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Offline dpr

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Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 06:45:01 »
Personally, I use the Biblical terms "caught up" or "gathering" for the idea of Jesus gathering His Church from the earth on the day of His second coming. It's the Greek word harpazo.

One must be careful with those who use the word "rapture" that originated from the Latin.

There is a difference between some who use that 'rapture' term for the gathering of Christ's Church.

Basically, today, those on the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory have pretty much hijacked the term "rapture". I'd say the majority when they hear "rapture', those automatically think it means being gathered by Jesus prior to the start of the great tribulation He mentioned, but that's not the order of His return that He taught in Matthew 24.

Then there are some who use that term "rapture", but they recognize our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church after the tribulation like He revealed in Matthew 24.

So it's a wise thing to ask them if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.


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Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 06:45:01 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #1 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 08:42:48 »
Personally, I use the Biblical terms "caught up" or "gathering" for the idea of Jesus gathering His Church from the earth on the day of His second coming. It's the Greek word harpazo.

One must be careful with those who use the word "rapture" that originated from the Latin.

There is a difference between some who use that 'rapture' term for the gathering of Christ's Church.

Basically, today, those on the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory have pretty much hijacked the term "rapture". I'd say the majority when they hear "rapture', those automatically think it means being gathered by Jesus prior to the start of the great tribulation He mentioned, but that's not the order of His return that He taught in Matthew 24.

Then there are some who use that term "rapture", but they recognize our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church after the tribulation like He revealed in Matthew 24.

So it's a wise thing to ask them if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.

I've argued the rapture many times, but truthfully I don't think it matters if we believe in "the rapture." The scripture says to be ready for His Coming, whatever the timing or way that may be.

As long as we believe He is coming and there will be a resurrection it doesn't matter, God will do it His way no matter how we interpret scripture.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #1 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 08:42:48 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #2 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 08:59:50 »

I've argued the rapture many times, but truthfully I don't think it matters if we believe in "the rapture." The scripture says to be ready for His Coming, whatever the timing or way that may be.

As long as we believe He is coming and there will be a resurrection it doesn't matter, God will do it His way no matter how we interpret scripture.

I understand where you're coming from, but it really does matter, because our Lord Jesus commanded us to be on watch for His coming. That means knowing the times and the seasons leading up to His return, like Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5. Our Lord's and the Apostle's main warnings for the end, was not allow any man to deceive us. A preacher telling us we have no need to watch contrary to Christ's command to watch is a deceiver.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #3 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:01:23 »
His sheep know the sound of His voice. 

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #3 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:01:23 »
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Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:32:33 »
His sheep know the sound of His voice.

But sadly, some brethren do not know, because they rely on men's religious systems for their salvation instead of heeding our Lord Jesus in His Word of Truth. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles especially warned us against being deceived in the last days. Some man simply telling us we don't have study God's Word for ourselves, and just believe what they say and go on about our business is not... one of Christ's fold.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:32:33 »



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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #5 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:36:37 »
His sheep know the sound of His voice.

But sadly, some brethren do not know, because they rely on men's religious systems for their salvation instead of heeding our Lord Jesus in His Word of Truth. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles especially warned us against being deceived in the last days. Some man simply telling us we don't have study God's Word for ourselves, and just believe what they say and go on about our business is not... one of Christ's fold.

The argument could be made that they aren't His then..because Christ says "my sheep know my voice."

I agree that people need to study and know God on His terms, not the institution they worship in...but Christ is not a liar, and He promises that those that are His, know His voice.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #6 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:47:54 »
His sheep know the sound of His voice.

But sadly, some brethren do not know, because they rely on men's religious systems for their salvation instead of heeding our Lord Jesus in His Word of Truth. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles especially warned us against being deceived in the last days. Some man simply telling us we don't have study God's Word for ourselves, and just believe what they say and go on about our business is not... one of Christ's fold.

Whether you are looking for a pre-trib rapture or for the Second Coming, if you are looking for His return through separation from the world by faith in Christ, you will not be deceived.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #7 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:58:11 »


The argument could be made that they aren't His then..because Christ says "my sheep know my voice."

I agree that people need to study and know God on His terms, not the institution they worship in...but Christ is not a liar, and He promises that those that are His, know His voice.

Why try to debate whether or not those in Christ Jesus hear His voice or not? Of course it's not about those, because those WILL... be on watch like He commanded us, and those will not... be deceived.

Our Lord Jesus' idea of 'hearing' His voice means listening to Him... in His Word, Holy Writ. That was the point He also made with His elect of the Church of Philadelphia, because they kept His Word. This Message goes all the way back in the Old Testament Books also. His sheep that know His voice per John 10 is about those who heed His Word, and thus know how to recognize the wolves when they try to creep in. His elect of the Church of Philadelphia knew what He was talking about regarding the false Jews which He called "the synagogue of Satan". This Message Jesus even included in the parable of the sower, because as OT metaphors, the fowls and thorns represented Satan's workers, enemies of Israel that had crept in. It also involves the "tares" of Matt.13.

