Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?

[RB]

VERSE FOUR CONTINUATION.....Did not want to make verse four into another post, so bear with us a little and read it carefully.

Matthew 16:23~But He turned, and said unto Peter, get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: because thou savorest Not the things that be of God, but those that be of Men.""

Those of Satan are not interested in seeing God's will be done, or following God's Word. They are interested in man's lust/will and man's word. The Things that be of God they do not Love. If you quote scripture to them, they generally look at you like you are from another planet to believe such things. ..Why? Because they don't like what God says, they don't want to believe He means it, and they don't want to do what is written as law for them. In the Biblical vernacular, they have forsaken the Word of God, and want to hear smooth things, easy to swallow things, things that tickle the ears~they want to be religious, but in their own way and timing and around their own lust.  Tell them smooth things or deceitful things and this they will receive. Just as Judas believed not the truth but listened to man's lies and briberies, because he loved not the things of God but had pleasure in unrighteousness. And so he betrayed our Lord for a stack of coins. And likewise, these spoken of in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 will do the same.

Have you ever wondered why the time of the cross so closely parallels the time of the end, and the second coming, in almost every aspect? It is because Christ so magnificently identifies 'Himself' with the Church. So much so that it is pictured as the body, and He the Head. This is the marvelous picture of the great Salvation plan God has from the beginning placed in His book. Just as the Holy Temple (Christ) was destroyed, betrayed by one of those claiming to be of Him, so the Holy Temple (The Church) will be destroyed near His second coming by the same method. Those who are a son of perdition, claiming to be a part of the body, but who in reality are wolves in sheep's clothing. Those who are of Satan and "opposing" everything that is of God. When the Church leaders serve man instead of God, they are the man of sin ruling in the Temple.

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 is just another picture of the abomination that God will make desolate standing in The Holy Temple of God of the NT The same which has been spoken about throughout scripture. It is the fulfillment of Daniel and Matthew chapter 24 and other books and chapters that talk about this same end-time event, a precursor of the return of the Lord.

Matthew 24:14~"And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye Therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains."

This is not A.D. 70, that has to be forced into the scriptures~ it is at the end of the world. If we study God's Word carefully then we can come to no other conclusion. Look first at the Context of the verses. It says the gospel will be preached to all the world, and "then" the end will come. Therefore, when ye see the abomination stand in the Holy place, then flee to the mountains. The whole chapter in context is about end time events. Christ was asked when would the Temple be destroyed (verse 3), and what are the signs of His coming and the end of the world? And Christ proceeds to answer the questions. He tells them the signs that will alert them that His return is nigh, (false Christs, prophets, famine, Fig Tree and ALL trees budding, etc.) and says "Therefore", when you see the abomination stand in the Holy place, flee to the Mountain. We can't ignore the fact that verse 14 is talking about the end of the world, and then verse 15 says therefore when you see the abomination in the temple, flee. By the use of the word "therefore"~ God has equated the time when iniquity abounds, love runs cold, false Christ arise, and the time of the end (verse 14), with the abomination that makes desolate (verse 15). To ignore that fact that the two verses go together would be disjointed and tortuous of scripture.

For example, if I explained in several verses how, "It will be -20 degrees outside, how things will freeze, etc.," and in the next verse said, "therefore, when you go outside, you must wear a heavy coat," no one would think to understand it anyway but the way it is written. But because many Christians have been taught certain traditions, they ignore both context and flow of Matthew 24 in order to hold on to whatever error they have been taught. There is no mistaking that Christ is telling us when the Holy Temple of God would be brought to desolation. It will be near the end of the world when abomination stands in it. Not a Non-Holy Temple that was ruined in A.D. 70 (since the A.D. 70 temple was not a sacred Temple of God to qualify for these Prophesies of having abomination stand in what is Holy). Christ was the Fulfillment (completion) of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem (the type) and the only Holy Temple after the cross was the literal body of Christ, the body of Christ which are the believers, and the Corporate Church external Covenant representation of the body of Christ. This is easily proven, conclusively, by scripture. The prophecy of Matthew chapter 24 was addressing the end times when believers would see these signs of spiritual declension. It is further confirmed to be talking about the coming end as verse 21 continues....

Matthew 24:21~"for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. and except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, 70 A.D. doesn't qualify to be the great Tribulation period, "greater than any period ever before" or after~again, one would have to force that interpretation. No matter how much men twist, push, shove, or distort what is said, A.D. 70 doesn't qualify~IMPOSSIBLE!. Neither were those days shortened, because if they weren't, no flesh on earth would have been saved (though just about all misinterpret the sense of saved, but that's another study for another day). That simply didn't happen in those days. With all due respect, it's quite ludicrous and overtly self-serving to declare these pertinent passages were all fulfilled in A.D. 70. Again, notice the word 'then' indicating that these all take place at this time. This Great Tribulation is when the abomination stands in the Holy Place, and is when we reach the end of the world. For then shall be Great Tribulation which had been previously unheard of. The only way any logically thinking person could think that these refer to A.D. 70, or to two entirely separate occurrences, is if his indoctrination in such teachings predisposes him to think that way.

The question is, why is it that people come to the conclusion that the desolation of the Holy Temple was in A.D. 70? The answer is because they are living by sight or by what seems to be, and listening to the reports of man, and not the report of the Bible. They are listening to their teachers, historians, and theorists, rather than letting the Holy Spirit be the teacher, through God's Word. The Theory of A.D. 70 is based upon secular historical accounts, not on scripture. It relies on man's record of what happened in Jerusalem. But God does not base interpretations of His Holy Word on secular man's writings and findings. No matter how trustworthy we might think others are, we don't interpret scripture by man's non-canonical writings. God puts the understanding of His Word in His Word. The fact is, once examined carefully, this theory has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. How could the Jewish Temple be the Holy Place in A.D. 70? It was neither Holy (God ripped the veil separating the Holy Place of the Temple in Jerusalem, from the top to the bottom the instant that Christ died on the cross -Matthew 27:51). That building, a shadow of the true building whose maker is God, fell at the cross. This tearing of the veil of the Temple signified that the Holy place which was a "type" was no longer valid in that Building made with hands. The type had passed into history because it was fulfilled in Christ. A search of the pertinent scriptures would prove that to even the novice Bible student. Nor was this Temple building any longer the Holy Temple "of God". And to say it was makes a mockery of the work and accomplishment of Christ on the Cross. The only Holy Temple of God after the cross is either, Christ, the external Church, or the body of Believers. Nothing else after the cross qualifies as the Holy Temple of God to have further prophecy. The Old Testament Holy Temple of God had been Fulfilled and the New Holy Temple of God is in building in Christ. He is the Chief cornerstone of its building. And the veil separating the Holy Place from then on was not in a Temple made with hands in Jerusalem, but the veil to the Holy of Holiest (the Holy Place) is through His flesh (See and read Hebrews 10:19-20 carefully). This is God's Word, not speculation. Christ Fulfilled the Temple just as he fulfilled the sacrifice. That building in Jerusalem no longer had any "prophetic value" after the cross. To say that the literal Temple in Jerusalem has more scripture to be fulfilled after the cross is to virtually DENY Christ came as the fulfillment and completion of that Temple. Matthew chapter 24 speaks of believers fleeing from the Holy place, "therefore" it cannot be talking about the Jewish Temple after the cross. Such an interpretation simply makes no sense, for it is disjointed. It doesn't fit. Inconsistency piled upon inconsistency.

Jesus also said not one stone would be left standing upon another (Matthew 24:2) in this Temple. He was very specific that it would be not one stone upon another. Of course, some theologians again attempt to "ignore" the fact that stones were left standing one upon another after the literal Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. In fact, you can still find the Temple ruins in Israel with the foundation stones One upon another. Not only the Spirit of truth, but even common sense (which is NOT too common anymore) should tell us that inconsistency is the hallmark of error. Moreover, the prophecy was not only in specifics of the temple, but Christ declared that of all the buildings there, not one stone would be left standing (Mark 13:1-2). If that wasn't enough, Jesus wept over the city and said of the city that it would be laid "even with the ground" and not one stone left standing upon another (Luke 19:43-44). In all these passages, God is 'obviously' taking great pains to show that He's not just saying it's destroyed, He's being specific about the destruction. Just as obvious is that there were stones were left standing one upon another in the city after A.D. 70.

So the question arises, how do professed Christians get around these obvious contradictions to the popular A.D. 70 theory? Most will simply rationalize their inconsistencies away, declaring that, "..Jesus didn't really mean it literally, He could have been using a type of hyperbole or extravagant exaggeration." but the more they wrest the text, the more they entangle themselves in a web. Because first they insist that when Jesus was speaking about this Temple, He was speaking about a literal temple and not spiritually of the Church. Then when it becomes obvious that many of the literal stones of the literal Temple were left standing one on another, (i.e., the prophecy doesn't fit), then they do the exact opposite and declare, on the stones part, He was talking figuratively about not one left standing one upon another.

"Inconsistency is the hallmark of error" -WiseManSay

If the Temple is literal, then the stones which Christ was very specific about, must also be Literal. And if the stones not left standing are not literal, then the Temple which they consist in cannot be Literal. But you cannot say that this is a literal Temple but when the stones fall they're not real falling stones, but an exaggeration or speaking figuratively about none left standing one upon another. You can't have it both ways where it's (in the same temple) both literal when man sees fit, and then figurative when literal doesn't fit. For then we are not conforming to what scripture says, we're trying to make scripture conform to what we believe.

The Temple fell once at the cross, and it's rebuilding (building again) was in Christ. He was the Chief cornerstone of that building. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It's not a physical building in Jerusalem, and it wasn't so in A.D. 70 . The Holy Temple fell once at the cross, and the Holy Temple which is the Church falls once near the end of the world. This is why Christ so closely identifies the Church with Himself. The Buyers and sellers were in this temple at Christ's first advent, and they will be again at His second advent.

If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:20~"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an Holy Temple in the Lord."

