Reply #105 by 3 Resurrections
And Rella, your objections to a fulfilled “no more SEA” in our current New Heavens and New Earth are not taking Jewish terminology into consideration. John was not talking about oceanography and maritime realities. To the Jews of old, the SEA typically referred to pagan Gentile nations, just as the LAND typically referred to their own promised land of Canaan where the tribes of Israel had their inheritance.
This is why John pronounced woe in Rev. 12:12 upon the inhabitants of the LAND (of Israel), and upon the inhabitants of the SEA (pagan Gentile nations). He was not warning sharks, plankton, and jellyfish of coming disasters by the Satanic realm at that time.
Isaiah 60:5 also made the same comparison of the SEA to GENTILE NATIONS when he said that the “abundance of the SEA” would be converted to the Lord, by the “forces of the GENTILES” coming to the Lord.
You’re not the only one getting this issue confused, Rella. A Furman university professor I used to go to church with also had the same idea you have about “no more sea” meaning no more oceans existing in the world. As a great fan of vacations to the oceanside, they were greatly relieved to see (by the scriptures I just gave) that God was not promising in Rev. 21:1 to get rid of the oceans on this planet.
And I notice that no one above gave the year when all those miraculous signs appeared in the heavens and the temple that were recorded by Tacitus and Josephus. Josephus said these miraculous signs took place “...BEFORE the Jews rebellion, and BEFORE those commotions which preceded the war...” (Wars 6.5.3/290-291). The priests taking note of these signs interpreted them to “portend those events that immediately followed it” (meaning the Jewish rebellion started by the Zealots and the Roman / Jewish war).
So these signs of armies in the skies, the star looking like a sword hanging over Jerusalem, the bright light around the altar during the night, the heavy temple gate opening by itself, the heifer giving birth to a lamb in the temple on the way to being sacrificed, and the tumult and quaking of a great multitude leaving the temple saying “Let us depart hence” - all these occurred in AD 66 before Eleazar jump-started the rebellion against Rome late that year.
This great multitude departing the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost was not DEMONIC forces leaving the temple. It was RIGHTEOUS angels leaving it just before Jerusalem became a “prison” (phulake) that confined every unclean spirit without exception within its walls, according to Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-22. The righteous angels were “getting out of Dodge”, as it were, before it was given over to hordes of imprisoned demons and those they tormented - the “seven-fold” numbers of devils that Christ had predicted would come upon that same wicked generation in its “last state” (Matt. 12:43-45).
This occasion of the sound of the great multitude of righteous angels leaving the temple at Pentecost was also dated to begin the 5 months of demon-inspired torment put upon the citizens of Judea (Rev. 9:3-11). God allowed this so that they would be compelled in desperation to revolt against their abuse by governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops.
This EXIT of the righteous multitude from the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost (Wars 6.5.3/299-300) was polar opposite to the Pentecost of Acts 2, which sound of a rushing mighty wind brought the fullness of the Spirit’s power INTO the Temple to rest on the believers assembled there.
I have often heard Full Preterists suggest that these heavenly apparitions and miraculous signs in the temple cited by Josephus and Tacitus were signs that Christ had just accomplished His return, and that these were the only physical manifestations of that return. That idea is not quite on target date wise. Christ did not bodily return for the bodily resurrection of His saints until Pentecost of AD 70 - not AD 66.
« Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:47:36 »
Robycop3, I find your reply #89 to be really deluded regarding the post-exilic return of the scattered tribes. You state that they were not really scattered that much until Hadrian, but that opinion contradicts Cyrus’ decree. He sent out his decree in Ezra 1:1-3 to every nation under his control in the whole habitable world at that time, encouraging the return of the tribes’ families to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple. Sorry, but the texts you present of a regathering of the tribes back to Israel are NOT referring to modern-day events, but to the return after 70 years of captivity under the Babylonians.And Rella, your objections to a fulfilled “no more SEA” in our current New Heavens and New Earth are not taking Jewish terminology into consideration. John was not talking about oceanography and maritime realities. To the Jews of old, the SEA typically referred to pagan Gentile nations, just as the LAND typically referred to their own promised land of Canaan where the tribes of Israel had their inheritance.
This is why John pronounced woe in Rev. 12:12 upon the inhabitants of the LAND (of Israel), and upon the inhabitants of the SEA (pagan Gentile nations). He was not warning sharks, plankton, and jellyfish of coming disasters by the Satanic realm at that time.
Isaiah 60:5 also made the same comparison of the SEA to GENTILE NATIONS when he said that the “abundance of the SEA” would be converted to the Lord, by the “forces of the GENTILES” coming to the Lord.
You’re not the only one getting this issue confused, Rella. A Furman university professor I used to go to church with also had the same idea you have about “no more sea” meaning no more oceans existing in the world. As a great fan of vacations to the oceanside, they were greatly relieved to see (by the scriptures I just gave) that God was not promising in Rev. 21:1 to get rid of the oceans on this planet.
And I notice that no one above gave the year when all those miraculous signs appeared in the heavens and the temple that were recorded by Tacitus and Josephus. Josephus said these miraculous signs took place “...BEFORE the Jews rebellion, and BEFORE those commotions which preceded the war...” (Wars 6.5.3/290-291). The priests taking note of these signs interpreted them to “portend those events that immediately followed it” (meaning the Jewish rebellion started by the Zealots and the Roman / Jewish war).
So these signs of armies in the skies, the star looking like a sword hanging over Jerusalem, the bright light around the altar during the night, the heavy temple gate opening by itself, the heifer giving birth to a lamb in the temple on the way to being sacrificed, and the tumult and quaking of a great multitude leaving the temple saying “Let us depart hence” - all these occurred in AD 66 before Eleazar jump-started the rebellion against Rome late that year.
This great multitude departing the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost was not DEMONIC forces leaving the temple. It was RIGHTEOUS angels leaving it just before Jerusalem became a “prison” (phulake) that confined every unclean spirit without exception within its walls, according to Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-22. The righteous angels were “getting out of Dodge”, as it were, before it was given over to hordes of imprisoned demons and those they tormented - the “seven-fold” numbers of devils that Christ had predicted would come upon that same wicked generation in its “last state” (Matt. 12:43-45).
This occasion of the sound of the great multitude of righteous angels leaving the temple at Pentecost was also dated to begin the 5 months of demon-inspired torment put upon the citizens of Judea (Rev. 9:3-11). God allowed this so that they would be compelled in desperation to revolt against their abuse by governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops.
This EXIT of the righteous multitude from the temple in AD 66 at Pentecost (Wars 6.5.3/299-300) was polar opposite to the Pentecost of Acts 2, which sound of a rushing mighty wind brought the fullness of the Spirit’s power INTO the Temple to rest on the believers assembled there.
I have often heard Full Preterists suggest that these heavenly apparitions and miraculous signs in the temple cited by Josephus and Tacitus were signs that Christ had just accomplished His return, and that these were the only physical manifestations of that return. That idea is not quite on target date wise. Christ did not bodily return for the bodily resurrection of His saints until Pentecost of AD 70 - not AD 66.
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Reply #106 by robycop3
And that's the situation today. While there are many Israelis scattered thruout the world they don't know they're Israelis. But God will make them aware so they'll heed His call to re-assemble in their own land.
And "sea" means SEA. The new, re-arranged world won't have any oceans. A bad pret habit is to change the actual meaning of some words & phrases in Scripture to attempt to match their imaginations. I believe GOD views such changes as adding to or subtracting from His word. He used specific words for specific reasons, & shame on us if we change them by trying to give them different meanings. If I say "car", I don't mean "boat". God said 'sea' & He didn't mean 'people' !
And there are no Scriptures saying the temple was full of angels. And if there were angels there, they wouldn't be afraid of any demons.
« Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 04:47:28 »
Sorry, Captain, but the delusions seem to be YOURS, or those of some quackery you've read from some charlatan pret author. The 10 tribes were scattered, beginning shortly after their deportation by the Assyrians. As time passed, the Assyrians became more-concerned with events occurring near their own land & didn't really try to rule over the Israelis & other peoples they'd exiled to the fringes of their empire. Soon, the Israelis came under the rule of whoever had the strongest nation in the areas they been deported to, and over time, forgot their actual national identity. However, a few retained theirs long enough to heed Cyrus' call. But by the time Jesus was born, only a very few realized they were Israelis.And that's the situation today. While there are many Israelis scattered thruout the world they don't know they're Israelis. But God will make them aware so they'll heed His call to re-assemble in their own land.
And "sea" means SEA. The new, re-arranged world won't have any oceans. A bad pret habit is to change the actual meaning of some words & phrases in Scripture to attempt to match their imaginations. I believe GOD views such changes as adding to or subtracting from His word. He used specific words for specific reasons, & shame on us if we change them by trying to give them different meanings. If I say "car", I don't mean "boat". God said 'sea' & He didn't mean 'people' !
And there are no Scriptures saying the temple was full of angels. And if there were angels there, they wouldn't be afraid of any demons.
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Reply #107 by 3 Resurrections
Where did I say anything at all about the righteous angels being AFRAID of evil ones? I didn’t. I believe God was deliberately withdrawing the presence of righteous angels from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 on Pentecost day to give free reign to the entire realm of unclean spirits that were going to be put in PRISON (phulake) within the city during those final years of AD 66-70 (as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted).
