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Offline versavia

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Heavenly Temple
« on: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 08:45:24 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

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Heavenly Temple
« on: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 08:45:24 »

Offline Amo

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 09:57:04 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The temple in heaven is the real temple, made without hands. The earthly temples were made after its pattern as types of the same. The gospel was preached through the types and symbols of the earthly temples and sacrificial system, until Christ Himself came in the flesh to establish that which they prophesied. That which they prophesied is not yet complete, but Christ has come as the predicted sacrifice, and as such is now the High Priest of the temple in heaven. The temple in heaven and the tempe on earth which is Christ's church, are connected through His continuous intercession for humanity in and through the church. Another literal temple on earth would be an affront to God, an attempt to stand between God and His people, and a throwback to a time of types and symbols only meant to exist until the real was established.

Nothing here can replace or improve in any way shape or form, that which God has established through Jesus Christ and His body, the church. Though many have tried and continue to try to break this connection directly to heaven through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, it cannot be done. All who so choose have direct access to the throne of God in heaven through Jesus Christ His Son and our Redeemer. Thus many a false, even "Christian" systems of worship and practice have been set up by the enemy of all souls to impede or cut off this connection to the heavenly temple and High Priest of the same. Only through deception, and the individuals acceptance of the same, can this be accomplished. No one can separate us from God through Christ, save ourselves in accepting and putting into practice the lies of the evil one. Such would be the only purpose of building another literal temple on earth.
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 09:59:48 by Amo »

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 09:57:04 »

notreligus

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #2 on: Sat Dec 03, 2016 - 10:58:54 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 03:16:49 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #3 on: Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 03:16:49 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

notreligus

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 12:03:36 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.   

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #4 on: Wed Dec 07, 2016 - 12:03:36 »



Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #5 on: Thu Dec 08, 2016 - 02:28:34 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

I would agree with you. I recently read a teaching on the third temple from Ezekiel. Would you say that prophecy is about the spiritual temple rather than a literal one?
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.

That sounds more plausible than a literal temple being built to fulfill prophecy, as if God would allow the sacrifice of animals again… that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Offline Glorious

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #6 on: Thu Dec 08, 2016 - 05:00:55 »
notreligus wrote:
Quote
The priesthood changed with Christ now as our one Great High Priest.   According to the Book of Hebrews His blood was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies.   Christ now reigns over a spiritual kingdom from Heaven.

There will be no need for a temple in the New Jerusalem because Christ will be there with His people for eternity. 

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Exactly!

Both the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb constitute the Son of God in Heaven.  He will be (and is)Temple forever and ever.

Again, notreligus wrote:
Quote
I believe that the whole of our new residence of the New Earth will be the temple.   The Lamb will illuminate this temple with His presence.

He is part of the Temple and He will illuminate the new earth with the light of His glory.

The Lamb in Heaven personifies the combo of all offices executed by Jesus on earth and in the world as follows:
  • the physical man Jesus who came to the earth over 2,000 years ago

  • the Christ (the Anointed One who came to the earth over 2,000 years ago)

  • the Lord Jesus Christ (the Minister of eternal life)

  • the Lord (the Minister of everlasting life by the new covenant

  • the Lord God  (the High Priest in Heaven)

Offline GodsVoice

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 12, 2016 - 14:32:12 »
The heavenly temple can be thought of as the MIND of MAN or the MIND OF GOD, or CREATED MAN made in the IMAGE OF GOD.  GOD and MAN are ONE.

Offline Amo

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jan 01, 2017 - 08:42:31 »
The heavenly temple can be thought of as the MIND of MAN or the MIND OF GOD, or CREATED MAN made in the IMAGE OF GOD.  GOD and MAN are ONE.

There is a real temple in heaven, where our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ intercedes continually for humanity. Its size, magnitude, and scope are beyond our present comprehension. Several of the prophets have mentioned it and described as best as possible what they have seen of it.

God became a man in Christ Jesus for the salvation of fallen humanity. Man is certainly not, never has been, and never will be God save in Christ Jesus alone. Being made in the image of God, or being brought back to that image through salvation in Christ, is being made one with God according to His original purpose and intent for humanity. Christ became fully man, and is the only being that is fully God and fully man.

Atonement, At-one-ment with God is about our salvation through Christ becoming a man, not man becoming God. This was the desire of the evil one which debased humanity unto the need of salvation in the first place. Christ came to undo this by exemplifying the proper relation of humanity to God. Not to make humanity God.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Offline DaveRC

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 22:40:33 »
The Most Holy Place represents a type or shadow whatever one labels it of heaven itself.

Please note, no one could enter this "temple" until the wrath of Christ was spent on the Old Covenant age. Revelation 15:8

Also please note the heavenly congregation are singing the "Song of Moses". Revelation 15:3

The Song of Moses is loaded with prophecies concerning the final days of the Old Covenant age but I'll refer you to three big ones - Deuteronomy 32:29,35-36,43.

Compare Deuteronomy 32:35-36 with Daniel 12:2,6-7.

The way into the Most Holy Place was not open until the consummation of the  Old Covenant age and ALL of its prophecies including the Song of Moses prophecies are fulfilled. Hebrews 9:8 + Revelation 15:3,8 + Deuteronomy 32:29,35-36,43 + Daniel 12:2,6-7 + Matthew 5:17-18 + Hebrews 8:13.

Edit: We can also throw in Matthew 23:29-36 & Luke 11:47-51.

See how it all corroborates?

Under the Law,  Israel was never forgiven while the High Priest still stood inside the Most Holy Place but was required to come back out alive
to declare Israel forgiven or judged. Hebrews 9:28.

The second coming of Christ represents the fulfilment of this Day of Atonement High Priest typology. 

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 23:02:06 by DaveRC »

Offline DaveRC

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 23:15:26 »
Furthermore,  this Resurrection spoken of in Daniel 12:2,6-7 is the very hopes of Israel - Acts 23:6; 24:14-15, 21;  and 26:6-8.

The Dispensationalists and Premillennialists have it wrong.


Edit: There is no two plan deal.  Just that New Covenant Israel encompasses a larger demographic - Galatians 6:15-16.

The Resurrection is the very hopes of Israel promised to the fathers.  That to reraise the dividing wall between physical Israel and spiritual Israel Christ tore down is a grave doctrinal error.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 02, 2017 - 23:30:28 by DaveRC »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #11 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 23:15:38 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

For the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20, there will be a physical temple standing on earth in Jerusalem, built by our Lord Jesus. After the 1,000 years, there will be no more physical temple like Revelation 21 says.

