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Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #70 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:58:56 »
The reason I have not moved on to Zechariah 14 is because it has to be understood with the Light of Christ.

If one can not understand the clear teachings in the Light of the New Testament, one definitely will not understand the shadows of the Old. But once one understands the New the Old becomes much clearer. It then becomes obvious that Zechariah 14 is actually in agreement with Peter & Paul in Hebrews 12 & 2 Peter 3.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 08:16:50 by TonkaTim »

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #70 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:58:56 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #71 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 13:55:11 »
The reason you & so many are stuck on Revelation 20:2-3 is because of refusal to admit it is signified.

Your supposition does not disprove the position of Rev.20 in the flow of Revelation, which flow is Christ's 2nd coming and the start of Rev.20, and then God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1,000 years, and then God's Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth. That's the actual Scripture flow there, but there are cross-relative verses between Rev.20 & 22 also.

Rev.22:14-15 is actually Millennial timing and fits during the Rev.20 1,000 years period. It is showing the existence of the holy city, tree of life, and the wicked outside its gates, all at the same time. So how do you account for that if there is no Millennium reign by Christ over the wicked prior their destruction in the lake of fire? How do you account for Rev.3:9?

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I really do not know why anyone would, as The book tells you it is signified in the very first verse.

Premillenialism lives or dies on those three verses.
To believe Premillenialism one has to believe, out of 31,201 verses, that do not imply any form of premillenialism, that these three signified verses are not signified, but completely literal.

No friend, you cannot set some theory on what premill lives or dies on. That's just a statement that tries to persuade there is no other argument.

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Since the premill view says these three verses must be completely literal & not signified let's look at them.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalization of these verse means
1. There is a literal physical key to bind him with no mention of a physical lock. Not symbolic, not signified.


Sorry, I have to kind of laugh at that supposition, because it doesn't affect the actual Scripture one way or the other, because Satan being cast into his pit prison at the start of Christ's 1,000 years reign in Rev.20 is simply about the same heavenly prison of Isaiah 42:7 and 1 Peter 3:19 which Jesus at His resurrection went to and preached The Gospel, and led those who believed out of that prison house. I'm surprised you are not aware of the existence of that prison house in the heavenly dimension. So is it a literal... pit prison house? you bet it is. And that's actually where Satan will be locked in chains during that 1,000 years of Rev.20.


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2. There is a literal physical pit on this earth that is so deep it has no physical bottom. Not symbolic, not signified.

I have to laugh again, sorry. There's no rambling in Scripture about how deep that bottomless pit in the heavenly is. Some brethren actually believe it is in the center of the earth, literally. It's simply a place of separation in the heavenly dimension, and that's all. It's Satan's abode in the heavenly. Arguments about how deep it is are meaningless. Bottomless is simply an expression to show it has plenty... of room to house the wicked, unlike the limited amount of space a lot of earthly prisons have.

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3. There is a literal physical massive chain Satan will be dangling by in the literal physical bottomless pit on this earth. Not symbolic, not signified.

So... are you making this stuff up? I believe in a premill 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus and I've never heard this stuff before.

I see that 'chain' idea as a expression for Satan being literally locked in his pit prison when Jesus returns. Enough said.

But amill believes there is no 1,000, and scraps even the very Scripture (Rev.20) which shows Satan's destruction into the future "lake of fire". So amill believes Satan is NEVER destroyed. This is a very valid statement about the amill position, because if Rev.20 is not for the time immediately after Christ's 2nd coming and prior to the new heavens and a new earth, then it literally means Satan is left loose and never punished, his sentence never actually carried out. That's what happens when amill tries to omit the events and timing of the Rev.20 chapter.

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3. That Satan is a literal dragon & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

You're just dreaming this stuff up. God's Word tells us Satan is a 'cherub', a heavenly being (Ezek.28). God created him perfect in his ways until he rebelled against Him. Dragon and serpent are just two of Satan's many titles.

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4.  That Satan is also a literal serpent & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

Covered that false supposition already above.


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In other words Satan is a literal dragon & a literal serpent at the same time, dangling from a massive chain, in an impossibly deep pit, with a wax seal on his head.

Funny!


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Also one must believe the symbolism means Satan is completely powerless since it is literal thus is limits are far greater than what this signified verse says " that he should deceive the nations no more"

I would be very... careful with those above kind of words, because you're not really mocking me nor those who believe Rev.20 as written about Christ's future 1,000 years reign. You are mocking our Heavenly Father with that, because He showed us in Scripture like Job and Isaiah that He controls what Satan can and cannot do. He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. So you better believe God has power to lock Satan into his pit prison for that 1,000 years declared in Rev.20. God has the power to lock the kings of the earth in that pit with... Satan during that time too (as per the Book of Isaiah. Might want to read it sometime).

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Is that what you believe? This is completely literal, not symbolic, not signified?

Is Satan being locked in his pit prison during the 1,000 years like Rev.20 shows literal? Yes, it is. Will there be some literal lock and chain put on him in that pit? Could be, we'll have to wait and see if it happens exactly like those verses show. The main point of those verses though, is that we 'know', at that time of Christ's 2nd coming, Satan is going to then be literally bound in his pit prison. And he will be loosed out of it after the 1,000 years:

Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV



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To believe that; the first thing one has to do is reject the instructions in verse 1 of the Book of Revelation. 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The entire book is signified with symbolism & metaphor, but when we get to these three verse they are completely literal.

 ::pondering::

I have always considered it silly to try and base a whole end time doctrine about the end of days on simple phrases like "last days", "shortly come to pass", etc. You can't receive anything about the order of events laid out in Revelation with that, and thus it does not point even where to begin. It is an 'expression' for 'soon', and that's it. How soon? Who knows?!

Only God knows! What we are supposed to be doing, which Christ Jesus commanded us, is to be watching. And Apostle Paul showed we need to understand the times and the seasons of Christ's 2nd coming (1 Thess.5).

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #71 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 13:55:11 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #72 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:25:20 »
You point to Hebrews 12, I'm more than happy to look at that too. Especially since you started at verse 25 completely skipping the inconvenient part about the Heavenly Jerusalem. So lets discuss that with the entire section of scripture.

I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first. What about that Scripture, which is a "day of the Lord" event? It appears you are wanting to omit that Scripture from our discussion.


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It starts by clearly showing we are not to be looking for an earthly place or reign. That is past. That was done under the law of Moses:
"18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)"

Instead that we are to be looking for a heavenly kingdom & reward:
"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Nothing about a earthly kingdom here.

