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Offline Feedmysheep

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How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 18:09:46 »
 We were discussing the scope of possibilities Christ has with His saved believers after His second coming.

  The parables speaking of the servant being cast into the outer darkness came up. And this response was submitted:

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

  Those who find themselves cast out of the Kingdom will be those who have never trusted Jesus Christ with their lives, and have never been regenerated. They are not true servants. Many live in fear of a harsh taskmaster, and that keeps them out of the House of Love. How many times did Jesus say, "Fear not"?

The eyes of God can see the difference between a spiritual sheep and a spiritual goat.

We cannot always detect the tares. They are identical to wheat.

   Now we have a couple of parables in which a servant of the Lord was can apparently be cast into "the outer darkness". For example in Matthew 25:14-30.

   1.) All three servants received the possessions of the master:

     "For the kingdom of the heavens is just like a man about to go abroad, who called his own slaves and delivered to them his possessions." (25:14)

   Does the Lord deliver His possessions to the unbeliever in this way along with the believer? I say no. All three servants are true Christians.

  2.) The unfaithful servant received the master's possession in the same manner as the two faithful ones:

  "But he who had receive the one went off and dug in the earth and hid his master's money." (v. 18)

  3.) Verse 18 clearly says that the master of the other two was also "his master" who is the slothful servant.

    Up to this point there is still no indication that a false Christian is being depicted.

 4.) As the two came before the master so also the slothful servant came:

 "Then he who had received the one talent also came and said, Master, I knew about you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow. And I was afraid and went off and hid your talent n the earth, behold, you have what is yours." (v.24,25)

  5.) In verse 26 the master of the other two is still called this one's master as well:

 "And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave ..." (v.26)

 6.) The master does not disagree with the slothful slaves evaluation of the master as a serious business man:

   "And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow. Therefore you should have deposited my money with the money changers and when I came, I would have recovered what is mine with interest." (v.27)

  7.) The discipline administered to the slothful servant is him being cast into the outer darkness:

   "And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (v.30)

    To interpret this punishment as eternal damnation is strictly speculative. It does not have to be eternal. The Lord's second coming commences a 1,000 year kingdom BEFORE the eternal age begins.

  8.)  If we do interpret "the outer darkness" here as eternal perdition then it follows that salvation from eternal punishment is by WORKS. For it was the lack of WORKS that caused the slothful servant to be cast into the outer darkness.

 9.) If we conclude that the servant was cast into eternal punishment because of the lack of works we automatically imply that the other two servants were saved by their works.

 This is against the truth of justification by faith.

 10.) It is better to realize that the teaching is not concerning eternal salvation verses eternal punishment. Rather it is a teaching concerning dispensational reward during the millennial kingdom or dispensational discipline during that time.

  11.) Though we are not told explicitly in Matthew 25:14-30 that the punishment was temporary, the parellel passage shows a servant being punished UNTIL a certain lesson was learned.

    That is in the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:23-35 which concludes -

 "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.

 So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts."



 I am not saying that the object lessons of the two teachings are identical. The point is that they both concern the dealing of Christ with His servants after His return to them in the second coming. Therefore they are teachings about His judging of His people at the commencment of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. Some of us know that that is the major dispensation to follow the second coming of Christ.

 And this unforgiving servant is to be discipliened UNTIL a certain time which can only indicate a LIMIT to his discipline.  That he should repay all that was owed the master should not mean that he can possibly pay the Savior back for His redemptive forgiveness.

 It should mean that he is discipined until he repays the Lord concerning the lesson of learning to forgive his fellow Christian. But the main point is that his punishment is corrective and temporary.

 11.) It is hard to interpret either servant as a false Christian. A sinner is NOT saved by forgiving those who offended him. And a sinner is not saved by trading with the talent given to him by the Lord.

 Justification unto etenal redemption is by faith alone. Romans and John are clear about that.

 12.) The most logical interpretation is that we should refrain from applying lessons of eternal redemption to  either the Matthew 18 or 25 parable of the Lord's servants. They are lessons not on eternal redemption but on dispensational reward or punishment.

 And the punishment should not be more than 1,000 years. It may be some portion of that time. And it may vary according to the severity of the situation.

  Now, I agree with LivelyStone that the teaching of the wheat and tares advizes that the Christians cannot always discern who is a true believer and who is a false believer.

  But the slothful servant definitely has received SOMETHING from the master. A false believer has NOT received from the master.

 Now the Lord says : "Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to every one who has, [more] shall be given, and he shall abound, but to from him who does not havem, even that which he has shall be taken away from him." (v.28,29)


 It is not that the one talented servant did not have. It is that he considers that he does not have. This reminds us of our Christian life in the realm of service. We often look around and consider that we cannot do what other Christians can do. Compared to them we have less. So we do not do business with what the Lord has entrusted to us.

 This is not an unbeliever who has nothing from God. This is an believer who thinks that because he has less then the next servant of God, he does not have to do the Lord's business with what he has.

  Think of what could happen if every "one talented" member of the Lord's church would rise up to do the Lord's business with what the Lord has given him. So the teaching of Matthew 25:14-30 is not about a false Christian who received nothing from Christ.

 It is about a true Christian servant who was slothful to serve because he considered that he had nothing. Perhaps because he looked around and compared himself to others, he assumed that he had less from God and need not serve because of that.

 The Lord does not accept his excuse. And I submit that while other servants enjoy the kingdom responsibility this slothful one is temporarily cast into some "outer darkness" during that kingdom time.

  The punishment cannot last more than 1,000 years. And it may last some portion of that time as the Lord deems appropriate.

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:14:00 by Feedmysheep »

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How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 18:09:46 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 18:18:54 »
I have no idea where you are coming from abouit the 1000 year punishment.

I hope you are not espousing a Universalist doctrine that the wicked only suffer disciplinary punishment, until they pay for their sin.

NO ONE is required to REPAY anything!

Jesus paid it all.

The unworthy servant is the unregenerate person, who has rejected his salvation, once embraced. These kinds of people are described in the parable of the Sower.

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 18:18:54 »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 18:20:31 »


 Try at least to read through the post again carefully.

 I do not mind your disagreement. But I do want your understanding of what it is I am writing.

 

larry2

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 21:31:07 »

Quote from: Feedmysheep

Does the Lord deliver His possessions to the unbeliever in this way along with the believer? I say no. All three servants are true Christians.


Do you realize that blessings fall on the believer and the unbeliever? For instance the different bodily gifts given unto men. Some unbelievers have a much greater gift of leadership than I do. Do they hide it from God? Yes and will have no reward for its use.

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Psalm 139:14 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made." Does this extend to only the believer?

Do I believe a believer is ever cast into outer darkness? No, and in whatever timeframe we see Jesus, He will have our reward with Him. I do believe we can lose reward. Hopefully I understood what you were saying. As to separation from God, He will never leave or forsake us and David said it this way in Psalms 139:8. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

My thoughts.

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 21:31:07 »
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Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 06:52:33 »
 
Quote from: larry2

  Do you realize that blessings fall on the believer and the unbeliever? For instance the different bodily gifts given unto men. Some unbelievers have a much greater gift of leadership than I do. Do they hide it from God? Yes and will have no reward for its use.

   I agree with you that in the natural realm God has given to believers and unbelievers alike certain blessings for their natural life.  One is blessed with a certain skill and someone else with another ability.

   But I don't think the giving of the talents are these natural abilities because man cannot build up the kingdom of God with his natural abilities. Only a worldly organization can be built up with the natural worldly abilities of the natural man.

   Our natural ability has to pass through the cross, be transformed by the Lord. Paul said that he and his coworkers had no confidence in the flesh.

  "For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

  Paul was indeed naturally gifted as an intelligent man. He learned that he could not put confindence in his natural ability. Only by undergoing the "circumcision" of the cross, in putting His trust in the Spirit, could that ability be useful. He had to be completely subdued by the Holy Spirit, denying himself and undergoing the process of sanctification.

  The Old Covenant demanded works before life. One had to produce the works in order to become one of the children of God. The New Covenant is different. It first imparts life to produce children of God. Then the kingdom demands works to be servants of the Son. And the order is reversed because God does not want us to serve in the natural flesh of the fallen Adamic man.

 He gives the life of the Son that we not only be born of God as children but serve in the life of the Son.

 
Quote from: larry2

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

   It is a excellent point. In this verse the Creator is impartial about His sun and His rain. both the evil and the good are benefitted by His creation. And He is no respector of persons in this realm. The evil are mentioned first before the good and then the just are mentioned first before the unjust.

  But I will try to show you that these blessings of the natural world are not the talents given by the Lord to His bondslaves.

  In Matthew 5:45 the disciples are to do the will of God so as to become sons to express their Father - "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because He causes His sun to rise ... etc."

  Matthew wants to emphasize doing the will of God to become sons of the Father. This is the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens. It is full of teachings on responsibility and closeness to God because of doing His will:

 " ... He answered and said to him who spoke to Him, Who is My mother, and who are My brothers ? And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!

 For whoever does the will of My Fathe who is in the heavens, he is My brothers and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:48-50)


 This is somehwat like the Old Covenant in that the intimate relationship with God comes about because of doing the will of God.
 
 In John's Gospel the most intimate term that Jesus used to refer to His disciples was "friends" in John 15. But only after His death and resurrection does He say that He ascends to His Father and their Father (John 20:17) and He refered to them for the first time as "BROTHERS":

 Compare these two passages to see.

  Before His death and resurrection:

 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all the things which I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." (John 15:14,15)

  After His death and resurrection:

 "Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to My BROTHERS and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

   In John's gospel the disciples graduate from friends of Jesus before His resurrection to brothers of Jesus after His resurrection. In the eyes of God we Christians were all regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Peter 1:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

John wants to emphasize that the disciples only became regenerated children of God, brothers of Jesus owning His own Father as their Father too, through Christ's redemption and resurrection from the dead.

Matthew does not share this emphasis. Rather Matthew records that Jesus refers to the Father of the children of God in His sermon on the mount. I accept both evangelists' gospels as the word of God.

 I think the talents as the Lord's riches meant for His interprise are to be interpreted as things of the divine life. The rain and the sun, without question, is a great blessing upon all mankind. I think though that the talents or money of the Lord refers to things of His divine Spirit of life which is only imparted to the regenerated people.


Quote from: larry2

Psalm 139:14 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made." Does this extend to only the believer?