The insane, suicidal activities that the Zealots perpetrated upon their own people and themselves during those years is proof positive of the saturating presence of the demonic realm within the city, and was a fulfillment of Christ’s prediction in Matthew 12:43-45 for the “last state” of that wicked generation, as I said before. That’s why this period was called the "Great tribulation" such as had never been, or that ever would be duplicated in the future after that (Matt. 24:21), because the demonic realm was destroyed at the end of AD 70, and is not in existence anymore to instigate this same type of mayhem. What evil we see going on now in the world is strictly due to humanity’s own heart evil expressing itself, which you want to deny.
And as for my quoting Preterist authors, I don’t believe I have ever given a single quote by a modern-day Preterist author in anything I have ever written. I keep my nose buried in scripture for the vast majority of my studies.
What you are ignoring, robycop3, is the entire books of Ezra and Nehemiah and Haggai and parts of other prophetic books like Zephaniah and Zechariah that directly addressed the time of the post-exilic return after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity. Why are you trying to flush this time period as if it never existed? Very strange hermeneutics you are practicing.
The post-exilic return years with the returning tribes were when Jerusalem would be “inhabited as towns WITHOUT WALLS for the multitude of men and cattle therein”, after Zion had delivered itself from “dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON” (Zech. 2:4,7). You had given a challenge before about proving when the Gog prophecy was fulfilled with Israel dwelling in the “UNwalled villages”. Well, here is the proof of that time, and it was going to develop after the tribes returned from their BABYLONIAN captivity according to Zechariah - not a time future to us.
« Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 06:48:59 »
Hey robycop3, Where did I say anything at all about the righteous angels being AFRAID of evil ones? I didn’t. I believe God was deliberately withdrawing the presence of righteous angels from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 on Pentecost day to give free reign to the entire realm of unclean spirits that were going to be put in PRISON (phulake) within the city during those final years of AD 66-70 (as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted).
The insane, suicidal activities that the Zealots perpetrated upon their own people and themselves during those years is proof positive of the saturating presence of the demonic realm within the city, and was a fulfillment of Christ’s prediction in Matthew 12:43-45 for the “last state” of that wicked generation, as I said before. That’s why this period was called the "Great tribulation" such as had never been, or that ever would be duplicated in the future after that (Matt. 24:21), because the demonic realm was destroyed at the end of AD 70, and is not in existence anymore to instigate this same type of mayhem. What evil we see going on now in the world is strictly due to humanity’s own heart evil expressing itself, which you want to deny.
And as for my quoting Preterist authors, I don’t believe I have ever given a single quote by a modern-day Preterist author in anything I have ever written. I keep my nose buried in scripture for the vast majority of my studies.
What you are ignoring, robycop3, is the entire books of Ezra and Nehemiah and Haggai and parts of other prophetic books like Zephaniah and Zechariah that directly addressed the time of the post-exilic return after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity. Why are you trying to flush this time period as if it never existed? Very strange hermeneutics you are practicing.
The post-exilic return years with the returning tribes were when Jerusalem would be “inhabited as towns WITHOUT WALLS for the multitude of men and cattle therein”, after Zion had delivered itself from “dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON” (Zech. 2:4,7). You had given a challenge before about proving when the Gog prophecy was fulfilled with Israel dwelling in the “UNwalled villages”. Well, here is the proof of that time, and it was going to develop after the tribes returned from their BABYLONIAN captivity according to Zechariah - not a time future to us.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 21:46:47 by 3 Resurrections »
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Reply #108 by robycop3
1. No Scripture saying angels occupied the temple.
2. The great trib will be WORLD-WIDE, as Rev. 3:10 says.
3. The Gog-Magog war hasn't yet happened. The Zealot attack was NOT that war, as the presiding nations will send ARMIES, not just a token force.
4. The daughter of Babylon was NOT the land of Babylon, nor the city of Babylon, but was its RELIGION. While most jews worshipped God after being allowed to return to their land, many still offered cakes to the "queen of heaven" & wept for Tammuz, both elements of the "mystery, Babylon" religion.
5. Jerusalem was rebuilt with walls, as is proven by the fact it could only be entered thru its gates. (There was a small breach in its wall called "the eye of a needle" thru which men & unloaded camels could enter. Merchants sometimes sneaked in on the Sabbath when the gates were locked, but they had to unload their camels so they could enter thru it. That gave rise to Jesus saying it was easier to pass thru the eye of a needle...
While you might not QUOTE those pret quacks directly, you use their goofy ideas. Almost the same difference, & just-as-incorrect !
« Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 16:41:25 »
Hey robycop3,
Where did I say anything at all about the righteous angels being AFRAID of evil ones? I didn’t. I believe God was deliberately withdrawing the presence of righteous angels from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 on Pentecost day to give free reign to the entire realm of unclean spirits that were going to be put in PRISON (phulake) within the city during those final years of AD 66-70 (as Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted).