I really wish you understood more of the Scriptures. What type... of body is the resurrection body, do you think? Paul showed us it is a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the "image of the heavenly". He also said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in that 1 Cor.15 chapter. So what about the three men of Genesis 18, one of them being our Lord back in OT time? that appeared as 'men', and ate what Abraham prepared for them. Two of them went to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah to bring him and his out. The sodomites saw them as men and wanted Lot to bring them outside so they could Biblically 'know' them. And, they ate earthly food which Lot prepared for them. The Israelites in the wilderness ate manna, food that dropped down from Heaven. There were sightings of angels on earth throughout God's Word. So how can that happen... on earth? How is it the angels can eat our earthly food?

That is where many brethren are lacking in their Bible study, and instead have just defaulted to men's doctrines. The Biblical position is that the spiritual body type is able to live and walk upon the earth. Even the Book of Job about Satan's answer to God reveals this. Many just don't understand that the Heavenly dimension is simply behind a veil. We cannot see it unless God allows us to (2 Kings 6 of what Elisha's servant saw).

On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that veil of the Heavenly is going to be removed, for everyone on earth. Not only will the saints still alive on earth be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" on that day of the Lord, but the wicked still on earth will be changed too (Isaiah 25). But like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, to have eternal life in Christ, one's body of corruption must be made into incorruption, and this mortal, meaning the soul, must put on immortality. The wicked will not have put on immortality at Christ's coming. They will still be liable to perish in the lake of fire after His coming. But we all... will be in bodies of incorruption, i.e., the "spiritual body" which Paul taught is the resurrection body.


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Now lets move on to the remaining verses & bring it full circle with the full context of the scripture.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

You said "What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth."

With that answer to your question have to completely ignore the previous verse " 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

"once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven"

Did you also not notice this is signified in verse 27 too? "signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken" (Understanding what is signified is important)

The answer to your question is contained in verse 28 "we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved"

Which kingdom is that? I can only guess that is why you skipped over the very important previous verses;

"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

This! This is the 'unshakable', this is the "kingdom which cannot be moved",
" 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

Only "those things which cannot be shaken may remain" Paul is in perfect agreement with Peter here. He is saying the exact same thing Peter explains in 2 Peter 3.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:  29 For our God is a consuming fire.


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Hebrews 12 is the second clearest scriptures teaching against premillenialism right behind & in perfect agreement with 2 Peter 3

And you missed the Biblical fact that the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth! The earthly and the heavenly dimensions are going to be put together, again. Or did you miss the fact of Gen.2 about God's River in His Garden of Eden was once upon this old earth? God's River in Gen.2 flowed out of His Garden and fed four other rivers upon the earth, TWO of them which still exist today on earth!

That is why God is not only going to shake the earth, again, but heaven also! The Heavenly is coming HERE! And you haven't a clue of it, how sad.

(And when... did He first shake the earth, anyway?) If you are not aware of that, then that's why you wouldn't be aware of what I just said either.

« Last Edit: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:29:39 by dpr »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #73 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:53:27 »
The reason I have not moved on to Zechariah 14 is because it has to be understood with the Light of Christ.

If one can not understand the clear teachings in the Light of the New Testament, one definitely will not understand the shadows of the Old. But once one understands the New the Old becomes much clearer. It then becomes obvious that Zechariah 14 is actually in agreement with Peter & Paul in Hebrews 12 & 2 Peter 3.

Sounds like a cop out to me. The Zechariah 14 scripture is easy to understand for anyone who has studied all their Bible. And I thought that was... our level of understanding already here? I've studied all of God's Word, haven't you?

So far, your supposition on Hebrews 12 definitely does NOT... align with Zecharian 14, nor 2 Peter 3. I mean, there are other NT Scriptures than 2 Pet.3 that say nothing of a 1,000 year Millennium prior to God's final judgment, but that doesn't mean there is no Millennium, especially when Rev.20, Zech.14, and Ezek.40-47 give finite details of it. (2 Pet.3 does actually 'hint' to the Millennium).

But in reality as written, 2 Pet.3 DOES... reveal the future 1,000 year Millennium period...

2 Peter 3:7-8
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV


The heavens and the earth which are now are reserved unto fire against what... events? - against the day of JUDGMENT AND PERIDITION of ungodly men.

So what day... is that when Satan and the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire" per Rev.20? Peter is outlining that Rev.20 event right here!!! It is when the wicked perish, is when the day of God's Judgement is.

Notice what Peter says next in conjunction with that 'day'...

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

THERE is the 1,000 years of Rev.20. And the reason for that period Peter even explained, being in the next verse...

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


The "day of the Lord" is the beginning... of Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth over all, including the wicked, even the wicked dead of the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

That also is the "day of Christ" which Apostle Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2 linked with the day of Christ's return and gathering of His Church. The phrase Paul actually said there was "day of the Lord" per the actual Greek word kurios. You never commented on that point.

The OT prophets also had much to say about the "day of the Lord" events. That is what both Apostles Paul and Peter were preaching from about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night".

So Zechariah 14, which begins with mention of the "day of the Lord" timing, should not be some kind of big Bible mystery like your trying... to make it. Usually those who try to turn Scriptures into some huge mystery it means they've got an agenda from men and doctrines of men to push instead of heeding the simplicity of the scripture as written.

The Zech.14 timing is the day of Christ's 2nd coming, which is the "day of the Lord" according to Paul and Peter and Christ (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15). His reign over all the earth is declared there, and even survivors of those nations that came up against Israel on the last day of this world being made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING (Jesus Christ), or no rains would be upon their lands. That is a direct parallel to the Millennium events of Rev.20, and the waters flowing out of Jerusalem spoken of is a direct reference to God's River in Ezekiel 47 and Revelation.


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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #73 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:53:27 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #74 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:00:56 »
.....
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:03:13 by TonkaTim »

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #74 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:00:56 »



Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #75 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:01:10 »
Funny, you're acting like a little child now that just cannot get your way. I don't have time for childish attitude.
Just got back from out of town, and see that you been busy, good, do not go anywhere I'll be here tomorrow morning the Lord willing.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #76 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:03:17 »
I'm not retired, so you guys shouldn't think that I'm ignoring you just because I may not respond after a day or two.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #77 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:03:26 »
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

And you can rationalize away scripture to mean anything you want it to.

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #78 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:05:11 »
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #79 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:11:08 »
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah

Part of it is. The children of God now present on this earth who reign now with Christ. But the full revealing is in the new heaven & new earth at the last day when it is said "Behold, I make all things new."

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #80 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:22:06 »
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah

Part of it is. The children of God now present on this earth who reign now with Christ. But the full revealing is in the new heaven & new earth at the last day when it is said "Behold, I make all things new."

Right now, David's throne is still here on earth, where it will remain. Christ's enemies have tried to destroy it ever since it was re-established again after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and Zedekiah's son heirs. With the establishing of that throne eventually came the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It and The Gospel, are tied together in Christ, forevermore.

As per Genesis 49:10, one of the house of David of the tribe of Judah as God promised, still sits upon that throne today. It is an earthly throne. It is reserved for our Lord Jesus when He returns to this earth where He ascended to Heaven from (Acts 1; Zech.14). This is how Christ's Kingdom is going to be here, on earth, at His coming.