 No. It does not extend only to the believer. You are quite correct that there are blessings in the natural realm which are so to ALL peoples regardless if they are believers or unbelievers.

   But look at the teaching carefully.

  Verse 14 - "For it is as when a man, going into another country" This is not God the Creator of the good sun and good rain. This is a MAN (God incarnate) who is going away in ascension after His redemptive death and resurrection. He ascends to heaven as a "far country" . This going away to a far country should point to the ascension of the Lord Jesus the God-man (See Hebrews 9:11, 1 Pet. 3:22)  

This Traveler "Called his own servants". These should be the people who He has BOUGHT with His redemption. These should not be the unsaved but those who have been bught with a price by the Lord.

 He delivers unto them His goods. These should be the "goods" of the One in resurrection who is about to ascend to heaven, a far country.  For this reason I think the blessed rain or the blessed sunshine or even the blessed natural abilities of the born unbeliever are the goods spoken of here.

 Rather, the truth of the Gospel, the gifts of the Spirit, and the things bestowed upon the redeemed are meant as the Lord's money. And His going away to another country is like a TEST to His servants to see how faithful they will be.

 This is not a matter of their relationship as children of the Father with eternal life. It is a matter of SERVANTS of the Lord for doing the business of the kingdom of the heavens.

  For this reason I do not believe the punished servant is losing his eternal redemption. Nor do I believe to be cast into the outer darkness is to lose the gift of eternal life. For that is a gift and not a recompense for work:

 "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)

 And clearly the believer is not granted eternal life based upon works which he has done but according to God's mercy:

 " .... when the kindness and the love to man of our Savior God appeared, not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us ..." (Titus 3:4,5a)

 With this firm grasp of justification by faith and eternal redemption and eternal life by the gift of God, the parable of the talents cannot be a teaching relating to securing eternal redemption.

 The faithful servants cannot work in order to be saved. Nor can the unfaithful servant perish because of not working.

 But in the manifestation of the kingdom reward or discipline for service is being taught here. The reward is not eternal life. And the punishment is not eternal perdition. Both the reward and the punishment relate to the position of the servant in the millennial kingdom based upon his service through the church age.

 It is at that time the Lord went away to a far country and delivered to the saved saints His riches to see how they would profit His kingdom "business."

Quote from: larry2

Do I believe a believer is ever cast into outer darkness?


 But if we say that the servant who is cast into the outer darkness is not a Christian, then what logically follows ?

 It logically follows that he was lost eternally because he did not work. And conversely, the two servants who were rewarded were saved eternally because of thier works.

  By teaching that the servant cast to outer darkness is a false Christian you immediately weaken justification by faith and eternal life is no longer the GIFT but the reward for WORK. This is a mistake.  

 The solution is that the teaching is not about eternal life or eternal redemption. It is about temporary reward or discipline during the time BEFORE the new heaven and new earth, the eternal age.

 For when Jesus returns to deal with His servants it is the beginning of the millennial kingdom and not the beginning of the eternity spoken of in Revelation 21 and 22. I believe five or six times we are told of the kingdom reign for 1000 years in Revelation 20.
 See 20:2,3,,4,5,6,7 for the "thousand years."

  If this period of a thousand year kingdom is right then why would not the Gospel of Matthew's parables about the Lord's return be dealing with matters concerning that period ?
 
 
Quote from: larry2


No, and in whatever timeframe we see Jesus, He will have our reward with Him. I do believe we can lose reward. Hopefully I understood what you were saying. As to separation from God, He will never leave or forsake us and David said it this way in Psalms 139:8. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

My thoughts.

 I would not say that for the servant to be cast into the outer darkness is to be utterly away from God. However, the Lord Jesus here is the reigning King upon the earth. There well could a realm far away from Jesus on His  throne  of bright glory in Jerusalem.

 This casting into outer  darkness is of one saved eternally. So he is not utterly without God. I think the casting out is remedial and corrective rather than retribution.

  Now concerning the talents delivered by the master to the servants. Some points:

 1.) A talent here is something which a Christian has but which an unbeliever does not have, because the Lord gave them to His own slaves in the parable. He did not give the talents to any one else's servants.

 2.) The telents were given according to each one's ability and not casually or indiscriminatly.

 3.) The talent can be encreased through earning.

 4.) The talents can be taken back.

 5.) The telents seem not to be ordinarily given to men by God. Rather they are given here by the man representing the Lord Jesus in ascension. Christ ascended to heaven as going away to a far country. He will return one day to bring His servants before the judgment seat of Christ.

  All such ones before that judgment seat are securely and eternally saved already.

  I don't believe that the talents represent property, position, influence, time, life, personal character in the natural realm, a keen mind, health, church position, position in religion,

  This money may be the gift of the Holy Spirit which the Lord possesses exclusively (Acts 2:38). And which gift can be distributed (Acts 19:6). The enjoyment of this Holy Spirit can be encreased (1 Cor. 14:12-13).

   This Spirit saturating the soul of the believer can encrease in that sense more and more. If we serve with this Spirit we will deepen our experience with Him. In that way there is an encrease of the Lord's riches with us.

 Our natural ability cannot perform the Lord's work. But if we are sanctified and filled with this Spirit He can use our abilities when they bear the fragrance of Jesus Christ rather than old Adam.

  Peter was a fisher of men through the power of the Holy Spirit. Peter also went through considerable transformation. Through faithfulness and trial and error he learned not to trust himself. But the Holy Spirit could use him as he was sanctified.

  Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given from the ascended Christ on Pentacost. And Paul told Timothy to stir up the gift of God that was in him (2 Tim. 1:6).  All believers have the gift of the Holy Spirit. All believers have at least ONE talent. No believer can say he or she has no gift from the Lord whom they serve.

  Five one talented Christians who are not afraid to serve the Lord equal one Christian with five talents. There are probably far far more one talented members of the Christian church than five talented ones.

  For length sake I must stop here.  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:22:11 by Feedmysheep »

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 06:52:33 »



Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 09:49:39 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


    have no idea where you are coming from abouit the 1000 year punishment.


  

 It is quite logical. Both the rewards of the Lord and the punishments of the Lord as pertaining to His redeemed people relate to the time after His second coming.

 Read about this time of 1,000 years following His second coming in Revelation 20. The thousand years is mentioned five or six times.

 This period is fulfillment of much prophecy in the Bible. And it must end before there is the new heaven and new earth of eternity in Revelation 21 and 22.

  Not just the negative pertains to that thousand years but the very positive as well.

Quote from: LivelyStone

I hope you are not espousing a Universalist doctrine that the wicked only suffer disciplinary punishment, until they pay for their sin.


 I am not advocating universalism. The perishing of the unbeliever in the lake of fire is not corrective. It is retribution and vengence from God. It is not meant to improve.

 However, any discipline of the Father towards His sons is corrective. And during the church age He does correct. But not only in the church age but also in the 1000 years following Christ's second coming.

 All perfecting must be finished before the new heaven and the new earth come in in Revelation 21 and 22.

 God is so very soveriegn. And a total remake of the creation will not take place until all of His redeemed people have been fully sanctified, glorified, transformed and made to express Christ their Elder Brother.

 The portion of them who have been matured are rewarded in the 1,000 years.


Quote from: LivelyStone

NO ONE is required to REPAY anything!

Jesus paid it all.

The unworthy servant is the unregenerate person, who has rejected his salvation, once embraced. These kinds of people are described in the parable of the Sower.


 Of course no one can repay the Lord for His redemptive death for our sins. You are quite right. Only God knows the full worth of His Son's precious blood. It will take us unto eternity to appreciate the full value of His eternal redemption.

 I have no debate on that matter.

 Having said that, your comparison to the parable of the Sower is only  partially correct. You should realize that only the seeds stolen from by the birds should represent the lost.

 The seeds stolen from the heart by the birds who probably represent demons, would correspond to those who hear the word of the kingdom and it is totally robbed from them by the Devil. They do not believe to be saved.

 The other three kinds of soils should represent the saved. The issue here is not HOW saved they are eternally but how FRUITFUL they are.

 Some are turned back by persecution. But they are still eternally saved.
 Some are choked by the anxieties of the world which limits their fruitfulness. But they TOO are eternally saved.

 And some with patience and longsuffering DEAL with their hearts. And these bear fruit 20 fold, 60 fold, and 100 fold. Obviously these are fruitful servants of the Lord.

 The two parables intersect here, I believe. The TWO servants who made a profit for the master correspond to the believer with 30 fold, 60 fold, or 100 fold fruitfulness. Generally speaking they made some fruit and profit in their Christian service.

 The servant cast into the outer darkness is probably one of the other two unfortunate cases where either enxiety or persecution or something ELSE, like slothfulness, hindered him from producung fruit unto the Lord.

 He is nevertheless saved as also the two cases of rocky soil and thorny soil.

 I do NOT believe that the servant cast into the outer darkness is unsaved.
 
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:37:16 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 12:54:17 »
You need to drop the Millennium as a time for perfecting of anyone. Jesus will be on the throne out of Jerusalem and the saints will be already rewarded and changed into incorruptible bodies, and serving Him in their rewarded roles as government over the surviving nations of mortals out of Tribulation.

There is no more perfecting or maturing required of the saints!

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 13:25:14 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


   You need to drop the Millennium as a time for perfecting of anyone. Jesus will be on the throne out of Jerusalem and the saints will be already rewarded and changed into incorruptible bodies, and serving Him in their rewarded roles as government over the surviving nations of mortals out of Tribulation.

There is no more perfecting or maturing required of the saints!

   Then are you saying that the Lord should DROP correcting the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:33-35 ?

  "Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you ?    And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.  So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgicve his brother from your hearts."

  Should the heavenly Father DROP this discipline of the unforgiving disciple in order  to conform with your theology ?

  
  Should the Lord DROP His warning that some servants would be disciplined with few lashes and others with many lashes ?

  "The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect [him] and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

 And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes.  But he who did not knw, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes." (Luke 12:46-48)


   Do you demand of Christ that He suspend His discipline of these unprepared servants in order to conform to your theology ? Perhaps YOU are in error and not the Lord.

  Besides, the Lord LOVES all of His servants. Why do you want to deny Him His authority to use the millennial time that they also may be perfected ? It is out of His love that the Father scourges every son whom He receives (Hebrews 12:5-14) .

