Author Topic: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?  (Read 2125 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #105 on: Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 15:18:43 »
RB, I also caught 3 Res' misstatement about the time of Satan's "little season". I started to respond buy then decided not to bother.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #106 on: Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 17:03:48 »
4WD and RB, this is NOT a misstatement of mine that your theory would present Satan's "little season" and "short time" as lasting until the end of the world as we know it.  You claim that Satan and his minions are still in existence, and will be until the end of the world.  John said Satan's "short time" and "little season" of being loosed in the world had already begun in his days, according to Revelation 12:12.  If we accept your theory that Satan is still in existence, then Satan's "short time" and "little season" would then have to last from the first century in John's days until the end of the world as we know it.  Which is wrong, and a gross distortion of what scripture calls a "little season" (which at the very least would be less than 40 years duration, which is called a "long season" in Joshua 24:7).

Yet you are also contradicting John in Revelation 12:12 when you claim that Satan is presently bound today, and will be until the end of the world as we know it.  John said Satan was LOOSED from his bonds for his designated "short time" in those days when he was writing Revelation.  You are both trying to wiggle around that very, very plain statement of John's in Revelation 12:12.  It can't be done.  The millennium had ended before Revelation was being written, and a wrathful Satan was THEN AT THAT PRESENT TIME LOOSED for just a "SHORT TIME" to deceive the nations at the end of that millennium.  There is plenty of scripture evidence of Satan's then-current deception of the nations going on in NT days.  This is based on repeated warnings by Christ and the writers of the epistles to NOT be deceived in those days by Satan's wiles and the deception by seducers and those following false doctrines.   

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #107 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 05:06:16 »
4WD and RB, this is NOT a misstatement of mine that your theory would present Satan's "little season" and "short time" as lasting until the end of the world as we know it.
It is misrepresenting our teaching, even though it does not misrepresent your understanding, but your understanding is not necessarily the truth as you strongly believe. You believe Satan was loose in Revelation 12~that is not the TIME of him being loose, but when he was cast out of heaven.
Quote from: John
Revelation 12:9~ "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
When Christ sent the 70 (the number 70 was representing the fullness or totality of the church) out to witness two by two, and when they returned He said He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18), this is what Revelation 12 is symbolizing. The accuser is cast out! There is no longer a fear of death as the law does not condemn us, and he no longer has any power to accuse the Church. Ultimately through Christ's death and resurrection, Satan was cast out and the Lord's army gained the Victory. They went forth Conquering and to conquer, Revelation 6:1) because Christ went forth Conquering and to Conquer and they were risen in Him. They go forth in battle, and overcome not of themselves, but by the blood of Christ. Satan and all devils are subject to them through Christ's by the power of the cross.

Christ gave us the power to overcome Satan by the Cross alone, and this assured that nothing Satan could do could harm us. He can Kill us, have us stoned to death, or fed to the Lions, but ultimately, he has lost and has no power in the Kingdom of God because his accusations mean nothing because of the work of Christ. He cannot harm us in any way, and certainly not by false Gospels:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 16:17,18~"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Again:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Luke 10:17-19~And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
Some people want to handle literal snakes, or think that they can drink literal poison to prove their faith~ But that's not what is in view. When Mark 16 says we can pick up serpents and not be harmed, and when this verse says we can tred on serpents and scorpions and not be hurt, what is in view is Satan and his ministers with their false gospel. He is the Serpent that cannot harm us, not a literal snake in the grass. He is the scorpion whose sting in his tail cannot harm us~it is gone as far as hurting God's very elect This is Symbolic language, not a literal promise that you can't be poisoned or killed by a snake! Sad to say, I have drunk too much poison by hearing and following false prophets and their teachings~but thanks be unto God, he delivered me from them. These things are the results of Satan being cast out of heaven.

It was Christ who cast Satan from heaven, and it's through Christ that we have the power over serpents, scorpions, Poisonous drinks. Poisons from the lips of Satan's false Prophets. This took place at the beginning of the NT churches being established throughout the Romans empire. As he was cast out, his power to deceive was restrained so the Gentiles world could hear the gospel~but, they like Israel of old begin to reject the truth for other gods that could not see, speak, and without power to deliver them; so Satan was release upon them with his ministers and their false gospel~oh, they, for the most part, stay very religious just as Israel of old, but the like Israel turn the truth of God into a lie.

When Satan was cast out of heaven he knew his time was short, yet this time period is not the SAME time period as the little season, because in the following scriptures in Revelation 12 point to the WHOLE time of the NT church age as we can consider later in this study/debate, etc. 

It is WOE to not only the saints, but to..... Woe unto the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! The cross success doomed Satan and he KNEW IT, so it caused great wrath and this wrath will be upon ALL the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!

In Revelation twenty during that little season, his wrath is directed toward the camp of the saints mainly. Two totally different events.
Quote from:  3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 17:03:48
You claim that Satan and his minions are still in existence, and will be until the end of the world.
I must come back, to address this, or I'll have a long post for most to read and profit thereby.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 07:47:34 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 10:15:32 »
RB, you and I are in unity, I believe, that Christ is the one on the white horse going forth "conquering and to conquer" from the days of the early church.  As you have said in your last comment, this was to do battle with Satan.  However, this makes no sense to say that Christ was going forth on a white horse to do battle with Satan if Satan was then in a BOUND condition with his deception being stopped for that time.  Why was Christ doing battle on a white horse, going out "conquering and to conquer" if Satan was then in a bound condition?  This is contradictory.


You have yet to address why Paul Peter mentions Satan walking about as a roaring lion, seeking those he could devour in those days, and how there could be those who were being taken captive by the snare of the Devil at his will in those days.  There is no way Satan could have been doing those things back in those days of the early church if he was then presently bound and forbidden to deceive the nations at that time. 

Satan was LOOSED on the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for a "SHORT TIME" in those days.  Cast out of heaven's realm forever, and only temporarily consigned to freely roam the earth and sea for only a brief period of time after Christ's ascension.  Contrary to what you are saying, this "SHORT TIME" actually IS the same as the "LITTLE SEASON" at the end of the millennium when Satan was loosed from his chain.  It is NOT the "whole time of the NT church age", because that is certainly NOT a "SHORT TIME". 

When you attempt to blur the meaning of these time-relevant terms, you are obscuring the interpretation that scripture intends to give.  You have no justification for doing this.  If God describes a "little season" as being shorter than a "long season" of 40 years, then this is the meaning we are to understand.  You have no scriptural grounds to extend a "SHORT TIME" and a "LITTLE SEASON" to extend some 2,000 years and counting.  Satan's "SHORT TIME" of operating in the world back in Revelation 12:12 was over long ago, and he and his minions no longer exist on this planet. 

It amazes me that you are so devoted to still having Satan around.  Why is the continued presence of Satan so necessary to your paradigm?  Indeed, realizing that he is gone from this world since AD 70 only gives further proof of the level of natural depravity in mankind, which I KNOW you agree with.  This human depravity does NOT require the presence of Satan to express itself, even in its most evil manifestations. 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 14:49:37 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 10:15:32 »
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Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 10:38:27 »
You and many others are confused about what is meant by Satan being bound.  Read [again?] my reply #77 on the binding of Satan.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 10:38:27 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #110 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 11:09:02 »
4WD, it is stated simply enough in scripture what the binding of Satan is.  "... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled."  Very simple.  Satan's favorite activity as the "Father of lies" would be shut down for a literal thousand years.  Which is NOT to say that there was no deception taking place in the world during that time.  Because the nations were still able to deceive themselves without Satan's contribution to that deception.  The millennium period was not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it.  There is no scriptural backing for such an idea.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #111 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 11:34:54 »
You are correct; the millennium was "not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it".  The millennium is the church age, beginning with the first coming of Christ. The millennium is now!  The millennium will end with Satan's release from his prison (Rev 20:7). 

I would point out to you that Revelation 12-14 one of the five recapitulations in the book that begins with the first coming of Christ, the beginning of the millennium, and ends with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, at the end of the millennium.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #112 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 13:20:28 »
4WD, the millennium cannot possibly be now.  This flat-out contradicts John in Revelation 12:12.  The millennium was DONE and FINISHED by then, since Satan had been cast out of heaven, and was at that time loose in the world, for that "short time" AFTER the millennium had ended. 

Not only are you contradicting John, but you are contradicting your own position.  How can you possibly have the millennium ending with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, if Satan is then supposed to be LOOSED for a short time AFTER that millennium ends?  This is an impossibility.  You're not thinking straight.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #113 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 13:32:15 »
You are correct; the millennium was "not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it".  The millennium is the church age, beginning with the first coming of Christ. The millennium is now!  The millennium will end with Satan's release from his prison (Rev 20:7). 

I would point out to you that Revelation 12-14 one of the five recapitulations in the book that begins with the first coming of Christ, the beginning of the millennium, and ends with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, at the end of the millennium.


Agreed~we very briefly covered this: Reply #75 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 08:46:52,
Quote from: Resurrections  Reply #110 on: Today at 11:09:02
4WD, it is stated simply enough in scripture what the binding of Satan is.  "... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled."
True, but the sense could only mean: to the same degree he did in days from creation of man until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #108 on: Today at 10:15:32
RB, you and I are in unity, I believe, that Christ is the one on the white horse going forth "conquering and to conquer" from the days of the early church.  As you have said in your last comment, this was to do battle with Satan.  However, this makes no sense to say that Christ was going forth on a white horse to do battle with Satan if Satan was then in a BOUND condition with his deception being stopped for that time.  Why was Christ doing battle on a white horse, going out "conquering and to conquer" if Satan was then in a bound condition?  This is contradictory.
Have you never read so much as this:
Quote from: Paul
Acts 26:18~"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
Of course you have read this, yet you have come to believe it all stop in 70 A.D.. So, let me ask you this question: Did this type of biblical evangelism just stop before it truly ever started according to your doctrine.  Are men today delivered from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of God's dear Son? Satan does have a kingdom you should know:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 12:26~"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
He IS the god of this present wicked world, that has never changed, even though with limited power. You no longer believe such scriptures pertain to us as:
Quote
2nd Corinthians 11:3, 13-15~"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.....................For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Well, Satan and his ministers are very much alive and active and are multiplying daily.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #108 on: Today at 10:15:32
You have yet to address why Paul mentions Satan walking about as a roaring lion, seeking those he could devour in those days, and how there could be those who were being taken captive by the snare of the Devil at his will in those days.
I cannot address everything at once, give me time~btw, it was Peter who said those words in 1st Peter 5:8. Later......RB
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 13:37:07 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #114 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 14:48:11 »
Got the typo, RB, thanks.  I'm posting in a hurry.  Will get that fixed...

As you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.  Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task.  He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven".  Did he lie?  Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6.  Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.

However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world.  That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED".  That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also. 

You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall.  Satan's kingdom was certainly divided against itself in that first century, because his followers made war on each other.  After all, what do you think Zealotry was in those days?  It was Israelites practicing civil war against the people of their own nation.  They were divided against themselves, with each of those Zealot leaders absolutely convinced that they could become the military Messiah over their own nation and the world, once they could defeat Rome.  A "great delusion" - of course.  They took their own Daniel prophecies and selfishly twisted them to their own destruction. 

But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?  Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them. 

With the destruction of Satan and his devils and every unclean spirit in Jerusalem back in AD 70, anyone coming to Christ after that is just added spoils being brought into the kingdom of God's dear Son.  The enemy Satan and his devils are literally dead, and are no longer around to personally exercise their power in this world.  The human "children of the devil" can do their worst, but this has no effect on God's ultimate plans to continually increase the numbers of those being adopted into His kingdom.   