Brethren need to be careful about believing men's traditions about this matter because many no longer do their homework in the OT prophets. Hear me out on this and you might learn something:

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV


That's about our Lord Jesus The Christ. When He returns, He will build the final temple in Jerusalem, on earth. That is the temple which Ezekiel prophesied of in Ezekiel 40 through 47.

Old Testament Scripture like Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24 point to cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 70 weeks prophecy, and after the 2300 days. That is what that Zechariah 6 Scripture is about when Jesus returns, for He is THE BRANCH. That especially points to Him and no other as Zech.6:13 reveals it involves being a king upon a throne while also being a priest (see Psalms 110 if one doubts that). That office is reserved for Jesus Christ only and none other.

Ezek 40:2
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
KJV


Beginning in Ezekiel 40, which is immediately after the Ezek.39 chapter about the destruction of the Gog-Magog armies for the end of this present world, Ezekiel by vision from The LORD is taken to... "the land of Israel", "upon a very high mountain", overlooking "the frame of a city on the south." That was not... a picture of Heaven, it was a view upon the earth, a city where the following events are to take place.

Ezek 41:1-4
41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

2 And the breadth of the door was ten cubits; and the sides of the door were five cubits on the one side, and five cubits on the other side: and he measured the length thereof, forty cubits: and the breadth, twenty cubits.

3 Then went he inward, and measured the post of the door, two cubits; and the door, six cubits; and the breadth of the door, seven cubits.

4 So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
KJV


The Father's House is named simply a House and also temple in those Ezekiel chapters of Ezek.40 forward. It is shown to Ezekiel with precise dimensions of its structure, and also something else emitting from it.


Ezek 47:1-3
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
KJV


Waters issued out of the "house" from the right side of the "house". These waters flowed eastward, even to the outer eastward gate. Ezekiel was taken out a thousand cubits by the angel and the waters were up to his ankles. In continuing Scripture Ezekiel was then taken out another thousand cubits and the waters were up to his waste. He was then taken further out and the waters were moving so strong the River could not be passed over.

This River, is God's River of the Waters of Life. It is something REAL, and it is going to manifest back on earth in that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign on earth. Look in Genesis 2 and you will discover this River once existed upon the earth with God's Garden of Eden.



Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV


That Ezek.47:10 gives us the exact location of that future River which Ezekiel was given to see by vision on earth. En-gedi and En-eglaim are locations in the middle east holy lands where God established the twelve tribes of Israel after Joshua's day.

Continuing in Ezekiel 47 about that River reveals the many trees on either side of the River, bearing its fruits that have the leaves as medicine for the nations, which is a direct reference to the Tree of Life at the end Revelation.

Thus the Ezekiel 40 to 48 Chapters go hand-in-hand with the Revelation 20 to 22 Chapters. Revelation does not specifically tell us where all those events will take place. But Ezekiel does, and should have been read and studied first before getting to Revelation so we'd know these things.

In the new heavens and a new earth, like Revelation 21 says, there will be no more temple, as our Heavenly Father and His Son will be the temple. This is why Apostle Paul taught us about the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, with the prophets and Apostles as the foundation and our Lord Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone. Those in Christ also are represented as stones fittingly framed in that spiritual temple by The Lord.

But for the future 1,000 years by Christ and His elect on earth beginning on the last day of this present world, there will... be a temple built in Jerusalem again, by our Lord Jesus Himself (Zech.6, "THE BRANCH"). He will reign on His father David's throne as promised Him in both OT and NT Scripture. And David's throne was, and has always been, an EARTHLY throne. Right now, our Lord Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that is when Jesus will sit upon the throne of His glory per Matthew 25, which is His father David's throne.

This is why we today have been warned by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles about the coming Antichrist for the end of this world sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem for the end, and to be careful not to bow in worship to that false pseudo-Christ (2 Thess.2:4). Daniel 11 reveals the unbelieving Jews will build another temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's 2nd coming, and those Jews will re-institute the old covenant sacrificial worship, for they still reject The New Covenant Christ Jesus and His saving sacrifice on the cross. That temple they build in our times will be destroyed by Christ when He returns. Daniel 11 and Revelation 11:1-2 & 8 especially are pointers to the orthodox Jew's planned temple for the tribulation time.

notreligus

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #12 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 19:38:56 »
What is the reason of the heavenly Temple?
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.

For the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20, there will be a physical temple standing on earth in Jerusalem, built by our Lord Jesus. After the 1,000 years, there will be no more physical temple like Revelation 21 says.

Brethren need to be careful about believing men's traditions about this matter because many no longer do their homework in the OT prophets. Hear me out on this and you might learn something:

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV


That's about our Lord Jesus The Christ. When He returns, He will build the final temple in Jerusalem, on earth. That is the temple which Ezekiel prophesied of in Ezekiel 40 through 47.

Old Testament Scripture like Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24 point to cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 70 weeks prophecy, and after the 2300 days. That is what that Zechariah 6 Scripture is about when Jesus returns, for He is THE BRANCH. That especially points to Him and no other as Zech.6:13 reveals it involves being a king upon a throne while also being a priest (see Psalms 110 if one doubts that). That office is reserved for Jesus Christ only and none other.

Ezek 40:2
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
KJV


Beginning in Ezekiel 40, which is immediately after the Ezek.39 chapter about the destruction of the Gog-Magog armies for the end of this present world, Ezekiel by vision from The LORD is taken to... "the land of Israel", "upon a very high mountain", overlooking "the frame of a city on the south." That was not... a picture of Heaven, it was a view upon the earth, a city where the following events are to take place.

Ezek 41:1-4
41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

2 And the breadth of the door was ten cubits; and the sides of the door were five cubits on the one side, and five cubits on the other side: and he measured the length thereof, forty cubits: and the breadth, twenty cubits.

3 Then went he inward, and measured the post of the door, two cubits; and the door, six cubits; and the breadth of the door, seven cubits.

4 So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
KJV


The Father's House is named simply a House and also temple in those Ezekiel chapters of Ezek.40 forward. It is shown to Ezekiel with precise dimensions of its structure, and also something else emitting from it.


Ezek 47:1-3
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
KJV


Waters issued out of the "house" from the right side of the "house". These waters flowed eastward, even to the outer eastward gate. Ezekiel was taken out a thousand cubits by the angel and the waters were up to his ankles. In continuing Scripture Ezekiel was then taken out another thousand cubits and the waters were up to his waste. He was then taken further out and the waters were moving so strong the River could not be passed over.