  "But if you are without discipline, of which all [sons] have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Heb. 12:8)

  Are you suggesting that in the millennium some unperfected sons of the Father should be then discarded as illegitimate bastards and not given lessons by which they may partake of His holiness ?

  "Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord." (v. 14)

  
 
  
 

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 13:51:07 »
Judgment doesn't render discipline or correction toward change. It is judgment, and final.


Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 14:35:08 »

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   Judgment doesn't render discipline or correction toward change. It is judgment, and final.


 That depends. I would think you would know better than to make a broad generalization like that.

 Was the brother in Corinth who was judged and told to stay away from the church not CORRECTED ? He repented and came back, no longer addicted to the worst kind of fornication.

 Was that backslidden brother not judged by the Holy Spirit, the church in Corinth, and the Apostle Paul ? Was that not a corrective judgment ?

 " ... Do you not JUDGE those who are within [the church] ? But those who are outside, God will judge. Remove the evil man from amng yourselves." (1 Cor. 5:12,13)

 We see that this sinning brother was beautifully reconciled back to the fellowship of the church in Paul's second letter. That was a corrective judging which turned out quite positively.


  I can here you protest - "That is not a judgment after the second coming of Christ".

  But you see, if we have unconfessed sins, we have to acknowledge the wrong doing of them SOMETIME. And if we die with sins which we did not deal with, we have to deal with them sometime.

  The flavor and style of those remedial dealings will not have the same "taste" as in the age of grace. I cannot tell you exactly how it will be different.  But it will be different.

  And this judging from Jesus at His judgment seat results not JUST in rewards or loss of rewards. This judging of Christ at His judgment seat can result in specific discipline, correction, few or many lashes, being cut asunder, being burnt in the fire, being cast into outer darkness.

 I warn every Christian reading this post, including myself. Jesus has a large scope of possible things He can do to adjust His children after His second coming and before the age of eternity.

  His lattitude is very wide. It may range from light to severe to VERY severe discipline. You simply have to put all the passages together without preference.

 Why would you not expect the wisest Judge in all the universe to have at His disposal a wide variety of possible remedies for those in the house of God ?

  The scope of possibilities SHORT of condemning one to eternal perdition is wide.
  And His rewards can cover a wide span also.

  Challenge this and you will see the truth come out more and more.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 14:46:52 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


   You need to drop the Millennium as a time for perfecting of anyone. Jesus will be on the throne out of Jerusalem and the saints will be already rewarded and changed into incorruptible bodies, and serving Him in their rewarded roles as government over the surviving nations of mortals out of Tribulation.
 


 I am not yet sure how this will all play out in relation to our bodies.

 But I think many of us are in for some surprise of some kind.
 We always have a foolish thought that God is locked into something which makes it impossible for Him to deal with His people righteously.

 Frankly, we should have learned some lessons from the FIRST coming of Christ and how in some aspects it surprised the Jews.

 Do you think there will be NO surprises in His second coming ?
 A close examination of the Scripture suggests that we should not be too presumptous.

   I expect that there will be some surprises even given all His wonderful positive promises. The accompanying warnings necessitate it.

  Did we read that God was not mocked. And did we read that whatsoever a man sows he will reap ?  Did Paul write that to Christians in the churches of Galatia ?

 Or did Paul say "Excuse me. I have something I want to say to the unbelievers" ?

 Christian - God is not mocked !  Do some of us think that God can be mocked ?
 Do some of us  think we have our free " ticket to heaven " and  God can be mocked ?

  We need sober teaching today even if we are eternally redeemed.
  
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 14:56:30 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 15:05:06 »
 We Christians may reconcile dispensational discipline with the GIFT of eternal life carefully and fairly.

You see there is no assumption on my part that when Jesus saves a man He has no possibility to further adjust, correct, or perfect that man. That is a false assumption.

Once the Lord Jesus receives a believing sinner, there exists a wide scope of possible disciplines He may administer to that forgiven sinner aside from going back on His promise that such shall never perish forever.

In fact the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth does not even commence immediatley upon the second coming of Christ. We see that the span of 1,000 years as a preliminary millennial kingdom is mentioned five or six times after the battle of Armegeddon and before the eternal age of Revelation 21 and 22:

1.) The millennial kingdom - "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the abyss and a great chain. And he lais hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:1,2)
 


 During that thousand years Christ still has time to work on some of His saved saints.

2.) The millennial kingdom - " ... that he [Satan] might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed ..." (v.3)

During that thousand years Christ has time to further perfect some of his saints who did not produce proper works in the age of grace. Though they have eternal life they need further sanctification in order to LIVE that life and enjoy that life.

3.) The millennial kingdom - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded becausee of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, ... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (v.4)

During that thousand years all who have received the gift of eternal life will be divided into those rewarded for this period and those in need of further perfecting.

Once saved from eternal perdition always saved from eternal perdition. That does NOT mean that Christ cannot further discipline His saved saint during this preliminary 1,000 year kingdom.

4.) The millennial kingdom - "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (v. 5)

Between the first resurrection and the second resurrection 1,000 years latter, Jesus Christ still has time to perform some dispensational perfecting of those saints who are in need of it.

5.) The millennial kingdom - " Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (v. 6)

Examining the New Testament carefully we see that to reign is a reward shared by some overoming saints. So the Lord still has a thousand years in which defeated Christians can be matured.

They do not lose the gift of eternal redemption or eternal life. They do have to be further shepherded into living that eternal life.

6.) The millennial kingdom - "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will bereleased from his prison." (v. 7)

Before Satan goes to eternal damnation and before the age of the new heaven and new earth, Christ still has 1,000 years in which to accomplish some matters over His people.

Too many people fail to notice that the eternal age does not commence immediately upon the second coming of Christ or at the resurrection of all His saints.

No one who is born of God will perish forever as the Lord promised. Their eternal redemption is secure. Their reward or discipline based upon works is not garuanteed though.

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 15:27:12 »

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   Judgment doesn't render discipline or correction toward change. It is judgment, and final.


 That depends.

Don't wander all over the map.

We are talking about the final judgment of God.


Quote
And this judging from Jesus at His judgment seat results not JUST in rewards or loss of rewards. This judging of Christ at His judgment seat can result in specific discipline, correction, few or many lashes, being cut asunder, being burnt in the fire, being cast into outer darkness.

Sorry, but once we have taken on our glorified body, we are already fully sanctified and not in any state of growth---or correction. We, who are Christ's will be receiving reward. Yes, there will be subtractions of rewards that were prepared for us, but there will be no condemnation.

Quote
I warn every Christian reading this post, including myself. Jesus has a large scope of possible things He can do to adjust His children after His second coming and before the age of eternity.

That's just silly, and not based on anything Biblical. We will already be fully sanctified, wearing our immortality, having already received our reward, and REIGNING and RULING with Him!!!

Our focus will be on Him and His reign over the nations, and their restoration, and that the nations love and obey Him



Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #13 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 17:15:07 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


    Don't wander all over the map.

We are talking about the final judgment of God.


  It is not a matter of wandering all over the map. It is a matter if acknowledging that the New Testament teaches more than just one judgment.

  The judgment at the great white throne after the millennium is not the same as the judgment of believers at the judgment seat of Christ before the start of the millennium.

  
Quote from: LivelyStone

Quote
And this judging from Jesus at His judgment seat results not JUST in rewards or loss of rewards. This judging of Christ at His judgment seat can result in specific discipline, correction, few or many lashes, being cut asunder, being burnt in the fire, being cast into outer darkness.

Sorry, but once we have taken on our glorified body, we are already fully sanctified and not in any state of growth---or correction. We, who are Christ's will be receiving reward. Yes, there will be subtractions of rewards that were prepared for us, but there will be no condemnation.

   You are simply ignoring verses I  refer you to.

  You know it is one thing to be standing firmly for the truth of the Bible.
  It is another thing entirely to just be plain old stubborn.

   This passage does not concern a false Christian. It concerns a true brother in Christ who will be turned over to the torturers until he learned to forgive his fellow brother from his heart.

  "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." (Matt. 18:34)

 By sheer force of will power, you cannot just stick your head in the sand like an Ostrich and pretend this verse is not in the New Testament. And the Lord's word immediately afterwards makes it impossible to regard it as anything OTHER than a warning to Christian believers -

 "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

 What are you going to do ? Do you think by force of will power you can just suppress the teaching ? We have to deal with it.

  This teaching is a warning to ANY Christian who is in danger of going to the grave with a grudge or offended attitude of unforgiveness towards a Christian brother or sister.

  Now I admit that I do not know how all of this warning coordinates with His glorification of the physical body. But the hope of transfiguration does not have the effect on some of us, that we can simply IGNORE the warning tone of the teaching.

 I simply CANNOT dismiss Matthew 18:34,35 under the assumption that a resurrected and/or glorified body put me forever out of the reach of further discipline by God.

  And we should consider that the Lord is working on us from the INSIDE to the OUTSIDE. He is working in my SOUL, in my mind and emotion and will to transform me. The physical body is the last realm that His divine life will burst out into.

 Should I assume that if I have not learned to subdue my temper under the Holy Spirit that a transfigured body will magically cause my to be free from having unforgiving grudges against the brethren ?

  Paul speaks of transformation as happening in degrees, as a process and gradually:

 "And the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 And we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)


 This is a transformation of the soul from one degree of expression to another degree of expression to another degree, to another degree. It is a process of succesive changing the personality into the same image as of the Lord Jesus.

 We cannot neglect this transformation from one degree of glory to another, to another and expect that our souls will magically be changed to be like the Lord Jesus in an instant.

 I do believe that the swallowing up of our mortal in divine life at transfiguration will have a liberating effect. But I do not believe so to the extent that a Christian can afford to neglect gradual transformation by the Holy Spirit in successive degrees throughout his Christian life.

 Suppose I do not turn to the Lord with unvieled face ?
 Suppose I do not do so because I spend my life nourishing some offense in unforgiveness ?

 You say "Don't worry about that. We will all be changed into our glorified bodies. There is no more lesson."

 I don't think so LivelyStone. The New Testament would not exhort us to give heed to the Spirit's transformation work if all  problems in our soul would be magically solved at resurrection.

 "And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the wll of God is ..." (Romans 12:2a)


 Do you honestly think I can ignore this exhortation ? Suppose I have an unforgiven offense which I still hold against a brother ? Should I say:

 " Well I know I should be renewed in my mind in this matter. I know I should not be as the worldly people who have not tasted the forgiveness of Christ. I know that I should seek transformation in my attitude. I know that should not let the world squeeze me into its mold so that I behave as the grudge holding unbelievers.

