I Expect a Selective Rapture

[Feedmysheep]

  Brethren, in this discussion I will try to help some people to see that we should expect that all Christians will not be taken up in rapture at one time. If we are Christians we should be watching and ready for His sudden coming to steal some away.

  This discussion will be an inoculation against the naive expectation that no matter what the condition of your walk with Christ, you will be raptured at one time with every single Christian on the face of the earth.

   Who knows how many genuine born again believers in Jesus will be left behind in the first rapture. Because I fear that I could be left behind with millions of Christians who were not ready to go with Christ's sudden rapture, I look to His mercy to be prepared in love and in service.

   I will try to be positive and not negative. My hope is that you will find Christ uplifted and glorified and ourselves as His lovers sobered against the stupor of this religious age.

  This discussion is in the spirit of warning, encouragement, soberness, and faith building. I am not interested in doctrinal debate just for its own sake, to be "dead right". I hope to "feed" the spiritual faith of the saints with clear and sober teaching which may be hard to come by today.

   A selective rapture warning as a teaching needs to be tested. I will leave it to the good Berean attitudes to closely examine the matter. May Christ be praised in all our fellowship.

   Christian should not miss the warning tone of Christ's words about a sudden removal from the earth. If this being taken by Him were all that automatic then there would be no need for Him to have a warning tone.

 The warnings do not appear to me to be aimed at the world in general. They appear to be warnings to those who are His. That is they seem to be warnings for those for whom the question of eternal redemption has been settled in the affirmative already. They are forgiven and sealed for eternal life. But are we to be found watching and ready for Him in a moment by moment way?

  If you are a lover of Jesus, don't you sense in your heart that Christ is not to be played with ? You may not have the verses to substantiate this feeling. I will provide you some if you have none. But regardless of that, don't you know deep in your heart that you will  not be able to mock God ?

  I think the life within each Christian, intuitively warns him or her, that this Lord cannot be taken for granted. Before I came to see a selective rapture in Scripture, I knew that there would be some kind of consequence for not taking the charge to live in Him and unto Him, seriously.

 I still have a sobering sense that I need to enjoy Jesus more in order to live Him and be ready for His coming.

 

[larry2]

I also believe that, and it is known as "Ranks in the resurrection."

All will not be ready to be caught up to meet Jesus in the air at His first appearance.

Revelation 3:10 tells us that those patiently keeping His word will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

John sees them in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6 in the midst and round about the throne which Jesus receives in Revelation 4:2. These are priests and kings according to Revelation 5:10, and they shall reign on, or over the earth. 

Next John sees a great multitude caught up out of great tribulation and stand before the throne in Revelation 7:13-15, and they serve God day and night in His temple.

Are we to be ready? Yes. 2 Timothy 2:12 tells us that those who suffer, or endure with Christ will reign with Him. Romans 8:17 says those who suffer, or endure with Christ will be joint heirs with Him.

My thoughts.

[daq]

Contemplate this for a moment:

It is so selective that it is ONE AT A TIME.
Each his own appointment: and "none shall be alone in his appointed times".
Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision!

Acts 2:15-21 KJV
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith G-d, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the L-rd come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the L-rd shall be saved.

Those who do not overcome are given strong delusion, (of self grandeur).
"Alien abductions" - "Angelic encounters" - "Ascended masters"

Those who "overcome" are KILLED in the vision (and "the flesh is dissolved")
And afterwards they know there is no turning back ("remember Lot's wife")
And they "go and sin no more" …

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: G-d knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell:
G-d knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 15:2 KJV
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of G-d.

Our High Priest is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness.
Pray that you many be able to stand before the Son of man ...

Isaiah 14:28-32 KJV
28. In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29. Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the L-rd hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

[Feedmysheep]

 Greetings Dag,

     It is always go to see a brave lover of the word apply the test to an important point.
 I tend to write very very long and verbose posts which I think people do not finish reading. So I am purposely going to attempt shorter replies.

    Do not take this as either rudeness or simplicity. I am just going to attempt to make exchanges concise and manageable.

 ====================================
It is so selective that it is ONE AT A TIME.
Each his own appointment: and "none shall be alone in his appointed times".
Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision!===================================

   Of course this passage concerning multitudes in the valley of decision is more about judgment than about rapture. I believe you are alluding to Joel.

  Christ judging multitudes from the nations upon His coming back to the earth is somewhat a different matter than His removing His redeemed from the earth.

===================================
Acts 2:15-21 KJV
=================================

 This wonderful passage covers from the day of Pentecost through the church age and the sixth seal in the end times.

 Though I believe all this it is not greatly related to the selective rapture. By if you think it is related, you can explain how.

 Some aspects of the Lord's parousia are very visible. Other aspects of it are secretive and without any prominent indication - like a thief coming stealthfully in the night.

 Both matters can be true. And that all the more requires that the lovers of Jesus watch and not be come upon unaware. We should live as if we might appear before the Lord Jesus at any moment. And I think this is one reason why the disciples witnessed Christ's ascension.

 He had already taught them to live by His invisible presence. Now His visible presence is taken up from them but His invisible presence remains. One day His invisible presence will again be joined by His visible presence. So we should live as if He is indeed with us all the days, even to the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20).


==================================
Those who do not overcome are given strong delusion, (of self grandeur).
"Alien abductions" - "Angelic encounters" - "Ascended masters"=================================

  You are quite right that the rebellious will be given strong delusion. Some of the Christians will disappear off of the face of the earth. Perhaps the hard core atheists and followers of Antichrist will boast that they are glad the Christians are gone anyway.

  They will say something outrageous. And they will be deceived by outrageous lies of strong delusion.

  The Bible says that the enemy will wear out the saints of God. I do not want to be here under this kind of devilish wearing out of the Lord's people (Daniel 7:25).  Most of the church will pass through this great tribulation.  A selection of a remnant and minority will be raptured before this Satanic wearing out gets so bad.

 But for the majority of the Christians who are left to pass through this great tribulation, it will also be a time to turn them fully from the world to Jesus Christ. This is the Lord's way to ripen His crop on the earth. On one hand it is a wearing out time of the saints. On the other hand it is a forcing them deeper into Christ for the grace to withstand.

 So all things then work together for God's purpose even for the Christians left to pass through the great tribulation.

===========================================
Those who "overcome" are KILLED in the vision (and "the flesh is dissolved")
And afterwards they know there is no turning back ("remember Lot's wife")
And they "go and sin no more" …

======================================

   What particular passage are you referring to when you speak of those who overcome ?
   It would be a mistake to think all overcoming involves physical death.

   The lesson of Lot's wife is important. It should warn Christians that it is not enough to be physically removed from the place of judgment. God's saints must be removed in heart as well.

 This is a problem with today's superficial teaching of a universal rapture of the whole church at one time. The warning of Jesus to "Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:28-32) is a warning.

 If your heart is still in the world system to be judged, you may not really want to go to be with Christ in the third heavens that strongly. Lot's wife looked behind her and revealed her heart longed for her life in Sodom. Physically, she had been removed. But psychologically she longed for something back there. And the backward glance caused her to become a pillar of salt.

  A pillar of salt is not a symbol of eternal punishment but of a monument of shame. She was not worthy to be burnt up in Sodom. But neither was she ready to accompany her husband to a complete safety. So Lot's wife was in a halfway situation - not judged in Sodom and not completely rescued.

 The Lord warned the church in Philadelphia not to be lukewarm. He would prefer that His people would be either hot or cold. Those who are lukewarm, neither fervent in their love nor against him, are in danger of being spewed out of His mouth (Rev. 3:15,16).

  Lot's wife reminds me of this passage in some regards. Physically, she was out of Sodom. But her heart was not fully removed. It is better that she would have been removed in her heart as well as physically removed.

