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Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #140 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 21:29:06 »
There is nothing BLESSED about the second resurrection! That is the resurrection of the WICKED. Are you people reading the same Bible? Are you not simply manipulating?

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #140 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 21:29:06 »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #141 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 06:33:20 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone

 I think this all boils down to your misinterpretation of the parables you are using, and you are putting a new, and personal spin on them. It MUST be rejected!

  You have not demonstrated specifically where the misinterpretation of any parable by me is.   Vague and general grumblings "This has to be rejected!"  I cannot respect. That is too dogmatic.


Quote from: LivelyStone

The only people we will be warning about hellfire in the Millennium are those who are mortal and comprise the nations we will be ruling. Jesus Christ our Lord is not going to share His throne with anyone who is not already a glorified, fully sanctified saint!

Understand!

   Now notice how I respond to this criticism. I will be SPECIFIC. This is what you should do, for the truth's sake. And if you cannot do the job, you should invite someone here who you trust can do that job.

 I am just as much for the truth of the word of God as you are. And this I have shared with you is not the milk of the word. It is meat. It is the word of righteousness and not the milk of the word.

  Now watch the specifics:

  In Luke 14:34 Jesus warns the disciples of a third possible place that a believer may go besides just "Heaven" or "Hell".

  "Therefore salt is good; but if even the salt becomes tasteless, with what will its saltiness be restored ?

  It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


 The "land" should represent the kingdom of God in its future reward.
 The "manure pile" should represent eternal perdition of the lost.

 The salt that has lost its saltiness is neither good for the land or the dung hill. This should mean that the disciple who has lost his consecration and sanctified "flavor" if you will, is not good for the kingdom of God in the millennium nor for eternal punishment.

 Such a one is in danger of going to a third place which does not sound positive:

  " It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


 The backslidden Christian who has lost his characteristic of being the salt of the earth is not fit for the millinial kingdom nor for eternal punishment. He will be cast into the outer darkness which is neither the kingdom of God nor eternal damnation.

 And the Lord warns that all those who have an ear to hear, should hear.

 Now look at Matthew 5:13:

 "You [Christian disciples] are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has become tasteless, with what shall it be salted ? It is not longer good for anything except to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men. "

 Salt is used to preserve food from becoming rotten. For the Lord Jesus to say the disciples are the salt of the earth means that they act as a presevative. Without the Christians, the earth  would become fully rotten. The presence of the Christians acts as a preservative to hold in check the complete degradation of society on earth.

 "You are the salt of the earth". But if the Christian looses his distinctiveness of saltiness, if he looses his function to preserve the rotting of society, he has become like them.

 He is not good for eternal punishment because he has been saved. Right?" Yet he is also not good for the kingdom of God for such a kingdom is not of corrupted worldly Christians to be reigning.

 He is only good for a third place. And no matter how you look at it, that third place sounds negative - "It is not longer good for anything execpt to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men."

  In the parables the slothful or unfaithful servant to be cast into "the outer darkness," must correspond to the Christian who has lost his salt being cast out - rejected for the kingdom reward, yet also saved from eternal punishment.

 And Christians SHOULD be warned of this and not be misled that there is only HEAVEN and HELL and nothing else to be concerned about.

 Paul admonished and warned  those whom he was seeking to perfect as Christians:

 " ... Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ." (Col. 1:28,29)
 
 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.

 Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men ..." (2 Cor. 5:10,11a)


  Paul warned and admonished Christians about being matured and appearing before the judgment seat of Christ. He did so based on knowing "the fear of the Lord".

  And you should not consider that only good things can be dispensed to the believer at that judgment seat of Christ. For the word says we will receive the things [done] through the body "according to what he has practiced, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD."

  LivelyStone, could we not receive some BAD thing from the Lord at His judgment seat for the saved ?

 You may say no bad could be received, but only to suffer loss. You may say we should reject any thought that the believer could receive something bad. But what does the word of God say ?

 "Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as recompense. You serve the Lord Christ.

 For he who does unrighteously will receive what he unrighteously did, and there is no respect of persons." (Col. 3:24,25)


  So we Christians have to be warned. We may not only lose a reward. We may not only fail to be rewarded in the millennial kingdom. We may receive correspondingly for what we " unrighteously did " at that judgment seat of Christ.

   So think carefully before you as a Chrsitian, reject this kind of teaching.
  
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 07:01:34 by Feedmysheep »

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #141 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 06:33:20 »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #142 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 07:25:57 »
 
Quote from: Godlovejoy


   Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  

I think that the "Outer Darkness" represents not being worthy to enter the kingdom in the first resurrection, being outside of the kingdom.   It is outer darkness because the kingdom is "Light".  I believe that the weeping and gnashing of teeth describes great sorrow and pain of being left behind to live out your days missing the first resurrection, and having to endure the worst of the greatest tribulation that the world has ever seen.

Does this make any sense?

   [/size]

  I have not yet responded to your request that I speak to Revelation chapter 7. I just have not found the time to yet. I will.

   I am still contemplating some aspects of your understanding.

   But just taking this last paragraph alone - I also understand that the outer darkness is a realm of punishment or discipline outside of the realm of the Lord's glorious presence on earth.

   The kingdom and its light have something to do with the absence of this light in some "outer darkness" during the millennium.

 Here we are on the same page.

  Your concept of Christians at the first resurrection and Christians at the second resurrection, I have a hard time with. I don't think you are right about Christians coming out of the church age participating in the second resurrection.

  I am really contemplating and studying this matter off line.  It is an interesting problem to me because on one hand it may shine some light on a problem I have with the bodies of the saints who are disciplined. But it also introduces some bad problems too.

 So it is kind of a trade off.

 We may end up discussing in the future the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25.

  So, I am careful not to say any more until I look into this second resurrection matter more carefully. And I need to consult with some brothers and ask them how they see the matter.

 I confess it is kind of exciting.  I have to say that I don't think you are right to assign Christians to the second resurrrection. But within this concept of yours,  there might be SOMETHING that is a missing piece of a puzzle that I have contemplated for a long time.

  I think as long as we love the Lord Jesus in our diving into the word, allowing Him to work His mind into us, we are safe.

 We know in part. And we prophesy in part. Thanks for laboring to make your thoughts a little clearer.

  
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 07:34:19 by Feedmysheep »

Offline glen

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #143 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 11:41:37 »
There is nothing BLESSED about the second resurrection! That is the resurrection of the WICKED. Are you people reading the same Bible? Are you not simply manipulating?

what about this?


