Jesus & The Rapture

[Feedmysheep]

 

I can assure you, When Paul wrote, He has NO CLUE of the series in Revelation. They has been revealed to NO ONE.

 I don't have the assurance to say that. Paul mentions "the book of life" in his letter to the Philippians. And Paul was carried away to unspeakable places.

 I no longer have the assurance to state that Paul knew of nothing that John wrote. Maybe Paul knew more than we realize.

[lecoop]

I can assure you, When Paul wrote, He had NO CLUE of the series in Revelation. They had been revealed to NO ONE.

 I don't have the assurance to say that. Paul mentions "the book of life" in his letter to the Philippians. And Paul was carried away to unspeakable places.

 I no longer have the assurance to state that Paul knew of nothing that John wrote. Maybe Paul knew more than we realize.

Paul may have seen the book of life in heaven. Since then, God has allowed several to see it, and they have written about it. Some have been allowed to see their own name written in it.  I think, if Paul had known of the 7 trumpet judgments, he would have written about them.

The whole argument comes from those that think Paul's "last trump" must then be the 7th trumpet in Revelation. That theory is simply MYTH.

Coop

[Feedmysheep]

I can assure you, When Paul wrote, He had NO CLUE of the series in Revelation. They had been revealed to NO ONE.

 I don't have the assurance to say that. Paul mentions "the book of life" in his letter to the Philippians. And Paul was carried away to unspeakable places.

 I no longer have the assurance to state that Paul knew of nothing that John wrote. Maybe Paul knew more than we realize.

Paul may have seen the book of life in heaven. Since then, God has allowed several to see it, and they have written about it. Some have been allowed to see their own name written in it.  I think, if Paul had known of the 7 trumpet judgments, he would have written about them.

The whole argument comes from those that think Paul's "last trump" must then be the 7th trumpet in Revelation. That theory is simply MYTH.

Coop

 But if Paul wrote about the book of life (Phil. 4:3) how do you know that he could not also write about the last tumpet ,ie. the seventh trumpet ?

 On your say so, it just couldn't be ?

[lecoop]

I can assure you, When Paul wrote, He had NO CLUE of the series in Revelation. They had been revealed to NO ONE.

 I don't have the assurance to say that. Paul mentions "the book of life" in his letter to the Philippians. And Paul was carried away to unspeakable places.

 I no longer have the assurance to state that Paul knew of nothing that John wrote. Maybe Paul knew more than we realize.

Paul may have seen the book of life in heaven. Since then, God has allowed several to see it, and they have written about it. Some have been allowed to see their own name written in it.  I think, if Paul had known of the 7 trumpet judgments, he would have written about them.

The whole argument comes from those that think Paul's "last trump" must then be the 7th trumpet in Revelation. That theory is simply MYTH.

Coop

 But if Paul wrote about the book of life (Phil. 4:3) how do you know that he could not also write about the last tumpet ,ie. the seventh trumpet ?

 On your say so, it just couldn't be ?

They are two totally different trumpets, one sounded by an angel, and Paul's sounded by God Himself. Paul's last trump will be sounded at least 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet.  you can read from now to doomsday, and not read about the rapture while reading abut the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And that is because the rapture will happen 3.5 years BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week.

Coop

[Feedmysheep]

They are two totally different trumpets, one sounded by an angel, and Paul's sounded by God Himself. Paul's last trump will be sounded at least 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet.  you can read from now to doomsday, and not read about the rapture while reading abut the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And that is because the rapture will happen 3.5 years BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week.

Coop

     You did not answer my question. You only made the same assertion again. That won't do.     How do you know that "the trumpet of God" is sounded by God Himself ?

    "Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess. 4:16)   Which words in that sentence tell you conclusively, without any doubt, that the trumpet of God is blown by God Himself ? You don't know that.

   How about here?

 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed." (1 Cor. 15:52)

  Which words in that verse assure you that the last trumpet can only be sounded by God ?  You don't know that.

   This reason you have given that Paul's "last trumpet" cannot be the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, is not strong. You should have a better reason for asserting that if it is true.

 And why do you think that after the resurrection and change mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 there should be another 3.5 years before the end of the great tribulation?
 