 But I just don't want to take the cross to my mad temper. I enjoy holding to this offense. When my body is resurrected, THEN I won't have this unforgiving attitude anymore."

  This attitude will not be rewarded. I am going to have to deal with that way of thinking either now or after the Lord Jesus comes back.

  He wants our cooperation. It is God who works in us both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.  


Quote from: LivelyStone

Quote
I warn every Christian reading this post, including myself. Jesus has a large scope of possible things He can do to adjust His children after His second coming and before the age of eternity.


That's just silly, and not based on anything Biblical. We will already be fully sanctified, wearing our immortality, having already received our reward, and REIGNING and RULING with Him!!!

Our focus will be on Him and His reign over the nations, and their restoration, and that the nations love and obey Him


     Reform theology has to be taken in perspective. It is good to realize that in Christ we are in a sanctified position and standing before God. We are after all SAINTS. Positionally we are sanctified all and are called SAINTS.

 But that is not the only side of the New Testament truth. We are also in the life long process of dispositional sanctfication. This is an ongoing growth.  Paul speaks of both positional sanctification and dispositional sanctification. You only know positional sanctification. But here Paul speaks of the process of ongoing dispositional sanctification as well:

 "I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to uncleaness and lawlessness unto lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification." (Romans 6:19)


 The phrase "UNTO SANCTIFICATION"  indicates with a view to sanctification. It means TOWARDS the result of sanctification. This proves that there is a  movement in the Christian life of the obedient which is towards the result of santification. It is a process moving towards a goal. That goal is sanctification.

 Since it is a movement "UNTO SANTIFICATION" that proves that the Christian should be in the ongoing PROCESS of it. In that regard sanctification is encreasing and we cannot say that we have arrived. We can say that as long as we live and present our members as slaves of righteousness we are moving more and more in a growth   "UNTO sanctification" .

  He is able to present us faultless and without blemish before Him in love. And He ever lives to intercede for us and to save us to the uttermost. But God operates and the Christian CO-operates.

  The jist of your shallower and superfiscial prejudicial teaching is that there is no need for cooperation. And your false teaching asserts that there will be no consequence in the millennium for lack of cooperation, other than to lose a possible reward.

 The BIBLE shows lose of reward, but does not stop there. The BIBLE also shows punishment, discipline, correction, lashes - either many or few. The BIBLE shows the servant cast into the outer darkness.

  While you choose to stubbornly ignore all these passages, some of us choose to include them with all the other passages for a well rounded and more thorough presentation of biblical truth.

« Last Edit: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 17:31:13 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 18:17:24 »
Quote from: LivelyStone


    Don't wander all over the map.

We are talking about the final judgment of God.


  It is not a matter of wandering all over the map. It is a matter if acknowledging that the New Testament teaches more than just one judgment.

  The judgment at the great white throne after the millennium is not the same as the judgment of believers at the judgment seat of Christ before the start of the millennium.

That's correct. So, why do you claim that believers, already fully sanctified and enjoying their reward, seated in authority over the earth with Jesus, need further maturity in Him?

Philippians 1:6
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Who needs further completion among those of Christ after His coming?

Quote
You are simply ignoring verses I  refer you to.

  You know it is one thing to be standing firmly for the truth of the Bible.
  It is another thing entirely to just be plain old stubborn.

   This passage does not concern a false Christian. It concerns a true brother in Christ who will be turned over to the torturers until he learned to forgive his fellow brother from his heart.

You misinterpret these verses.

Quote
By sheer force of will power, you cannot just stick your head in the sand like an Ostrich and pretend this verse is not in the New Testament. And the Lord's word immediately afterwards makes it impossible to regard it as anything OTHER than a warning to Christian believers -

 "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

 What are you going to do ? Do you think by force of will power you can just suppress the teaching ? We have to deal with it.

  This teaching is a warning to ANY Christian who is in danger of going to the grave with a grudge or offended attitude of unforgiveness towards a Christian brother or sister.

  Now I admit that I do not know how all of this warning coordinates with His glorification of the physical body. But the hope of transfiguration does not have the effect on some of us, that we can simply IGNORE the warning tone of the teaching.

 I simply CANNOT dismiss Matthew 18:34,35 under the assumption that a resurrected and/or glorified body put me forever out of the reach of further discipline by God.

There is no mention of eternal damnation of the redeemed.

Quote from: 'Lively Stone'
That's just silly, and not based on anything Biblical. We will already be fully sanctified, wearing our immortality, having already received our reward, and REIGNING and RULING with Him!!!

Our focus will be on Him and His reign over the nations, and their restoration, and that the nations love and obey Him[/size]

Quote
Reform theology has to be taken in perspective. It is good to realize that in Christ we are in a sanctified position and standing before God. We are after all SAINTS. Positionally we are sanctified all and are called SAINTS.

 But that is not the only side of the New Testament truth. We are also in the life long process of dispositional sanctfication. This is an ongoing growth.  Paul speaks of both positional sanctification and dispositional sanctification. You only know positional sanctification. But here Paul speaks of the process of ongoing dispositional sanctification as well:

 "I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to uncleaness and lawlessness unto lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification." (Romans 6:19)


 The phrase "UNTO SANCTIFICATION"  indicates with a view to sanctification. It means TOWARDS the result of sanctification. This proves that there is a  movement in the Christian life of the obedient which is towards the result of santification. It is a process moving towards a goal. That goal is sanctification.

 Since it is a movement "UNTO SANTIFICATION" that proves that the Christian should be in the ongoing PROCESS of it. In that regard sanctification is encreasing and we cannot say that we have arrived. We can say that as long as we live and present our members as slaves of righteousness we are moving more and more in a growth   "UNTO sanctification" .

  He is able to present us faultless and without blemish before Him in love. And He ever lives to intercede for us and to save us to the uttermost. But God operates and the Christian CO-operates.

  The jist of your shallower and superfiscial prejudicial teaching is that there is no need for cooperation. And your false teaching asserts that there will be no consequence in the millennium for lack of cooperation, other than to lose a possible reward.

 The BIBLE shows lose of reward, but does not stop there. The BIBLE also shows punishment, discipline, correction, lashes - either many or few. The BIBLE shows the servant cast into the outer darkness.

  While you choose to stubbornly ignore all these passages, some of us choose to include them with all the other passages for a well rounded and more thorough presentation of biblical truth.



Our sanctification is COMPLETE upon death, or resurrection, whichever comes first.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 02:11:52 »
 To my pointing out that there is a difference between the great white throne judgment after the millennium and the judgment seat of Christ before the millennium, LivelyStone replies:

 
Quote from: LivelyStone


That's correct. So, why do you claim that believers, already fully sanctified and enjoying their reward, seated in authority over the earth with Jesus, need further maturity in Him?


     Your question doesn't make good sense. You yourself have admitted that some believers before the judgment seat of Christ will lose a reward.

     "The work of each will become manifest, for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

 If anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a   reward,

   If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15)


    If we know that some Christians will receive a reward and some Christians will in contrast "suffer loss" yet still be "saved" then we know that ALL believers will NOT be enjoying their reward. The judgment seat of Christ will not result in ALL Christians enjoying a reward.

   That is not my concept. That is the teaching of First Corinthians 3:13-15.

   Such Christians:

    1.) Are NOT fully sanctified.
    2.) Are NOT enjoying their reward (even though they are still saved)
    3.) Are NOT seated in authority over the earth with Jesus
    4.) Therefore DO need further maturity in Him.

    That is why Paul gives a warning about the possibility of the Christian to "SUFFER LOSS" as a result of that examination. If all Christians were enjoying their reward then the Apostle Paul would not say that some will "suffer loss" as opposed to receiving a reward:

   "HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD" (v.14) verses "HE WILL SUFFER LOSS, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED..." (v.15)

    Now Paul is not speaking of something which occurs in eternity after the millennial kingdom. He is talking about a reward enjoyed or a loss encured during the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years. He has to be because:

  1.) The judgment seat of Christ follows the resurrection and rapture of the saints in Christ's second coming.
  2.) The judgment seat of Christ closely preceeds the millennial kingdom
  3.) We know that eventually in eternity ALL saints are presented without spot or blemish before God, with no cause for blame or rebuke:

  "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship thrugh Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5a)

   The Christian's destiny is to be presented in perfection as a matured son of God. God still has at least 1,000 years from the time of the judgment seat of Christ to the age of the eternal new heaven and new earth with the completed New Jerusalem.

   We are assured that we all will arrive. We are not assured that we all will arrive when we are suppose to. There is no garuantee that during that 1,000 years there is no need for some tardy arrivers to have further perfecting done upon them.

 
 
Quote from: LivelyStone

 Philippians 1:6
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Who needs further completion among those of Christ after His coming?

 There is no reason why we should discard such a wonderful promise. God who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus:

 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6)

    As a good and thorough student of the Bible, we not only learn what the Scripture says, but we must learn what ALSO the Scripture says.

   And considering what ELSE the Bible says one has to ask:

  1.) Could Paul mean that no believer will suffer loss as the result of the judgment seat of Christ ? If God has begun a good work in the believers and will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus, does that mean that the work of all believers will cause them to receive a reward ? If that is the case then WHY did Scripture say that some believers may "suffer loss" rather than be rewarded ?

  2.) When Paul says "until the day of Christ Jesus" is he excluding the day in which God says after the millennium "Behold I make all things new ... I will be God to him and he will be a son to Me." (See Revelation 21:5,6)

      This creating all things new and promise of sonship is AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. So HOW LONG does God have time to operate this good work in us which He has begun ?

       Does He only have up until the time of the judgment seat of Christ ? If so then why do some of the parables of Christ indicate some amount of displeasure with His servants? If God has begun a good work and completed it on the day of our standing before the judgment seat of Christ, then WHY does the Lord take one servant and turn him over to be punished until he learned a lesson to forgive his brother from his heart ?

      "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:35)    

    What happened to this Christian BROTHER ? Why was he turned over to the torturers until a certain time ?  God had begun a good work in him. Did He not ?  Why was the work of a forgiving heart not perfected in this Christian BEFORE the Lord became angry with him and turned him over to some temporary discipline ?

    So you see, we have to learn what the Scriptures says and what the Scriptures AGAIN say. The Apostle Paul himself who told us that God has begun a good work in us and is able to complete it voiced his own concern that he could be "disapproved".

  "I therefore run in this way, not as though without a clear aim; I box in the way; not as though beating the air; But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved." (1 Cor. 9:26,27)

   Did Paul consider it impossible for him to be disapproved (not for eternal life), but for quality service unto the Lord ?

   Philippians 1:6 is a wonderful verse. I love it. I cling to it. But it is not an assurance that I do not need to cooperate with God's working in me. And it is not saying that I could not also "suffer loss" instead of enjoy a reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

Quote from: LivelyStone


 Feedmysheep:

   This passage does not concern a false Christian. It concerns a true brother in Christ who will be turned over to the torturers until he learned to forgive his fellow brother from his heart.

 LivelyStone:

You misinterpret these verses.

 You are not demonstrating at all where the misinterpretation is being made.
 You are just asserting that I am misinterpreting it.

  If we are talking, as I believe, about Matthew 18:21-35 then look what you ar doing. You say this is not an exhortation to Christian brothers.

 "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

 The impact of your denial that the teaching concerns a Christian, is to change the Lord's meaning to "So ... My heavenly Father will [NOT] do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts."

 You nullify the Lord's warning. You deny the Lord's teaching that the Father will do to us Christians as the parable teaches will happen to the unforgiving servant.

 The Lord teaches us a warning of His dealing with an unforgiving Chritian brother. And you come along and deny His warning saying that it is not concerning a Christian. But Peter has given rise to the whole teaching by asking the Lord HOW MANY TIMES should he forgive his brother who sins against him:

 "Then Peter came and said to Him, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him. Up to seven times ?

  Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy times seven. For this reason the kingdom of the heavens has become like a king who decided to settle accounts with his slaves .... etc" (Matt, 18:21-23 and 24 - 35)


 Can't you see that Jesus is teaching His disciples about the boundlessness of their capacity to forgive ? That is why He gives the teaching AND the warning. Something unpleasant and disciplinary can happen in the kingdom of the heavens to the unforgiving servant.

  Your teaching is nullifying the impact of the Lord's warning.

Quote from: LivelyStone

[
There is no mention of eternal damnation of the redeemed.

 I never said there was such a mention. We are not talking about eternal damnation of the redeemed. We are talking about dispensational and temporary punishment of some redeemed during the millennial kingdom.

  And you are not able to demonstrate that the servants dealt with in a disciplinary way in a few parable of Christ, are speaking of ones NOT redeemed. All evidence points to the fact that these servants of the Lord ARE redeemed.

  The kingdom teaching is of responsibility. This is not the milk of the word of God. This is the meat for the more mature. And you have not shown that a servant cast by the Lord into the outer darkness is a unbeliever or false Christian.

  To defeat the interpretation I have presented, that is what you have to do. But I suggest that you change your concept and accept that the Lord's believer may suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ. And that suffering of loss, accoding to His teachings in the Gospels, could take on a number of manifestations.

 One of which manifestations of suffering loss would be to be cast temporarily into "the outer darkness" where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 What ? Did you not hear what the Lord said in THIS instance:

 "The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, And will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrits. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 24:51)

 I REPEAT to you. The scope of the possibilities, both positively as well as negatively, as to how the Lord would recompense His servants, is wide. I am presenting to you a couple of instances of severity. I do not mean that ALL discipines from the Lord at His judgment seat will be this severe.

 What does it mean to you for the Lord to cut a servant asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrits ?

 Are you sure that such a one could not possibly be one of those Christians Paul said would be saved, yet so as through fire ?

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

Our sanctification is COMPLETE upon death, or resurrection, whichever comes first.


  In the Bible and in the history of God's dealing with His people, there is often a differenfe in what SHOULD be and what actually HAPPENS to be in some instances.

  Paul said he ran the Chritians race. Paul said that he fought the good fight. Paul said that there was laid up for him a crown of righteousness which the Righteous Judge would award him.

 That is a crown of righhteousness. That is not a crown of grace but of righteousness.

 Of course the Lord is full of grace and has the throne of grace. But in this passage it is the Lord as the righteous Judge not the merciful Savior, who will award Paul.

 Suppose he decided to NOT rum the Chritian race ? Do all believers run the Christian race? Smetimes we meet Christians who do not want to treat the Christian life as  a race to be run. Some do not want to treat the Christian life as a good fight to be fought.

  Paul is a good model and representative of what the Christian's attitude should be.

  "I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.

 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteusness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only to me but also all those who have loved His appearing." ( 2 Timothy 4:7,8)


 1.)  The reward here is not a gift but RECOMPENSE. That is a repayment for work.

 2.)   If it is RECOMPENSE then the passage is not about eternal redemption which is NOT recompense but GIFT.

 3.) It is not a crown of redemption or a crown of mercy or a crown of grace. He awaits a crown of righteousness for righteous Christian living.

 4.) It is not a crown of Justification by Faith. It is a crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS for the way Paul lived and loved the coming of the Lord Jesus.

 5.) The awarder of this recompense is not the merciful Savior but the righteous Judge.

 Of course Christ is the merciful Savior. But in THIS passage the emphasis is on His recompense for Paul's righteous living since he received mercy to be saved.

 6.) The recompense is not for any elite group. It is also assured to all who have loved the Lord's appearing. That certainly includes any of us who likewise walk so as to love the Lord's appearing.

 7.) Suppose we do NOT love the Lord's appearing because we are preoccupied with loving the world or our sins instead? Shouldn't we repent of such living and turn to run the race and fight the good fight with Paul ?  Certainly we should.

  8.)   We are foolish to think that if we love something above the Lord Jesus that we will love His appearing.

 What ? You know Christians who perhaps love their bed of adultery or fornication more than the Lord's appearing ? CAn we be that naive to believe no such cases of backsliding exist such as this ?

  So we have to watch and repent and run the race - get back into the Spirit filled good fight being washed in the blood of Jesus.

 Then we may say that we eagerly love His appearing and await also the crown of righteousness from the righteous Judge at the judgment seat of Christ.

  
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 07:44:53 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 11:43:13 »
Feedmysheep~

I just cannot read your long post when from the very start you jump off in error. No believer, redeemed and sanctified and rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ will come away with anything lacking! They will receive all that they have deserved, which in light of their lives lived before Him in this realm will be of a most excellent and majestic quality---and most just! ---even after their forfeitures for selfishness, disobedience and unfulfillment of God's will in them.

In the Kingdom Age of Jesus Christ, we will be the ruling class, fully equipped and outfitted with our amazing gifts and abilities to rule and reign and lead the world in the things of God and righteousness and justice! We will have nothing lacking in us, having come into the Kingdom fully matured and ready to serve the King of all kings in the way He deserves! We will be His emissaries in the world---you know---no spot or wrinkle?

Ephesians 5:25b-27
He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.

If you cannot see that, then anything else you say beyond this point is unacceptable.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 11:57:35 by Lively Stone »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 00:06:13 »
  

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

Feedmysheep~

I just cannot read your long post when from the very start you jump off in error. No believer, redeemed and sanctified and rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ will come away with anything lacking!

  
   The ones who come away, not rewarded but having suffered loss, is another matter.

   That is what you are blind to see. What you are saying is "ALL believers will be rewarded."  You are too blind to deal with the FACT that Scripture also deals with believers for whom reward in the 1,000 years is NOT be the case.

    
Quote from: LivelyStone

 They will receive all that they have deserved, which in light of their lives lived before Him in this realm will be of a most excellent and majestic quality---and most just! ---even after their forfeitures for selfishness, disobedience and unfulfillment of God's will in them.
    

  Who is "They" in this sentence ?  First Corinthians 3:14,15 deals with TWO outcomes -

   1.) "he will receive a reward" (v.14)

   2.) "he will suffer loss" (v.15)

   Your "They" consists ONLY of Case #1.
   To "suffer loss" is not "excellent and majestic quality". It is discipline.

    It is of course positive that they are saved, yet as through fire. But to "suffer loss" is not a reward.

     You seem particularly blind to comprehend this.

     A SAVED person, one who is redeemed eternally, evidently can also (in relation to the millennial kingdon) receive for the WRONG that he has done. For Paul's warning to Christian slaves and slave masters , for example, is PRECISELY that !

     "Whatever you do, [work] from from the soul as to the Lord and not to men, Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as recompense. You serve the Lord Christ.

   "For he (Christian slave OR Christian slave owner) who does unrighteously WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE UNRIGHTEOUSLY DID and there is no respect of persons." (Colossians 3:25)


  To suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ might be also to receive what a believer unrighteously did. That is the warning to CHRISTIANS in Colossians chapter 3.

    
Quote from: LivelyStone

In the Kingdom Age of Jesus Christ, we will be the ruling class, fully equipped and outfitted with our amazing gifts and abilities to rule and reign and lead the world in the things of God and righteousness and justice!

 In the millennial kingdom what you have discribed is THE REWARD.
 The teaching of Paul in First Corinthians 3:14,15 is that some will receive a reward and some will suffer loss, yet they will be saved yet, so as through fire.

  Your mistake is in teaching that those who suffer loss are also rewarded.
  But the word of God ther puts "receive a reward" and "suffer loss" in OPPOSITION to each other.

  And it is obvious that in Luke 19:

  Servant #1 is assigned over ten cities (19:16,17)
  Servant #2 is assigned over five cities (vs. 18,19)
  Servant #3 is assigned over no cities (vs.20-24)


  Furthermore this third servant is distinct from the enemies of the master who he commands to be slain in verse 27:

  "However, these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me."

  Therefore the punished servant is a saved believer and not a slain enemy who did not want Christ to reign over them.

  
Quote from: LivelyStone

We will have nothing lacking in us, having come into the Kingdom fully matured and ready to serve the King of all kings in the way He deserves! We will be His emissaries in the world---you know---no spot or wrinkle?

   I believe in hope and in encouragement in the Lord.
   But if the price of your teaching is to not heed that warning that I could conceivably suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ, then I have to reject it.

 In that case you are not teaching what the Bible teaches. For you are saying that no Christian need be concerned about suffering loss at Christ's judgment seat to assign our position in the millennial kingdom.

  Though you may not read through my careful explanation, I am sure some readers will read all the way through and see that the more sound interpretation is with me.

  And "without spot or wrinkle" is a condition to be questioned with one who does not receive a kingdom reward but rather suffers loss.