In 1 Thess.4, Apostle Paul showed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, He gathers the "asleep" saints in heaven that He brings with Him. On His descent to this earth, He gathers the remaining saints still alive on earth with them. So there are two groups of saints He gathers from two different locations on that day. With neither one of them does He turn around and go back into Heaven with them. Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 finish describing the 'destination' of His descent to this earth at His coming. It is to Jerusalem on earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #81 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:26:53 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.


Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #82 on: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:45:02 »
I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first.
I thought it might be helpful to provide some additional scriptures to demonstrate that the prophecy in Zech. has indeed been fulfilled already and is intimately related to the spiritual restoration of the Israel of God (Jews and Gentiles together as one body in Christ).  There are a lot of different aspects to this prophecy so I will try to deal with the major ones in separate threads instead of putting them all together in one.  The first thing that we must understand is that Zech. 14 is a continuation of the previous two chapters,  (much like Matthew 24,25 is ONE continuously discourse) so it is necessary to read 12-14 all together to get the full context of the prophecy.  The following passages from each of these three chapters let us know without a doubt what time period is in view for the entire prophecy:
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Zechariah 12:10~"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
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Zechariah 13:1,2~"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."
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Zechariah 14:8,9~"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
All three of these passages are talking about~ the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  And the spiritual pictures that God paints for us all throughout His word to demonstrate this are absolutely amazing.
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Exodus 17:5,6~"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel."
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1st Corinthians 10:1-4~"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
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John 10:4~Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
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John 4:14~"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
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John 7:37-39~"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified."
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Luke 24:25-27~"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
Christ is the rock that had to be smitten so that the living water could flow.  The living water is the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the day of Pentecost.  Notice that John 7:39 says that "the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified".  Jesus had to be glorified (the rock had to be smitten) in order for the Holy Spirit to be given (the living water begins to flow).  This happened at the crossThis is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" poured upon the house of David in Zechariah 12:10; this is the "fountain opened to the house of David" in Zechariah 13:1; this is the "living waters" flowing out from Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:8 (Jerusalem represents Christ); and this is the "washing of regeneration" that took away the sins and iniquity of the Israel of God.  As it is written:
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Titus 3:4-7~"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
This is why the first two verses of Zech. 13 speak of the fountain being "for sin and for uncleanness" and also of the idols being cut off from the land.  This speaks of the purification of God's people who are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and the washing of water through the Holy Spirit.
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Hebrews 10:19-22~"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
This entire prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago at the crucifixion of Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which followed.  What about when Zechariah 12:10 says "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him"?  Many people say that this hasn't been fulfilled yet, and that it is unmistakably a still future event.  What does God say?
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John 19:33-37~
"But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
I will believe God over a confused millennialist. God says that it was fulfilled at the cross. Let God be true, but every man a liar! What about the one Lord over all the earth in Zechariah 14:9?
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Ephesians 4:4-6~There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

« Last Edit: Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 16:03:56 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #83 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 04:32:55 »
Now that we have seen the significance of the living water and what it represents, I would like to take a closer look at how this living water relates to the restoration of Israel.
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Zechariah 14:8~ "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be
What is the significance of these living waters (the Holy Spirit) going out to the "former sea…and the hinder sea”?  First of all, we need to find out how God defines the sea in spiritual terms.
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Isaiah 57:20,21~But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
Again:
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James 1:5-8~If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
And again:
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Jude 1:4,12 and 13~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
There are are more to shut the mouths of gainsayers:
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Daniel 7:1-3~"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another."
I have I leaned that one cannot give too many, so here's more:
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Revelation 13:1~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
I could give many more examples, but this should be sufficient.  It is very clear that God uses the sea to typify the wicked people of the world who are under Satan’s control.  So, what does it mean when we see the living waters flowing into the former sea and the hinder sea?  This passage from Ezekiel 47 should explain:
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Ezekiel 47:1-12~"Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."
Chapter 47 of Ezekiel is one of the most glorious spiritual pictures of God’s plan of salvation in all of scripture, and it further confirms the fact that the passages in these last 9 chapters of Ezekiel are not to be taken literally, but are indeed very spiritual in nature.  The house (the temple described in the previous chapters) that Ezekiel sees with the river of water issuing out of it and flowing into the desert and the sea, healing the waters of the sea and bringing life to the fish of the sea, is an incredible spiritual picture of Christ (the true temple of God), the rock that had to be smitten so that the living waters (the Holy Spirit) could flow into all of the dead and barren places of the world, bringing life.  It is the same picture that we see in Zechariah 14:8 of the living waters going out of Jerusalem into the former sea and the hinder sea.  Notice that Ezekiel 47 speaks of these healing waters bringing life to the fish of the sea, and fishermen standing on the banks of the river to draw this great multitude of fish out of the great sea (which again symbolizes the wicked people of the world) (Matthew 13:47-49!).  Jesus Christ Himself lets us know that this passage is a spiritual picture when He calls His disciples and tells them that He will make them fishers of men.
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Mark 1:16-18~"Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him."
Again:
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John 21:1-6~"After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself. There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No. And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes."
Thus indicating that it is only by the power and presence of Christ that we, his followers, can draw men out of this wicked world, the kingdom of Satan (symbolized by the sea).  I will show two more passages of scripture to complete the picture:
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Revelation 21:1~"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Is John saying that there is no water in the new heaven and new earth? Absolutely not!  He is saying there is no more wickedness. If we stay with the scriptures and God's overall use of it symbolizing the wicked.
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Revelation 22:1,2~"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
Does this sound familiar?  It should.  Read Ezekiel 47 again, and compare Revelation 22:2 with Ezekiel 47:12.  Just as I said before, these passages are not to be understood in a literal sense.  They are spiritual pictures describing the cleansing and purification from sin that is brought about by the Holy Spirit emanating from Jesus Christ.  So, I ask the question again~why the former sea and the hinder sea?  The answer is simple.  It is the same reason that Hosea spoke of the joining of Judah and Israel.
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Hosea 1:9-11~"Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."
Again:
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Hosea 2:21-23~"And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
Hosea again said:
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Hosea 3:4,5~"For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."
Paul said:
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Romans 9:22-26~"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
Verses 25 & 26 of Romans chapter 9 take the prophecies from Hosea 1 & 2 (which seemingly spoke about the literal nation of Israel~but Paul reveals to us that Hosea was speaking about Jews AND Gentiles coming together AS ONE Israel of God), quote them word for word, and then tells us that this was speaking about the Gentiles.  Please pay careful attention to what is happening here.  This is not my interpretation of these passages.  This is what God has plainly declared in His word.  God applies a spiritual interpretation to these words that He inspired His prophet Hosea to write, indicating to us that the prophecy is ultimately fulfilled by the Gentiles coming into Christ along with the remnant of Jews. In this prophecy in Hosea (and others like it in the OT), Judah (the southern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from the nation of Israel, and Israel (the northern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from all of the Gentile nations.  You have to understand that God does everything for a reason.  There is nothing arbitrary or insignificant about His inspired word or His providential control of history.  When He split the kingdom in two, He began to use this event to speak symbolically about the two types of people that He has in this world, those from the Jewish nation, and those from the Gentile nations.  This is what the kingdoms of Judah and Israel symbolized - the Jews and the Gentiles. The language that we see in the OT about re-gathering the dispersed of the northern kingdom of Israel ultimately has its fulfillment in the NT church age with the remnant of the Gentile nations being brought into the body of Christ along with the remnant of the Jewish nation to form the Church.  God's people are now one, with one shepherd and King over them, the Lord Jesus Christ (referred to as "David their king" in Hosea 3:5).  Ezekiel speaks of the exact same idea when he prophecies of the joining of the two sticks. This is the great mystery hidden from the Jews in Jesus' days and still even now in our own days the veil is still there with many.
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Ezekiel 37:16,17...20-24~"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand........And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."
And once more, Jesus Christ Himself assures us of the spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy:
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John 10:14-16~"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Here is the fulfillment of the prophecy~ one fold (Jew and Gentile together) with one shepherd over them, "David their king", the Lord Jesus Christ.  The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace, cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God from their fall in Adam..., all those chosen from the foundation of the world (Jew and Gentile alike). I hope you can see that all of the prophecies that we have looked at so far were fulfilled in Jesus Christ at the cross, and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that followed.