 Why do you believe that ?

[lecoop]

They are two totally different trumpets, one sounded by an angel, and Paul's sounded by God Himself. Paul's last trump will be sounded at least 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet.  you can read from now to doomsday, and not read about the rapture while reading abut the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And that is because the rapture will happen 3.5 years BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week.

Coop

     You did not answer my question. You only made the same assertion again. That won't do.     How do you know that "the trumpet of God" is sounded by God Himself ?

    "Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess. 4:16)   Which words in that sentence tell you conclusively, without any doubt, that the trumpet of God is blown by God Himself ? You don't know that.

You answered your own question: WHO's trumpet is it? Sorry, but Gabe' is not going to blow God's trumpet. If He blows a trumpet, it will be his own.

  

How about here?

 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed." (1 Cor. 15:52)

  Which words in that verse assure you that the last trumpet can only be sounded by God ?  You don't know that.

I don't fight with scriptures; I believe them: when it says trump of God, why would you believe anyone else would blow it?

  

This reason you have given that Paul's "last trumpet" cannot be the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, is not strong. You should have a better reason for asserting that if it is true.

I understand John's chronology. I know where the rapture is in revelation, and I know that it comes before the 7th trumpet. If you would believe John, you would believe that too. When did Paul say his rapture would be? Just three verses after the classic rapture verse, Paul mentions the day of the Lord, as if that Day had some connection to the rapture. He goes on to say that while those in darkness get the sudden destruction of the first day of the Day of the Lord, WE get salvation by way of rapture, and get to live together with Him. Therefore, Paul is telling us plainly that the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. In fact, the rapture is the TRIGGER for that Day.

So where does the Day of the Lord begin in Revelation?  With the 7th seal. The SIGNS for that day are at the 6th seal. Therefore, the rapture will take place before the 7th seal. In fact, John saw the church in the throne room. If you believed what he wrote, you would know the rapture comes before the 7th trumpet.


 

And why do you think that after the resurrection and change mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 there should be another 3.5 years before the end of the great tribulation?
 
 Why do you believe that ?

That is not what the bible teaches or what I said. I said it will be about 3.5 years from the rapture to the 7th trumpet. But the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end.  And the 7th trumpet comes BEFORE those days of great tribulation. The events of 15:52 are the very same events of 1 Thes. 4:17, and Paul teaches in chapter 5 that the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord.  (I hope you did not stop reading in chapter 4!)  So in truth, from the day of the rapture there will be about 7 years before the 70th week ends - very simply because the rapture comes before the 70th week.

Coop

[daq]

I don't fight with scriptures; I believe them: when it says trump of God, why would you believe anyone else would blow it?

Do you really believe the Scripture? Ok then ...  

BEHOLD!

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from G-d out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of G-d is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and G-d himself shall be with them, and be their G-d.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living G-d, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to G-d the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:4-5 KJV
4. And G-d shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[lecoop]

I don't fight with scriptures; I believe them: when it says trump of God, why would you believe anyone else would blow it?

Do you really believe the Scripture? Ok then ...  

BEHOLD!

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from G-d out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of G-d is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and G-d himself shall be with them, and be their G-d.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living G-d, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to G-d the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:4-5 KJV
4. And G-d shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

They are all good!  ;-)

[Feedmysheep]

You answered your own question: WHO's trumpet is it? Sorry, but Gabe' is not going to blow God's trumpet. If He blows a trumpet, it will be his own.

  That is not a good enough reasoning. Where does it say that the first trumpet is not of God ?
  
  Revelation 8:2 says "And I saw the seven angels who sand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."     All the trumpets blown by the angels are trumpets of God too.

  Whoever else do the seven trumpets belong to if not to God ?

  The sounder of the trumpets is not a very good reason to insist that Paul's "last trumpet" could not be the seventh trumpet. I will look for a better reason if someone has one.  

 

I don't fight with scriptures; I believe them: when it says trump of God, why would you believe anyone else would blow it?    

   Whether God is the blower or not, it is not sufficient reason to insist that Paul's mention of the last trumpet, cannot be the seventh trumpet in John's Revelation.

    The Owner of the the last trumpet Paul mentions is God. The Owner of the seven trumpets blown by the seven angels who stand before God is also God.

