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Offline Corbley

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Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:07:29 »
As your reading Rev 18 below...Picture America as its focus...This could very likely be America

Revelation 18
   1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

   2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

   3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

   4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

   5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

   6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

   7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

   8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

   9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

   10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

   11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

   12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

   13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

   14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

   15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

   16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

   17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

   18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

   19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

   20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

   21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

   22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

   23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

   24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


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Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:07:29 »

larry2

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:29:14 »

Dear Brother Corbley, who in your opinion does Revelation Chapters seventeen and eighteen describe to you? Who is the woman carried by the seven heads, and who are the people of God admonished to come out of her in Revelation 18:4 lest they partake of her plagues? I certainly do not think America is the nation described there.

Thank you in Jesus' name.

« Last Edit: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 12:49:40 by larry2 »

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:29:14 »

Offline Corbley

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 09:20:25 »
America is a sinful nation....It very closely describes America and the trade that America does with nations.

American $$ are traded worldwide (which is close to ending) As China calls for a new cash reserve.
Verse 11 I think speaks of this event

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 11:07:25 »
by Corbley,
Quote

As your reading Rev 18 below...Picture America as its focus.

Therein lies your problem. You're causing in your mind a "self-fulfilling" prophesy. Any major dudette would tell you so.

"Mystery Babylon, the Mother of harlots" is a prophetic statement. It's not a political statement (which btw, yours should be asked under politics- & not the Bible) It's about Covenants!

The harlot in Rev. is 1st century Jerusalem. Do you remember Jesus telling Israel that all the blood from Abel to Zach. was going to fall on that wicked generation- & the apostles wouldn't finish evangelizing even in Jerusalem before the Son of man would come?

OK. The "woman" rides the beast in Rev.17. Most of the time God calls Israel a "she."

Oh, & the kingdom of God is not about $$ either. We see the riches of Jerusalem & the temple furnishings in Rev.18. Jerusalem was rich & the foreign trade in Jerusalem- food supplies, precious metals, luxury goods. Trade from Moab, Hebron, Sharon, Lyddia, Arabia, & other regions.  IOWs, the participation of Jews in Mediterranean trade is well attested. Costly materials for the temple, etc. Herod built the port-city of Caesarea. He built an artificial seaport.

The symbolism of the woman riding the beast is Israel riding Rome. Israel had her own kings even though she was a puppet nation under Roman rule.
All that changed when the woman rebelled against the beast (Israel against Rome).
And the more powerful nation(Rome) turned on the woman & utterly burned her with fire.
Precisely why "Rome" is not the harlot- bc Rome was the beast!

Are you listening so far? OK. Because this is the reality of the prophecy in history.

Ok. The harlot "Babylon" is Jerusalem in the 1st century generation who had become "a habit of demons"  Jesus said several times the present generation was "wicked."

Most of all, the Biblical record speaks to Israel as mystery Babylon.
 In Rev.18:23, the voice of the bride & bridegroom shall not be heard in you anymore.

It is Jerusalem & Jerusalem only. The entire Bible is about Israel. True Israel was about to be raised up. God declared He was Israel's Husband. He had been married to Israel (Jer.3:14).

The city that was spiritually called "sodom & gomorrah" & "egypt"   But literally "where the Lord was crucified." was Jerusalem.


But what you have there Corbley about America & China, should be asked in the "Politics" section. ::smile::



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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 11:07:25 »

Offline Mr. J

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 11:24:06 »
The woman who rides the beast is clearly defined as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH (Rev. 17-5).  So she is clearly not Israel.  

In addition, the woman who rides the beast is further explained in Rev. 17 7-18.  She is "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Babylon the Great and Mystery Babylon is the same thing.  It is a city.  There are other clues about this city:

:  It is reigns over the kings of the earth (who will agree to destroy it).  Rev. 17 16-17.
:  It is the very center of world trade.  Rev. 18
:  It has a deep water port where all the world's ships come.  Rev. 18 17
:  It it from where evil is spread throughout the world.  Rev 18 3
:  It is called MYSTERY BABYLON, which seems to tell us something is not as it seems, or behind the scenes activities; power brokers, occult? Rev. 17 5

Currently there is only one city on earth that can be described as all the above; New York.  The only other city on earth that has such a large, deep water port and is a great manufacturing outlet and might possibly become rich enough (future?) is Hong Kong.

