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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Topic started by: versavia on Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 08:45:24

Title: Heavenly Temple
Post by: versavia on Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 08:45:24
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: Amo on Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 09:57:04
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The temple in heaven is the real temple, made without hands. The earthly temples were made after its pattern as types of the same. The gospel was preached through the types and symbols of the earthly temples and sacrificial system, until Christ Himself came in the flesh to establish that which they prophesied. That which they prophesied is not yet complete, but Christ has come as the predicted sacrifice, and as such is now the High Priest of the temple in heaven. The temple in heaven and the tempe on earth which is Christ's church, are connected through His continuous intercession for humanity in and through the church. Another literal temple on earth would be an affront to God, an attempt to stand between God and His people, and a throwback to a time of types and symbols only meant to exist until the real was established.

Nothing here can replace or improve in any way shape or form, that which God has established through Jesus Christ and His body, the church. Though many have tried and continue to try to break this connection directly to heaven through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, it cannot be done. All who so choose have direct access to the throne of God in heaven through Jesus Christ His Son and our Redeemer. Thus many a false, even "Christian" systems of worship and practice have been set up by the enemy of all souls to impede or cut off this connection to the heavenly temple and High Priest of the same. Only through deception, and the individuals acceptance of the same, can this be accomplished. No one can separate us from God through Christ, save ourselves in accepting and putting into practice the lies of the evil one. Such would be the only purpose of building another literal temple on earth.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 10:58:54
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: raggthyme13 on Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 03:16:49
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 12:03:36
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.   
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: raggthyme13 on Thu Dec 08, 2016 - 02:28:34
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.

That sounds more plausible than a literal temple being built to fulfill prophecy, as if God would allow the sacrifice of animals again… that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: Glorious on Thu Dec 08, 2016 - 05:00:55
notreligus wrote:
Quote
The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Exactly!

Both the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb constitute the Son of God in Heaven.  He will be (and is)Temple forever and ever.

Again, notreligus wrote:
Quote
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.

He is part of the Temple and He will illuminate the new earth with the light of His glory.

The Lamb in Heaven personifies the combo of all offices executed by Jesus on earth and in the world as follows:
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: GodsVoice on Mon Dec 12, 2016 - 14:32:12
The heavenly temple can be thought of as the MIND of MAN or the MIND OF GOD, or CREATED MAN made in the IMAGE OF GOD.  GOD and MAN are ONE.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: Amo on Sun Jan 01, 2017 - 08:42:31
The heavenly temple can be thought of as the MIND of MAN or the MIND OF GOD, or CREATED MAN made in the IMAGE OF GOD.  GOD and MAN are ONE.

There is a real temple in heaven, where our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ intercedes continually for humanity. Its size, magnitude, and scope are beyond our present comprehension. Several of the prophets have mentioned it and described as best as possible what they have seen of it.

God became a man in Christ Jesus for the salvation of fallen humanity. Man is certainly not, never has been, and never will be God save in Christ Jesus alone. Being made in the image of God, or being brought back to that image through salvation in Christ, is being made one with God according to His original purpose and intent for humanity. Christ became fully man, and is the only being that is fully God and fully man.

Atonement, At-one-ment with God is about our salvation through Christ becoming a man, not man becoming God. This was the desire of the evil one which debased humanity unto the need of salvation in the first place. Christ came to undo this by exemplifying the proper relation of humanity to God. Not to make humanity God.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: DaveRC on Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 22:40:33
The Most Holy Place represents a type or shadow whatever one labels it of heaven itself.

Please note, no one could enter this "temple" until the wrath of Christ was spent on the Old Covenant age. Revelation 15:8

Also please note the heavenly congregation are singing the "Song of Moses". Revelation 15:3

The Song of Moses is loaded with prophecies concerning the final days of the Old Covenant age but I'll refer you to three big ones - Deuteronomy 32:29,35-36,43.

Compare Deuteronomy 32:35-36 with Daniel 12:2,6-7.

The way into the Most Holy Place was not open until the consummation of the  Old Covenant age and ALL of its prophecies including the Song of Moses prophecies are fulfilled. Hebrews 9:8 + Revelation 15:3,8 + Deuteronomy 32:29,35-36,43 + Daniel 12:2,6-7 + Matthew 5:17-18 + Hebrews 8:13.

Edit: We can also throw in Matthew 23:29-36 & Luke 11:47-51.

See how it all corroborates?

Under the Law,  Israel was never forgiven while the High Priest still stood inside the Most Holy Place but was required to come back out alive
to declare Israel forgiven or judged. Hebrews 9:28.

The second coming of Christ represents the fulfilment of this Day of Atonement High Priest typology. 

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: DaveRC on Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 23:15:26
Furthermore,  this Resurrection spoken of in Daniel 12:2,6-7 is the very hopes of Israel - Acts 23:6; 24:14-15, 21;  and 26:6-8.

The Dispensationalists and Premillennialists have it wrong.


Edit: There is no two plan deal.  Just that New Covenant Israel encompasses a larger demographic - Galatians 6:15-16.

The Resurrection is the very hopes of Israel promised to the fathers.  That to reraise the dividing wall between physical Israel and spiritual Israel Christ tore down is a grave doctrinal error.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 23:15:38
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

For the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20, there will be a physical temple standing on earth in Jerusalem, built by our Lord Jesus. After the 1,000 years, there will be no more physical temple like Revelation 21 says.

Brethren need to be careful about believing men's traditions about this matter because many no longer do their homework in the OT prophets. Hear me out on this and you might learn something:

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

That's about our Lord Jesus The Christ. When He returns, He will build the final temple in Jerusalem, on earth. That is the temple which Ezekiel prophesied of in Ezekiel 40 through 47.

Old Testament Scripture like Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24 point to cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 70 weeks prophecy, and after the 2300 days. That is what that Zechariah 6 Scripture is about when Jesus returns, for He is THE BRANCH. That especially points to Him and no other as Zech.6:13 reveals it involves being a king upon a throne while also being a priest (see Psalms 110 if one doubts that). That office is reserved for Jesus Christ only and none other.

Ezek 40:2
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
KJV

Beginning in Ezekiel 40, which is immediately after the Ezek.39 chapter about the destruction of the Gog-Magog armies for the end of this present world, Ezekiel by vision from The LORD is taken to... "the land of Israel", "upon a very high mountain", overlooking "the frame of a city on the south." That was not... a picture of Heaven, it was a view upon the earth, a city where the following events are to take place.

Ezek 41:1-4
41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

2 And the breadth of the door was ten cubits; and the sides of the door were five cubits on the one side, and five cubits on the other side: and he measured the length thereof, forty cubits: and the breadth, twenty cubits.

3 Then went he inward, and measured the post of the door, two cubits; and the door, six cubits; and the breadth of the door, seven cubits.

4 So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
KJV

The Father's House is named simply a House and also temple in those Ezekiel chapters of Ezek.40 forward. It is shown to Ezekiel with precise dimensions of its structure, and also something else emitting from it.


Ezek 47:1-3
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
KJV

Waters issued out of the "house" from the right side of the "house". These waters flowed eastward, even to the outer eastward gate. Ezekiel was taken out a thousand cubits by the angel and the waters were up to his ankles. In continuing Scripture Ezekiel was then taken out another thousand cubits and the waters were up to his waste. He was then taken further out and the waters were moving so strong the River could not be passed over.

This River, is God's River of the Waters of Life. It is something REAL, and it is going to manifest back on earth in that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign on earth. Look in Genesis 2 and you will discover this River once existed upon the earth with God's Garden of Eden.



Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV


That Ezek.47:10 gives us the exact location of that future River which Ezekiel was given to see by vision on earth. En-gedi and En-eglaim are locations in the middle east holy lands where God established the twelve tribes of Israel after Joshua's day.

Continuing in Ezekiel 47 about that River reveals the many trees on either side of the River, bearing its fruits that have the leaves as medicine for the nations, which is a direct reference to the Tree of Life at the end Revelation.

Thus the Ezekiel 40 to 48 Chapters go hand-in-hand with the Revelation 20 to 22 Chapters. Revelation does not specifically tell us where all those events will take place. But Ezekiel does, and should have been read and studied first before getting to Revelation so we'd know these things.

In the new heavens and a new earth, like Revelation 21 says, there will be no more temple, as our Heavenly Father and His Son will be the temple. This is why Apostle Paul taught us about the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, with the prophets and Apostles as the foundation and our Lord Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone. Those in Christ also are represented as stones fittingly framed in that spiritual temple by The Lord.

But for the future 1,000 years by Christ and His elect on earth beginning on the last day of this present world, there will... be a temple built in Jerusalem again, by our Lord Jesus Himself (Zech.6, "THE BRANCH"). He will reign on His father David's throne as promised Him in both OT and NT Scripture. And David's throne was, and has always been, an EARTHLY throne. Right now, our Lord Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that is when Jesus will sit upon the throne of His glory per Matthew 25, which is His father David's throne.

This is why we today have been warned by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles about the coming Antichrist for the end of this world sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem for the end, and to be careful not to bow in worship to that false pseudo-Christ (2 Thess.2:4). Daniel 11 reveals the unbelieving Jews will build another temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's 2nd coming, and those Jews will re-institute the old covenant sacrificial worship, for they still reject The New Covenant Christ Jesus and His saving sacrifice on the cross. That temple they build in our times will be destroyed by Christ when He returns. Daniel 11 and Revelation 11:1-2 & 8 especially are pointers to the orthodox Jew's planned temple for the tribulation time.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 19:38:56
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

For the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20, there will be a physical temple standing on earth in Jerusalem, built by our Lord Jesus. After the 1,000 years, there will be no more physical temple like Revelation 21 says.

Brethren need to be careful about believing men's traditions about this matter because many no longer do their homework in the OT prophets. Hear me out on this and you might learn something:

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

That's about our Lord Jesus The Christ. When He returns, He will build the final temple in Jerusalem, on earth. That is the temple which Ezekiel prophesied of in Ezekiel 40 through 47.

Old Testament Scripture like Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24 point to cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 70 weeks prophecy, and after the 2300 days. That is what that Zechariah 6 Scripture is about when Jesus returns, for He is THE BRANCH. That especially points to Him and no other as Zech.6:13 reveals it involves being a king upon a throne while also being a priest (see Psalms 110 if one doubts that). That office is reserved for Jesus Christ only and none other.

Ezek 40:2
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
KJV

Beginning in Ezekiel 40, which is immediately after the Ezek.39 chapter about the destruction of the Gog-Magog armies for the end of this present world, Ezekiel by vision from The LORD is taken to... "the land of Israel", "upon a very high mountain", overlooking "the frame of a city on the south." That was not... a picture of Heaven, it was a view upon the earth, a city where the following events are to take place.

Ezek 41:1-4
41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

2 And the breadth of the door was ten cubits; and the sides of the door were five cubits on the one side, and five cubits on the other side: and he measured the length thereof, forty cubits: and the breadth, twenty cubits.

3 Then went he inward, and measured the post of the door, two cubits; and the door, six cubits; and the breadth of the door, seven cubits.

4 So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
KJV

The Father's House is named simply a House and also temple in those Ezekiel chapters of Ezek.40 forward. It is shown to Ezekiel with precise dimensions of its structure, and also something else emitting from it.


Ezek 47:1-3
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
KJV

Waters issued out of the "house" from the right side of the "house". These waters flowed eastward, even to the outer eastward gate. Ezekiel was taken out a thousand cubits by the angel and the waters were up to his ankles. In continuing Scripture Ezekiel was then taken out another thousand cubits and the waters were up to his waste. He was then taken further out and the waters were moving so strong the River could not be passed over.

This River, is God's River of the Waters of Life. It is something REAL, and it is going to manifest back on earth in that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign on earth. Look in Genesis 2 and you will discover this River once existed upon the earth with God's Garden of Eden.



Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV


That Ezek.47:10 gives us the exact location of that future River which Ezekiel was given to see by vision on earth. En-gedi and En-eglaim are locations in the middle east holy lands where God established the twelve tribes of Israel after Joshua's day.

Continuing in Ezekiel 47 about that River reveals the many trees on either side of the River, bearing its fruits that have the leaves as medicine for the nations, which is a direct reference to the Tree of Life at the end Revelation.

Thus the Ezekiel 40 to 48 Chapters go hand-in-hand with the Revelation 20 to 22 Chapters. Revelation does not specifically tell us where all those events will take place. But Ezekiel does, and should have been read and studied first before getting to Revelation so we'd know these things.

In the new heavens and a new earth, like Revelation 21 says, there will be no more temple, as our Heavenly Father and His Son will be the temple. This is why Apostle Paul taught us about the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, with the prophets and Apostles as the foundation and our Lord Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone. Those in Christ also are represented as stones fittingly framed in that spiritual temple by The Lord.

But for the future 1,000 years by Christ and His elect on earth beginning on the last day of this present world, there will... be a temple built in Jerusalem again, by our Lord Jesus Himself (Zech.6, "THE BRANCH"). He will reign on His father David's throne as promised Him in both OT and NT Scripture. And David's throne was, and has always been, an EARTHLY throne. Right now, our Lord Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that is when Jesus will sit upon the throne of His glory per Matthew 25, which is His father David's throne.

This is why we today have been warned by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles about the coming Antichrist for the end of this world sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem for the end, and to be careful not to bow in worship to that false pseudo-Christ (2 Thess.2:4). Daniel 11 reveals the unbelieving Jews will build another temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's 2nd coming, and those Jews will re-institute the old covenant sacrificial worship, for they still reject The New Covenant Christ Jesus and His saving sacrifice on the cross. That temple they build in our times will be destroyed by Christ when He returns. Daniel 11 and Revelation 11:1-2 & 8 especially are pointers to the orthodox Jew's planned temple for the tribulation time.

I would ask you to consider that you also need to do some homework and recognize that the great majority of OT prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.

The Christ's kingdom on the New Earth is the consummation.   

I have posted in this forum the many versions of the millennial kingdom that men's traditions - just like those you say should be avoided - have predicted about the millennial kingdom.   Rabbis have made various predictions about the millennial kingdom in the oral law.   I can post those again with references.  Christians can't agree on who is on the Earth during the millennium and what their roles will be.  Do you believe the Mid-Acts, or Full Dispensational view that the Gentiles will not be on the Earth?   It would seem so since you have mentioned only Jews.   Do you really believe that God is going to put the Gentiles on hold for 1,000 years to deal exclusively with Israel?   Mid-Acts folk believe that.   I used to be one of them and then I realized that this is contrary to what Christ accomplished on the cross.   If I were to keep promoting a dual covenant and a dual gospel I would be an enemy of the Gospel of Christ.   

A remnant of Jews believed and became part of the one new man in Christ, the Church.  They needed reconciliation just as all of mankind needed reconciliation.  God has not stopped dealing with the Jews.  They are now jealous of the Gentiles, just as Paul predicted.   We are under a New Covenant, one that does not separate the people of God by ethnicity.   God's new program is not a racist program.   Jews must come to Christ and put their faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.   Men like John Hagee are false teachers of a dual-gospel program. 

Do you believe that God is going to deal with the Jews exclusively for 1,000 years and then turn the Devil loose to try to take as many converts away from Christ as possible?   Are the Jews doomed to having God's full wrath unleashed against them during the Great Tribulation and then God is going to make it possible for more Jews to have His wrath unleashed on them?  You do know how terrible it was for the Jews (and some Christians) when the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem, don't you?   Well over a million Jews died.   You should know that even after that the Jews kept looking for a political messiah and the one they followed, Simon bar Kokhba, about 60 years later in the Second Jewish Revolt and that brought death to somewhere between 500,000 to 750,000 more Jews.

Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Gal 3:25  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26  for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 00:49:08

I would ask you to consider that you also need to do some homework and recognize that the great majority of OT prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.

I considered that long, long ago when I used to listen to the traditions of men instead of heeding God's Word as written with His help.

There is prophecy even in the Book of Genesis specifically for the last days before Christ's 2nd coming. It's Genesis 49 where Jacob told his twelve sons to gather around and he would tell them what would befall them in the last days.

So statements like the majority of the Old Testament Books are old history reveals someone who really isn't studied. It's really a cop out showing laziness in The Word, and it's also how so many of men's traditions get started.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 02:44:07
One thing we should also remember when we study the Old Testament is to study it in the light of Christ.

A very good example is Malachi 4"
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}

We can easily identify the Sun of righteousnes as Christ especially when we understand Sun signifies light.

Take verse 5. Without the light of Christ reflecting on the Old Testament we might assume a literal understanding & think Elijah the prophet was literally coming skewing our understanding.
But Jesus told us in Matthew 11 Elijah was John;
" 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus we have Christ showing us Elijah the prophet in verse 5 was a type & not literal, thus signified.  Just like "Sun of righteousness" in verse 2 is signified.

Peter told about the testimony of the prophets in his first epistle;
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Even Revelation is signified as explained in the first verse;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So one has to be cautious because if one literalizes that which is signified that can easily lead to error.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 05:20:26
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.
That's like saying when you are looking into a large body of water and see millions of tadpoles and say where are the frogs? Well you are looking at them if you understand what tadpoles are. The New Jerusalem is the temple/tabernacle of God. In OT, Jerusalem was where God was known to dwell in the Temple built by Solomon that was in Jerusalem a type of the New Jerusalem which are God elect out of every nation under heaven. Consider:
Quote
Hebrews 9:1-11~"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Again:
Quote
Acts 7:46-49~"Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
We KNOW where that place of rest is for our God. It is the NEW JERUSALEM not made with hands but by the life, death and resurrection of the Son of the Living God, designed and planned by the will and purpose of Almighty God according to the riches of his grace secured by two immutable things...God's promises of GRACE AND HIS OATH! This New Jerusalem is being built NOW and may very well be almost completed. Consider:
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1st Corinthians 3:16,17~"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Again:
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Ephesians 2:19-22~"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
Again:
Quote
1st Peter 2:4-8~"To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
I'll stop for now, but so much could be given to prove that the New Jerusalem are the elect of God out of every nation under heaven from Abel unto the very last soul born of God, even though grace and mercy were freely given to them before the foundation of the world, but the HOLY TEMPLE MUST BE BUILT for God's eternal resting place. Anyone who teaches that an earthly temple is yet to be built in that God forsaken land over in the middle east are terribly deceived just as Peter said in the scriptures that we quoted.
Quote
"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
In closing:
Quote
Revelation 21:2,3~"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers? 
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 08:17:55
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 10:28:36
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

They've been doing that for much longer than twenty years.    And the Mormons have offered Israel millions of dollars to help.   I was hard-line Dispensational and I've heard these same arguments for many more years than twenty.   

