise it is in Matt.24:23-26, and in Dan.11, and in Rev.13:11 forward, they all are speaking of a specific singular entity, i.e., the coming Antichrist.

It is surprising that you would suddenly jump to that doctrine of men collectivist idea for "man of sin", especially since in your previous posts you said those Scriptures I mentioned were all about the same person, the Antichrist. You do realize teaching that collectivist sense goes against that don't you?
I must answer you in the morning on this, and truly looking forward to do so. Also I want to address this point that you made:
Quote
I very much believe what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2 as written, i.e., that before Jesus comes to gather His Church, 2 main events must occur first, 1) a great falling away, and 2) the man of sin must be revealed (doing what though? sitting in the temple of God which has historically always meant Jerusalem).
I will consider both later.

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #35 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:40:10 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #36 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:51:03 »


I do listen. I actually sent RB a pm letting him know you are not a full dispensationalist. But you do sound like a partial-dispensationalist because you are looking for a fulfillment of an earthy kingdom involving racial Israel.

You said;
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..

No, I'm not a Dispensationalist even in the partial sense. That was a doctrine John Darby started to further his false Pre-trib Rapture theories. In particular, Dispensationalism teaches Israel will be established on earth during the Millennium while Christ and His Church reign from Heaven. That's especially how Darby setup Dispensationalism to support the Pre-trib theories.


Quote
Why I asked you to consider Christ's testimony on who He would draw unto himself.

That is one of the core tenets of dispensationalist, dividing the body of Christ with a dual covenant race & grace theology. One of the reasons I said what I did above.

I do not divide Christ's body of believers, of both Israelite and Gentile. But I do follow Scripture.

So what does God's Word actually teach about Israel?

It teaches that the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" and the branch of Judah or "house of Judah", will be joined back together again in the middle east where He promised their fathers, with David as their king. This is plainly written in Ezekiel 37 for one, as also in many other OT Scriptures. That will most definitely involve Christ's Church, as Christ's Church will be the heart of those help Jesus rule over Israel and the nations in that future time ON EARTH. (See Ezek.44, the Zadok (the Just) represent Christ's overcomers, His Church.)

When our Lord Jesus returns, He is going to gather His Church and go immediately to Jerusalem as written in Zechariah 14. That is where and when the 1,000 years Millennium of Rev.20 will begin.

What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

When Jesus comes, many in the Church are going to discover they had an old heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel all along.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #37 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:52:30 »
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.

I'm not so sure about that.

Please consider these verses at the beginning of Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples ask two questions.

1. regarding the temple - "when shall these things be?"

2. "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?"

Thus we know we have two topics contained in Jesus' answer & have to discern which is about the destruction of the earthy temple of the past & the Second Advent.

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #38 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:01:54 »
To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.
I strongly believe we are for many different reasons, that I must share later~for now, I believe that it started somehwere around the late seventeen hundred to the early 1800's. Stop and consider with me~think of all the many leading false cults in the world today and when they started? Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA all started within two hundred miles of each other in around the mid-1800's.  The tongue movement around the 1830, or thereabouts; to where we are now with so many prosperity gospel preachers who are super rich, etc. We could say more, but this world and its religion landscape made a major change in the last 170 years or so! What are three hundred years in man's sight? NOT MUCH, not even a little season in God's timeline for this earth.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 15:28:41 by RB »

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #38 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:01:54 »
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Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #39 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:03:54 »
When Jesus comes, many in the Church are going to discover they had an old heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel all along.

Probably so. Mathematically the odds are in the favor that we all are.

Consider this, If we use 40 years as a generation (which is very generous) making only 68 generations to that time. Then calculate 4(grandparents) to the 68th(generations) power to calculate the exponent(total). Which produces 87,112,285,931,760,246,646,623,899,502,532,662,132,736 grandparents.

The sheer magnitude & impossibility of that many grandparents should put the reality into perspective. The number is so large in just 68 generations that it is virtually impossible for us all not to be.

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #39 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:03:54 »



Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #40 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:04:47 »
To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.
I strongly believe we are for many different reasons, that I must share later~for now, I believe that it started somehwere around the late seventeen hundred to the early 1800's. Stop and consider with me~think of all the many leading false cults in the world today and when they started? Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA all started with two hundred miles of each other in around the mid-1800's.  The tongue movement around the 1830, or thereabouts; to where we are now with so many prosperity gospel preachers who are super rich, etc. We could say more, but this world and its religion landscape made a major change in the last 170 years or so! What tow to three hundred years in man's sight? NOT MUCH, not even a little season in God timeline for this earth.

We're close on that timing thinking too.  ::tippinghat::

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #41 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:07:26 »
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No, Paul is speaking of the historic Jerusalem temple. That has always been considered the temple of God throughout Bible history, including in his day with the standing 2nd temple.

Understanding Daniel 11 is very important, because it reveals the abomination of desolation event involves a condition in Jerusalem when the old covenant is established again (called the holy covenant there), because it involves the daily sacrifice. That is pointing exactly to what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have always planned ever since they became a nation again in 1948, establish the old covenant temple and sacrifices and priesthood, again. They believe they are still under the old covenant. They do not believe on our Lord Jesus, and that's important to remember.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #42 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:08:39 »
What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

Regarding Ezekiel's temple you are looking for a literal fulfillment & not considering that it is a signified pattern just like Moses' tabernacle. A pattern whose fulfillment is revealed as the spiritual temple Christ has built.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #43 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:11:29 »
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.

I'm not so sure about that.