Satan is NOT the god of this present world.   Christ even now is presently wearing those "many crowns" of Satan's confiscated kingdoms, once He slew that Dragon back in AD 70.  Christ presently "rules in the midst of His enemies", and of the increase of His government and of His peace between God and regenerated man there shall be no end

The difference between your pessimistic attitude regarding the state of affairs in this world and God's own optimistic plans for it are obviously opposed to each other.  Thank you, no, I prefer to adopt God's attitude with His intended plans of incrementally increasing His kingdom in this world.   I don't want to be insulting, but I live with someone with your same attitude toward life, people, and the world in general, and frankly, it is poisonous to be around.  THEY are the ones with the resulting health problems - not me.  I can't live like that, and I don't think God intended that for His children. 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 14:50:51 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #115 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 16:10:42 »
Not only are you contradicting John, but you are contradicting your own position.  How can you possibly have the millennium ending with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, if Satan is then supposed to be LOOSED for a short time AFTER that millennium ends?  This is an impossibility.  You're not thinking straight.
I am thinking straight enough.  The millennium ends, Satan is loosed for a little while, he is then defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, then Jesus returns, and judgment proceeds (Rev 20 7-15,)

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #116 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 18:37:33 »
4WD, your basic chronology is on target, but your verb tenses are wrong.

"The millennium ENDED, Satan WAS LOOSED for a little while in those first-century days (according to Revelation 12:12), he WAS then defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, then Jesus RETURNED, and judgment PROCEEDED."  All of which events were brought to a conclusion soon after in John's days, since he said those events were "at hand" to the time he was writing those prophecies. 

And you haven't included the prophetic texts which speak about the punishment of the "high ones that are on high" being imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem (Isaiah 24:21-23).  Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in the AD 66-70 era was "prepared for the devil and his angels".  The city of Jerusalem was going to become a "prison" (phulake) for every unclean spirit that existed (Revelation 18:2), along with the inhabitants of the besieged city being trapped with them. 

Christ said earlier that in that wicked generation's "last state", the members of the demonic realm would return to the very ones out of whom He had cast out those devils, who would bring with them other devils seven times more wicked than the ones that had originally plagued that wicked generation before during its "first state" under Christ's earthly ministry.   The result of this toxic mix of imprisoned demons and inhabitants of Jerusalem was the "Great Tribulation" which had never before been experienced, and would never again be experienced at any time future to that generation.     

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #117 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 04:55:07 »
s you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.  Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task.  He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven".  Did he lie?  Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6.  Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.
I agree with John Gill more than what the Preterist and the Historic folks teach concerning Colossians 1:23: "This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world; but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men" see (Romans 8:19-22; Titus 2:11 )"

Even as late in our own times, some tribes of the earth have never heard the name of Jesus Christ~who just might have YOU for lunch if you even attempt to preach to them!
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world.  That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED".  That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also.
Isaiah 27:1.... has yet taken place~we hope to prove in a post totally committed to that one subject coming soon.

Satan's kingdom of darkness is still here with his children living therein with their father and other fallen angles~evil and wicked spirit. To say this is not true, then you would also say many NT scriptures are no longer for us to heed in our day, not just a few, but most of them~according to your teachings. We shall consider in that post we will make dedicated to that subject.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall.
Those are your words not mine~I quoted Matthew 12:26 to prove Satan had a kingdom, which we have been delivered from~I said not a word about his kingdom being divide and falling~as a matter of fact his kingdom is more determined to push their evil and wicked agenda much more than the children of LIGHT are their's, which is very sad to say. Apart from Christ's victory over sin, death, and Satan, there would be no victory for us~Christ secured this for us. When Jesus comes again~shall he find faith on the earth he once asked his disciples:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 18:7,8~"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
Very few will he find when he comes again, that is strong faith~oh, there will children of God in the earth, but very weak and almost at a point of being overcome of the beast. (you do know who the beast is do you not?)
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?  Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them.
Just a word or two more, then I'm stopping for now since I have grandchildren that drove it late last night and some more coming in today. I was asleep when they got here, Sherry was up waiting on them, so Ill see them shortly.

3 Resurrection~You got some of JRC beliefs where he taught the generation of Jews living when Christ was here was the most wicked generation of men that ever lived at one time in this world~using the phrase WICKED GENERATION as used by Christ several times in the gospel.
Quote
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended? 
Every time in the gospel where evil, wicked generation is used WITHOUT an exception it refers to the generation of VIPERS, or the children of the devil....WITHOUT EXCEPTION this is true. THIS generation is used several times and each time it has reference to the WICKED AND EVIL generation of little snakes! Never does it has reference to the common use of the word generation, God's word is its own dictionary and will define it use of words for us. This is a post within itself that we might have to do, to establish our position on this. As a matter of truth~that then living generation of folks well may be the most righteous generation of men on the face of the earth at one given time when you consider: the apostles, John the Baptist, and thousands of others we read about in the gospels and the book of Acts~pretty sure the like the world has never seen at ONE given time.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 09:34:45 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #118 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 05:40:53 »
"The millennium ENDED, Satan WAS LOOSED for a little while in those first-century days (according to Revelation 12:12),
Revelation 12:12 is a prophetic vision, not a history lesson. You are only trying [in vain] to impose your nonbiblical beliefs of Preterism onto Scripture.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #119 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 06:00:56 »
Has the devil and his angles been judged and destroyed according to those who hold to the doctrine of Preterism?

Preterism: Eschatological view, interprets most or all prophecies of the Bible as events that have already happened~mainly in 70 A.D.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSt
Jude verse 6~"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Not a word about being destroyed before the great day of judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
2nd Peter 2:4~For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
We have here the mouth of TWO witnesses both which were apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ tells us how God spare not the angles that sinned at the beginning and his judgment upon them when they did sin.

1. God has RESERVED them in everlasting chain (or that which cannot be broken) under darkness.

2. God cast them down to hell~or, a curse upon them where they shall never see the TRUE LIGHT of understanding, but shall go to and fro seeking rest but finding none. He has left them under a most powerful state of darkness so powerful, they do the devils' bidding~though he is WITH THEM under these chains of darkness, and truly believes he can overthrow the Most High.

3. These fallen angels will be left in this state of darkness until the judgment of the GREAT DAY.
Quote from: THE FALLEN ANGELS
Matthew 8:29~
"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
No, he was not come to torment before the great day of judgment. 70 A.D. was NOT that great DAY of judgment, regardless of the vain and wicked teachings of Preterism.

Later, we will add to his post.

Offline Rella

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #120 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 08:21:58 »
Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #117 on: Today at 04:55:07 »
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Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Yesterday at 14:48:11
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s you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.  Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task.  He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven".  Did he lie?  Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6.  Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.