There are no European port cities which can fit all the descriptions.  There are no great port cities in Europe.  Frankfurt is the largest city in Europe and it has no port.

We are told clearly that Mystery Babylon is a city.  It is not a figure of speech.  It cannot be Jerusalem as that city is not the center of world trade, nor has it ever been.  Nor has it ruled the kings of the earth.

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 11:24:06 »



Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 12:22:48 »
No, you're being hyperliteral of a book that is clearly symbolic. I could even refute your geography & history, but it is not necessary. We won't find that in the N.T. No other city will be reconciled with the thousand pieces of evidence for the mother of harlots & not the mother of the free woman.(heavenly Jerusalem- the spiritual New Jerusalem- the church universal)

Name another city that Jesus lamented over. Yep, it was a city alright. And it was occupied by corrupted priestly leadership in her last days.


24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
      For your people and for your holy city,
      To finish the transgression,
      To make an end of sins,
      To make reconciliation for iniquity,
      To bring in everlasting righteousness,
      To seal up vision and prophecy,
      And to anoint the Most Holy.
(Dan.9:24)

« Last Edit: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 12:53:29 by rezar »

Offline fish153

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #6 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 14:43:49 »
The woman who rides the beast is clearly defined as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH (Rev. 17-5).  So she is clearly not Israel.  

In addition, the woman who rides the beast is further explained in Rev. 17 7-18.  She is "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Babylon the Great and Mystery Babylon is the same thing.  It is a city.  There are other clues about this city:

:  It is reigns over the kings of the earth (who will agree to destroy it).  Rev. 17 16-17.
:  It is the very center of world trade.  Rev. 18
:  It has a deep water port where all the world's ships come.  Rev. 18 17
:  It it from where evil is spread throughout the world.  Rev 18 3
:  It is called MYSTERY BABYLON, which seems to tell us something is not as it seems, or behind the scenes activities; power brokers, occult? Rev. 17 5

Currently there is only one city on earth that can be described as all the above; New York.  The only other city on earth that has such a large, deep water port and is a great manufacturing outlet and might possibly become rich enough (future?) is Hong Kong.

There are no European port cities which can fit all the descriptions.  There are no great port cities in Europe.  Frankfurt is the largest city in Europe and it has no port.

We are told clearly that Mystery Babylon is a city.  It is not a figure of speech.  It cannot be Jerusalem as that city is not the center of world trade, nor has it ever been.  Nor has it ruled the kings of the earth.


I think you are forgetting Dubai City in Dubai.  It has become one of the wealthiest cities on earth, with the tallest building.  It is right on the water, and right in an area where terrorists could destroy it in one day.  It is a modern day Babylon-----google it and check it out.  It has huge prostitution problems (amazing as it is an Arab city within an Arab Country).  

The whole world has invested there---even Donald Trump.   Think about it seriously----what city would terrorists love to destroy?  We think New York, or an American city----but what about one that resembles America in every way, located in a country that has compromised it's arab and muslim values to embrace the capitilistic world? It is capitilism run amock, with LAVISH living literally everywhere.  I think Dubai City fits the bill of a modern day Babylon---and it could literally be destroyed in one day just as Revelation states will happen to the city.

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 15:07:54 »
Oh, it's such a sinful world! Here's a good one. Enjoy:
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/studies/BabylonJerusalem.html

Offline Mr. J

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 16:35:27 »
No, you're being hyperliteral


An angel gives  the interpretation of who the woman is that rides the beast and you call it hyperliteral. (Rev. ch  17)

Apparently you don't believe what the angel told John.

Offline Mr. J

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 16:41:07 »

I think you are forgetting Dubai City in Dubai.

Dubai City is not the center of world trade, nor does it appear that it ever will be as it has no manufacturing.  That city is not a city where the world's ships come to.  It is not, nor ever has been a seat of power over kings.

Dubai City in no way resembles that city spoken of in the Bible as Babylon the Great.