Please consider these verses at the beginning of Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples ask two questions.

1. regarding the temple - "when shall these things be?"

2. "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?"

Thus we know we have two topics contained in Jesus' answer & have to discern which is about the destruction of the earthy temple of the past & the Second Advent.

Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #44 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:13:20 »
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No it does not.

It actually illustrates what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse about deception & deceivers coming in Christ's name. Christ & the Apostles warned repeatedly about corruption of Godly truth within the Church. The Apostles themselves had to deal with it in their lifetime.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #45 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:23:33 »
dpr, we are actually not that far apart on a lot of things.

You're trying to make the case that earthly Jerusalem is "the Temple of God".

I can make a very strong case that earthly Jerusalem is Babylon the Great, the mother of all harlots via the testimony of Jesus, John, Paul, Jeremiah, etc. Thus, the "vile one" be in that city.

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 17:22:43 by TonkaTim »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #46 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:30:33 »
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:34:44 by TonkaTim »

notreligus

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #47 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 15:10:29 »
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

I wish I could give you more than one +. 


notreligus

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #48 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 16:30:43 »
How does the man of sin defile a Temple which was built for use by apostate Jews?   

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #49 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 01:34:40 »
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.

Yes I read it. But no... it doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is timing for AFTER Christ's SECOND coming, not His first. It's easy to know this because at no other time are His elect resurrected from the dead to reign with Him. Not only that, but our Lord Jesus doesn't even begin to reign over the earth until He sits upon the throne promised Him, which is His father David's throne, an earthly throne.

Christ's ordained purpose of destroying the works of the devil does not change God's timetable for when His Son will de facto return to this earth and reign with His elect Church. Apostle Paul showed us in 1 Cor.15:23-28 that The Father has a timetable for that. Likewise with the destruction of the devil at the end of the 1,000 years, that is according to God's timetable also. Assuming that timetable was changed is to not understand the Scriptures about the devil's defeat by our Lord Jesus.

The miracles our Lord Jesus did at His 1st coming to include the casting out of demons signifies His Power and Kingdom alright. But Jesus agreed to put His coming physical Kingdom in abeyance when He gave up His life on the cross, which is what His 1st coming was actually about. When His disciples thought to defend Him against those who would kill Him, He told His servants that He could pray to The Father and He'd send 12 legions of angels (Matt.26:53). But how would the Scriptures be fulfilled?

The passage in Luke 10 about Satan's fall was NOT... about the Revelation 12:7 forward event. In Daniel 12 this is revealed when the Rev.12:7-17 events will take place:

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV


That idea of the Archangel Michael 'standing up' is about the war in heaven against Satan and his army at the end of this world which will begin that time on earth, which is what kind of time there? It is a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation event to that same time. That is a direct reference to Christ's warning of the future time of "great tribulation" per His Olivet discourse.


The context of the following Scripture in Rev.12 is about our near future regarding the "great tribulation" events:

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.'
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

When Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven, there being no more place in Heaven found for them, that is when this will be said at that point in time Salvation is come in Heaven, and the power of Christ, which means Christ had already fulfilled His Ministry of dying on the cross with The Father having raised Him to the right hand of His throne. Then the 11th verse about the overcomers is a tribulation timing event of those in Christ Jesus that will be killed during the tribulation, which is a 5th Seal event written of in Revelation 6.

Satan's original fall... was of old, and is recorded in Ezekiel 28 & 31, and Isaiah 14. That was when he originally rebelled in coveting God's throne. So God cast him out. That was long before Christ's 1st coming. But this here in Rev.12, this is for the "great tribulation" timing in our near future. This did not happen during Christ's 1st coming.


12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV


That "short time" is about the tribulation timing which Jesus said He shortened for His elect's sake back in Matthew 24. The "time, times, and half a time" = 3 and 1/2 and is a direct pointer to the Daniel 9 events of the last "one week", i.e., 2 periods of 1260 days each equaling a total of seven symbolic years. Revelation 11 & 13 give us that timing also for how long the dragon will work on earth, and how long God's two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem at the end.

Rev.12:17 reveals the serpent's flood out of his mouth is directed towards those who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. That means those of Christ's faithful Church.

In Rev.16 we are shown the spirits of devils working on the earth to gather up the kings of the east for the battle of Armageddon. All these Revelation events showing the things leading up to Christ's 2nd coming are not just going to go away. Human reasoning cannot remove them. We can either choose to listen to our Lord in His Revelation about the end of this world, or we can try to go our own way and suffer the consequences for not obeying His command for these last days.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #50 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:06:00 »

The labels are just definitions of understanding.

Yes, many of the early church father were pre-mill & many were not, they were amill. They were the two understandings of the early church.


Let us be more accurate than that; most of the writings of the 1st century Church fathers reveal they were millennialists. The doctrine of amillennialism didn't actually begin until the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D. Thus I see amillennialism as a latter corruption, which is how such corruptions usually work, i.e., leaving original doctrine for something else, just like what the pre-trib founders did in the 1830's with leaving the traditional post-trib view that the Christian Church had held for around 1,800 years.

Quote
The pre-mill of the early church was completely different that what is thought today & did not expect a dual covenant racial fulfillment theology. As a matter of fact they thought the return to land is significant event pointing to the coming of antichrist. Hippolytus wrote ""I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it." And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm


Actually, even bringing up ideas of comparison to Dispensationalism, which was an invention of the 1800's, is completely irrelevant to the 1st century Church father's millennial views. Bible prophecy for the end is about a millennial kingdom reign on earth for 1,000 years by Christ and His elect Church. Just before this, they saw the coming of a false one, i.e., the Antichrist, prior to Christ's 2nd coming. Their view I very much align with. Just so happens that's actually the view of Holy Writ, and that is why anyone who seriously keeps to God's Holy Writ as written are also going to be aligned with the 1st century Church fathers.