This River, is God's River of the Waters of Life. It is something REAL, and it is going to manifest back on earth in that future time of Christ's 1,000 years reign on earth. Look in Genesis 2 and you will discover this River once existed upon the earth with God's Garden of Eden.



Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV


That Ezek.47:10 gives us the exact location of that future River which Ezekiel was given to see by vision on earth. En-gedi and En-eglaim are locations in the middle east holy lands where God established the twelve tribes of Israel after Joshua's day.

Continuing in Ezekiel 47 about that River reveals the many trees on either side of the River, bearing its fruits that have the leaves as medicine for the nations, which is a direct reference to the Tree of Life at the end Revelation.

Thus the Ezekiel 40 to 48 Chapters go hand-in-hand with the Revelation 20 to 22 Chapters. Revelation does not specifically tell us where all those events will take place. But Ezekiel does, and should have been read and studied first before getting to Revelation so we'd know these things.

In the new heavens and a new earth, like Revelation 21 says, there will be no more temple, as our Heavenly Father and His Son will be the temple. This is why Apostle Paul taught us about the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, with the prophets and Apostles as the foundation and our Lord Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone. Those in Christ also are represented as stones fittingly framed in that spiritual temple by The Lord.

But for the future 1,000 years by Christ and His elect on earth beginning on the last day of this present world, there will... be a temple built in Jerusalem again, by our Lord Jesus Himself (Zech.6, "THE BRANCH"). He will reign on His father David's throne as promised Him in both OT and NT Scripture. And David's throne was, and has always been, an EARTHLY throne. Right now, our Lord Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, that is when Jesus will sit upon the throne of His glory per Matthew 25, which is His father David's throne.

This is why we today have been warned by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles about the coming Antichrist for the end of this world sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem for the end, and to be careful not to bow in worship to that false pseudo-Christ (2 Thess.2:4). Daniel 11 reveals the unbelieving Jews will build another temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's 2nd coming, and those Jews will re-institute the old covenant sacrificial worship, for they still reject The New Covenant Christ Jesus and His saving sacrifice on the cross. That temple they build in our times will be destroyed by Christ when He returns. Daniel 11 and Revelation 11:1-2 & 8 especially are pointers to the orthodox Jew's planned temple for the tribulation time.

I would ask you to consider that you also need to do some homework and recognize that the great majority of OT prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.

The Christ's kingdom on the New Earth is the consummation.   

I have posted in this forum the many versions of the millennial kingdom that men's traditions - just like those you say should be avoided - have predicted about the millennial kingdom.   Rabbis have made various predictions about the millennial kingdom in the oral law.   I can post those again with references.  Christians can't agree on who is on the Earth during the millennium and what their roles will be.  Do you believe the Mid-Acts, or Full Dispensational view that the Gentiles will not be on the Earth?   It would seem so since you have mentioned only Jews.   Do you really believe that God is going to put the Gentiles on hold for 1,000 years to deal exclusively with Israel?   Mid-Acts folk believe that.   I used to be one of them and then I realized that this is contrary to what Christ accomplished on the cross.   If I were to keep promoting a dual covenant and a dual gospel I would be an enemy of the Gospel of Christ.   

A remnant of Jews believed and became part of the one new man in Christ, the Church.  They needed reconciliation just as all of mankind needed reconciliation.  God has not stopped dealing with the Jews.  They are now jealous of the Gentiles, just as Paul predicted.   We are under a New Covenant, one that does not separate the people of God by ethnicity.   God's new program is not a racist program.   Jews must come to Christ and put their faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.   Men like John Hagee are false teachers of a dual-gospel program. 

Do you believe that God is going to deal with the Jews exclusively for 1,000 years and then turn the Devil loose to try to take as many converts away from Christ as possible?   Are the Jews doomed to having God's full wrath unleashed against them during the Great Tribulation and then God is going to make it possible for more Jews to have His wrath unleashed on them?  You do know how terrible it was for the Jews (and some Christians) when the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem, don't you?   Well over a million Jews died.   You should know that even after that the Jews kept looking for a political messiah and the one they followed, Simon bar Kokhba, about 60 years later in the Second Jewish Revolt and that brought death to somewhere between 500,000 to 750,000 more Jews.

Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Gal 3:25  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26  for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 00:49:08 »

I would ask you to consider that you also need to do some homework and recognize that the great majority of OT prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.

I considered that long, long ago when I used to listen to the traditions of men instead of heeding God's Word as written with His help.

There is prophecy even in the Book of Genesis specifically for the last days before Christ's 2nd coming. It's Genesis 49 where Jacob told his twelve sons to gather around and he would tell them what would befall them in the last days.

So statements like the majority of the Old Testament Books are old history reveals someone who really isn't studied. It's really a cop out showing laziness in The Word, and it's also how so many of men's traditions get started.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #14 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 02:44:07 »
One thing we should also remember when we study the Old Testament is to study it in the light of Christ.

A very good example is Malachi 4"
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}

We can easily identify the Sun of righteousnes as Christ especially when we understand Sun signifies light.

Take verse 5. Without the light of Christ reflecting on the Old Testament we might assume a literal understanding & think Elijah the prophet was literally coming skewing our understanding.
But Jesus told us in Matthew 11 Elijah was John;
" 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus we have Christ showing us Elijah the prophet in verse 5 was a type & not literal, thus signified.  Just like "Sun of righteousness" in verse 2 is signified.