This is why Zechariah 14:8 refers to the former sea and the hinder sea.  It is a reference to the Jews and Gentiles who were both cleansed and brought to life by the Holy Spirit, forming one, unified Israel of God~the body of Christ.  This is the TRUE restoration of Israel.  It has absolutely nothing to do with that nation in the Middle East which has been in continuous rebellion against God for the last 2000 years.  It has everything to do with the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham that all nations of the earth would be blessed through his seed (Jesus Christ)~the promise of the Holy Spirit.  All of God's children say amen and amen!

I apologize for the length of this post.  I will try to keep them shorter from now on.  I just wanted to make sure that no one has any doubts about the truth of the restoration of the TRUE Israel of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 07:27:30 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #84 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 04:54:06 »
::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

That was excellent RB.

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #85 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 08:00:31 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.


Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.
Not only is God revealing of another place, but he also is revealing who the true Israel of God are~
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1st Chron. 17:9~"Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,"
It's the generation of "the righteous" they are the true children of the Israel of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 08:03:26 by RB »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #86 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 08:03:25 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.


Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.
Not only is God revealing of another place, but he also is revealing who the true Israel of God are~
Quote
1st Chron. 10:9~"Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,"
It's the generation of "the righteous" they are the true children of the Israel of God.
Absolutely!!

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #87 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:20:50 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #88 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:25:32 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #89 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:29:13 »
I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first.
I thought it might be helpful to provide some additional scriptures to demonstrate that the prophecy in Zech. has indeed been fulfilled already and is intimately related to the spiritual restoration of the Israel of God (Jews and Gentiles together as one body in Christ).  There are a lot of different aspects to this prophecy so I will try to deal with the major ones in separate threads instead of putting them all together in one.  The first thing that we must understand is that Zech. 14 is a continuation of the previous two chapters,  (much like Matthew 24,25 is ONE continuously discourse) so it is necessary to read 12-14 all together to get the full context of the prophecy. 
....

So this was fulfilled already huh?

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV


So you think the orthodox unbelieving Jews in the nation of Israel today represents God's restoration of Israel per these Zechariah chapters?

Sorry to say, that is a ludicrous idea. The orthodox Jews in the majority today STILL do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.



Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #90 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:44:31 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Oh, I don't agree you with at all on its 'location', for you no doubt think our Lord Jesus is already sitting upon David's throne in Heaven, when per God's Word He is actually sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne today. He is still yet to inherit the throne of David, for He must return here ON EARTH to do that, since David's throne is an EARTHLY throne, not a heavenly one.

Eph 1:20
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV

Eph 2:5-9
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV

Eph 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
KJV


For what you believe per Preterist doctrines of men to be true, then NONE of that above should point to any future fulfillment. It should be done already at Christ's 1st coming.

No one is yet... sitting with Christ in His throne, only the Promise exists today, it is yet to be fulfilled. Like Paul said in Ephesians, our spirit only is raised to sit in "heavenly places" with Christ. He did not say in Christ's throne with Him. The Rev.3:21 Scripture is still future for after Christ's 2nd coming.


Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #91 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:57:26 »
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.

Those doctrines of men are just as bad as the pre-trib rapture doctrines of Darby, et al. We are to rightly divide God's Word in study; arbitrarily assigning events that have yet to occur today into the past just so you can keep a doctrine of men is not how one rightly divides God's Word.

You Preterists here will make fine globalists, because that's obviously what Preterist doctrines are designed to lead the deceived into. It makes it easy to support man's forming of a "one world government" system and think that Messiah is now over it.

The reality though is... the orthodox Jews are still awaiting the coming of Messiah. They do not believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, so that should be easy to know that God still has a lot of work to do with them yet, that those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final.

The other reality today is that many in Christ's Church today are falling away like Paul warned in 2 Thess.2. The nation alignment of Ezek.38 that will come against Israel is almost complete today, and those against Christ through their political systems have made the house of David of none effect today, and even worse, has drafted some of the house of David through trickery into participating with the false globalist one world government movement.


Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #92 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:02:30 »
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.


Please do not make false accusations. RB & I both have been extremely clear we are not Preterists.

We both as well as others who have posted in this thread hold to the ancient Amillennial position that has been with the Church from the beginning. A position that is also orthodox reformed theology as it is the position of the Reformers & the Protestant Reformation.

Small | Large
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:06:38 by TonkaTim »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #93 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:27:49 »
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.


Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Just in case there may be misunderstanding, I'll clarify who that seed is. I cited Revelation 3 Now I will cite - Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Especially considering this statement:
There is prophecy even in the Book of Genesis specifically for the last days before Christ's 2nd coming. It's Genesis 49 where Jacob told his twelve sons to gather around and he would tell them what would befall them in the last days.

So statements like the majority of the Old Testament Books are old history reveals someone who really isn't studied. It's really a cop out showing laziness in The Word, and it's also how so many of men's traditions get started.

In the light of your statements let's look at the prophecy;



" The sceptre shall not depart from Judah ... until Shiloh come"

The sceptre signifying the Kingship which was fufilled in David per the Davidic covenant.

Now who is Shiloh?