  You shield your ignorance and blindness by assuring me that you will not read the reasons given to support the truth. This is the defense of laziness.

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

Ephesians 5:25b-27
He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.



  Nothing I wrote contradicts Ephesians 5:25.

  Suffering loss at the judgment seat of Christ at the beginning of the millennium DOES NOT make Ephesians 5:25 not ultimately TRUE.

  The servant cast into outer darkness during the millennial kingdom DOES NOT make Ephesians 5:25 not ultimately TRUE.

 The servant turned over to the torturers to learn to forgive his Christian brothers from his heart DOES NOT make Ephesians 5:25 not ultimately TRUE.

 A bridal army with pure linen bright and clean accompanies Christ to Armageddon.
 That is a remnant of overcomers - a minority. I can prove it.

 And even that the bridal army in Revelation 19 is only a remnant, a portion of overcoming saints rewarded to accompany Christ DOES NOT make Ephesians 5:25 not eventually TRUE in eternity.

Quote from: LivelyStone

If you cannot see that, then anything else you say beyond this point is unacceptable.

  Your defense is laziness so that you will not read through carefully reasoned responses which address your problems.

 I cannot help you if you are too lazy to read through a post which should not be written in 30 words or less.  These matters require careful examination.

 I do not count your refusal to read through to the bottom of my responses as a successful rebuttal or refutation.

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 08:22:49 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 00:48:03 »

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

    Ephesians 5:25b-27
He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.

 The bride in Revelation 19 is a remnant of those overcomers rewarded before the millennium.

 The bride seen coming down from heaven in Revelation 21 and 22 is not a remnant. And it is AFTER the millennial kingdom.

 Therefore Ephesians 5:25-27 in no way contradicts the reality of reward and punishment of Christians during the millennial kingdom.

 In Revelation 21 and 22 there is no further discipline of Christians.

 After the millennium and when the new heaven and new earth are brought in by God, ALL the believers by that time have been built up and perfected.

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 06:30:14 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 06:35:40 »



 I have decided to tackle this problem in light of Ephesians 5:25-27. LivelyStone's mentioning of this passage is very helpful to the discussion. And I feel of the Lord that I should not ignore Ephesians 5:25-27.

 Here is what I propose to do. I will ask readers about Ephesians 5:25-27 as to how they think it relates to rewards awarded at the judgment seat of Christ. You readers yourselves will decide.

 This is only for readers who can take the time to read paragraphs. I cannot chat these matters out. It requires some space.

 Where is larry2 ?  You readers will be the judge to where you think the truth lies. Stay tuned.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 07:34:10 »


In the Kingdom Age of Jesus Christ, we will be the ruling class, fully equipped and outfitted with our amazing gifts and abilities to rule and reign and lead the world in the things of God and righteousness and justice! We will have nothing lacking in us, having come into the Kingdom fully matured and ready to serve the King of all kings in the way He deserves! We will be His emissaries in the world---you know---no spot or wrinkle?

Ephesians 5:25b-27
He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.

If you cannot see that, then anything else you say beyond this point is unacceptable.



   LivelyStone and anyone is asked to answer these questions:


    1.)  Paul speaks of the reward of a crown of incorruptible crown. Conditions of proper "running" have to be met to obtain this incorruptible crown:

     "Do you not know that those who run on a racecourse all run, but one receives the prize ? Run in this way, that you may lay hold. Everyone who contends exercises self-control in all things; they then, that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we, an incorruptible.

I therefore run in t his way, not as though without a clear aim; I box in this way, not as though beating the air;  But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved."



     If a Christians arrives at the judgment seat of Christ and has not run the Christian race lawfully, has not learned to excercise self control in all things, has been enslaved to his body rather than buffeting his body, has not "boxed" well but has been beating the air, and has not laid hold of overcoming -

   is he MORE likely to be a part of the " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish"  or is he in need of further maturity ?

 2.)  If the believer has fulfilled the condition of running the race as Paul did and recommends, is he MORE a likely a participant in the " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish"  OR less likely and in need of further perfection ?


 3.)  Paul also speaks of a crown of rejoicing at the coming of the Lord Jesus:

      "What is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even you, before our Lord Jesus at His coming ?" (1 Thess 2:19)

       If the apostle has neglected those under his responsibility such that the thought of them is his groaning rather than his rejoicing, that is no joy or crown.

      Is such a negligent apostle, disallowing the saints exhortation, instruction, or perfecting,  likely to be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ ?

       Would a negligent coworker having lost the crown of rejoicing, MORE likely to be a participant in " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish" or in need of further perfecting ?

 4.)  Peter speaks of the reward of a crown of glory:

      "The elders therefore among you I exhort .... Tend the flock of God ... and when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, you shall receive the crown of glory" ( 1 Pet. 5:1-4)

  If an elder has discarded Peter's exhortation and decided not to shepherd the Lord's flock so that he is not prepared for such a crown of glory -

  Is such a slothful elder more likely to be a participant in " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish"  OR does he need further perfecting ?

 5.) James speaks of the reward of a crown of life through meeting the condition of endurance in Christ:

 "Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he has been approved, he shall receive the corwn of life" (James 1:12)

  Suppose a Christian never learns to endure in Christ through temptation at all. Suppose such a backslidden saint appears before the judgment seat of Christ not "approved" in this regard.

  Is such a immature brother or sister more likely to be a participant in " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish" or does that one need further perfecting and further maturity ?

 
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 08:17:10 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 07:46:48 »
6.) Lastly, look at what Ephesians 5:25-27 says about the Lord's work to PREPARE such a Bride:

    " ... Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might SANCTIFY [her], CLEANSING HER BY THE WASHING OF THE WATER IN THE WORD.

 That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish."



   Two matters are involved here in Christ's preparation of the church.

 1.) He gave up His life for her in redemption. He DIED to wash her of sins in His precious redeeming blood.  

"gave Himself up for her"

 2.) He WASHES her, SANCTIFYING her with THE WATER IN THE WORD. That is the rhema of the instanct word of God. That is the Spirit anointed instant speaking of God washing her of oldness and old things of the old man.

 Can you see here saints that there is washing in the blood of redemption AND a washing in the constant ministry of the WATER OF THE WORD [rhema] of God ?

  Now suppopse a saint has been covered by the blood but has neglected the instnat RHEMA of the washing of the living word ? Suppose such a one rarely opens the Bible and rarely prays over the word of God? Suppose they have never allowed the word of God to speak to their behavior  - regulating them and adjusting them ?

 The Apostle Paul says that Christ prepares His Wife the church by the WASHING OF THE WATER IN THE WORD.

  If a Christian comes before the judgment seat of Christ with a history of neglecting such WASHING OF THE WATER IN THE WORD such that he is full of blemish, wrinkles and spots, EVEN THOUGH HE IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD ... is he to expect a reward ? Is he completely clear of not suffering loss.

 Is he more a likely participant in " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish" OR is he still in need of some perfecting ?


  In all these cases above, I say that you have a saint that is practically SHORT of the experience of a " glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish" by the time of the millennial kingdom.

  WHEN is such a one to be perfected ?
  WHEN will such a one grow in those areas in which he was retarded ?
  WHEN will such a one be developed where he was under developed ?
  WHEN will such a loser of the reward be made worthy to qualify ?
  WHEN will such a defeated one become an overcoming one ?

 The answer MUST be sometime during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom .
  The perfecting must be BEFORE the New Jerusalem descends as a full bride from heaven adorned for her Husband in Revelation 21 & 22.

   The  glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish MUST require OVERCOMING.  

  She cannot be built with DEFEATED ones who have only suffered loss at Christ's judgment seat. The defeated must have time to learn to overcome.

 The flavor of the lessons to overcome will be different during the 1,000 years.
 But the outcome must be the same as what they SHOULD have secured in the age of grace.

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:00:48 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #22 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:13:24 »
 

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

Feedmysheep~

I just cannot read your long post when from the very start you jump off in error. No believer, redeemed and sanctified and rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ will come away with anything lacking!

  
   The ones who come away, not rewarded but having suffered loss, is another matter.

   That is what you are blind to see. What you are saying is "ALL believers will be rewarded."  You are too blind to deal with the FACT that Scripture also deals with believers for whom reward in the 1,000 years is NOT be the case.

You  are blinded by the desire to see brothers and sisters miss out on their eternal reward. We will all come away from the Judgment Seat of Christ with our rewards, and with our own losses. EVERYONE! But we will rule and reign with Christ in His Millennial Kingdom.

    
Quote from: LivelyStone

 They will receive all that they have deserved, which in light of their lives lived before Him in this realm will be of a most excellent and majestic quality---and most just! ---even after their forfeitures for selfishness, disobedience and unfulfillment of God's will in them.
    


  Who is "They" in this sentence ?  First Corinthians 3:14,15 deals with TWO outcomes -

   1.) "he will receive a reward" (v.14)

   2.) "he will suffer loss" (v.15)

   Your "They" consists ONLY of Case #1.
   To "suffer loss" is not "excellent and majestic quality". It is discipline.

    It is of course positive that they are saved, yet as through fire. But to "suffer loss" is not a reward.

     You seem particularly blind to comprehend this.

You ignore the fact that that passage refers to CHRISTIANS---BUILDERS---that will receive their due rewards and losses, but none--NONE will not receive the Kingdom.

You need to get out of here with your false Gospel.


    

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #23 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 15:22:04 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


  You  are blinded by the desire to see brothers and sisters miss out on their eternal reward. We will all come away from the Judgment Seat of Christ with our rewards, and with our own losses. EVERYONE! But we will rule and reign with Christ in His Millennial Kingdom.



     Quite the contrary sister.

     The reason for teaching of dispensational punishment as well as reward is to AWAKEN my brothers and sisters from the stupor of superfiscial teaching. The soberness of the realization of the warnings, are there in the New Testament to spur us with the incentive to draw closer to the Lord, the one and only Overcomer.

      You seriously misjudge my heart. And furthermore, I have been QUOTING what is there in the NEW TESTAMENT.  You simply are not reading carefully how those exhortations are worded.

    The entire 1,000 year millennial kingdom with its rewards and punishments serves as an INCENTIVE for Christians to cooperate with God's economy in the age of grace.

      That period is not only for the fulfillment of promises to Israel. It is also an intervening age before eternity as an incentive to the Christian church.