Peter told about the testimony of the prophets in his first epistle;
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Even Revelation is signified as explained in the first verse;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So one has to be cautious because if one literalizes that which is signified that can easily lead to error.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 02:56:17 by TonkaTim »

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #15 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 05:20:26 »
And why a Temple is not in the New Jerusalem.
That's like saying when you are looking into a large body of water and see millions of tadpoles and say where are the frogs? Well you are looking at them if you understand what tadpoles are. The New Jerusalem is the temple/tabernacle of God. In OT, Jerusalem was where God was known to dwell in the Temple built by Solomon that was in Jerusalem a type of the New Jerusalem which are God elect out of every nation under heaven. Consider:
Quote
Hebrews 9:1-11~"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Again:
Quote
Acts 7:46-49~"Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
We KNOW where that place of rest is for our God. It is the NEW JERUSALEM not made with hands but by the life, death and resurrection of the Son of the Living God, designed and planned by the will and purpose of Almighty God according to the riches of his grace secured by two immutable things...God's promises of GRACE AND HIS OATH! This New Jerusalem is being built NOW and may very well be almost completed. Consider:
Quote
1st Corinthians 3:16,17~"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Again:
Quote
Ephesians 2:19-22~"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
Again:
Quote
1st Peter 2:4-8~"To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
I'll stop for now, but so much could be given to prove that the New Jerusalem are the elect of God out of every nation under heaven from Abel unto the very last soul born of God, even though grace and mercy were freely given to them before the foundation of the world, but the HOLY TEMPLE MUST BE BUILT for God's eternal resting place. Anyone who teaches that an earthly temple is yet to be built in that God forsaken land over in the middle east are terribly deceived just as Peter said in the scriptures that we quoted.
Quote
"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
In closing:
Quote
Revelation 21:2,3~"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers? 
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 04:23:59 by RB »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #16 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 08:17:55 »
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #17 on: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 10:28:36 »
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

They've been doing that for much longer than twenty years.    And the Mormons have offered Israel millions of dollars to help.   I was hard-line Dispensational and I've heard these same arguments for many more years than twenty.   

God's prophets said that the Messiah would come.   The Jews did not believe He was the Messiah.   Again, read John Chapter Five starting at about verse 44 or 45.   Jesus came to the Jews and they crucified Him because He was not the political Messiah they wanted.  The Jews were and remain a people who demand the sign that they want.   Read some of the apocryphal writings from the Pseudopigrapha and you find writings that Jews believed more than what Moses and the prophets had written.   The apocryphal writings pointed to a political Messiah.   The Jews followed a political Messiah about sixty years after Christ's ascension.    Paul said that the promises made to and through Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.   The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ, not the Jews.  To agree with your beliefs we all have to stop seeing Jesus for who He is and we have to believe in the false Jesus that is claimed when it is said that God has two concurrent and separate plans for Israel and Gentiles.    The separation of Israel as a separate group of believers from the rest of mankind is not according to what Paul taught and it goes against the fact that all of mankind must be reconciled to God and there is only one way that that can happen, and that is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.   

A messianic man admitted on this forum one time, for everyone to see and read, that Israel will have a higher position than Gentiles in the kingdom.   That comes by the false belief called covenantal nomism which is the belief that they are going to be saved by being the covenant people.   Paul said that the offspring promised to Abraham is ultimately Jesus Christ.    When we put our faith in Him we become joint heirs with Him.    Moses and an obsolete covenant cannot change that.    Read the Book of Hebrews.    So much of what Messianics and Dispensationals claim is going to happen in the future is already taking place as Christ reigns on the throne from Heaven right now.   Without His righteousness no human being, Jew or Gentile, will escape eternal separation from God.    That may not be dispensational, but that is the truth! 
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 11:02:05 by notreligus »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #18 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 03:47:39 »
That is such a misguided statement

I think you're above statement was a bit rude to Brother Red because Red holds to the ancient & dominate eschatological understanding believed from the ancient Church even to the Protestant Reformers. Historically it is a very orthodox understanding & is still believed by the majority of Christians in the world today as in the ancient past. It is the Amill understanding.


The current problem with the Amill understanding in the modern west is, it is not exciting. It doesn't get folks all worked up.
Because it is not exciting it is not a money maker or an ear tickler, or a crowd pleaser.
Amill simplified - Satan is bound at the Cross, preventing him from deceiving the nations, evidenced by the fact the Gospel is preached to the entire world. Jesus returns: the righteous go with Him to eternal life in the New Heavens & New Earth while the wicked go to eternal damnation. The end.


No exciting & highly profitable books, videos, sermons, movies, etc based on wild speculations out of that ancient doctrine. No interrupted timelines, no dual covenant theologies, no race verse grace debates, etc.

It starts with the Biblical premise that the greatest event in all of humanity, creation, the universe, in eternity past to eternity future is the event at the Cross of Christ. That all salvation hinges on this profound immense revelation & act of God.

That Jesus meant what he said:
"I,.., will draw all men unto me"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"

That when he said;
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.:"
He meant it.
Not, "I have a few exceptions because the cross was insufficient for some"


That the binding of Satan is explained by Jesus when he teaches about the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12, Mark 3, & Luke 11.

That He declared it so in John 12 after the Voice spoke from Heaven & Jesus said "now shall the prince of this world be cast out" Then reconfirms it in John 14 when He says " the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" showing Satan is bound unable to deceive the nations because of Jesus' most loving act on the Cross.

Thus Jesus illustrates the binding of Satan in all four Gospels.

Thus it is not 'misguided' it has been taught & believed in Christianity from the beginning.


One of the whys I made this post yesterday;
One thing we should also remember when we study the Old Testament is to study it in the light of Christ.

A very good example is Malachi 4"
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}

We can easily identify the Sun of righteousnes as Christ especially when we understand Sun signifies light.

Take verse 5. Without the light of Christ reflecting on the Old Testament we might assume a literal understanding & think Elijah the prophet was literally coming skewing our understanding.
But Jesus told us in Matthew 11 Elijah was John;
" 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus we have Christ showing us Elijah the prophet in verse 5 was a type & not literal, thus signified.  Just like "Sun of righteousness" in verse 2 is signified.

Peter told about the testimony of the prophets in his first epistle;
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Even Revelation is signified as explained in the first verse;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So one has to be cautious because if one literalizes that which is signified that can easily lead to error.

Hoping folks would seriously consider what is truly literal & what is truly signified by looking at all scripture through the light of Christ. Thus illuminating the shadows of types that were shown pointing to Christ. Now that Christ is come & we have the Gospels & Epistles we should be able to understand those old shadows of types far more clearly by standing firmly in the light of Christ as revealed to us in the Word of God contained in the New Testament. As it has been said so many times, "the old testament is the new testament concealed & the new testament is the old testament revealed".

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #19 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 05:36:54 »
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev4MilZGesU
And Oliver B. Greene
Quote
http://www.thegospelhour.org/
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes on the scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed. You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially since you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.

Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel who used the phrase.  John never used either phrases that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believers to let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTER the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
Quote
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
Quote
man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 09:04:28 by RB »

Online 4WD

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #20 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 06:50:58 »
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

It really doesn't matter what the Jews in Jerusalem might build.  That has nothing to do with the end time of Judeo-Christian eschatology.

Online 4WD

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #21 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 06:55:17 »
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
Quote
http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Dr-Harold-Sightler-Tabernacle-Baptist-Church-Greenville-SC.
And Oliver B. Greene
Quote
http://www.thegospelhour.org/
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed. You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially think you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.

Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin is doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel use of the phrase.  John never used either phrase that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believersto let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTERWARD the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
Quote
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
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man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later


Excellent !  Keep it up, RB.

Offline RB

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #22 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 09:56:28 »
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2nd Thessalonians 2~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
dpr~it is clear that what follows in 2nd Thess. 2 must occur before Jesus returns for us. This is undisputable, and cannot be gainsay, without a wicked attempt to go against Paul's teaching to the first-century church.
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Let no man deceive you by any means
There are sundry and divers means used by the man of sin to deceive believers, and we must guard ourselves from those many means, by trying all spirits by the scriptures.
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for that day shall not come
What day? The day of Christ, which is according to Paul when Christ comes again to gather to together the church. So, without controversy, the second coming of Jesus will NOT COME until a prophesied event shall take place FIRST. So far, there can be NO disagreement, UNLESS one wants to question Paul's understanding, which it would not be wise to do so, now would it?
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except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
This is one and the same event~much like the second coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection are one and the same event. The great falling aways is the results of the man of sin ruling in the temple of God standing where he ought not to standing, which is an abomination in God's sight which he WILL make desolate in his day! So, just before the coming of Jesus Christ there will be a falling away from the faith, in so much as that if God does not shortened the last days, no flesh would be saved, that is in a practical sense of having true love for God; true knowledge of the truths of God, even though multitudes will say that Jesus is the Christ, yet it is another Jesus, another spirit, following another gospel.
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that man of sin be revealed
Who is this man of sin? Very simple~listen carefully....MAN of sin...man OF SIN! The man of sin is a man who lives under the power of SIN. This man will stand in the temple of God (or the professing worship places/buildings) professing that HE IS GOD~and this is done when one sets aside God's truth for their OWN doctrines and commandments. Much like the Pharisees did in Jesus day ONLY on a smaller scale than the man of sin will do in the last days of this world, just before Jesus' coming again.

Man of sin is a collective noun meaning ALL MEN who are living under the power of sin, regardless if they consider they do so or not. We used collective nouns when speaking of a group people who are known for doing the same vocation. Man of war is not one person, but all who go to war.  Man of God is used to includes ALL MEN who speak for God and that defends his cause. But a stronger prood is right here in the context under consideration~consider verses 11,12:
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And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them  that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Could it be any plainer? No, it cannot be.
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For the mystery of iniquity doth already work
Paul is saying the exact same thing that John said in 1st John 2:18. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the fall, only it will increase the greatest at the time when Jesus shall return again, so much so, that NO FLESH would be saved if the Lord had not shortened those days. The salvation in that scripture from Matthew 24:24, is not speaking of our physical flesh~but of our hearts toward the things of God based on his word NOT what we think his word should say and teach! So much more could be said on this point, but I have made my point clearly~so I must stop and move on.




« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 10:02:07 by RB »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #23 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:01:21 »
There is NO OTHER temple to ever be built other than the one the apostles preach and taught about. Why should we not listen TO THEM as they explain TO US their own OT scriptures? Why listen to C.I. Scofield and his blinded followers?

That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).

They've been doing that for much longer than twenty years.    And the Mormons have offered Israel millions of dollars to help.   I was hard-line Dispensational and I've heard these same arguments for many more years than twenty.   

God's prophets said that the Messiah would come.   The Jews did not believe He was the Messiah.   Again, read John Chapter Five starting at about verse 44 or 45.   Jesus came to the Jews and they crucified Him because He was not the political Messiah they wanted.  The Jews were and remain a people who demand the sign that they want.   Read some of the apocryphal writings from the Pseudopigrapha and you find writings that Jews believed more than what Moses and the prophets had written.   The apocryphal writings pointed to a political Messiah.   The Jews followed a political Messiah about sixty years after Christ's ascension.    Paul said that the promises made to and through Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.   The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ, not the Jews.  To agree with your beliefs we all have to stop seeing Jesus for who He is and we have to believe in the false Jesus that is claimed when it is said that God has two concurrent and separate plans for Israel and Gentiles.    The separation of Israel as a separate group of believers from the rest of mankind is not according to what Paul taught and it goes against the fact that all of mankind must be reconciled to God and there is only one way that that can happen, and that is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.   

A messianic man admitted on this forum one time, for everyone to see and read, that Israel will have a higher position than Gentiles in the kingdom.   That comes by the false belief called covenantal nomism which is the belief that they are going to be saved by being the covenant people.   Paul said that the offspring promised to Abraham is ultimately Jesus Christ.    When we put our faith in Him we become joint heirs with Him.    Moses and an obsolete covenant cannot change that.    Read the Book of Hebrews.    So much of what Messianics and Dispensationals claim is going to happen in the future is already taking place as Christ reigns on the throne from Heaven right now.   Without His righteousness no human being, Jew or Gentile, will escape eternal separation from God.    That may not be dispensational, but that is the truth!

Lot of that is simply irrelevant to Bible prophecy as written in The Word of God, and is instead more of a political meandering than anything else. And I don't believe in Dispensationalism, so you can't try to use that as a political flag with me. Nor do I believe in a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Preterists and Historicists here simply have yet to realize there are folks that actually read and study their Bible for theirselves, and do not heed all these doctrines of men you've espoused.

Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.

 

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #24 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:09:01 »
That is such a misguided statement

I think you're above statement was a bit rude to Brother Red because Red holds to the ancient & dominate eschatological understanding believed from the ancient Church even to the Protestant Reformers. Historically it is a very orthodox understanding & is still believed by the majority of Christians in the world today as in the ancient past. It is the Amill understanding.


Regardless of what you think, one who does not know today what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem plan to do with building another temple, which has been their aim ever since the U.N. vote in 1948 to establish Israel as a nation again, disregarding it either means ignorance of the prophecies for the end in God's Word, or it means direct denial of them.

Like I told notreligious, I'm not a Pre-tribber, nor a Dispensationalist, so Preterists and Historicists can't use those things as trying to put them in my mouth. You folks need to actually listen to what I'm saying, and not just assume I'm saying something else I didn't.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #25 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:23:44 »
Regardless of what you think, one who does not know today what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem plan to do with building another temple, which has been their aim ever since the U.N. vote in 1948 to establish Israel as a nation again, disregarding it either means ignorance of the prophecies for the end in God's Word, or it means direct denial of them.