As we can see it is a unique & special noun used only once in the entire Bible meaning "he whose it is" or better stated "to whom it rightfully belongs" signifying the Messiah, Jesus Christ

Well, Shiloh has come.
He holds the scepter & the staff.

He is the High Priest, the mediator of the New Covenant.
And most importantly He has claimed what is his. He is king.

Not only King, but King of kings & Lord of lords.

The reign of Jesus Christ is now & forever more.

"unto him shall the gathering of the people be"
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

And all God's children say 'Amen!'
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:47:11 by TonkaTim »

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #94 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 14:58:23 »
So you think the orthodox unbelieving Jews in the nation of Israel today represents God's restoration of Israel per these Zechariah chapters? Sorry to say, that is a ludicrous idea. The orthodox Jews in the majority today STILL do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.
I never said that~it's indeed pitiful and speaks very low of your understanding if that is what you gathered by reading my two posts. Show me how you came to that conclusion~it's beyond me that you did. You said:
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Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.
Again your comprehension of spiritual truth is much to be desired~and maybe you should re-think of entering into a debate with those who are able to defend the scriptures and their position~for you surely cannot as of yet. I despise Preterism for they stamp everything "FULFILLED 70 A.D.!" I'm an Amill "Idealist' according to those who understand the different schools of Eschatology~and you sir certainly do not if you think for one second that I'm a Preterist. Ask a Preterist who are so, if Red Baker is one, they would laugh at you. Personally, I think you are just using anything now to keep from defending your beliefs with us because you see the hand writing on the wall~so do as you like, no lost on my part.
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The reality though is... the orthodox Jews are still awaiting the coming of Messiah. They do not believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, so that should be easy to know that God still has a lot of work to do with them yet, that those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final.
Sir, I care little about what orthodox Jews believe or do not believe~it is men like you and the Pre-mill gang that are misleading them into thinking that Jesus Christ will sit upon a literal throne in a literal city of Jerusalem in the future!
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those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final
Those scriptures in truth are truly for the true Israel of God, not for the natural seed of Abraham~those are not the children of God's promises. Let Paul tell us:
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Romans 9:6-8~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
So clear!
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The other reality today is that many in Christ's Church today are falling away like Paul warned in 2 Thess.2. The nation alignment of Ezek.38 that will come against Israel is almost complete today
Agree concerning the falling away, yet you fail to understand that the great tribulation is spiritual in nature and is coming against the NT JERUSALEM, which is the professing church of the living God, NOT against a nation in the middle east that many believe is God's chosen people, but ARE NOT. Just as Jerusalem and Juda of old suffered great tribulation for their rejecting of God and corrupted his OT temple, even so, will the NT professing people of God DO LIKEWISE~ and instead of true worshippers filling the NT temple with true worshippers, it will be a place of abomination where the man of sin will sit and reign (the Joel Osteen's of the world, etc.)  that God WILL make desolate very soon. We who are in Judea must FLEE unto the mountains, (a place of safety from God's impending judgment) which I did many years ago when I left the professing churches in this world.
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those against Christ through their political systems have made the house of David of none effect today, and even worse, has drafted some of the house of David through trickery into participating with the false globalist one world government movement.
I have no idea what you are talking about since you are basing what you are saying of a false understanding of eschatology.
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 21, 2017 - 03:38:39 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #95 on: Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 15:05:17 »
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.
You should had been more honest and said:
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Sorry guys, I don't have the patience truth to continue these arguments

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #96 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 04:58:51 »

What About Zechariah 14?


Zechariah chapter 14 clearly connects the feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how living waters would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not saying that literally every believer in the world has to go to the middle east and visit Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works. There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, many look at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He is the Living water and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished. But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event. Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is not a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers. And it's not talking about a literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely because Christ has bound Satan, and delivered them from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths.  This is the manner in which God hides mysteries in his word.

God metaphorically calls His people Lamps, Branches, Fishermen, Olive Trees, Stones, etc. This is to show some characteristic or aspect of these things in them. So why should anyone be taken back when God metaphorically call His people them Jerusalem (The holy city) and Israel (the holy nation)? For in this Israel alone will saints "dwell in safely." These things have nothing to do with the literal land/nation Israel. It's a Covenant with an Israel far superior to any plot of land, genealogical line, or political nation. Christ confirmed a Covenant of Grace, not of race. And it's a Covenant securing an inheritance far more secure than any handful of dirt in the middle east. It's a kingdom that is far more precious and eternal than any worldly kingdom or reign on earth could ever be. It's the peace and security of a people who are dwelling with God. The nation of Israel was used as the type, and thus was a figure of this. Time will not allow us to give many proofs of this, but could if needed.
    
I was asked this week concerning these verses that are in Zechariah 14~so let us consider some.
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Zechariah 14:18~"And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."
Zechariah chapter 14 is a whole study in itself (too much to get into here), but briefly, this plague was the curse that came upon the children of Israel because of their rejection of Christ. They are spiritually the families of Egypt ( See Revelation 11:8) who remain in bondage, and if they do not come to Christ (come up to Jerusalem) to keep the feast of Tabernacles, they shall not receive the rain. In other words, those who fail to get to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of Tabernacles will have no rain. For from Jerusalem is the "only place" to find these living waters.