I agree with John Gill more than what the Preterist and the Historic folks teach concerning Colossians 1:23: "This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world; but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men" see (Romans 8:19-22; Titus 2:11 )"

Even as late in our own times, some tribes of the earth have never heard the name of Jesus Christ~who just might have YOU for lunch if you even attempt to preach to them!

Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
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However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world.  That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED".  That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also.

Isaiah 27:1.... has yet taken place~we hope to prove in a post totally committed to that one subject coming soon.

Satan's kingdom of darkness is still here with his children living therein with their father and other fallen angles~evil and wicked spirit. To say this is not true, then you would also say many NT scriptures are no longer for us to heed in our day, not just a few, but most of them~according to your teachings. We shall consider in that post we will make dedicated to that subject.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
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You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall.

Those are your words not mine~I quoted Matthew 12:26 to prove Satan had a kingdom, which we have been delivered from~I said not a word about his kingdom being divide and falling~as a matter of fact his kingdom is more determined to push their evil and wicked agenda much more than the children of LIGHT are their's, which is very sad to say. Apart from Christ's victory over sin, death, and Satan, there would be no victory for us~Christ secured this for us. When Jesus comes again~shall he find faith on the earth he once asked his disciples:

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
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Luke 18:7,8~"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

Very few will he find when he comes again, that is strong faith~oh, there will children of God in the earth, but very weak and almost at a point of being overcome of the beast. (you do know who the beast is do you not?)

Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
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But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?  Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them.

Just a word or two more, then I'm stopping for now since I have grandchildren that drove it late last night and some more coming in today. I was asleep when they got here, Sherry was up waiting on them, so Ill see them shortly.

3 Resurrection~You got some of JRC beliefs where he taught the generation of Jews living when Christ was here was the most wicked generation of men that ever lived at one time in this world~using the phrase WICKED GENERATION as used by Christ several times in the gospel.
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But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?

Every time in the gospel where evil, wicked generation is used WITHOUT an exception it refers to the generation of VIPERS, or the children of the devil....WITHOUT EXCEPTION this is true. THIS generation is used several times and each time it has reference to the WICKED AND EVIL generation of little snakes! Never does it has reference to the common use of the word generation, God's word is its own dictionary and will define it use of words for us. This is a post within itself that we might have to do, to establish of position on this. As a matter of truth~that then living generation of folks well may be the most righteous generation of men on the face of the earth at one given time when you consider: the apostles, Jogn the Baptist, and thousands of others we read about in the gospels and the book of Acts~pretty sure the like the world has never seen.

 ::eatingpopcorn: ::reading:: ::amen!::

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04 »
RB, I'm going to concentrate on just one verse you brought up in your last comment, simply because it exemplifies how polar opposite we are in our worldviews.  Yours is a pessimistic, sour perspective on the prospects of God's kingdom in this world, which you think is going to continually go downhill until the end when it will implode.  I prefer to rely on Christ's examples of the leaven in the bread dough, the mustard seed, the rock cut without hands growing into a mountain that fills the world, and the endless increase of Christ's government and peace. 

We couldn't be more different in our outlook.

You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history.  It doesn't.  It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".  If Christ had meant the entire world would be without faith, He would have used the word "oikoumene", not "tes ges". But since you reject using the original languages to assist with your interpretations of God's Word, you are crippled in your understanding of this text.

Don't you remember the prophets speaking about how the number of the children of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, yet only a remnant would be saved?  Christ's limit of only a FEW having faith in the earth meant that His own people who had rejected His earthly ministry would comparatively speaking have only a few at that time, who would accept Him for who He was - the Son of God.   This is the "narrow gate" of only THAT "wicked and perverse generation" in Christ's days.  It is NOT a limit put on only a few over the entire course of history who would be children of faith.

You and I have spoken about this before when I told you that the parable of the "wheat and tares" harvest was NOT a majority of TARES being harvested.  The majority of the harvest was good WHEAT which was to be gathered into the "barn".   The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God - with only a FEW rejected "tares" mixed among them. 

Also, you would have the word "generation" (genos) mean the same thing as the word "generation" (genea).  There is also the "generation" (gennemata) of vipers", which means "offspring".
 Though the KJV translates all three of these words by the same name of "generation", they are not the same thing, as Scofield deliberately lied about this very point in his inserted Bible notes.   "THIS wicked and perverse generation" was the single generation of Jewish people living in those days who betrayed and murdered Christ.  Specifically, Christ defines what "THIS generation" is when He foretold the events preceding His return in Luke 17:25, "But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by THIS GENERATION."  It was a first-century generation which directly caused Christ's earthly sufferings, and who delivered Him up to be crucified.

It was "THIS GENERATION" which would have "the sign of the prophet Jonas" given to them firsthand, which they would then reject.  That does not apply to every generation of all time. 

You would like for the words "THIS WICKED AND PERVERSE GENERATION' (which experienced the entire Satanic realm plaguing them in their "last state") to be an all-time application to every time period until the end of the world as we know it. 

It isn't.  That label of "THIS GENERATION" applied specifically to the single generation of wicked and perverse Jews who received the sign of the prophet Jonas and then rejected Jesus as being their prophesied Messiah.  It was THAT GENERATION who rejected Him which received the "Days of Vengeance" poured out upon THEM.  Indeed, they called down a blood curse on their own heads when they said, "His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN".  God made good on that self-imposed curse to those parents and their children.  But He did not extend the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" to every single generation of all time.  That would have been an injustice, and God is not an unjust judge.

As I said, you and I are polar opposite in the way we regard the world in general.  I prefer to adopt Christ's optimistic heart and mind about the predicted fulfillment of His plans for the growth of His kingdom in this world.  He made good on His judgment of that "wicked and perverse generation" back in the first century, by using the now-extinct Satanic realm to punish them for rejecting Him.  Since then, He is continuing to incrementally increase the size of His kingdom.  Eventually, He will purify this world entirely of the remaining remnants of wicked humanity at the final judgment.  There is more than just one Great White Throne judgment, though you refuse to acknowledge it. 

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #122 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:14:24 »
4WD, the Revelation 12:12 verse is NOT a future prediction for us.  It was a declaration and a warning to those John was directly speaking to, describing conditions that were presently occurring in their time. 

Back in Revelation 1:19, Christ told John to write the things which he "had seen" (in the past), and "the things that are" (presently happening in those days), and the things which were "about to happen hereafter" in John's time (the near future for John's readers). 

What happened in Revelation 12 was an already-fulfilled ascension of the man-child Christ to His Father's throne, and the already fulfilled casting out of Satan and his angels from heaven down to the earth and sea.  As a result of those already-fulfilled happenings, John then issued a timely warning for the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea at that time.  Satan was then among them, loosed in the world in great wrath for just a "short time" left to operate in the world. 

This Revelation 12:12 text was clearly a then-present condition in John's days - NOT a future prospect for us.  But I doubt you will ever figure this out.  You are too deeply invested in a life-long belief that isn't going anywhere. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #123 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 11:34:05 »
This Revelation 12:12 text was clearly a then-present condition in John's days - NOT a future prospect for us.  But I doubt you will ever figure this out.  You are too deeply invested in a life-long belief that isn't going anywhere.
It is you who are too deeply invested in a belief that isn't going anywhere.  Discussing eschatology with a preterist is much like discussing the moon landings with one who is convinced that it was all fake narrative photographed and photoshopped on a Hollywood sound stage.

It makes no difference at all what biblical truth RB presents to you. You simply reject it out of hand. I don't necessarily blame you for than since I must admit that I do the same for everything you post relative to eschatology; and that because neither your basic premise nor the ending conclusion makes any sense at all.  I am not so certain, as some here have presented, about when, where or by whom Preterism first raised its ugly head, but I suspect it was somewhat of an outgrowth of Post-millennialism when that view of eschatology first began to be a suspect interpretation of the last days.  Just as Post-millennialism isn't going anywhere, so also Preterism isn't going anywhere.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #124 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 12:11:20 »
You are right, 4WD, that Preterism is not going anywhere.  We are here to stay, like it or not.  Your generation (and mine) which was steeped in the fad of the Pre-mil-dispensational paradigm is passing away, just like the Israelites of old whose carcases dropped in the wilderness, so that their children could go in and inherit the promised land. 

This generation of young people in America is growing up in general with a spiritual blank slate, which actually can ultimately be a good thing.  God doesn't have to do as much mop-up operations of false teaching from the pulpit, since in general, these young people are not growing up in a church atmosphere.  I want to live long enough to be the bridge for my grandchildren between what I was taught in my youth and what I know now from a deeper study of the Word of God.  Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids, and I want to be there to provide a voice of hope and optimism for them, based on the historical patterns of what I see God having done over the millennia.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #125 on: Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 04:25:16 »
You and I have spoken about this before when I told you that the parable of the "wheat and tares" harvest was NOT a majority of TARES being harvested.  The majority of the harvest was good WHEAT which was to be gathered into the "barn".   The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God - with only a FEW rejected "tares" mixed among them.
Very breifly I will say a word or two, then I will come back today and look at your post and address each and every point mainly for others to consider and help them in their faith, for I do not expect to convert you on any point on your new-found faith since we first met many years ago back in the mid to late eighties.

So you now believe The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God~ interesting ::pondering::  You did also say to 4WD:
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"Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids, and I want to be there to provide a voice of hope and optimism for them, based on the historical patterns of what I see God having done over the millennia."
Which one is it? The majority of this world becoming children of God, or "Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids"?  Of course, the latter and I will provide scriptures to prove this to any reasonable person who has not been duped by the devil and his false apostles. I also will do (the Lord willing) a post on "THIS" generation as used by Christ and his apostles.

You actually bought into JRC's theology much more than you realize~He and I was at war from day one on these very points which prompt me to write him a fifty-page rebuttal on THIS generation which he never attempted to answer, or disprove, not even on one or two points. I still have that and will post some of my points to you for you to answer. Btw, how about those verses above from Peter and Jude. Any thoughts? 

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #126 on: Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 09:16:28 »
What, RB, you are going to "help people in their faith" by telling them that the Devil and his angels are still around to plague them, when God told you when He was going to get rid of that entire Satanic realm long ago?  Save me from such false "help".   For some reason you think this world and the church can't function without having a Devil around.  Weird that your doctrine is so tightly linked to that dead creature.

There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times.  These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.  Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture?  It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers.    This has been true in your own life, naturally speaking, I'm sure.  Haven't you grown much more as a person because of hardships in your life?  Same thing for the growth of the kingdom of God in this world. 

You needn't veer off in another direction by devoting copious amounts of material to describe "THIS generation".  It goes off track of this post's theme.  Just insert a link to the couple of posts where you (and I) have already spent time listing the pertinent verses and offering comments on them.

As far as that person JRC, I have told you before that personally, I have never heard him deliver a single sermon on the book of Revelation.  Just Daniel.  And for a lot of that, I was not even in the meeting room, but walking the halls of the hotel, so I missed a lot of sermon content.  I never had any personal conversations with him about anything eschatological, either. So how could I "buy into" something of JRC's that I never even heard?   I DO remember your one and only sermon before we ever got a pastor.  You were very thorough, but covered a lot of material that wasn't exactly related to the sermon theme.  Sort of like you do even today  ::smile::

As for the Jude and Peter references to the "Great Day of Judgment", that is nothing more and nothing less than referring to Malachi's "Great and dreadful Day of the Lord", which would "burn like an oven".  That "Day" would be preceded by the appearance of John the Baptist as "Elijah".  Who, of course, Christ identified as that "Elijah" which should come.  This links that "Great and dreadful Day of the Lord", or simply "The Day" with John the Baptist's generation - not our future.  The destruction of the Satanic realm was reserved for that particular "Day" - not our future.

 

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #127 on: Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 14:00:35 »
As far as that person JRC, I have told you before that personally, I have never heard him deliver a single sermon on the book of Revelation.  Just Daniel. 
I have known him for almost thirty 38 years I believe, and he still has not attempted his first sermon on Revelation. I can go to his site and see every sermon he has ever preached and so far, that book he avoids like a plague.

He treated Daniel as a history book, instead of a prophetic message for us today, just a Jesus applied it.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:15~"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Daniel was not a history teach, but a prophet of God, much of which is now being in the process of being fulfilled.

I'm taking the day off to spend time with my older grandchildren in visiting us, they will be leaving Monday the Lord willing.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:16:28
I DO remember your one and only sermon before we ever got a pastor.  You were very thorough, but covered a lot of material that wasn't exactly related to the sermon theme.  Sort of like you do even today  ::smile::
You have a good memory I could not even begin to tell you. BUT, come on, I very seldom leave my subject.  ::smile::

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #128 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 04:29:13 »
For some reason you think this world and the church can't function without having a Devil around.  Weird that your doctrine is so tightly linked to that dead creature.
Oh, it would function much better. One day he will be totally destroyed with no access to the New Heaven and Earth. Knowledge and righteousness will cover that earth as the seas do now~Jesus will reign and the very elect with him with all of his enemies destroyed never to rise again world without end.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 09:16:28
There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times.  These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.  Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture?  It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers.
Oh, they are for sure exclusively. Every time SIN and false prophets arise in Israel, they suffered greatly and eventually become a servant to other nations and were taken captive by them~and eventually were destroyed and scattered by the Romans throughout this world with their temple destroyed never to rise again, never!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
2nd Timothy 3:1-4:4~This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Do not tell me that this was fulfilled before 70 A.D.~if so, then where are the scriptures speaking of our last days before his coming and kingdom? They are not there, these scriptures are for us, just as such scriptures as 2nd Peter 2,3; Jude and a thousand others we could provide for others to consider knowing you have closed your eyes to the truth and have been deceived into believing a lie.

Yes, YOU closed them is very true, also the devil has helped you to be more deceived even to a place of full security of having the truth.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 13:14-15,~"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Quote from: John
Revelation 20:10~"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
The Serpent deceiving the little serpents~BOTH are poisonous~Satan and men's own sinful hearts.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections 3 Resurrections Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 09:16:28 
You needn't veer off in another direction by devoting copious amounts of material to describe "THIS generation". 
It was you that said:
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04
That label of "THIS GENERATION" applied specifically to the single generation of wicked and perverse Jews who received the sign of the prophet Jonas and then rejected Jesus as being their prophesied Messiah.  It was THAT GENERATION who rejected Him which received the "Days of Vengeance" poured out upon THEM.  Indeed, they called down a blood curse on their own heads when they said, "His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN".  God made good on that self-imposed curse to those parents and their children.  But He did not extend the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" to every single generation of all time.  That would have been an injustice, and God is not an unjust judge.
so I may do a short post on it late
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 08:03:05 by RB »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #129 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 08:23:37 »
There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times.  These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.  Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture?  It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers.    This has been true in your own life, naturally speaking, I'm sure.  Haven't you grown much more as a person because of hardships in your life?  Same thing for the growth of the kingdom of God in this world.
The mistake you, and far too many other Christians, make is thinking that God's dealing with nations today, such as the United States or the world as a whole, is the same as was His dealing with Israel.  It isn't.  The kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, is a kingdom of individuals who have obeyed the gospel. God dealt with Israel on an individual level only occasionally.  And that was almost always to facilitate His dealing with Israel as a nation.  And that was to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. That has been accomplished. It is a major distinction between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  The Old Covenant dealt with Ethnic Israel as the nation of physical circumcision; however, the New Covenant deals with Spiritual Israel as a body of spiritual circumcision.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #130 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 08:38:21 »
You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history.
Well, being faithful and honest to the scriptures with a fear of God of corrupting them, why should I not take the words~"on the earth", as referring to the whole world as we know it? Also, why should I not take "When the Son of man cometh"~to mean his second and only coming. I would listen to anyone if they can prove to me I should listen to a sense in which I could consider this to mean any other meaning other than the whole world and his second coming, if they would use SCRIPTURES to convince me, but will never consider looking at other versions or going to the Greek to force a meaning that is not taught in the scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
Say what you will to me how I'm crippled by rejecting others versions that for the most part came into the world around 130 years ago and thereafter~it will never move me to not live by every word of God that he has graciously given to the English speaking people of this world in Authorized Version (KJV) that our forefathers trusted in.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections  Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04
It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".
That sir is a totally corruption of God's word, given only to support your doctrine Preteristism. Jesus knew the different between in Israel and in the world.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 7:9~"When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 15:19~"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
You would be wise to know that the scriptures carefully use words to teach us the truth on any given subject. I'll believe the scriptures, knowing the Lord knows the difference between the earth/world and the land of Israel. Why are you corrupting the scriptures to support your doctrine? Shame on you.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections  Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04
and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".
Later....RB
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 03:47:07 by RB »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #131 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 16:36:04 »
Hey 4WD

Everything in your reply #129 I heartily concur with.  Not sure why you think it is opposite to what I've been writing.  You spoke of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  That is more or less why scripture often puts a distinction between the terms "the EARTH" and "the WORLD" (tes ges and oikoumene), or often between "the EARTH" and "the SEA" (of the pagan Gentile nations).  To the Jews of the Old Covenant, "The EARTH" was what referred to "the LAND" - of ISRAEL.  Meaning the promised LAND of Canaan.

As in Jeremiah 22:29, when God prophesied to the land of Judah itself, saying, "...O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord".  There was no longer going to be a descendant of Coniah ruling on the throne in the land of Judah.  And as in Joel 2:18-20 when the Lord spoke about having pity on His people, and being jealous for "His LAND".  He said "Fear not, O LAND; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things".  This was leading up to the prophecy when God would pour out His Spirit on His sons and daughters at Pentecost in the LAND of Israel.  But those, as you say, were days when the expansion of God's kingdom was spreading beyond just the LAND of Israel into the New Covenant conditions that are presently in place throughout the entire WORLD.

This, I think, is a point of distinction between "EARTH" and "WORLD" that is lost on RB.

RB, if you think that koine Greek came into existence 130 years ago, I can't help you.  The KJV translators themselves used this tool for their translation labors, which is one that anybody today is equally entitled to employ.  English is not a sacred language that only the most holy use.  If you are so opposed to the original languages, then I never want to hear you using the word "Selah" again.  Or "Messiah".  Or "Apollyon".  Or "Maranatha".  Or "Amen".  Etc., etc. 

I strongly reject your assessment that I am "corrupting" the Word of God.  When Christ said in Matthew 12:45 that it was "THIS wicked generation" whose "last state" would become worse than its "first state" when He was among them casting out devils, this specifically pinpoints the words "THIS wicked generation" to the generation He had been living in during the time of His earthly ministry. 

It was called "THIS generation" in Luke 17:25 which directly caused Christ's sufferings and then rejected Him.  "But first must he" (the Son of Man) "suffer many things, and be rejected of THIS generation."   Christ "came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11).  That was a single generation of Jews spoken about which rejected the day of their visitation by their own prophesied Messiah, and who became His "betrayers and murderers" as Stephen accused them. 

You say if one gives you scripture, that you would consider another meaning than Christ having "a second and ONLY coming".  I have done so before, and you reject this plain sense of Matthew 24:21-30.  There is clearly another third coming of Christ taught in that text, taking place after Christ's second coming which is described in that text.  But the logic of this is lost on you when I compare scripture with scripture.   

That Matthew 24:21-30 text teaches continuing tribulation periods occurring over history AFTER the "Great Tribulation".  Those continuing tribulation periods were never going to be able to duplicate that former "Great Tribulation" period.  Yet Christ returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days", in power and great glory.  How can regular periods of tribulation continue happening over the span of history AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ's second coming at that time, without another third coming of Christ to resurrect the rest of His saints and stage a final judgment for them also?  After all, "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10).  That includes you and me as well.

But regardless of when this second and third coming happen on the timeline, this Matthew 24:21-30 text compared with 2 Cor. 5:10 teaches that there must be more than ONLY a second coming of Christ. 

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #132 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 17:27:51 »
Hey 4WD

Everything in your reply #129 I heartily concur with.  Not sure why you think it is opposite to what I've been writing. 

We have no scripture telling us that God is dealing with any particular nation today as a nation.  Israel was essentially a theocracy. There are no such nations today or since Israel. There is no scriptural indication that God either blesses or punishes nations today based upon national directions.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #133 on: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 18:25:57 »
EXACTLY RIGHT, 4WD.  We don't have that at present.

As Paul said in Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy on all", regardless of the nation from which our parentage comes or in which we reside.  Under the New Covenant, these things became immaterial. 

That should tell you that these prophecies regarding those particular "tribes of the EARTH" (of the land of Israel) were a judgment taking place to clear out all the Old Covenant leftovers hanging around: the tribes of Israel, the physical temple structure, the Levitical priesthood, the distinction between Jew and Gentile...all of it physically burned up or shattered back in the end of the first century.  These things had already been abrogated with the "change in the law" over to the New Covenant at Christ's resurrection and ascension, but humanity somehow needs to see a dramatic physical demonstration of something before they get the message.  Even then, some still don't get the point.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 18:32:28 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #134 on: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 04:21:26 »
RB, if you think that koine Greek came into existence 130 years ago, I can't help you.  The KJV translators themselves used this tool for their translation labors, which is one that anybody today is equally entitled to employ.  English is not a sacred language that only the most holy use. 
I do not know when koine Greek came into existence, and really do not care, it serves me no purpose in knowing. I'm a Christian of the English speaking world and have faith in God according to the scriptures (Psalms 12, etc) that he has preserved for us a copy of His word in our own language, and over time he has convinced me more of this than when I began to believe this in the same movement your parents worshipped God in.  You know the one I'm speaking of. Those people were not too deep in their theology but were very sincere and simple folks trusting in God.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 16:36:04
If you are so opposed to the original languages, then I never want to hear you using the word "Selah" again.  Or "Messiah".  Or "Apollyon".  Or "Maranatha".  Or "Amen".  Etc., etc.
It is not difficult to know the meanings of certain words we find in our English Bibles, generally even the text will guide you into the meaning of certain words by reading the context~no problem, and I'm a very simple man, so If I can, most others can as well.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 16:36:04
I strongly reject your assessment that I am "corrupting" the Word of God.  When Christ said in Matthew 12:45 that it was "THIS wicked generation" whose "last state" would become worse than its "first state" when He was among them casting out devils, this specifically pinpoints the words "THIS wicked generation" to the generation He had been living in during the time of His earthly ministry.

It was called "THIS generation" in Luke 17:25 which directly caused Christ's sufferings and then rejected Him.  "But first must he" (the Son of Man) "suffer many things, and be rejected of THIS generation."   Christ "came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11).  That was a single generation of Jews spoken about which rejected the day of their visitation by their own prophesied Messiah, and who became His "betrayers and murderers" as Stephen accused them.

You say if one gives you scripture, that you would consider another meaning than Christ having "a second and ONLY coming".  I have done so before, and you reject this plain sense of Matthew 24:21-30.  There is clearly another third coming of Christ taught in that text, taking place after Christ's second coming which is described in that text.  But the logic of this is lost on you when I compare scripture with scripture.   

That Matthew 24:21-30 text teaches continuing tribulation periods occurring over history AFTER the "Great Tribulation".  Those continuing tribulation periods were never going to be able to duplicate that former "Great Tribulation" period.  Yet Christ returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days", in power and great glory.  How can regular periods of tribulation continue happening over the span of history AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ's second coming at that time, without another third coming of Christ to resurrect the rest of His saints and stage a final judgment for them also?  After all, "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10).  That includes you and me as well.

But regardless of when this second and third coming happen on the timeline, this Matthew 24:21-30 text compared with 2 Cor. 5:10 teaches that there must be more than ONLY a second coming of Christ.
Well, you are corrupting the scriptures, and by God's help I'm going to prove it with some posts forthcoming.

Trying to decide my best approach to doing this. Obviously, This generation; and Christ's second coming; and a few more pertinent related doctrines in the scriptures need to be revisited carefully.

I'm going to do it here since Rob is not even around to contribute to the thread he started, and besides, it is all related when it comes to Eschatology.

I'll have more time later in the afternoon when the grandchildren leave. RB
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 04:24:54 by RB »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #135 on: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 04:23:33 »
3 Res,

There is no "change in the law".  "...the law IS holy..." (Rom 7:12),  ..."the law IS good" (Rom 7:16; 1 Tim 1:8)

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #136 on: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 09:22:38 »
4WD, I am simply quoting from Hebrews 7:12.  "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."  This was referring to the change from the Levitical priesthood over to the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek.  This was the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #137 on: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 10:43:21 »
RB, if your comfort zone is the KJV, God can bless this to your understanding.  If others can use the tools of lexicons and Greek grammar to come to a better understanding of what they are reading, God can bless this also.  My point was that if you are using the few simple Greek and Hebrew words that you do recognize, then you can hardly criticize someone else for digging further into the same Greek and Hebrew, if God leads them to do so.  This is not to corrupt the Word of God, anymore than your reading of those few simple Greek and Hebrew words would corrupt you. 

God can even use pictures of religious art to open the eyes of a person's understanding.  I just watched the history-based "Amistad” movie again last night.  So moving.  This was a group of desperate slaves who mutinied on the slave ship and slew those holding them captive.  Unfortunately, they were again taken captive and jailed.  While awaiting trial, a man gave them an illustrated Bible.  Without knowing a single word of the script in front of him, the pictures alone told this jailed slave the gospel message from beginning to end, and opened his heart to its truth.  So God can use any means whatever that He chooses to bring someone to faith.

If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing, and also Matthew 24:21-30 compared to 2 Corinthians 5:10, proving a third coming of Christ.

 
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 23:39:41 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #138 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 03:47:01 »
RB, if your comfort zone is the KJV, God can bless this to your understanding.  If others can use the tools of lexicons and Greek grammar to come to a better understanding of what they are reading, God can bless this also.  My point was that if you are using the few simple Greek and Hebrew words that you do recognize, then you can hardly criticize someone else for digging further into the same Greek and Hebrew, if God leads them to do so.  This is not to corrupt the Word of God, anymore than your reading of those few simple Greek and Hebrew words would corrupt you.
Now, this is a different thing from taking whole verses and changing the total meaning of what God is saying, which we know he is saying by knowing the scriptures overall. I have NO PROBLEM with folk explaining meanings of WORDS from another language~or even how they form their phrase of words to get to the same point of understanding. Example: I would say.... "the cow jumped over the fence~yet some Germans (which I'm about 39%)...would say... "Over the fence, the cow jumped". Same thing, no damage to the true meaning of what the cow actually did. I do have a major problem of corruption God's word and I could go into details, many of which you have heard in the past from JRC, and maybe even myself here. Enough now on this point. maybe later since Rella started a thread that I will address when I have time.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 10:43:21
If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing, and also Matthew 24:21-30 compared to 2 Corinthians 5:10, proving a third coming of Christ.
Brother, I'll be happy to do so. I have looked at them already and did not see what you say is there, but let me address only these and then talk.

I'm very tired~We've had grandchildren visiting for the past three days~ older ones and younger ones and it leaves you exhausted even though Sherry swears she did most of the work.  ::smile:: (she did) They took me out of my comfort zone that I do not like folks doing not even them.

« Last Edit: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 03:56:38 by RB »

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Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #139 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 08:56:52 »
If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing
Quote
Revelation 12:12~"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
Quote
Revealtion 20:3 and verse 7~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season..........And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
I sightly covered some of this above:
Quote from: RB Reply #107 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 05:06:16
You believe Satan was loose in Revelation 12~that is not the TIME of him being loose, but when he was cast out of heaven~ OR/and, having no more to accuse the very elect.

Revelation 12:9~ "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

When Christ sent the 70 (the number 70 was representing the fullness or totality of the church) out to witness two by two, and when they returned He said He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18), this is what Revelation 12 is symbolizing. The accuser is cast out! There is no longer a fear of death as the law does not condemn us, and he no longer has any power to accuse the Church. Ultimately through Christ's death and resurrection, Satan was cast out and the Lord's army gained the Victory. They went forth Conquering and to conquer, Revelation 6:1) because Christ went forth Conquering and to Conquer and they were risen in Him. They go forth in battle, and overcome not of themselves, but by the blood of Christ. Satan and all devils are subject to them through Christ's by the power of the cross.

Christ gave us the power to overcome Satan by the Cross alone, and this assured that nothing Satan could do could harm us. He can Kill us, have us stoned to death, or fed to the Lions, but ultimately, he has lost and has no power in the Kingdom of God because his accusations mean nothing because of the work of Christ. He cannot harm us in any way, and certainly not by false Gospels:
From the time he was cast out, until the time he is actually loose is the time of the 1000 yrs which is the totality of the NT church age. 1000 years is not to be taken literally, no more than Satan who is a spirit being bound with a chain, is to be taken literally, etc.

Once cast out of heaven~the JOYFUL SOUND goes forth unto all nations:
Quote
Revelation 12:10~"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
You are guilty of making those two events as one and they are not one event but two separate events separated by the church kingdom being built and Christ's enemies being made his footstool~the losing of Satan comes just before the second coming of Christ which will be a visible coming with every eye seeing him with his holy army behind coming to destroy and take full possession of what truly belongs to Christ and his people. 

What more can the devil have to accuse the elect? NOTHING. Christ paid in full for their sins by being made sin for them and suffering death for those sins. Yes, once sins were paid for the devil knew he had but a short time, yet in Revelation 20 it is even shorter!
Quote
Revelation 20:3 and verse 7~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season..........And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
Here in Revelation 20 Satan is cast into the bottomless pit that he should not deceive the nations no more, or, to the degree he did in the OT, till Christ brings all of his elect into the fold out of all nations~per 2nd Peter 3:9, etc.

Once the church fold is completed, then he will be loose for a little season to deceive as he did before the coming of Christ. How long that little season is hidden from us, for in such an hour, the Son of Man will come when most of the world is sleeping and not prepared. All these truths are clearly taught in gospels and church epistles which I purposely withheld so I could complete this in one post.

On the heel of Matthew 24 is Matthew 25 which IS part of the same discourse teaching exactly what I'm saying. So many labors to separate Matthew 24 from Matthew 25, but Christ is addressing the very same doctrine of the latter days of this world and his second coming to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 14:12:32 by RB »