There it is in God's Word, for all to see. We (the Church) are the earthly representation of the Holy Temple of God (after the Cross). God said that, not Man. Man says the Holy Temple is made with hands and still consists of literal bricks and Mortar, but God defines it differently after Christ fulfilled it. These teachers are making the exact same mistake that the Jewish people made when Jesus told them as much. When Jesus threw the Buyers and Sellers out of the Temple, the people asked for a sign showing He had authority to do these things? In reply, Jesus gave them a sign. He said, "Destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up." Yet all the people could think about was the literal Temple that they were standing in front of which He had just thrown the buyers and Sellers out of. Their minds were on the earthly or literal bricks and Mortar Temple. But God's ways were far above man's ways, and He wasn't talking about that Temple building, He was talking about the Body of Christ.

You would have thought Christians would have learned a lesson. Because that is exactly why it is there. As a lesson to us. When the scriptures said that Elias must come first, the people were baffled, because John the Baptist wasn't Elias incarnate. But nevertheless he 'was' the fulfillment of 'that' scripture of Elijah's coming. The people just didn't understand how God uses prophecy in the spiritual sense. John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, but he came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah. In other words, Spiritually speaking (Luke 1:17), he was like Elijah because he had the same Spirit of witness and prophecy. Professed Christians just don't seem to learn from Biblical History. Again, we can see how the people in the time of the first advent thought that Christ came to set up an earthly Kingdom. They didn't understand that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom, and He didn't come to reign on an earthly throne, but that by his ascension to the throne, we would become kings and priests unto our God and reign on earth through Him. Setting up an earthly Kingdom is man's idea. Christ told us plainly that His kingdom was now "not" of this world, but it was already within their midst and they could not recognize this truth  If we have Christ dwell within us, we are members of that Kingdom and do reign. Those worldly kingdoms of Biblical history were a 'type' (as David's) signifying a greater rule, and with His coming the types were fulfilled. Yet today, there are those who make the exact same mistake as Israel did. They tell you Christ is coming back to govern and to reign on this sin cursed earth. Just as Israel before them, these theologians are missing the point. His Kingdom is not a earthly one, it's a heavenly one. His kingdom not of this world, but in this world in the camp of the saints.

Likewise, the old Temple fell at the cross, and the 'Building Again' is in Christ. It's foundation is the Apostles, and we are built up on them.

1st Peter 2:5~"Ye also as living Stones, are built up a spiritual house.."

That's not speculation on the stones of the Temple, or from the desks of archaeologists, or the pens of secular historians. That's not from the mouth of man, that's the Word directly from the mouth of God. When the man of lawlessness or sin takes a seat in The Temple of God, this is speaking of sinful man taking a ruling position in the Church. The Church is the Temple of God.

This is all in conjunction with the Prophecy of Revelation chapter 20. When Satan is loosed, he will go forth deceiving and bring the wicked against the camp of the saints (The only Saints in this world is the believers, the Church). He will bring them against the Holy City (The only city that is holy 'after the cross' is the Church). If you think any other city is Holy besides the City set upon a Hill that can't be hid (Matthew 5:14), you are deceiving yourself. Satan attacks the household of God by bringing deceivers into it. This is what is illustrated in chapters such as 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, Revelation 20, and Matthew 24. It is Satan's deception that has people believing a lie. False teachers bringing false gospels are signs and lying wonders where people are not worshiping the God of the Bible, but are worshiping a false god. A god of their own construction and image. A god after the imagination of their own hearts. The God of the Bible is worshiped by keeping His commandments or laws and teaching his truths even if unpopular and hated by the masses. But these are identified or made manifest in that they don't "keep" the laws of God, or teach his truths, but are lawless and ungodly. They have become the man of sin instead of the man of God.

The overview of verse four of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, is that God is telling us that Satan indwells the man of sin (lawlessness), the son of perdition, just as he did with Judas, so that he will be deceived and betray Christ. Satan thus rules in the temple of God through the servitude of lawless man, and not a few by many. And by man ruling as if he is God, he exalts himself above the true ruler, thus displaying himself as being God Himself. This is the humanistic teachings of the unfaithful Church, which in essence proclaim man has the right to choose his own path, to hold to opinion and to do whatever he decides is right, regardless of what God's law actually says. i.e., manipulate God's word. But the true Saints of God will not be unequally yoked with idolatry of any kind (2nd Corinthians 6:16), and so they will come out of this Temple that has become filled with abomination, that we not be partaker with her sins. When professed Christians will not obey God's Word, the Lord speaks of this as building a house not upon Christ (The Solid Rock), but upon the shifting foundation of earth or sand. And that is precisely why the Holy Temple is brought to desolation. Because it is not built on the Solid Rock. It forsakes the word of God (Apostasy) and so falls to its own destruction.

Luke 6:48-49~"He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a Rock: and when the flood arose the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a Rock. BUT he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell and the ruin of that house was great."

Just as the ruin of Judas was brought to desolation (Acts 1:16-20) though he was numbered with the Apostles, so the ruin of every man who is a son of perdition and will not listen to the Word of God will be brought to desolation. Their house will be brought to desolation because their house will be a den of thieves, as Judas. It will not be the house of God, but fall headlong as the house of Satan. And great will be the ruin of that house. Such abomination is brought to desolation.

Verse five....next.

[Rella]

Hi Rella,

You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used.  Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed  in the past from John's perspective.  The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days.   This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing. 

John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19).  The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen. 

My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means.  I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term.  You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently.  That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time.  We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6.  No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.  But I will repeat it again if necessary.     

And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe.  It's not.  The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7.   The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained.  The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers.  You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God.   Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God.  The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.   

That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven.  It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive.  You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.

Just a small FYI

I will be addressing this post later today or tomorrow.

I had a comprehensive response that I was rereading for spelling and grammar when I had to be out of the house.

When I came back all my hours of work have gone poof     so I will need time to reconstruct things.

I'll be back

[Rella]

Hi Rella,

Hi 3Rs,

Here is my second attempt to respond to you on this reply.

You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used.  Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed  in the past from John's perspective.  The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days.   This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing. 

No it does not. Not exactly.

Read the verse of Rev 12:12. ( KJ is used for expediency)

 Revelation 12:12, KJV: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (interlinear states  ~  that a short (oligon)  time (kairon) he has.

This is not a past tense wording. "for the devil is come down to you. 

In fact... let's read all of Rev 12 : 1through vs 13. I include vs 13 as it  is the reason for these verses.

Chapter 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (They had been removed from what they were familiar with.)

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19).  The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen. 

You have not made the case for the 1000 years being in the PAST things.

And neither has Rev 1:19.... , and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means.  I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term.  You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently.  That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time.  We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6.  No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.  But I will repeat it again if necessary. 

We did. But I find them to be of importance and I do not think they ever should be left out.   

And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe.  It's not. 

Yes, it is.

The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7.   The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained.  The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers.  You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God.   Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God.  The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.   

That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven.  It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive.  You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.

Am I? I think that various translations are self explanatory in my beliefs.

Once again I am posting Rev 20: King Jimmy's version....

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Right here I see your error.)

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

At this point it is important to note that Rev 12:12 states Satan "because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
and not confuse it with Rev 20:7 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

They seem to say the same thing.... but they don't. Satan knows he has but a short time once he is permanently cast to earth because Jesus was born and Satan knows God's salvation plan is in full swing and he is desperate to interfere with that and as many people as he can.

He must be loosed a little season..... then Satan is let loose for one last time to come upon our earth to try and cause one more round of trouble, and to try and pull those away from worship of God/Jesus into final destruction. He will offer one final rebellion against God and His saints.

But I want to show you some translations of REV 20: 3. (Many that support my contention that the abyss is indeed a definite place and a place that could be sealed over.

As you read these I have made the important words red, for easily seeing them....

Keep in mind my Greek interlinear states
Rev 20:3 And shut him in, and sealed over him ( not sealed him but sealed over him)

American Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ASV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.

The Bible in Basic English
Revelation 20:3 (BBE) And put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him, so that he might put the nations in error no longer, till the thousand years were ended: after this he will be let loose for a little time.

Common English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CEB) He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. This was to keep him from continuing to deceive the nations until the thousand years were over. After this he must be released for a little while.

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (CEBA) He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. This was to keep him from continuing to deceive the nations until the thousand years were over. After this he must be released for a little while.

The Complete Jewish Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CJB) He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CSB) He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.

The Darby Translation
Revelation 20:3 (DBY) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he should not any more deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little time.

English Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ESV) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Good News Translation
Revelation 20:3 (GNT) The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set loose for a little while.

Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (GNTA) The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set loose for a little while.

GOD'S WORD Translation
Revelation 20:3 (GW) He threw it into the bottomless pit. The angel shut and sealed the pit over the serpent to keep it from deceiving the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were over. After that it must be set free for a little while.

Hebrew Names Version
Revelation 20:3 (HNV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Revelation 20:3 (JUB) and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon it, that he should deceive the Gentiles no more, until the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after it is necessary that he be loosed a little while.

King James Version
Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

King James Version w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (KJVA) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up , and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Lexham English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (LEB) and threw him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] above him, in order that he could not deceive the nations again until the thousand years are completed. After these [things] it is necessary [for] him to be released [for] a short time.

The Message Bible
Revelation 20:3 (MSG) dumped him into the Abyss, slammed it shut and sealed it tight. No more trouble out of him, deceiving the nations - until the thousand years are up. After that he has to be let loose briefly.

New American Standard Bible
Revelation 20:3 (NAS) and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

New Century Version
Revelation 20:3 (NCV) Then he threw him into the bottomless pit, closed it, and locked it over him. The angel did this so he could not trick the people of the earth anymore until the thousand years were ended. After a thousand years he must be set free for a short time.

New International Reader's Version
Revelation 20:3 (NIRV) Then he threw him into the Abyss. He locked it and sealed him in. This was to keep Satan from fooling the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

New International Version
Revelation 20:3 (NIV) He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

New King James Version
Revelation 20:3 (NKJV) and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

New Living Translation
Revelation 20:3 (NLT) The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.