Quote
But for a long time pre-mill fell to the wayside due to understanding like I explained about regarding Jesus' testimony in all four gospels regarding the binding of Satan illustrating the two verses in Revelation is signified. As stated in the very first verse of the Book. That Book does explain the binding only applies to deception of the nations. Prior to the Cross of Christ all nations were deceived & engaged in paganism & forms of apostasy. Why I also noted that the Gospel going throughout the world is evidence because it proves that Satan can not deceive those from believing the Gospel thus no longer able keep them in bondage.


I don't see this later understanding written anywhere in God's Word. I only see men trying to 'push' it into Scripture when it is not there at all, much like what the pre-trib school tries to do.


Quote
To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.


I don't see how any believer born in my era could miss how rotten the world has fallen into. I have never seen the like of today's persecutions in the Christian west when I was a child many decades ago.


Quote
Satan was already cast down. Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" Jesus instructed John in the first chapter "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" There are three components in Jesus' instruction to John, past - "hast seen", John's present - "which are", future - "shall be hereafter". When we study this book we have to be able to discern this as well. If it were not important for our understanding Jesus would not have told us.


Satan was originally cast down when he rebelled against God in coveting His throne in the time of old. If God has opened you eyes in OT Scripture about that, you'd know that was in a time even before Adam and Eve. It was a time when Satan actually followed God and was exalted as a covering cherub (guard of God's throne).

In the Book of Job we are shown how Satan has access to the Heavenly at God's Throne (Rev.12 shows this too), and also walking up and down and in the earth. He is still free to do this today. The binding of Rev.20 is only for AFTER... Christ's 2nd coming when the "first resurrection" will occur.

When our Lord Jesus died on the cross and The Father raised Him, right then His spiritual Kingdom came into existence; but not His physical Kingdom per the OT prophets of what God promised in final. Paul said that Christ must reign until all His enemies are put under Him. And then He will submit the Kingdom to The Father (1 Cor.15:23-28). That is about His 1,000 years reign on earth over all... nations, which is one of the subjects of Rev.20.

As of now, Christ's 1st coming happened way... over 1,000 years ago. So if His Kingdom came into existence then with Satan bound then per Rev.20, then those in Christ should be in God's new heavens and new earth timing by now. But we aren't. And the reason why is because Christ's 1,000 years reign per Rev.20 is still in our future.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #51 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:35:04 »
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

I know some of you guys like to throw the sanctuary of Ezekiel back in the past, but it has NEVER been built yet. Nor has there ever manifested on earth a Jerusalem temple which emitted healing waters out from under the house like the Ezekiel 47 Chapter shows, and in connection with the Tree of Life. Anyone can claim that was past history, but their claim simply falls by the wayside once the Ezekiel Scripture about it is read and declared.

Ezekiel 40 thru 47 reveals there will be a physical temple/sanctuary involved in Jerusalem after Christ's return, and it will be for the 1,000 years of Rev.20. It is going to be a time of correction upon God's people. It is in that sanctuary where Christ's elect will serve Him at His table (Ezekiel 44). Only the Zadok (the Just) priests (which represent Christ's faithful Church) will be allowed to approach near Him (Ezek.44).


Why Apostle Paul's "temple of God" is a Physical Temple in Jerusalem The Antichrist Will Invade:

Reasoning that, if unbelievers build a temple with human hands, that means it can't be the temple of God, does not work.

The whole premise about the very end of this world with the coming Antichrist is about deception to a pseudo-Christ (Matt.24:23-26). The orthodox Jews do NOT believe on our Lord Jesus Christ! They still think they are living under the OLD COVENANT. That means 'they'... believe a temple and sacrifices are STILL REQUIRED TODAY! Their actions are based on THEIR understanding of the times, and not on our thoughts who have believed on Jesus Christ. This is why you cannot insert our Christian thinking into their minds.

Our Lord Jesus showed 'us' (His Church), that the Antichrist is being prepared for the rebellious unbelieving Jews, especially those Jews with the attitude like the scribes and Pharisees which sought to accuse our Lord.

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV


Well, that another is coming, i.e., the Antichrist, or pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus warned of. Even with the Greek for "antichrist", in the Greek it can mean the 'instead of Christ', or 'in place of Christ'. That is what the coming Antichrist's job is, to deceive the rebellious who have not believed our Heavenly Father and His Son, and His prophets and Apostles.

Jerusalem is where God has chosen to dwell forever. That is why Satan is coming there to try and claim it for himself, doing the very same sin he did back of old, coveting what belongs to our Heavenly Father.

That is why the orthodox unbelieving Jews will be happy to build that next temple for Messiah to sit in. Excuse me; did I say for Messiah to sit in? I meant the Antichrist, however, they don't know that part about the Antichrist. They will think and believe he is their Messiah having come to restore their kingdom, just as the OT prophets did proclaim.

Deceived Christian brethren who listen to charlatans will be happy to help those Jews build it. Many of these deceived Christians have already been donating funds just for the future building of the temple. Red heifers from the USA have been sent also. Some orthodox Jews have been doing passover animal sacrifices on a hill overlooking the temple mount for several years now (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).



Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #52 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:40:55 »
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.
Brother you are correct. Brother, the 70 A.D. theory is JUST THAT, a theory as far as having any biblical relevant. That doctrine is much like the secret rapture theory if one had never heard of either them when coming to search the scriptures, then that person would leave the scriptures still NEVER knowing either one of them for they are BOTH a lie as far as having any part in biblical eschatology. The destruction of literal Jerusalem was not even on Jesus' mind when he gave the Olivet discourse, it is strictly dealing with the latter days of this world just before Christ return again, and his second coming.
Quote
Matthew 24:36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This generation that shall not passed till all be fulfilled is (just as the context reveals to us) is the evil generation of the wicked...the ungodly of this world. Almost without exception when this generation phrase is used it always refers to evil and ungodly children of the old serpent. David so used it in this sense~Psalm 12, so the John the Baptist and Jesus~Matthew 3; Matthew 23.

That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24.

He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV


Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled. (God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).


Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #53 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:49:48 »
What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

Regarding Ezekiel's temple you are looking for a literal fulfillment & not considering that it is a signified pattern just like Moses' tabernacle. A pattern whose fulfillment is revealed as the spiritual temple Christ has built.

No doubt in my mind; it will be a literal physical event. Read Ezekiel 47 and tell me where that manifests at.

It's important to remember that our Lord Jesus Christ is our King, and He is coming to sit upon his father David's throne and restore the kingdom of Israel like of old. Christ's faithful Church will have a part in that, even as all nations of the saved will. So it's important to not treat that future establishing as something foreign to Christ's Church.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #54 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:56:25 »
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No it does not.

It actually illustrates what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse about deception & deceivers coming in Christ's name. Christ & the Apostles warned repeatedly about corruption of Godly truth within the Church. The Apostles themselves had to deal with it in their lifetime.

Sorry brother, but you simply have not thought that out thoroughly. If Paul meant the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 for that "temple of God", it would mean the spiritual temple IN HEAVEN could be corrupted. The 'spiritual'... temple is not a flesh temple.

It is our spirit that is represented by the 'lively stones' idea, where corruption is impossible. Those who fall away to Antichrist are simply 'cut off' from the spiritual temple and are no more the 'lively stones'.

I strongly suggest you read Ezekiel 8 (which represents what the fallen leaders of Israel do in God's house).

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #55 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 03:03:01 »
dpr, we are actually not that far apart on a lot of things.

You're trying to make the case that earthly Jerusalem is "the Temple of God".

I can make a very strong case that earthly Jerusalem is Babylon the Great, the mother of all harlots via the testimony of Jesus, John, Paul, Jeremiah, etc. Thus, the "vile one" be in that city.

I disagree with your first statement, not your last.

I do not see the building of another temple when the Antichrist shows up, and sits in it proclaiming himself to be God, as a true temple of God. It's just that is what Paul in 2 Thess.2 called it.

The point from Apostle Paul you are missing is just why... would he say that? i.e., why would Paul use that "temple of God" label for the Antichrist coming to deceive many of God's people? It's because it's many of God's people that are going to be deceived.

Don't forget that God is Who blinded the majority of the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles is done (Rom.11). That blindness won't be removed from the majority of them until Jesus returns. So to them, the temple they think they need and require, they see as the "temple of God", which is the idea Paul is really pointing us to.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #56 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 03:10:57 »
How does the man of sin defile a Temple which was built for use by apostate Jews?

How did Antiochus IV defile the 2nd temple back in 170 B.C.?

This argument that Paul's "temple of God" cannot be another physical temple in Jerusalem for the end is getting very old. You guys really aren't fooling anyone. Grasping that Paul was talking about a literal temple the Antichrist will sit in is easy to understand; our Lord Jesus covered the idea first!

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV


A simple quote from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" is all our Lord Jesus had to say, and it automatically points to a physical temple! and it points to a false one coming to spiritually desolate that literal temple with the placing of an a literal idol in it. This Antiochus IV in 170-165 B.C. did in Jerusalem, in the temple (see the Jewish historian Josephus).

That is the subject of the following Scripture also:

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV


Matt 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Along with those same signs, Jesus gave the signs of His 2nd coming, and the gathering of His Church. That places these events at the END of this world, not at His 1st coming.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #57 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 04:04:10 »
Dear brother dpr, forgive me if I sound impolite. But after an 11 hour pause you return & rehash this entire thread. Restating all you have already said. Not picking up on where we left off discussing 2 Peter 3. By appearance of this action it seems you are not trying to convince anyone other than yourself. That your intent is to reject everything everyone has said to you so you can hold on to the end times doctrine you already have.

No one can make another believe but I had hoped you would have considered what was presented.


Much brotherly love, TT

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #58 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 04:41:31 »
That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24. He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse. Matt 24:33-34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things[/b], know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled.
"IF" we first consider the overall context of this discourse which includes both chapters 24 and 25, then it is clear concerning the sense in which Jesus used the words this generation especially in light of Matthew 24:5-30. We must allow God's word to defines its own meaning of the words under consideration, not Webster, or Oxford. You said that Jesus was not speaking of an evil generation as he did in Matthew 23, but that he was speaking of the generation living when these things begin to come to pass....there is some problems with that view, and it is not one but a few. Why would you want to use Webster's definition of the word generation when studying the scriptures? God is his own dictionary, and the Spirit will give us the sense in which He uses words so that we can come to an understanding of the truth. There are many words used in the scriptures that we must allow the scriptures to tell us what sense they are being used for. Bread is not always the liquid substance that we eat, it very well could mean the word of God! Israel is not always the natural seed of Abraham~it could and does often mean God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles. He could even mean Christ and does at times mean Jacob, and Jacob could be used for the elect, etc. the list can go on and on, as you know. So we follow the scriptures and trust God to reveal to us its true sense and meaning. But, to add one point, I will say that even if you took Christ meaning a generation as it is used in the common sense used by the world, and Webster, etc. You still would have a problem.