I suppose I should have said to read Revelation 19 as well, seeing as chapter 20 is the continuation of that. The Bride / Church isn't on Earth! She is in heaven. There are NO DEAD IN CHRIST IN THEIR GRAVES. THE SECOND RESURRECTION IS OF ONLY THE WICKED.

Those whose names are found in the Book of Life
will be those who died without ever knowing the name of Jesus---those who lived in prehistorical times, or in far-away, remote places, and those who have received Christ as an inhabitant of the Earth during the Millennium and died.
[/quote]

pay particular attention to the last sentence, what happens to the ones who die in the millenium who received christ?

do they get resurrected to hell, or just stay dead, or get resurrected to eternal life?

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #143 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 11:41:37 »
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Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #144 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 14:35:06 »
Quote from: LivelyStone

 I think this all boils down to your misinterpretation of the parables you are using, and you are putting a new, and personal spin on them. It MUST be rejected!

  You have not demonstrated specifically where the misinterpretation of any parable by me is.   Vague and general grumblings "This has to be rejected!"  I cannot respect. That is too dogmatic.


Quote from: LivelyStone

The only people we will be warning about hellfire in the Millennium are those who are mortal and comprise the nations we will be ruling. Jesus Christ our Lord is not going to share His throne with anyone who is not already a glorified, fully sanctified saint!

Understand!

   Now notice how I respond to this criticism. I will be SPECIFIC. This is what you should do, for the truth's sake. And if you cannot do the job, you should invite someone here who you trust can do that job.

 I am just as much for the truth of the word of God as you are. And this I have shared with you is not the milk of the word. It is meat. It is the word of righteousness and not the milk of the word.

  Now watch the specifics:

  In Luke 14:34 Jesus warns the disciples of a third possible place that a believer may go besides just "Heaven" or "Hell".

  "Therefore salt is good; but if even the salt becomes tasteless, with what will its saltiness be restored ?

  It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


 The "land" should represent the kingdom of God in its future reward.
 The "manure pile" should represent eternal perdition of the lost.

 The salt that has lost its saltiness is neither good for the land or the dung hill. This should mean that the disciple who has lost his consecration and sanctified "flavor" if you will, is not good for the kingdom of God in the millennium nor for eternal punishment.

 Such a one is in danger of going to a third place which does not sound positive:

  " It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


 The backslidden Christian who has lost his characteristic of being the salt of the earth is not fit for the millinial kingdom nor for eternal punishment. He will be cast into the outer darkness which is neither the kingdom of God nor eternal damnation.

 And the Lord warns that all those who have an ear to hear, should hear.

 Now look at Matthew 5:13:

 "You [Christian disciples] are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has become tasteless, with what shall it be salted ? It is not longer good for anything except to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men. "

 Salt is used to preserve food from becoming rotten. For the Lord Jesus to say the disciples are the salt of the earth means that they act as a presevative. Without the Christians, the earth  would become fully rotten. The presence of the Christians acts as a preservative to hold in check the complete degradation of society on earth.

 "You are the salt of the earth". But if the Christian looses his distinctiveness of saltiness, if he looses his function to preserve the rotting of society, he has become like them.

 He is not good for eternal punishment because he has been saved. Right?" Yet he is also not good for the kingdom of God for such a kingdom is not of corrupted worldly Christians to be reigning.

 He is only good for a third place. And no matter how you look at it, that third place sounds negative - "It is not longer good for anything execpt to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men."

  In the parables the slothful or unfaithful servant to be cast into "the outer darkness," must correspond to the Christian who has lost his salt being cast out - rejected for the kingdom reward, yet also saved from eternal punishment.

 And Christians SHOULD be warned of this and not be misled that there is only HEAVEN and HELL and nothing else to be concerned about.

 Paul admonished and warned  those whom he was seeking to perfect as Christians:

 " ... Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ." (Col. 1:28,29)
 
 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.

 Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men ..." (2 Cor. 5:10,11a)


  Paul warned and admonished Christians about being matured and appearing before the judgment seat of Christ. He did so based on knowing "the fear of the Lord".

  And you should not consider that only good things can be dispensed to the believer at that judgment seat of Christ. For the word says we will receive the things [done] through the body "according to what he has practiced, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD."

  LivelyStone, could we not receive some BAD thing from the Lord at His judgment seat for the saved ?

 You may say no bad could be received, but only to suffer loss. You may say we should reject any thought that the believer could receive something bad. But what does the word of God say ?

 "Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as recompense. You serve the Lord Christ.

 For he who does unrighteously will receive what he unrighteously did, and there is no respect of persons." (Col. 3:24,25)


  So we Christians have to be warned. We may not only lose a reward. We may not only fail to be rewarded in the millennial kingdom. We may receive correspondingly for what we " unrighteously did " at that judgment seat of Christ.

   So think carefully before you as a Chrsitian, reject this kind of teaching.
  

You are sadly deceived. We will receive reward and have rewards taken from us at the Bema Seat Judgment. But we do not lose the reward of the Kingdom.

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #144 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 14:35:06 »



Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #145 on: Wed Jun 01, 2011 - 16:29:31 »
Quote from: Godlovejoy


   Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  

I think that the "Outer Darkness" represents not being worthy to enter the kingdom in the first resurrection, being outside of the kingdom.   It is outer darkness because the kingdom is "Light".  I believe that the weeping and gnashing of teeth describes great sorrow and pain of being left behind to live out your days missing the first resurrection, and having to endure the worst of the greatest tribulation that the world has ever seen.

Does this make any sense?

   [/size]

  I have not yet responded to your request that I speak to Revelation chapter 7. I just have not found the time to yet. I will.

   I am still contemplating some aspects of your understanding.

   But just taking this last paragraph alone - I also understand that the outer darkness is a realm of punishment or discipline outside of the realm of the Lord's glorious presence on earth.

   The kingdom and its light have something to do with the absence of this light in some "outer darkness" during the millennium.

 Here we are on the same page.

  Your concept of Christians at the first resurrection and Christians at the second resurrection, I have a hard time with. I don't think you are right about Christians coming out of the church age participating in the second resurrection.

  I am really contemplating and studying this matter off line.  It is an interesting problem to me because on one hand it may shine some light on a problem I have with the bodies of the saints who are disciplined. But it also introduces some bad problems too.

 So it is kind of a trade off.

 We may end up discussing in the future the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25.

