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Author Topic: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel  (Read 785 times)

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Offline LaSpino3

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Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« on: Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 16:28:18 »
I would like to keep this discussion on only the following three verses. After you read (CAREFULLY) the following three verses, you will have only three choices to make.

1. God can and will keep his promises to the Jewish people whom he has made his covenant with.

2. God cannot keep his promises.

3. God will keep some and not others.

Now, Hosea was written about 770 B.C. to 725 B.C.

Hosea 3:4-5, "The children of Israel shall abide many days (almost 2000 Years now) without a king, (Jesus) and without a prince, (Jesus the prince of peace) and without a sacrifice (Temple)... Afterward (in the latter days) shall the children of Israel (the Jews) return (May 1948), and seek (look for) the LORD (Jesus) their God, and David their king = (symbolic of Christ); and shall fear (seek after) the LORD and His goodness in the Latter days (last days)."

Afterward, in the above verse, is a word of time future.

Deut.30:4-5, "If any of thine (the Jews) be driven out (from their land 70 A.D.) from there will the LORD thy God gather them, and from there (foreign Gentile countries) will He (God) fetch (gather) them (the Jews): And the LORD thy God will bring thee (the Jews) into the land (Israel, 1948) which thy fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc.) possessed, and you (the Jews) shall possess it (the land of Israel); and He (God) will do you good, (aafter the tribulation) and multiply you above your fathers." (still future).

Ezekiel was written between 597 B.C. and 571 B.C.

Ezek.37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile’s) whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side (Russia, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey etc.), and bring them into their own land (Israel in 1948): I will make them (the Jews) one nation (Israel) they all shall have one shepherd (future prophesy of Christ’s return) they shall also walk in my (God’s) judgments, and observe my statutes ... I (God) will (this word insures that this promise will be fulfilled) make a covenant of peace with them (Jer.31:31); it shall be an everlasting covenant ... And the nations shall know that I the LORD (Jesus Christ) do sanctify (to make pure, holy, set apart) Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them (the Jews) for evermore (forever)." 

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Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« on: Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 16:28:18 »

bond

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #1 on: Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 16:56:52 »
For those who are interested, here are the REAL Bible verses, without any alterations:

Hosea 3: 4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

Deuteronomy 30: 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Ezekiel 37: 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”


=====


Phil, for the record, you cannot force people into a box when you alter what the Bible actually says.

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #1 on: Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 16:56:52 »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 04:39:26 »
Who is Israel? Who is the Church?

Lorraine Day, M.D.
 

The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament prophets and having no connection with God's promises of an earthly kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.

'While there are differences of opinion among Christian scholars who teach about Bible prophecy, the majority firmly believe the following five events have been definitely predicted by God to occur before the second coming of Jesus Christ:

(1) The rebirth of the state of Israel in 1948
(2) A soon coming "Seven Year Period of Great Tribulation"
(3) The rebuilding of the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount inside Jerusalem
(4) The rise of a mysterious man, the Antichrist, who will enter this rebuilt Jewish temple, proclaiming himself as God
(5) A final war against the nation of Israel, resulting in a Middle East battle of Armageddon" Exploding the Israel deception, Steve Wohlberg, pg 9.

They further believe that the "Israel" of the New Testament is the present-day literal nation of Israel even though most Jews are atheists and the other Jews, who are religious, do not believe in Jesus.

Let's look at Israel in 1) The Old Testament, 2) The New Testament, and in 3) Revelation.


What does the name Israel mean? Who first spoke the name?

Jacob, the son of Isaac and brother of Esau, was returning to his homeland after years of hiding in a far country for fear of his brother's revenge. Jacob, many years before, had stolen Esau's blessing by deceiving their father, and Esau had vowed to kill him. The name Jacob means supplanter (plotter or deceiver) which described Jacob's true character in his early life. But he had spent most of his adult life reaping what he had sown as others continued to deceive him. Eventually his heart was changed and so was his character.

Now, on his return to his homeland, it's nighttime. He has heard that his brother is coming after him with a large band of men, to kill him. Jacob is afraid for himself and his family. He sends his wives and children ahead and stays alone. Suddenly, in the middle of the night, he is approached by a ferocious stranger who attacks him in hand to hand combat. Jacob, undoubtedly thinking that his brother has found him, fights for his life. But after a time of struggling, the stranger touches Jacob's hip causing great pain. Jacob's hip is dislocated. The pain is excruciating.

Jacob now realizes that this Being is supernatural, and he hangs on pleading for a blessing. The "Angel" asks, "What is your name." (Of course, the angel already knows Jacob's name. He just wants him to say it.) When Jacob states his name, he is admitting that he is a deceiver. He has made confession for, and repented from, his years of deceit and his life course has been changed. His character has changed!

The "Angel" responds, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel (Prince with God); for you have struggled with God and with man and have prevailed."

The name "Israel" was a Spiritual name. It symbolized Jacob's spiritual victory over a life of deception. The human being, Jacob, a natural man, had now been given a spiritual name, "Israel", meaning "Overcomer."

Israel (formerly called Jacob) and his sons moved to Egypt because of a famine in the land of Caanan. Another one of Israel's sons, Joseph, had been sold into slavery by his brothers years before, but now Joseph had been elevated to the leader of Egypt, only surpassed by the Pharoah.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 04:40:15 »
OLD TESTAMENT

JACOB HAS HIS NAME CHANGED TO "ISRAEL"

The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing, the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob, but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed."

So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name. Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his character. The name Jacob means deceiver. So the name change symbolizes his transformation in CHARACTER.


"ISRAEL'S" (JACOB'S) SONS ARE ALSO CALLED ISRAEL-ITES (Heirs of Israel)


The Children of Israel went into Egypt

Ex. 1:1 "Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob." And then the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) are named. These are the literal "children of Israel" (children of Jacob) who went into Egypt.

Israel is called "My son, My firstborn"

Ex 4:21,22 "And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Vs 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, 'Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn. . . "

NOTE: The whole NATION is NOW called "Israel," not just Jacob (Israel).


The nation of Israel is called a "vine."

Ps 80:8 "Thou has brought a vine out of Egypt; thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it."


The nation of Israel is called a "servant."

Isa 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend."

Isa 49:3 "And said unto me, 'Thou art My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Isa 42:1-3 "Behold My servant . . . " This chapter outlines God's original plan for Israel which they failed to follow.

* * * * * Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt."

NOTE: The Nation of "Israel" is called:

1) "My son",
2) a "vine",
3) the "seed of Abraham",
4) God's "servant", and
5) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."



NOTE ALSO: Joseph (whose father was JACOB/ISRAEL) had dreams and went into Egypt.

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 04:40:15 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 17:35:17 »
For those who are interested, here are the REAL Bible verses, without any alterations:

Hosea 3: 4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

Deuteronomy 30: 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Ezekiel 37: 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”


=====


Phil, for the record, you cannot force people into a box when you alter what the Bible actually says.
::amen::

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 17:35:17 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #5 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 19:38:18 »
Bond, if your going to accuse me of doctoring the verses I quoted, and by the way, that makes you a liar, I quoted from the King James. And if you disagree with me, why don't you man up and take each verse, one at a time and give me your version, which I doubt you have.

It appears to me you have no ground to stand on because all you're good for is insignificant remarks, and nothing behind them but hot air, surely never any facts. Don't you ever accuse me of altering any of my work. I take the Bible seriously. 

n2night, what the heck are you talking about. Of course Jacob was changed to Israel, but he was still of the seed of Abraham, as was Isaac, and his 12 sons, and their sons and on and on! Are you saying because his name was changed to Israel he's no longer an heir of the promises and curses if they disobayed made to Abraham? Or Jacobs sons are no longer heirs of the promises and have and will continue to suffer the curses imposed on them by the LORD? If you are, then why did Jesus come to the Jews as their King?

Look, if any of you cant discuss a subject like gentlemen and ladies, don't waste my time with your snide remarks.


bond

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #6 on: Sat Dec 16, 2017 - 04:08:30 »
Bond, if your going to accuse me of doctoring the verses I quoted, and by the way, that makes you a liar,

This is a personal attack against me and a violation of the forum rules.  You most certainly did alter the Bible verses, and here is proof from your post:

Hosea 3:4-5, "The children of Israel shall abide many days (almost 2000 Years now) without a king, (Jesus) and without a prince, (Jesus the prince of peace) and without a sacrifice (Temple)... Afterward (in the latter days) shall the children of Israel (the Jews) return (May 1948), and seek (look for) the LORD (Jesus) their God, and David their king = (symbolic of Christ); and shall fear (seek after) the LORD and His goodness in the Latter days (last days)."

Deut.30:4-5, "If any of thine (the Jews) be driven out (from their land 70 A.D.) from there will the LORD thy God gather them, and from there (foreign Gentile countries) will He (God) fetch (gather) them (the Jews): And the LORD thy God will bring thee (the Jews) into the land (Israel, 1948) which thy fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc.) possessed, and you (the Jews) shall possess it (the land of Israel); and He (God) will do you good, (aafter the tribulation) and multiply you above your fathers." (still future).

Ezek.37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile’s) whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side (Russia, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey etc.), and bring them into their own land (Israel in 1948): I will make them (the Jews) one nation (Israel) they all shall have one shepherd (future prophesy of Christ’s return) they shall also walk in my (God’s) judgments, and observe my statutes ... I (God) will (this word insures that this promise will be fulfilled) make a covenant of peace with them (Jer.31:31); it shall be an everlasting covenant ... And the nations shall know that I the LORD (Jesus Christ) do sanctify (to make pure, holy, set apart) Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them (the Jews) for evermore (forever)." 

You infused each of those verses with your own theology and your own pre-conceived notions.  I posted the verses as they are and you attacked me.  You owe me an apology.  Sadly, I know you won't provide one.  Your pride and your arrogance will be your downfall.

I quoted from the King James. And if you disagree with me, why don't you man up and take each verse, one at a time and give me your version, which I doubt you have.

I don't need my own version.  God's version works just fine, without you adding your own alterations.

Look, if any of you cant discuss a subject like gentlemen and ladies, don't waste my time with your snide remarks.

Really?  You alter God's Word, call me a liar, launch a personal attack against me nd then claim I'm the one not being a gentlemen?

The sad thing is in spite of the proof I presented, you will deny altering God's Word and deny attacking me.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 15:02:28 »
Bond, then don't accuse me of altering Bible verses.

Offline notreligus

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 18:06:32 »
Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

God has kept His Old Testament promises, despite the fact that Dispensationals have made-up a Bible interpretation system to claim otherwise.   

The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is focused on Jesus Christ, not a nation, and not on multiple plans of reconciliation.   

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 18:39:58 »
Bond, then don't accuse me of altering Bible verses.
Even though you did?  Addition is an alteration, just as taking something away would be.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 17:01:58 »
I didn't add to any verses, I clarified the verses, big difference. Obviously you agree with Bond "Amen" but that doesn't make you right.

To alter, is to change!
What I did, I have always done and will continue to do so, that is to clarify certain words and persons where I deem it necessary. And when I do, I always put brackets around my words. Any GOOD teachers of the Bible does the same. 

To clarify (---) is to make clear things that may be misunderstood, from my point of view, so it can be understood by the reader.

Here's what I wrote,

Hosea 3:4-5, "The children of Israel shall abide many days (almost 2000 Years now) without a king, (Jesus) and without a prince, (Jesus the prince of peace) and without a sacrifice (Temple)... Afterward (in the latter days) shall the children of Israel (the Jews) return (May 1948), and seek (look for) the LORD (Jesus) their God, and David their king = (symbolic of Christ); and shall fear (seek after) the LORD and His goodness in the Latter days (last days)."

Deut.30:4-5, "If any of thine (the Jews) be driven out (from their land 70 A.D.) from there will the LORD thy God gather them, and from there (foreign Gentile countries) will He (God) fetch (gather) them (the Jews): And the LORD thy God will bring thee (the Jews) into the land (Israel, 1948) which thy fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc.) possessed, and you (the Jews) shall possess it (the land of Israel); and He (God) will do you good, (aafter the tribulation) and multiply you above your fathers." (still future).

Ezek.37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile’s) whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side (Russia, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey etc.), and bring them into their own land (Israel in 1948): I will make them (the Jews) one nation (Israel) they all shall have one shepherd (future prophesy of Christ’s return) they shall also walk in my (God’s) judgments, and observe my statutes ... I (God) will (this word insures that this promise will be fulfilled) make a covenant of peace with them (Jer.31:31); it shall be an everlasting covenant ... And the nations shall know that I the LORD (Jesus Christ) do sanctify (to make pure, holy, set apart) Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them (the Jews) for evermore (forever)." 

Tell me where I'm wrong.

Phil 

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 17:35:47 »
Here is the definitions of clarify: make (a statement or situation) less confused and more clearly comprehensible.

Here is the definition of alter: change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way

You did the latter.  You added words that have nothing to do with the scriptures.  You injected your preconceived notions into God's Word, altering its meaning.

I'm done arguing with you.  I predicted you would deny any wrong doing, and you did.  You will continue to deny any wrongdoing.  I've fulfilled my obligation under Ezekiel 3.  I'm done. 

Offline Alan

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #12 on: Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 06:37:39 »
Clearly the verses quoted in the OP have been altered, if they have not been altered I would like to see the bible version these were quoted from.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #13 on: Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 17:11:59 »
Not one of you have explained how these verses have been altered. Because this is supposed to be a discussion and debate forum, I feel when I do post any comments, it is important for me to clarify my position as to who is speaking, to whom they are speaking, where, when and why if necessary. Also it is important to represent every pronoun in a verse.  Who is the I, the me; or who is the he, the him, the they, the them etc.

To say I have doctored the verses is to accuse me of being a thief of the word of God.

Here is my challange to any one of the verses I posted. Explain it so it can be understood by others as to the who's when and why's.

Hosea 3:4-5, "The children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice ... Afterward shall the children of Israel  return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the Latter days."

Deut.30:4-5, "If any of thine be driven out from there will the LORD thy God gather them, and from there will He fetch them: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will do you good, and multiply you above your fathers."

Ezek.37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: I will make them one nation they all shall have one shepherd they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes ... I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant ... And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."
 
Here is my last word on the subject, if you're not comfortable with my posts, nobody is twisting your arm to read or respond to it. If you disagree, don't accuse me of "altering verses".

You can write your own posts and give your own interpretation. but, I'm willing to wager is, "NONE OF YOU WILL!."

One more thing, paranthesis are found in the Bible just as I have done, it's to clarifiy.

Phil

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 09:31:21 »
I'm waiting

Phil

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 10:24:55 »
Let's just do the first one, shall we?

Hosea 3:4-5, "The children of Israel shall abide many days (almost 2000 Years now)

You have injected the notion that this abiding continues to the present day.  This is not in the verse.  Many people would say that the wait ended when Jesus came and restored the House of Israel.

"without a king, (Jesus) and without a prince, (Jesus the prince of peace)"

The verse clearly means that there is no king whatsoever.  While I appreciate the intent, limiting it to the ultimate version of the same obfuscates the meaning, rather than clarifying.

"and without a sacrifice (Temple)..."

The absence of a temple and the absence of sacrifice are not the same thing.  In this particular case, Hosea is prophesying about the northern kingdom.  They did not stop sacrificing because of a lack of temple.  They stopped sacrificing because they had a succession of evil kings, and God destroyed them.  The temple in the southern kingdom was still standing during much of the period in question.  Again, you have associated things in a way that makes things fuzzier, rather than clear.

"Afterward (in the latter days)"

This one is fine.  Hosea himself uses "latter days," so you are entirely correct.

"shall the children of Israel (the Jews)"

Complete failure.  The prophet Hosea, of all prophets, is very focused on the division between the northern and southern kingdoms, and how God is dealing with them differently.  See Hosea 1.

return (May 1948),

Jesus restored Israel to existence during his ministry.  The WW2-era event is not in view in Hosea.

And so on and so forth...

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Hosea, Deut. and Ezekiel
« Reply #16 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 10:22:55 »
Wycliffes: I appreciate your comments, but we are so far apart on end time prophesy, I don't see any way we can agree on anything.

Have a healthy and prosperous New Year.

Phil