The Jews who rejected Christ were blinded (in part), and that is what Zechariah means when he declares that their eyes consume away in their holes. That is spiritual language denoting that they will lose their sight, or that they have "no eyes" with which to see. It's not a prophecy foretelling a time when people's eyes will "physically" disappear from their sockets, but it prophesies they will spiritually not have eyes. And indeed, I am amazed that so many theologians actually think that all of this is literal. So much so that they are incredulous that anyone would even suggest that God speaks metaphorically there. They react "as if" such an idea is foreign to the Bible, (it IS to them) when in fact it is "normative." Zechariah is a prophecy that the elect could be comforted because their warfare with God was accomplished, because Christ has brought peace and safety. This occurred at the cross.
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Zechariah 14:16~"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against JERUSALEM shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be, that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, even upon them Shall be No Rain."
Those who came up to warfare against Jerusalem were all the unsaved. This remnant who are left are those that was born of God. For them, their "warfare" accomplished or finished (Isaiah 40:2) because Christ has paid for their sins. The saved now spiritually go up to worship this King and keep the law of the feast of Tabernacles (a wonderful study of its own!). Christ is that King of kings and Lord of hosts that Zechariah says we annually go up to in the Holy City (as was the everlasting law required in Leviticus). For some theologians to actually think God would re-institute a "literal or physical" ceremonial Old Testament law that was fulfilled in the death of Christ, is quite a reckless eschatology. Saints from every nation (when we become saved) are coming up to the Holy City and keeping the feast of Tabernacles. They don't come up to a literal mountain in Israel, or an earthly city Jerusalem, or to a literal Temple made with hands. But in Christ they've come to a City whose builder and maker is God and wherein dwelleth righteousness.
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Hebrews 12:22-24~ "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
Praise be to God! This is the Holy City Jerusalem that the children of God have come unto, not a geographical location in the middle east. In this heavenly city we keep the feast of Tabernacles for ever, as required by law. We are tabernacling in Christ, who has brought fulfillment. The children of God are the families of the earth whom Zechariah says worship Him, and call Him king of all the earth. Being the true spiritual Israel of God, they are those who have been delivered from bondage, and are keeping the feast. The unbelievers (those not confirmed by the blood of the New Covenant with Israel) are the ones who do not come up to that Holy City and who do not keep the feast of Tabernacles. And the reason, of course, is that they are still spiritually children of Egypt who were not brought out of the land of bondage. They're still there. They don't serve this king of Kings, they serve their master in the house of bondage. And their servitude is slavery to sin (John 8:33-34). Their judgement for sin is that they shall have no rain.
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Isaiah 5:6-7~ "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry."
No rain is symbolism of the judgement of God upon Israel. And this is precisely what God did to Israel when He left their house desolate by His death on the cross.
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Micah 5:7~"And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men."
The remnant or
believers of Israel are those who will water the earth as the rain from God. Jesus Himself said, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters. i.e., they receive the rain of salvation and they go forth and teaching others as showers upon the grass. But Zechariah is fulfilled in that, "on these who won't come up to the Holy City, there shall be no rain." There will be no showers of Blessings, the cleansing rain, and no living waters which Christ poured upon all those who go up to worship the King.
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Psalms 68:9~"Thou O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst Confirm Thine inheritance, when it was weary."
The "Confirming of the Covenant" one week is with living waters rained down upon the saints. Those who don't keep the week of the feast of Tabernacles shall not receive this rain. They have no part in the confirmation of the inheritance accomplished by Christ, wherein there is the rain for the Children of God. Again, this is demonstrating that the Lord's people are those keeping the feast of Tabernacles in Christ. This is the week Daniel 9 said Messiah would confirm. It is the covenant week He strengthened in His own Blood at the cross (Gal. 3:17, Hebrews 9:17). It's the entire New Covenant period from Christ's feast of sowing in the field, to the end of world harvest and the gathering out of the field. It's from our deliverance from bondage, to our entrance into the promised land when we receive our inheritance.
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1st Peter 1:3-7~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
As we saw in Zechariah, it is in Christ that we greatly rejoice in keeping the feast of Tabernacles on our way to the promised inheritance. This is why we greatly rejoice and go up to the Holy City and keep the feast of Tabernacles. Tabernacles is the only feast that God gave specific instructions to His people to rejoice at. For we are as a city whose warfare is ended, and whose iniquity has been pardoned. A City made Holy by the descending of Christ to sanctify it and make it the Holy place. A City that dwells so safely and securely that the gates of Hell cannot ever prevail over it. For this is the Holy city that shall remain forever.

It is this deeper, fuller, spiritual significance of the feast of Tabernacles that so many theologians miss. It was never just designed to be a simple memorial celebration, but a prophecy that holds a very spiritual meaning of ingathering and of harvest. The prophet Zechariah makes that very clear when His words are compared with scripture and interpreted in "light" of scripture. When our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ came from heaven with living waters to be king, and to reign on the throne of David, He fulfilled Zechariah's prophecy of this.
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John 4:10,14~"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water............But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
That is the day that living waters went forth from Jerusalem. By His death and ascension to that throne, we are brought out of bondage, and God tabernacles with us in the wilderness of this world until the time we reach the promised inheritance.
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Zechariah 14:8-9~"And it shall be in that day that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. and the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one."
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Ephesians 4:5-6"One Lord and One faith, One baptism, One God and father of All, who is above all and through all, and in you all."
The Prophecy of one lord and one king, and in us all, is thus fulfilled. The day that living waters went out from Jerusalem has come in the Lord. It's not a future prophecy of keeping a feast of Tabernacles that would deny Christ has already come, but it's a fulfilled (completed) prophecy. He is the living water that went out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea, in summer and in winter. This is the beginning of the Messianic age because salvation goes forth in Christ to both Jew and Gentile, and in all seasons. Christ is the water whereby if any man shall drink, He shall have eternal life and never die. Nor shall he ever thirst again.

The feast of Tabernacles is spoken about in John chapter seven. The week of this feast in rejoicing because of God's deliverance ushers in the messianic age, followed by the eighth day (twenty-second of Tishri), which is the greatest day of the feast. This holy convocation (Leviticus 23:36) on the eighth day "signified" a new day, a new Sabbath day (Sunday) in which our works would end, old things are passed away and made new in Christ (Leviticus 23:35-36; 2nd Corinthians 5:17. etc. ). John tells us of this eighth day.
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John 7:37-42~"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"
The people there in Jerusalem said, "of a truth this is the Prophet." i.e., they thought that this must be the Messiah and the fulfillment of the prophecy of the beginning of the Messianic age. And they were right. When Christ stood in Jerusalem and offered the living water to anyone who would believe on Him, He was declaring on "the last day" of the feast of Tabernacles that he was fulfilling the prophecy of the tabernacle of David. The efficacy would come when the Holy Spirit is poured out at Pentecost, but Christ standing there offering those living waters fulfilled the prophecy. He was illustrating that Israel should look to Him for their salvation and deliverance. For that feast celebrated His body, the tabernacle of David that brought renewal or restoration, and instituted the start of the Messianic age in the millennial reign of Christ.

Note the correlation of the feast of Tabernacles to Christ coming to Jerusalem and declaring that He is the living water. Clearly, this tabernacle is where those living waters from Jerusalem would be found, and it's no coincidence that God says these things exactly on the eighth day of the feast of Tabernacles. There is a precise timetable in prophecy that has to be followed. And Christ is hereby illustrating that He is the fulfillment of that prophesy of living waters, He was that tabernacles fulfillment, and He was that true Sabbath of rest, wherein the 7th day Sabbath was merely a shadow pointing to Him.
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Colossians 2:16-17~"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
This is how the ceremonial celebrations were merely shadows, a dark "form" of the true, but the reality is found in the body of Christ. The festivals or feasts were teaching instruments until the Christ should come. But now we have the true in His body. And so to claim that this feast isn't fulfilled yet would mean we should return to observing the ceremonial, looking forward to His coming. That would be blatantly unbiblical. We must remember that the feast of Tabernacles was the institution of the ingathering, the culmination of the prophesies of Christ when the holy city would be the center of Christ's Kingdom on earth. It can only point to Christ, the center of the Kingdom and to whom all the nations of the world now come. Zechariah 14:16 talks of the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship the King, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles. We gentiles come to Jerusalem when we come to Christ.

God has always used feasts as figures, and instituted ceremonies to demonstrate Christ. When the nation of Israel journeyed in the wilderness from Egypt, God used the figure of a rock to demonstrate Christ. Israel received water from a Rock that was struck. In this, God was painting a spiritual picture that "metaphorically," Christ was that Rock, and it is He that brings was smitten to bring true waters forth for us (by His stripes we are Healed) that we may be sustained in the wilderness (desolate places).
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1st Corinthians 10:2-5~"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
The scriptures are replete with correlations between historical Israel and its journey in the wilderness to the promised land, and the Church, who is spiritual Israel, and theirs. The Rock from which water came after it was smitten, "signified" Christ. And so all the theologians who are objecting to God speaking spiritually or taking these scriptures metaphorically, as they are written, are not really hearing what they are reading in scripture. For these things are spiritually discerned. Things which are fulfilled in Christ.

So what manner of man will be siting and waiting for that which has already come? What man will be waiting for the fulfillment of that which has already been fulfilled? The Kingdom of God has come (as Jesus told the Priests and Pharisees), and thus Satan has been cast out by the power of God. The Millennial reign of Christ's kingdom has begun, and He has already set the captives free. Those who have been called and chosen of God have been translated from the power of darkness in Satan's domain, into this Kingdom of Christ. It's not done with smoke and mirrors, it's the unadulterated living Word of God.
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Colossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son."
Who then is looking for a coming reign of Christ and a righteous kingdom that has already come? Who is looking for a future King that we'll serve in this kingdom, when Christ has already established His kingdom and the elect already serve in it? Who is looking for a binding of Satan which "had" to be at the cross, or else none of us could have been set free (Matt. 12:28-29) from Satan. The fact is, the captivity of Israel has been delivered, Peace has come, Christ does have a kingdom, Israel is safe from her enemies, God has come down to dwell with men, and they do reign with Christ as kings and Priests unto their God. And if that is true, then Israel is keeping the feast of Tabernacles. The one week in the Covenant, which Daniel 9 said Messiah would confirm, is the New Covenant with Israel.

And the unavoidable fact is, Christ has no more feasts left to fulfill. He fulfilled all the feast days by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. He's not coming back to go to the cross a second time to make sacrifice for Tabernacles, therefore all feasts were fulfilled in His broken body. The historical ceremonies were everlasting laws "looking forward" to the true, which is Christ. So when He came as the antitype, the shadows passed away. He is the true tabernacle that the Olive branch tabernacles that sheltered the Children of Israel prefigured.

Knowing many of these things gives us a better insight into why God uses the phrase "The last day" in scripture only in connection with either the end of the World, or with the feast of Tabernacles (Nehemiah 8:18; John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54, 7:37, 11:24; 12:48). Nowhere else in scripture is that phrase ever used. With each spiritual puzzle piece we get a little better understanding of why God uses the feast of Tabernacles as the "end of year" harvest gathering our labors out of the field, and why Christ said in parables, the harvest "is" the end of the world. We can better understand why the resurrection is "the last day," and why the eighth day of the feast of Tabernacles God called "the last day, the great day of the feast." We can better understand why when Israel was freed from bondage, they had to spend time in the wilderness as strangers in tabernacles, their temporary homes before they could enter into their inheritance. It was a "type" of our walk in the wilderness in tabernacles before we come into our inheritance, and it was to take place one week. The Word of God is like a gigantic Spiritual picture puzzle and when you have it right, every piece fits perfectly. There are no pieces left over, nor are you missing any pieces, nor are there pieces that don't fit or conform to the picture. That's how you know that you have come to truth. When you have harmony and agreement and consistency throughout scripture. On the other hand, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. The Bible is its own interpreter. As Righteous Joseph said, "Do not interpretations belong to God?" indeed they do. Through faith in God's word, comparing scripture with scripture, we can come to receive what God has written and wants us to know. No wresting or twisting scripture is necessary, for the truth is in harmony with the Bible. The New Covenant period is our walk in tabernacles secured by the burnt sacrifice prefigured in Israel's ceremonial laws. It is only by careful study of the scriptures that we will come to the knowledge of these truths.

How about Ezekiel 40-48? literal or spiritual? What sayest thou? What does God's word support?
   
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 06:30:30 by RB »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #97 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 06:46:10 »
Excellent!!
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Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #98 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 12:36:01 »
As I said before, I don't have time to deal with foolish arguments from the Amill doctrines of men. Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism, which both have varying ludicrous ideas ranging from belief that our Lord's Revelation is already history, to full denial of a literal physical 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and future 1,000 years reign on earth which God's Word declares.

Only the Devil would want us to believe that our Lord Jesus is reigning over all nations and over all the earth right now from His abode in Heaven today. Christian persecution in the Christian west has increased just in my generation, with U.S. congressmen and senators that support Islamic radicalism right here in the U.S., refusing to declare Islamic terror acts on U.S. soil for what they are out of fear to ticking off groups like CAIR that support radical Islamic groups! Many believers are falling away from Christ in the traditional Christian west, and the U.S. just had a President (Obama) that lied to the American people about the Christian history of the United States, saying it has never been a Christian nation, even though in the early history of the White House Sunday Christian Church services were held, with oil paintings of such Church meetings still hang in the White House portico to prove it!!!

BEWARE OF THE BETH-AVENS:
Like Christ's Apostles warned, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing within Christ's Church. It began in Apostle Paul's days, and it has continued still today.

You will know the false churches, the beth-avens (houses of vanity), by what they preach. Is it The Word of God, or is it something else? Like Jesus said, His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD. If it was His servants would fight! (John 18:36). That means He is NOT reigning over this earth yet, not over all nations and peoples like His Word tells us in MANY, MANY, SCRIPTURES.


WHY DO THEY WRONGLY TEACH JESUS NOW REIGNS OVER THE EARTH?:
The false prophets came up with those ideas long ago, and it's reason is simple. Christ's Apostles, especially Paul, made certain spiritual statements about our Lord Jesus establishing His Church after His death and resurrection, and because The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected Jesus, and the western Christian nations sprang up miraculously with the majority in those nations accepting The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the early Church of the 2nd and later centuries begin to think our Lord Jesus and His Apostles meant His reign over the earth was 'then' and 'now'.

They do not just mean over the Church when they say Jesus is now reigning, but they imply with it Christ is reigning over all peoples and over all the earth too, which is a blatant falsehood, and does not align with God's Holy Writ. The promise of Christ's earthly reign is in effect, but the time for it's literal manifestation on earth over ALL nations and peoples is not yet, as God's Word shows. If you don't believe that then you would believe foolishness like Jesus has been and is the head ruler over Communism.