What is a generation in its common use? "It is a class of persons among people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in different stages of age of man is the same. There shall be young people, middle-aged, and old together. Or they shall be upon the stage of action. All together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation." According to Moses in Psalm 90 this last around 70 to 80 years. Now this being so, it is almost impossible that Jesus used the word generation in Matthew 24:36 in this sense for the things mentioned therein would take longer than a short generation in which all lived within.

But there is more weighted proof. Go through the Gospel's and see how Jesus ALWAYS used the word generation~it may surprise you. When used in the scriptures New or OT it for the most part ALWAYS is used to described a kind of person, NOT a period of time of men living upon the earth.
Quote
Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."
How is wise Solomon using the word generation? He is describing a kind of person, has not one thing to do with TIME. I have several other scriptures but enough for now.

If you stay with Jesus' context in Matthew 24,25, then THAT will drive the interpretation for us. Generation is used describing the many false prophets and their follower who Jesus said would say~"I'm Christ and they shall deceive many"! Confessing with the lips that Jesus is Christ proves little without exalting Christ as Lord and his word as the final authority in conduct and doctrine.
Quote
(God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).
Not sure just how simple it is, because there are some things hard to understand, yet it becomes more simple when we follow the Spirit's use of words and trust Him for our understanding.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 06:14:36 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #59 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 05:52:48 »
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.


Yes I read it. But no... it doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is timing for AFTER Christ's SECOND coming, not His first. It's easy to know this because at no other time are His elect resurrected from the dead to reign with Him. Not only that, but our Lord Jesus doesn't even begin to reign over the earth until He sits upon the throne promised Him, which is His father David's throne, an earthly throne.

The first resurrection:

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


also

Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


The Kingdom over which  Christ reigns is now:

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


Christ is reigning now:

Eph 1:18  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22  And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


See also Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14; Acts 2:32-36; Heb 10:12-13.

We are reigning with Christ now:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


A basic problem you have is that you like the observant Jew today are waiting for an earthly kingdom which is not going to happen and was never intended to be.  Christ's kingdom is the spiritual kingdom and it is a spiritual reality now.  And we are reigning with Him now.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #60 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:27:41 »
Dear brother dpr, forgive me if I sound impolite. But after an 11 hour pause you return & rehash this entire thread. Restating all you have already said. Not picking up on where we left off discussing 2 Peter 3. By appearance of this action it seems you are not trying to convince anyone other than yourself. That your intent is to reject everything everyone has said to you so you can hold on to the end times doctrine you already have.

No one can make another believe but I had hoped you would have considered what was presented.


Much brotherly love, TT

Sounds like you're trying to make excuses.

I tried my best to answer every post directed at me, and that's exactly what I did. If you got a problem with that, that I cannot help you with.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #61 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:37:21 »
That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24. He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse. Matt 24:33-34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things[/b], know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled.
"IF" we first consider the overall context of this discourse which includes both chapters 24 and 25, then it is clear concerning the sense in which Jesus used the words this generation especially in light of Matthew 24:5-30. We must allow God's word to defines its own meaning of the words under consideration, not Webster, or Oxford. You said that Jesus was not speaking of an evil generation as he did in Matthew 23, but that he was speaking of the generation living when these things begin to come to pass....there is some problems with that view, and it is not one but a few. Why would you want to use Webster's definition of the word generation when studying the scriptures? God is his own dictionary, and the Spirit will give us the sense in which He uses words so that we can come to an understanding of the truth.

I did not use a Webster's dictionary. I'm educated enough to know the different meanings for the word generation. So much for your discredit attempt on that.
 

Quote
There are many words used in the scriptures that we must allow the scriptures to tell us what sense they are being used for. Bread is not always the liquid substance that we eat, it very well could mean the word of God! Israel is not always the natural seed of Abraham~it could and does often mean God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles. He could even mean Christ and does at times mean Jacob, and Jacob could be used for the elect, etc. the list can go on and on, as you know. So we follow the scriptures and trust God to reveal to us its true sense and meaning. But, to add one point, I will say that even if you took Christ meaning a generation as it is used in the common sense used by the world, and Webster, etc. You still would have a problem.

In Matt.23 when Jesus used to the idea of a generation, He was speaking of the scribes and Pharisees that were against Him. But in Matt.24, He was speaking to His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives; the scribes and Pharisees were not... there on the Mount of Olives with them. So your attempt to place both the Matt.23 and Matt.24 chapters in the same exact context has fallen flat too.
 

Quote
What is a generation in its common use? "It is a class of persons among people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in different stages of age of man is the same. There shall be young people, middle-aged, and old together. Or they shall be upon the stage of action. All together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation." According to Moses in Psalm 90 this last around 70 to 80 years. Now this being so, it is almost impossible that Jesus used the word generation in Matthew 24:36 in this sense for the things mentioned therein would take longer than a short generation in which all lived within.