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 18:05:55 »

I think you are forgetting Dubai City in Dubai.


Dubai City is not the center of world trade, nor does it appear that it ever will be as it has no manufacturing.  That city is not a city where the world's ships come to.  It is not, nor ever has been a seat of power over kings.

Dubai City in no way resembles that city spoken of in the Bible as Babylon the Great.


The Arabs thoughts exactly on 9-11.  So how come Jesus didn't return when "Babylon" was hit? Go on now, Rev.18 flows into 1/2 of Rev.19 - & "we" celebrate that our prayers, ( these are the prayers of the saints) have been answered by God -" paying with retribution on those who trouble you" (2Thess.1)
It is false prophesying to say something the Lord said was "at hand" in His generation.  So who should i believe?

Can see the oil industry flourished while the rest of the world 's in a recession!

                               
                                    Dubai

                                       



Offline Corbley

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:21:43 »
No, you're being hyperliteral


An angel gives  the interpretation of who the woman is that rides the beast and you call it hyperliteral. (Rev. ch  17)

Apparently you don't believe what the angel told John.

Rezar follows (what I believe to be a false doctrine) In that, he thinks the second coming has already happened. 
I think, that many are being fooled into this false doctrine,  and will likely cause many faithful Christians to be decieved into getting the Mark ...Which is coming to a Dr.s office soon.   (Probably shortly after the EU places a Perm. Pres)

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 19:50:37 »
No, you're being hyperliteral



An angel gives  the interpretation of who the woman is that rides the beast and you call it hyperliteral. (Rev. ch  17)

Apparently you don't believe what the angel told John.


Rezar follows (what I believe to be a false doctrine) In that, he thinks the second coming has already happened. 
I think, that many are being fooled into this false doctrine,  and will likely cause many faithful Christians to be decieved into getting the Mark ...Which is coming to a Dr.s office soon.   (Probably shortly after the EU places a Perm. Pres)



Rezar follows this or that. Boo-hoo. So, missy, will you be 1st to get it at the Drs. office? 
 It'll be my pleasure!


k-pappy

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 20:45:32 »
rezar, you need to lighten up.  Your beliefs are just that, your beliefs.  They are not stone truth.  If the Bible says a city is going to be destroyed, it is not hyperliteral to claim a city is going to be destroyed.  And, frankly, to claim it is not a city takes more twisting and explaining then to claim it is a city.

Mr. J, New York is the economic capital of the world.  Remember 1929?  Actions in NY threw the entire world into a depression.  Destruction of that city would have a world-wide impact today.

In Christ,
KP

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 21:51:16 »
rezar, you need to lighten up.  Your beliefs are just that, your beliefs.  They are not stone truth.  If the Bible says a city is going to be destroyed, it is not hyperliteral to claim a city is going to be destroyed.  And, frankly, to claim it is not a city takes more twisting and explaining then to claim it is a city.

Mr. J, New York is the economic capital of the world.  Remember 1929?  Actions in NY threw the entire world into a depression.  Destruction of that city would have a world-wide impact today.

In Christ,
KP
With all due respect, the Bible said that 2,000 yrs. ago.
And lighten up?  i'm the only one on this thread with a sense of humor.  ::disco::


k-pappy

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #15 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 22:02:13 »
Now on that, we can agree!  John wrote the book of Revelation in approx 96 AD.

I think that is where the agreement ends though.  You believe the stuff John wrote about happened in 70 AD, and I believe it has not happened just yet.

In Christ,
KP

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 23:02:58 »
And the amazing thing is that at least one of us is wrong. I think i proved, with scripture, time & again, that Jesus said what would happen in His generation would.

Futurists have a convenient way of twisting scripture to make them think Jesus was speaking to them. His audience were his contemporaries. What sense does it even make for Jesus to tell the disciples to watch & pray if it was for an event in their far distant future?

If that makes sense to you, then it must be so. God must've not wanted all to see His plan here. Preterists are more joyful & thankful Christians, for what we DO have from God right now- instead of longing for some carnal kingdom as if Eden could ever repeat with the this population today. Jesus doesn't need to come again, that's why none of the predictions ever come to pass.