 Who knows how many Christians will realize that they were foolish to expect to be physically removed from this judged earth when their hearts were so much enjoying it. Christ could not make more room in their hearts because they were too occupied with the world.

  When I have a longing to indulge in the world, this soberness comes over me. I must deepen my enjoyment of Jesus Christ. I must not let the world usurp His preeminence in my heart. Remember Lot's wife. The world is under God's judgment. We must be careful not to be drunken with the indulgence in worldly pleasures to the exclusion of loving Jesus.

  May the Lord grow more and more in us so our heart is looking longingly for Him.

 =========================================
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: G-d knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell:
G-d knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.===========================================

    Brother Paul experienced some kind of rapture. It seems that he kept the matter to himself for 14 years.

 Today if someone experienced what Paul did, being caught away to the third heavens, there would be a book about "10 Minutes in Heaven" on the Christian store bookshelves in two weeks.

 Paul did not push his experience in a sensational way. He did feed the Christians with solid nourishment that we might live godly lives in righteousness. Only at an appropriate time did Paul divulge his sensational experience.

 Paul said that he knew the fear of the Lord he persuaded his churches to mature.

"Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest also in your consciences." (2 Cor. 5:11).

 Paul was redeemed. Paul was forgiven. Paul surely had the gift of eternal life. But he had a sober sense of the fear of the Lord. He labored to persuade men, both believers and nonbelievers to fear the Lord as well as love the Lord.

 Can you say that for Jesus to warn us "Remember Lot's wife" is not an appeal to a sober fear of the Lord ?

  I said that this discussion would be a warning discussion. We have been very stupefied by the teachings of today's degraded Christianity. Our love of Jesus also benefits from our longing that we would not be put to shame at His coming.

 Notice how the Apostle John speaks about Christ's coming:

"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28)

 It is important to realize that this verse is not about a Christian "feeling" ashamed at the Lord's coming. It is a matter of being "put to shame" at His coming. If we do not abide in Him, there is the possibility that we would "be put to shame from Him at His coming".

 This is not mainly a matter of how the Christian will feel but where he might be put. So we want to abide in Him a if He could come at any time.

 Lot's wife did not perish in Sodom. But she was put to shame. She became a kind of monument of shame. We must remember her. And as John exhorts, we should abide in Him, enjoying His spiritual presence, so that we would not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

  Now you spoke of the overcomers on the sea of glass in Revelation 16. At this time I will not speak much about that. But these overcomers have been martyred. And this is towards the end of the great tribulation.

 The selective rapture is before the great tribulation starts. And that, at least with me, is the focus of my writing here.

============================
Revelation 15:2 KJV
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of G-d.

Our High Priest is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness.
Pray that you many be able to stand before the Son of man ...

Isaiah 14:28-32 KJV
28. In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29. Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the L-rd hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.   ================================================
 
 
 Praise the Lord. I have no particular response to this part of your post.

 

[notreligus]

I don't believe that could have any truth in it. 

All Christians are righteous only by the righteousness of Christ.  Christ shed blood was presented to the Father in Heaven.  He sees us all by the blood covering.  There are not varying degrees of blood covering. 

Have you folk read the Book of Hebrews with understanding? 

[Feedmysheep]

 ==========================================
   I also believe that, and it is known as "Ranks in the resurrection."
=========================================

    Larry, my comments may not be on every aspect of your post. My burden, at least, in this discussion, is with the fact that only a minority, a remnant are likely to be ready for the first rapture before the beginning of the great tribulation.

   A selection is in the Lord's hands. No one of us has such confidence to boast that we know we will be taken in the first rapture.

 Rapture really means a kind of ecstatic joy. Strictly speaking, I am concerned if I have joy in the Lord today. If I am caught up in the joy of the Lord today, in all kinds of situations, then I am likely to be in an great ecstatic joy at that rapture time.

 In this sense we Christians can really "practice" the rapture. When you are about to argue with someone, you can turn your heart to the Lord Jesus, and be caught away in the Spirit from your evil temper.

 I realize that I need to be caught away to Jesus many times during the day. I need to be caught away to enjoy the Lord Jesus in many things. In this sense we can practice being caught up by the Lord.

 Then the day will come when we are not only caught up in our heart's turning to Jesus within, but we will be physically caught up as well. So how much we should enjoy turning to the Lord Jesus in the middle of everything today.

 We do not have to make a lot of commotion. Just a little turning to whisper His name may do. Just to say "Lord Jesus, I love You" can rapture us away from ourself to Him.

 I really need to rehearse this rapture matter. I really need to practice being caught up to the Lord in my daily life.

 =====================================
All will not be ready to be caught up to meet Jesus in the air at His first appearance.

Revelation 3:10 tells us that those patiently keeping His word will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world. ====================================

  It is conditional isn't it ?

 If we keep the word of His endurance He will keep us from the hour of trial coming upon the whole world.

 It is as conditional as John 3:16 is conditional. This is why a great rapture involving the whole church is not realistic. It is a sad fact of life that all Christians do not keep the word of His endurance.

 Sometimes you and I do not keep the word of His endurance. So because this is an exhortation and a warning, we need to be sober about it. We should not be befuddled by the superficial rapture teachings of degraded Christianity.

 To be kept from the hour of the trial must mean to be kept from it to the point that we have left the world. The very hour is avoided.

 It is a warning isn't it?
 It is a warning to CHRISTIANS, isn't it ?
 It is an exhortation to the church in Philadelphia. And what the Lord speaks to one church all the churches are to hear.

 Furthermore, he who has an ear is to hear what the Spirit says to the churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. So this conditional exhortation is a related to the first rapture. And it is a matter of "IF" we do this, THEN He will do thus and such - conditional.

 The condition being fulfilled will cause the promise to be fulfilled. If the condition is not fulfilled, I fear that some will not be kept out of the hour of worldwide trial.

 And the majority of the church on earth will have to pass through the hour of trial, the great tribulation.  But this is to learn lessons which should have been learned previously. So all things work out for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
 


 ============================================
John sees them in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6 in the midst and round about the throne which Jesus receives in Revelation 4:2. These are priests and kings according to Revelation 5:10, and they shall reign on, or over the earth.  
========================================

 That is right. The rapture and stay in heaven is temporary.

 We should never give the impression that God is going to give up this earth altogether to His enemy. The rapture is a strategic move of spiritual warfare. And the stay in the third heavens is temporary for He has a kingdom to establish on the earth.

===============================
Next John sees a great multitude caught up out of great tribulation and stand before the throne in Revelation 7:13-15, and they serve God day and night in His temple.
============================================

 I regard this vision of Revelation 7:13-15 as a general encouragement that God will preserve all His saints through all tribulation of all the ages.

 This vision of a multitude which no one could number, I think, is an inserted vision place just before the severe judgments to come. All of God's saints will be preserved one way or another.

 The words "These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" is indicative of the entire body of God's saints in all ages.

  You know that after the 1000 years God will dissolve the old heaven and old earth. And we expect a new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells. At that time all of the saved from all ages of the old heaven and old earth will participate in the New Jerusalem of God living in man, and spreading His living tabernacle over them.

 I do not regard the inserted vision of Revelation 7:13-15 as a vision of the rapture of the whole church before the great tribulation. I regard it as a general vision of encouragement that all of God's saints will be preserved through the ages to participate in eternity and its blessings.

 It is a general vision of encouragement inserted just before the unveiling of the severe judgments on mankind to follow in the blowing of the seven trumpets.
  

 =========================================
Are we to be ready? Yes. 2 Timothy 2:12 tells us that those who suffer, or endure with Christ will reign with Him. Romans 8:17 says those who suffer, or endure with Christ will be joint heirs with Him.
=======================================

 May the Lord grant us grace to enjoy Him through all circumstances, to praise Him in all things, and to endure in His presence by the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

 

[larry2]

I don't believe that could have any truth in it. 