New Revised Standard
Revelation 20:3 (NRS) and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.

New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (NRSA) and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Hisgalus 20:3 (OJB) And threw him into the Tehom (Abyss), and shut and sealed it over him that he could not deceive any more the Goyim until the elef shanim (thousand years) were completed. After these things it is necessary for him to be released a short time. [DANIEL 6:17]

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Revelation 20:3 (RHE) And he cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time.

Revised Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (RSV) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.

Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (RSVA) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.

World English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (WEB) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rella,

My sympathies on losing your first long post.  When that happens around here, makes me want to stab an ice pick into the brain of the computer's hard drive.  But I trust you retrieved enough of it from memory for your second post here.

I would challenge you on thinking that the words "IS come" in the KJV of Revelation 12:12 are in the present tense .  This just means "HAS come", as many of the other translations rightly translate it so. 

Let me give another pretty clear example of "IS come" being used in the same way (using the KJV).  When Christ was casting out devils in the days of His earthly ministry, He told the cynical, doubting ones among the people, "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God IS COME upon you."   Because the kingdom of God in the person of Christ had already come upon them earlier, then Christ's casting out devils was providing the indisputable proof of that which had already happened.

It's the very same with John saying that "the Devil IS come down unto you".  Satan had already come down to harass the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, and they were to beware of his wrathful activity, because he had only a "short time" left since he had been loosed on earth to do his deceptive damage.

If you still think that the abyss (abusson) or the bottomless pit is an actual physical location, then you need to tell us where that pit was located when Christ was in it while He was dead.  This is mentioned in Romans 10:6-7.  "Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep?" (the abusson) "(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"  Christ's physical body being in a lifeless state in the tomb was the equivalent of Christ being in the "abyss": a non-functioning condition.   Just as the Devil's chain kept his deception of the nations in a non-functioning condition for those thousand years.   

You at least can admit that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and the "little season" of Satan's being loosed in Revelation 20:3 "...seem to say the same thing...", even though you ultimately deny that they do.  This "loosing" of Satan in the context comes just after the woman's child was "caught up to God and His throne"  (Christ's ascension in Revelation 12:5).  Satan's loosing and consequent persecution of the woman are very obviously the persecution of the early church which broke out the very day of Stephen's martyrdom, led in great part by Saul / Paul's efforts. 

Because of Saul / Paul's persecution, the members of the early church fled into the countryside away from Jerusalem, just as the woman also fled into the wilderness.  That "flood" cast out by the Dragon / Satan trying to overcome the fleeing woman was that "exceeding mad" torment which Saul / Paul caused among the church; imprisoning, killing, and causing some to blaspheme to avoid death - all with the full support and authorization of the antagonistic high priesthood.  Saul / Paul even pursued the believers to "strange cities", bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial and imprisonment. 

When Saul / Paul was miraculously converted, the Dragon lost one of his great tools of oppressing the early church.  This is how that "flood" of persecution by Saul / Paul was swallowed up in Revelation 12:16.  It made the Dragon even angrier, so that he "went to make war with the remnant of her seed".  This was Satan operating in full, infuriated battle mode - like the "roaring lion" which Peter called him in those first-century days.  This was the "great wrath" of a loosed Satan in Revelation 12:12, which John reminded the church was then occurring for them.

You spoke of Revelation 20:4-6 not being left out of the discussion.  These 3 verses are directly linked to the early church and Christ's resurrection day.  Immediately after Christ's resurrection, the disciples were then seated on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel by supervising affairs of the early church for the believing Jews in Jerusalem.  These were the very same "thrones" in Revelation 20:4, with the power to judge being given to those sitting on those thrones.    Christ had promised that these 12 thrones along with the job of judging the 12 tribes of Israel would be given to the 12 disciples on His resurrection day in Matthew 19:28.   That promise anchors this section of scripture to the period of time immediately following Christ's resurrection. 

That "remnant of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 which came to life again after the thousand years had finished was called the "First resurrection".  Even RB acknowledges that Christ's resurrection was the "First resurrection".  This "First resurrection" of Christ's also included the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming to life again.  THEY were the "remnant of the dead", or the relatively small fraction of resurrected saints who were included in this "First resurrection" event.  They were all "blessed and holy", because it was only saints who were raised to life again in Matthew 27:52-53.  And they had each reigned with Christ at some point of time during those thousand years when Satan had been bound (from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33).


You have gone to a great deal of trouble to copy versions which say that the "seal" was "OVER" Satan and not ON him for those thousand days.  I'm sorry, but this is actually immaterial.  A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time.   This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time.  Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved. 

As was Satan's deception reserved, by being stalled for a thousand years.  By God's design, Satan's deception would be loosed on the world again from AD 33 onward for a particular purpose: to allow the "strong delusion that they should believe a lie, that they might all be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).  This was the great lie that the Zealots believed in: a military Messiah that would conquer Rome and bring a physical kingdom for the Jews in Israel to rule the world. 

This great surge of deception by Satan was only justice for those who had rejected their own prophesied Messiah's coming in the flesh.  Christ had mercifully cast out devils right and left out of His people during His earthly ministry.  As a result of their ultimate rejection of Him, those same devils would return with seven more devils even more wicked than they were.  These would all be allowed to oppress the citizens who had rejected Christ Jesus the Messiah - making their last state worse than their first state when Christ was among them.

Rella, you seem to anticipate that this ramped up demonic oppression will come upon the world in our future.  It won't.  This particular judgment was one which Christ said would apply to that "wicked generation" to whom He had personally ministered (Matthew 12:45).  That "wicked generation" and their own children passed away almost 2,000 years ago, so this will not be something that any generation since then will experience.  Sorry to disappoint!

 

[RB]

A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time.   This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time.  Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved.

I just want to clear the air on a couple of of thoughts before continuing my post through 2nd Thess.

I agree with you on what you have said above concerning the seal of God. Also, the bottomless pit is not an actual place~on these two points we agree.

But, you made one that's not so (along with others) concerning what I believe which I want to correct.

Even RB acknowledges that Christ's resurrection was the "First resurrection".

I will only say this for now~the doctrine of the first resurrection is the new birth, and all who are born again, the second death has no power over them.

RB~later.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:5~"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Even though these things were not to take place in their time, He had taught them about it when with them, and is repeating the prophecy here both for their state of mind, and for us. This teaching is really a warning to the faithful against degradation and adulteration, and to the unfaithful about the judgments of such unfaithfulness. But more than a simple statement by Paul to those at Thessalonica, I believe that under the inspiration of God this is an exhortation by the lord that He has told "all of us" these things in Christ's teachings, and that we should now bring it to mind with this statement. The Lord works in marvelous ways, and one way is to address something to the Church at Philipi, or Corinthians, or Romans, and have it "truly" be to the whole Church, not simply to those immediate individuals to whom it is addressed, or speaking to at that particular moment in time.

Regardless, Christ did tell the Church these things when He was here with them on earth. For example in Matthew Chapter 24 where He told the Church about His coming, and those who would be deceived of Satan near the end of the world~which is exactly what Paul is saying here before us. When He was asked when the Temple would be destroyed, and when would be the sign of His coming, and when would be the end of the world, Christ started telling them all these things signifying how many false prophets and false Christs' would arise (verse 5), Kingdom against Kingdom (verse 7) and there would be affliction that they would be hated of all for His name's sake (verse 9). He declared that many false teachers would arise and deceive many (verse 11) and that he that shall endure to the end would be saved (verse 13). He said that this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness and then the end would come (verse 14). This is the exact same teaching we see in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2.

You will note that among the countless inconsistencies of those Theologians who teach that this all speaks about A.D. 70 is that it blatantly ignores content, context, and flow. Many chop this chapter up like cold turkey, claiming one verse deals with A.D. 70, and the next verses deal with all through time, and still the next verses deal with the end of the world. This theological view is tortuous of the text here, for it is all talking about the same time period. God is Not the author of confusion. You cannot go to the Bible interpreting one verse in one time and space, and the next in another time and space, and then in the next you go back to the first time. There is no Biblical justification for doing so.

The correlation between the apostasy of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, and the apostasy of Matthew chapter 24, is self evident by comparing scripture with scripture. This is the time of Christ's soon return, when Satan is loosed and deceives so many of the world with false gospel, that it is a time of such Great tribulation as never before.

Yes, Jesus has told us before. When He was with the Apostles on the earth He told them (and us) all about this falling away or increase in iniquity, and this time when many false prophets would deceive the Church. But not a lot of Christians are listening. They ask, 'where did He tell us that?' Show them where there is Great Tribulation prophesied near the end of the world, and they will ask again, where does it say that? You show them where, and they'll retort, that's just your interpretation. The Church today cannot see what is right before their eyes because they are too busy turning to the right hand and to the left in order to avoid the truth right in front of them. But The Word of God has told it time and time again, in one way and another. Just as Paul does in this verse of 2nd Thessalonians. He says, "remember ye not that when I was with you, I told you these things." And as Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, so Jesus says in Matthew chapter 24:25 when talking about these very same things,

".....Behold, I have TOLD you before"~We should by the Spirit be starting to get the picture. We have been told before. The teacher prophet told us before. Paul has told us before. Christ has told us before. God has told us before. There is no excuse for us not knowing about the coming apostasy and the great deception of Satan which is to come, because we have been told before. ..and if we don't hear it, then perhaps it's because we're not listening.

Mark 13:22-23~"for false Christ's and false Prophets shall arise and shall Shew SIGNS and WONDERS, to SEDUCE if it were possible, even the very elect.
But take heed: Behold, I have foretold you all things."

Who is Christ talking to there? Was He just talking to those who were standing there at the time, or is He talking to them, you and me?

Mark 13:37~And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So, the question is clearly answered by Christ himself! ! He has foretold them/us all these things about this apostasy. What are these signs and Wonders? Were they in A.D. 70? Certainly not. Satan wasn't loosed in A.D. 70 so that there was Great Tribulation such as never was before in the history of the world, nor ever would be. Despite the protests by some, it doesn't qualify for fulfillment of these scriptures.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9~  "Even Him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and lying signs and Wonders."

This is what the prophecies of Matthew and Mark were talking about. Just as we read in 2nd Thessalonians 2 as it talked about the time of the end, and the coming of the Lord. Likewise, Mark and Matthew prophesy this. The Bible says when Satan is loosed, he goes forth deceiving, and that this deceiving is a sign and lying wonders. This is illustrated in many places and can only be false prophets and false teachers who come to seduce the Church.

The overview of verse five is that here God is alerting us that these are not new things. God has told us of this before. When speaking of false Christs' and false prophets coming, Christ said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." - Mark 13:23. He has told us before. But who has believed His report, or in other words, who is listening to what He is really saying? He who hath an ear to hear will receive the love of the truth of scripture, while the rest will ignore its meaning. So when God says, "Behold, I have told you before," He gives no guarantee, He'll tell you again. For revelation is by the grace of God.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

This verse shall help us greatly in determining the timeline of end-time events.

Later~RB

[Rella]

You have gone to a great deal of trouble to copy versions which say that the "seal" was "OVER" Satan and not ON him for those thousand days.  I'm sorry, but this is actually immaterial.  A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time.   This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time.  Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved. 

No, you do not disappoint me. You are set in your mind as I am.

You are convinced that the abyss was not an actual place of confinement
for Satan and you have insisted the seal was actually upon Satan that would keep him from being so dastardly for those 1000 years, while he had a certain freedom to roam about.

You state your opinion that "A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time".

I should comment that a seal could well be used to seal up something for that same period of time.

But before we depart exchanging on these points, however brief they might be would you explain what you believe they meant by the "partial"
verses I list below. All Rev 20:3.

IOW... When you would read from the Greek Interlinear ... And shut him in, and sealed over him .  What was he being shut into?

Why do these all indicate Satan was shut in something and that something was sealed over so he could not get out and wander about......

You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.

You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible.

But you can place a seal upon something to remain in place until it is opened... Just like a waxed seal on an envelope.

You have shared that your opinion is he was not shut into anything, nor cast ( thrown) into any kind of a pit... bottomless or other. I disagree as do those translators of all those below.

When Greek and Aramaic bibles both of which would have been closer to the time of the happening... why do you say they are wrong? Where is your proof.....?

My list from yesterday is added to with

Geneva Bible of 1587 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and he shut him vp, and sealed the doore vpon him,  (You cannot have a door if there is nothing to keep behind it)

Worell New Testament
into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him,

The Passion Translation
threw him into the pit, locked it, and sealed it

1599 Geneva Bible
 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and he shut him up, and sealed the door upon him

And my list previously


American Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ASV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him,

The Bible in Basic English
put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him,(NOTICE SHUT AND LOCKED)

Common English Bible
threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it (NOTICE LOCKED)

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
 He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. (NOTICE LOCKED)

The Complete Jewish Bible
threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; (NOTICE LOCKED)

Holman Christian Standard Bible
 threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal

The Darby Translation
 cast him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him,

English Standard Version
threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,

Good News Translation
 threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, (NOTICE LOCKED)

Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
 threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, (NOTICE LOCKED)

GOD'S WORD Translation
threw it into the bottomless pit. The angel shut and sealed the pit

Hebrew Names Version
cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it

Jubilee Bible 2000
 him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon it,

Lexham English Bible
threw him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] above him,

The Message Bible
 dumped him into the Abyss, slammed it shut and sealed it tight.

New American Standard Bible
 threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed

New Century Version
 threw him into the bottomless pit, closed it, and locked it (NOTICE CLOSED AND LOCKED)

New International Reader's Version
 threw him into the Abyss. He locked it and sealed him in. (NOTICE LOCKED AND SEALED)
New International Version
threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him,

New Living Translation
 threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked (NOTICE : LOCKED)

New Revised Standard
 threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him,

New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
 threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him,

Orthodox Jewish Bible
 threw him into the Tehom (Abyss), and shut and sealed it over him

Revised Standard Version
 threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,

Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
 threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,

World English Bible
 cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him,

[3 Resurrections]

"You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.

You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible."

This is incorrect, Rella.  It is most certainly the case in scripture, many times.  Remember Revelation 3:7-8.  It says, "...These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it..."  This was speaking figuratively, of course.  God was not placing a door made of literal planks of wood in front of this church.  He was speaking of an opportunity for this Philadelphia church, which would be wide open for them to take advantage of it, and with no man being able to prevent them from doing so. 

You should also remember the vision Zechariah 5 had of the woman cast into the basket, with a lead weight put on top of the ephah basket to keep that "wickedness" restrained within the basket.  This was not a literal basket, a literal lead weight, or literal stork-like wings on the women lifting this basket into the air and taking it to Babylon.  There was all kind of symbolism going on here to convey a prophecy of a literal event in Zechariah's near future.  This symbolism represented the time during the post-exilic return of putting away the foreign wives from among the Jews, in obedience to God's commands.     

Remember also the "gates of Hell" which would not be able to withstand the ongoing triumph of the church's progress in this world.  This is not literal gates of iron bars behind which the physically dead of Hades are imprisoned, since there is no location in the universe where physical gates are needed to confine the physically dead in one spot.  This is symbolism and metaphor going on, indicating that the physically dead are separated from the living by an inaccessible barrier between them. 

You remember also, I'm sure, that Christ told Peter that He was giving him the "keys" of the kingdom of heaven.  What Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and what Peter loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19).  This was not literal keys to a literal door.  It was symbolism and metaphor again.   

For the angel to put a seal over Satan in the abyss was to reserve Satan in that state of his deception being restricted for that exact period of a thousand years of time.  The seal merely represented that Satan had no way of altering his restricted state until that time had "expired". 

I have not said that the Greek and Aramaic translations are wrong.  What I am saying is that the Eastern mind used words as pictured representations to convey a vivid impression of what would happen in real time.  The Western mind tends to think in more concrete terms, without as much pictorial language.  It's actually a more poetic way of writing.  Like David writing in Psalms 6:6 "All night make I my bed to swim, and water my couch with my tears".  This gives the sense of David's great grief much better than if he simply said, "I cried a lot all night long until my pillow got wet."  Unless you believe that beds can literally swim at our command, in which case, I can't help you. 

[Rella]

"You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.

You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible."

This is incorrect, Rella.  It is most certainly the case in scripture, many times.  Remember Revelation 3:7-8.  It says, "...These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it..."  This was speaking figuratively, of course.  God was not placing a door made of literal planks of wood in front of this church.  He was speaking of an opportunity for this Philadelphia church, which would be wide open for them to take advantage of it, and with no man being able to prevent them from doing so. 

You should also remember the vision Zechariah 5 had of the woman cast into the basket, with a lead weight put on top of the ephah basket to keep that "wickedness" restrained within the basket.  This was not a literal basket, a literal lead weight, or literal stork-like wings on the women lifting this basket into the air and taking it to Babylon.  There was all kind of symbolism going on here to convey a prophecy of a literal event in Zechariah's near future.  This symbolism represented the time during the post-exilic return of putting away the foreign wives from among the Jews, in obedience to God's commands.     

Remember also the "gates of Hell" which would not be able to withstand the ongoing triumph of the church's progress in this world.  This is not literal gates of iron bars behind which the physically dead of Hades are imprisoned, since there is no location in the universe where physical gates are needed to confine the physically dead in one spot.  This is symbolism and metaphor going on, indicating that the physically dead are separated from the living by an inaccessible barrier between them. 

You remember also, I'm sure, that Christ told Peter that He was giving him the "keys" of the kingdom of heaven.  What Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and what Peter loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19).  This was not literal keys to a literal door.  It was symbolism and metaphor again.   

For the angel to put a seal over Satan in the abyss was to reserve Satan in that state of his deception being restricted for that exact period of a thousand years of time.  The seal merely represented that Satan had no way of altering his restricted state until that time had "expired". 

I have not said that the Greek and Aramaic translations are wrong.  What I am saying is that the Eastern mind used words as pictured representations to convey a vivid impression of what would happen in real time.  The Western mind tends to think in more concrete terms, without as much pictorial language.  It's actually a more poetic way of writing.  Like David writing in Psalms 6:6 "All night make I my bed to swim, and water my couch with my tears".  This gives the sense of David's great grief much better than if he simply said, "I cried a lot all night long until my pillow got wet."  Unless you believe that beds can literally swim at our command, in which case, I can't help you.

Whatever 

We will remain in disagreement and add this to our lists of disagreements......

Until you know the meaning of what is, is... and I am not referring to its use in Rev 12.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:5~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

The word withholdeth means to "hold down"~ It is illustrating a restraint. The question then is, what is being restrained, or who is doing the ''Holding Down~holding back"? This is a scripture that many theologians conveniently skirt over quickly or give superficial attention to, because then they can continue to parrot the line that the iniquity or the wickedness in Satan was not bound at the cross~when the scriptures clearly teach it was indeed. Once you honestly addressed this question, you can only come to the conclusion that the iniquity of Satan (at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians) was being restrained or held down, held back of God that the spirit of Antichrist not be revealed until his appointed time. These verses make clear that the spirit of Satan was bound or being held down until the time period of the second coming of the Lord was at hand. Lest we forget, and we do so quickly, that's what the beginning verses of this chapter illustrated. Christ couldn't come "until" after this Apostasy under the power of Satan would occur in the Holy Temple of God.