 

k-pappy

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 05:53:47 »
And the amazing thing is that at least one of us is wrong. I think i proved, with scripture, time & again, that Jesus said what would happen in His generation would.

Futurists have a convenient way of twisting scripture to make them think Jesus was speaking to them. His audience were his contemporaries. What sense does it even make for Jesus to tell the disciples to watch & pray if it was for an event in their far distant future?

If that makes sense to you, then it must be so. God must've not wanted all to see His plan here. Preterists are more joyful & thankful Christians, for what we DO have from God right now- instead of longing for some carnal kingdom as if Eden could ever repeat with the this population today. Jesus doesn't need to come again, that's why none of the predictions ever come to pass.
 

You have not proved anything...you have dismissed scripture that is opposed to your view.

As for joy and thankfulness, my joy and my thankfulness comes from what Jesus did for me, not any peripheral beliefs. 

In Christ,
KP

Offline farouk

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 05:58:18 »
I don't see any reference to the US in the Bible.

But it is God's revelation to man, and there are plenty of useful and edifying applications and warnings to all nationalities, including Americans.

Offline Corbley

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #19 on: Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 15:40:44 »
I don't see any reference to the US in the Bible.

But it is God's revelation to man, and there are plenty of useful and edifying applications and warnings to all nationalities, including Americans.
No there is no direct reference to the US....however, the US could fit

Offline farouk

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 15:45:44 »
Mr C:

I guess in exegetical terms, therein lies the distinction between interpretation and application.

I don't see any reference to the US in the Bible.

But it is God's revelation to man, and there are plenty of useful and edifying applications and warnings to all nationalities, including Americans.
No there is no direct reference to the US....however, the US could fit

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 18:36:53 »
Actually it s talking about America and Papal Rome as in Rev 17:9 is Papal Rome which is described as a women sitting on seven mountains as Rome is known as a city with seven mountains. You have to go back to Revelation 13 to understand this is all talking about Rome and America and it's domination of a One World Government. This is a bit long, but please read the whole thing. Where it says to come out from her means to come out from all the false teachings and false prophets and come back to Gods word allowing the Holy Spirit teach you all truths, John 14:26.

TWO OCCULT POWERS UNITED FOR FINAL WORLD CONTROL
THE BEAST (Rome) and HIS IMAGE (U.S.A.)
In Scripture, Rev.13:1-18, two world powers are described. The first, which received worship and ruled brutally for over a thousand years, but then lost her temporal power to Protestantism, is fittingly named in Scripture, the “Beast
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 18:46:52 by Debbie_55 »

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 18:38:00 »
Revelation 13:11-18

11 And I (John) beheld (America) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he (America) spake as a dragon.
(beast represents nations in the Bible: two horns represent America and Catholic Rome)

12 And he (America) exerciseth all the power of Catholic Rome before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship Roman Catholicism whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he (America) doeth great wonders, so that he (America) maketh fire (nuclear weapons and explosions) come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he(America) had power to do in the sight of Roman Catholicism saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make a likeness to Roman Catholicism which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he (America) had power to give life unto the likeness of Roman Catholicism that the likeness of Roman Catholicism should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the likeness of Roman Catholicism should be killed.

16 And he (America) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the
Roman Catholic religious system or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the Roman Catholic religious system for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six.

Offline farouk

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 18:43:53 »
Whether or not there are applications, it's hard to be dogmatic if the Bible doesn't actually say it.

Offline Mrs Mac

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 03:19:10 »
rezar 
Quote
you're being hyperliteral of a book that is clearly symbolic

Symbolism does not mean that interpretation is not literal. One just has to work out what the symbols mean.  ::smile::

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 09:54:26 »
rezar 
Quote
you're being hyperliteral of a book that is clearly symbolic

Symbolism does not mean that interpretation is not literal. One just has to work out what the symbols mean.  ::smile::

"One just has to work out what the symbols mean"   Yes, but according to what? Their own imaginations? No! It's according to the usage of the prophetic language by the prophets in the O.T.