All Christians are righteous only by the righteousness of Christ.  Christ shed blood was presented to the Father in Heaven.  He sees us all by the blood covering.  There are not varying degrees of blood covering. 

Have you folk read the Book of Hebrews with understanding? 
 

Would you agree that there are different degrees of reward based upon our Christian walk? For instance why are only two of the seven churches given crowns in Revelation Chapters Two and Three? Their righteousness is based only on the blood of Christ, but their reward is not.

Why are some saints kept from tribulation, and others come out of it?

Thanks.

[larry2]

I tend to write very very long and verbose posts which I think people do not finish reading. So I am purposely going to attempt shorter replies.

   Just what in the world were you attempting to tell me on your last reply? I think I lost track somewhere between the 10,000th and the 20,000th character.

[Feedmysheep]

 =============================================
  I don't believe that could have any truth in it.  

All Christians are righteous only by the righteousness of Christ.  Christ shed blood was presented to the Father in Heaven.  He sees us all by the blood covering.  There are not varying degrees of blood covering.  

Have you folk read the Book of Hebrews with understanding?  
 ==========================================
  
 
   None of what I have written would be a cause not to believe the book of Hebrews. It would not be a cause to disbelieve in the power of Christ's blood to cleanse us from all sins.

 Nothing I shared would negate His faithfulness or undermine that He is our righteousness.

  And it is a very good point you make that there are not degrees of blood covering. I completely agree. But this matter of readiness for His parousia is not about eternal redemption. Not being found ready for His coming does not mean the loss of eternal redemption.

     In the book of Hebrews you have at least FIVE warnings to those who are eternally redeemed. If there was no need for exhortation to come forward to the holy of holies then there would be no need for warning in Hebews.

 The book of Hebrews, which is really strong on eternal redemption, also shows a Father who disciplines His children. Am I right ?

 The book of Hebrews which is so solid on eternal redemption ALSO warns not to neglect so great a salvation. And he is talking to those for whom eternal redemption has been solved.

 The book of Hebrews which is so full of the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus, also exhorts those eternally redeemed that without subjective holiness no one will see the Lord.  Am I right ?

  So I think we have to be enlarged. And judicial redemption and eternal redemption does not make it not necessary for the believers to watch and be ready for the thief in the night. If not then the Lord would not have exhorted us with a warning tone.

 If our rapture was automatic because we are eternally redeemed, then what would be the need to be watchful ?

 Let me break it down to you this way. It is a fact of life, sad but true, that some born again and eternally redeemed brothers and sisters might be in a bed of fornication. If you think that they will be raptured from a bed of fornication to be co-kings with Christ because they are eternally redeemed, you are being naive.

 The audience of the Apostle John were eternally redeemed. Yet John exhorts them to abide in Him. He exhorts them to confess their sins so that the blood of Jesus might cleanse them from all sin.

 This is forgiveness for moment by moment daily fellowship. Isn't this passage spoken to those who are under the redeeming blood of Christ ?

"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28)


 Here is the issue. Can I be eternally redeemed by Christ, positionally justified before Him, and possess the gift of eternal life, yet not be abiding in Him ?

 Can I be eternally redeemed yet somehow be put to shame from Him at His coming ? I think you have to answer that that possibility exists.

 Please tell me how this eternally redeemed brother was dealt with by Christ in First Corinthians 3:15. How was this brother saved? He is saved yet through some scathing discipline and loss.

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.  If anyone's work is consumed, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE."  (my emphasis)

 Does the redeeming blood of Christ's redemption make this one exempt from discipline? Does it make him exempt from suffering loss ? He is indeed saved, yet so as through fire.

  Your reply is eagerly awaited here.

[Feedmysheep]

 Larry. I'm chuckling too.

 

[Feedmysheep]

 Poster notreligus is bold and faithful.

 Step up now and closely examine this selective rapture matter. It should be examined.

 Good job notreligus. Don't let me get away that easy now.

  

[daq]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: G-d knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell:
G-d knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 ===========================================

    Brother Paul experienced some kind of rapture. It seems that he kept the matter to himself for 14 years.

 Today if someone experienced what Paul did, being caught away to the third heavens, there would be a book about "10 Minutes in Heaven" on the Christian store bookshelves in two weeks.

Hi Feedmysheep
Anyone who had truly been through such an event would surely know better than to try and sell their "story" for a profit. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living YHWH and his right hand Priest and Son. Those who sell books on shelves at a price are selling things sacrificed to their idols, ($20 Illuminati-spot "Eye-of-Horus" Greenback-Bucks per serving). And those who eat such things need to be careful they are not eating things sacrificed to idols or fornicating with Jezebel, (Rev.2:12-24).

1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV
1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of G-d which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over G-d's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua!

[BroBrent]

I think the theory of a selective rapture is the same as selective Christianity. Non existent.

The problem is rightly dividing the scripture as the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

[Feedmysheep]

I think the theory of a selective rapture is the same as selective Christianity. Non existent.

The problem is rightly dividing the scripture as the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

   Greetings BroBrent.

   You can rightly divide this scripture for us and demonstrate.

   "But take heed to yourselves lest perhaps your hearts be weighed down with debouchery and drunkeness and the anxieties of life, and the day come upon you suddenly as a snare.

 For it will come in upon all those dwelling on the face of all the earth.

   But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:34-36)

  1.) Suppose the disciple does not take heed to himself or herself. In rightly dividing the scripture do you think this would have any effect on "escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" ?

  2.) Suppose the Christian in the last days does become weighed down with debouchery and drunkeness and the anxieties of life ? In dividing the scripture do you think this defeat could have any effect on the disciple's qualifying to "escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man"?

 3.) Suppose the Christian fails to "be watchful at every time" ? Would you think that has any effect on the disciple's qualifying to "prevail to escape all these things which are about to come to pass and stand before the Son of Man" ?

   How do you divide the scriptures in this question ?

 4.) Suppose a brother or sister in Christ is defeated rather then prevailing ? Do you think this would have any effect on the saint's qualifying to "escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" ?

  5.) The Lord's exhortation is to "Take heed to yourselves ...".  Suppose I decide that I do not want to take heed to myself ? Suppose I want to take heed to indulge in the love of the world and in the sins of the flesh.

 In your dividing the scripture, do you feel that this failure would have absolutely no effect on my readiness to "prevail to escape" ?

  I mean, in your rightly dividing the scripture, do none of these exhortations or warnings have any consequence upon the Christian's qualification to "escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" ?      

 Obedience or nonobedience has no consequences on God's selection that the prevailing saints escape and stand before the Son of Man ?

 Is that how you rightly divide this passage ? It makes no difference to the Lord's action to select those worthy to escape the things to happen and stand before Him ?

 

[Joyfullee]

Why is one "watching" for Jesus?

Because they are aware that it's getting close to the time for His return and they (who are alive) being resurrected.

Those who claim to be believers, but are not watching, are not watching....why?

Because they're more interested in themselves and the world.

Believer's alive during the tribulation will be tried and tested.  It's going to be a rough time and one needs to be in close communion and obedience to God at all times.

Those pretenders are the ones who will fall under the great delusion.

The true and the false will be revealed for who they truly are through their own actions/choices.

The true believers will be "watching."

Thinking or believing that there are multiple "raptures" or "resurrections" is a false view because God's Word clearly tells us that there will be two only.

What one is actually saying in that view is that God is an elitist and that is not true.

We are all saved by the blood that Christ shed for us and that is our entrance into eternal life.  By saying there are different or several ranks of resurrections based on our actions/nonactions, wrong or sinful actions is not true.  Either a person is truly saved, born again, or he/she is not.  There are many stages of spiritual growth, and there will be "baby" Christians at that time as there always is.