God's prophets said that the Messiah would come.   The Jews did not believe He was the Messiah.   Again, read John Chapter Five starting at about verse 44 or 45.   Jesus came to the Jews and they crucified Him because He was not the political Messiah they wanted.  The Jews were and remain a people who demand the sign that they want.   Read some of the apocryphal writings from the Pseudopigrapha and you find writings that Jews believed more than what Moses and the prophets had written.   The apocryphal writings pointed to a political Messiah.   The Jews followed a political Messiah about sixty years after Christ's ascension.    Paul said that the promises made to and through Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.   The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ, not the Jews.  To agree with your beliefs we all have to stop seeing Jesus for who He is and we have to believe in the false Jesus that is claimed when it is said that God has two concurrent and separate plans for Israel and Gentiles.    The separation of Israel as a separate group of believers from the rest of mankind is not according to what Paul taught and it goes against the fact that all of mankind must be reconciled to God and there is only one way that that can happen, and that is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.   

A messianic man admitted on this forum one time, for everyone to see and read, that Israel will have a higher position than Gentiles in the kingdom.   That comes by the false belief called covenantal nomism which is the belief that they are going to be saved by being the covenant people.   Paul said that the offspring promised to Abraham is ultimately Jesus Christ.    When we put our faith in Him we become joint heirs with Him.    Moses and an obsolete covenant cannot change that.    Read the Book of Hebrews.    So much of what Messianics and Dispensationals claim is going to happen in the future is already taking place as Christ reigns on the throne from Heaven right now.   Without His righteousness no human being, Jew or Gentile, will escape eternal separation from God.    That may not be dispensational, but that is the truth! 
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 03:47:39
That is such a misguided statement

I think you're above statement was a bit rude to Brother Red because Red holds to the ancient & dominate eschatological understanding believed from the ancient Church even to the Protestant Reformers. Historically it is a very orthodox understanding & is still believed by the majority of Christians in the world today as in the ancient past. It is the Amill understanding.


The current problem with the Amill understanding in the modern west is, it is not exciting. It doesn't get folks all worked up.
Because it is not exciting it is not a money maker or an ear tickler, or a crowd pleaser.
Amill simplified - Satan is bound at the Cross, preventing him from deceiving the nations, evidenced by the fact the Gospel is preached to the entire world. Jesus returns: the righteous go with Him to eternal life in the New Heavens & New Earth while the wicked go to eternal damnation. The end.


No exciting & highly profitable books, videos, sermons, movies, etc based on wild speculations out of that ancient doctrine. No interrupted timelines, no dual covenant theologies, no race verse grace debates, etc.

It starts with the Biblical premise that the greatest event in all of humanity, creation, the universe, in eternity past to eternity future is the event at the Cross of Christ. That all salvation hinges on this profound immense revelation & act of God.

That Jesus meant what he said:
"I,.., will draw all men unto me"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"


That the binding of Satan is explained by Jesus when he teaches about the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12, Mark 3, & Luke 11.

That He declared it so in John 12 after the Voice spoke from Heaven & Jesus said "now shall the prince of this world be cast out" Then reconfirms it in John 14 when He says " the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" showing Satan is bound unable to deceive the nations because of Jesus' most loving act on the Cross.

Thus Jesus illustrates the binding of Satan in all four Gospels.

Thus it is not 'misguided' it has been taught & believed in Christianity from the beginning.


One of the whys I made this post yesterday;
One thing we should also remember when we study the Old Testament is to study it in the light of Christ.

A very good example is Malachi 4"
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}

We can easily identify the Sun of righteousnes as Christ especially when we understand Sun signifies light.

Take verse 5. Without the light of Christ reflecting on the Old Testament we might assume a literal understanding & think Elijah the prophet was literally coming skewing our understanding.
But Jesus told us in Matthew 11 Elijah was John;
" 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus we have Christ showing us Elijah the prophet in verse 5 was a type & not literal, thus signified.  Just like "Sun of righteousness" in verse 2 is signified.

Peter told about the testimony of the prophets in his first epistle;
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Even Revelation is signified as explained in the first verse;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So one has to be cautious because if one literalizes that which is signified that can easily lead to error.

Hoping folks would seriously consider what is truly literal & what is truly signified by looking at all scripture through the light of Christ. Thus illuminating the shadows of types that were shown pointing to Christ. Now that Christ is come & we have the Gospels & Epistles we should be able to understand those old shadows of types far more clearly by standing firmly in the light of Christ as revealed to us in the Word of God contained in the New Testament. As it has been said so many times, "the old testament is the new testament concealed & the new testament is the old testament revealed".
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 05:36:54
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
Quote
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev4MilZGesU[/url]
And Oliver B. Greene
Quote
[url]http://www.thegospelhour.org/[/url]
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes on the scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed. You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially since you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.

Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel who used the phrase.  John never used either phrases that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believers to let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTER the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
Quote
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
Quote
man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: 4WD on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 06:50:58
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

It really doesn't matter what the Jews in Jerusalem might build.  That has nothing to do with the end time of Judeo-Christian eschatology.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: 4WD on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 06:55:17
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
Quote
[url]http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Dr-Harold-Sightler-Tabernacle-Baptist-Church-Greenville-SC.[/url]
And Oliver B. Greene
Quote
[url]http://www.thegospelhour.org/[/url]
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed. You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially think you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.

Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin is doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel use of the phrase.  John never used either phrase that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believersto let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTERWARD the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
Quote
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
Quote
man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later


Excellent !  Keep it up, RB.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 09:56:28
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
dpr~it is clear that what follows in 2nd Thess. 2 must occur before Jesus returns for us. This is undisputable, and cannot be gainsay, without a wicked attempt to go against Paul's teaching to the first-century church.
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Let no man deceive you by any means
There are sundry and divers means used by the man of sin to deceive believers, and we must guard ourselves from those many means, by trying all spirits by the scriptures.
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for that day shall not come
What day? The day of Christ, which is according to Paul when Christ comes again to gather to together the church. So, without controversy, the second coming of Jesus will NOT COME until a prophesied event shall take place FIRST. So far, there can be NO disagreement, UNLESS one wants to question Paul's understanding, which it would not be wise to do so, now would it?
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except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
This is one and the same event~much like the second coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection are one and the same event. The great falling aways is the results of the man of sin ruling in the temple of God standing where he ought not to standing, which is an abomination in God's sight which he WILL make desolate in his day! So, just before the coming of Jesus Christ there will be a falling away from the faith, in so much as that if God does not shortened the last days, no flesh would be saved, that is in a practical sense of having true love for God; true knowledge of the truths of God, even though multitudes will say that Jesus is the Christ, yet it is another Jesus, another spirit, following another gospel.
Quote
that man of sin be revealed
Who is this man of sin? Very simple~listen carefully....MAN of sin...man OF SIN! The man of sin is a man who lives under the power of SIN. This man will stand in the temple of God (or the professing worship places/buildings) professing that HE IS GOD~and this is done when one sets aside God's truth for their OWN doctrines and commandments. Much like the Pharisees did in Jesus day ONLY on a smaller scale than the man of sin will do in the last days of this world, just before Jesus' coming again.

Man of sin is a collective noun meaning ALL MEN who are living under the power of sin, regardless if they consider they do so or not. We used collective nouns when speaking of a group people who are known for doing the same vocation. Man of war is not one person, but all who go to war.  Man of God is used to includes ALL MEN who speak for God and that defends his cause. But a stronger prood is right here in the context under consideration~consider verses 11,12:
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And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them  that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Could it be any plainer? No, it cannot be.
Quote
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work
Paul is saying the exact same thing that John said in 1st John 2:18. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the fall, only it will increase the greatest at the time when Jesus shall return again, so much so, that NO FLESH would be saved if the Lord had not shortened those days. The salvation in that scripture from Matthew 24:24, is not speaking of our physical flesh~but of our hearts toward the things of God based on his word NOT what we think his word should say and teach! So much more could be said on this point, but I have made my point clearly~so I must stop and move on.




Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:01:21
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

They've been doing that for much longer than twenty years.    And the Mormons have offered Israel millions of dollars to help.   I was hard-line Dispensational and I've heard these same arguments for many more years than twenty.   

God's prophets said that the Messiah would come.   The Jews did not believe He was the Messiah.   Again, read John Chapter Five starting at about verse 44 or 45.   Jesus came to the Jews and they crucified Him because He was not the political Messiah they wanted.  The Jews were and remain a people who demand the sign that they want.   Read some of the apocryphal writings from the Pseudopigrapha and you find writings that Jews believed more than what Moses and the prophets had written.   The apocryphal writings pointed to a political Messiah.   The Jews followed a political Messiah about sixty years after Christ's ascension.    Paul said that the promises made to and through Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.   The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ, not the Jews.  To agree with your beliefs we all have to stop seeing Jesus for who He is and we have to believe in the false Jesus that is claimed when it is said that God has two concurrent and separate plans for Israel and Gentiles.    The separation of Israel as a separate group of believers from the rest of mankind is not according to what Paul taught and it goes against the fact that all of mankind must be reconciled to God and there is only one way that that can happen, and that is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.   

A messianic man admitted on this forum one time, for everyone to see and read, that Israel will have a higher position than Gentiles in the kingdom.   That comes by the false belief called covenantal nomism which is the belief that they are going to be saved by being the covenant people.   Paul said that the offspring promised to Abraham is ultimately Jesus Christ.    When we put our faith in Him we become joint heirs with Him.    Moses and an obsolete covenant cannot change that.    Read the Book of Hebrews.    So much of what Messianics and Dispensationals claim is going to happen in the future is already taking place as Christ reigns on the throne from Heaven right now.   Without His righteousness no human being, Jew or Gentile, will escape eternal separation from God.    That may not be dispensational, but that is the truth!

Lot of that is simply irrelevant to Bible prophecy as written in The Word of God, and is instead more of a political meandering than anything else. And I don't believe in Dispensationalism, so you can't try to use that as a political flag with me. Nor do I believe in a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Preterists and Historicists here simply have yet to realize there are folks that actually read and study their Bible for theirselves, and do not heed all these doctrines of men you've espoused.

Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.

 
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:09:01
That is such a misguided statement

I think you're above statement was a bit rude to Brother Red because Red holds to the ancient & dominate eschatological understanding believed from the ancient Church even to the Protestant Reformers. Historically it is a very orthodox understanding & is still believed by the majority of Christians in the world today as in the ancient past. It is the Amill understanding.


Regardless of what you think, one who does not know today what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem plan to do with building another temple, which has been their aim ever since the U.N. vote in 1948 to establish Israel as a nation again, disregarding it either means ignorance of the prophecies for the end in God's Word, or it means direct denial of them.

Like I told notreligious, I'm not a Pre-tribber, nor a Dispensationalist, so Preterists and Historicists can't use those things as trying to put them in my mouth. You folks need to actually listen to what I'm saying, and not just assume I'm saying something else I didn't.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:23:44
Regardless of what you think, one who does not know today what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem plan to do with building another temple, which has been their aim ever since the U.N. vote in 1948 to establish Israel as a nation again, disregarding it either means ignorance of the prophecies for the end in God's Word, or it means direct denial of them.

Like I told notreligious, I'm not a Pre-tribber, nor a Dispensationalist, so Preterists and Historicists can't use those things as trying to put them in my mouth. You folks need to actually listen to what I'm saying, and not just assume I'm saying something else I didn't.

I do listen. I actually sent RB a pm letting him know you are not a full dispensationalist. But you do sound like a partial-dispensationalist because you are looking for a fulfillment of an earthy kingdom involving racial Israel.

You said;
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..

Why I asked you to consider Christ's testimony on who He would draw unto himself.

That is one of the core tenets of dispensationalist, dividing the body of Christ with a dual covenant race & grace theology. One of the reasons I said what I did above.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:30:39

The current problem with the Amill understanding in the modern west is, it is not exciting. It doesn't get folks all worked up.
Because it is not exciting it is not a money maker or an ear tickler, or a crowd pleaser.
Amill simplified - Satan is bound at the Cross, preventing him from deceiving the nations, evidenced by the fact the Gospel is preached to the entire world. Jesus returns: the righteous go with Him to eternal life in the New Heavens & New Earth while the wicked go to eternal damnation. The end.

I don't do seminary categorizations like Amill, Premill, etc., either. That's a waste of time, because like I said before, doing that tries to put a whole set of men's doctrines into someone's mouth which they may not even believe in. If you guys went to seminary, you really need to get back to the basic simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.

The fact that I do believe in a literal return of our Lord Jesus sometime in the future when He will gather His Church, after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24 but immediately before the Millennium of Rev.20, it doesn't matter to me that means Premill. The early 1st century Church fathers were Premill, so I've got good company, but do I make that a whole stance? No, of course not.

As for thinking that Satan is now bound, that is misunderstood per the Book of John. Jesus said in John 14 Satan ("prince") is coming, and Rev.12:7 forward shows Satan will be cast out of the Heavenly down to this earth in the last days, with his angels. So that is actually what the "cast out" idea is about, not some tradition of men that thinks Satan was bound when our Lord Jesus died on the cross.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV

That doesn't really sound like Satan is bound from this world now does it? Jesus said that after He said John 12:31. Right now Satan is in his abode in the Heavenly, and he is free to work evil upon this earth still, which can easily still be seen very much today once one takes their blinders off. Jesus showed us Satan is coming, which is what Rev.12:7 forward shows us, even that Satan's 'place' in Heaven is no more found at that point. When that future casting out happens, that is what will cause the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned us about. That is how it is that at Christ's 2nd coming Satan is then... bound... in chains and thrown into his pit prison for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ Jesus and His elect.

In Rev.3:9, our Lord Jesus showed us those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing in worship at the feet of Christ's elect. That has NEVER happened yet to this day. That event is set for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect. So thinking that future 1,000 years is already past, or that we are already in it today, is a ludicrous thought when I look at Scripture and compare. Nowhere does such an idea even originate in God's Word.



Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: 4WD on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:52:54
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:56:28
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
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[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev4MilZGesU[/url]
And Oliver B. Greene
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[url]http://www.thegospelhour.org/[/url]
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes on the scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed.


Well, I never have believed that junk put out by Scofield, nor the ones he got his doctrine from, like John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving in 1830's Britain, and the Margret MacDonald clan. I don't believe in a Pre-trib Rapture. Nor do I have respect for those men in general, because I believe they were charlatans.

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You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially since you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.


I'd be careful about such rash statements (as that in bold), you may have to eat those words at a later date.
 

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Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel who used the phrase.  John never used either phrases that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
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2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believers to let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTER the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
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man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later


Your First Error:

You have wrongly assumed that Premill automatically means someone who believes in a Pre-trib Rapture of the Church. I am NOT Pre-trib. I believe in a POST-TRIBULATION COMING OF CHRIST JESUS AND GATHERING OF THE CHURCH.

All the Premill label itself means is someone who believes Jesus comes and gathers His Church prior to the Millennium. It does not have to point specifically to a Pre-trib Rapture belief.

I very much believe what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2 as written, i.e., that before Jesus comes to gather His Church, 2 main events must occur first, 1) a great falling away, and 2) the man of sin must be revealed (doing what though? sitting in the temple of God which has historically always meant Jerusalem).

Some try to supplant "the temple of God" in that 2 Thess.2:4 verse with the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 about the Church. That is impossible, since that would mean a corruption of that foundation of the spiritual Church Paul taught there, which is founded upon the prophets, the Apostles, with Christ Himself as the Chief Cornerstone. That would have to mean that false one of 2 Thess.2:4 could corrupt the spiritual temple in Heaven, which is impossible. Those who try to do that are simply 'cut off' from the spiritual temple which represents Christ's heavenly Church. Remember what Jesus said to Peter about established His Church?

Something else, which I think may be way... past your understanding at present, we are given a major hint who that "man of sin" is going to be per that 2 Thess.2. It ensures that is ain't gonna' be no pope, nor any flesh man. That title "son of perdition" applies to only two entities in all of God's Word. It was applied to Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus, whom our Lord said "is a devil" (John 6:70). But Judas had already died by this time when Paul wrote 2 Thess.2. That "son of perdition" title is applied again here, and it involves the idea of a devil. Need I say more? (This idea is confirmed in Revelation Scripture as well).
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:02:47

It really doesn't matter what the Jews in Jerusalem might build.  That has nothing to do with the end time of Judeo-Christian eschatology.

Hold that thought, until you see another Jewish temple built in Jerusalem, with sacrifices started up again. That is exactly what the Book of Daniel points to for the end, which Jesus linked with the seven signs of the end He gave in His Olivet discourse, and with the events of Revelation about the coming Antichrist, and about the "man of sin" who must be revealed sitting in the "temple of God" proclaiming himself as God, and over all that is even called God, or that is worshiped.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:05:10

I don't do seminary categorizations like Amill, Premill, etc., either. That's a waste of time, because like I said before, doing that tries to put a whole set of men's doctrines into someone's mouth which they may not even believe in. If you guys went to seminary, you really need to get back to the basic simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.

The fact that I do believe in a literal return of our Lord Jesus sometime in the future when He will gather His Church, after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24 but immediately before the Millennium of Rev.20, it doesn't matter to me that means Premill. The early 1st century Church fathers were Premill, so I've got good company, but do I make that a whole stance? No, of course not.