  So, I am careful not to say any more until I look into this second resurrection matter more carefully. And I need to consult with some brothers and ask them how they see the matter.

 I confess it is kind of exciting.  I have to say that I don't think you are right to assign Christians to the second resurrrection. But within this concept of yours,  there might be SOMETHING that is a missing piece of a puzzle that I have contemplated for a long time.

  I think as long as we love the Lord Jesus in our diving into the word, allowing Him to work His mind into us, we are safe.

 We know in part. And we prophesy in part. Thanks for laboring to make your thoughts a little clearer.

  

Thank you, I think that it is quite noble of you to go and seek the Lord.  Who else could possibly have the answers? 

I don't mean to put more on the table because I greatly respect your dismissal here, but when you read Rev 7, notice the first half of the chapter seems to describe the chosen elect, and the second group that cannot be measured that came out of great tribulation and washed their robes clean are the believer's who resurrected at the second resurrection.  I see it that they still had unrepented sin in their life, and did not make themselves worthy to rule and reign with Christ. 
* Also, we must note that when we die, we are unaware of time because we are dead.  So, when we resurrect, whether it be at the first or second, we will not be aware of even 1,000 years gone by.  So, it's not so terrible to be in the less blessed resurrection, you will just receive a lesser reward because you didn't make yourself worthy for the better resurrection for greater reward.  The more you give up of this life on earth,  and this worldly system, the more reward.  I believe that's why John the baptist was considered a great prophet and even the least, as compared to him will be even greater in the kingdom, as Jesus speaks of. 

God bless you as you seek Him,  may He fill you with wisdom that can only come from Him.  I look forward to your return to the topic. 

Godlovejoy

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #146 on: Thu Jun 02, 2011 - 06:20:57 »
 LivelyStone,  

Now speaking to multiple people sometimes gets confusing. So for now, I'll just keep a bookmark in this exhange between you and I. I want to write something, possibly to glen and to Godlovejoy.

Though you strongly object to me pointing out that some servants are said to be cast into outer darkness or outside of the kingdom, you seem not to be too specific at locating where in the passages I submitted, you detect an error in interpretation.

I hear your general objection. I don't see your specific problem in my handling of the supporting evidence  I provide to you.

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

  You are sadly deceived. We will receive reward and have rewards taken from us at the Bema Seat Judgment. But we do not lose the reward of the Kingdom.

   I don't think I am deceived here. Thanks for your brotherly concern though.
  
   I think that the One who is upon that judgment seat, Christ, has a large scope of possible dealings He may administer. In either the positive aspect or the negtive aspect, I read that the lattitude Christ's has is great.

  I don't think you take all the verses and notice the wide scope of possibilities. I think you cut off the negative side at a certain point. Beyond that point you refuse to recognize that such discipline could conceivably happen to a redeemed child of God.

  My honest sense of the wide scope of things this Righteous Judge can do is larger.

   But we do agree that we Christians must appear before this Bema. And I am happy that we at least agree on that.

   Remember. Even at the Judgment Seat of Christ there can be MERCY. You are right that MOTIVE will play a big part in that examination. But also how we judged others will be an important component as well:

 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy." (Matt. 5:7)

  "Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you." (Matt. 7:1,2)

  Notice how Paul desires for an apparent Christian brother to find mercy in a day of judgment from Christ.

 "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain. But being in Rome, he sought me out diligently and found me.

May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord in that day. And in how many things he served me in Ephesus, you know best." (2 Timothy 1:16-18)


 Agape in the Lord sister
 FMS


  
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 02, 2011 - 06:28:19 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #147 on: Thu Jun 02, 2011 - 07:22:49 »
 
Quote from: Godlovejoy

  Thank you, I think that it is quite noble of you to go and seek the Lord.  Who else could possibly have the answers?  

   We have much on the table. And multiple exhanges with different people can get things a little confused.

  
Quote from: Godlovejoy
I don't mean to put more on the table because I greatly respect your dismissal here, but when you read Rev 7, notice the first half of the chapter seems to describe the chosen elect, and the second group that cannot be measured that came out of great tribulation and washed their robes clean are the believer's who resurrected at the second resurrection.  I see it that they still had unrepented sin in their life, and did not make themselves worthy to rule and reign with Christ.  

   Forgive me if I cannot quite recall what your point was with Revelation 7. But now is a good time for a comment from me on Rev. 7.

   The vision of Rev. 7 is an insertion between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Seal. As you know the Sixth Seal is the beginning of the supernatural calamities upon the earth. This Sixth Seal is a warning, via the shaking of the cosmos, that divine judgment is soon to come.

 Without taking a lot of time with proof texts, I make this general comment. God is shaking the creation before the beginning of the great tribulation, warning the earth of what is to come.

 Now, chapter 7 is an insertion at this point, I believe, to inform the reader of something important. God, who is about to judge the whole creation, will PRESERVE for Himself portions of the human race. This is the message. Yes, the One who shakes heaven and earth so that man calls for mountains to fall upon him to hide him, is about to judge.

 Two groups are seen under this divine preservation. First there are 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Isreal. These stand for the preserved national Israel. The second group is a huge number of saved people that cannot be numbered it is so large.

 I take this to be a vision of all the saved people who have come through the world history of tribulation to arrive at God's eternal kingdom. When it says " These are those who come out of the great tribulation, ..." (v.14) I do not believe that means they have come out of JUST the 42 months, the 1260 days of the "great tribulation".


 This large multitude that could not be numbered, are those who have come forth from ALL tribulation throughout the history of mankind on the planet, to all be raptured before God for entering into eternal blessings of salvation.

 You see, since the fall of man, all people of faith have had to pass through the tribulation of a fallen world, unto God's salvation.  

Without too much more labor on this point, I would just say that "the great triublation" through which this numberless multitude has come forth, is general for all tribulation in world history through which the saved have come.

 God's promise was that through the seed of Abraham all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Here in chapter 7 we see a preservation of 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel. And we see a numberless multitude of raptured people. The inserted visions of Revelation 7 inform us that through what is about to unfold, God will preserve these peoples.  

  Now let me see your comment again.

 
Quote from: Godlovejoy

  notice the first half of the chapter seems to describe the chosen elect, and the second group that cannot be measured that came out of great tribulation and washed their robes clean are the believer's who resurrected at the second resurrection.  I see it that they still had unrepented sin in their life, and did not make themselves worthy to rule and reign with Christ.

  You may be using the phrase "chosen elect" in a way I need your clarification on.
  It almost makes me think you are using "chosen elect" to mean only Jews. Or it seems you may be using it in a way in which part of Matthew 24 would confirm only Jews are intended in the expression "chosen elect".

 I won't touch this much here.

  I don't associate the multitude which cannot be numbered to a specific resurrection, whether the first or the second.

  I see this a general vision that a tremendous multitude will be preserved through all earth's accumulated troubles, trials, tribulations, misfortune in any age at any time. These people arrive at a kind of Feast of Tabernacles, indicated by the palm branches in their hands. They arrive at rest and satisfaction after trial.

  You seem to be associating the great multitude with the second resurrection in a specific way.

  I don't feel comfortable insisting that this multitude INCLUDES Christians after the millennium but EXCLUDES those in the millennium.

  I don't feel comfortable reading into the vision a PORTION of the church in any way. I think the multitude is so great as to be a general vision of eternal salvation. I am not even sure if the Jews are excluded from this multitude. I am not even sure if the previous 144,000 are not ALSO included in this multitude which cannot be numbered.

  This is MANKIND saved. Do you see what I mean. At this time, the segmentation of this huge multitude in the way you see it, doesn't sit right with me.

  I don't see this as those who necessarily were not participating in the millennium.
  We can talk more about this in another post.

  The visions speaks to me that, generally speaking, a gigantic multitude, must arrive at rest and satisfaction, being shepherded by the Lamb Christ, out from all the earth's history of tribulation in all ages.

 I honestly don't think we should segment the vision of this multitude to mean something narrower than that.

 Now I have to suspend fellowship because I am being called away. I will continue latter today.

  

Quote from: Godlovejoy

* Also, we must note that when we die, we are unaware of time because we are dead.  So, when we resurrect, whether it be at the first or second, we will not be aware of even 1,000 years gone by.  So, it's not so terrible to be in the less blessed resurrection, you will just receive a lesser reward because you didn't make yourself worthy for the better resurrection for greater reward.  The more you give up of this life on earth,  and this worldly system, the more reward.  I believe that's why John the baptist was considered a great prophet and even the least, as compared to him will be even greater in the kingdom, as Jesus speaks of.  

God bless you as you seek Him,  may He fill you with wisdom that can only come from Him.  I look forward to your return to the topic.  

Godlovejoy

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #148 on: Thu Jun 02, 2011 - 11:57:17 »
The Bema Seat is the Mercy Seat, where all believers will receive nothing but that.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #149 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 05:48:18 »

Quote from: LivelyStone
The Bema Seat is the Mercy Seat, where all believers will receive nothing but that.

 Where do you get the term "the Mercy Seat" ?
 Prove to me that the Mercy Seat means the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

Offline glen

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #150 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 08:10:22 »
feedmysheep
regarding what you wrote here;

   The vision of Rev. 7 is an insertion between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Seal. As you know the Sixth Seal is the beginning of the supernatural calamities upon the earth. This Sixth Seal is a warning, via the shaking of the cosmos, that divine judgment is soon to come.

 Without taking a lot of time with proof texts, I make this general comment. God is shaking the creation before the beginning of the great tribulation, warning the earth of what is to come.

  
i've looked into the 6th seal lately and think it might actually be the same event as the 7th vial, and also matt 24 and isaiah ch 2, after the tribulation

looking at this verse;

isaiah 2
19 And men have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

21 To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

and this;

REV 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
REV 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken --
REV 6:14 and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;
REV 6:15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,
REV 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'
REV 6:17 because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?

i believe these are the same events at the same time - they both speak of the day of the lord, and concerning this verse;

20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

i cannot see this happening at the start of the tribulation but only when christ comes back and everyone sees him

the 6th seal resembles the 7th vial as well;

REV 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath come!'
REV 16:18 and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake came, such as came not since men came upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake -- so great!
REV 16:19 And it came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger,
REV 16:20 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found,
REV 16:21 and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.

in rev 7 we see the great multitude in the sanctuary of God

REV 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary,

at the 7th trumpet the sanctuary is opened;

REV 11:19 And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

but no one is in the sanctuary until the 7 vials are poured out;

REV 15:5 And after these things I saw, and lo, opened was the sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
REV 15:6 and come forth did the seven messengers having the seven plagues, out of the sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:
REV 15:7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;
REV 15:8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.

it seems from here that the multitude in rev 7 is a vision of what happens after the 7 vials are finished, not before

it's also apparent that the trib saints on the sea of glass are not in the sanctuary at that time but they are before the throne, it would seem the sanctuary is opened at the 7th trumpet, out come the angels to pour out the plagues and then the saints enter into the sanctuary



Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #151 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 12:06:01 »
 
Quote from: glen
 
i've looked into the 6th seal lately and think it might actually be the same event as the 7th vial, and also matt 24 and isaiah ch 2, after the tribulation

looking at this verse;

isaiah 2
19 And men have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

21 To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.

and this;

REV 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
REV 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken --
REV 6:14 and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;
REV 6:15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,
REV 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'
REV 6:17 because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?

i believe these are the same events at the same time - they both speak of the day of the lord, and concerning this verse;

20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

i cannot see this happening at the start of the tribulation but only when christ comes back and everyone sees him

  It is a good point that Isaiah 2 here is obviously similiar to what we read about the Sixth Seal.  The overlap in details is undeniable.

  My chief [but not only] study Bible, The Recovery Version, has in the side bar to Isaiah 2:10,19,21 for Rev. 6:15 ie. "hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains ... etc."

  Now, to your further point is that this Sixth Seal should be the public appearance of Christ when everyone sees Him :

 What is SAID by those who hide themselves in the caves is only a record of THEIR reaction. It does not necessarily mean that the time of judgment is right then, but only that terror has made the sinners FEEL that the absolute end has come.

"And they say [THEY SAY] ... to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide is from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand ?" (Rev. 6:16,17)

 What they say is according to the feeling of their consceince. That is the fearing of the coming of the judgment of God. This, however, is not a proclamation of God concerning the exact time of His coming judgment. The nature of this calamity as a general warning, I think, remains.

 Footnote 12(2) in the RcV is helpful on the phrase "great earthquake" in Rev. 6:12.

 "There will be two calamitites of the shaking and changing of the earth and the hosts in heaven. The first will occur at the beginning of the great tribulation (Joel. 2:30-31), and the second will occur after the great tribulation (Joel 3:11-16; Matt. 24:29-30; Luke 21:25,26). What is covered in the sixth seal is the first calamity. It can be considered not only a warning but also an initiation of the coming great tribulation."    

 Now, here I am trying to persuade you that this sixth seal is an initiation at the beginning of the great tribulation. In deciding whether you should accept this or not, consider other evidences:

 The sixth seal is apparently the ANSWER of God to the cry of the martyred saints underneath the altar in the fifth seal. They cry out for vengence and they are instructed to rest a little longer until the number of more martyrs are completed (6:11). This should tell us that the complete end of the world wide trial is not yet.

 Immediately after this reply given to the cry for vengence by the martyred saints of the past, the sixth seal reveals a supernatural shaking of the creation. But remember that final avenging is not yet to occur.

 Now the great tribulation commences not with the appearing of supernatural calamties but with the trumpting of trumpets five, six, and seven. The trumpeting of the fifth trumpet which is the FIRST WOE of the THREE WOES, is the beginning of the great tribulation. That last three woes, the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet are the great tribulation proper.

 Apparently, there will not be much difference in time between the sixth seal and the first five trumpets (Rev. 9:1-11).

Joel 2:30-31 first mentions the blood of the first and second trumpet.
Joel 2:30-31 also mentions the fire of the first, second, and third trumpets (8:7-10).
Joel 2:30-31 also mentions the smoke of the fifth trumpet (9:1-3).
Joel 2:30-31 then mentions the sun and moon of the sixth seal.

 A comparison of Revelation 9:4 and 7:3 indicates that the fifth trumpet occurs very close to the time of the sixth seal.

 Compare:
  Revelation 9:4 -  "And it was said to them [demonic locusts from the fifth trumpet] that they shoyuld not harm the grass of the earth or any green thing or any tree, but men only who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

      Revelation 7:3 - "Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads."


  The command to seal the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel is mentioned AFTER the shaking of the earth in the sixth seal. It is also mentioned BEFORE the four angels holding back the tumultuous four winds are allowed to release them to trouble the earth:

 "And AFTER THIS [after the vision of the sixth seal] I saw four angles standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on t he earth nor on the sea nor on any tree." (Rev. 7:1)

  Before the destructive winds are allowed to damage the earth, the Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, seals the "the slaves of our God" with the seal of the living God.

  These facts reveal that the sixth seal is an initiation of judgment rather than its conclusion. However, the conscience of the sinners and their reaction, compels them to cry out that this moment is the end.

  Notice also that there are seven trumpets. None of these judgments touch man's body directly until trumpet number five. The previous trumpets one through four are indeed divine judgments. But their severity is limited as of yet to the physical world. It is at the fifth trumpet, the beginning of the three deadly WOES, that man's body is said to be touched.

 We should regard that there are natural calamities, then a great supernatural shaking, and encreasing judgments starting first with the physical world and encreasing to include man's body in the great tribulation.

 Here after the opening of the sixth seal and the trumpeting of the first four trumpets, is the announcement of the most severe great triublation:

 Revelation 8:13 - " And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet !"

 The seventh and last trumpet should be understood as after the opening of the sixth seal and a conclusion to the three woes.

  Now, though I will not spend much time on it now, the further proof that the trumpeting of the fifth trumpet is the beginning of the great tribulation of three and one half years lies here:

 In the fifth trumpet, the star which falls to earth is a personage - "And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heven fallen to the earth, AND TO HIM ... was given the key of the put of the abyss." (Rev. 8:1)

 In brief, this "fallen" star, to whom the key to the abyss is granted, is Satan. Satan is driven down "fallen" to the earth and permitted to release demonic forces loose and the Antichrist also. And the reason we can know that this fallen star is Satan is because Revelation 12 covers the same event from another angle.

 Satan is driven out of heaven by Michael and his good angels because of the rapture of a group of overcoming brothers at least 42 months prior to the end of the age. And Satan being driven down to earth is the CAUSE for the great tribulation to commence:

 "Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)

 If you have been raptured to the heavens, there is cause to rejoice. If you are upon the earth there is cause for WOE. And why? Beause the devil has  come down to earth knowing that he has only a short time. That short time being 42 months or 1260 days to persecute the rest of the bright woman's seed. That is a time and times and half a time as three and one half years.

This coming down to earth of the devil by the warring of good angels and rapture of the corporate manchild, is also the falling of the star in chapter 9, which star is given the keys to the abyss to release hellish things upon the earth.

 The opening of the sixth seal is an initiation rather than a conclusion of the period of woe. But the sinners upon the earth think that it is the bitter conclusion.

  
Quote from: glen

the 6th seal resembles the 7th vial as well;

REV 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath come!'
REV 16:18 and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake came, such as came not since men came upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake -- so great!
REV 16:19 And it came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger,
REV 16:20 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found,
REV 16:21 and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.
[/size]

  I would like to consider this evidence of yours further for now.

  For now I would just recall to you that two great shakings and changing of the earth in Joel.

 At the beginning of the great tribulation:   "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon, into bloo before the great and terrible Day of Jehovah comes."

 And at the end of the great tribulation:  

"Send forth the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; Come, tread, For the winepress is full; The wine vats overflow, For their evil is great.

 Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near in the valley of dcision. The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars withdraw their shining.

 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, And from Jerusalem He will utter His voice, and the heavens and the earth will shake. But Jehovah will be a shelter to his people and a stronghold to the children of Israel." (Joel 3:11-16)

 "And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heasven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 And at that time the ign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:29,30)

 "And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth anguish of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the billows. Men fainting from fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." (Luke 21:25,26)


  
 
Quote from: glen

in rev 7 we see the great multitude in the sanctuary of God

REV 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary,

at the 7th trumpet the sanctuary is opened;

REV 11:19 And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

but no one is in the sanctuary until the 7 vials are poured out;

REV 15:5 And after these things I saw, and lo, opened was the sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
REV 15:6 and come forth did the seven messengers having the seven plagues, out of the sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:
REV 15:7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;
REV 15:8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.

it seems from here that the multitude in rev 7 is a vision of what happens after the 7 vials are finished, not before

it's also apparent that the trib saints on the sea of glass are not in the sanctuary at that time but they are before the throne, it would seem the sanctuary is opened at the 7th trumpet, out come the angels to pour out the plagues and then the saints enter into the sanctuary


  I agree that what is revealed as a unnumbered multitude is indeed AFTER the last judgments.  These are those who have come out of  the great tribulation, it says. I wrote that I understand this to be any and ALL great trials, tribulations, sufferings of the entire world history.

   Of course the real and final tabernacle of God in the universe is God Himself. And Revelation says that He will tabernacle over them:

 " ... and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them." (7:15b)

  This corresponds to the entire New Jerusalem being the tabernacle of God. And God and the Lamb are the temple in the whole city. I would encourage you to read some of the discussion of "The New Jerusalem" on this End Times Forum.

 The fountains of waters of life that the Shepherd lead this multitude to should be God Himself as the Spirit of life. And the entire New Jeruslem has the dimensions of the Holy of Holies for it is a cube:

 "And the city lies square, and its length and is a s great as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed to a length of twelve thousand stadia; the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal." (Rev. 21`:16)

 In this revelation made known to us by "signs" man finally is brought by God's salvation to be His dwelling place, the human and divine living Holy of Holies. In this living city God and the Lamb are the temple -

 "And I saw no temple in it, for the Lrd God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. 21:22)

 Eventually human history come to a climax after all tribulations. God tabernacles over His redeemed people. The Triune God is the temple in the city and the whole city has the dimensions of the cubic Holy of Holies.

 The dimensions of the Holy of Holies, in both the tebernacle and the temple, were equal om ;emgth, breadth, and height (Exo. 26:2-8; 1 Kings 6:20). The equal dimensions of the city and God and the Lamb being the temple show God and man being united, blended, and in an organic union. Here God tabernacles over His redeemed people and God and His people become a mutual dwelling place.

  This may not speak much to timing of raptures. But ultimately through all of God's operation, not only rapture is secured, but the mingling of God and man for the New Jerusalem.

  
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 12:41:38 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #152 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 12:17:59 »

Quote from: LivelyStone
The Bema Seat is the Mercy Seat, where all believers will receive nothing but that.


 Where do you get the term "the Mercy Seat" ?
 Prove to me that the Mercy Seat means the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 


Here's a good explanation. There is nothing but mercy at the Bema Seat.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7gN1-SDXzk[/youtube]

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #153 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 13:21:57 »
 LivelyStone,

 I did not hear Carl Stevens say exactly what you are saying. But that link is only a portion of the total message.

 It is very edifying.  I like it. But what he says is not exactly what you are disagreeing with me about.

  Now, Carl Steven said that as Christians, we would not even APPEAR before the bema seat if it was not already for God's mercy. To this I say Amen. And I already wrote that the Judgment Seat of Christ is only for those for whom the issue of eternal redemption has already been solved in the affirmative.

 So here I agree completely. Had not God already saved us according to His mercy [ -
(Titus 3:5)


 "Not out of works of righteousness which we have did but according to His mercy He saved us ...".

 So a totally agree that without His mercy none could appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, the bema to receive reward or loss of reward.

 If in that sense you mean only mercy is received at the judgment seat of Christ, I can agree that it is a mercy that anyone appear there.


 What is the point that we do not agree on ?  I said that some servants of the Lord Jesus will be cast into the outer darkness. I said some servants of the Lord will not only lose reward but be punished at or as a result of appearing at the judgment seat of Christ.

 This is what you said is self deception on my part. No, it is self deception and outright contradiction of the Bible to deny it.  Now if you want to say to be cast into outer darkness is a MERCY, even relatively speaking, OK. Compared to being eternally lost, sure, being cast temporarily into outer darkness would be a mercy.

  But the point I make is that at the judgment seat, some harsh recompense may be received. And I gave you verses to prove that.

  Now Carl Stevens said that the judgment at the BEMA will be based on how we dealt with the mercy seat.  I surely have no problem with that. But that does NOT say that a believer could not receive a harsh punishment at the BEMA.

  Judgement based on your response to mercy is not a garuantee of receiving mercy.
  OK, if a Christian is punished from the BEMA it is a mercy compared to eternal punishement. With this there is no dispute.

  But if you do not teach that one coming before the BEMA could not be disciplined, punished, corrected, and even find that he or she will be possibly weeping or gnashing his or her teeth, you are not being faithful to the New Testament.

  I did not hear Carl Stevens say that no Christian can receive a unpleasant judgment at the BEMA.

 Last of all "Mercy Seat" I think is not a good translation of the phrase "propitiatory cover".   King James has "mercy seat" where the RcV reads "propitiatiry cover".

That is why I asked you where you are getting the phrase "mercy seat". And that question is NOT whether or not God is merciful. We know He is. Rather the question is where are you getting the English expression "mercy seat" ?

  

 
  
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 13:57:35 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #154 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 13:26:07 »
All Christians will stand before Christ at His Bema Seat Judgment, and all will receive the Kingdom---some less and some more.

Anyone who would be condemned would not be Christians and therefore would not be before the Bema Seat.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #155 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 14:00:31 »

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   All Christians will stand before Christ at His Bema Seat Judgment, and all will receive the Kingdom---some less and some more.


 How can a servant  of Christ who  is cast into "the outer darkness" be receiving the Lord's kingdom ?




Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #156 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 14:13:12 »

 
Quote from: LivelyStone

   All Christians will stand before Christ at His Bema Seat Judgment, and all will receive the Kingdom---some less and some more.


 How can a servant  of Christ who  is cast into "the outer darkness" be receiving the Lord's kingdom ?





You need to perhaps understand just who is the servant and who is an invited guest in that parable.

No servant of Jesus Christ will ever be cast into 'outer darkness'---we have that assurance!

Offline stevehut

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #157 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 14:17:22 »
I don't understand the premise of this thread.

OF COURSE the Rapture will be selective.  That's the whole point of it, to distinguish sheep from goats.  What am I missing here?

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #158 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 14:23:29 »
I don't understand the premise of this thread.

OF COURSE the Rapture will be selective.  That's the whole point of it, to distinguish sheep from goats.  What am I missing here?



Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #159 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 20:19:59 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone

  You need to perhaps understand just who is the servant and who is an invited guest in that parable.

No servant of Jesus Christ will ever be cast into 'outer darkness'---we have that assurance!