The giving out of rewards, once we are all there, is a horse of a different color.

[Joyfullee]

Quote Feedmysheep:  "I mean, in your rightly dividing the scripture, do none of these exhortations or warnings have any consequence upon the Christian's qualification to "escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" ?"


To "escape" does not mean to be raptured out of this world as the pre-tribber's believe.

It means to be protected from, as one is going through.

I also don't believe the word "qualifications" has anything to do with it.  Once again, either a person is born again or is not.  This is a time of separating, revealing to oneself, if one is true or false.  A true believer will be trusting God through it all and watching for Jesus's return.  These warnings are for the self-deceiver's who are just playing or pretending or claiming to be something that they are not.

 

   

[fish153]

I think the theory of a selective rapture is the same as selective Christianity. Non existent.

The problem is rightly dividing the scripture as the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

BroBrent---

I totally agree.  The church is the "body of Christ" and we are all parts of one another.  Will Christ (The Head) return and rapture a foot, but leave a hand behind?  We are only "overcomers" because of what Christ has done.  "Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes Jesus is the Christ the Son of God?" (1 John 5).

The church is not saved due to it's works---neither will the church be raptured according to works.  Paul says "We shall ALL be changed...."  

There will indeed be rewards AFTER THE RAPTURE takes place at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  But the rapture itself is of the redeemed---saved by Grace---and ALL who have been born-again shall be raptured.

[Feedmysheep]

To "escape" does not mean to be raptured out of this world as the pre-tribber's believe.

It means to be protected from, as one is going through.

I also don't believe the word "qualifications" has anything to do with it.  Once again, either a person is born again or is not.  This is a time of separating, revealing to oneself, if one is true or false.  A true believer will be trusting God through it all and watching for Jesus's return.  These warnings are for the self-deceiver's who are just playing or pretending or claiming to be something that they are not.  

   Please don't call me a "pre-tribber" in that way.  Labels like this introduce strawmen arguments and other misunderstandings. You may say that I am advocating a pre-tribulation rapture. Partially, selectively, I am.    


 It is possible that "escape" in Luke 21:37 does not have to mean taken physically off the earth.

  However, it could mean that. And if it did, to be TAKEN is itself a kind of victorious PREVAILING.

" ... that you would prevail to escape all these things"

  If we are not too dogmatic about it, if rapture IS meant, it is not running away with your tail between your legs. It is PREVAILING TO ESCAPE. It would be an indication, not of defeat, but of ENOCH like victory - prevailing.  

If it does mean rapture, ( and it could ), it means victoriousness, prevailing through the Lord's bountiful grace.

  In other words, Luke 21:17 in any understanding, has to mean overcoming through the grace of Christ.

  Now for some years I understood "prevail to escape ... stand before the Son of Man"  as you do. Then eventually I realized that it could be either way - rapture or passing through. And here is why:


 1.)  If the whole church is raptured pre-tribulation, this verse implies that the whole church has prevailed to escape.

 2.) If part of the church is raptured pre-tribulation, it still implies that this PART has prevailed to escape.

 3.) If the part that did not prevail wakes up to notice some of their brethren, like Enoch, are no longer found, the verse still implies these unfortunate ones have to prevail to escape. They have to get with the program, so to speak.

 4.) If the whole church passes through the great tribulation and there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, the verse still indicates that they had to prevail to escape.


 So, just looking at the exhortation itself, it could be understood validly a number of ways. Its content is more moral than anything else.

 Secondly, to stand before the Son of Man can mean stand before Him up in Heaven, near the earth in the clouds, or on the earth when He comes down.

  Verse 27 said "Then they will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

  But Revelation 19 Christ coming down to battle with an army of redeemed saints.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True etc,  ... And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (See 19:11-13).

 And this army is a bridal army. Her wedding garment is also her fighting garment:

"Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

 And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean, for the fine linen is the rigtheouesnesses [sic]  of the saints." (19:7,8)

 The bridal army is accompanying the Lord DOWN. So it would be the case that at least some stood before the Son of Man in heaven and accompany the Son of Man coming down as His bridal army.

Luke 21:37 therefore definitely could mean to be raptured to heaven, having escaped the great tribulation because of faithful watching, and standing before the Son of Man in heaven. And then accompanying Him as His bridal army at the end of the great tribulation.


 And it is exceedingly logical that if Luke 21:37 is an exhortation, some will heed and some will not, or will heed late. And in that case some heeders would be SELECTED to be raptured pre-trib to stand before the Son of Man in heaven.

Jude 14 - " ... behold the Lord came with myriads of His saints "

 "Myriads of His saints" does not have to mean ALL of his saints. Myriads of His saints could mean a SELECTION of qualified saints from all to be a myriad.

 Lastly, a selection of His saints is accompanying Him in chapter 19 is very strongly implied in Revelation 17:14 :

 These will make war with the Lamb;, [at the battle of Armegeddon (Rev. 19) ] and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful [will also overcome them]... "    

  The accompanying army with the Son of Man are not only CALLED and CHOSEN. They have added to this "AND FAITHFUL".

  To their election they have added being FAITHFUL.

 IE. You who are saved by the Lord's grace, add something of  your response to this great mercy and fortune of God - "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to come to pass and stand before the Son of Man".

 Every exhortation to Christians implies a response of faithfulness or a possibility of neglect or tardiness.

  

[Joyfullee]

To "escape" does not mean to be raptured out of this world as the pre-tribber's believe.

It means to be protected from, as one is going through.

I also don't believe the word "qualifications" has anything to do with it.  Once again, either a person is born again or is not.  This is a time of separating, revealing to oneself, if one is true or false.  A true believer will be trusting God through it all and watching for Jesus's return.  These warnings are for the self-deceiver's who are just playing or pretending or claiming to be something that they are not.  

   Please don't call me a "pre-tribber" in that way.  Labels like this introduce strawmen arguments and other misunderstandings. You may say that I am advocating a pre-tribulation rapture. Partially, selectively, I am.    
   

I meant no harm nor degradation.  I was just being blunt, straightforward, no bells and whistles, which is the way I usually am. 

[Feedmysheep]

To "escape" does not mean to be raptured out of this world as the pre-tribber's believe.

It means to be protected from, as one is going through.

I also don't believe the word "qualifications" has anything to do with it.  Once again, either a person is born again or is not.  This is a time of separating, revealing to oneself, if one is true or false.  A true believer will be trusting God through it all and watching for Jesus's return.  These warnings are for the self-deceiver's who are just playing or pretending or claiming to be something that they are not.  

 I see. Sorry.

 
   Please don't call me a "pre-tribber" in that way.  Labels like this introduce strawmen arguments and other misunderstandings. You may say that I am advocating a pre-tribulation rapture. Partially, selectively, I am.    
   

I meant no harm nor degradation.  I was just being blunt, straightforward, no bells and whistles, which is the way I usually am. 

[mark s]

Selective rapture?

Paul said, "we who are alive and remain", which is inclusive.

Where's the loophole?

[daq]

Paul said, "we who are alive and remain", which is inclusive.

Where's the loophole?

So far "loopholes" are the only thing abounding in this thread. All doctrines of the NT flow from the teachings of the Master. If we take the writings of Paul or any other NT writer in the Light of what things Christ spoke then we should not go astray. However, those do generally err who build upon NT Epistles without conformity and compliance to the Word of Christ given in the four Gospel Books. Paul warns of this when he clearly states that his work as a wise "masterbuilder" is based upon the ONLY foundation, which is already laid, which is Christ. Those who take the writings of Paul and make something outside of what Christ says are probably going to suffer loss, (1Cor.3:12-15).