As for thinking that Satan is now bound, that is misunderstood per the Book of John. Jesus said in John 14 Satan ("prince") is coming, and Rev.12:7 forward shows Satan will be cast out of the Heavenly down to this earth in the last days, with his angels. So that is actually what the "cast out" idea is about, not some tradition of men that thinks Satan was bound when our Lord Jesus died on the cross.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV

That doesn't really sound like Satan is bound from this world now does it? Jesus said that after He said John 12:31. Right now Satan is in his abode in the Heavenly, and he is free to work evil upon this earth still, which can easily still be seen very much today once one takes their blinders off. Jesus showed us Satan is coming, which is what Rev.12:7 forward shows us, even that Satan's 'place' in Heaven is no more found at that point. When that future casting out happens, that is what will cause the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned us about. That is how it is that at Christ's 2nd coming Satan is then... bound... in chains and thrown into his pit prison for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ Jesus and His elect.

In Rev.3:9, our Lord Jesus showed us those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing in worship at the feet of Christ's elect. That has NEVER happened yet to this day. That event is set for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect. So thinking that future 1,000 years is already past, or that we are already in it today, is a ludicrous thought when I look at Scripture and compare. Nowhere does such an idea even originate in God's Word.


The labels are just definitions of understanding.

Yes, many of the early church father were pre-mill & many were not, they were amill. They were the two understandings of the early church.

The pre-mill of the early church was completely different that what is thought today & did not expect a dual covenant racial fulfillment theology. As a matter of fact they thought the return to land is significant event pointing to the coming of antichrist. Hippolytus wrote ""I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it." And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm)

But for a long time pre-mill fell to the wayside due to understanding like I explained about regarding Jesus' testimony in all four gospels regarding the binding of Satan illustrating the two verses in Revelation is signified. As stated in the very first verse of the Book. That Book does explain the binding only applies to deception of the nations. Prior to the Cross of Christ all nations were deceived & engaged in paganism & forms of apostasy. Why I also noted that the Gospel going throughout the world is evidence because it proves that Satan can not deceive those from believing the Gospel thus no longer able keep them in bondage.

To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.

Satan was already cast down. Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" Jesus instructed John in the first chapter "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" There are three components in Jesus' instruction to John, past - "hast seen", John's present - "which are", future - "shall be hereafter". When we study this book we have to be able to discern this as well. If it were not important for our understanding Jesus would not have told us.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:11:42
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:26:12
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.

I'd be interested in reading. Would you send it to me as well?
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:26:52
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.
Brother you are correct. Brother, the 70 A.D. theory is JUST THAT, a theory as far as having any biblical relevant. That doctrine is much like the secret rapture theory if one had never heard of either them when coming to search the scriptures, then that person would leave the scriptures still NEVER knowing either one of them for they are BOTH a lie as far as having any part in biblical eschatology. The destruction of literal Jerusalem was not even on Jesus' mind when he gave the Olivet discourse, it is strictly dealing with the latter days of this world just before Christ return again, and his second coming.
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Matthew 24:36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This generation that shall not passed till all be fulfilled is (just as the context reveals to us) is the evil generation of the wicked...the ungodly of this world. Almost without exception when this generation phrase is used it always refers to evil and ungodly children of the old serpent. David so used it in this sense~Psalm 12, so the John the Baptist and Jesus~Matthew 3; Matthew 23.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:32:18
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2nd Thessalonians 2~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
dpr~it is clear that what follows in 2nd Thess. 2 must occur before Jesus returns for us. This is undisputable, and cannot be gainsay, without a wicked attempt to go against Paul's teaching to the first-century church.
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Let no man deceive you by any means
There are sundry and divers means used by the man of sin to deceive believers, and we must guard ourselves from those many means, by trying all spirits by the scriptures.
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for that day shall not come
What day? The day of Christ, which is according to Paul when Christ comes again to gather to together the church. So, without controversy, the second coming of Jesus will NOT COME until a prophesied event shall take place FIRST. So far, there can be NO disagreement, UNLESS one wants to question Paul's understanding, which it would not be wise to do so, now would it?
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except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
This is one and the same event~much like the second coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection are one and the same event. The great falling aways is the results of the man of sin ruling in the temple of God standing where he ought not to standing, which is an abomination in God's sight which he WILL make desolate in his day! So, just before the coming of Jesus Christ there will be a falling away from the faith, in so much as that if God does not shortened the last days, no flesh would be saved, that is in a practical sense of having true love for God; true knowledge of the truths of God, even though multitudes will say that Jesus is the Christ, yet it is another Jesus, another spirit, following another gospel.
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that man of sin be revealed
Who is this man of sin? Very simple~listen carefully....MAN of sin...man OF SIN! The man of sin is a man who lives under the power of SIN. This man will stand in the temple of God (or the professing worship places/buildings) professing that HE IS GOD~and this is done when one sets aside God's truth for their OWN doctrines and commandments. Much like the Pharisees did in Jesus day ONLY on a smaller scale than the man of sin will do in the last days of this world, just before Jesus' coming again.

Yes, I mostly agree with you on that. I believe in a Post-trib coming and gathering to Christ, remember?

The great falling away I see timed WITH that event of the man of sin revealed sitting in the temple of God. That will be "great tribulation" timing, the events Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse:

Matt 24:15-26
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When the "abomination of desolation" is setup at the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, Jesus then gives this warning above to those of His in Jerusalem. That "holy place" is about the inner part of that new temple.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

These above verses our Lord is warning about that "man of sin" Paul spoke of, and the "another beast" which John spoke of, and the "vile person" Daniel spoke of. That is who will be behind placing the abomination idol in the temple for all to bow in false worship to; (Antiochus IV (170-165 B.C.) serves as a blueprint for this future event in Jerusalem).

The KJV phrase "false Christs" is Greek pseudochristos, made up of two Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and Christos which means Christ. The context of these 23 through 26 verses is singular, about a singular entity, the Antichrist. Our Lord warned those in Jerusalem when that man of sin is revealed there to not believe on him when others come up and say things like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", etc. The majority of the world is going to believe that man of sin is God. The Jews will think he is Messiah. Deceived Christian brethren will think he is our Lord Jesus.

Our Lord gave a very, very specific warning about the 'power' of deception that pseudo-Christ is going to do in Jerusalem in our near future. He showed that false one will work deception so powerful that IF possible, it would deceive Christ's own elect. What would it take to 'almost'... deceive Christ's own elect, one must ask? His own elect cannot be deceived in the first place, but if... they could be, what level of great signs and wonders would it take to almost deceive them? That is what that coming pseudo-Christ is going to do. Many believers will be tricked by that event in our near future.

The great signs and wonders that pseudo-Christ is going to do in Jerusalem, are the same signs, wonders, and miracles mentioned the false one of 2 Thess.2 and Rev.13:11 will do. So God's Word on this is NOT just talking of some flesh man coming that's a great orator and charlatan like a Hitler or some eastern guru. The pseudo-Christ is coming to works supernatural miracles on earth in the sight of men that would IF possible, deceive even Christ's own elect. The pseudo-Christ is coming to play... our Lord Jesus Christ. That is basically what Apostle Paul was revealing in 2 Corinthians 11 where he warned of the "another Jesus", and later said Satan is disguised (Greek meaning for "transformed") as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.


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Man of sin is a collective noun meaning ALL MEN who are living under the power of sin, regardless if they consider they do so or not. We used collective nouns when speaking of a group people who are known for doing the same vocation. Man of war is not one person, but all who go to war.  Man of God is used to includes ALL MEN who speak for God and that defends his cause. But a stronger prood is right here in the context under consideration~consider verses 11,12:
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And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them  that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Could it be any plainer? No, it cannot be.
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For the mystery of iniquity doth already work
Paul is saying the exact same thing that John said in 1st John 2:18. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the fall, only it will increase the greatest at the time when Jesus shall return again, so much so, that NO FLESH would be saved if the Lord had not shortened those days. The salvation in that scripture from Matthew 24:24, is not speaking of our physical flesh~but of our hearts toward the things of God based on his word NOT what we think his word should say and teach! So much more could be said on this point, but I have made my point clearly~so I must stop and move on.

No, that "man of sin" is not some collectivist sense idea. You cannot apply it that way since Paul definitely did not. Paul made it plain he was speaking of ONE PARTICULAR MAN, not to 'all men' like you've wrongly surmised.

Likewise it is in Matt.24:23-26, and in Dan.11, and in Rev.13:11 forward, they all are speaking of a specific singular entity, i.e., the coming Antichrist.

It is surprising that you would suddenly jump to that doctrine of men collectivist idea for "man of sin", especially since in your previous posts you said those Scriptures I mentioned were all about the same person, the Antichrist. You do realize teaching that collectivist sense goes against that don't you?
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:40:10
No, that "man of sin" is not some collectivist sense idea. You cannot apply it that way since Paul definitely did not. Paul made it plain he was speaking of ONE PARTICULAR MAN, not to 'all men' like you've wrongly surmised.

Likewise it is in Matt.24:23-26, and in Dan.11, and in Rev.13:11 forward, they all are speaking of a specific singular entity, i.e., the coming Antichrist.

It is surprising that you would suddenly jump to that doctrine of men collectivist idea for "man of sin", especially since in your previous posts you said those Scriptures I mentioned were all about the same person, the Antichrist. You do realize teaching that collectivist sense goes against that don't you?
I must answer you in the morning on this, and truly looking forward to do so. Also I want to address this point that you made:
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I very much believe what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2 as written, i.e., that before Jesus comes to gather His Church, 2 main events must occur first, 1) a great falling away, and 2) the man of sin must be revealed (doing what though? sitting in the temple of God which has historically always meant Jerusalem).
I will consider both later.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:51:03


I do listen. I actually sent RB a pm letting him know you are not a full dispensationalist. But you do sound like a partial-dispensationalist because you are looking for a fulfillment of an earthy kingdom involving racial Israel.

You said;
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..

No, I'm not a Dispensationalist even in the partial sense. That was a doctrine John Darby started to further his false Pre-trib Rapture theories. In particular, Dispensationalism teaches Israel will be established on earth during the Millennium while Christ and His Church reign from Heaven. That's especially how Darby setup Dispensationalism to support the Pre-trib theories.


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Why I asked you to consider Christ's testimony on who He would draw unto himself.

That is one of the core tenets of dispensationalist, dividing the body of Christ with a dual covenant race & grace theology. One of the reasons I said what I did above.

I do not divide Christ's body of believers, of both Israelite and Gentile. But I do follow Scripture.

So what does God's Word actually teach about Israel?

It teaches that the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" and the branch of Judah or "house of Judah", will be joined back together again in the middle east where He promised their fathers, with David as their king. This is plainly written in Ezekiel 37 for one, as also in many other OT Scriptures. That will most definitely involve Christ's Church, as Christ's Church will be the heart of those help Jesus rule over Israel and the nations in that future time ON EARTH. (See Ezek.44, the Zadok (the Just) represent Christ's overcomers, His Church.)

When our Lord Jesus returns, He is going to gather His Church and go immediately to Jerusalem as written in Zechariah 14. That is where and when the 1,000 years Millennium of Rev.20 will begin.

What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

When Jesus comes, many in the Church are going to discover they had an old heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel all along.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:52:30
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.

I'm not so sure about that.

Please consider these verses at the beginning of Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples ask two questions.

1. regarding the temple - "when shall these things be?"

2. "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?"

Thus we know we have two topics contained in Jesus' answer & have to discern which is about the destruction of the earthy temple of the past & the Second Advent.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:01:54
To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.
I strongly believe we are for many different reasons, that I must share later~for now, I believe that it started somehwere around the late seventeen hundred to the early 1800's. Stop and consider with me~think of all the many leading false cults in the world today and when they started? Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA all started within two hundred miles of each other in around the mid-1800's.  The tongue movement around the 1830, or thereabouts; to where we are now with so many prosperity gospel preachers who are super rich, etc. We could say more, but this world and its religion landscape made a major change in the last 170 years or so! What are three hundred years in man's sight? NOT MUCH, not even a little season in God's timeline for this earth.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:03:54
When Jesus comes, many in the Church are going to discover they had an old heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel all along.

Probably so. Mathematically the odds are in the favor that we all are.

Consider this, If we use 40 years as a generation (which is very generous) making only 68 generations to that time. Then calculate 4(grandparents) to the 68th(generations) power to calculate the exponent(total). Which produces 87,112,285,931,760,246,646,623,899,502,532,662,132,736 grandparents.

The sheer magnitude & impossibility of that many grandparents should put the reality into perspective. The number is so large in just 68 generations that it is virtually impossible for us all not to be.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:04:47
To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.
I strongly believe we are for many different reasons, that I must share later~for now, I believe that it started somehwere around the late seventeen hundred to the early 1800's. Stop and consider with me~think of all the many leading false cults in the world today and when they started? Mormonism; Jehovah Witnesses;  SDA all started with two hundred miles of each other in around the mid-1800's.  The tongue movement around the 1830, or thereabouts; to where we are now with so many prosperity gospel preachers who are super rich, etc. We could say more, but this world and its religion landscape made a major change in the last 170 years or so! What tow to three hundred years in man's sight? NOT MUCH, not even a little season in God timeline for this earth.

We're close on that timing thinking too.  ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:07:26
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No, Paul is speaking of the historic Jerusalem temple. That has always been considered the temple of God throughout Bible history, including in his day with the standing 2nd temple.

Understanding Daniel 11 is very important, because it reveals the abomination of desolation event involves a condition in Jerusalem when the old covenant is established again (called the holy covenant there), because it involves the daily sacrifice. That is pointing exactly to what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have always planned ever since they became a nation again in 1948, establish the old covenant temple and sacrifices and priesthood, again. They believe they are still under the old covenant. They do not believe on our Lord Jesus, and that's important to remember.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:08:39
What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

Regarding Ezekiel's temple you are looking for a literal fulfillment & not considering that it is a signified pattern just like Moses' tabernacle. A pattern whose fulfillment is revealed as the spiritual temple Christ has built.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:11:29
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.

I'm not so sure about that.

Please consider these verses at the beginning of Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples ask two questions.

1. regarding the temple - "when shall these things be?"

2. "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?"

Thus we know we have two topics contained in Jesus' answer & have to discern which is about the destruction of the earthy temple of the past & the Second Advent.

Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:13:20
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No it does not.

It actually illustrates what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse about deception & deceivers coming in Christ's name. Christ & the Apostles warned repeatedly about corruption of Godly truth within the Church. The Apostles themselves had to deal with it in their lifetime.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:23:33
dpr, we are actually not that far apart on a lot of things.

You're trying to make the case that earthly Jerusalem is "the Temple of God".

I can make a very strong case that earthly Jerusalem is Babylon the Great, the mother of all harlots via the testimony of Jesus, John, Paul, Jeremiah, etc. Thus, the "vile one" be in that city.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 14:30:33
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 15:10:29
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

I wish I could give you more than one +. 

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: notreligus on Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 16:30:43
How does the man of sin defile a Temple which was built for use by apostate Jews?   
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 01:34:40
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.

Yes I read it. But no... it doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is timing for AFTER Christ's SECOND coming, not His first. It's easy to know this because at no other time are His elect resurrected from the dead to reign with Him. Not only that, but our Lord Jesus doesn't even begin to reign over the earth until He sits upon the throne promised Him, which is His father David's throne, an earthly throne.

Christ's ordained purpose of destroying the works of the devil does not change God's timetable for when His Son will de facto return to this earth and reign with His elect Church. Apostle Paul showed us in 1 Cor.15:23-28 that The Father has a timetable for that. Likewise with the destruction of the devil at the end of the 1,000 years, that is according to God's timetable also. Assuming that timetable was changed is to not understand the Scriptures about the devil's defeat by our Lord Jesus.

The miracles our Lord Jesus did at His 1st coming to include the casting out of demons signifies His Power and Kingdom alright. But Jesus agreed to put His coming physical Kingdom in abeyance when He gave up His life on the cross, which is what His 1st coming was actually about. When His disciples thought to defend Him against those who would kill Him, He told His servants that He could pray to The Father and He'd send 12 legions of angels (Matt.26:53). But how would the Scriptures be fulfilled?

The passage in Luke 10 about Satan's fall was NOT... about the Revelation 12:7 forward event. In Daniel 12 this is revealed when the Rev.12:7-17 events will take place:

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That idea of the Archangel Michael 'standing up' is about the war in heaven against Satan and his army at the end of this world which will begin that time on earth, which is what kind of time there? It is a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation event to that same time. That is a direct reference to Christ's warning of the future time of "great tribulation" per His Olivet discourse.


The context of the following Scripture in Rev.12 is about our near future regarding the "great tribulation" events:

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.'
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

When Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven, there being no more place in Heaven found for them, that is when this will be said at that point in time Salvation is come in Heaven, and the power of Christ, which means Christ had already fulfilled His Ministry of dying on the cross with The Father having raised Him to the right hand of His throne. Then the 11th verse about the overcomers is a tribulation timing event of those in Christ Jesus that will be killed during the tribulation, which is a 5th Seal event written of in Revelation 6.

Satan's original fall... was of old, and is recorded in Ezekiel 28 & 31, and Isaiah 14. That was when he originally rebelled in coveting God's throne. So God cast him out. That was long before Christ's 1st coming. But this here in Rev.12, this is for the "great tribulation" timing in our near future. This did not happen during Christ's 1st coming.


12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

That "short time" is about the tribulation timing which Jesus said He shortened for His elect's sake back in Matthew 24. The "time, times, and half a time" = 3 and 1/2 and is a direct pointer to the Daniel 9 events of the last "one week", i.e., 2 periods of 1260 days each equaling a total of seven symbolic years. Revelation 11 & 13 give us that timing also for how long the dragon will work on earth, and how long God's two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem at the end.

Rev.12:17 reveals the serpent's flood out of his mouth is directed towards those who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. That means those of Christ's faithful Church.

In Rev.16 we are shown the spirits of devils working on the earth to gather up the kings of the east for the battle of Armageddon. All these Revelation events showing the things leading up to Christ's 2nd coming are not just going to go away. Human reasoning cannot remove them. We can either choose to listen to our Lord in His Revelation about the end of this world, or we can try to go our own way and suffer the consequences for not obeying His command for these last days.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:06:00

The labels are just definitions of understanding.

Yes, many of the early church father were pre-mill & many were not, they were amill. They were the two understandings of the early church.


Let us be more accurate than that; most of the writings of the 1st century Church fathers reveal they were millennialists. The doctrine of amillennialism didn't actually begin until the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D. Thus I see amillennialism as a latter corruption, which is how such corruptions usually work, i.e., leaving original doctrine for something else, just like what the pre-trib founders did in the 1830's with leaving the traditional post-trib view that the Christian Church had held for around 1,800 years.

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The pre-mill of the early church was completely different that what is thought today & did not expect a dual covenant racial fulfillment theology. As a matter of fact they thought the return to land is significant event pointing to the coming of antichrist. Hippolytus wrote ""I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it." And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews." [url]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm[/url])


Actually, even bringing up ideas of comparison to Dispensationalism, which was an invention of the 1800's, is completely irrelevant to the 1st century Church father's millennial views. Bible prophecy for the end is about a millennial kingdom reign on earth for 1,000 years by Christ and His elect Church. Just before this, they saw the coming of a false one, i.e., the Antichrist, prior to Christ's 2nd coming. Their view I very much align with. Just so happens that's actually the view of Holy Writ, and that is why anyone who seriously keeps to God's Holy Writ as written are also going to be aligned with the 1st century Church fathers.


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But for a long time pre-mill fell to the wayside due to understanding like I explained about regarding Jesus' testimony in all four gospels regarding the binding of Satan illustrating the two verses in Revelation is signified. As stated in the very first verse of the Book. That Book does explain the binding only applies to deception of the nations. Prior to the Cross of Christ all nations were deceived & engaged in paganism & forms of apostasy. Why I also noted that the Gospel going throughout the world is evidence because it proves that Satan can not deceive those from believing the Gospel thus no longer able keep them in bondage.


I don't see this later understanding written anywhere in God's Word. I only see men trying to 'push' it into Scripture when it is not there at all, much like what the pre-trib school tries to do.


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To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.


I don't see how any believer born in my era could miss how rotten the world has fallen into. I have never seen the like of today's persecutions in the Christian west when I was a child many decades ago.


Quote
Satan was already cast down. Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" Jesus instructed John in the first chapter "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" There are three components in Jesus' instruction to John, past - "hast seen", John's present - "which are", future - "shall be hereafter". When we study this book we have to be able to discern this as well. If it were not important for our understanding Jesus would not have told us.


Satan was originally cast down when he rebelled against God in coveting His throne in the time of old. If God has opened you eyes in OT Scripture about that, you'd know that was in a time even before Adam and Eve. It was a time when Satan actually followed God and was exalted as a covering cherub (guard of God's throne).

In the Book of Job we are shown how Satan has access to the Heavenly at God's Throne (Rev.12 shows this too), and also walking up and down and in the earth. He is still free to do this today. The binding of Rev.20 is only for AFTER... Christ's 2nd coming when the "first resurrection" will occur.

When our Lord Jesus died on the cross and The Father raised Him, right then His spiritual Kingdom came into existence; but not His physical Kingdom per the OT prophets of what God promised in final. Paul said that Christ must reign until all His enemies are put under Him. And then He will submit the Kingdom to The Father (1 Cor.15:23-28). That is about His 1,000 years reign on earth over all... nations, which is one of the subjects of Rev.20.

As of now, Christ's 1st coming happened way... over 1,000 years ago. So if His Kingdom came into existence then with Satan bound then per Rev.20, then those in Christ should be in God's new heavens and new earth timing by now. But we aren't. And the reason why is because Christ's 1,000 years reign per Rev.20 is still in our future.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:35:04
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

I know some of you guys like to throw the sanctuary of Ezekiel back in the past, but it has NEVER been built yet. Nor has there ever manifested on earth a Jerusalem temple which emitted healing waters out from under the house like the Ezekiel 47 Chapter shows, and in connection with the Tree of Life. Anyone can claim that was past history, but their claim simply falls by the wayside once the Ezekiel Scripture about it is read and declared.

Ezekiel 40 thru 47 reveals there will be a physical temple/sanctuary involved in Jerusalem after Christ's return, and it will be for the 1,000 years of Rev.20. It is going to be a time of correction upon God's people. It is in that sanctuary where Christ's elect will serve Him at His table (Ezekiel 44). Only the Zadok (the Just) priests (which represent Christ's faithful Church) will be allowed to approach near Him (Ezek.44).


Why Apostle Paul's "temple of God" is a Physical Temple in Jerusalem The Antichrist Will Invade:

Reasoning that, if unbelievers build a temple with human hands, that means it can't be the temple of God, does not work.

The whole premise about the very end of this world with the coming Antichrist is about deception to a pseudo-Christ (Matt.24:23-26). The orthodox Jews do NOT believe on our Lord Jesus Christ! They still think they are living under the OLD COVENANT. That means 'they'... believe a temple and sacrifices are STILL REQUIRED TODAY! Their actions are based on THEIR understanding of the times, and not on our thoughts who have believed on Jesus Christ. This is why you cannot insert our Christian thinking into their minds.

Our Lord Jesus showed 'us' (His Church), that the Antichrist is being prepared for the rebellious unbelieving Jews, especially those Jews with the attitude like the scribes and Pharisees which sought to accuse our Lord.

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

Well, that another is coming, i.e., the Antichrist, or pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus warned of. Even with the Greek for "antichrist", in the Greek it can mean the 'instead of Christ', or 'in place of Christ'. That is what the coming Antichrist's job is, to deceive the rebellious who have not believed our Heavenly Father and His Son, and His prophets and Apostles.

Jerusalem is where God has chosen to dwell forever. That is why Satan is coming there to try and claim it for himself, doing the very same sin he did back of old, coveting what belongs to our Heavenly Father.

That is why the orthodox unbelieving Jews will be happy to build that next temple for Messiah to sit in. Excuse me; did I say for Messiah to sit in? I meant the Antichrist, however, they don't know that part about the Antichrist. They will think and believe he is their Messiah having come to restore their kingdom, just as the OT prophets did proclaim.

Deceived Christian brethren who listen to charlatans will be happy to help those Jews build it. Many of these deceived Christians have already been donating funds just for the future building of the temple. Red heifers from the USA have been sent also. Some orthodox Jews have been doing passover animal sacrifices on a hill overlooking the temple mount for several years now (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).


Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:40:55
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.
Brother you are correct. Brother, the 70 A.D. theory is JUST THAT, a theory as far as having any biblical relevant. That doctrine is much like the secret rapture theory if one had never heard of either them when coming to search the scriptures, then that person would leave the scriptures still NEVER knowing either one of them for they are BOTH a lie as far as having any part in biblical eschatology. The destruction of literal Jerusalem was not even on Jesus' mind when he gave the Olivet discourse, it is strictly dealing with the latter days of this world just before Christ return again, and his second coming.
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Matthew 24:36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This generation that shall not passed till all be fulfilled is (just as the context reveals to us) is the evil generation of the wicked...the ungodly of this world. Almost without exception when this generation phrase is used it always refers to evil and ungodly children of the old serpent. David so used it in this sense~Psalm 12, so the John the Baptist and Jesus~Matthew 3; Matthew 23.

That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24.

He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled. (God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:49:48
What's funny, is neither the Jews nor Pre-tribbers like that idea. But that's actually what God's Word teaches. The "many mansions" which Pre-tribbers think is up in the clouds, are actually the abodes of the priests in the sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 to 47.

Regarding Ezekiel's temple you are looking for a literal fulfillment & not considering that it is a signified pattern just like Moses' tabernacle. A pattern whose fulfillment is revealed as the spiritual temple Christ has built.

No doubt in my mind; it will be a literal physical event. Read Ezekiel 47 and tell me where that manifests at.

It's important to remember that our Lord Jesus Christ is our King, and He is coming to sit upon his father David's throne and restore the kingdom of Israel like of old. Christ's faithful Church will have a part in that, even as all nations of the saved will. So it's important to not treat that future establishing as something foreign to Christ's Church.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 02:56:25
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Heard that argument before. It doesn't work because he was not talking about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. For what you're saying to be true, it would have to mean the Antichrist could corrupt even our Lord Jesus, since He is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple idea.

No it does not.

It actually illustrates what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse about deception & deceivers coming in Christ's name. Christ & the Apostles warned repeatedly about corruption of Godly truth within the Church. The Apostles themselves had to deal with it in their lifetime.

Sorry brother, but you simply have not thought that out thoroughly. If Paul meant the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 for that "temple of God", it would mean the spiritual temple IN HEAVEN could be corrupted. The 'spiritual'... temple is not a flesh temple.

It is our spirit that is represented by the 'lively stones' idea, where corruption is impossible. Those who fall away to Antichrist are simply 'cut off' from the spiritual temple and are no more the 'lively stones'.

I strongly suggest you read Ezekiel 8 (which represents what the fallen leaders of Israel do in God's house).
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 03:03:01
dpr, we are actually not that far apart on a lot of things.

You're trying to make the case that earthly Jerusalem is "the Temple of God".

I can make a very strong case that earthly Jerusalem is Babylon the Great, the mother of all harlots via the testimony of Jesus, John, Paul, Jeremiah, etc. Thus, the "vile one" be in that city.

I disagree with your first statement, not your last.

I do not see the building of another temple when the Antichrist shows up, and sits in it proclaiming himself to be God, as a true temple of God. It's just that is what Paul in 2 Thess.2 called it.

The point from Apostle Paul you are missing is just why... would he say that? i.e., why would Paul use that "temple of God" label for the Antichrist coming to deceive many of God's people? It's because it's many of God's people that are going to be deceived.

Don't forget that God is Who blinded the majority of the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles is done (Rom.11). That blindness won't be removed from the majority of them until Jesus returns. So to them, the temple they think they need and require, they see as the "temple of God", which is the idea Paul is really pointing us to.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 03:10:57
How does the man of sin defile a Temple which was built for use by apostate Jews?

How did Antiochus IV defile the 2nd temple back in 170 B.C.?

This argument that Paul's "temple of God" cannot be another physical temple in Jerusalem for the end is getting very old. You guys really aren't fooling anyone. Grasping that Paul was talking about a literal temple the Antichrist will sit in is easy to understand; our Lord Jesus covered the idea first!

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

A simple quote from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" is all our Lord Jesus had to say, and it automatically points to a physical temple! and it points to a false one coming to spiritually desolate that literal temple with the placing of an a literal idol in it. This Antiochus IV in 170-165 B.C. did in Jerusalem, in the temple (see the Jewish historian Josephus).

That is the subject of the following Scripture also:

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV

Matt 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Along with those same signs, Jesus gave the signs of His 2nd coming, and the gathering of His Church. That places these events at the END of this world, not at His 1st coming.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 04:04:10
Dear brother dpr, forgive me if I sound impolite. But after an 11 hour pause you return & rehash this entire thread. Restating all you have already said. Not picking up on where we left off discussing 2 Peter 3. By appearance of this action it seems you are not trying to convince anyone other than yourself. That your intent is to reject everything everyone has said to you so you can hold on to the end times doctrine you already have.

No one can make another believe but I had hoped you would have considered what was presented.


Much brotherly love, TT
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 04:41:31
That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24. He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse. Matt 24:33-34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things[/b], know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled.
"IF" we first consider the overall context of this discourse which includes both chapters 24 and 25, then it is clear concerning the sense in which Jesus used the words this generation especially in light of Matthew 24:5-30. We must allow God's word to defines its own meaning of the words under consideration, not Webster, or Oxford. You said that Jesus was not speaking of an evil generation as he did in Matthew 23, but that he was speaking of the generation living when these things begin to come to pass....there is some problems with that view, and it is not one but a few. Why would you want to use Webster's definition of the word generation when studying the scriptures? God is his own dictionary, and the Spirit will give us the sense in which He uses words so that we can come to an understanding of the truth. There are many words used in the scriptures that we must allow the scriptures to tell us what sense they are being used for. Bread is not always the liquid substance that we eat, it very well could mean the word of God! Israel is not always the natural seed of Abraham~it could and does often mean God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles. He could even mean Christ and does at times mean Jacob, and Jacob could be used for the elect, etc. the list can go on and on, as you know. So we follow the scriptures and trust God to reveal to us its true sense and meaning. But, to add one point, I will say that even if you took Christ meaning a generation as it is used in the common sense used by the world, and Webster, etc. You still would have a problem.

What is a generation in its common use? "It is a class of persons among people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in different stages of age of man is the same. There shall be young people, middle-aged, and old together. Or they shall be upon the stage of action. All together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation." According to Moses in Psalm 90 this last around 70 to 80 years. Now this being so, it is almost impossible that Jesus used the word generation in Matthew 24:36 in this sense for the things mentioned therein would take longer than a short generation in which all lived within.

But there is more weighted proof. Go through the Gospel's and see how Jesus ALWAYS used the word generation~it may surprise you. When used in the scriptures New or OT it for the most part ALWAYS is used to described a kind of person, NOT a period of time of men living upon the earth.
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Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."
How is wise Solomon using the word generation? He is describing a kind of person, has not one thing to do with TIME. I have several other scriptures but enough for now.

If you stay with Jesus' context in Matthew 24,25, then THAT will drive the interpretation for us. Generation is used describing the many false prophets and their follower who Jesus said would say~"I'm Christ and they shall deceive many"! Confessing with the lips that Jesus is Christ proves little without exalting Christ as Lord and his word as the final authority in conduct and doctrine.
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(God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).
Not sure just how simple it is, because there are some things hard to understand, yet it becomes more simple when we follow the Spirit's use of words and trust Him for our understanding.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: 4WD on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 05:52:48
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.


Yes I read it. But no... it doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is timing for AFTER Christ's SECOND coming, not His first. It's easy to know this because at no other time are His elect resurrected from the dead to reign with Him. Not only that, but our Lord Jesus doesn't even begin to reign over the earth until He sits upon the throne promised Him, which is His father David's throne, an earthly throne.

The first resurrection:

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


also

Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


The Kingdom over which  Christ reigns is now:

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


Christ is reigning now:

Eph 1:18  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22  And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


See also Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14; Acts 2:32-36; Heb 10:12-13.

We are reigning with Christ now:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


A basic problem you have is that you like the observant Jew today are waiting for an earthly kingdom which is not going to happen and was never intended to be.  Christ's kingdom is the spiritual kingdom and it is a spiritual reality now.  And we are reigning with Him now.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:27:41
Dear brother dpr, forgive me if I sound impolite. But after an 11 hour pause you return & rehash this entire thread. Restating all you have already said. Not picking up on where we left off discussing 2 Peter 3. By appearance of this action it seems you are not trying to convince anyone other than yourself. That your intent is to reject everything everyone has said to you so you can hold on to the end times doctrine you already have.

No one can make another believe but I had hoped you would have considered what was presented.


Much brotherly love, TT

Sounds like you're trying to make excuses.

I tried my best to answer every post directed at me, and that's exactly what I did. If you got a problem with that, that I cannot help you with.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:37:21
That 2nd part, that's really not what our Lord Jesus was pointing with mention of the word for generation in Matthew 24. He was not speaking of an evil generation like those in Matt.23 which He called vipers. He was speaking of the final generation on earth that would 'see' those signs He gave in His Olivet discourse. Matt 24:33-34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things[/b], know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV Basically, He said that generation which sees all those things won't pass till those things are fulfilled.
"IF" we first consider the overall context of this discourse which includes both chapters 24 and 25, then it is clear concerning the sense in which Jesus used the words this generation especially in light of Matthew 24:5-30. We must allow God's word to defines its own meaning of the words under consideration, not Webster, or Oxford. You said that Jesus was not speaking of an evil generation as he did in Matthew 23, but that he was speaking of the generation living when these things begin to come to pass....there is some problems with that view, and it is not one but a few. Why would you want to use Webster's definition of the word generation when studying the scriptures? God is his own dictionary, and the Spirit will give us the sense in which He uses words so that we can come to an understanding of the truth.

I did not use a Webster's dictionary. I'm educated enough to know the different meanings for the word generation. So much for your discredit attempt on that.
 

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There are many words used in the scriptures that we must allow the scriptures to tell us what sense they are being used for. Bread is not always the liquid substance that we eat, it very well could mean the word of God! Israel is not always the natural seed of Abraham~it could and does often mean God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles. He could even mean Christ and does at times mean Jacob, and Jacob could be used for the elect, etc. the list can go on and on, as you know. So we follow the scriptures and trust God to reveal to us its true sense and meaning. But, to add one point, I will say that even if you took Christ meaning a generation as it is used in the common sense used by the world, and Webster, etc. You still would have a problem.

In Matt.23 when Jesus used to the idea of a generation, He was speaking of the scribes and Pharisees that were against Him. But in Matt.24, He was speaking to His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives; the scribes and Pharisees were not... there on the Mount of Olives with them. So your attempt to place both the Matt.23 and Matt.24 chapters in the same exact context has fallen flat too.
 

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What is a generation in its common use? "It is a class of persons among people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in different stages of age of man is the same. There shall be young people, middle-aged, and old together. Or they shall be upon the stage of action. All together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation." According to Moses in Psalm 90 this last around 70 to 80 years. Now this being so, it is almost impossible that Jesus used the word generation in Matthew 24:36 in this sense for the things mentioned therein would take longer than a short generation in which all lived within.

But there is more weighted proof. Go through the Gospel's and see how Jesus ALWAYS used the word generation~it may surprise you. When used in the scriptures New or OT it for the most part ALWAYS is used to described a kind of person, NOT a period of time of men living upon the earth.
Quote
Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."
How is wise Solomon using the word generation? He is describing a kind of person, has not one thing to do with TIME. I have several other scriptures but enough for now.