It is often helpful to look at this logically as well as Biblically. How do we know that this is Satan being restrained until this set time? We know it because God tells us that this wickedness or lawlessness that would be revealed, was already at work at the time this epistle was written (around 2000 years ago)~and actually even all the way back to the Garden of Eden. And yet, clearly, God declares that it would also be loosed or unrestrained at an appointed time (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). The coming of the man of sin is according to the workings of Satan with all signs and lying wonders to deceive. By sound exegesis and Biblical induction, we can only conclude that the only wicked presence or coming that could be at work in the world at that time, yet be bound or restrained (held Down) for 2000 years to be released at the appointed time to deceive the peoples of the world and bring about the man of lawlessness, is Satan. The unadulterated truth is, it can only be Satan. He is the only spirit who can qualify to live that long working evil in the world continually and yet has been held down to be loosed when God allows. The evil spirit being called Satan, the old serpent, the Dragon, is the only one who qualifies here~he works THROUGH his children the generation of evil and wicked little serpents. That is to say, if we follow scripture, and not the imaginations of men. He is that evil Spirit of iniquity which was bound at the cross, to be loosed at the appointed little season.

This loosing of restraint of iniquity by no coincidence matches the language of Satan being bound, and then loosed near the end of the world as recorded in Revelation Chapter 20~the timeline is one and the same. There too when he is loosed he goes forth deceiving the world and to accost the camp of the saints (the very elect...the Church). These things are consistent and agree right down the line not because it is a coincidence, but because it is God-breathed and the truth. More on this subject when we deal with verse 9.

The iniquity being held down or restrained is the work of the spirit of Satan. It IS the spirit of Antichrist. He was already in the world then, and yet was also coming in the future when he is to be loosed with greater power to deceive than ever before, the such the world has never see~and TV will be the very means of helping his deception on Gog and Magog. Is it a contradiction that Satan was restrained, yet working in the world? No, not when we understand all the scriptures in their proper context/sense. Satan is the prince of this world, he goes about as a roaring lion, but that doesn't then mean that Christ didn't defeat him at the cross. By the death and resurrection of Christ Satan was bound, restrained, and made ineffective against the elect. This was done that Christ could free the captives (which we were before we were being born of the Spirit of God). By conquest, He took us from the House of Satan and the habitation of bondage~there's no such thing as a sinner having a free will toward RIGHTEOUSNESS.  He spoiled Satan's house and set free the captivity. Every one of us (the very elect) are sinners that became born again/delivered because we have been freed from the prison-house of Satan. We were slaves to him, and in order to free us, Satan had to be bound. Not bound for the sake of the world, as God allows him still to be the prince of this world, but for our sakes. Christ has been made our Prince as we were delivered from Satan's Kingdom to His. What this means is that Satan was not bound for every soul in the world, but bound so that he could not prevent the Lord's freeing His captives (Luke 11:22, Mark 3:27) and building His Church from the nations. He will only be loosed totally after the testimony of the witnesses of Christ is finished and the Church is built. Then (only for a little season), he will be loosed as judgment, and the Lord will return to Rapture His Church. It must be only a short time because Satan the destroyer is terrible, and there would be no flesh left on earth to be saved with a true understanding of these things. This great evil period has to be only for a short time. This is also why he had to be bound in the first place. To prevent this great evil from taking place the last 2000 years. In other words, so that there could be this time (the New Covenant Church Period) of Peace when all nations 'could' be Saved. But the point is, he was bound for this specific purpose, not so the world could be free of him, but so the Chosen could be free from him. The Gentile world had been deceived by Satan for the most part since the beginning of time, so Satan HAD to be bound so the truth could go into all the world. Not so that the world would be free of bondage to him, but so that the elect could be free of bondage to him. He was bound so that the kingdom of God could reign on earth, and the Church could be built throughout this New Testament period.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this mystery of Iniquity"?

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this spirit of Iniquity"?

#1. It was already bound (held down or restrained) at the time of Paul's writing. And,
#2. It would be loosed or un-restrained before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him.

It's very important that we see those two FACTS, because they contradict the widely held view that the spirit being Satan will be bound sometime in the future, (or he was destroyed in 70 A.D which is ridiculous) and wasn't bound at the cross. These theories cannot stand when carefully compared with all passages of scripture. The Iniquity that is after the working of Satan which will manifest itself in its fulness when he is loosed, was obviously restrained at the cross. It's not something to be bound, it's something that Paul under inspiration of God declared was already restrained, else iniquity would have increased even then and the gospel would not have been as successful as it was at the beginning of Acts of the apostles. The reason the gospel was very successful as it were was that Satan (the spirit of the antichrist) was bound. Jesus Himself (speaking of Satan) said clearly:

  Matthew 12:29~ "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except He first Bind the strong man? and then He will spoil his house."

Anyone with eyes to see will know the spiritual truth of these words. Satan is unquestionably the strong man of this parable, and his goods are those who are under his control (the unsaved). He that seeks to Spoil (take by way of conquest) Satan's property is the Lord Jesus Christ. Unambiguously, God illustrates here that Christ could not build His Church by freeing those in captivity to Satan, except He first bind Satan. That is the picture that Christ (not I) is clearly painting here. This is the same truth taught in Revelation 20:2 where Christ "binds" Satan, OR, limits his power of deception.. Looking at the context of Matthew 12 we see that Christ had authority over Satan by the Power of God (Matthew 12:28), therefore the Kingdom of God had come as Christ spoiled (or seized by right of conquest), Satan's goods. i.e., Christ bound Satan and plundered his house establishing the Kingdom of God. Amen! He didn't fail to do this, He accomplished His task bringing the glorious gift of Salvation to men. But the parable states that He FIRST had to bind Satan before He could do this. This truth is lost on many theologians, but it is nonetheless the Word of God. It is the same truth illustrated in the passage that declares that, "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men"~Ephesians 4: but first He had to lead captivity captive. The prison house of bondage or slavery in which Satan held us is broken. the law to which we had to answer to because of our sin, is fulfilled in His His death and resurrection. And if Christ therefore has made us free, then are we free indeed (John 8:36). Speaking of Christ, we read in Colossians:

Colossians 2:14-15~"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and POWERS, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Exactly what principalities or rules and power did Christ triumph over, and when was this done? The "only" honorable answer is that He triumphed over the power of Satan, and the power he spoiled or divested himself of by His death, is the power Satan had over us. Christ triumphed or gained the victory over Satan for us. He broke the power that Satan had, and He did it at the cross. He by strength greater than Satan's took us from that kingdom (the Kingdom of darkness) and translated us into His Kingdom of light, joy, peace.  And He did this by the power of God and the work of the cross. Christ came for the Lost sheep of the House of Israel, and he took them from the house of the strong (Matthew 12) which no one was able to break free from. Christ destroyed the power of Satan over us.

1st John 3:8b~"..................................... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jeremiah 31:10-11~"Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."

He that was stronger than Israel is power of Satan. Christ redeemed Israel from the hand of Satan (that was stronger than Israel) by the cross. But as Matthew 12:29 declares, first, Christ had to bind him. In doing so, He allowed us to go free from his prison-house of darkness (Isaiah 42:7; Luke 4:18). That's why when Jesus spoke of this binding (luke 11:21-22, Matt 12:29), He said if this be so, then the Kingdom had come.

Luke 11:20~"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you".

He has redeemed us, delivered us from captivity in one kingdom and translated us into Christ's Kingdom.

Colossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son."

So then, at the very least we must confess, Yes, Christ triumphed over Satan, bound him, spoiled his house, and put down his principality or rule. He gave freedom to many of those whom Satan had held in bondage to sin. Indeed the scriptures, again and again, testify to these things.

Hebrews 2:14-15~"...that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the DEVIL; and Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to Bondage.

The Word of God says that by the cross, Christ destroyed Satan in order to deliver us from Bondage by him. That's not my private interpretation or my spin on it, that is what God said there. And it's an important witness, because many Christians do 'mock' at the idea that Satan was put under restraint by the cross. Christ brought Satan down to powerlessness or idleness as far as believers go.  Instead of him ruling over them, they rule over him (Psalms 91:13; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:18; Romans 16:20) By His death He has brought Satan down to idleness against the saints that He could deliver those who all their lifetime were subject in bondage. We DO NOT fear Satan he has nothing over us as a child of God.  Hebrews says, that is what Christ did for us by His death. It's just another way God speaks about the binding or restraining of Satan by His cross, and the spoiling of his house (our deliverance). Matthew 12 and Revelation 20 speaks about it as the binding of Satan, 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 speaks about it as the Holding down or restraining of iniquity, Ephesians 4:8 speaks about it as leading captivity captive to give gifts to men, Mark and Isaiah speak of it as house of the strong man, and ransoming from the hand of the strong. These are all different ways God is saying that we become ruler of the serpent (satan) rather than the serpent ruler over us (Mark 16). They are all talking about the exact same event.

Not for all the world, but for all of the world that are Chosen. For them Christ led captivity captive. For them Satan was bound, or made idle that he cannot desolate the Church or it's work until the time he is loosed and the great Apostasy and tribulation will occur. He's not bound for the unsaved (he goes about as a roaring lion), he is bound so that the Lord's house could be built. He's bound for those who would be set free.[quoteLuke]Luke 4:18~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"[/quote]A clear reference to Isaiah 41:1-7 and Isaiah 61. The fulfilling of the freeing of the captivity. In other words, those who are held captive by Satan, not held by the Roman empire, as surmised by some.

Isaiah 61:1-3~"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified".

Not to set free literal criminals from literal prison houses, but to set free those who have broken the laws of God from the prison-house of Satan. That is the captivity of Israel which Christ came to free (or set at liberty). The Jews (like many theologians today) didn't understand the spiritual nature of prophecy, retorting that they were already free (John 8:33). They didn't understand that they were held in bondage by Satan and Christ came to set them at liberty from 'this' prison. But in order to do that, He first had to bind Satan, or bring him down to idleness against them. Satan was the strong that held them and Christ did destroy Satan through His death. He delivered or 'released' the chosen from Satan's house of bondage, leading him captive to giving gifts to men. The Gift is that we have no more fear of death, because we are brought out of that house of pain. Those best selling authors and highly touted Theologians who don't understand that Satan was bound at the cross, or who arrogantly claim that Jesus didn't need to bind Satan to spoil his house, demonstrate a lack of careful exegesis of the scriptures. Matthew 12:29 says, How could Satan's house be spoiled, unless Satan was first bound? Then and only then could his house be spoiled. That's God's testimony of what "had" to happen versus man's claims that it didn't happen, and wasn't necessary. God's Word is magnificently in total agreement with itself when we let it interpret itself instead of forcing scripture to say what we have been taught by vaunted Theologians.

The overview of 2nd Thessalonians 2:6 is that God is declaring that the Church knows the impediment that hinders Satan's revelation then, that it will be revealed at the time appointed. He declares, "You know what is restraining, that he might be revealed in his time." The question is, what is his time? And the answer is, it's the time near our gathering together to meet the Lord at His second advent. The time when this restraining of Satan is loosed. That which restrains Satan is the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Since Christ bound Satan, and has the keys of Hell and death, only Christ can loose him. This is the angel who came down from heaven who put the seal (security) of God upon Satan when He bound him (Revelation 20:2-3), is He that will loose him at the appointed time. And when the spirit of Satan is loosed, then will the lawless man (transgressor) in the Holy Temple of God be revealed.

[Rella]

2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this spirit of Iniquity"?

#1. It was already bound (held down or restrained) at the time of Paul's writing. And,
#2. It would be loosed or un-restrained before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him.

It's very important that we see those two FACTS, because they contradict the widely held view that the spirit being Satan will be bound sometime in the future, (or he was destroyed in 70 A.D which is ridiculous) and wasn't bound at the cross.

We know 3Rs stand on things and I am in limited agreement with 2 Thes and the restraining of Satan.... but different then you seem to believe. I just do not agree that this restraining of Satan is the end of it.

If  the "Holy Spirit" ( I feel that is his restrainer)  was not restraining him, the earth would be fairly uninhabitable for anyone who was not following after Satan.

It is obvious that at a minimum God is and has been restraining the power of lawlessness. Comparing today with even the recent past shows that this restraint is being progressively relaxed. Surely you must have noticed that yourself?

I cannot help but feel God is preparing to soon release the forces of evil to do their worst. Leading to that battle we call Armageddon.

I know many say that Satan the most powerful force of evil in the universe has already been defeated and  the timer on the end of his evil activities was set when the Jesus walked out of the tomb and defeated sin and death. Therefore, Satan's time is short as is told in Rev 12:12.  I feel the statement that his time is short in this verse is more involved but that is for another time.

 Satan has been called “the prince of the power of the air” (John 12:31; Ephesians 2:2), or “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4), “the accuser” of Christians (Revelation 12:10), and “the deceiver of the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).

And rightfully God certainly has prepared hell as a place of punishment for Satan (Matthew 25:41).

So what of those restrictions put on Satan that have been talked of in the bible?

Jesus had alluded to Satan having a short leash in Luke 22:31-32, when He told Peter that Satan had asked to test Peter .  That clearly proves that Satan has been restrained
from unleashing his will on all of mankind. Reading the book of Job Satan had to abide by God's rules to do no physical harm to Job when he was trying to pull Job's devotion from God.

And For reasons known only to God, Satan is allowed to wreak havoc on the earth until the time God will forever banish him.

So certainly there is a restraint place on Satan.

But here is where I differ with you and others in this thread.

Before we get to Rev 20 we are told in Rev 16:16
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

We all are familiar with the Battle of Armageddon as an end-times battle between the forces of the Satan and the forces of Jesus, after His return.   Satan , the Antichrist, False Prophet, and all the demons serving them  will gather forces together ( Rev 16: 13-14)  at a place called Armageddon, which means “Mount of Meddigo” (Rev 16:16).

This will occur some time after the return of Jesus. At what specific point  which will be after the seven trumpets of Revelation ( read Rev 11), and before the pouring out of the seven bowls of God’s wrath ( read Rev 14).

The battle will occur specifically after the sixth bowl (Rev 16:12-16). The pouring of the sixth bowl dries up the great river Euphrates, to make way for the “kings of the East”.

We are told in Rev 17 In the last days, Jerusalem will be the religious headquarters of the Antichrist.

We are told in Rev 18  It will be destroyed, seemingly after the second coming of Jesus
 
We are told in Rev 19: 17-21 The Battle of Armageddon will be the Antichrist’s final attack against Jesus .

We are told in Rev 20:1-3 This will occur before the millennium, when Satan is bound for a thousand years

IMPORTANT to remember ... The battle of Armageddon IS NOT the final battle between good and evil. .

Satan will lead another battle of his forces against God, when he is released at the end of the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

The Great White Throne judgment will occur after this final battle (Revelation 20:11-15).

We are told in 1  Corinthians 15:24–26  which says, “Then the end will come, when Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’”

Satan’s time of freedom is nearing the end. When Jesus returns, He will be victorious in the battle we call “Armageddon” (Revelation 16:6). It won’t be much of a fight because Jesus annihilates Satan’s forces with the word of his mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 19:21).

To be clear.

It is after his defeat at Armageddon, Satan will be bound for a thousand years “to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time” (Rev 20:3).

At the end of that time, Satan is released; true to form, he leads one more rebellion against Christ and His kingdom (verses 7–9). Again, Satan’s forces are defeated, and Satan himself is “thrown into the lake of burning sulfur” to “be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (verse 10).

There is then one final judgment of all those who have rejected Christ (Revelation 20:11–15). The last act before eternal paradise begins for the children of God is the eternal banishment of sin and of Satan.

So we do have the restraining going on but it is less and less which is obvious to anyone who cares to notice.

We will have the actual sealed over binding of Satan for that 1000 years, after Armageddon. And Armageddon has not happened yet.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:7~"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

This is the verse we touched on earlier. Mystery of Iniquity was already at work at the time of the writing of this epistle, and yet it was being restrained. The word word "letteth" is an old English word which simply means restrains~meaning to hold down, and by implication to prevent one from doing something. For example, if I were to grab someone and hold them down so that they couldn't attack someone, I would be restraining them. That is how this word is used here. To be held down or restrained from doing something.

The mystery of iniquity is Satan working his guile to deceive folks. It all started in the garden of Eden after Eve was created from Adam's rib. We see Satan deceiving folk through his false prophets all through the OT.

The professed churches of the latter days of the last days will be allowed to act outside of God's law without restraint. And this secret or mystery is revealed to the saints as rebellion against the laws of God by man will greatly increase as this world comes to its end. In a word,  the places of worship will become lawlessness, worship that our forefather never dreams of coming to the degree we now see it with our eyes. 

This mystery of Iniquity was already at work when 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 was written and has since the beginning of time~but would be restrained so that the NT Church of Jews and Gentiles could be built. There are those Theologians who like to argue that, "If Satan was bound at the cross, why is there so much evil in the world," or who actually mock declaring that, "He must not have been bound to tightly, because he is sure loose in the world today." I can understand this sentiment in light of the world, but not in the light of the Scripture. First of all, this is what this verse is saying, not something man merely claims that it says. It says Yes, iniquity was already at work in the world even then, and yet it declares it nevertheless was being restrained, and would continue to be restrained until the time when he who restrains it was removed from the midst. God said this~ And for any Christian to mock or deny that is tank foolishness on his part.

We didn't say iniquity was working and yet was restrained, God said that. So all these Theologians who want to argue semantics are arguing with God. How can iniquity be held down if it's up and working in the world~soem would argue? Because "God defines terms", not man! It's not defined by Webster's dictionary of what is bound, restrained, or held down, but God's Word. The fact is, Satan was bound/restrained for a specific reason. He was not so that there would be no more evil in the world, he was not restrained so that the Church would never be persecuted, and he was not held in check so there would be a golden age of purity. He was (as we've clearly seen) bound so that he could not go forth deceiving the nations to the degree he had since the world begun and so he could NOT gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints to "TRY" completely destroy them until after Christ's Church was built. That is why he was bound. Satan has no defense against Christ's onslaught at his gates. When Christ assaults the gates of Satan's Kingdom, He builds His Church with the spoils thereof.

Luke 11:21-22~"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Matthew 16:18~"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Christ assaults satan's gates to build His Church, spoiling his kingdom and translating those He has chosen from that prison house of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord. Nothing will prevent the Church from being built, and that is why Satan was bound. But when the time nears for Christ's return (meaning the Church is complete or nearly complete) then Satan will be loosed, and will deceive again and cause a "great Apostasy" and Tribulation in the world toward the camp of the saints. But only for a little season, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God (1st Peter 4:127). Iniquity is restrained of God, until Christ is removed out of the midst of the temple, the light of the world darkened.

Many have hypothesized about what really restrains sin. Church tradition once held that it was restrained by the law of the Roman Empire. But that didn't last long because after Roman law was long gone, the Church prospered and grew even more. Others theorized that it was the gospel itself being witnessed which restrained sin. This is a much more biblical interpretation, but still does not really get down to the root, or efficacy of the restraint. i.e., sin is not restrained by words (scripture), but by the power of the Word (which is the Spirit).

Again, that which restrains iniquity is referred to as that which restrains (verse 6), and as he which restrains (verse 7). This would seem to indicate a power involving personal agency. Moreover, "we know most assuredly" that the only true restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we have our answer. The Holy Spirit is this restrainer of iniquity of which Paul writes, and which has been doing it's job for around 2000 years since this epistle was penned.

He who is in the midst of the Church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the Churches, then the Spirit is no longer there. Then will the spirit of Satan be loosed to take its place as the substitute, or anti-Christ. This is the time when many false authorities or pseudo Christs' arise because of lack of restraint. In other words, these were already here in the world but were being restrained. In fact, when we look carefully at 2nd Thessalonians verse 7, it is not unlike what we read of Anti-Christ in 1st John:

1st John 4:3~"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it Should Come; and Even Now Already is it in the world."

Is this evil spirit of Anti-Christ Coming? Indeed it is. And yet God said that this spirit was already there in the world even then. It's very easy for some Theologians to mock and say how can Satan be bound when he's loose in the world, or how can Satan be destroyed (made idle down) when he goes about as a roaring lion in the world, but this mocking shows an unbridled ignorance of scriptures. And this verse declaring of the spirit of Antichrist (Satan, the spirit against or opposed to Christ) even then was already in the world, and yet was also coming, illustrates this principle very clearly. Because he was at the time, simply "held Down" that in the future he would be released to come in power which he didn't have the authority to do then.

There are Christians who will tell you that the Antichrist must come. They are absolutely right. But then they tell you it is a single man, and they are totally wrong. No man was already in the world when these passages were written, and will also be in the world when the end comes. This is obviously no single man. It is the spirit of Satan, working his deceivings through men. Not through 'a man,' but through mankind. Only Satan could exist from the time of John, to the time of the second coming. And even though some Theologians try to split hairs in saying, "there are many antichrists but these are the spirit of AntiChrist, not Antichrist. But careful examination of scriptures shows that they are grasping at straws. We read unambiguously that the antichrist was already there at that time also.

  2nd John 1:7~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a DECEIVER and an ANTICHRIST."

This doesn't say The spirit of Antichrist, or The antichrist, it says an "antichrist". Obviously, there are many, and it's not just one man as is popularly theorized. So then, if we have an antichrist at the time of John, and will come to power near the end, then this theory that this is a single man cannot be Biblically validated nor substantiated. Let me say with all due respect to those who believe such things, It can "nowhere" be shown in the scriptures that the Antichrist is one single man who manifests himself near the end. If we let the Bible (and not our imaginations and teachers) "define" what Antichrist is, then we will have no problem understanding scripture, nor God's interpretation. The spirit Satan working through his children is the Antichrist that is to come greater than in all history of this world. TV and the Internet is the means of bringing this to past. The Problem comes in when people ignore how the Word of God defines the spirit antichrist, and accept what some teachers say he is. That is an old and yet continuing mistake in the Church. God defines terms, not preachers, horror movies, tradition or webster's dictionary. The Word of God says a deceiver who confesses not that Jesus is the Christ, is an AntiChrist. And that is because he has the spirit of Satan ruling within him.

Many make the exact same error in defining the man of sin (lawlessness) as they think he also is a single man, the Antichrist. But the man of sin is an Antichrist, not "the" Antichrist. He was here at the time of the writing of scripture, and he will/and has come in our day. Only the spirit of Satan qualifies as both. Antichrist was to come, and yet scripture also said it was already in the world at that time of John. That's exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 means when it says the iniquity was already at work, yet was restrained to be revealed at a future time. Both verses say the same thing. There will come a time when the spirit of Satan will be loosed and iniquity will increase and abound. It is a time of great deceiving when the spirit Satan is loosed. There is no one lawless man coming, but many will be a man of sin or lawlessness. And this man of lawlessness will rule in the Holy Temple in his own authority (as if he is God) and cause its downfall. These evil men who don't follow the laws of God all have one thing in common. They all are sons of the Devil with the spirit of Satan in them. They are sons of Perdition, all in servitude to Satan.

Why is it that the Great Tribulation period could not come upon the world until near the end of Time? What was preventing it? The answer is that it was God of course. This great tribulation and iniquity (Matthew 24) have been prevented from happening for nearly 2000 years because Satan was bound as God builds His Church. Satan could not muster his armies from all the nations to assault the camp of the Saints in a way that would bring this great tribulation (greater than this world has ever seen, nor will see thereafter). Are we to think that Satan didn't want to bring this iniquity and Great tribulation 1000 years ago? 500 year ago? 100 years ago? Surely he does because he is the father of lies and deception, the epitome of Evil. But he was obviously bound from being able to do so by God. He cannot bring it until he is loosed.

The overview of verse seven is that God is telling us that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst). Because of Satan's being bound in this New Testament millennial reign of Christ, many through the years were freed from his captivity, and are risen up to live and reign with Christ in His kingdom. Because of this restraint of Satan many are translated from the power of darkness to the Kingdom of God. The point is, when the time comes, Satan is loosed as God takes His hand of restraint out of the midst of the Church. This is what this verse is declaring. Iniquity was still at work, and yet was restrained until He who retrains it will be taken out of the midst

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:8~"And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming;"

The latter days leading up to the day of the Christ/Lord which are one and the same just before his coming, the THAT WICKEd shall be reveal, but only to those who know the times of the seasons just as Anna and Simeon did in Luke three.
   
When the time comes, and Christ is taken out of the midst of the Church, then will this iniquity or lawlessness of Satan be revealed seen ruling therein~ again known only to a few who have eyes to see and ears to hear.  This is when the times of Jacob's trouble will truly start. In other words, that which has been restrained of God all those years is let loose to do its work with/in men who are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.  The Spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2) will be free to use the man of sin or lawless man to do his will against God and the saints.

Revelation chapter 20 says, then Satan must be loosed a little season. And though it doesn't say in this verse he's loosed a little season, it is clear by the context and language that it is for a short period just before the coming of the Lord. The context after all 'is' (verse 1-3) the return of the Lord when we shall gather to meet Him, and the things which must happen first before that takes place. God declares that He will consume this evil with the Spirit of his mouth (The Word of God) and shall destroy it with the brightness of His coming. Clearly, when the iniquity is loosed the lawless man ruling the spirit of antichrist won't be destroyed until Christ's second coming. And it will be a notable manifestation of Christ, not secret. Not like the "alleged" coming in A.D. 70. All will see Him.

Matthew 24:27~"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and SHINETH even unto the west; so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be."

This passage isn't talking about 70 A.D., or anytime thereabouts. It's talking about Christ coming in "final" judgment and there will not be one eye anywhere on the earth that will not see Him. This is the brightness or notable shining that Christ comes with. The brightness shines from the east even unto the west and none shall be able to hide from His presence. It will lighten every corner. The minute His light shines upon them, the wicked will be undone. And they know they are undone and must stand for the Judgment. They will seek to flee but to no avail.

The overview of verse eight is that it is illustrating to us that when the spirit of Satan is loosed, then will Satan, that wicked one, be revealed as he works within man to bring wickedness upon the earth. In a vain attempt to overthrow God and destroy the very elect.  This is he who the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, which is the Word of God. The wicked shall be destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming and then will man discover that life really wasn't a game after all. Then will be the realization of the seriousness of crimes against the most Holy God.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

This verse tells us who Christ will destroy with the brightness of His coming. He will destroy the man OF SIN, or MAN of sin, whose coming is after the working or operation of Satan, with all signs and "lying" wonders. Again, Satan manifests himself in man, not as a red colored aberration with goat horns a pitch fork with fish hook tail. He doesn't manifest himself as a single man with dark and supernatural powers to spin beds or command dogs, he works (operates) through his generation of serpents.....mankind void of the Spirit of God.  Mainly through false prophets with signs and lying wonders which is a synonym for false gospels.
Note that the man of sin (sinful man) has the primary work of spiritual deception of the Church with the power of false gospels and with/by lying wonders.

He is not the political ruler governing nations, nor does he have military domination~not even connected with military domination, it is mainly religious in nature. The apostasy is obviously of a Christian Church character and is that which welcomes this lawlessness of man. We should not miss the point that if the gospel that people bring is false, then the god that they worship is false. The man of sin (who is not of God) will come with these signs of lying wonders. In other words, in contrast to the true signs and miracles of Salvation, their signs and miracles are of damnation. No one is saved (in a practical sense) by their gospel, but they are deceived into thinking that they are. Their words are SEE THERE, SEE HERE Christ is among us! That's the "lie". These false Prophets say "Peace and Safety" when there is none. There is no Peace with God in their gospel, and there is no Safety in the arms of the Lord when they follow false teachings (despite what some church leaders will tell you). The false gospels deceive the people into thinking they have salvation and try to prove it with sign and wonders for their gospel certainly cannot prove that they are of God. And from all scriptures, we learn that this is exactly what will happen near the end of the world. Satan will be loosed and false Christs (Churches are the body of Christ) and false prophets will abound to deceive even the elect (chosen) if that were possible. But it is not possible, because the Elect don't put stock in man's words, fables, private interpretations, or the writings of secular history. They rely on God's Word only (sola scriptura) as the ultimate authority for truth, that they are not deceived by man's teachings~signs and supposedly wonders.

So when Satan is loosed, he shall come upon the world manifesting himself in false prophets with signs and lying wonders~in our days with TONGUES and the empire in which they have built with their lying gospel.  Again this perfectly mirrors Matthew 24 of Abomination standing in the Holy Place and false Christs, and false prophets arising to deceive even the Elect if that were possible. It is called a time of great tribulation or a time of trouble. As well it would be because when false prophets are loosed in the Holy Temple, they make it abominable and there can be no greater tribulation for true believers. What could be worse than that? What could be more trouble than having the Temple of God brought to desolation by those under Satan's power, deceiving by lying wonders or miracles? Deceived, the Church will not receive the love of truth of God's Word, but they will receive these lying words of wonder. Those bringing the truth will be reviled, spoken evil of, and persecuted as uncompassionate and unloving legalistic and judgmental. This is because they come with the truth of the Word rather than compromise with the way of the world. Those who forsake God's Word the Churches will call caring, and compassionate and Loving Christians. These are confused times when man will give every excuse imaginable for turning away from God's Word, except the truth (that they don't want to obey it). They don't wish to be under God's law, and that is why they are called the man of sin. They have no love for it, as their love has grown cold (Matthew 24:12). This is the man of sin. When you don't want to follow God's Laws, then you will have in your heart hatred for someone who keeps bringing it up (testifying of it) because it has become as a torment to you. This is what Revelation 13:13-14 is talking about when it declares:

Revelation 13:13-14~"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and DECEIVETH them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live."

This is the same spirit of Satan working through false prophets and deceiving many by signs and lying wonders. The same as we see in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. The Beast is "Symbolic" of those men of Satan's Kingdom. Throughout scripture, Beasts symbolize Kingdoms (see Daniel's Beasts for example). The symbolism is Horns like a Lamb (imitating the power of Christ, the Lamb) but speaks like a Dragon. The Dragon is "symbolic" of Satan. In other words, Revelation is saying that they "appear" as the power of Christ, but their words (what they speak) are not word of God, but of the Dragon, Satan. They go forth doing great wonders and deceiving the people on earth by the great miracles they had the power to do in the sight of the Beast (those men of Satan's kingdom). Those of his kingdom see this as miraculous works, but not the faithful children of God. Christ brought the true miracle, but these are of Satan and they bring false miracles. Miracles symbolize salvation. Healing the sick, raising the dead, opening the eyes of the blind, having the deaf to hear, laying hands on the sick and they recover, all these things are representing the true nature of salvation. Christ did the true miracles "representing" true salvation. but the man of sin deceives those who do not love the truth of God's word, by virtue of the "lying miracles" he effects. These are counterfeit miracles or false salvation. False salvation in that people worships the false god (represented by the image or likeness of the beast). They've made their god in the image of themselves, and the kingdom in which they serve. Those who will not worship this false god are spiritually killed. That means all the true believers in the Church are silenced from among their misdt~they are NOT welcome. For the true believers "of the Spirit" can see this abomination in the Holy Place and they speak out against it (unlike those deceived who are overcome of this death). And in standing against this abomination, they are driven from the Churches that their witness is dead (killed). No one mourns the loss of the Witness of truth in the Church at this time, they rejoice.

The two witnesses know a lying miracle when they see it, and they know the fire from heaven (Judgment of God) called, when they see it. And because they testify against the deeds of the Church, they are hated, driven out, killed (in the spiritual sense ~Revelation 11:7), yet they will not be Satan's Slave (marked 666), they will not worship the beast, nor stay in a place that is abominable to God. They will flee to the mountain retreat or refuge, as God had warned them to do. Security is in the mount of God, it is the only retreat in this time of trouble. It is the great mountain Kingdom of the Lord. God has promised, "

Isaiah 11:9~They will not Hurt Nor Destroy, in all My Holy Mountain".

This is the only place we are safe and secure from the Destroyer. And the true believers leaving the unfaithful or harlot churches of course leaves behind them a Dead church, an assembly without life. Without Christians, without Christ, and therefore it is without Life. Christ has been removed from the midst. The believers see this power of Satan ruling there and understand they must flee. For what agreement has the Holy Temple of God with an image of the beast? None!

The Overview of verse nine is that God tells us that when Satan is loosed from his prison, he will come in the form of the man of sin. In other words, the coming of the lawless man is in accord with the activity of Satan. The ruler of the Holy Temple will be acting as an agent of the devil. That is what is meant by, his operation is after the working of Satan. In other words, the man of sin gets his energy from that ruling spirit working within him, which is Satan. This spirit of disobedience moves him to bring false gospels with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish. These false signs and wonders are significations of a false salvation program, as contrasted with the true signs and wonders of the Apostles which illustrated the true salvation in the person of the Son of God where he was made a surety for God's elect.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:10~"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of Truth that they might be saved."

Satan deceives those who are unfaithful to God's Word. This is expressly why Satan is loosed. Does not Revelation chapter 20 tell us this plainly, in that he is Loosed and deceives the nations. And this verse tells us that those who are deceived by the false prophets are deceived because they would not receive the love of truth that they might be Saved. These are the unfaithful of the Churches who won't take heed to what the Word of God says. They are the unrighteous spoken of here that are going to perish because they don't want the truth. The testimony here is that they refused to receive the love of truth. They don't really love God because they don't want truth. The question is often asked, "What is the truth?" The answer is that "it is Christ, and it is the Word which His Spirit reveals to us." None will receive it but him who God gives it as a gift.

John 14:17~"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know Him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Only those who are truly born of God love God (because He first loved them) and thus will receive the love of truth. The rest will not receive it because they want to do their own will instead of God's. They will be judged because of their unfaithfulness. We must try or test what our teachers tell us, that we not be deceived. When we receive what the scriptures say, we evidence the love of God and truth. If we without questioning believe our pastors, or teachers, or Church leaders, or TV Evangelist, then we place ourselves in a position to be deceived by things which we want to hear. We must always make an effort never to fight against God's Word because of our own will or Church traditions, but receive His truth with humility and surrendering love. Because there are those who no matter how many scripture passages there are to prove God said something, will fight against it without fail. In other words, they don't really like what God has to say and so they won't "receive" it as truth. And it doesn't matter if it's plainly written or if it's not plainly written, because if it goes against what they already believe or have been taught, they will not receive it. They are drawn into lawlessness or sin because they don't truly love God~regardless of what they say otherwise.

1st John 5:3~"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Again:

]2nd John 1:6~"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

When we receive God's laws, we receive the love of truth. Those who will not receive it will come under God's wrath. And with each passage witnessed to them that verifies that the Bible indeed says something contrary to their teachings, many will become more agitated and will revile you for making them uncomfortable in their beliefs. They simply don't want to hear that scripture contradicts their views. Some become so incensed that they start calling names like false prophets, or they may refuse to even consider the verses or even speak to you. This is because the word is as a torment to them because they don't want to be under its authority, the witness of, "Thus saith the Lord," torments them. It's like a burr in the saddle. What they want to hear is that they're right, or that God is flexible in His laws, or that we can compromise about what the Word says. They want to hear nothing which makes them uncomfortable in their sins. And this verse of 2nd Thessalonians is speaking of those who are just such people. People under the wrath of God have no excuse for their refusal to receive the love of truth.

Romans 1:18~"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

God shall judge them in His wrath because they held the truth in unrighteousness, who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creation more than the Creator. They served themselves (man of lawlessness) in the Holy Temple, not God. Therefore will God remove His hand of restraint of iniquity and will give them up, just as He has done before.

Romans 1:26-28~"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

Sound familiar? Sound at all like what is going on in our day? A reprobate mind is an unapproved, or unsound mind. It is a flawed mind, a mind which cannot make sound judgments. It is the mind which is spiritually marked of the beast, and antithetical to the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:16). We look around at obvious (to children of God) lawlessness in the Churches and we ask ourselves how can professing Christians condone such, and put to silence those who would dare to testify to God's Word which speaks against it? And the answer is that the mind becomes unsound and reprobate. The heart of natural man is desperately wicked, and the prophecy is that near the end, this heart will be more and more in the Church. Iniquity abounds and the love of God grows cold (Matthew 24). This is what we see prophesied in these verses of Thessalonians. But God is not mocked and will judge.

The overview of verse ten is that when the man of sin comes, energized by that spirit Satan, he will come with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish. And the reason they will perish God tells us is that "they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." In other words, the unfaithful of the Church became backslidden, where they turned away from the God of the Bible having a lapse in morals where they fell to lawlessness or sin. God indeed is longsuffering or patient, but when the time comes to the full, God will reveal the judgment of His wrath on these people. God is informing us that these are unlawful, and 'this' is why they will be deceived of Satan.

[RB]

2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

I want to enlarge a little on: "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders".

In our days the professing temple of God has been overrun with men and women under the power of Satan showing signs and wonders. This has nothing to do with what they preach for their message is corrupted and they have no clue of the gospel of Christ as taught by Paul in Galatians 2-5.   We judge them NOT by signs and wonders, but by the gospel as taught by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Examples of signs and wonders: Jesus said these words:

Luke 13:18-21~"Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it. And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

These two parables fits perfectly with 2nd Thessalonians 2. The church in its beginning was very small, yet it has become a GREAT source of $$$$$$$ for the fowls of the air (evil spirits/devils who teach doctrines of devils) They are here to lodge and only are increasing almost daily.

In around 1900 the sect of Pentecostalism was born and from them, The Word of Faith movement was born basically each has the same doctrine, only the Word of Faith movement are more liberal in their practices and GREED. These two groups are the main movement described by parables and by Paul and John.

They deceive folks with their lying wonders and fake gifts. The wonders are they can go from a storefront to a larger place, onward to even larger places growing at an enormous rate. The fake gifts are the unknown tongues that they can utter at a drop of a bucket that actually serves only their fleshly proud hearts. Their fake healings most of the time are set up beforehand. IF they truly had the gift of healing as they proclaim then they would enter places like St Jude hospital and heal those precious little children who we KNOW children believe whatever you tell them. They would go into the hospitals around the world and PROVE their gifts as Jesus did going about everywhere to heal all that were oppressed of the devil~many he told them to tell no man because he did not do this to be seen or to make a name for himself. 

The wonders are these false prophets live like kings of the earth and are extremely rich robbing simple-minded folks (spiritual speaking) who are primed to be deceived by them

These men and women come saying that Jesus is the Christ and that is true, but a careful examination of their doctrine proves that they preach another gospel, having another spirit just as Paul said. First, Christ said:

Matthew 24:4,5~And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Yes Jesus is Lord, but their Jesus is another Jesus.

2nd Corinthians 11:3,4~But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear

I listen every day to SBN~Jimmy Swaggart's station~Pentecostalism, and The Victory Channel~Kenneth Copeland station~The Word of Faith sect..... who follow the steps of Oral Roberts, their spiritual father so that I can see with my eyes and hear with my ears so that I can speak with true knowledge of what I'm talking about. These two men along with a host of others have built an empire of great wealth using the word of God and have millions following them and every day, their numbers are increasing, yet knowledge of the truth is not there~I know, I test them daily.

That being said, we DO NOT judge every single person therein but their false prophets and main followers and supporters who have been strongly deceived by them and are living under a very strong delusion thinking God is with them and that they are Spirit-filled with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I have talked with two of them in my own home of how they were in them and went through the motion speaking in some type of utterance that they now ashamedly confess was not of God.

They were in their early twenties seeking some type of religious experience trying to find God......... using their own words to me. 

3 Resurrections know them very well. or at least should.   

[Choir Loft]

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?

Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?

That's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Alan]

Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?

Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?

That's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Have you noticed that the person you are replying to is no longer an active member of the forum? Have you noticed that you're replying to a thread that is 1 1/2 years old?


A little more reading and a little less hollering.

[RB]

Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?

Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?

That's me, hollering from the choir loft...

See  Reply #16