Like I told notreligious, I'm not a Pre-tribber, nor a Dispensationalist, so Preterists and Historicists can't use those things as trying to put them in my mouth. You folks need to actually listen to what I'm saying, and not just assume I'm saying something else I didn't.

I do listen. I actually sent RB a pm letting him know you are not a full dispensationalist. But you do sound like a partial-dispensationalist because you are looking for a fulfillment of an earthy kingdom involving racial Israel.

You said;
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..

Why I asked you to consider Christ's testimony on who He would draw unto himself.

That is one of the core tenets of dispensationalist, dividing the body of Christ with a dual covenant race & grace theology. One of the reasons I said what I did above.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #26 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:30:39 »

The current problem with the Amill understanding in the modern west is, it is not exciting. It doesn't get folks all worked up.
Because it is not exciting it is not a money maker or an ear tickler, or a crowd pleaser.
Amill simplified - Satan is bound at the Cross, preventing him from deceiving the nations, evidenced by the fact the Gospel is preached to the entire world. Jesus returns: the righteous go with Him to eternal life in the New Heavens & New Earth while the wicked go to eternal damnation. The end.

I don't do seminary categorizations like Amill, Premill, etc., either. That's a waste of time, because like I said before, doing that tries to put a whole set of men's doctrines into someone's mouth which they may not even believe in. If you guys went to seminary, you really need to get back to the basic simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.

The fact that I do believe in a literal return of our Lord Jesus sometime in the future when He will gather His Church, after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24 but immediately before the Millennium of Rev.20, it doesn't matter to me that means Premill. The early 1st century Church fathers were Premill, so I've got good company, but do I make that a whole stance? No, of course not.

As for thinking that Satan is now bound, that is misunderstood per the Book of John. Jesus said in John 14 Satan ("prince") is coming, and Rev.12:7 forward shows Satan will be cast out of the Heavenly down to this earth in the last days, with his angels. So that is actually what the "cast out" idea is about, not some tradition of men that thinks Satan was bound when our Lord Jesus died on the cross.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV


That doesn't really sound like Satan is bound from this world now does it? Jesus said that after He said John 12:31. Right now Satan is in his abode in the Heavenly, and he is free to work evil upon this earth still, which can easily still be seen very much today once one takes their blinders off. Jesus showed us Satan is coming, which is what Rev.12:7 forward shows us, even that Satan's 'place' in Heaven is no more found at that point. When that future casting out happens, that is what will cause the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned us about. That is how it is that at Christ's 2nd coming Satan is then... bound... in chains and thrown into his pit prison for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ Jesus and His elect.

In Rev.3:9, our Lord Jesus showed us those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing in worship at the feet of Christ's elect. That has NEVER happened yet to this day. That event is set for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect. So thinking that future 1,000 years is already past, or that we are already in it today, is a ludicrous thought when I look at Scripture and compare. Nowhere does such an idea even originate in God's Word.




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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #27 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:52:54 »
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #28 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 12:56:28 »
That is such a misguided statement, especially in light of the fact that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials for about two decades now to build another temple. Also, as per Bible prophecy by God's prophets and Christ and His Apostles for the end, there will be another temple built for the coming Antichrist to sit in like Apostle Paul said, and like Jesus showed for the end (2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8).
Greetings dpr, I would have said the same many years ago to someone else, and may have, I cannot remember. I started out in the early seventies believing the same. I was taught that personally by two of the most powerful voices at that time: Harold B. Sighter:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev4MilZGesU
And Oliver B. Greene
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http://www.thegospelhour.org/
I went through two or three C. I. Scofield reference bibles very carefully for four years or so and had their system down very well. There were things that I could not reconcile with what I was reading OUTSIDE of those notes on the scriptures, so I gave myself totally seeking truth APART from a bible with notes, which without question plays a part in one's understanding. It was not very long after that that I realized that I had been deceived, toward the late seventies I'm thinking it was. Now that being said, I still have very high regards for those men and their love and faith in God, that has never changed.


Well, I never have believed that junk put out by Scofield, nor the ones he got his doctrine from, like John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving in 1830's Britain, and the Margret MacDonald clan. I don't believe in a Pre-trib Rapture. Nor do I have respect for those men in general, because I believe they were charlatans.

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You have given as a reference of support 2 Thess.2:4; Matt.24:23-26; Daniel 11; Rev.11:1-8 none of which would support your eschatology understanding, even though you may think so. Let us start and consider the man of sin from 2nd Thess. 2 if you would not mine, especially since you yourself gave the reference as a support for your position.


I'd be careful about such rash statements (as that in bold), you may have to eat those words at a later date.
 

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Brother, I agree that the Antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same, without question they are indeed. Where we disagree is who the man of sin that Paul is speaking about? We truly do not have to go very far to understand just who Paul is speaking about. The man of sin doctrine is the very SAME doctrine taught by Daniel, Jesus Christ and John. Jesus warned us of the man of sin when he spoke of the abomination of desolation, that Jesus quoted from Daniel who used the phrase.  John never used either phrases that Daniel and Jesus used, or Paul used, but he used the titles Antichrist and the beast and false prophet. ALL ONE AND THE SAME, and can easily be proven.

But for now, let us consider Paul's man of sin.
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2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


Brother in your system you have a serious problem to deal with and I will show you with this question: "Which comes first, Christ coming to gathered together us, or the man of sin being revealed?" The very reason why Paul wrote 2nd Thess 2, was too settled the minds of believers to let them know that Jesus will not come UNTIL and AFTER the man of sin has been revealed. Premillennialism teach Christ will come FIRST to REMOVE the church and THEN the the man of sin will be revealed, which they take to be ONE MAN, which that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures, it must be forced into one's theology with some very entertaining acrobatic gymnastics, along with cunning craftiness and sleight of hands.
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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We must not allow men to deceive us by any means. Paul said that the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is a key of understanding Paul's man of sin within this context) shall NOT COME except there be an falling away FIRST. This falling aways must happen and will happen BEFORE Christ returns again.  There is more...a falling away first will occur AND the man of sin being revealed. BOTH must happen before Jesus shall come again to gather us unto himself. So far there cannot be any disagreement if one is following Paul's words/doctrine concerning the last days before Jesus returns again.  I'm simple and I have no problem following what Paul is saying, and I do not believe others do if they refuse of being bias against the scriptures for the love of what they have been taught and what they have received in the past as truth.
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man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Coming back and finish...later


Your First Error:

You have wrongly assumed that Premill automatically means someone who believes in a Pre-trib Rapture of the Church. I am NOT Pre-trib. I believe in a POST-TRIBULATION COMING OF CHRIST JESUS AND GATHERING OF THE CHURCH.

All the Premill label itself means is someone who believes Jesus comes and gathers His Church prior to the Millennium. It does not have to point specifically to a Pre-trib Rapture belief.

I very much believe what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2 as written, i.e., that before Jesus comes to gather His Church, 2 main events must occur first, 1) a great falling away, and 2) the man of sin must be revealed (doing what though? sitting in the temple of God which has historically always meant Jerusalem).

Some try to supplant "the temple of God" in that 2 Thess.2:4 verse with the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 about the Church. That is impossible, since that would mean a corruption of that foundation of the spiritual Church Paul taught there, which is founded upon the prophets, the Apostles, with Christ Himself as the Chief Cornerstone. That would have to mean that false one of 2 Thess.2:4 could corrupt the spiritual temple in Heaven, which is impossible. Those who try to do that are simply 'cut off' from the spiritual temple which represents Christ's heavenly Church. Remember what Jesus said to Peter about established His Church?

Something else, which I think may be way... past your understanding at present, we are given a major hint who that "man of sin" is going to be per that 2 Thess.2. It ensures that is ain't gonna' be no pope, nor any flesh man. That title "son of perdition" applies to only two entities in all of God's Word. It was applied to Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus, whom our Lord said "is a devil" (John 6:70). But Judas had already died by this time when Paul wrote 2 Thess.2. That "son of perdition" title is applied again here, and it involves the idea of a devil. Need I say more? (This idea is confirmed in Revelation Scripture as well).

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #29 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:02:47 »

It really doesn't matter what the Jews in Jerusalem might build.  That has nothing to do with the end time of Judeo-Christian eschatology.

Hold that thought, until you see another Jewish temple built in Jerusalem, with sacrifices started up again. That is exactly what the Book of Daniel points to for the end, which Jesus linked with the seven signs of the end He gave in His Olivet discourse, and with the events of Revelation about the coming Antichrist, and about the "man of sin" who must be revealed sitting in the "temple of God" proclaiming himself as God, and over all that is even called God, or that is worshiped.


Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #30 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:05:10 »

I don't do seminary categorizations like Amill, Premill, etc., either. That's a waste of time, because like I said before, doing that tries to put a whole set of men's doctrines into someone's mouth which they may not even believe in. If you guys went to seminary, you really need to get back to the basic simplicity that is God's Holy Writ.

The fact that I do believe in a literal return of our Lord Jesus sometime in the future when He will gather His Church, after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24 but immediately before the Millennium of Rev.20, it doesn't matter to me that means Premill. The early 1st century Church fathers were Premill, so I've got good company, but do I make that a whole stance? No, of course not.

As for thinking that Satan is now bound, that is misunderstood per the Book of John. Jesus said in John 14 Satan ("prince") is coming, and Rev.12:7 forward shows Satan will be cast out of the Heavenly down to this earth in the last days, with his angels. So that is actually what the "cast out" idea is about, not some tradition of men that thinks Satan was bound when our Lord Jesus died on the cross.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV


That doesn't really sound like Satan is bound from this world now does it? Jesus said that after He said John 12:31. Right now Satan is in his abode in the Heavenly, and he is free to work evil upon this earth still, which can easily still be seen very much today once one takes their blinders off. Jesus showed us Satan is coming, which is what Rev.12:7 forward shows us, even that Satan's 'place' in Heaven is no more found at that point. When that future casting out happens, that is what will cause the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned us about. That is how it is that at Christ's 2nd coming Satan is then... bound... in chains and thrown into his pit prison for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ Jesus and His elect.

In Rev.3:9, our Lord Jesus showed us those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing in worship at the feet of Christ's elect. That has NEVER happened yet to this day. That event is set for the future 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect. So thinking that future 1,000 years is already past, or that we are already in it today, is a ludicrous thought when I look at Scripture and compare. Nowhere does such an idea even originate in God's Word.


The labels are just definitions of understanding.

Yes, many of the early church father were pre-mill & many were not, they were amill. They were the two understandings of the early church.

The pre-mill of the early church was completely different that what is thought today & did not expect a dual covenant racial fulfillment theology. As a matter of fact they thought the return to land is significant event pointing to the coming of antichrist. Hippolytus wrote ""I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it." And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm

But for a long time pre-mill fell to the wayside due to understanding like I explained about regarding Jesus' testimony in all four gospels regarding the binding of Satan illustrating the two verses in Revelation is signified. As stated in the very first verse of the Book. That Book does explain the binding only applies to deception of the nations. Prior to the Cross of Christ all nations were deceived & engaged in paganism & forms of apostasy. Why I also noted that the Gospel going throughout the world is evidence because it proves that Satan can not deceive those from believing the Gospel thus no longer able keep them in bondage.

To be quite frank I'm not so sure we are not in the time of the little season when he is unbound considering all that is ill with the world & Christendom in this late date.

Satan was already cast down. Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" Jesus instructed John in the first chapter "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" There are three components in Jesus' instruction to John, past - "hast seen", John's present - "which are", future - "shall be hereafter". When we study this book we have to be able to discern this as well. If it were not important for our understanding Jesus would not have told us.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:07:19 by TonkaTim »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #31 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:11:42 »
If you would please consider this about the Temple of God.

In the Davidic promises it is Christ who builds the Temple of God. It is built with "lively stones", the believers. In the tabernacles of men is where the Spirit of God dwells.


So if unbelievers build a temple with human hands it can not be the Temple of God. It maybe a temple of antichrist, but it is not the Temple of God.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #32 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:26:12 »
dpr,
I sent you a pm giving you the scriptural basis for Satan being bound now.  I hope you read it.  It is really too long to post here in the forum.

I'd be interested in reading. Would you send it to me as well?

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #33 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:26:52 »
Jesus' Olivet discourse was not given to show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. It parallels the events of the Seals in Revelation 6 which was given specifically to Christ's Church including events leading up to the end of this world and Christ's 2nd coming.
Brother you are correct. Brother, the 70 A.D. theory is JUST THAT, a theory as far as having any biblical relevant. That doctrine is much like the secret rapture theory if one had never heard of either them when coming to search the scriptures, then that person would leave the scriptures still NEVER knowing either one of them for they are BOTH a lie as far as having any part in biblical eschatology. The destruction of literal Jerusalem was not even on Jesus' mind when he gave the Olivet discourse, it is strictly dealing with the latter days of this world just before Christ return again, and his second coming.
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Matthew 24:36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This generation that shall not passed till all be fulfilled is (just as the context reveals to us) is the evil generation of the wicked...the ungodly of this world. Almost without exception when this generation phrase is used it always refers to evil and ungodly children of the old serpent. David so used it in this sense~Psalm 12, so the John the Baptist and Jesus~Matthew 3; Matthew 23.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:33:44 by RB »

Offline dpr

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Re: Heavenly Temple
« Reply #34 on: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:32:18 »
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2nd Thessalonians 2~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
dpr~it is clear that what follows in 2nd Thess. 2 must occur before Jesus returns for us. This is undisputable, and cannot be gainsay, without a wicked attempt to go against Paul's teaching to the first-century church.
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Let no man deceive you by any means
There are sundry and divers means used by the man of sin to deceive believers, and we must guard ourselves from those many means, by trying all spirits by the scriptures.
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for that day shall not come
What day? The day of Christ, which is according to Paul when Christ comes again to gather to together the church. So, without controversy, the second coming of Jesus will NOT COME until a prophesied event shall take place FIRST. So far, there can be NO disagreement, UNLESS one wants to question Paul's understanding, which it would not be wise to do so, now would it?
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except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
This is one and the same event~much like the second coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection are one and the same event. The great falling aways is the results of the man of sin ruling in the temple of God standing where he ought not to standing, which is an abomination in God's sight which he WILL make desolate in his day! So, just before the coming of Jesus Christ there will be a falling away from the faith, in so much as that if God does not shortened the last days, no flesh would be saved, that is in a practical sense of having true love for God; true knowledge of the truths of God, even though multitudes will say that Jesus is the Christ, yet it is another Jesus, another spirit, following another gospel.
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that man of sin be revealed
Who is this man of sin? Very simple~listen carefully....MAN of sin...man OF SIN! The man of sin is a man who lives under the power of SIN. This man will stand in the temple of God (or the professing worship places/buildings) professing that HE IS GOD~and this is done when one sets aside God's truth for their OWN doctrines and commandments. Much like the Pharisees did in Jesus day ONLY on a smaller scale than the man of sin will do in the last days of this world, just before Jesus' coming again.

Yes, I mostly agree with you on that. I believe in a Post-trib coming and gathering to Christ, remember?

The great falling away I see timed WITH that event of the man of sin revealed sitting in the temple of God. That will be "great tribulation" timing, the events Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse:

Matt 24:15-26
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


When the "abomination of desolation" is setup at the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, Jesus then gives this warning above to those of His in Jerusalem. That "holy place" is about the inner part of that new temple.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


These above verses our Lord is warning about that "man of sin" Paul spoke of, and the "another beast" which John spoke of, and the "vile person" Daniel spoke of. That is who will be behind placing the abomination idol in the temple for all to bow in false worship to; (Antiochus IV (170-165 B.C.) serves as a blueprint for this future event in Jerusalem).

The KJV phrase "false Christs" is Greek pseudochristos, made up of two Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and Christos which means Christ. The context of these 23 through 26 verses is singular, about a singular entity, the Antichrist. Our Lord warned those in Jerusalem when that man of sin is revealed there to not believe on him when others come up and say things like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", etc. The majority of the world is going to believe that man of sin is God. The Jews will think he is Messiah. Deceived Christian brethren will think he is our Lord Jesus.

Our Lord gave a very, very specific warning about the 'power' of deception that pseudo-Christ is going to do in Jerusalem in our near future. He showed that false one will work deception so powerful that IF possible, it would deceive Christ's own elect. What would it take to 'almost'... deceive Christ's own elect, one must ask? His own elect cannot be deceived in the first place, but if... they could be, what level of great signs and wonders would it take to almost deceive them? That is what that coming pseudo-Christ is going to do. Many believers will be tricked by that event in our near future.

The great signs and wonders that pseudo-Christ is going to do in Jerusalem, are the same signs, wonders, and miracles mentioned the false one of 2 Thess.2 and Rev.13:11 will do. So God's Word on this is NOT just talking of some flesh man coming that's a great orator and charlatan like a Hitler or some eastern guru. The pseudo-Christ is coming to works supernatural miracles on earth in the sight of men that would IF possible, deceive even Christ's own elect. The pseudo-Christ is coming to play... our Lord Jesus Christ. That is basically what Apostle Paul was revealing in 2 Corinthians 11 where he warned of the "another Jesus", and later said Satan is disguised (Greek meaning for "transformed") as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.


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Man of sin is a collective noun meaning ALL MEN who are living under the power of sin, regardless if they consider they do so or not. We used collective nouns when speaking of a group people who are known for doing the same vocation. Man of war is not one person, but all who go to war.  Man of God is used to includes ALL MEN who speak for God and that defends his cause. But a stronger prood is right here in the context under consideration~consider verses 11,12:
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And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them  that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Could it be any plainer? No, it cannot be.
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For the mystery of iniquity doth already work
Paul is saying the exact same thing that John said in 1st John 2:18. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the fall, only it will increase the greatest at the time when Jesus shall return again, so much so, that NO FLESH would be saved if the Lord had not shortened those days. The salvation in that scripture from Matthew 24:24, is not speaking of our physical flesh~but of our hearts toward the things of God based on his word NOT what we think his word should say and teach! So much more could be said on this point, but I have made my point clearly~so I must stop and move on.

No, that "man of sin" is not some collectivist sense idea. You cannot apply it that way since Paul definitely did not. Paul made it plain he was speaking of ONE PARTICULAR MAN, not to 'all men' like you've wrongly surmised.

Likewise it is in Matt.24:23-26, and in Dan.11, and in Rev.13:11 forward, they all are speaking of a specific singular entity, i.e., the coming Antichrist.

It is surprising that you would suddenly jump to that doctrine of men collectivist idea for "man of sin", especially since in your previous posts you said those Scriptures I mentioned were all about the same person, the Antichrist. You do realize teaching that collectivist sense goes against that don't you?
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2017 - 13:36:04 by dpr »

 

     
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