The insane, suicidal activities that the Zealots perpetrated upon their own people and themselves during those years is proof positive of the saturating presence of the demonic realm within the city, and was a fulfillment of Christ’s prediction in Matthew 12:43-45 for the “last state” of that wicked generation, as I said before. That’s why this period was called the greatest tribulation that had ever been or that ever would be in the future after that (Matt. 24:21), because the demonic realm was destroyed at the end of AD 70, and is not in existence anymore to instigate this type of mayhem. What evil we see going on now in the world is strictly due to humanity’s own heart evil expressing itself, which you want to deny.
And as for my quoting Preterist authors, I don’t believe I have ever given a single quote by a modern-day Preterist author in anything I have ever written. I keep my nose buried in scripture for the vast majority of my studies.
What you are ignoring, robycop3, is the entire books of Ezra and Nehemiah and Haggai and parts of other prophetic books like Zephaniah and Zechariah that directly addressed the time of the post-exilic return after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity. Why are you trying to flush this time period as if it never existed? Very strange hermeneutics you are practicing.
The post-exilic return years with the returning tribes were when Jerusalem would be “inhabited as towns WITHOUT WALLS for the multitude of men and cattle therein”, after Zion had delivered itself from “dwelling with the daughter of BABYLON” (Zech. 2:4,7). You had given a challenge before about proving when the Gog prophecy was fulfilled with Israel dwelling in the “UNwalled villages”. Well, here is the proof of that time, and it was going to develop after the tribes returned from their BABYLONIAN captivity according to Zechariah - not a time future to us.
1. No Scripture saying angels occupied the temple.
2. The great trib will be WORLD-WIDE, as Rev. 3:10 says.
3. The Gog-Magog war hasn't yet happened. The Zealot attack was NOT that war, as the presiding nations will send ARMIES, not just a token force.
4. The daughter of Babylon was NOT the land of Babylon, nor the city of Babylon, but was its RELIGION. While most jews worshipped God after being allowed to return to their land, many still offered cakes to the "queen of heaven" & wept for Tammuz, both elements of the "mystery, Babylon" religion.
5. Jerusalem was rebuilt with walls, as is proven by the fact it could only be entered thru its gates. (There was a small breach in its wall called "the eye of a needle" thru which men & unloaded camels could enter. Merchants sometimes sneaked in on the Sabbath when the gates were locked, but they had to unload their camels so they could enter thru it. That gave rise to Jesus saying it was easier to pass thru the eye of a needle...
While you might not QUOTE those pret quacks directly, you use their goofy ideas. Almost the same difference, & just-as-incorrect !
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Reply #109 by dpr
And what I find that is even more sad, are brethren in Christ that are so deceived they don't realize it's impossible to prevent even the atheist from posting junk here, lest the administrators shut the forum down.
« Fri Oct 23, 2020 - 10:56:55 »
Another attempt by satan to insult our intelligence. False prophecy is all you know.
I think Admin made a mistake to start this thread.... no one is discussing anything.. just rude insults and crude remarks to those who post.
This is sad.
What i find even sadder is that some Christians cannot separate Church from State. They do not accept history & reality & make all Christians look uneducated & delusional as they when they try to prophesy 2,000 yr. old events into future sci-fi, no less, yet with a "Jesus returning" spin on it!
Are you challenging my pov, kensington?
Deut.18:22,
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Luke 11:49-50,
49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
Mt.24:31-34,
31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
So, kensington, did Christ tell the truth? Or did He tell His disciples to watch & pray with their lives, for an event thousands of yrs. off, & irrelevant to their lives?
Don't feel sad about it. Think please!
In His service,
rezar
And what I find that is even more sad, are brethren in Christ that are so deceived they don't realize it's impossible to prevent even the atheist from posting junk here, lest the administrators shut the forum down.
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Reply #110 by Rob
There are many "comings" of Christ. He left the world at his death, then returned the 3rd day. He comes to a believer at salvation. He comes to a believer at the death of the believer, as shown with Stephen.
All of these comings get lumped together into "the second coming" for some reason. Jesus was pretty clear when he said his kingdom was not of this world, there is no reason to come here again.
« Wed Dec 16, 2020 - 09:37:39 »
I'd say if they could prove Jesus was coming a 3rd time Scripturally, then it might account for something.
Otherwise, it just sounds like the other less serious "panmillennialists."
There are many "comings" of Christ. He left the world at his death, then returned the 3rd day. He comes to a believer at salvation. He comes to a believer at the death of the believer, as shown with Stephen.
All of these comings get lumped together into "the second coming" for some reason. Jesus was pretty clear when he said his kingdom was not of this world, there is no reason to come here again.
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