If you stay with Jesus' context in Matthew 24,25, then THAT will drive the interpretation for us. Generation is used describing the many false prophets and their follower who Jesus said would say~"I'm Christ and they shall deceive many"! Confessing with the lips that Jesus is Christ proves little without exalting Christ as Lord and his word as the final authority in conduct and doctrine.
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(God's Word is very simple when you look at It straight on without men's ideas tainting it).
Not sure just how simple it is, because there are some things hard to understand, yet it becomes more simple when we follow the Spirit's use of words and trust Him for our understanding.

Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.

[/quote]
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 13:42:11
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 14:04:32

The first resurrection:

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


That wasn't the "first resurrection" of Rev.20. Our Lord Jesus is still not sitting upon David's throne today (see Matt.25 about the sheep and goats). David's throne is an earthly throne. See also Gen.49:10.

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also

Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


That passage in Romans 8 by Paul is about our spirit/soul condition, not our flesh. Our spirit with soul is mortal until we confess Christ Jesus and are baptized by The Holy Spirit becoming a "new creature". That's what that is about.

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The Kingdom over which  Christ reigns is now:

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


What you are suggesting is that our Lord Jesus' Kingdom will NEVER... be on earth, which is a ludicrous idea that does not align with Scripture of His return, like Zech.14 for one of many examples in both the Old Testament Books and the New Testament Books. When our Lord Jesus said that during His 1st coming, He was speaking of this world time, like a world age. Truly, His Kingdom is not of this present world earth age; it is of the world to come, and it will manifest on earth then.


Quote
Christ is reigning now:

Eph 1:18  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22  And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


See also Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14; Acts 2:32-36; Heb 10:12-13.

But you missed 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 which I put in a previous post about this matter. It is about His future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 when ALL... the wicked will be subdued literally under Him. Do we see that today? Of course not. Even in the Heavenly, our Lord Jesus is still not sitting upon the throne of His glory, which is David's throne, because that throne is not in Heaven; it's on earth. But is Jesus ruling over us, His Church already? Definitely, which is specifically what that Eph.1:22 verse is declaring.

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We are reigning with Christ now:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


That passage does not say we are ruling over the wicked on earth today. Your theory is misaligned with what the Scripture is actually saying.

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A basic problem you have is that you like the observant Jew today are waiting for an earthly kingdom which is not going to happen and was never intended to be.  Christ's kingdom is the spiritual kingdom and it is a spiritual reality now.  And we are reigning with Him now.

Crazy comparison. So the 1st century Church fathers were like unbelieving Jews waiting on an earthly kingdom eh? because that's who I align with about these things. What's even more amazing is how you miss completely that your doctrine is preaching an already established 'earthly kingdom' for today!

Christ's coming kingdom will be an earthly kingdom, even forever, with the new heavens and a new earth timing. He and The Father is our King, and there will... be a Kingdom on earth, as written.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 14:30:35
Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.
Been nice to you, and that does not work, so I reminded of what Paul said to the church at Corinth:
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1st Corinthians 4:21~"What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
Coming to you in love and in the spirit of meekness does not work with you, at least not as of yet. Not so much because you do not see it the way I do, but the spirit in which you come back and gave your answers. My next post will not be so much with tenderness and meekness but I will be more forceful and direct. I have several pages of outline explaining Matthew 24 discourse, that will deal with the temple (and this generation) in the sense in which Jesus meant it and in the only sense that can be used post Christ's death and resurrection.
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God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do.
You are just showing just how weak your position is by making such a silly statement as that. God did not consult with Webster on the common use of words when he gave the holy scriptures in the manner in which he gave them. The spiritual meaning DOES NOT have to agree with the common use of any word! Snakes belong to the animal class reptiles that goes on his belly, or it could refer to a spirit or even a person with two legs! God has hidden truth by one of the means of defining his own words by comparing scriptures with scriptures, here a little, there a little, not by using the Greek, or going by the common use of a word, for the bible is NOT for the common man, but one that is spiritual alive in Jesus Christ. The common man can ONLY think by the mere sound of words and its common use. Not so with the spiritual minded person. Jesus spoke in parable and hard sayings, and some just do not make sense when one tries to understand them in their common use. Hundreds of examples could be provided~how many would it take to convince you otherwise?
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John 6:54-56~"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Again:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
Jesus spoke many times in parable, proverbs and hard saying and sometimes in simple language that had hidden meaning behind it! Oh well, I will come back later and give you some points on Matthew 24 (much on the temple) to see if you have answers for~which I kinda doubt you will since I have dealt with many spirits over the years much stronger than you have shown me to be. As Arnold Schwarzenegger would say....hasta la vista baby!
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Fri Feb 17, 2017 - 15:52:14
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.

Did you miss that post?

It was 19 minutes between responses. You green avatar light was on quite awhile after I posted. Your avatar name, dpr, was listed as a viewer in this thread well after I posted, so I did not think you did.

Did it make me mad? Absolutely not. Why would it? Most my relatives on my mother's side of the family are hardcore hyper-dispensationalist who think I'm a hell bound heretic because I don't get all tingly excited & panting for breath when Netanyahu or John Hagee is on TV . If anybody was going to make me mad it would be them & even they don't. They get mad at me. I've literally seen them pull their hair with their fingers while covering their ears with their palms, squinting their eyes closed while shrieking "No! No! No!". Because they could not stand my answers to the questions they asked. Then they storm out in practically in tears. Brother, if they don't make me mad, you sure won't.

As the post shows, you made a point that was contrary to these scriptures. I kinda thought you got mad or least frustrated. Figured that was why you stopped replying & eventually logged off.

You told me on April 28 that you would never accept anything else but a pre-millennial Biblical view. I believe you. But if you are going to espouse views that many sincerely believe is contrary to scripture don't get upset when they counter your talking points with scripture.

You brought up 2 Peter 3, which happens to be one of the clearest chapters in the Bible teaching against pre-mill.

Just two verses prior to Peter's clear teaching on the Day of the Lord, Peter clearly teaches 1000 years is signified "8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

How do you deal with these things other than just flat out reject it & move on like it does not exist by declaring "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth"?


Seriously, how do you get around Peter's clear teaching & not feel like you are misleading yourself?


Do you really believe Peter was just confused or wrong & you know better?


How about John?
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

Was John confused or wrong too & you know better?


I have to ask because you said "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth".

How are you right & the scriptures are wrong?
Tell me please.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sat Feb 18, 2017 - 21:39:00
Sorry, but you sound more like a politician than a student of God's Word. How in the world can you come up with so much stuff that simply has no bearing on the Matt.24 passage using the word generation? God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do. It can mean a certain generation of time, like an era, and it can mean a certain genealogy of people. That is how it is used in God's Word. In the Matt.24 usage, it is about a certain era of people, a generation, like the difference between my father's generation and my generation. It truly is that simple.
Been nice to you, and that does not work, so I reminded of what Paul said to the church at Corinth:
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1st Corinthians 4:21~"What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
Coming to you in love and in the spirit of meekness does not work with you, at least not as of yet. Not so much because you do not see it the way I do, but the spirit in which you come back and gave your answers. My next post will not be so much with tenderness and meekness but I will be more forceful and direct. I have several pages of outline explaining Matthew 24 discourse, that will deal with the temple (and this generation) in the sense in which Jesus meant it and in the only sense that can be used post Christ's death and resurrection.
Quote
God's Word uses the word generation the same way English speaking folks do.
You are just showing just how weak your position is by making such a silly statement as that. God did not consult with Webster on the common use of words when he gave the holy scriptures in the manner in which he gave them. The spiritual meaning DOES NOT have to agree with the common use of any word! Snakes belong to the animal class reptiles that goes on his belly, or it could refer to a spirit or even a person with two legs! God has hidden truth by one of the means of defining his own words by comparing scriptures with scriptures, here a little, there a little, not by using the Greek, or going by the common use of a word, for the bible is NOT for the common man, but one that is spiritual alive in Jesus Christ. The common man can ONLY think by the mere sound of words and its common use. Not so with the spiritual minded person. Jesus spoke in parable and hard sayings, and some just do not make sense when one tries to understand them in their common use. Hundreds of examples could be provided~how many would it take to convince you otherwise?
Quote
John 6:54-56~"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
Again:
Quote
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
Jesus spoke many times in parable, proverbs and hard saying and sometimes in simple language that had hidden meaning behind it! Oh well, I will come back later and give you some points on Matthew 24 (much on the temple) to see if you have answers for~which I kinda doubt you will since I have dealt with many spirits over the years much stronger than you have shown me to be. As Arnold Schwarzenegger would say....hasta la vista baby!

Funny, you're acting like a little child now that just cannot get your way. I don't have time for childish attitude.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sat Feb 18, 2017 - 22:21:34
Think about 2 Peter 3:10. Many brethren are not aware that on the last day of this world there will be a great shaking of this old earth, and God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth. That is when this final temple by man's hands built for the tribulation will be brought down.

Not just off the earth, but "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"heavens shall pass away"
"the earth also"
"all these things shall be dissolved"

When Jesus returns there ain't gonna be nothing left.

One of the reasons I'm not seeing another 365,000 days(1000years) after the last day.


Why I "look for new heavens and a new earth"


edit:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

So is this what you're talking about? Did I miss this post, while I returned answer to ALL... of your others, and you got mad just because I missed this one?

But no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to this earth and sets foot down on the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and it will split into forming a great valley. That is the "day of the Lord" timing when He does that, which is the timing of 2 Peter 3:10.

Did you miss that post?

It was 19 minutes between responses. You green avatar light was on quite awhile after I posted. Your avatar name, dpr, was listed as a viewer in this thread well after I posted, so I did not think you did.

Did it make me mad? Absolutely not. Why would it? Most my relatives on my mother's side of the family are hardcore hyper-dispensationalist who think I'm a hell bound heretic because I don't get all tingly excited & panting for breath when Netanyahu or John Hagee is on TV . If anybody was going to make me mad it would be them & even they don't. They get mad at me. I've literally seen them pull their hair with their fingers while covering their ears with their palms, squinting their eyes closed while shrieking "No! No! No!". Because they could not stand my answers to the questions they asked. Then they storm out in practically in tears. Brother, if they don't make me mad, you sure won't.

As the post shows, you made a point that was contrary to these scriptures. I kinda thought you got mad or least frustrated. Figured that was why you stopped replying & eventually logged off.

No, the point I made was contrary to YOUR view, and not against God's Word. You simply need to look deeper in God's Word at all the examples of events taking place on earth after Christ's 2nd coming"

Zech 14:1
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
KJV

Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

Just that reveals that Christ's future Kingdom involves this earth at His 2nd coming. And notice that is "day of the Lord" timing like 2 Peter 3:10 is.

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
KJV

In light of that, it's wrong to think God is going to literally destroy the whole earth on the "day of the Lord".

Even in 2 Pet.3:10 with the KJV word "elements", it does NOT mean the earthly elements. The Greek word means a sequential order or time, like a world age. Man's works of this world, just like during Noah's day, will be destroyed...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth.


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You told me on April 28 that you would never accept anything else but a pre-millennial Biblical view. I believe you. But if you are going to espouse views that many sincerely believe is contrary to scripture don't get upset when they counter your talking points with scripture.

Does it sound like I'm the one that's upset?? That's funny if you think I am. I expressed what Scripture shows as written, that's all I did. If God's Word agree with you all's Preterist doctrines then I would be agreeing with you, but obviously that is not the case.


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You brought up 2 Peter 3, which happens to be one of the clearest chapters in the Bible teaching against pre-mill.

Just two verses prior to Peter's clear teaching on the Day of the Lord, Peter clearly teaches 1000 years is signified "8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

How do you deal with these things other than just flat out reject it & move on like it does not exist by declaring "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth"?


Seriously, how do you get around Peter's clear teaching & not feel like you are misleading yourself?


Do you really believe Peter was just confused or wrong & you know better?

One would first... have to understand what it was that Peter was teaching in 2 Peter 3. Peter was teaching about three world earth ages, 1) the world that then was, 2) the heavens and the earth which are now, and 3) the new heavens and a new earth.

The destruction event of 2 Peter 3:10 is set for the END OF THIS PRESENT WORLD on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. That just so happens to be the same day which the "day of Christ" of 2 Thess.2 begins.

You do... remember that mention of "day of Christ" by Paul in 2 Thess.2 don't you? That was included with the events of Christ's 2nd coming and His gathering of the Church. Did you not know that "day of Christ" phrase in the Greek is actually "day of the Lord"? The word for "Christ" is not Greek Christos, it is Greek kurios which means 'lord' in the Greek. Paul was pointing directly to the "day of the Lord" for the time of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of the Church in 2 Thess.2.


The "day of the Lord" timing is NOT... the new heavens and a new earth timing.
The new heavens and a new earth timing is after... the future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20 by Christ Jesus having returned and reigning on earth with His elect priests and kings. The wicked will not see... the future new heavens and a new earth. They will not be there. It is for the saved only.

So what the problem is, is with your doctrine's wrong interpretation of the timing of 2 Pet.3:10. That Zechariah 14 example above I showed makes that obvious about your doctrine's wrong understanding of the "day of the Lord" event.


Where does Christ's elect reign when He returns? On the earth:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

That's Christ's Church when He returns. Is that really... happening today on earth like it is supposed to? Of course not, not yet.

There's many Scripture references to this fact of the earth still existing and involved in Christ's future Kingdom that to deny those Scriptures by saying something like they are already history, or are happening now, when our Lord Jesus has not yet returned, doing that shows being spiritually drunken on a doctrine of men instead of heeding God's Word as written.



Quote
How about John?
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Revelation 21

Was John confused or wrong too & you know better?

I have to ask because you said "no, God is not going to fully destroy this earth".

How are you right & the scriptures are wrong?
Tell me please.

[/quote]

It is really I... that should be asking you... that question, because the Rev.21 events don't occur until AFTER the Rev.20 events of Christ's future 1,000 years reign and God's Great White Throne Judgment!

REMEMBER THE 1 CORINTHIANS 15:23-28 SCRIPTURE. (There, I put that in bold so you will remember that is something Paul gave us so we'd understand why Christ's future reign on earth is necessary before the new heavens and a new earth will come.

What you are suggesting, which is terribly un-Scriptural, is that with Christ's 2nd coming the timing jumps right to the new heavens and a new earth events, when God's Word does not show that!




Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:01:42
The reason you & so many are stuck on Revelation 20:2-3 is because of refusal to admit it is signified.

I really do not know why anyone would, as The book tells you it is signified in the very first verse.

Premillenialism lives or dies on those three verses.
To believe Premillenialism one has to believe, out of 31,201 verses, that do not imply any form of premillenialism, that these three signified verses are not signified, but completely literal.

Since the premill view says these three verses must be completely literal & not signified let's look at them.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalization of these verse means
1. There is a literal physical key to bind him with no mention of a physical lock. Not symbolic, not signified.
2. There is a literal physical pit on this earth that is so deep it has no physical bottom. Not symbolic, not signified.
3. There is a literal physical massive chain Satan will be dangling by in the literal physical bottomless pit on this earth. Not symbolic, not signified.
3. That Satan is a literal dragon & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.
4.  That Satan is also a literal serpent & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

In other words Satan is a literal dragon & a literal serpent at the same time, dangling from a massive chain, in an impossibly deep pit, with a wax seal on his head.

Also one must believe the symbolism means Satan is completely powerless since it is literal thus is limits are far greater than what this signified verse says " that he should deceive the nations no more"

Is that what you believe? This is completely literal, not symbolic, not signified?

To believe that; the first thing one has to do is reject the instructions in verse 1 of the Book of Revelation. 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The entire book is signified with symbolism & metaphor, but when we get to these three verse they are completely literal.

 ::pondering::
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:51:12
You point to Hebrews 12, I'm more than happy to look at that too. Especially since you started at verse 25 completely skipping the inconvenient part about the Heavenly Jerusalem. So lets discuss that with the entire section of scripture.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16804203_1669918999688561_1929117749688356308_o.jpg?oh=9c357fc7378762997cbf5478924973df&oe=593DD04F)

It starts by clearly showing we are not to be looking for an earthly place or reign. That is past. That was done under the law of Moses:
"18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)"

Instead that we are to be looking for a heavenly kingdom & reward:
"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Nothing about a earthly kingdom here.

Now lets move on to the remaining verses & bring it full circle with the full context of the scripture.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

You said "What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth."

With that answer to your question have to completely ignore the previous verse " 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

"once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven"

Did you also not notice this is signified in verse 27 too? "signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken" (Understanding what is signified is important)

The answer to your question is contained in verse 28 "we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved"

Which kingdom is that? I can only guess that is why you skipped over the very important previous verses;

"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

This! This is the 'unshakable', this is the "kingdom which cannot be moved",
" 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

Only "those things which cannot be shaken may remain" Paul is in perfect agreement with Peter here. He is saying the exact same thing Peter explains in 2 Peter 3.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:  29 For our God is a consuming fire.


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Hebrews 12 is the second clearest scriptures teaching against premillenialism right behind & in perfect agreement with 2 Peter 3
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 07:58:56
The reason I have not moved on to Zechariah 14 is because it has to be understood with the Light of Christ.

If one can not understand the clear teachings in the Light of the New Testament, one definitely will not understand the shadows of the Old. But once one understands the New the Old becomes much clearer. It then becomes obvious that Zechariah 14 is actually in agreement with Peter & Paul in Hebrews 12 & 2 Peter 3.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 13:55:11
The reason you & so many are stuck on Revelation 20:2-3 is because of refusal to admit it is signified.

Your supposition does not disprove the position of Rev.20 in the flow of Revelation, which flow is Christ's 2nd coming and the start of Rev.20, and then God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1,000 years, and then God's Kingdom of a new heavens and a new earth. That's the actual Scripture flow there, but there are cross-relative verses between Rev.20 & 22 also.

Rev.22:14-15 is actually Millennial timing and fits during the Rev.20 1,000 years period. It is showing the existence of the holy city, tree of life, and the wicked outside its gates, all at the same time. So how do you account for that if there is no Millennium reign by Christ over the wicked prior their destruction in the lake of fire? How do you account for Rev.3:9?