But there is more weighted proof. Go through the Gospel's and see how Jesus ALWAYS used the word generation~it may surprise you. When used in the scriptures New or OT it for the most part ALWAYS is used to described a kind of person, NOT a period of time of men living upon the earth.
Quote
Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."
How is wise Solomon using the word generation? He is describing a kind of person, has not one thing to do with TIME. I have several other scriptures but enough for now.

If you stay with Jesus' context in Matthew 24,25, then THAT will drive the interpretation for us. Generation is used describing the many false prophets and their follower who Jesus said would say~"I'm Christ and they shall deceive many"! Confessing with the lips that Jesus is Christ proves little without exalting Christ as Lord and his word as the final authority in conduct and doctrine.
Quote
(God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).
Not sure just how simple it is, because there are some things hard to understand, yet it becomes more simple when we follow the Spirit's use of words and trust Him for our understanding.

Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.

[/quote]

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #62 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:42:11 »
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #63 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 14:04:32 »

The first resurrection:

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


That wasn't the "first resurrection" of Rev.20. Our Lord Jesus is still not sitting upon David's throne today (see Matt.25 about the sheep and goats). David's throne is an earthly throne. See also Gen.49:10.

Quote
also

Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


That passage in Romans 8 by Paul is about our spirit/soul condition, not our flesh. Our spirit with soul is mortal until we confess Christ Jesus and are baptized by The Holy Spirit becoming a "new creature". That's what that is about.

Quote
The Kingdom over which  Christ reigns is now:

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


What you are suggesting is that our Lord Jesus' Kingdom will NEVER... be on earth, which is a ludicrous idea that does not align with Scripture of His return, like Zech.14 for one of many examples in both the Old Testament Books and the New Testament Books. When our Lord Jesus said that during His 1st coming, He was speaking of this world time, like a world age. Truly, His Kingdom is not of this present world earth age; it is of the world to come, and it will manifest on earth then.


Quote
Christ is reigning now:

Eph 1:18  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22  And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


See also Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14; Acts 2:32-36; Heb 10:12-13.

But you missed 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 which I put in a previous post about this matter. It is about His future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 when ALL... the wicked will be subdued literally under Him. Do we see that today? Of course not. Even in the Heavenly, our Lord Jesus is still not sitting upon the throne of His glory, which is David's throne, because that throne is not in Heaven; it's on earth. But is Jesus ruling over us, His Church already? Definitely, which is specifically what that Eph.1:22 verse is declaring.

Quote
We are reigning with Christ now:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


That passage does not say we are ruling over the wicked on earth today. Your theory is misaligned with what the Scripture is actually saying.

Quote
A basic problem you have is that you like the observant Jew today are waiting for an earthly kingdom which is not going to happen and was never intended to be.  Christ's kingdom is the spiritual kingdom and it is a spiritual reality now.  And we are reigning with Him now.

Crazy comparison. So the 1st century Church fathers were like unbelieving Jews waiting on an earthly kingdom eh? because that's who I align with about these things. What's even more amazing is how you miss completely that your doctrine is preaching an already established 'earthly kingdom' for today!

Christ's coming kingdom will be an earthly kingdom, even forever, with the new heavens and a new earth timing. He and The Father is our King, and there will... be a Kingdom on earth, as written.

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #64 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 14:30:35 »
Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.
Been nice to you, and that does not work, so I reminded of what Paul said to the church at Corinth:
Quote
1st Corinthians 4:21~"What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
Coming to you in love and in the spirit of meekness does not work with you, at least not as of yet. Not so much because you do not see it the way I do, but the spirit in which you come back and gave your answers. My next post will not be so much with tenderness and meekness but I will be more forceful and direct. I have several pages of outline explaining Matthew 24 discourse, that will deal with the temple (and this generation) in the sense in which Jesus meant it and in the only sense that can be used post Christ's death and resurrection.
Quote
God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do.
You are just showing just how weak your position is by making such a silly statement as that. God did not consult with Webster on the common use of words when he gave the holy scriptures in the manner in which he gave them. The spiritual meaning DOES NOT have to agree with the common use of any word! Snakes belong to the animal class reptiles that goes on his belly, or it could refer to a spirit or even a person with two legs! God has hidden truth by one of the means of defining his own words by comparing scriptures with scriptures, here a little, there a little, not by using the Greek, or going by the common use of a word, for the bible is NOT for the common man, but one that is spiritual alive in Jesus Christ. The common man can ONLY think by the mere sound of words and its common use. Not so with the spiritual minded person. Jesus spoke in parable and hard sayings, and some just do not make sense when one tries to understand them in their common use. Hundreds of examples could be provided~how many would it take to convince you otherwise?
Quote
John 6:54-56~"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Again:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
Jesus spoke many times in parable, proverbs and hard saying and sometimes in simple language that had hidden meaning behind it! Oh well, I will come back later and give you some points on Matthew 24 (much on the temple) to see if you have answers for~which I kinda doubt you will since I have dealt with many spirits over the years much stronger than you have shown me to be. As Arnold Schwarzenegger would say....hasta la vista baby!
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 18, 2017 - 04:02:53 by RB »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #65 on: Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 15:52:14 »
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.

Did you miss that post?

It was 19 minutes between responses. You green avatar light was on quite awhile after I posted. Your avatar name, dpr, was listed as a viewer in this thread well after I posted, so I did not think you did.

Did it make me mad? Absolutely not. Why would it? Most my relatives on my mother's side of the family are hardcore hyper-dispensationalist who think I'm a hell bound heretic because I don't get all tingly excited & panting for breath when Netanyahu or John Hagee is on TV . If anybody was going to make me mad it would be them & even they don't. They get mad at me. I've literally seen them pull their hair with their fingers while covering their ears with their palms, squinting their eyes closed while shrieking "No! No! No!". Because they could not stand my answers to the questions they asked. Then they storm out in practically in tears. Brother, if they don't make me mad, you sure won't.