World Socialists have their Christian churches too. That is where you will mostly hear false Socialist propaganda like Jesus is now reigning over the earth (which would include Communist nations). Their program is 'World Socialism'. That is why they want Christ's servants to dump the idea of a future 1,000 year reign by our Lord Jesus after His physical return to this earth. With our Lord Jesus not de facto here on earth reigning, then they can cause you to believe that 'they', men, have been left in charge here, on earth! and that we need to listen to them! What was it our Lord Jesus did on the cross for us involving a literal priesthood that God's people were once required to go through? Jesus tore the veil in the holy place. He now is our ONLY Mediator to The Father in our behalf. Cease ye from men, our Heavenly Father said (Isaiah).

The fake mediators have been around ever since the old pagan mystery schools. They claimed sacred knowledge and required the petitioner to go through made up initiations with words of hidden meanings, and throughout their system the petitioner had to bow and follow the glorious... master. They made themselves into mediators between their gods and their pupils, controlling what knowledge their pupils would be allowed to have and use. Controlling the masses was their main purpose, while they themselves served the devil himself, with the ultimate aim to destroy the souls of men.

That is where the old ideas of 2nd century Amillennialism began which rejected God's Word about a future 1,000 years literal reign on earth by our Lord Jesus at His 2nd coming. The pagan mystery schools were a major system used in old Egypt by the Egyptian priests. The great Library of Alexandria, Egypt contained many works of the ancient pagan arcana, Alexandria having been a major center for pagan beliefs. Their old paganism was not abolished in Alexandria until under the edict of emperor Theodosius in AD 391.

Clement of Alexandria and Origen were Christians of the school at Alexandria, Egypt. They had some ideas from Greek philosophy in their beliefs, since Alexandria had such a strong past with paganism and the doctrines of men preserved from ancient times at the Library of Alexandria. Thus the Alexandrian School has more Gnostic style philosophical and allegorical leanings in their Bible teaching which leaves off much literal interpretation. The newer Bible translations are based on the Alexandrian texts for the New Testament, which are older than the Majority Texts which the KJV New Testament is based on, but not as many.

In contrast was the school at Antioch, where the first Christian Church began, and where the name Christian was first used, and their more literal interpretation of God's Word. These used the Majority Texts for the New Testament, which means just that, they make up the majority of ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, the most copies made and thus show a wider use than the Alexandrian texts. When the Alexandrian and Majority texts are compared, the Alexandrian texts are about 10 pages shorter. So there's some things left out of the Alexandrian texts.

Today, many Bible scholars favor the Alexandrian texts, and Gnosticism is popular again today (Da Vinci Code, etc., Brown's novels). Thus the tenets of Amillennialism from Clement and Origen and the Alexandria School have continued in some churches, especially those churches which like to align with ideals of world socialism. Some of those church socialists are pushing for a one-world government along with world Communism, both cooperating with each other (see Carrol Quigley's 1960's work Tragedy and Hope).

The early 1st century Church fathers, which I have mentioned before in my posts on this thread of how they were Millennialists, believing Rev.20 about Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth as literal, were not associated with the Alexandria School. This is why I said Amillennialism was a 'corruption' of the 2nd century A.D. that came later after the Apostles of Christ.


Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #99 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:28:10 »
As I said before, I don't have time to deal with foolish arguments from the Amill doctrines of men.  Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism.
Then sir, why are you here? That's not why you are not answering our post, you are only deceiving your own self and a few others maybe.
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Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism
By that statement, you are showing that you cannot divide properly the eschatologies schools of thoughts, which btw, yours falls into the premillennial camp much more so than I do with of the two you mentioned; and by the fact you did not mention the premillennialist, only proves that I'm correct.
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Historicism
Is indeed a "half-baked Preterist".
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which both have varying ludicrous ideas ranging from belief that our Lord's Revelation is already history
Only Preterism.
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to full denial of a literal physical 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Majority of Preterists but not all.
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future 1,000 years reign on earth which God's Word declares
Yes only the deluded Premillennialist, partial (like you) or full, which is the majority of them.
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Only the Devil would want us to believe that our Lord Jesus is reigning over all nations and over all the earth right now from His abode in Heaven today.
See, you do not fully understand. Jesus is reigning over the house of Jacob, or the elect, both Jews and Gentiles. God has NOT made all his enemies his footstool as of yet!
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1st Corinthians 15:20-28~But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Questions: When will the kingdom be delivered up to God? At the resurrection of the righteous, the last day.  Question: When will death itself be destroyed? At the resurrection of the righteous at the last trump and last day! Question: Was Jesus reigning according to Paul's teaching at the time of his writing to the church at Corinth?
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Christian persecution in the Christian west has increased just in my generation, with U.S. congressmen and senators that support Islamic radicalism right here in the U.S., refusing to declare Islamic terror acts on U.S. soil for what they are out of fear to ticking off groups like CAIR that support radical Islamic groups! Many believers are falling away from Christ in the traditional Christian west, and the U.S. just had a President (Obama) that lied to the American people about the Christian history of the United States, saying it has never been a Christian nation, even though in the early history of the White House Sunday Christian Church services were held, with oil paintings of such Church meetings still hang in the White House portico to prove it!!!
These are enemies that shall be destroyed in the lake of fire which IS the second death when DEATH and HELL are cast into the lake of fire to forever perish. You are terribly confused, and if you think you are not, then give scriptures and prove it ~which you gave none in your post above.
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You will know the false churches, the beth-avens (houses of vanity), by what they preach. Is it The Word of God, or is it something else? Like Jesus said, His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD. If it was His servants would fight! (John 18:36).
Again sir, you are confused. We know perfectly that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, for this world shall melt with fervent heat and shall be burned up and all the works therein shall be dissolved. The rest of your post is copied and pasted (which I have no problem with if it contains strong arguments from the scriptures) and proves not one one thing. Sir, what others believe after the apostles and down to us is really NOT the test of truth~the word of God alone is the sole basis from which a believer in Jesus Christ should learn what is truth and what is not the truth. 
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:30:55 by RB »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #100 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:47:32 »
dpr, I'm not going to throw shade on you or slander you because you believe in the Pre-mill position. I have not done that nor will I, like you are doing by implying all that you are implying in your first post today in this thread.

I believe you are my sincere brother in Christ. And because you are my brother I will go over scripture point by point with you for the sake of the Brethren who read these/our posts..


You & I both know that the Amill & the Pre-mill positions have been with the Church since the beginning. Way back then Amill was not considered by anyone a heresy nor ever has. It is why it has been the position of the Eastern church for about 2000 years. Like we said before it is original position of the Reformation. Even the Romanist get this one right. 

Justin Martyr who thought similar to you considered those who held the Amill position as pious brothers in the faith.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Dialogue_with_Trypho#Chapter_80

"And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you, sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?"

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Dialogue_with_Trypho#Chapter_80


If Justin Martyr believed those who held to the Amill position way back then were "true Christians", why do you feel compelled to slander your brother when he would not?

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #101 on: Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:53:21 »
the word of God alone is the sole basis from which a believer in Jesus Christ should learn what is truth and what is not the truth.

Amen.