    So your pointing out that "the trumpet of God" proves that that cannot be the seventh trumpet, is not conclusive reasoning IMO.  

  

I understand John's chronology. I know where the rapture is in revelation, and I know that it comes before the 7th trumpet. If you would believe John, you would believe that too. When did Paul say his rapture would be? Just three verses after the classic rapture verse, Paul mentions the day of the Lord, as if that Day had some connection to the rapture. He goes on to say that while those in darkness get the sudden destruction of the first day of the Day of the Lord, WE get salvation by way of rapture, and get to live together with Him. Therefore, Paul is telling us plainly that the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. In fact, the rapture is the TRIGGER for that Day.
 

  Okay lecoop.

  We all need a firm hope. And as your brother in Christ, I do not want to give impression that I am against your firm hope.

  So, I think I will not argue about this anymore. Come Lord Jesus. I have a thread on "I Expect a Selective Rapture".  And instead of repeating, I think that thread is where I will answer questions about my expectation and hope.

   It is wonderful that our Lord comes. Let us prepare ourselves to meet our wonderful and victorious Lord Jesus.

 Agape.

[daq]

  We all need a firm hope. And as your brother in Christ, I do not want to give impression that I am against your firm hope.

  So, I think I will not argue about this anymore. Come Lord Jesus. I have a thread on "I Expect a Selective Rapture".  And instead of repeating, I think that thread is where I will answer questions about my expectation and hope.

   It is wonderful that our Lord comes. Let us prepare ourselves to meet our wonderful and victorious Lord Jesus.

 Agape.

When you get back there perhaps you might want to answer Reply#29

Re: I Expect a Selective Rapture
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2011, 10:06:32 AM »

Not for me but for yourself ... 

[pointmade]

dag: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

And you know you are a "new creature" by "being in Christ."
You know this by what evidence? Your think so? an EXPERIENCE?
If so, by what criteria? Baptist? Catholic? Pentecostal? Mormon?

[daq]

dag: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

And you know you are a "new creature" by "being in Christ."
You know this by what evidence? Your think so? an EXPERIENCE?
If so, by what criteria? Baptist? Catholic? Pentecostal? Mormon?

Hi pointmade
First comes the hearing of the Word, then comes faith and belief upon the Word delivered, then comes repentance, (for all have sinned and there is none righteous). Then comes baptism. Baptism is not just by physical water, (though it is commanded). The true baptism is INTO the Word. So when we believe, AFTER we are cut to the heart by the hearing of the truth, we are commanded to REPENT and be BAPTISED. We then begin our journey and walk with Christ which, in my experience, did not begin with a particular spiritual or "mystical" EXPERIENCE if that is what you mean. Being born of water and of Spirit is by the understanding that the water spoken of is "the washing of the water of the Word" daily, (true baptism into the Word). Otherwise know that John the Baptist himself was never baptized in physical water, (Yeshua basically told John to wait when he asked and Yeshua replied "suffer it to be so" for the time being). John was beheaded before he was baptized in any physical water, yet certainly John received the true baptism.

As for an experience: I know that if you love Christ you will not be leaving this mortal body until your eternal fate is sealed by the High Priest himself. It is personal, just as is the whole Gospel of salvation. Yeshua is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness. He is absolutely coming in your lifetime, and when the saints overcome, so shall we ever be with him, but until then, we keep the patience and the faith of the saints, (lest he come upon you as a thief in the night).

John 17:14-21 KJV
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Acts 8:26 KJV
26. And the angel of the L-rd spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

Acts 8:39-40 KJV
39. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the L-rd caught away (GSN#726 harpazo) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the L-rd.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: G-d knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: G-d knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the L-rd in the air: and so shall we ever be with the L-rd.

Revelation 12:5 KJV
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) unto G-d, and to his throne.

"Keep yourself in the love of G-d, eagerly awaiting the mercy-atonement of our Master Yeshua the Christos into life everlasting. Who also truly is compassionate, thoroughly separating: Some but saving from the fire, snatching them out, who is but showing compassion in the fearfulness, detesting even the garment of the flesh having been soiled." And: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living G-d."

Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua