i've looked into the 6th seal lately and think it might actually be the same event as the 7th vial, and also matt 24 and isaiah ch 2, after the tribulation
looking at this verse;
19 And men have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.
20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,
21 To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth.
REV 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,
REV 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken --
REV 6:14 and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;
REV 6:15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,
REV 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'
REV 6:17 because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?
i believe these are the same events at the same time - they both speak of the day of the lord, and concerning this verse;
20 In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,
i cannot see this happening at the start of the tribulation but only when christ comes back and everyone sees him
It is a good point that Isaiah 2 here is obviously similiar to what we read about the Sixth Seal. The overlap in details is undeniable.
My chief [but not only] study Bible, The Recovery Version, has in the side bar to Isaiah 2:10,19,21
for Rev. 6:15 ie. "hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains ... etc."
Now, to your further point is that this Sixth Seal should be the public appearance of Christ when everyone sees Him :
What is SAID by those who hide themselves in the caves is only a record of THEIR reaction. It does not necessarily mean that the time of judgment is right then, but only that terror has made the sinners FEEL that the absolute end has come."And they say [THEY SAY] ... to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide is from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand ?" (Rev. 6:16,17)
What they say is according to the feeling of their consceince. That is the fearing of the coming of the judgment of God. This, however, is not a proclamation of God concerning the exact time of His coming judgment. The nature of this calamity as a general warning, I think, remains.
Footnote 12(2) in the RcV is helpful on the phrase "great earthquake"
in Rev. 6:12. "There will be two calamitites of the shaking and changing of the earth and the hosts in heaven. The first will occur at the beginning of the great tribulation (Joel. 2:30-31), and the second will occur after the great tribulation (Joel 3:11-16; Matt. 24:29-30; Luke 21:25,26). What is covered in the sixth seal is the first calamity. It can be considered not only a warning but also an initiation of the coming great tribulation."
Now, here I am trying to persuade you that this sixth seal is an initiation at the beginning of the great tribulation. In deciding whether you should accept this or not, consider other evidences:
The sixth seal is apparently the ANSWER of God to the cry of the martyred saints underneath the altar in the fifth seal. They cry out for vengence and they are instructed to rest a little longer until the number of more martyrs are completed (6:11). This should tell us that the complete end of the world wide trial is not yet.
Immediately after this reply given to the cry for vengence by the martyred saints of the past, the sixth seal reveals a supernatural shaking of the creation. But remember that final avenging is not yet to occur.
Now the great tribulation commences not with the appearing of supernatural calamties but with the trumpting of trumpets five, six, and seven. The trumpeting of the fifth trumpet which is the FIRST WOE of the THREE WOES, is the beginning of the great tribulation. That last three woes, the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet are the great tribulation proper.
Apparently, there will not be much difference in time between the sixth seal and the first five trumpets (Rev. 9:1-11).
Joel 2:30-31 first mentions the blood of the first and second trumpet.
Joel 2:30-31 also mentions the fire of the first, second, and third trumpets (8:7-10)
Joel 2:30-31 also mentions the smoke of the fifth trumpet (9:1-3).
Joel 2:30-31 then mentions the sun and moon of the sixth seal.
A comparison of Revelation 9:4 and 7:3 indicates that the fifth trumpet occurs very close to the time of the sixth seal.
Compare: Revelation 9:4 - "And it was said to them
[demonic locusts from the fifth trumpet] that they shoyuld not harm the grass of the earth or any green thing or any tree, but men only who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."
Revelation 7:3 - "Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads."
The command to seal the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel is mentioned AFTER the shaking of the earth in the sixth seal. It is also mentioned BEFORE the four angels holding back the tumultuous four winds are allowed to release them to trouble the earth: "And AFTER THIS
[after the vision of the sixth seal] I saw four angles standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on t he earth nor on the sea nor on any tree." (Rev. 7:1)
Before the destructive winds are allowed to damage the earth, the Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, seals the "the slaves of our God"
with the seal of the living God.
These facts reveal that the sixth seal is an initiation of judgment rather than its conclusion. However, the conscience of the sinners and their reaction, compels them to cry out that this moment is the end.
Notice also that there are seven trumpets. None of these judgments touch man's body directly until trumpet number five. The previous trumpets one through four are indeed divine judgments. But their severity is limited as of yet to the physical world. It is at the fifth trumpet, the beginning of the three deadly WOES, that man's body is said to be touched.
We should regard that there are natural calamities, then a great supernatural shaking, and encreasing judgments starting first with the physical world and encreasing to include man's body in the great tribulation.
Here after the opening of the sixth seal and the trumpeting of the first four trumpets, is the announcement of the most severe great triublation: Revelation 8:13 - " And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet !"
The seventh and last trumpet should be understood as after the opening of the sixth seal and a conclusion to the three woes.
Now, though I will not spend much time on it now, the further proof that the trumpeting of the fifth trumpet is the beginning of the great tribulation of three and one half years lies here:
In the fifth trumpet, the star which falls to earth is a personage - "And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heven fallen to the earth, AND TO HIM ... was given the key of the put of the abyss." (Rev. 8:1)
In brief, this "fallen"
star, to whom the key to the abyss is granted, is Satan. Satan is driven down "fallen" to the earth and permitted to release demonic forces loose and the Antichrist also. And the reason we can know that this fallen star is Satan is because Revelation 12 covers the same event from another angle.
Satan is driven out of heaven by Michael and his good angels because of the rapture of a group of overcoming brothers at least 42 months prior to the end of the age. And Satan being driven down to earth is the CAUSE for the great tribulation to commence: "Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)
If you have been raptured to the heavens, there is cause to rejoice. If you are upon the earth there is cause for WOE. And why? Beause the devil has come down to earth knowing that he has only a short time. That short time being 42 months or 1260 days to persecute the rest of the bright woman's seed. That is a time and times and half a time as three and one half years.
This coming down to earth of the devil by the warring of good angels and rapture of the corporate manchild, is also the falling of the star in chapter 9, which star is given the keys to the abyss to release hellish things upon the earth.
The opening of the sixth seal is an initiation
rather than a conclusion of the period of woe. But the sinners upon the earth think that it is the bitter conclusion.
the 6th seal resembles the 7th vial as well;
REV 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath come!'
REV 16:18 and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake came, such as came not since men came upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake -- so great!
REV 16:19 And it came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger,
REV 16:20 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found,
REV 16:21 and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.
I would like to consider this evidence of yours further for now.
For now I would just recall to you that two great shakings and changing of the earth in Joel.
At the beginning of the great tribulation: "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon, into bloo before the great and terrible Day of Jehovah comes."
And at the end of the great tribulation: "Send forth the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; Come, tread, For the winepress is full; The wine vats overflow, For their evil is great.
Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near in the valley of dcision. The sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars withdraw their shining.
And Jehovah will roar from Zion, And from Jerusalem He will utter His voice, and the heavens and the earth will shake. But Jehovah will be a shelter to his people and a stronghold to the children of Israel." (Joel 3:11-16)
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heasven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And at that time the ign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:29,30)
"And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth anguish of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the billows. Men fainting from fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." (Luke 21:25,26)
in rev 7 we see the great multitude in the sanctuary of God
REV 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary,
at the 7th trumpet the sanctuary is opened;
REV 11:19 And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.
but no one is in the sanctuary until the 7 vials are poured out;
REV 15:5 And after these things I saw, and lo, opened was the sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
REV 15:6 and come forth did the seven messengers having the seven plagues, out of the sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:
REV 15:7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;
REV 15:8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.
it seems from here that the multitude in rev 7 is a vision of what happens after the 7 vials are finished, not before
it's also apparent that the trib saints on the sea of glass are not in the sanctuary at that time but they are before the throne, it would seem the sanctuary is opened at the 7th trumpet, out come the angels to pour out the plagues and then the saints enter into the sanctuary
I agree that what is revealed as a unnumbered multitude is indeed AFTER the last judgments. These are those who have come out of the great tribulation, it says. I wrote that I understand this to be any and ALL great trials, tribulations, sufferings of the entire world history.
Of course the real and final tabernacle of God in the universe is God Himself. And Revelation says that He will tabernacle over them: " ... and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them." (7:15b)
This corresponds to the entire New Jerusalem being the tabernacle of God. And God and the Lamb are the temple in the whole city. I would encourage you to read some of the discussion of "The New Jerusalem"
on this End Times Forum.
The fountains of waters of life that the Shepherd lead this multitude to should be God Himself as the Spirit of life. And the entire New Jeruslem has the dimensions of the Holy of Holies for it is a cube: "And the city lies square, and its length and is a s great as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed to a length of twelve thousand stadia; the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal." (Rev. 21`:16)
In this revelation made known to us by "signs"
man finally is brought by God's salvation to be His dwelling place, the human and divine living Holy of Holies. In this living city God and the Lamb are the temple - "And I saw no temple in it, for the Lrd God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. 21:22)
Eventually human history come to a climax after all tribulations. God tabernacles over His redeemed people. The Triune God is the temple in the city and the whole city has the dimensions of the cubic Holy of Holies.
The dimensions of the Holy of Holies, in both the tebernacle and the temple, were equal om ;emgth, breadth, and height (Exo. 26:2-8; 1 Kings 6:20).
The equal dimensions of the city and God and the Lamb being the temple show God and man being united, blended, and in an organic union. Here God tabernacles over His redeemed people and God and His people become a mutual dwelling place.
This may not speak much to timing of raptures. But ultimately through all of God's operation, not only rapture is secured, but the mingling of God and man for the New Jerusalem.