As the post shows, you made a point that was contrary to these scriptures. I kinda thought you got mad or least frustrated. Figured that was why you stopped replying & eventually logged off.

You told me on April 28 that you would never accept anything else but a pre-millennial Biblical view. I believe you. But if you are going to espouse views that many sincerely believe is contrary to scripture don't get upset when they counter your talking points with scripture.

You brought up 2 Peter 3, which happens to be one of the clearest chapters in the Bible teaching against pre-mill.

Just two verses prior to Peter's clear teaching on the Day of the Lord, Peter clearly teaches 1000 years is signified "8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

How do you deal with these things other than just flat out reject it & move on like it does not exist by declaring "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth"?


Seriously, how do you get around Peter's clear teaching & not feel like you are misleading yourself?


Do you really believe Peter was just confused or wrong & you know better?


How about John?
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

Was John confused or wrong too & you know better?


I have to ask because you said "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth".

How are you right & the scriptures are wrong?
Tell me please.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #66 on: Sat Feb 18, 2017 - 21:39:00 »
Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.
Been nice to you, and that does not work, so I reminded of what Paul said to the church at Corinth:
Quote
1st Corinthians 4:21~"What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
Coming to you in love and in the spirit of meekness does not work with you, at least not as of yet. Not so much because you do not see it the way I do, but the spirit in which you come back and gave your answers. My next post will not be so much with tenderness and meekness but I will be more forceful and direct. I have several pages of outline explaining Matthew 24 discourse, that will deal with the temple (and this generation) in the sense in which Jesus meant it and in the only sense that can be used post Christ's death and resurrection.
Quote
God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do.
You are just showing just how weak your position is by making such a silly statement as that. God did not consult with Webster on the common use of words when he gave the holy scriptures in the manner in which he gave them. The spiritual meaning DOES NOT have to agree with the common use of any word! Snakes belong to the animal class reptiles that goes on his belly, or it could refer to a spirit or even a person with two legs! God has hidden truth by one of the means of defining his own words by comparing scriptures with scriptures, here a little, there a little, not by using the Greek, or going by the common use of a word, for the bible is NOT for the common man, but one that is spiritual alive in Jesus Christ. The common man can ONLY think by the mere sound of words and its common use. Not so with the spiritual minded person. Jesus spoke in parable and hard sayings, and some just do not make sense when one tries to understand them in their common use. Hundreds of examples could be provided~how many would it take to convince you otherwise?
Quote
John 6:54-56~"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Again:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
Jesus spoke many times in parable, proverbs and hard saying and sometimes in simple language that had hidden meaning behind it! Oh well, I will come back later and give you some points on Matthew 24 (much on the temple) to see if you have answers for~which I kinda doubt you will since I have dealt with many spirits over the years much stronger than you have shown me to be. As Arnold Schwarzenegger would say....hasta la vista baby!

Funny, you're acting like a little child now that just cannot get your way. I don't have time for childish attitude.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #67 on: Sat Feb 18, 2017 - 22:21:34 »
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.

Did you miss that post?

It was 19 minutes between responses. You green avatar light was on quite awhile after I posted. Your avatar name, dpr, was listed as a viewer in this thread well after I posted, so I did not think you did.

Did it make me mad? Absolutely not. Why would it? Most my relatives on my mother's side of the family are hardcore hyper-dispensationalist who think I'm a hell bound heretic because I don't get all tingly excited & panting for breath when Netanyahu or John Hagee is on TV . If anybody was going to make me mad it would be them & even they don't. They get mad at me. I've literally seen them pull their hair with their fingers while covering their ears with their palms, squinting their eyes closed while shrieking "No! No! No!". Because they could not stand my answers to the questions they asked. Then they storm out in practically in tears. Brother, if they don't make me mad, you sure won't.

As the post shows, you made a point that was contrary to these scriptures. I kinda thought you got mad or least frustrated. Figured that was why you stopped replying & eventually logged off.

No, the point I made was contrary to YOUR view, and not against God's Word. You simply need to look deeper in God's Word at all the examples of events taking place on earth after Christ's 2nd coming"

Zech 14:1
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
KJV

Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV


Just that reveals that Christ's future Kingdom involves this earth at His 2nd coming. And notice that is "day of the Lord" timing like 2 Peter 3:10 is.

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
KJV


In light of that, it's wrong to think God is going to literally destroy the whole earth on the "day of the Lord".

Even in 2 Pet.3:10 with the KJV word "elements", it does NOT mean the earthly elements. The Greek word means a sequential order or time, like a world age. Man's works of this world, just like during Noah's day, will be destroyed...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV


What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth.


Quote
You told me on April 28 that you would never accept anything else but a pre-millennial Biblical view. I believe you. But if you are going to espouse views that many sincerely believe is contrary to scripture don't get upset when they counter your talking points with scripture.

Does it sound like I'm the one that's upset?? That's funny if you think I am. I expressed what Scripture shows as written, that's all I did. If God's Word agree with you all's Preterist doctrines then I would be agreeing with you, but obviously that is not the case.


Quote
You brought up 2 Peter 3, which happens to be one of the clearest chapters in the Bible teaching against pre-mill.

Just two verses prior to Peter's clear teaching on the Day of the Lord, Peter clearly teaches 1000 years is signified "8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

How do you deal with these things other than just flat out reject it & move on like it does not exist by declaring "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth"?


Seriously, how do you get around Peter's clear teaching & not feel like you are misleading yourself?


Do you really believe Peter was just confused or wrong & you know better?

One would first... have to understand what it was that Peter was teaching in 2 Peter 3. Peter was teaching about three world earth ages, 1) the world that then was, 2) the heavens and the earth which are now, and 3) the new heavens and a new earth.

The destruction event of 2 Peter 3:10 is set for the END OF THIS PRESENT WORLD on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. That just so happens to be the same day which the "day of Christ" of 2 Thess.2 begins.

You do... remember that mention of "day of Christ" by Paul in 2 Thess.2 don't you? That was included with the events of Christ's 2nd coming and His gathering of the Church. Did you not know that "day of Christ" phrase in the Greek is actually "day of the Lord"? The word for "Christ" is not Greek Christos, it is Greek kurios which means 'lord' in the Greek. Paul was pointing directly to the "day of the Lord" for the time of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of the Church in 2 Thess.2.


The "day of the Lord" timing is NOT... the new heavens and a new earth timing.
The new heavens and a new earth timing is after... the future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 by Christ Jesus having returned and reigning on earth with His elect priests and kings. The wicked will not see... the future new heavens and a new earth. They will not be there. It is for the saved only.

So what the problem is, is with your doctrine's wrong interpretation of the timing of 2 Pet.3:10. That Zechariah 14 example above I showed makes that obvious about your doctrine's wrong understanding of the "day of the Lord" event.


Where does Christ's elect reign when He returns? On the earth:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV


That's Christ's Church when He returns. Is that really... happening today on earth like it is supposed to? Of course not, not yet.

There's many Scripture references to this fact of the earth still existing and involved in Christ's future Kingdom that to deny those Scriptures by saying something like they are already history, or are happening now, when our Lord Jesus has not yet returned, doing that shows being spiritually drunken on a doctrine of men instead of heeding God's Word as written.



Quote
How about John?
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

Was John confused or wrong too & you know better?

I have to ask because you said "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth".

How are you right & the scriptures are wrong?
Tell me please.

[/quote]

It is really I... that should be asking you... that question, because the Rev.21 events don't occur until AFTER the Rev.20 events of Christ's future 1,000 years reign and God's Great White Throne Judgment!

REMEMBER THE 1 CORINTHIANS 15:23-28 SCRIPTURE. (There, I put that in bold so you will remember that is something Paul gave us so we'd understand why Christ's future reign on earth is necessary before the new heavens and a new earth will come.

What you are suggesting, which is terribly un-Scriptural, is that with Christ's 2nd coming the timing jumps right to the new heavens and a new earth events, when God's Word does not show that!





Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #68 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:01:42 »
The reason you & so many are stuck on Revelation 20:2-3 is because of refusal to admit it is signified.

I really do not know why anyone would, as The book tells you it is signified in the very first verse.

Premillenialism lives or dies on those three verses.
To believe Premillenialism one has to believe, out of 31,201 verses, that do not imply any form of premillenialism, that these three signified verses are not signified, but completely literal.

Since the premill view says these three verses must be completely literal & not signified let's look at them.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalization of these verse means
1. There is a literal physical key to bind him with no mention of a physical lock. Not symbolic, not signified.
2. There is a literal physical pit on this earth that is so deep it has no physical bottom. Not symbolic, not signified.
3. There is a literal physical massive chain Satan will be dangling by in the literal physical bottomless pit on this earth. Not symbolic, not signified.
3. That Satan is a literal dragon & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.
4.  That Satan is also a literal serpent & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

In other words Satan is a literal dragon & a literal serpent at the same time, dangling from a massive chain, in an impossibly deep pit, with a wax seal on his head.

Also one must believe the symbolism means Satan is completely powerless since it is literal thus is limits are far greater than what this signified verse says " that he should deceive the nations no more"

Is that what you believe? This is completely literal, not symbolic, not signified?

To believe that; the first thing one has to do is reject the instructions in verse 1 of the Book of Revelation. 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The entire book is signified with symbolism & metaphor, but when we get to these three verse they are completely literal.

 ::pondering::
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 08:57:17 by TonkaTim »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #69 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:51:12 »
You point to Hebrews 12, I'm more than happy to look at that too. Especially since you started at verse 25 completely skipping the inconvenient part about the Heavenly Jerusalem. So lets discuss that with the entire section of scripture.



It starts by clearly showing we are not to be looking for an earthly place or reign. That is past. That was done under the law of Moses:
"18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)"

Instead that we are to be looking for a heavenly kingdom & reward:
"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Nothing about a earthly kingdom here.

Now lets move on to the remaining verses & bring it full circle with the full context of the scripture.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

You said "What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth."

With that answer to your question have to completely ignore the previous verse " 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

"once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven"

Did you also not notice this is signified in verse 27 too? "signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken" (Understanding what is signified is important)

The answer to your question is contained in verse 28 "we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved"

Which kingdom is that? I can only guess that is why you skipped over the very important previous verses;

"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

This! This is the 'unshakable', this is the "kingdom which cannot be moved",
" 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

Only "those things which cannot be shaken may remain" Paul is in perfect agreement with Peter here. He is saying the exact same thing Peter explains in 2 Peter 3.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:  29 For our God is a consuming fire.


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Hebrews 12 is the second clearest scriptures teaching against premillenialism right behind & in perfect agreement with 2 Peter 3