The basic principle of hermeneutics is that difficult or obscure passages must be interpreted in light of those that are clear. The great hurdle many face in understanding Biblical eschatology is the figurative nature of apocalyptic language. The language of the prophets by its very definition is veiled & obscure. It's marked by poetic imagery, license & exaggeration & is impressed in hyperboles, metaphors, & symbols.

Hence, as between apocalyptic language describing the manner of Christ's return & the plain statements of time given by the Lord & his apostles concerning whenit would occur, it is clear that the former must be interpreted in light of the latter & not vice versa.

Sound exegesis requires that the eschatological teaching of the Lord & his apostles was fulfilled when & as prophesied.
However, the manner of fulfillment was essentially spiritual, not physical- language that on its face appears to describe the dissolution of the chemical elements in a cataclysmic end of time & space must be given a figurative construction & interpretation.
This is required, not only bc of the confines for fulfillment imposed by statements of time,
but by the usus loquendi(usage) of the prophets.

The following language describing God's judgment upon Idumea & the nations of the world in the days of Assyria & Babylon will help make the point:

Judgment on the Nations
 1 Come near, you nations, to hear;
      And heed, you people!
       Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
      The world and all things that come forth from it.
       2 For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
      And His fury against all their armies;
      He has utterly destroyed them,
      He has given them over to the slaughter.
       3 Also their slain shall be thrown out;
      Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
      And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
       4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
      And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
      All their host shall fall down
      As the leaf falls from the vine,
      And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
      The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
       9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
      And its dust into brimstone;
      Its land shall become burning pitch.
       10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
      Its smoke shall ascend forever.
      From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
      No one shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isa.34:1-4,8-10)


The poetic & figurative nature of the instant language is only too obvious. No one will contend that in the dissolution of Edom & the nations of God's wrath by the Assyrians & Babylonians that the stars of heaven were literally dissolved, the heavens rolled up like a scroll, or the dust of the land was turned to brimstone. Edom ceased to exist as a separate people & nation millennia ago- yet none of the physical phenomena described attended its passing.
Although language of universal nature, involving the whole fabric of heavens & earth is employed to describe the judgments announced- its fulfillment is limited in time & manner to the people & era set out.

Occurrence of such language & imagery is common throughout the O.T. in passages describing God's judgment upon various peoples & nations- it is the usus loquendi of the prophets; invariably it is poetic, never literal.

I've been studying preterist eschatology for several years now, Mrs. Mac. I didn't understand the symbolism based on my own brain. If that were the case (actually it is the case we have now) People's imaginations run amok! ::smile::

I hope this helped to make you start to think about symbolism in the Bible!




Offline Corbley

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 22:26:38 »
Whether or not there are applications, it's hard to be dogmatic if the Bible doesn't actually say it.
The bible does tell us to watch for signs of the times .....these are signs of the times

Offline Sardine Can

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Oct 24, 2009 - 21:30:54 »
Babel-on The Fall of America.
This movie is great. ::eatingpopcorn:


Offline farouk

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 24, 2009 - 21:42:39 »
c:

Oh yes, signs of the times, indeed.

But from a strict interpretational perspective, I don't find the United States mentioned in the Bible.

k-pappy

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 24, 2009 - 21:51:02 »
farouk,

Since the U.S. is not mentioned in the Bible, could it be we will be irrelevant  by that time?  No longer a player on the world stage?

Maybe a great economic collapse or worse to take us out of the picture?

In Christ,
KP

Offline farouk

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #30 on: Sat Oct 24, 2009 - 21:53:17 »
p:

I'm not in the US, and also I don't know.

My point was interpretational from Scripture, I guess.

farouk,

Since the U.S. is not mentioned in the Bible, could it be we will be irrelevant  by that time?  No longer a player on the world stage?

Maybe a great economic collapse or worse to take us out of the picture?

In Christ,
KP

blu

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #31 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 14:51:02 »

Dear Brother Corbley, who in your opinion does Revelation Chapters seventeen and eighteen describe to you? Who is the woman carried by the seven heads, and who are the people of God admonished to come out of her in Revelation 18:4 lest they partake of her plagues? I certainly do not think America is the nation described there.