Quote from: LivelyStone

You ignore the fact that that passage refers to CHRISTIANS---BUILDERS---that will receive their due rewards and losses, but none--NONE will not receive the Kingdom.

You need to get out of here with your false Gospel.

    For certain I have emphasized that 1 Cor. 3 is about CHRISTIANS. Have I not?
    
    To read there "suffer loss" is too general to know what the Lord has in mind.
    But by comparing other passages of parables and teachings we have to conclude that the more negative side of "suffer loss" at that time could be to be cast out of the reward of the kingdom.

   And the following passages extend the warning to indicate that God could DESTROY the one who mars, defiles, damages the temple of God, the builded church, by building with inferior substances:

 LOOK AT THE ENTIRE PASSAGE AND CONSIDER SOBERLY:

 "If anyone's work is consumed, he wwill suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (v.15)

 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you? (v.16)

If ANYONE DESTROYS THE TEMPLE OF GOD, GOD WILL DESTROY HIM; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (v.17)


 A Christians attempting to build up the Lord's church, the temple of God, who mars it with wood, hay, stubble and things of the fallen man INSTEAD of the gold of God's nature, the silver of Christ's redemption, and the precious stones of the Holy Spirits transformation work, is in danger of being destroyed by God as a discipline.

One who has the Holy Spirit can suffer loss. And that suffering of loss could conceivably be God destroying him for his sloppy, unholy destroying of the temple of God.

 Did you not read in the gospels that if we sought to save our soul life we would lose it ?
 If we lost our soul life for the Lord's sake we would save it.

 To be destroyed in this context should be to suffer the loss of the natural soul's pleasure. To lose one's soulish delight during the millennial kingdom.
One did not deny the self to enjoy Christ enough in the age of grace.
There is the possibility such a negligent one would suffer a destruction of his soul's pleasure at the judgment seat of Christ.  
    

    But the temple of God is a living corporate Body which must be completed.
    

  1.) The BUILDING is a living entity. It is not physical structure. It is a "building" of the church as the Lord's Body.  

   Do you agree with this ??

  2.)  The BUILDING is something for ETERNITY. It cannot be left HALF built, PARTIALLY built, with DEFECTS, with WEAK parts.

    Do you agree with this ??

 3.) If a Christian's portion of that building is not suitable because he has poorly built himself into that living entity, that cannot be OVERLOOKED by God. That weak part of the BUILDING has to be built PROPERLY at some time.

   Is this not logical ?

 4.) THEREFORE, a brother or sister who is POORLY built in HAS to be at SOME TIME, properly built in. For the building is a living matter and eternal.

  5.) So if by the time of the millennial kingdom the building has a weak spot eventually that weak spot has to be properly adjusted.

 And that has to mean that the Christian whose building on the foundation was not approved, has to be remedied before eternity future can commence.

  Is this not most logical LivelyStone ?

  When will the poorer building substances of wood, hay, and stubble be replaced with the proper gold, silver, and precious stones  (See verse 12) ? If the building believer did not develop them by the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ, then they must be developed in a remedial situation during the millennial kingdom.

   Therefore any punishment of the servant of Jesus Christ, a saved believer, after His second coming, has to be corrective rather than retribution. And it has to be temporary.

  
  

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 15:32:36 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #24 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 15:26:12 »
There are no rewards and punishments in the Millennial reign for those of us who are believers and will have already received our incorruptible bodies. It is not an extension of the Bema Seat!

In fact, we will be meting out reward and punishment to the nations in our governing.

Anyone who teaches that we will receive rewards and losses during the time of our reigning with Christ is living in a dreamworld of their own choosing. Stop teaching what the word of God doesn't say.

Quote from: 'Feedmysheep'
When will the poorer building substances of wood, hay, and stubble be replaced with the proper gold, silver, and precious stones ? If the building believer did not develop them by the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ, then they must be developed in a remedial situation during the millennial kingdom.

The analogy to wood, hay and stubble is about our works. If we have the wrong motive, then we are building with these inferior materials and they will be BURNED UP IN THE FIRE AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

What remains is what we receive our rewards on.

There will be no replacement materials. That is a fabrication you have made and now you have erected your own fantasy eschatology on it.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 15:34:03 by Lively Stone »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #25 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 15:54:12 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


  There are no rewards and punishments in the Millennial reign for those of us who are believers and will have already received our incorruptible bodies.

  Who do you think First Corinthians 3:10-17 is talking about ?
 
Quote from: LivelyStone

It is not an extension of the Bema Seat!

 You've lost me. I don't even understand what you are saying.
 I am not certain that you yourself understand what you are saying.

  Are you saying First Corinthians 3:10-17 is not about the Bema Seat of Christ ?
 If that is what you are saying, you would be 100% wrong.

Quote from: LivelyStone

In fact, we will be meting out reward and punishment to the nations in our governing.

First Corinthians 3:10-17 is not about that. It is about Christ meting out reward or loss or even possibly DESTRUCTION as a result of the BEMA seat of Christ.


Quote from: LivelyStone

Anyone who teaches that we will receive rewards and losses during the time of our reigning with Christ is living in a dreamworld of their own choosing. Stop teaching what the word of God doesn't say..

 You are like one of the false prophets in the time of Ezekiel.
 You are telling the Lord's people only the pleasant things and neglecting the sober warnings.

  We should have learned something from the Jews and the Lord's first coming. God can surprise us even though He still keeps His word.

 I do not know how the transfigured body will play out in all of these matterss. But there is one thing I know, which you will not rob me of.

 The millennial kingdom is a RECOMPENSE and not a GIFT. And the lattitude of possible recompenses adminstered by the King of the kingdom, is quite broad. He has a large scope of possible ways to deal with His children.

 You will not rob me of this biblical truth. You will not befuddle me with your superficial reading of the NT.

 And I am confident that the Holy Spirit will not allow you to rob at least some readers of these biblical truths.

  Why did PAUL warn the Corinthian believers that God can destroy those who destroy the holy temple of God ?

  They are eternally redeemed. To what purpose would Paul tell those eternally saved:

 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you ?  IF ANYONE destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:16,17)

  In the context of BUILDING the temple of God, the church, why would Paul warn Christians that God would destroy those who damage the temple of God whch holy temple they are ?

  
  
  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 16:03:49 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 16:03:10 »
1 Corinthians 3:10-17
10 Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

 16 Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 17 God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.




The builders in this passage are Christians, who are building on a foundation of faith into the Lord's Kingdom.

This scenario if the Bema Seat Judgment of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing there that tells us there is any remedial building to be done after our judgment and reward.

If we are not heeding the 'sober warnings' and exhortations of the Scriptures, then we will most likely be building with more wood, hay and stubble than precious stones, and metals.

The Millennial Kingdom is our reward as well as the Kingdom of God that comes later, after the GWT Judgment of God.

We enter the Millennium AFTER our Judgment, coming with Christ in the clouds, returning in GLORY to avenge the wicked who seek to kill Hm at His coming, and we will assist Him in restoring order and peace among the surviving nations for 1000 years.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 21:30:32 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


  The builders in this passage are Christians, who are building on a foundation of faith into the Lord's Kingdom.

 

   Not only are the BUILDERS Christians but the BUILDING that they are working on is ALSO Christians:

  " ... you are God's cultivated land, God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9)

  They are building themselves into the living temple of God through the GROWTH of divine life within them.

   Since they are to be a part of this living building of God forever, they cannot neglect indefinitely their proper place in it.  Their proper building in this living temple cannot be postponed forever. So we believers all must eventually be built into the building upon the foundation properly before the age of the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21 & 22).

 Furthermore, Paul say " ... you are God's cultivated land [or FARM], God's building".

 This sentence links the GROWTH of Christ's life within them to the BUILDING of the building. As they GROW in the divine life they are being properly builded into the church, the temple of God.

 So the GROWTH neglected causes a loss of reward to those building with the old nature (wood, hay, stubble).  The precious building materials of the Trinity must be developed in them eventually. It cannot be discarded or postponed forever.

 The gold of the Father's nature, the silver of the Son's redemptive work, and the precious stones of the Holy Spirit's transformation work HAVE to be manifested in them eventually. Better late than never. Therefore their growth has to be like summer school - a late graduation.

 " ... you are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building "

  " In whom [Christ] all the building, being fitted together is GROWING into a holy tmple in the Lord. In whom you also are being BUILT together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21,22).

 The growth of divine life within the believers is what grows the builded dwelling place of God and builds the Christians into it. If we grow in a timely manner there is a reward of the kingdom. If growth has been neglected there is the loss of reward. But growth MUST take place just the same for God's PURPOSE  is the dwelling place of God, the holy temple.
 

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

  There is nothing there that tells us there is any remedial building to be done after our judgment and reward.

   This assumes then that the immature must remain so forever.
   This assumes that the soul is changed merely by the changing of the body.
  
   Transformation of the SOUL is an intensly inward work. And if we arrive at the judgment seat of Christ with a soul still plagued by living in the old fallen nature, the healing must take place at some time.

   We may not know what style or flavor this work will be in during the millennial kingdom time, we know that maturity cannot be postponed indefintely. We are God's farm for growing Christ in our soul. And before eternity future that growth must take place for God's purpose.

 The ultimate purpose is not our rewards but God's living dwelling place, God's temple where God indwells man's being.
 
  
Quote from: LivelyStone

If we are not heeding the 'sober warnings' and exhortations of the Scriptures, then we will most likely be building with more wood, hay and stubble than precious stones, and metals.

  And we should also know that there could be serious consequences for this failure. Otherwise the apostle would not have added in this section:

 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:16,17)

  Since this sober warning IMMEDIATLY followed the warning about suffering loss, though  being saved, Paul is warning that being "destroyed" by God may be the loss suffered.

 This is not eternal destruction. But it is discipline and corrective punishment.
 Clearly, the POSSIBILTY exists. And rather than DENY it the proper Christian teacher is well advized to TEACH it.

  Paul taught it. So why should you be ashamed to do so ?

  
Quote from: LivelyStone

The Millennial Kingdom is our reward as well as the Kingdom of God that comes later, after the GWT Judgment of God.

   The age of the new heaven and the new earth and its eternal life is a GIFT.
   The age of the millennial kingdom is a RECOMPENSE.

   In that age of the new heaven and new earth we are told that God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes. But after the second coming of Christ some servants will be weeping and gnashing teeth.

 So all perfecting (including that which involved unpleasantness and tears) will have been COMPLETED by the time of the new heaven and new earth after the millennium.

  It is in Revelation 21 that we read - "And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (21:4)

  Generally speaking, by this time of the new heaven and new earth there will be FULL SATISFACTION and REST; there wll be no more cause for tears.

 This should mean that any saints cast into outer darkness, or lashed, or who suffered loss, or who were involved in weeping and gnashing of teeth, or who had been appointed a place with the hypoocrits, or disciplined or punished in any way HAVE NOW BEEN FULLY MATURED.

   I   admit that the precise details of all this I do not know.  We have to supplement our ignorance of the details with vigilance and cooperation.

 It is precisely because we do not know exactly HOW the Lord works this perfecting all out, that we best cooperate with the level of understanding that we do have. We know that we are today God's farm for Him to grow Christ within us. So we need to allow Him to grow within us.

   So many of the exhortations of the New Testament reveal this kind of situation. We are told what we need to know in order to cooperate.

 If you press me "HOW can Christians with transfigured bodies be disciplined or punished ?" I have to plead ignorance. HOWEVER, if there were no need for sober warnings then there would be none.  The fact that the New Testament has many warning and exhortations to the saints in the age of grace strongly indicates that we best not assume that God is LOCKED in with no way to adjust some of His children after the second coming of Christ.


  
Quote from: LivelyStone


We enter the Millennium AFTER our Judgment, coming with Christ in the clouds, returning in GLORY to avenge the wicked who seek to kill Hm at His coming, and we will assist Him in restoring order and peace among the surviving nations for 1000 years.

  This is all basically true if the situation is normal.

  But if you are saying that to "suffer loss" is inconsequential, trivial, and has no effect on responsibilities in the kingdom time, that is wrong.

 And the bridal army which accompanies Christ to the battle of Armegeddon is a remnant. It is not the entire body of the church but those REWARDED to do so.

 And the proof of this is certain because of Revelation 17:14 -

  "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for Je is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, [will also over come them]."


  Read carrefully. The ones who accompany Christ to defeat Antichrist and his armies are the CALLED and CHOSEN and FAITHFUL. To their being CALLED and CHOSEN they have added something. They have added FAITHFULNESS.

 It does not say that the ones accomanying Christ are the called and chosen and unfaithful. So the unfaithful and slothful servants will not be rewarded to accompany Christ in this victory lap.

  Those who will descend with Him as His army will add to thier calling and choosing cooperative FAITHFULNESS.

   Use your sanctified common sense. If a Christian still loves the world and, let us say, is in a lifestyle of fornication or adultery, do you think he will magically be transformed into a victorious soldier accompanying Jesus to Armegeddon based on his faith alone ?

 I do not mean falling into a sin occasionally from which he repents. I mean a brother living in abject backslidden, fleshy sexual sin. He has been called and chosen. But does his living that way suggest that he has been FAITHFUL ?

 In this case to "suffer loss" will be to suffer the loss of being allowed the honor to accompany Jesus Christ the Lamb to the final defeat of Antichrist and his armies.

 I believe that your spirit and your conscience agree with me even if your doctrinal mind does not.

  
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 21:50:46 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #28 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 21:49:24 »
After death or the rapture (resurrection) of the Church, we will meet Jesus with whatever we have already on our account. There is no making up, or further development, for we will be fully sanctified before Him.

Once we have put on glory, that's it. This life on Earth is the only opportunity we have been given to build on that foundation.

Those who are young and/or immature believers will CHANGE and we will all be mature, perfected, redeemed people of God---fully sanctified and made complete to fulfill our eternal calling.

As for your continued negative focus on backsliders: we are to try to bring them to repentance, for it says in scripture that those who commit fornication shall not see the kingdom of God. It also says that children of God do not make a PRACTICE of sinning. Judge then, who is your brother!
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 21:58:18 by Lively Stone »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #29 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:04:54 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


   After death or the rapture (resurrection) of the Church, we will meet Jesus with whatever we have already on our account. There is no making up, or further development, for we will be fully sanctified before Him.

Once we have put on glory, that's it. This life on Earth is the only opportunity we have been given to build on that foundation.
 
 

  What I have been teaching here is not that a Christian should live in constant dread.

  Here again, Paul as a model is very good. Paul said in Philippians that he did not account himself to have arrived. But he did do one thing. He forgot the things which were behind. And he stretched forth to the things which were before.

 Yesterday is under the blood of Jesus.
 Tomorrow may never come.
 That is under God's sovereignty.
 We Christians really only have TODAY.

  Paul said that he stretched forth and kept running the race. He was forgetting the things behind and stretching forth to the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 Paul also said there that those who are mature should have this mind. We are just in a race and should keep running.

 So I do agree with you in a certain sense. We arrive at the Lord as we are.
 You are certainly right.

 Having said that, I would remind you that the exhortations and warnings are there in the New Testament. I did not put them there. God put them there.

On one side of the equation we should not be paralyzed by introspection, trying to figure out how mature we are, etc. etc.

 On the other side of the equation, we must know that there are consequences for FAITHFULNESS and consequences for the lack of FAITHFULNESS.

  What happened to the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25 ? They had to go and pay the price to gain extra oil. When they went to do so and came back, the festive celebration was in progress and they were left out.

  Contemplate this, for the OIL is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The five foolish virgins gained the Holy Spirit oil. But they were LATE. And it made a difference.

  They were not eternally lost. For how can anyone who has the Holy Spirit perish forever ?
  But they were LATE in paying some price which they should have earlier paid.

  The judgment seat of Christ at the beginning of the millennium cries out to Christians "Don't be late!"

  
 
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:21:58 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #30 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:25:44 »

 On the other side of the equation, we must know that there are consequences for FAITHFULNESS and consequences for the lack of FAITHFULNESS.

That is right.

Quote
 What happened to the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25 ? They had to go and pay the price to gain extra oil. When they went to do so and came back, the festive celebration was in progress and they were left out.

  Contemplate this for the OIL is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The five foolish virgins gained the Holy Spirit oil. But they were LATE. And it made a difference.

They didn't walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, nor were they baptized in His power. They may have had the indwelling Holy Spirit that comes with salvation, but they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit that empowers us to live through trials and 'burn out'...like so many Christians today.

Quote
 They were not eternally lost. For how can anyone who has the Holy Spirit perish forever ?
  But they were LATE in paying some price which they should have earlier paid.

  The judgment seat of Christ at the beginning of the millennium cries out to Christians "Don't be late!"

If we keep our eye on eternity like the five wise virgins and are always ready and empowered by having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then we will not have to be concerned with unreadiness.

The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place before the Millennium begins. It takes place before Jesus' second coming.
  
 

« Last Edit: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:37:46 by Lively Stone »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #31 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:29:24 »


 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place before the Millennium begins. It takes place before Jesus' second coming.

   The judgment seat takes place before the millennium begins, as you say.

   What do you mean that it is before the second coming of Christ exactly ?

   

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 22:39:41 »


 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place before the Millennium begins. It takes place before Jesus' second coming.

   The judgment seat takes place before the millennium begins, as you say.

   What do you mean that it is before the second coming of Christ exactly ?

   

We are all rewarded with our gifts and our 'jobs' so to speak before we take that ride with Jesus, to vanquish His enemies, and throw Satan into the bottomless pit and to claim His earthly throne.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jun 13, 2011 - 03:28:27 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


    We are all rewarded with our gifts and our 'jobs' so to speak before we take that ride with Jesus, to vanquish His enemies, and throw Satan into the bottomless pit and to claim His earthly throne.

    Right!  The judgment seat of Christ occurs in the air before Christ descends with His Bridal army to vanquish  Christ's enemies at Armegeddon.

    In saying this you yourself have estabished the TRUTH of what I have been writing. You now end up having to agree with some things which you previously fought against.

    Here is why:

  1.)   You have proved that the saints have to be RAPTURED to appear before the Bema judgment seat of Christ.

  2.) Therefore the parables of Christ's dealing with His servants HAVE TO mean  raptured Christians.

  3.) That means that the servants cast into the outer darkness AND the servants rewarded both HAVE to be Christians.

   4.) And that means that the servant cast into outer darkness CANNOT refer to someone LOST to eternal punishment forever.

   5.) So the judged ones, by Christ in Matthew 25:14-30 and in Luke 19:11-27 , WHETHER REWARDED OR PUNISHED have to be Christians who are both RAPTURED and eternally SAVED.


   You have established exactly what I have been teaching. You see, to ARRIVE at the Bema seat is GOOD NEWS. That is because only Christians can be raptured and appear there. So being raptured to appear at the judgment seat of Christ is an assurance that you are saved.

   But some are rewarded and some suffer loss and can be cast into the outer darkness. So both the rewarding and the punishing of those servants have to relate to the 1,000 year kingdom and not to eternity. Checkmate.
    
    
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


    We are all rewarded with our gifts and our 'jobs' so to speak before we take that ride with Jesus, to vanquish His enemies, and throw Satan into the bottomless pit and to claim His earthly throne.


     Right. So then I would again draw the readers' attention to the DISTINCTION made between the judged unfaithful servant who is Christian AND the ENEMIES of Christ who are to be slain.

   "And the other [slave] came, saying, Master, behold your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief;  For I was afraid of you ... He [the Master] said to him Out of your mouth I will judge you, wicked slave, You knew that I was a harsh man ... Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and when I came I would have collected it with interest... etc.

  However, these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them bring [them] here and slay them before me." (See Luke 19:20-27)


  The judged servant is not of the group of slain enemies. So he is not an unbeliever but a believer. And his negligence to the Lord's charge assigned to him wins him the rebuke "wicked slave" .

 That is not wicked for being an condemned sinner, but rather for being a purchased slave of the Master,  who was unfaithful with the Master's riches.  

The punishment as well as the reward of these servants HAS to be during the millennial kingdom.

    

    
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 13, 2011 - 10:07:28 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: How much reward / punishment to Christians ?
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jun 13, 2011 - 12:01:29 »
I don't think you have established what 'servants' are. If they are truly born again Christians, they will be welcomed into the Kingdom---and the Millennium. No punishment required. However, if you think there is punishment for the redeemed, then so be it---it will be wonderful.

No truly born again believer will be cast into outer darkness. This is why the identity of the servant needs to be understood. The unfaithful servant was a false convert.


 

     
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