1 Corinthians 3:10-11 KJV
10. According to the grace of G-d which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Yeshua strongly implies by parable that each servant would be brought before him INDIVIDUALLY. Then at the end comes the slaying of his enemies, (the parable of the wheat and the tares also applies to this final gathering of the wicked). Yeshua spoke the following parable just before going up to Jerusalem "because they thought that the Kingdom of G-d should immediately appear." Did the NT writers of the various Epistles need to rewrite the passage for us? Not if we love Yeshua and his doctrine and Word.

The Master of Parables makes the following points extremely clear:
#1) He speaks of himself as the Nobleman.
#2) He goes away to receive a Kingdom, and to return.
#3) He hands out responsibilities and commands, (occupy-trade till I come)
#4) He returns and calls each servant to come before him.
#5) His servants come before him individually, (it is personal).

Luke 19:11-28 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of G-d should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, L-rd, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, L-rd, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, L-rd, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21. For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24. And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25. (And they said unto him, L-rd, he hath ten pounds.)
26. For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28. And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

EACH IN HIS APPOINTED TIME!
And the Kingdom of YHWH includes all believers:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of G-d should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of G-d cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of G-d is within you.

Luke 22:28-30 KJV
28. Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 6:31-33 KJV
31. Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32. (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33. But seek ye first the kingdom of G-d, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua

[pointmade]

Fish: "There will indeed be rewards AFTER THE RAPTURE takes place at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  But the rapture itself is of the redeemed---saved by Grace---and ALL who have been born-again shall be raptured."


If the "rapture" (never have found the term in Scripture) is to be "as in the days of Noe were," (Matthew 24:37)
I note those "taken" were the ones who did not enter into the ark. (v. 39).
Noe and his family were left or "saved" from the flood.

Jesus said "Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Commentators are many who believe the one "taken" is the save one. Jesus did not say this.

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
When considering Jesus' teaching in Matthew 13:40 it is the "tares" that are "gathered and burned in the fire."

Keep in mind what Jesus said about the tares of Matthew 13:24-30.
"The tares would be gathered FIRST to burn."

According to Jesus' teaching you may want to reconsider being "raptured" FIRST.

To be specific, I note in Matthew 25:31-46 when the King gathers all nations, and separates them one from another,
as a shepard divides his sheep from his goats.
It is the "righteous" who inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world:
It is the "unrighteous who shall GO AWAY into everlasting punishment."
Interesting that the separation of the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT a parable...

According to Paul, the "righteous" are those "IN CHRIST" and heirs according to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).
A "promise" will trump a subjective "rapture" every time.
Are you "in Christ"? or, will you be on the outside as those "taken away FIRST by the flood in the days of Noe?

[Feedmysheep]

Selective rapture?

Paul said, "we who are alive and remain", which is inclusive.

Where's the loophole?

    Small details are not necessarily "loopholes".
    In the word of God sometimes very important truths had their key of understanding turning on a phrase or even a single word.


    Yes, I agree that it is inclusive. Brother Paul is departed and waiting in Paradise (under the earth), he  speaks inclusively as "we ... who are living, who are left remaining" in an inclusive way.

    Strictly speaking, Paul would not be, in the future, one living. But he can speak at that moment of time in the past, inclusively on behalf of the whole church.

    The words "left remaining" could mean that some were taken already.  The command and trumpet spoken of in the previous verse are exceedingly public. Who can miss such a universal and grand announcement.

 Yet we were also told that the Lord's parousia (coming, or presence) would definitely have a sudden and secretive aspect. And the wise Christian better be watching and vigilant.  Ie. "I must live as if my Lord may come for me at any moment."

  Don't the words "Firstfruits" and "Harvest" indicate timing, readiness, maturity for reaping ?
 
  Couldn't there be a taking of Firstfruits and those who are remaining constitute a Harvest ?   See Revelation 14.


 The Apostle Paul likened the Christian church to a farm, or cultivated land upon which crops are growing. The crop is God's divine life growing within saved sinners who have become believers.

" ... you [the church in Corinth] are God's cultivated land, God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9)

 The Christians are to be on a farm, on cultivated land which is for the growing of God's life within man. We must take heed to this growth of Christ within us. The laborers of God plant and water. And God gives the growth.

 But we Christians must give the cooperation. Am I right ? Look at the passage in fuller context.


"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth.

  So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth.

 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land, God's building."  

  Growth in spiritual life is indicated. Building up together in love is implied. And therefore, in the end times, early maturity and latter maturity is a possibility with each of us Christians.  And therefore there could be Firstfruits which ripen early, and Harvest which ripens latter.

 And THEREFORE, there could be those alive raptured and those alive and left remaining raptured. Indeed, Revelation chapter 14 shows that.  I would caution myself and all Christians:

 The words Firstfruits and Harvest strongly imply TIMING. And the Old Testament typology that furnishes the backround for Revelation 14 revealed timing. 

    

[Feedmysheep]

So far "loopholes" are the only thing abounding in this thread. All doctrines of the NT flow from the teachings of the Master. If we take the writings of Paul or any other NT writer in the Light of what things Christ spoke then we should not go astray. However, those do generally err who build upon NT Epistles without conformity and compliance to the Word of Christ given in the four Gospel Books. Paul warns of this when he clearly states that his work as a wise "masterbuilder" is based upon the ONLY foundation, which is already laid, which is Christ. Those who take the writings of Paul and make something outside of what Christ says are probably going to suffer loss, (1Cor.3:12-15).

 Paul's warning also flows from the teaching of the Master. The quotes I have used from the epistles all are the word of God, the word flowing from the Master.

 We could still make mistakes. But there is nothing I have written about the epistles that doesn't flow from the words of Jesus in the four Gospels.


 

Yeshua strongly implies by parable that each servant would be brought before him INDIVIDUALLY. Then at the end comes the slaying of his enemies, (the parable of the wheat and the tares also applies to this final gathering of the wicked). Yeshua spoke the following parable just before going up to Jerusalem "because they thought that the Kingdom of G-d should immediately appear." Did the NT writers of the various Epistles need to rewrite the passage for us? Not if we love Yeshua and his doctrine and Word.

 Brother, you spoke very well about the judgment seat of Christ for the believers.

 This is related but perhaps somewhat aside from the rapture. It is true that word "rapture" is not in the Scripture.

 But who can object to its meaning ?

 Do you like how the NT writers wrote of "God" without a fear of uttering the Name ? Is the writing of God, instead of G_d, to you according to the firm foundation of Christ in the NT ?

  Does the practice of not daring to write "God" but only "G_d" flow from anything Yeshua taught in the four Gospels? I thought your way of writing "G_d" reminded me of an Old Testament scribe's sacred practice. Or it is like a Judiastic scribe's sacred practice.

  Anyway, I will be mostly talking about rapture, though the judgment seat of Christ is not totally unrelated to that probably.

  

[Feedmysheep]

 Pointmade, my comments on your comments to fish:

 =============================================
If the "rapture" (never have found the term in Scripture) is to be "as in the days of Noe were," (Matthew 24:37)
I note those "taken" were the ones who did not enter into the ark. (v. 39).
Noe and his family were left or "saved" from the flood.=============================================

  Some see it that way. The ones taken, they understand, are the ones taken off to be judged by God.

 I don't think this is true. The disciples asked Jesus about WHERE these ones would be taken.

"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.

 And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord ? And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:36,37)

  Some MSS omit verse 36. But I think the where is the battle of Armegeddon. And the corpse represents the enemy of Christ, the Antichrist. Antichrist will be the stinking corpse of death to God.

 The birds of prey swooping down on the corpse, are the victorious army accompanying Christ to do final battle with Antichrist and his armies. This is revealed in Revelation 19 and also in 17.

 Where the vigilant saints are taken is to be with Christ in His victorious defeat of the Antichrist. Whereever that enemy of God is, Christ and His army will be gathered.

"And they answered and said to Him, Where Lord? And He said to them, Where the body [or corpse] is, there also will the vultures be gathered together."

  Those with Christ in the battle of Armageddon are the ones called and chosen and also faithful (Rev. 17:14).

  And in Revelation 19 the army accompanying the Lord to fight against Antichrist are clothed in bright and pure linen representing "the righteous actions" or "the righteousnesses of the saints."

 Justification by faith is the righteous standing each believer has for eternal redemption and eternal life. This is the gift of righteousness. This is not of works but of grace.

 But the qualifying garment of the Lord's army of saints is the plural RIGHTEOUSNESSES. That is the specific righteous deeds, actions, that flowed out of their living by Christ in their daily walk.

 If the Lord Jesus warned His saved believers to watch vigilantly for His sudden coming, to fail to heed Him is a moral defeat, even though that one is eternally redeemed. And to take sober heed to watch would be a righteous response.

 So it stands to reason that the one taken, is taken off to be rewarded. That reward is NOT eternal life or eternal redemption, which is a gift in grace. It could be a reward to accompany Christ to the final battle destroy the Antichrist.

 Then where the body of Antichrist is the vultures of God's army, are gathered for a feast of victory. And to that place the watching one was taken.

 ====================================================
Jesus said "Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Commentators are many who believe the one "taken" is the save one. Jesus did not say this.

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
When considering Jesus' teaching in Matthew 13:40 it is the "tares" that are "gathered and burned in the fire."

Keep in mind what Jesus said about the tares of Matthew 13:24-30.
"The tares would be gathered FIRST to burn."[/i][/color]=================================================

   I don't believe that the Lord means that the two should WATCH to be left. Rather they should WATCH to be taken.

  One watches and one does not, in His example. Morally, I have no disagreement that we should WATCH that we are not negatively judged by God. And if anyone is edified by this kind of understanding, I don't think there is any harm.

 Should I be watching to be raptured?
 Should I be watching to not be taken off and killed by God ?

  Either "watching" can be beneficial. But I think the Lord meant to watch to be positively taken suddenly. And eventually, that taken one would be rewarded to accompany Christ as one of His predatory birds, to swoop down with Him on the defeated army of Antichrist:

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord or lords and King of kings; and those who arewith Him, the called and chosen and faithful, [will also over come them].  (Rev. 17:14 Recovery Version)

==============================================
According to Jesus' teaching you may want to reconsider being "raptured" FIRST.

To be specific, I note in Matthew 25:31-46 when the King gathers all nations, and separates them one from another,
as a shephard divides his sheep from his goats.
It is the "righteous" who inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world:
It is the "unrighteous who shall GO AWAY into everlasting punishment."
Interesting that the separation of the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46 is NOT a parable...
=================================================

  After Christ defeats Antichrist, He sets up the throne of His glory in the Holy Land.

  Then those Gentiles who are left alive from the great tribulation, He will judge.
 Some will be transferred into the millennial kingdom. And some will be sent to the eternal fire which is the eternal judgment prepared for the devil and his angels.

  Could the Lord have mean to be watchful not to be taken off to be gathered with the goats to be sent to eternal damnation?

   I don't believe that the one left is necessarily left to be eternally damned. But they are left to be disciplined, to learn a lesson. The exhortation is to the disciples to WATCH.

   Concerning the church in Sardis, the Lord's exhortation:

 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not WATCH, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (Rev. 3:3)

 What was said to one church was to be heeded by all the churches. Whoever has an ear to hear is to hear what the Spirit speaks to the churches. If we do not watch, there is the possibility that the Lord Jesus will come upon us as a thief and we will be caught unaware.

  This exhortation is to Christians, for whom the question of eternal redemption has been settled in the affirmative. They shall never perish.

 But that does not mean they could never be disciplined or rewarded.

 One Christian is taken to be rewarded with that rapture and prize of being the called and chosen and faithful to accompany Christ in His final victory over Antichrist. And one unwatchful Christian is disciplined by not being taken.

  ===============================================
According to Paul, the "righteous" are those "IN CHRIST" and heirs according to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).
A "promise" will trump a subjective "rapture" every time.
Are you "in Christ"? or, will you be on the outside as those "taken away FIRST by the flood in the days of Noe?================================================

   If the rapture was not related to something of subjective and inward vigilance, why would the Lord exhort us to watch.

 Two are grinding at a mill. Inwardly, there is a difference. That is very subjective. I can work at the office with my mind set on the spirit. I can be before the Lord inwardly. Or I can be working and have my mind fully on the flesh, the world, myself, and even my secret sins.

  Two men working in the field. Both could be Christians. Both have eternal life. But there are exhortations to walk by the Spirit. It is not an automatic walk simply because we were born again.

 Do you know any Christians who do not like to walk by the Spirit? I do.
 Sometimes I don't walk by the Spirit. Maybe sometimes you neglect to walk by the Spirit.
 
 Can two Christians working in a field have a subjective problem with the Lord?
 One can have forgiven a recent offense. And one can be bitterly holding a grudge against the Lord's command that we forgive one another. Isn't that subjective?

 Can I be watching for Jesus to suddenly take me if I am nourishing a bitter unforgiven offense ? I would say not too well. But if I fear God and say to myself as I am working:

 " I need to forgive that brother from my heart. The Lord taught me to do so. I fear the Lord and love the Lord. He may come at any moment. I may even meet the Lord tonight as I am driving home and get into an accident, God forbid. I want to watch for the Lord here."

 That is subjective. Outwardly, maybe no one in the world knows what is going on. But Jesus Christ knows what is going on. And I need to watch because He may come at any moment.

  Sure, I am justified positionally by the Lord's finished work. Christ is my righteousness. But I need "much more" to be saved in His life.

"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Romans 5:10)


 Yes, we Christians have been reconciled. But we need much more of the much more. We need to be saved in the whole realm of His indwelling life, having been reconciled to God. We need much more the subjective salvation in His life by watching and walking in the Holy Spirit.

  

[pointmade]

Feedmysheep: " A selective rapture warning as a teaching needs to be tested. I will leave it to the good Berean attitudes to closely examine the matter. May Christ be praised in all our fellowship."

Millennialism is in inherent in all theories on the second coming of Christ. The "thousand year" reign of Christ upon the earth at some time or other is indispensable to the millennialist way of thinking.

I know that all millennialst do not agree on millennialism in all the tenets and I can understand why! I cannot understand why they believe any of them!
I have read the theories of the pioneers of Millennialism: William Miller, "the time setter," Mrs. Ellen White, founder of Seventh Day Adventism, Russell and Rutherford of Jehovah Witness persuasion, Henry W. Armstrong, supposed affiliated with the Seventh Day church of God, Carl Scofield and his bible, John R. Rice, Baptist, R.H. Bolls, church of Christ (non-instrumental), and many, many others. For sure, one thing they have in common now: all are dead!

Millennialism is another name for denominationalism; its origin is from men.
I know many who have heard the knock on the door to find standing there with their "Watchtower Society" literature in hand.
They distribute and support the "signs of the times." An odd thing about these 'signs of the times" is that they apply to ANY AND ALL TIMES.

The men and women, smiling at your door are labeled as "advance notice" of the "sign readers" and the end of the present order of things.
In general, there have been at least THREE major wars involving America, and the millennialist have applied the signs of the times to each of these, declaring that each one was the LAST ONE.

Paul, Peter, John, and other inspired men have said nothing about the "signs of the times," yet everyday we get a report from John Hagee, Pat Robertson,
Hal Lindsay and those of lessor light predicting: "this is it."  The Middle East is on fire and the doomday slayers are running rabid.
Why, some are naming the "antichrist." I believe I even heard the names of Gadhafi and Charlie Sheen mentioned.

Sad, but true, these men have become wealthy with their "doomsday" scenarios.
Books and videos fill the book stores of end time prophets.
You can find old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions--gravestones for prophecy "scholars" long-since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of archaeological disgrace by their own "keys" at most garage and rumage sales today!

 

[Feedmysheep]

Millennialism is in inherent in all theories on the second coming of Christ. The "thousand year" reign of Christ upon the earth at some time or other is indispensable to the millennialist way of thinking.
 

 Pointmade, you always have a point.
 But this is launching into another discussion that I think I will hold off on.

 I need focus. The field now is made a little too wide. But I have nothing to do with Mary Baker Eddy, Rutherford, Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't want to get into appearing to defend teachings which I do not hold.

 Can you narrow your objection down a little? I am still thinking of your tares and wheat point. The tares gathered first. I think it was a valid point.

 I have not yet said too much in response to the wheat and tares matter. Are you interested ?

[Feedmysheep]

 =======================================
  Sad, but true, these men have become wealthy with their "doomsday" scenarios.
=======================================

  Sorry. I won't take guilt by association as a correction here.

[daq]

So far "loopholes" are the only thing abounding in this thread. All doctrines of the NT flow from the teachings of the Master. If we take the writings of Paul or any other NT writer in the Light of what things Christ spoke then we should not go astray. However, those do generally err who build upon NT Epistles without conformity and compliance to the Word of Christ given in the four Gospel Books. Paul warns of this when he clearly states that his work as a wise "masterbuilder" is based upon the ONLY foundation, which is already laid, which is Christ. Those who take the writings of Paul and make something outside of what Christ says are probably going to suffer loss, (1Cor.3:12-15).

 Paul's warning also flows from the teaching of the Master. The quotes I have used from the epistles all are the word of God, the word flowing from the Master.

 We could still make mistakes. But there is nothing I have written about the epistles that doesn't flow from the words of Jesus in the four Gospels.


 

Yeshua strongly implies by parable that each servant would be brought before him INDIVIDUALLY. Then at the end comes the slaying of his enemies, (the parable of the wheat and the tares also applies to this final gathering of the wicked). Yeshua spoke the following parable just before going up to Jerusalem "because they thought that the Kingdom of G-d should immediately appear." Did the NT writers of the various Epistles need to rewrite the passage for us? Not if we love Yeshua and his doctrine and Word.

 Brother, you spoke very well about the judgment seat of Christ for the believers.

 This is related but perhaps somewhat aside from the rapture. It is true that word "rapture" is not in the Scripture.

 But who can object to its meaning ?

 Do you like how the NT writers wrote of "God" without a fear of uttering the Name ? Is the writing of God, instead of G_d, to you according to the firm foundation of Christ in the NT ?

  Does the practice of not daring to write "God" but only "G_d" flow from anything Yeshua taught in the four Gospels? I thought your way of writing "G_d" reminded me of an Old Testament scribe's sacred practice. Or it is like a Judiastic scribe's sacred practice.

  Anyway, I will be mostly talking about rapture, though the judgment seat of Christ is not totally unrelated to that probably.

  

Thank you! Thank you!
Even though my post was not addressed to you, (or anyone in paticular)
Now I know not to bother!

There are indeed two different Bema Seats mentioned. However, one is the Bema Seat of YHWH and the other is the Bema Seat of Christ. The Textus Receptus is not in agreement with the GNT Morph in one of those instances. However, the context of the passage makes it fairly clear that the KJV is in error concerning Romans 14:10 because the two following verses correctly translate the Theos.

Romans 14:10-12 KJV
10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the L-rd, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to G-d.
12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to G-d.

Romans 14:10-12 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Greek)
10. Su de tikrineis ton adelfon sou?  E kai su ti exoutheneis tonadelfon sou?  Pantes gar parastesometha to bemati touTheou,{*}
11. gegraptai gar: "Zo ego, legei Kurios,hoti emoi kampsei pan gonu kai pasa glossaexomologesetai to Theo."
12. Ara oun hekastos hemonperi heautou logon dosei to Theo.{*}

The correct rendering of the names in Romans 14:10-12 are provided in just about all of the more modern translations, ASV, RSV, NJB, DRB, (Darby's) etc.

Romans 14:10-12 ASV
10. But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of G-d (Theos).
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the L-rd, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to G-d (Theos).
12. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to G-d (Theos).

------------------------------

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the L-rd, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto G-d; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 TUA
10. Tous gar pantas hemasfanerothenai dei emprosthen tou bematos tou Christou,hina komisetai hekastos ta dia tou somatos pros haepraxen, eite agathon eite faulon.{*}
11. Eidotes oun ton fobon tou Kuriou anthropouspeithomen, Theo de pefanerometha, elpizo de kai entais suneidesesin humon pefanerosthai.

The phrase "knowing therefore the TERROR" is PAST TENSE.
Paul already knew that TERROR as explained on Page 1 of this thread, (2Cor.12).

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 YGB (Youngs Literal Bible)
10. for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil;
11. having known, therefore, the fear of the L-rd, we persuade men, and to G-d we are manifested, and I hope also in your consciences to have been manifested;

Abraham also knew (experienced) that Day according to the Master himself:

Genesis 15:8-18 KJV
8. And he said, L-rd G-d, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9. And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10. And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11. And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12. And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13. And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14. And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18. In the same day the L-rd made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

John 8:55-56 KJV
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Perhaps rather than being so concerned with the English spelling of the generic name for any god one might preferably consider not employing so great a multitude of EYE'S, MEE'S, and MY'S in his prolific pontifications, as it reveals who is really on the throne, and that he knows not of what he speaks.

 

[Feedmysheep]

 ============================================
   BroBrent---

I totally agree.  The church is the "body of Christ" and we are all parts of one another.  Will Christ (The Head) return and rapture a foot, but leave a hand behind?  We are only "overcomers" because of what Christ has done.  "Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes Jesus is the Christ the Son of God?" (1 John 5).

The church is not saved due to it's works---neither will the church be raptured according to works.  Paul says "We shall ALL be changed...."  

There will indeed be rewards AFTER THE RAPTURE takes place at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  But the rapture itself is of the redeemed---saved by Grace---and ALL who have been born-again shall be raptured.==========================================

  1.)  A disciplined Christian is not a Christian who is no longer in the Body of Christ.
  
        But he or she may be a son whom the wise Father is giving discipline to (Hebrews 12:6-10).

  2.) The Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Corinth,  in which each member was a member of the Body of Christ:

       "But there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19)


 This does not mean that those approved were members of the body of Christ and those not manifested as approved were not members of the body of Christ.

 3.) There are calls seven times to the 7 churches in Asia for ones to overcome. All did not have to overcome the same thing. But all had SOMETHING in which they were exhorted to overcome.  This does not mean that the ones who overcame were of the Body of Christ and the defeated ones were not of the Body of Christ.

 4.) If two Christian sisters are working and one is raptured and one is not, this does not mean that she who was not raptured is not of the Body of Christ.  Nor does it mean that she has lost regeneration or will no longer have the gift of eternal life.

    Justification by Faith simply does not mean that Christ has no way to further discipline His justified people. God is not mocked. And this is the error of superficial rapture teaching.

 They make a binary situation which is not biblical:

 Rapture = justified for eternal redemption.
 Not raptured = not justified for eternal redemption.

 The dichotomy is faulty.

  5.) Paul wrote:

    " ... for the perfecting of the saints ... unto the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (See Eph. 4:12,13)

   While we are in the process of arriving at a full grown man, it does not mean that some are not members of the Body of Christ.

 Until we all arrive, may not mean that all arrive at the same time.
 Arrive not at the same time does not make Christians not of the Body of Christ while they are in the process of arriving.

 6.) The writer of Hebrews wrote:

 "That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Heb. 6:11)

 This does not mean that Christians inheriting the promises are the Body of Christ and those seeking to be their imitators are not of the Body of Christ.

  7.) Again in Ephesians, about the Body, Paul wrote:

   "That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching etc ..." (Eph. 4:14)  

  This did not mean that the immature children are not of the Body of Christ but those who have learned not to be thus tossed are the only members of the Body of Christ.

  8.) Jesus prayed for His church in John 17:

    "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one ..." (See John 17:23)

    This does not mean that while saints are in the PERFECTING process they are not members of the Body of Christ.


 So, reward and discipline does not effect a Christian's status as a member of the Body of Christ.

 You wrote: The church is not saved due to it's works---neither will the church be raptured according to works.  Paul says "We shall ALL be changed...."  

  How do you undertand the exhortation and warning to be watchful? Is it necessary for the one justified by faith or not?

 I think it is neessary because the Lord was not talking about eternal redemption. He was talking about being taken in rapture.

  

[Feedmysheep]

 ==========================================
    The church is not saved due to it's works---neither will the church be raptured according to works.  Paul says "We shall ALL be changed...."  
==========================================

      Does it say that all will be changed at the same time ?

      In Revelation 14 Firstfruits are seen standing in heaven. We may assume that they were changed. Then after the events of the great tribulation a Harvest is seen scooped up by the Son of Man. We may assume they were changed.

 All were changed. But there  were Firstfruits first and Harvest latter.

  

[fish153]

 ==========================================
    The church is not saved due to it's works---neither will the church be raptured according to works.  Paul says "We shall ALL be changed...."  
==========================================

      Does it say that all will be changed at the same time ?

      In Revelation 14 Firstfruits are seen standing in heaven. We may assume that they were changed. Then after the events of the great tribulation a Harvest is seen scooped up by the Son of Man. We may assume they were changed.

 All were changed. But there  were Firstfruits first and Harvest latter.

  

Feedmysheep----

The Church age started at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture.   Those who were saved during that time are part of the CHURCH.  The church is the body of Christ.  We are ALL members one of another.  As Paul said "Can the hand say to the foot you are not needed?"   Christ is the HEAD of that church.

Jesus will not return and rapture only PART of His own BODY will He? The church will be raptured in it's entirety.

The saints who die during the Tribulation are not part of the CHURCH--by that I don't mean they are not believers------they just belong to a different dispensation---a period AFTER the Church age has ENDED.   They belong to the beginning of an AGE OF  RIGHTEOUSNESS---whereas the Church lived under the AGE OF GRACE.

The Church from the Age of Grace will be raptured ALL AT ONE TIME----the dead first---and those who "are alive and remain" on the earth (See 1 Thessalonians 5).  The Tribulation saints before the throne have ALL died by martyrdom---but not all at the same time.  There is a difference.

[Feedmysheep]

 ============================================
  The Church age started at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture.   Those who were saved during that time are part of the CHURCH.  The church is the body of Christ.  We are ALL members one of another.  As Paul said "Can the hand say to the foot you are not needed?"   Christ is the HEAD of that church.=======================================

 Amen! You will get no debate from me on this point.
 Thankyou.

==============================================
Jesus will not return and rapture only PART of His own BODY will He? The church will be raptured in it's entirety.=============================================

   I think we should consider the Lord's exhortations. We should soberly consider God's dealings with His people throughout the whole Bible.

 Often what Ought to have happened was not what Happened.
 What Should Be and what Is are not always the same.

  And some of us, if not all, should take that to heart.
 If there had been no exhortations from the Lord as there were, then maybe we should not have to take it to heart. But there ARE these kinds of exhortations, to watch and pray, to not be caught off guard, to not take for granted that we may suddenly SEE the One who lives within us.

   We would be sober to consider what Ought to be and apply our walk accordingly.

   If you think that I am a Christian with a lifestyle of lying every week in a bed of fornication, that I will be raptured suddenly to heaven, you have more faith then I do.

 Why should I want to be taken where I do not wish to go ? Today on the earth I am told:

"If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

 Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:1-4)

 If this were so automatic, why would there be any need for an exhortation ?
 What is the flavor of the apostle's word ?
 Do you sense any feeling of our responsibility ?
  

==========================================================
The saints who die during the Tribulation are not part of the CHURCH--by that I don't mean they are not believers------they just belong to a different dispensation---a period AFTER the Church age has ENDED.   They belong to the beginning of an AGE OF  RIGHTEOUSNESS---whereas the Church lived under the AGE OF GRACE.
============================================

   I don't think this would make any difference to the Lord's exhortation to watch.
   I don't  say that I agree. I don't say that I do not agree. I think that issue is beside the point here.

  Right now, I only say that it makes no difference to the sober warnings from Christ, to watch and be ready.  

 =================================================
The Church from the Age of Grace will be raptured ALL AT ONE TIME----the dead first---and those who "are alive and remain" on the earth (See 1 Thessalonians)  The Tribulation saints before the throne have ALL died by martyrdom---but not all at the same time.  There is a difference.================================================

   I would like you to compare two other passages in the Thessalonian letter:

  1.) First Thessalonians 5:9  - "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."  

  2.)  First Thessalonians 4:7 -  "For God has not called us for uncleaness but in sanctification."


   These verses to the young church in Thessolonica are both encouraging reminders about what God has called or appointed the saints to. In each word there is also the context of a call to our cooperation.

 I cannot say that because God has not called me to uncleaness it is impossible for me to fall into uncleaness.

 Neither would I say that because God has not appointed me to wrath, that I could not fall under some displeasure from my wise Father.

  Now lets look at the context of the encouraging word that God has not appointed us to wrath and try to grasp the overall "flavor" of the exhortation:

 "But you, brothers, are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief.
   For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

   So then let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep during the night, and those who get drunk are drunk during the night;

  But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and a helmet, the hope of salvation.

 For God did not appoint us to wrath but to the obtaining of salvation t hrough our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 4-9)

   Now I would ask you to soberly consider.

  Do you know any Christians who are drunken morality as in the night?
  Do you know any Christians who do not like to act like "sons of light" though they are?
  Do you know any Christians who do not soberly watch for the Lord ?
  Do you know any who seem drunken with the worldly pleasures?
  
  Why does Paul have to say "let us watch and be sober" if by being justified by faith forever, it is automatic that we do it ?

 Is there no sense of our responsibility to cooperate with the God working and willing in us ?  We are not appointed to wrath. So let us walk as we are not appointed. That is the sense I get from the passage.

  

[pointmade]

Feedmysheep: "Can you narrow your objection down a little? I am still thinking of your tares and wheat point. The tares gathered first. I think it was a valid point.

 I have not yet said too much in response to the wheat and tares matter. Are you interested ?

I do not want to hijack your thread of a "selective rapture."
Keep in mind that Jesus said in verse 39 of Matthew 13 "the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are
the angels. To me, it is very interesting that the tares are taken first.
Note also the mention of "angels" in Matthew 25:31.
Are they not the ones who will "gather the wheat and tares" to be JUDGED before the King?
Is this not the FINAL judgment of the righteous and unrighteous?
If not, we must consider deleting Matthew 25:46 from the words of Jesus.

I can correlate His teaching here with Matthew, chapters 24 thur 25 in His discourse with Peter, Andrew, James and John.
After all, this was a "private" conversation with men who would soon be launch into the world with His teachings. "Turn the world upside down."
I note in verse 20 of Matthew 28 His disciples (eleven) were to "go teach make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU."

I have to ask: were the Apostles commanded to teach the rapture, or show signs of His second coming?
Paul informed the church at Thessalonica: "Of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have NO NEED that I write unto you. (1 Thess. 5:1).
Since Paul told those in Thessalonica there was no need for them to KNOW the times and seasons just why are we today such inquiring minds with theories? I believe it is an embarrassment to the Lord!
Now, How many "observances" can you find in the New Testament "taught" by the Apostles?
Is the rapture one of them?