   Matthew 25:30 -  " And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Whose slave is this ?  He is the slave of the master along with two other slaves:

 "For [the kingdom of the heavens is] just like a man about to go abroad, who called his own slaves and delivered to them his possessions.  To one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability. And he went away." ( v.14,15)

 
 "Then he who had received the one talent also came and said, Master, I knew about you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow ... etc."  (v.24)

  Who does this "Master" represent in the parable ? He represents the Lord Jesus.
  This slave of this master is the third slave in the parable.
  The first slave received five talents (v.20).
  The second slave received two talents (v.22).
  The third slave received one talent (v.24)

  You cannot say that the third slave is a false Christian.
   The master is the master of the slaves in the same way:

  "Now after  long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them" (v.19)

   At the second coming, at the end of a long period of time in the church age, Christ will come and settle accounts with His servants who have been granted His posessions. He comes to see what profit they have gained for Him in the "business" His kingdom.

  The useless servant is cast into the outer darkness  for being slothful and not securing a profit for the master, the Lord Jesus.

  The outer darkness must not be eternal perdition because no servant of the Lord Jesus will perish forever. And no servant is saved from eternal perdition because of his works but because of his faith in Christ.

  So the slave cast into the outer darkness must be one who has eternal life and is temporarily disciplined for not producing works profitiable to the business of the Lord's kingdom of the heavens.

  And if you cannot deal with this specific logic, just plain stubburness does nothing for your case that no servant of the Lord will be cast into the outer darkness. In that case you just decide to refuse what the New Testament teaches in Matthew 25:14-30..

  
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 20:27:05 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #160 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 20:57:50 »
There are such things as false converts.

Matthew 7:21-23

True Disciples

 21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #161 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 21:52:17 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


   There are such things as false converts.

Matthew 7:21-23

True Disciples
 21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

  First, there IS such a thing as a FALSE CONVERT. And that is precisely what is dealt with in the parable of the WHEAT and the TARES in Matthew 13:36-43.

  However, that is another issue.

   The issue here is that a SLAVE, a SERVANT of the Lord Jesus will be cast into the outer darkness.  You say that cannot happen. But Matthew 25:30 says it most certainly CAN happen.

   The above paragraph only states that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom of the heavens.  

    But the Bible says "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

   And Romans 10:13 also says "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

   And it says before this "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (v.9)

  Furthermore First Corinthians 12:3b says " ... and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit."

  So the crucial question is then HOW  can Jesus say that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But only those who do the will of His Father will enter ?

  
 To be SAVED is one matter. And to enter into the kingdom of the heavens is another matter.

  The scope of being saved is much wider than the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

   And if we regard the millennial kingdom as the kingdom of the heavens, then some who are saved eternally MAY NOT enter into that 1,000 year reward which preceeds the eternal age.

   This would explain how a servant of the Lord, who was genuinely redeemed, genuinely believes unto salvation, yet was slothful in the kingdom of the heaven matters, will be cast out into the outer darkness.

  So your error is in:

  1.) Assuming that to be saved is exactly equivalent with entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

  2.) Assuming that the outer darkness must be eternal punishment.

  3.) Failing to grasp that the eternal age does not begin until 1,000 years, at least after the Second Coming of Christ.
 

   But some will protest.

   "Wait a minute! Jesus says to some of these who called Lord, Lord "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord .... And then I will declare to them I never knew you, Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matt. 7:22,23)

  Doesn't this prove that they perish forever ?? Doesn't this prove that though they said "Lord, Lord" the Lord never knew them and they must perish in eternal damnation ?

  No, it does not necessarily have to mean that these ones suffer eternal punishment. It can mean that they suffer a dispensational punishment during the 1,000 years of the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens.

  One proof of TEMPORARY punishment during the millennial kingdom is in the teaching of the unforgiving servant. He was turned over to the torturers UNTIL he should pay all that was owed. The word "UNTIL" proves a limit to his punishment.

 And the punishment corresponds to Christ dealing with one of His SAVED saints after His second coming:

 "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would epay all that was owed.

 So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive  his brother from your heart." (Matt. 18:34,35)


  Don't be distracted from the main point here:

 1.) The SAINT was forgiven but turned over to the torturers. "Evil slave, all that dent I forgave you, because you begged me." (v.32)

 2.) The punishment of that unforgiving saint is temporary because it is "UNTIL" a certain point. It is bounded. It is limited. It will come to an end when a certain lesson is learned. It is not a never ending torment. It is not everlasting punishment.

 3.) Since it is at the Lord's coming back it is at least 1,000 years before the age of eternity in the new heaven and new earth. So the punishment cannot last more than 1,000 years. It may last some portion of that time depending on the degree of correction the saints requires.

 4.) "So shall my heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not  forgive his brother from your hearts." proves that the warning of this temporary discipline is directed to Christian BROTHERS.

 Christian brothers are those for whom eternal redemption has been secured in the positive. OTherwise they could not BE Christian brothers.

 5.) If they were not FORGIVEN then they could not be Christian brothers. And they could not be commanded to forgive one another as the heavenly Father has forgiven them.

 6.) It is entirely conceivable that to such a one who needs temporary punishment, Jesus would say "I never knew you. Depart from Me".  Meaning they called Him LORD but He really only knew them as SAVIOR. They did not DO the things the LORD commanded. They may have known Jesus as the Savior by calling on Him as Lord for salvation. But they did not know Him as Lord in terms of doing the Father's will in the Father's way.

 Rather, they worked lawlessly. I never knew you mean that He never allowed them. He never acknowledged their way.

Temporary and dispensational discipline during the millennial kingdom is therefore a valid concern for those who have eternal redemption.  And to have eternal redemption and eternal life is of a wider scope then the narrower scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 Some not entering into the millennial manifestation of the kingdom will be punished temporarily without losing eternal redemption.

  
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 22:04:18 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #162 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 21:59:38 »
I am not a strong proponent of OSAS, because I know that Jesus has an eraser (Revelation 3:5), so I believe that there will be false converts who will be cast out. Not true believers.

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #163 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 22:19:51 »
 
Quote from: LivelyStone


  I am not a strong proponent of OSAS, because I know that Jesus has an eraser (Revelation 3:5), so I believe that there will be false converts who will be cast out. Not true believers.

   You know that a wise worldly judge has a wide scope of things that he or she can do to adjust an offender.

  The offender can get hard time. The offender can get light time. The offender can get community service or a fine.

 With Jesus as the Righteous Judge of His servants, why would we not expect that He can deal with each one of us along a wide spectrum of possibilities ?

  And that is what we see in the New Testament. I am speaking of those for whom eternal redemption has been secured. They will never perish forever.

 However, at the judgment seat of Christ before the start of the millennium Christ can deal with His saints any number of ways as He deems appropriate, along a wide scope of options.

  And the extreme negative side, some could be hurt by the second death. And some could have their names temporily erased from the book of life. These represent the negative extreme side of this large scope.

 I tell you, for some Christians, Jesus may tell them that He wants them to feel what it is like to go to hell for a time. How else could some be "hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11) .

 That is not destroyed eternally but hurt by the second death. It doesn't sound good. And some, on the extreme negative side, He may temporarily erase their names from the book of life (3:5).

 I believe that any names thus erased would be written back in in the new heaven and new earth age of eternity.  And I believe any hurt of the second death, to a Christian, could not be more than the time of the millennial kingdom. And it might be some portion of that time.

  If there were no warning of these things then there would would be no need to consider them to be possible. Since the warnings ARE there and ARE directed to Christians, we have to assume that these possibilities exist during the millennial kingdom.

    

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #164 on: Fri Jun 03, 2011 - 22:31:43 »
I believe that many Christians will lose some rewards, but they do not lose the Kingdom. There will be a great time of regret and remorse. the Bema Seat will not be a continual happy time like some graduation ceremony, although there will be much joy there as well---especially when it is over! We will cast our crowns before Him, and He will dry our eyes!

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #165 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 07:34:52 »


 
Quote from: LivelyStone

I believe that many Christians will lose some rewards, but they do not lose the Kingdom. There will be a great time of regret and remorse. the Bema Seat will not be a continual happy time like some graduation ceremony, although there will be much joy there as well---especially when it is over! We will cast our crowns before Him, and He will dry our eyes!

  A conditiion for enterning the kingdom is for us to humble ourselves as a little child.

  " ... Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no menas enter into the kingdom of the heavens." ( See Matt. 18:1-3)

  So we surely need to turn to Christ for He alone has the humility and meekness needed for the kingdom of the heavens.

  But you have to admit that here Jesus is speaking about entering or not entering. So the realm of the kingdom of the heavens in the millennium is something the disciples will enter or not enter. That is how I read it.

  We have to be as a little humble child to enter. Then we have to continue in the same manner. The way we enter is the way we must continue - as a little child. We must still be facing the same direction.

  To enter we must turn to become as a little child. Then to be greatest we must still be as a little child. Then we must continue on as a little child in childlike humbleness.

 May the Lord have mercy on us to be so.

   

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #166 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 12:39:46 »


 
Quote from: LivelyStone

I believe that many Christians will lose some rewards, but they do not lose the Kingdom. There will be a great time of regret and remorse. the Bema Seat will not be a continual happy time like some graduation ceremony, although there will be much joy there as well---especially when it is over! We will cast our crowns before Him, and He will dry our eyes!

  A conditiion for enterning the kingdom is for us to humble ourselves as a little child.

  " ... Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no menas enter into the kingdom of the heavens." ( See Matt. 18:1-3)

  So we surely need to turn to Christ for He alone has the humility and meekness needed for the kingdom of the heavens.

  But you have to admit that here Jesus is speaking about entering or not entering. So the realm of the kingdom of the heavens in the millennium is something the disciples will enter or not enter. That is how I read it.

  We have to be as a little humble child to enter. Then we have to continue in the same manner. The way we enter is the way we must continue - as a little child. We must still be facing the same direction.

  To enter we must turn to become as a little child. Then to be greatest we must still be as a little child. Then we must continue on as a little child in childlike humbleness.

 May the Lord have mercy on us to be so.

  

He is talking about having the faith of a little child to enter into the Kingdom---in salvation.

If we have Christ, then we already have the Kingdom! He doesn't want us to stay as children, but to grow up and boldly defeat the enemy, and to bring people to Him. We can do all that and remain in Godly humility. We mustn't fixate on childlikeness and fall into a lifestyle of false humility, but we are warriors for the King and we must take up our calling and go out and enlarge the Kingdom for the Lord---while He goes before us, making the rough places plain and the crooked places smooth.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #167 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 15:01:09 »

 That is very good. But the servant of the Lord who at that time is cast into "the outer darkness" cannot be said to be participating in the manifestation of the kingdom in any meaningful way.

 Unless we think of his being disciplined is also being in the kingdom. It is Christ who gave us that teaching. That is that He has the authority to discipline a servant at that time by casting him into the outer darkness.

 

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #168 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 15:16:46 »
Those who find themselves cast out of the Kingdom will be those who have never trusted Jesus Christ with their lives, and have never been regenerated. They are not true servants. Many live in fear of a harsh taskmaster, and that keeps them out of the House of Love. How many times did Jesus say, "Fear not"?

The eyes of God can see the difference between a spiritual sheep and a spiritual goat.

We cannot always detect the tares. They are identical to wheat.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #169 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 16:07:29 »

 LivelyStone,

       We have strayed quite a bit away from the subject of Rapture. If you would like me to open up another thread to converse about the subject now being discussed, I can.

       I think the question is "How wide is the scope of reward and punishment to CHRISTIANS after the second coming of Jesus?"  or something like that.

       You see I cannot believe that the servant cast into the outer darkness represents a false believer. That simply doesn't work.

 And the Lord did not deny that He was indeed a strict business master:

 "And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow. " (Matt. 25:26)

  We do not see Jesus disagreeing with the slothful servant. We do not see Jesus rebuking him for a misunderstanding of His nature in this regard.

 And take notice of the words "And his master answered and said to him ...". It is difficult to interpret this servant then as a false Christian. As the master was with the other two servants he also is to this slothful one.

  Shall we open up a thread to continue this topic ?

      

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #170 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 16:49:58 »

 LivelyStone,

       We have strayed quite a bit away from the subject of Rapture. If you would like me to open up another thread to converse about the subject now being discussed, I can.

       I think the question is "How wide is the scope of reward and punishment to CHRISTIANS after the second coming of Jesus?"  or something like that.

       You see I cannot believe that the servant cast into the outer darkness represents a false believer. That simply doesn't work.

 And the Lord did not deny that He was indeed a strict business master:

 "And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow. " (Matt. 25:26)

  We do not see Jesus disagreeing with the slothful servant. We do not see Jesus rebuking him for a misunderstanding of His nature in this regard.

 And take notice of the words "And his master answered and said to him ...". It is difficult to interpret this servant then as a false Christian. As the master was with the other two servants he also is to this slothful one.

  Shall we open up a thread to continue this topic ?

      

If you wish.