Thank you in Jesus' name.



I do not think you should bring in secular thoughts into the bible since the bible is its own commentary.
Going back to Rev 17 babylon is the mother of harlots, hence, the unsaved in the church are the harlots and the church itself is the whore, that is why it says "MOTHER OF HARLOTS." (Jas 4:4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. ::preachit::

Rev 18 clearly says all prophets and saints. that includes those of Jesus from Rev 17: (Rev 17:6)  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. ::juggle::

(Rev 18:24)  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Offline rezar

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #32 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 16:21:50 »
by blu,
Quote
(Rev 18:24)  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is the 21 century church?  Well, remind me not to visit yours- bc you just spoke curses to the church!  Kingdom of darkness at work fella! The tongue is surely evil, isn't it?

"Babylon" was 1st century Jerusalem fella.  Stick to the Scripture & history- not fiction.

blu

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #33 on: Sun Oct 25, 2009 - 18:34:19 »
by blu,
Quote
(Rev 18:24)  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is the 21 century church?  Well, remind me not to visit yours- bc you just spoke curses to the church!  Kingdom of darkness at work fella! The tongue is surely evil, isn't it?

"Babylon" was 1st century Jerusalem fella.  Stick to the Scripture & history- not fiction.

So sorry you feel that way, but I am reading the scripture. Babylon is a synonym for the church now as it is the name of the world of darkness run by Satan; it was the dwelling place of Satan, and when Satan took over the church, the church also became s part of babylon. (2Thes 2:3)  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Thes 2:4)  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ::reading::

Offline Eccl12:13

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Re: Is Revelation 18 talking about America?
« Reply #34 on: Mon Oct 26, 2009 - 01:25:22 »

:  It is reigns over the kings of the earth (who will agree to destroy it).  Rev. 17 16-17.
:  It is the very center of world trade.  Rev. 18
:  It has a deep water port where all the world's ships come.  Rev. 18 17
:  It it from where evil is spread throughout the world.  Rev 18 3
:  It is called MYSTERY BABYLON, which seems to tell us something is not as it seems, or behind the scenes activities; power brokers, occult? Rev. 17 5

Currently there is only one city on earth that can be described as all the above; New York.  

If you are going to use the bible to prove something you must use the WHOLE bible.  Not just the verses that fits your needs.  Now let's read another requirement of the women;

Rev.17
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Now there are some cities that have been built on (7) mountains, but there is only ONE city, built on (7) mountains that fits ALL of the other requirements.  Let's read some of them;


[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

When God speaks of fornication outside of the human experience He is speaking about serving other God's.  We are the bride and if we serve any other God other than the true and living God it is fornication.  So here we have the kings of the earth and the people serving other Gods, so much so that we have become drunk.

Now what women gave us other God's to serve? 
[3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Let's read another;

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

So this women is clothed with the colors PURPLE AND SCARLET, is decked with precious stones and holds a GOLDEN CUP!  Let's read more;

[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

So this woman, let's call her MOTHER, had children.  So others BRANCHED off from the MOTHER.....dare we say CHURCH?

[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

And this "Mother Church" sits on SEVEN MOUNTAINS!!!

[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

So this "Mother" will one day rule over the kings of the earth.

Rev.18
[3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

So ALL the nations of the earth have been taken in by the "Mothers" false worship (remember the tree decked with silver and gold).  And the merchants of the earth have become rich with her wares, (again, most stores around the world earn one forth of their years earnings during this time of year "Mother" has given us.)

[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

The "Mother" claimes to be the True way, and yes she has gained MUCH wealth.  She even calls herself a QUEEN!  She is not a widow because she does not marry.

[8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

But her time will draw to an end, for God will judge her.

[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
[11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

So the kings of the earth will mourn for her and will no longer buy her wares.

[12] The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

All those things she once held will be of no use.

[15] The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Soon this "Mother" that was once decked in fine linen of PURPLE and SCARLET, decked with gold and precious stones, will no longer be sought after by the merchants.

[17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
[18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
[19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

For in one hour, an instant compared to how long this "Mother" has been around, she will be gone.

Brother......this is NOT New York!




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