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I really do not know why anyone would, as The book tells you it is signified in the very first verse.

Premillenialism lives or dies on those three verses.
To believe Premillenialism one has to believe, out of 31,201 verses, that do not imply any form of premillenialism, that these three signified verses are not signified, but completely literal.

No friend, you cannot set some theory on what premill lives or dies on. That's just a statement that tries to persuade there is no other argument.

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Since the premill view says these three verses must be completely literal & not signified let's look at them.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalization of these verse means
1. There is a literal physical key to bind him with no mention of a physical lock. Not symbolic, not signified.


Sorry, I have to kind of laugh at that supposition, because it doesn't affect the actual Scripture one way or the other, because Satan being cast into his pit prison at the start of Christ's 1,000 years reign in Rev.20 is simply about the same heavenly prison of Isaiah 42:7 and 1 Peter 3:19 which Jesus at His resurrection went to and preached The Gospel, and led those who believed out of that prison house. I'm surprised you are not aware of the existence of that prison house in the heavenly dimension. So is it a literal... pit prison house? you bet it is. And that's actually where Satan will be locked in chains during that 1,000 years of Rev.20.


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2. There is a literal physical pit on this earth that is so deep it has no physical bottom. Not symbolic, not signified.

I have to laugh again, sorry. There's no rambling in Scripture about how deep that bottomless pit in the heavenly is. Some brethren actually believe it is in the center of the earth, literally. It's simply a place of separation in the heavenly dimension, and that's all. It's Satan's abode in the heavenly. Arguments about how deep it is are meaningless. Bottomless is simply an expression to show it has plenty... of room to house the wicked, unlike the limited amount of space a lot of earthly prisons have.

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3. There is a literal physical massive chain Satan will be dangling by in the literal physical bottomless pit on this earth. Not symbolic, not signified.

So... are you making this stuff up? I believe in a premill 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus and I've never heard this stuff before.

I see that 'chain' idea as a expression for Satan being literally locked in his pit prison when Jesus returns. Enough said.

But amill believes there is no 1,000, and scraps even the very Scripture (Rev.20) which shows Satan's destruction into the future "lake of fire". So amill believes Satan is NEVER destroyed. This is a very valid statement about the amill position, because if Rev.20 is not for the time immediately after Christ's 2nd coming and prior to the new heavens and a new earth, then it literally means Satan is left loose and never punished, his sentence never actually carried out. That's what happens when amill tries to omit the events and timing of the Rev.20 chapter.

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3. That Satan is a literal dragon & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

You're just dreaming this stuff up. God's Word tells us Satan is a 'cherub', a heavenly being (Ezek.28). God created him perfect in his ways until he rebelled against Him. Dragon and serpent are just two of Satan's many titles.

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4.  That Satan is also a literal serpent & not a fallen angel. Not symbolic, not signified.

Covered that false supposition already above.


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In other words Satan is a literal dragon & a literal serpent at the same time, dangling from a massive chain, in an impossibly deep pit, with a wax seal on his head.

Funny!


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Also one must believe the symbolism means Satan is completely powerless since it is literal thus is limits are far greater than what this signified verse says " that he should deceive the nations no more"

I would be very... careful with those above kind of words, because you're not really mocking me nor those who believe Rev.20 as written about Christ's future 1,000 years reign. You are mocking our Heavenly Father with that, because He showed us in Scripture like Job and Isaiah that He controls what Satan can and cannot do. He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. So you better believe God has power to lock Satan into his pit prison for that 1,000 years declared in Rev.20. God has the power to lock the kings of the earth in that pit with... Satan during that time too (as per the Book of Isaiah. Might want to read it sometime).

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Is that what you believe? This is completely literal, not symbolic, not signified?

Is Satan being locked in his pit prison during the 1,000 years like Rev.20 shows literal? Yes, it is. Will there be some literal lock and chain put on him in that pit? Could be, we'll have to wait and see if it happens exactly like those verses show. The main point of those verses though, is that we 'know', at that time of Christ's 2nd coming, Satan is going to then be literally bound in his pit prison. And he will be loosed out of it after the 1,000 years:

Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV


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To believe that; the first thing one has to do is reject the instructions in verse 1 of the Book of Revelation. 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The entire book is signified with symbolism & metaphor, but when we get to these three verse they are completely literal.

 ::pondering::

I have always considered it silly to try and base a whole end time doctrine about the end of days on simple phrases like "last days", "shortly come to pass", etc. You can't receive anything about the order of events laid out in Revelation with that, and thus it does not point even where to begin. It is an 'expression' for 'soon', and that's it. How soon? Who knows?!

Only God knows! What we are supposed to be doing, which Christ Jesus commanded us, is to be watching. And Apostle Paul showed we need to understand the times and the seasons of Christ's 2nd coming (1 Thess.5).
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:25:20
You point to Hebrews 12, I'm more than happy to look at that too. Especially since you started at verse 25 completely skipping the inconvenient part about the Heavenly Jerusalem. So lets discuss that with the entire section of scripture.

I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first. What about that Scripture, which is a "day of the Lord" event? It appears you are wanting to omit that Scripture from our discussion.


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(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16804203_1669918999688561_1929117749688356308_o.jpg?oh=9c357fc7378762997cbf5478924973df&oe=593DD04F)

It starts by clearly showing we are not to be looking for an earthly place or reign. That is past. That was done under the law of Moses:
"18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)"

Instead that we are to be looking for a heavenly kingdom & reward:
"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Nothing about a earthly kingdom here.

I really wish you understood more of the Scriptures. What type... of body is the resurrection body, do you think? Paul showed us it is a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the "image of the heavenly". He also said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in that 1 Cor.15 chapter. So what about the three men of Genesis 18, one of them being our Lord back in OT time? that appeared as 'men', and ate what Abraham prepared for them. Two of them went to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah to bring him and his out. The sodomites saw them as men and wanted Lot to bring them outside so they could Biblically 'know' them. And, they ate earthly food which Lot prepared for them. The Israelites in the wilderness ate manna, food that dropped down from Heaven. There were sightings of angels on earth throughout God's Word. So how can that happen... on earth? How is it the angels can eat our earthly food?

That is where many brethren are lacking in their Bible study, and instead have just defaulted to men's doctrines. The Biblical position is that the spiritual body type is able to live and walk upon the earth. Even the Book of Job about Satan's answer to God reveals this. Many just don't understand that the Heavenly dimension is simply behind a veil. We cannot see it unless God allows us to (2 Kings 6 of what Elisha's servant saw).

On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that veil of the Heavenly is going to be removed, for everyone on earth. Not only will the saints still alive on earth be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" on that day of the Lord, but the wicked still on earth will be changed too (Isaiah 25). But like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, to have eternal life in Christ, one's body of corruption must be made into incorruption, and this mortal, meaning the soul, must put on immortality. The wicked will not have put on immortality at Christ's coming. They will still be liable to perish in the lake of fire after His coming. But we all... will be in bodies of incorruption, i.e., the "spiritual body" which Paul taught is the resurrection body.


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Now lets move on to the remaining verses & bring it full circle with the full context of the scripture.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

You said "What are those things which cannot be shaken that will remain? God's creation, the earth."

With that answer to your question have to completely ignore the previous verse " 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

"once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven"

Did you also not notice this is signified in verse 27 too? "signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken" (Understanding what is signified is important)

The answer to your question is contained in verse 28 "we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved"

Which kingdom is that? I can only guess that is why you skipped over the very important previous verses;

"22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

This! This is the 'unshakable', this is the "kingdom which cannot be moved",
" 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,"

Only "those things which cannot be shaken may remain" Paul is in perfect agreement with Peter here. He is saying the exact same thing Peter explains in 2 Peter 3.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:  29 For our God is a consuming fire.


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Hebrews 12 is the second clearest scriptures teaching against premillenialism right behind & in perfect agreement with 2 Peter 3

And you missed the Biblical fact that the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth! The earthly and the heavenly dimensions are going to be put together, again. Or did you miss the fact of Gen.2 about God's River in His Garden of Eden was once upon this old earth? God's River in Gen.2 flowed out of His Garden and fed four other rivers upon the earth, TWO of them which still exist today on earth!

That is why God is not only going to shake the earth, again, but heaven also! The Heavenly is coming HERE! And you haven't a clue of it, how sad.

(And when... did He first shake the earth, anyway?) If you are not aware of that, then that's why you wouldn't be aware of what I just said either.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 14:53:27
The reason I have not moved on to Zechariah 14 is because it has to be understood with the Light of Christ.

If one can not understand the clear teachings in the Light of the New Testament, one definitely will not understand the shadows of the Old. But once one understands the New the Old becomes much clearer. It then becomes obvious that Zechariah 14 is actually in agreement with Peter & Paul in Hebrews 12 & 2 Peter 3.

Sounds like a cop out to me. The Zechariah 14 scripture is easy to understand for anyone who has studied all their Bible. And I thought that was... our level of understanding already here? I've studied all of God's Word, haven't you?

So far, your supposition on Hebrews 12 definitely does NOT... align with Zecharian 14, nor 2 Peter 3. I mean, there are other NT Scriptures than 2 Pet.3 that say nothing of a 1,000 year Millennium prior to God's final judgment, but that doesn't mean there is no Millennium, especially when Rev.20, Zech.14, and Ezek.40-47 give finite details of it. (2 Pet.3 does actually 'hint' to the Millennium).

But in reality as written, 2 Pet.3 DOES... reveal the future 1,000 year Millennium period...

2 Peter 3:7-8
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV

The heavens and the earth which are now are reserved unto fire against what... events? - against the day of JUDGMENT AND PERIDITION of ungodly men.

So what day... is that when Satan and the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire" per Rev.20? Peter is outlining that Rev.20 event right here!!! It is when the wicked perish, is when the day of God's Judgement is.

Notice what Peter says next in conjunction with that 'day'...

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

THERE is the 1,000 years of Rev.20. And the reason for that period Peter even explained, being in the next verse...

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

The "day of the Lord" is the beginning... of Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth over all, including the wicked, even the wicked dead of the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

That also is the "day of Christ" which Apostle Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2 linked with the day of Christ's return and gathering of His Church. The phrase Paul actually said there was "day of the Lord" per the actual Greek word kurios. You never commented on that point.

The OT prophets also had much to say about the "day of the Lord" events. That is what both Apostles Paul and Peter were preaching from about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night".

So Zechariah 14, which begins with mention of the "day of the Lord" timing, should not be some kind of big Bible mystery like your trying... to make it. Usually those who try to turn Scriptures into some huge mystery it means they've got an agenda from men and doctrines of men to push instead of heeding the simplicity of the scripture as written.

The Zech.14 timing is the day of Christ's 2nd coming, which is the "day of the Lord" according to Paul and Peter and Christ (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15). His reign over all the earth is declared there, and even survivors of those nations that came up against Israel on the last day of this world being made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING (Jesus Christ), or no rains would be upon their lands. That is a direct parallel to the Millennium events of Rev.20, and the waters flowing out of Jerusalem spoken of is a direct reference to God's River in Ezekiel 47 and Revelation.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:00:56
.....
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:01:10
Funny, you're acting like a little child now that just cannot get your way. I don't have time for childish attitude.
Just got back from out of town, and see that you been busy, good, do not go anywhere I'll be here tomorrow morning the Lord willing.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:03:17
I'm not retired, so you guys shouldn't think that I'm ignoring you just because I may not respond after a day or two.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:03:26
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

And you can rationalize away scripture to mean anything you want it to.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:05:11
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:11:08
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah

Part of it is. The children of God now present on this earth who reign now with Christ. But the full revealing is in the new heaven & new earth at the last day when it is said "Behold, I make all things new."
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:22:06
the Heavenly is going to be revealed... right HERE on earth! This is where the 'heavenly Jerusalem' will be, on earth!

Just keep repeating that to yourself.
Brother Tim, new Jerusalem is on earth NOW, but he does not know it. God is going to reveal her in his own time~Selah

Part of it is. The children of God now present on this earth who reign now with Christ. But the full revealing is in the new heaven & new earth at the last day when it is said "Behold, I make all things new."

Right now, David's throne is still here on earth, where it will remain. Christ's enemies have tried to destroy it ever since it was re-established again after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and Zedekiah's son heirs. With the establishing of that throne eventually came the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It and The Gospel, are tied together in Christ, forevermore.

As per Genesis 49:10, one of the house of David of the tribe of Judah as God promised, still sits upon that throne today. It is an earthly throne. It is reserved for our Lord Jesus when He returns to this earth where He ascended to Heaven from (Acts 1; Zech.14). This is how Christ's Kingdom is going to be here, on earth, at His coming.

In 1 Thess.4, Apostle Paul showed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, He gathers the "asleep" saints in heaven that He brings with Him. On His descent to this earth, He gathers the remaining saints still alive on earth with them. So there are two groups of saints He gathers from two different locations on that day. With neither one of them does He turn around and go back into Heaven with them. Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 finish describing the 'destination' of His descent to this earth at His coming. It is to Jerusalem on earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:26:53
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16700658_1662566303757164_4036212133739381879_o.jpg?oh=94fadbab53d0c9a87ba616acd13816c2&oe=58FF7420)

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Sun Feb 19, 2017 - 15:45:02
I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first.
I thought it might be helpful to provide some additional scriptures to demonstrate that the prophecy in Zech. has indeed been fulfilled already and is intimately related to the spiritual restoration of the Israel of God (Jews and Gentiles together as one body in Christ).  There are a lot of different aspects to this prophecy so I will try to deal with the major ones in separate threads instead of putting them all together in one.  The first thing that we must understand is that Zech. 14 is a continuation of the previous two chapters,  (much like Matthew 24,25 is ONE continuously discourse) so it is necessary to read 12-14 all together to get the full context of the prophecy.  The following passages from each of these three chapters let us know without a doubt what time period is in view for the entire prophecy:
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Zechariah 12:10~"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
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Zechariah 13:1,2~"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."
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Zechariah 14:8,9~"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
All three of these passages are talking about~ the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  And the spiritual pictures that God paints for us all throughout His word to demonstrate this are absolutely amazing.
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Exodus 17:5,6~"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel."
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1st Corinthians 10:1-4~"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
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John 10:4~Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
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John 4:14~"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
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John 7:37-39~"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified."
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Luke 24:25-27~"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
Christ is the rock that had to be smitten so that the living water could flow.  The living water is the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the day of Pentecost.  Notice that John 7:39 says that "the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified".  Jesus had to be glorified (the rock had to be smitten) in order for the Holy Spirit to be given (the living water begins to flow).  This happened at the crossThis is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" poured upon the house of David in Zechariah 12:10; this is the "fountain opened to the house of David" in Zechariah 13:1; this is the "living waters" flowing out from Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:8 (Jerusalem represents Christ); and this is the "washing of regeneration" that took away the sins and iniquity of the Israel of God.  As it is written:
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Titus 3:4-7~"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
This is why the first two verses of Zech. 13 speak of the fountain being "for sin and for uncleanness" and also of the idols being cut off from the land.  This speaks of the purification of God's people who are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and the washing of water through the Holy Spirit.
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Hebrews 10:19-22~"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
This entire prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago at the crucifixion of Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which followed.  What about when Zechariah 12:10 says "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him"?  Many people say that this hasn't been fulfilled yet, and that it is unmistakably a still future event.  What does God say?
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John 19:33-37~
"But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
I will believe God over a confused millennialist. God says that it was fulfilled at the cross. Let God be true, but every man a liar! What about the one Lord over all the earth in Zechariah 14:9?
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Ephesians 4:4-6~There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 04:32:55
Now that we have seen the significance of the living water and what it represents, I would like to take a closer look at how this living water relates to the restoration of Israel.
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Zechariah 14:8~ "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be
What is the significance of these living waters (the Holy Spirit) going out to the "former sea…and the hinder sea”?  First of all, we need to find out how God defines the sea in spiritual terms.
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Isaiah 57:20,21~But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
Again:
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James 1:5-8~If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
And again:
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Jude 1:4,12 and 13~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
There are are more to shut the mouths of gainsayers:
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Daniel 7:1-3~"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another."
I have I leaned that one cannot give too many, so here's more:
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Revelation 13:1~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
I could give many more examples, but this should be sufficient.  It is very clear that God uses the sea to typify the wicked people of the world who are under Satan’s control.  So, what does it mean when we see the living waters flowing into the former sea and the hinder sea?  This passage from Ezekiel 47 should explain:
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Ezekiel 47:1-12~"Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."
Chapter 47 of Ezekiel is one of the most glorious spiritual pictures of God’s plan of salvation in all of scripture, and it further confirms the fact that the passages in these last 9 chapters of Ezekiel are not to be taken literally, but are indeed very spiritual in nature.  The house (the temple described in the previous chapters) that Ezekiel sees with the river of water issuing out of it and flowing into the desert and the sea, healing the waters of the sea and bringing life to the fish of the sea, is an incredible spiritual picture of Christ (the true temple of God), the rock that had to be smitten so that the living waters (the Holy Spirit) could flow into all of the dead and barren places of the world, bringing life.  It is the same picture that we see in Zechariah 14:8 of the living waters going out of Jerusalem into the former sea and the hinder sea.  Notice that Ezekiel 47 speaks of these healing waters bringing life to the fish of the sea, and fishermen standing on the banks of the river to draw this great multitude of fish out of the great sea (which again symbolizes the wicked people of the world) (Matthew 13:47-49!).  Jesus Christ Himself lets us know that this passage is a spiritual picture when He calls His disciples and tells them that He will make them fishers of men.
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Mark 1:16-18~"Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him."
Again:
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John 21:1-6~"After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself. There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No. And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes."
Thus indicating that it is only by the power and presence of Christ that we, his followers, can draw men out of this wicked world, the kingdom of Satan (symbolized by the sea).  I will show two more passages of scripture to complete the picture:
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Revelation 21:1~"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Is John saying that there is no water in the new heaven and new earth? Absolutely not!  He is saying there is no more wickedness. If we stay with the scriptures and God's overall use of it symbolizing the wicked.
Quote
Revelation 22:1,2~"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
Does this sound familiar?  It should.  Read Ezekiel 47 again, and compare Revelation 22:2 with Ezekiel 47:12.  Just as I said before, these passages are not to be understood in a literal sense.  They are spiritual pictures describing the cleansing and purification from sin that is brought about by the Holy Spirit emanating from Jesus Christ.  So, I ask the question again~why the former sea and the hinder sea?  The answer is simple.  It is the same reason that Hosea spoke of the joining of Judah and Israel.
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Hosea 1:9-11~"Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."
Again:
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Hosea 2:21-23~"And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
Hosea again said:
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Hosea 3:4,5~"For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."
Paul said:
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Romans 9:22-26~"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
Verses 25 & 26 of Romans chapter 9 take the prophecies from Hosea 1 & 2 (which seemingly spoke about the literal nation of Israel~but Paul reveals to us that Hosea was speaking about Jews AND Gentiles coming together AS ONE Israel of God), quote them word for word, and then tells us that this was speaking about the Gentiles.  Please pay careful attention to what is happening here.  This is not my interpretation of these passages.  This is what God has plainly declared in His word.  God applies a spiritual interpretation to these words that He inspired His prophet Hosea to write, indicating to us that the prophecy is ultimately fulfilled by the Gentiles coming into Christ along with the remnant of Jews. In this prophecy in Hosea (and others like it in the OT), Judah (the southern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from the nation of Israel, and Israel (the northern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from all of the Gentile nations.  You have to understand that God does everything for a reason.  There is nothing arbitrary or insignificant about His inspired word or His providential control of history.  When He split the kingdom in two, He began to use this event to speak symbolically about the two types of people that He has in this world, those from the Jewish nation, and those from the Gentile nations.  This is what the kingdoms of Judah and Israel symbolized - the Jews and the Gentiles.  The language that we see in the OT about re-gathering the dispersed of the northern kingdom of Israel ultimately has its fulfillment in the NT church age with the remnant of the Gentile nations being brought into the body of Christ along with the remnant of the Jewish nation to form the Church.  God's people are now one, with one shepherd and King over them, the Lord Jesus Christ (referred to as "David their king" in Hosea 3:5).  Ezekiel speaks of the exact same idea when he prophecies of the joining of the two sticks. This is the great mystery hidden from the Jews in Jesus' days and still even now in our own days the veil is still there with many.
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Ezekiel 37:16,17...20-24~"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand........And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."
And once more, Jesus Christ Himself assures us of the spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy:
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John 10:14-16~"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Here is the fulfillment of the prophecy~ one fold (Jew and Gentile together) with one shepherd over them, "David their king", the Lord Jesus Christ.  The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace, cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God from their fall in Adam..., all those chosen from the foundation of the world (Jew and Gentile alike). I hope you can see that all of the prophecies that we have looked at so far were fulfilled in Jesus Christ at the cross, and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that followed.

This is why Zechariah 14:8 refers to the former sea and the hinder sea.  It is a reference to the Jews and Gentiles who were both cleansed and brought to life by the Holy Spirit, forming one, unified Israel of God~the body of Christ.  This is the TRUE restoration of Israel.  It has absolutely nothing to do with that nation in the Middle East which has been in continuous rebellion against God for the last 2000 years.  It has everything to do with the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham that all nations of the earth would be blessed through his seed (Jesus Christ)~the promise of the Holy Spirit.  All of God's children say amen and amen!

I apologize for the length of this post.  I will try to keep them shorter from now on.  I just wanted to make sure that no one has any doubts about the truth of the restoration of the TRUE Israel of God.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: 4WD on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 04:54:06
::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

That was excellent RB.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 08:00:31
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16700658_1662566303757164_4036212133739381879_o.jpg?oh=94fadbab53d0c9a87ba616acd13816c2&oe=58FF7420)

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.
Not only is God revealing of another place, but he also is revealing who the true Israel of God are~
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1st Chron. 17:9~"Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,"
It's the generation of "the righteous" they are the true children of the Israel of God.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 08:03:25
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16700658_1662566303757164_4036212133739381879_o.jpg?oh=94fadbab53d0c9a87ba616acd13816c2&oe=58FF7420)

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.
Not only is God revealing of another place, but he also is revealing who the true Israel of God are~
Quote
1st Chron. 10:9~"Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,"
It's the generation of "the righteous" they are the true children of the Israel of God.
Absolutely!!
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:20:50
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:25:32
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:29:13
I actually pointed you to Zechariah 14 first.
I thought it might be helpful to provide some additional scriptures to demonstrate that the prophecy in Zech. has indeed been fulfilled already and is intimately related to the spiritual restoration of the Israel of God (Jews and Gentiles together as one body in Christ).  There are a lot of different aspects to this prophecy so I will try to deal with the major ones in separate threads instead of putting them all together in one.  The first thing that we must understand is that Zech. 14 is a continuation of the previous two chapters,  (much like Matthew 24,25 is ONE continuously discourse) so it is necessary to read 12-14 all together to get the full context of the prophecy. 
....

So this was fulfilled already huh?

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

So you think the orthodox unbelieving Jews in the nation of Israel today represents God's restoration of Israel per these Zechariah chapters?

Sorry to say, that is a ludicrous idea. The orthodox Jews in the majority today STILL do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.


Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:44:31
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
....

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Oh, I don't agree you with at all on its 'location', for you no doubt think our Lord Jesus is already sitting upon David's throne in Heaven, when per God's Word He is actually sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne today. He is still yet to inherit the throne of David, for He must return here ON EARTH to do that, since David's throne is an EARTHLY throne, not a heavenly one.

Eph 1:20
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV

Eph 2:5-9
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV

Eph 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
KJV


For what you believe per Preterist doctrines of men to be true, then NONE of that above should point to any future fulfillment. It should be done already at Christ's 1st coming.

No one is yet... sitting with Christ in His throne, only the Promise exists today, it is yet to be fulfilled. Like Paul said in Ephesians, our spirit only is raised to sit in "heavenly places" with Christ. He did not say in Christ's throne with Him. The Rev.3:21 Scripture is still future for after Christ's 2nd coming.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 10:57:26
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.

Those doctrines of men are just as bad as the pre-trib rapture doctrines of Darby, et al. We are to rightly divide God's Word in study; arbitrarily assigning events that have yet to occur today into the past just so you can keep a doctrine of men is not how one rightly divides God's Word.

You Preterists here will make fine globalists, because that's obviously what Preterist doctrines are designed to lead the deceived into. It makes it easy to support man's forming of a "one world government" system and think that Messiah is now over it.

The reality though is... the orthodox Jews are still awaiting the coming of Messiah. They do not believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, so that should be easy to know that God still has a lot of work to do with them yet, that those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final.

The other reality today is that many in Christ's Church today are falling away like Paul warned in 2 Thess.2. The nation alignment of Ezek.38 that will come against Israel is almost complete today, and those against Christ through their political systems have made the house of David of none effect today, and even worse, has drafted some of the house of David through trickery into participating with the false globalist one world government movement.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:02:30
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.


Please do not make false accusations. RB & I both have been extremely clear we are not Preterists.

We both as well as others who have posted in this thread hold to the ancient Amillennial position that has been with the Church from the beginning. A position that is also orthodox reformed theology as it is the position of the Reformers & the Protestant Reformation.

http://youtu.be/zCnM_VtYeq8 (http://youtu.be/zCnM_VtYeq8)
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 11:27:49
You might want to study the Davidic Covenant.
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16700658_1662566303757164_4036212133739381879_o.jpg?oh=94fadbab53d0c9a87ba616acd13816c2&oe=58FF7420)

Pay close attention to that highlighted verse.


God is telling David, the king of all of Israel, of another place.

Yeah, and David's throne would be established forever with one of David's seed sitting upon it like 2 Samuel 7 also says.

Glad you agree. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Just in case there may be misunderstanding, I'll clarify who that seed is. I cited Revelation 3 Now I will cite - Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Especially considering this statement:
There is prophecy even in the Book of Genesis specifically for the last days before Christ's 2nd coming. It's Genesis 49 where Jacob told his twelve sons to gather around and he would tell them what would befall them in the last days.

So statements like the majority of the Old Testament Books are old history reveals someone who really isn't studied. It's really a cop out showing laziness in The Word, and it's also how so many of men's traditions get started.

In the light of your statements let's look at the prophecy;
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16804116_1671488096198318_2624246483740654285_o.jpg?oh=ce5c8b0659fb78914d60dd26506bcc81&oe=5947DD14)
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16804311_1671488442864950_406117973574783223_o.jpg?oh=dcdc367dd434ebbc88475767da2f1cc5&oe=594A4065)

" The sceptre shall not depart from Judah ... until Shiloh come"

The sceptre signifying the Kingship which was fufilled in David per the Davidic covenant.

Now who is Shiloh?
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16797194_1671488626198265_1543060791177289923_o.jpg?oh=db1ec52c2e567959e274a481dbd20d23&oe=59487016)

As we can see it is a unique & special noun used only once in the entire Bible meaning "he whose it is" or better stated "to whom it rightfully belongs" signifying the Messiah, Jesus Christ

Well, Shiloh has come.
He holds the scepter & the staff.

He is the High Priest, the mediator of the New Covenant.
And most importantly He has claimed what is his. He is king.

Not only King, but King of kings & Lord of lords.

The reign of Jesus Christ is now & forever more.

"unto him shall the gathering of the people be"
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

And all God's children say 'Amen!'
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 14:58:23
So you think the orthodox unbelieving Jews in the nation of Israel today represents God's restoration of Israel per these Zechariah chapters? Sorry to say, that is a ludicrous idea. The orthodox Jews in the majority today STILL do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.
I never said that~it's indeed pitiful and speaks very low of your understanding if that is what you gathered by reading my two posts. Show me how you came to that conclusion~it's beyond me that you did. You said:
Quote
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.
Again your comprehension of spiritual truth is much to be desired~and maybe you should re-think of entering into a debate with those who are able to defend the scriptures and their position~for you surely cannot as of yet. I despise Preterism for they stamp everything "FULFILLED 70 A.D.!" I'm an Amill "Idealist' according to those who understand the different schools of Eschatology~and you sir certainly do not if you think for one second that I'm a Preterist. Ask a Preterist who are so, if Red Baker is one, they would laugh at you. Personally, I think you are just using anything now to keep from defending your beliefs with us because you see the hand writing on the wall~so do as you like, no lost on my part.
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The reality though is... the orthodox Jews are still awaiting the coming of Messiah. They do not believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, so that should be easy to know that God still has a lot of work to do with them yet, that those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final.
Sir, I care little about what orthodox Jews believe or do not believe~it is men like you and the Pre-mill gang that are misleading them into thinking that Jesus Christ will sit upon a literal throne in a literal city of Jerusalem in the future!
Quote
those OT prophecies God gave them have yet to manifest in final
Those scriptures in truth are truly for the true Israel of God, not for the natural seed of Abraham~those are not the children of God's promises. Let Paul tell us:
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Romans 9:6-8~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
So clear!
Quote
The other reality today is that many in Christ's Church today are falling away like Paul warned in 2 Thess.2. The nation alignment of Ezek.38 that will come against Israel is almost complete today
Agree concerning the falling away, yet you fail to understand that the great tribulation is spiritual in nature and is coming against the NT JERUSALEM, which is the professing church of the living God, NOT against a nation in the middle east that many believe is God's chosen people, but ARE NOT. Just as Jerusalem and Juda of old suffered great tribulation for their rejecting of God and corrupted his OT temple, even so, will the NT professing people of God DO LIKEWISE~ and instead of true worshippers filling the NT temple with true worshippers, it will be a place of abomination where the man of sin will sit and reign (the Joel Osteen's of the world, etc.)  that God WILL make desolate very soon. We who are in Judea must FLEE unto the mountains, (a place of safety from God's impending judgment) which I did many years ago when I left the professing churches in this world.
Quote
those against Christ through their political systems have made the house of David of none effect today, and even worse, has drafted some of the house of David through trickery into participating with the false globalist one world government movement.
I have no idea what you are talking about since you are basing what you are saying of a false understanding of eschatology.
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Mon Feb 20, 2017 - 15:05:17
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience to continue these arguments here with the Preterist doctrines of men.
You should had been more honest and said:
Quote
Sorry guys, I don't have the patience truth to continue these arguments
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 04:58:51

What About Zechariah 14?


Zechariah chapter 14 clearly connects the feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how living waters would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not saying that literally every believer in the world has to go to the middle east and visit Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works. There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, many look at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He is the Living water and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished. But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event. Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is not a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers. And it's not talking about a literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely because Christ has bound Satan, and delivered them from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths.  This is the manner in which God hides mysteries in his word.

God metaphorically calls His people Lamps, Branches, Fishermen, Olive Trees, Stones, etc. This is to show some characteristic or aspect of these things in them. So why should anyone be taken back when God metaphorically call His people them Jerusalem (The holy city) and Israel (the holy nation)? For in this Israel alone will saints "dwell in safely." These things have nothing to do with the literal land/nation Israel. It's a Covenant with an Israel far superior to any plot of land, genealogical line, or political nation. Christ confirmed a Covenant of Grace, not of race. And it's a Covenant securing an inheritance far more secure than any handful of dirt in the middle east. It's a kingdom that is far more precious and eternal than any worldly kingdom or reign on earth could ever be. It's the peace and security of a people who are dwelling with God. The nation of Israel was used as the type, and thus was a figure of this. Time will not allow us to give many proofs of this, but could if needed.
    
I was asked this week concerning these verses that are in Zechariah 14~so let us consider some.
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Zechariah 14:18~"And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."
Zechariah chapter 14 is a whole study in itself (too much to get into here), but briefly, this plague was the curse that came upon the children of Israel because of their rejection of Christ. They are spiritually the families of Egypt ( See Revelation 11:8) who remain in bondage, and if they do not come to Christ (come up to Jerusalem) to keep the feast of Tabernacles, they shall not receive the rain. In other words, those who fail to get to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of Tabernacles will have no rain. For from Jerusalem is the "only place" to find these living waters.

The Jews who rejected Christ were blinded (in part), and that is what Zechariah means when he declares that their eyes consume away in their holes. That is spiritual language denoting that they will lose their sight, or that they have "no eyes" with which to see. It's not a prophecy foretelling a time when people's eyes will "physically" disappear from their sockets, but it prophesies they will spiritually not have eyes. And indeed, I am amazed that so many theologians actually think that all of this is literal. So much so that they are incredulous that anyone would even suggest that God speaks metaphorically there. They react "as if" such an idea is foreign to the Bible, (it IS to them) when in fact it is "normative." Zechariah is a prophecy that the elect could be comforted because their warfare with God was accomplished, because Christ has brought peace and safety. This occurred at the cross.
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Zechariah 14:16~"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against JERUSALEM shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be, that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, even upon them Shall be No Rain."
Those who came up to warfare against Jerusalem were all the unsaved. This remnant who are left are those that was born of God. For them, their "warfare" accomplished or finished (Isaiah 40:2) because Christ has paid for their sins. The saved now spiritually go up to worship this King and keep the law of the feast of Tabernacles (a wonderful study of its own!). Christ is that King of kings and Lord of hosts that Zechariah says we annually go up to in the Holy City (as was the everlasting law required in Leviticus). For some theologians to actually think God would re-institute a "literal or physical" ceremonial Old Testament law that was fulfilled in the death of Christ, is quite a reckless eschatology. Saints from every nation (when we become saved) are coming up to the Holy City and keeping the feast of Tabernacles. They don't come up to a literal mountain in Israel, or an earthly city Jerusalem, or to a literal Temple made with hands. But in Christ they've come to a City whose builder and maker is God and wherein dwelleth righteousness.
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Hebrews 12:22-24~ "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
Praise be to God! This is the Holy City Jerusalem that the children of God have come unto, not a geographical location in the middle east. In this heavenly city we keep the feast of Tabernacles for ever, as required by law. We are tabernacling in Christ, who has brought fulfillment. The children of God are the families of the earth whom Zechariah says worship Him, and call Him king of all the earth. Being the true spiritual Israel of God, they are those who have been delivered from bondage, and are keeping the feast. The unbelievers (those not confirmed by the blood of the New Covenant with Israel) are the ones who do not come up to that Holy City and who do not keep the feast of Tabernacles. And the reason, of course, is that they are still spiritually children of Egypt who were not brought out of the land of bondage. They're still there. They don't serve this king of Kings, they serve their master in the house of bondage. And their servitude is slavery to sin (John 8:33-34). Their judgement for sin is that they shall have no rain.
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Isaiah 5:6-7~ "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry."
No rain is symbolism of the judgement of God upon Israel. And this is precisely what God did to Israel when He left their house desolate by His death on the cross.
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Micah 5:7~"And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men."
The remnant or
believers of Israel are those who will water the earth as the rain from God. Jesus Himself said, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living waters. i.e., they receive the rain of salvation and they go forth and teaching others as showers upon the grass. But Zechariah is fulfilled in that, "on these who won't come up to the Holy City, there shall be no rain." There will be no showers of Blessings, the cleansing rain, and no living waters which Christ poured upon all those who go up to worship the King.
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Psalms 68:9~"Thou O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst Confirm Thine inheritance, when it was weary."
The "Confirming of the Covenant" one week is with living waters rained down upon the saints. Those who don't keep the week of the feast of Tabernacles shall not receive this rain. They have no part in the confirmation of the inheritance accomplished by Christ, wherein there is the rain for the Children of God. Again, this is demonstrating that the Lord's people are those keeping the feast of Tabernacles in Christ. This is the week Daniel 9 said Messiah would confirm. It is the covenant week He strengthened in His own Blood at the cross (Gal. 3:17, Hebrews 9:17). It's the entire New Covenant period from Christ's feast of sowing in the field, to the end of world harvest and the gathering out of the field. It's from our deliverance from bondage, to our entrance into the promised land when we receive our inheritance.
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1st Peter 1:3-7~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
As we saw in Zechariah, it is in Christ that we greatly rejoice in keeping the feast of Tabernacles on our way to the promised inheritance. This is why we greatly rejoice and go up to the Holy City and keep the feast of Tabernacles. Tabernacles is the only feast that God gave specific instructions to His people to rejoice at. For we are as a city whose warfare is ended, and whose iniquity has been pardoned. A City made Holy by the descending of Christ to sanctify it and make it the Holy place. A City that dwells so safely and securely that the gates of Hell cannot ever prevail over it. For this is the Holy city that shall remain forever.

It is this deeper, fuller, spiritual significance of the feast of Tabernacles that so many theologians miss. It was never just designed to be a simple memorial celebration, but a prophecy that holds a very spiritual meaning of ingathering and of harvest. The prophet Zechariah makes that very clear when His words are compared with scripture and interpreted in "light" of scripture. When our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ came from heaven with living waters to be king, and to reign on the throne of David, He fulfilled Zechariah's prophecy of this.
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John 4:10,14~"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water............But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
That is the day that living waters went forth from Jerusalem. By His death and ascension to that throne, we are brought out of bondage, and God tabernacles with us in the wilderness of this world until the time we reach the promised inheritance.
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Zechariah 14:8-9~"And it shall be in that day that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. and the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one."
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Ephesians 4:5-6"One Lord and One faith, One baptism, One God and father of All, who is above all and through all, and in you all."
The Prophecy of one lord and one king, and in us all, is thus fulfilled. The day that living waters went out from Jerusalem has come in the Lord. It's not a future prophecy of keeping a feast of Tabernacles that would deny Christ has already come, but it's a fulfilled (completed) prophecy. He is the living water that went out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea, in summer and in winter. This is the beginning of the Messianic age because salvation goes forth in Christ to both Jew and Gentile, and in all seasons. Christ is the water whereby if any man shall drink, He shall have eternal life and never die. Nor shall he ever thirst again.

The feast of Tabernacles is spoken about in John chapter seven. The week of this feast in rejoicing because of God's deliverance ushers in the messianic age, followed by the eighth day (twenty-second of Tishri), which is the greatest day of the feast. This holy convocation (Leviticus 23:36) on the eighth day "signified" a new day, a new Sabbath day (Sunday) in which our works would end, old things are passed away and made new in Christ (Leviticus 23:35-36; 2nd Corinthians 5:17. etc. ). John tells us of this eighth day.
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John 7:37-42~"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"
The people there in Jerusalem said, "of a truth this is the Prophet." i.e., they thought that this must be the Messiah and the fulfillment of the prophecy of the beginning of the Messianic age. And they were right. When Christ stood in Jerusalem and offered the living water to anyone who would believe on Him, He was declaring on "the last day" of the feast of Tabernacles that he was fulfilling the prophecy of the tabernacle of David. The efficacy would come when the Holy Spirit is poured out at Pentecost, but Christ standing there offering those living waters fulfilled the prophecy. He was illustrating that Israel should look to Him for their salvation and deliverance. For that feast celebrated His body, the tabernacle of David that brought renewal or restoration, and instituted the start of the Messianic age in the millennial reign of Christ.

Note the correlation of the feast of Tabernacles to Christ coming to Jerusalem and declaring that He is the living water. Clearly, this tabernacle is where those living waters from Jerusalem would be found, and it's no coincidence that God says these things exactly on the eighth day of the feast of Tabernacles. There is a precise timetable in prophecy that has to be followed. And Christ is hereby illustrating that He is the fulfillment of that prophesy of living waters, He was that tabernacles fulfillment, and He was that true Sabbath of rest, wherein the 7th day Sabbath was merely a shadow pointing to Him.
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Colossians 2:16-17~"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
This is how the ceremonial celebrations were merely shadows, a dark "form" of the true, but the reality is found in the body of Christ. The festivals or feasts were teaching instruments until the Christ should come. But now we have the true in His body. And so to claim that this feast isn't fulfilled yet would mean we should return to observing the ceremonial, looking forward to His coming. That would be blatantly unbiblical. We must remember that the feast of Tabernacles was the institution of the ingathering, the culmination of the prophesies of Christ when the holy city would be the center of Christ's Kingdom on earth. It can only point to Christ, the center of the Kingdom and to whom all the nations of the world now come. Zechariah 14:16 talks of the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship the King, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles. We gentiles come to Jerusalem when we come to Christ.

God has always used feasts as figures, and instituted ceremonies to demonstrate Christ. When the nation of Israel journeyed in the wilderness from Egypt, God used the figure of a rock to demonstrate Christ. Israel received water from a Rock that was struck. In this, God was painting a spiritual picture that "metaphorically," Christ was that Rock, and it is He that brings was smitten to bring true waters forth for us (by His stripes we are Healed) that we may be sustained in the wilderness (desolate places).
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1st Corinthians 10:2-5~"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
The scriptures are replete with correlations between historical Israel and its journey in the wilderness to the promised land, and the Church, who is spiritual Israel, and theirs. The Rock from which water came after it was smitten, "signified" Christ. And so all the theologians who are objecting to God speaking spiritually or taking these scriptures metaphorically, as they are written, are not really hearing what they are reading in scripture. For these things are spiritually discerned. Things which are fulfilled in Christ.

So what manner of man will be siting and waiting for that which has already come? What man will be waiting for the fulfillment of that which has already been fulfilled? The Kingdom of God has come (as Jesus told the Priests and Pharisees), and thus Satan has been cast out by the power of God. The Millennial reign of Christ's kingdom has begun, and He has already set the captives free. Those who have been called and chosen of God have been translated from the power of darkness in Satan's domain, into this Kingdom of Christ. It's not done with smoke and mirrors, it's the unadulterated living Word of God.
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Colossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son."
Who then is looking for a coming reign of Christ and a righteous kingdom that has already come? Who is looking for a future King that we'll serve in this kingdom, when Christ has already established His kingdom and the elect already serve in it? Who is looking for a binding of Satan which "had" to be at the cross, or else none of us could have been set free (Matt. 12:28-29) from Satan. The fact is, the captivity of Israel has been delivered, Peace has come, Christ does have a kingdom, Israel is safe from her enemies, God has come down to dwell with men, and they do reign with Christ as kings and Priests unto their God. And if that is true, then Israel is keeping the feast of Tabernacles. The one week in the Covenant, which Daniel 9 said Messiah would confirm, is the New Covenant with Israel.

And the unavoidable fact is, Christ has no more feasts left to fulfill. He fulfilled all the feast days by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. He's not coming back to go to the cross a second time to make sacrifice for Tabernacles, therefore all feasts were fulfilled in His broken body. The historical ceremonies were everlasting laws "looking forward" to the true, which is Christ. So when He came as the antitype, the shadows passed away. He is the true tabernacle that the Olive branch tabernacles that sheltered the Children of Israel prefigured.

Knowing many of these things gives us a better insight into why God uses the phrase "The last day" in scripture only in connection with either the end of the World, or with the feast of Tabernacles (Nehemiah 8:18; John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54, 7:37, 11:24; 12:48). Nowhere else in scripture is that phrase ever used. With each spiritual puzzle piece we get a little better understanding of why God uses the feast of Tabernacles as the "end of year" harvest gathering our labors out of the field, and why Christ said in parables, the harvest "is" the end of the world. We can better understand why the resurrection is "the last day," and why the eighth day of the feast of Tabernacles God called "the last day, the great day of the feast." We can better understand why when Israel was freed from bondage, they had to spend time in the wilderness as strangers in tabernacles, their temporary homes before they could enter into their inheritance. It was a "type" of our walk in the wilderness in tabernacles before we come into our inheritance, and it was to take place one week. The Word of God is like a gigantic Spiritual picture puzzle and when you have it right, every piece fits perfectly. There are no pieces left over, nor are you missing any pieces, nor are there pieces that don't fit or conform to the picture. That's how you know that you have come to truth. When you have harmony and agreement and consistency throughout scripture. On the other hand, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. The Bible is its own interpreter. As Righteous Joseph said, "Do not interpretations belong to God?" indeed they do. Through faith in God's word, comparing scripture with scripture, we can come to receive what God has written and wants us to know. No wresting or twisting scripture is necessary, for the truth is in harmony with the Bible. The New Covenant period is our walk in tabernacles secured by the burnt sacrifice prefigured in Israel's ceremonial laws. It is only by careful study of the scriptures that we will come to the knowledge of these truths.

How about Ezekiel 40-48? literal or spiritual? What sayest thou? What does God's word support?
   
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 06:46:10
Excellent!!
+1

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: dpr on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 12:36:01
As I said before, I don't have time to deal with foolish arguments from the Amill doctrines of men. Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism, which both have varying ludicrous ideas ranging from belief that our Lord's Revelation is already history, to full denial of a literal physical 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and future 1,000 years reign on earth which God's Word declares.

Only the Devil would want us to believe that our Lord Jesus is reigning over all nations and over all the earth right now from His abode in Heaven today. Christian persecution in the Christian west has increased just in my generation, with U.S. congressmen and senators that support Islamic radicalism right here in the U.S., refusing to declare Islamic terror acts on U.S. soil for what they are out of fear to ticking off groups like CAIR that support radical Islamic groups! Many believers are falling away from Christ in the traditional Christian west, and the U.S. just had a President (Obama) that lied to the American people about the Christian history of the United States, saying it has never been a Christian nation, even though in the early history of the White House Sunday Christian Church services were held, with oil paintings of such Church meetings still hang in the White House portico to prove it!!!

BEWARE OF THE BETH-AVENS:
Like Christ's Apostles warned, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing within Christ's Church. It began in Apostle Paul's days, and it has continued still today.

You will know the false churches, the beth-avens (houses of vanity), by what they preach. Is it The Word of God, or is it something else? Like Jesus said, His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD. If it was His servants would fight! (John 18:36). That means He is NOT reigning over this earth yet, not over all nations and peoples like His Word tells us in MANY, MANY, SCRIPTURES.


WHY DO THEY WRONGLY TEACH JESUS NOW REIGNS OVER THE EARTH?:
The false prophets came up with those ideas long ago, and it's reason is simple. Christ's Apostles, especially Paul, made certain spiritual statements about our Lord Jesus establishing His Church after His death and resurrection, and because The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected Jesus, and the western Christian nations sprang up miraculously with the majority in those nations accepting The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the early Church of the 2nd and later centuries begin to think our Lord Jesus and His Apostles meant His reign over the earth was 'then' and 'now'.

They do not just mean over the Church when they say Jesus is now reigning, but they imply with it Christ is reigning over all peoples and over all the earth too, which is a blatant falsehood, and does not align with God's Holy Writ. The promise of Christ's earthly reign is in effect, but the time for it's literal manifestation on earth over ALL nations and peoples is not yet, as God's Word shows. If you don't believe that then you would believe foolishness like Jesus has been and is the head ruler over Communism.

World Socialists have their Christian churches too. That is where you will mostly hear false Socialist propaganda like Jesus is now reigning over the earth (which would include Communist nations). Their program is 'World Socialism'. That is why they want Christ's servants to dump the idea of a future 1,000 year reign by our Lord Jesus after His physical return to this earth. With our Lord Jesus not de facto here on earth reigning, then they can cause you to believe that 'they', men, have been left in charge here, on earth! and that we need to listen to them! What was it our Lord Jesus did on the cross for us involving a literal priesthood that God's people were once required to go through? Jesus tore the veil in the holy place. He now is our ONLY Mediator to The Father in our behalf. Cease ye from men, our Heavenly Father said (Isaiah).

The fake mediators have been around ever since the old pagan mystery schools. They claimed sacred knowledge and required the petitioner to go through made up initiations with words of hidden meanings, and throughout their system the petitioner had to bow and follow the glorious... master. They made themselves into mediators between their gods and their pupils, controlling what knowledge their pupils would be allowed to have and use. Controlling the masses was their main purpose, while they themselves served the devil himself, with the ultimate aim to destroy the souls of men.

That is where the old ideas of 2nd century Amillennialism began which rejected God's Word about a future 1,000 years literal reign on earth by our Lord Jesus at His 2nd coming. The pagan mystery schools were a major system used in old Egypt by the Egyptian priests. The great Library of Alexandria, Egypt contained many works of the ancient pagan arcana, Alexandria having been a major center for pagan beliefs. Their old paganism was not abolished in Alexandria until under the edict of emperor Theodosius in AD 391.

Clement of Alexandria and Origen were Christians of the school at Alexandria, Egypt. They had some ideas from Greek philosophy in their beliefs, since Alexandria had such a strong past with paganism and the doctrines of men preserved from ancient times at the Library of Alexandria. Thus the Alexandrian School has more Gnostic style philosophical and allegorical leanings in their Bible teaching which leaves off much literal interpretation. The newer Bible translations are based on the Alexandrian texts for the New Testament, which are older than the Majority Texts which the KJV New Testament is based on, but not as many.

In contrast was the school at Antioch, where the first Christian Church began, and where the name Christian was first used, and their more literal interpretation of God's Word. These used the Majority Texts for the New Testament, which means just that, they make up the majority of ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, the most copies made and thus show a wider use than the Alexandrian texts. When the Alexandrian and Majority texts are compared, the Alexandrian texts are about 10 pages shorter. So there's some things left out of the Alexandrian texts.

Today, many Bible scholars favor the Alexandrian texts, and Gnosticism is popular again today (Da Vinci Code, etc., Brown's novels). Thus the tenets of Amillennialism from Clement and Origen and the Alexandria School have continued in some churches, especially those churches which like to align with ideals of world socialism. Some of those church socialists are pushing for a one-world government along with world Communism, both cooperating with each other (see Carrol Quigley's 1960's work Tragedy and Hope).

The early 1st century Church fathers, which I have mentioned before in my posts on this thread of how they were Millennialists, believing Rev.20 about Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth as literal, were not associated with the Alexandria School. This is why I said Amillennialism was a 'corruption' of the 2nd century A.D. that came later after the Apostles of Christ.

Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: RB on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:28:10
As I said before, I don't have time to deal with foolish arguments from the Amill doctrines of men.  Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism.
Then sir, why are you here? That's not why you are not answering our post, you are only deceiving your own self and a few others maybe.
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Linked to the Amill position are the doctrines of men called Preterism and Historicism
By that statement, you are showing that you cannot divide properly the eschatologies schools of thoughts, which btw, yours falls into the premillennial camp much more so than I do with of the two you mentioned; and by the fact you did not mention the premillennialist, only proves that I'm correct.
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Historicism
Is indeed a "half-baked Preterist".
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which both have varying ludicrous ideas ranging from belief that our Lord's Revelation is already history
Only Preterism.
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to full denial of a literal physical 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Majority of Preterists but not all.
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future 1,000 years reign on earth which God's Word declares
Yes only the deluded Premillennialist, partial (like you) or full, which is the majority of them.
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Only the Devil would want us to believe that our Lord Jesus is reigning over all nations and over all the earth right now from His abode in Heaven today.
See, you do not fully understand. Jesus is reigning over the house of Jacob, or the elect, both Jews and Gentiles. God has NOT made all his enemies his footstool as of yet!
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1st Corinthians 15:20-28~But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Questions: When will the kingdom be delivered up to God? At the resurrection of the righteous, the last day.  Question: When will death itself be destroyed? At the resurrection of the righteous at the last trump and last day! Question: Was Jesus reigning according to Paul's teaching at the time of his writing to the church at Corinth?
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Christian persecution in the Christian west has increased just in my generation, with U.S. congressmen and senators that support Islamic radicalism right here in the U.S., refusing to declare Islamic terror acts on U.S. soil for what they are out of fear to ticking off groups like CAIR that support radical Islamic groups! Many believers are falling away from Christ in the traditional Christian west, and the U.S. just had a President (Obama) that lied to the American people about the Christian history of the United States, saying it has never been a Christian nation, even though in the early history of the White House Sunday Christian Church services were held, with oil paintings of such Church meetings still hang in the White House portico to prove it!!!
These are enemies that shall be destroyed in the lake of fire which IS the second death when DEATH and HELL are cast into the lake of fire to forever perish. You are terribly confused, and if you think you are not, then give scriptures and prove it ~which you gave none in your post above.
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You will know the false churches, the beth-avens (houses of vanity), by what they preach. Is it The Word of God, or is it something else? Like Jesus said, His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD. If it was His servants would fight! (John 18:36).
Again sir, you are confused. We know perfectly that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, for this world shall melt with fervent heat and shall be burned up and all the works therein shall be dissolved. The rest of your post is copied and pasted (which I have no problem with if it contains strong arguments from the scriptures) and proves not one one thing. Sir, what others believe after the apostles and down to us is really NOT the test of truth~the word of God alone is the sole basis from which a believer in Jesus Christ should learn what is truth and what is not the truth. 
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:47:32
dpr, I'm not going to throw shade on you or slander you because you believe in the Pre-mill position. I have not done that nor will I, like you are doing by implying all that you are implying in your first post today in this thread.

I believe you are my sincere brother in Christ. And because you are my brother I will go over scripture point by point with you for the sake of the Brethren who read these/our posts..


You & I both know that the Amill & the Pre-mill positions have been with the Church since the beginning. Way back then Amill was not considered by anyone a heresy nor ever has. It is why it has been the position of the Eastern church for about 2000 years. Like we said before it is original position of the Reformation. Even the Romanist get this one right. 

Justin Martyr who thought similar to you considered those who held the Amill position as pious brothers in the faith.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Dialogue_with_Trypho#Chapter_80

"And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you, sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?"

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Dialogue_with_Trypho#Chapter_80


If Justin Martyr believed those who held to the Amill position way back then were "true Christians", why do you feel compelled to slander your brother when he would not?
Title: Re: Heavenly Temple
Post by: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 22, 2017 - 14:53:21
the word of God alone is the sole basis from which a believer in Jesus Christ should learn what is truth and what is not the truth.

Amen.