But how many of the other Churches in Asia (Minor) did Jesus rebuke because they had allowed problems to creep in? Our Lord Jesus rebuked 5 out of the 7. Five out of Seven of the Churches in Asia Jesus rebuked, but only two He had no problem with, which those represent His very elect that will not, and cannot be deceived. The other five were deceived, and were falling away. Likewise it will be in these last days, five out of seven Churches will fall away from Him because of NOT listening to Him in His Word.


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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #8 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 09:58:49 »
His sheep know the sound of His voice.

But sadly, some brethren do not know, because they rely on men's religious systems for their salvation instead of heeding our Lord Jesus in His Word of Truth. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles especially warned us against being deceived in the last days. Some man simply telling us we don't have study God's Word for ourselves, and just believe what they say and go on about our business is not... one of Christ's fold.

Whether you are looking for a pre-trib rapture or for the Second Coming, if you are looking for His return through separation from the world by faith in Christ, you will not be deceived.

I agree with this.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #9 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 10:05:22 »


Whether you are looking for a pre-trib rapture or for the Second Coming, if you are looking for His return through separation from the world by faith in Christ, you will not be deceived.

I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

In these last days when the coming pseudo-Christ arrives, many supposedly learned pastors are going to be proclaiming that pseudo-Christ as our Lord Jesus, and tell their congregations to seek that one.

So if you include that in your idea of separation from the world by Faith, then good. But are you even aware that there's going to be a false messiah coming first with the power to do miracles like our Lord Jesus?

In other words, how will you recognize "the another Jesus" that Apostle Paul warned about when he said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin"? (2 Corinthians 11)

How will you know the difference when that time comes in the last days?

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #10 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 10:57:59 »


Whether you are looking for a pre-trib rapture or for the Second Coming, if you are looking for His return through separation from the world by faith in Christ, you will not be deceived.

I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

In these last days when the coming pseudo-Christ arrives, many supposedly learned pastors are going to be proclaiming that pseudo-Christ as our Lord Jesus, and tell their congregations to seek that one.

So if you include that in your idea of separation from the world by Faith, then good. But are you even aware that there's going to be a false messiah coming first with the power to do miracles like our Lord Jesus?

In other words, how will you recognize "the another Jesus" that Apostle Paul warned about when he said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin"? (2 Corinthians 11)

How will you know the difference when that time comes in the last days?

When the false jesus comes, is he gonna make the heaven shake? Is he gonna demonstrate so much glory you can't look at it directly, with myriads of angels following him? If not, it's pretty distinct.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #11 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 19:44:57 »


When the false jesus comes, is he gonna make the heaven shake? Is he gonna demonstrate so much glory you can't look at it directly, with myriads of angels following him? If not, it's pretty distinct.

If you fully understand what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:23-26 that "if possible" it would even fool His very elect, then yes, that coming pseudo-Christ is going to work miracles on the level that will make the majority of the world believe he is God.

If they say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", our Lord Jesus said don't believe it. A quick look at how the world will make merry and give each other gifts after God's two witnesses are murdered in Jerusalem reveals how duped the majority of the world will be then.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #12 on: Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 20:37:50 »
By the way, after having coming to this Truth in God's Word about the coming false messiah at the ending of this world to Jerusalem to work miracles and wonders to deceive the whole world, I got into a study of the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers. They also understood this event for the end of this world. So this should not... really be a new idea brethren are hearing here for the first time.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #13 on: Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 06:00:14 »
dpr, you worry when there is nothing to worry about. Listen to what Paul says of the times and seasons of the end.

1Thes. 5:1-11
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
 
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
 
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
 
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
 
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
 
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
 
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #14 on: Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 06:55:32 »
Sorry to have to correct you, but I'm not worrying, at least not for myself. I do worry about brethren like yourself though who reveal that you might be deceived into accepting the coming pseudo-Christ in place of our true Lord Jesus Christ Who will only return after that false one has done his job of deception upon the majority on earth.

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul was actually giving those signs from the OT prophets about the very end of this world.

When he told them he had no need to write to them about "the times and the seasons", it means they already... knew all that. They perfectly knew about the "day of the Lord" events, and Jesus' second coming, because that's what the subject of the times and seasons is about.

But what of other brethren who do not know those things? especially today? There are many... today in the Church not aware of those times and seasons, because they are not taught about them, nor do they study God's Word enough for themselves to know them.

That's why I'm led by The Holy Spirit to teach about those times and seasons. Even though some will not listen, those given to know will. Therefore, I know some will not hear, because of blindness that God has put upon them for this time.

So, did you pick up on what Paul said there about that "Peace and safety" event from the OT prophets about the end of this world? I noticed you didn't put any of that in bold, but only put two verses in bold which many on the Pre-trib Rapture theory often emphasize, which is a show of not really understanding what Paul was talking about there.

I won't leave you guessing though (that is if you're still reading this):

In the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter, Paul was covering the event of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. Yet in that chapter, Paul did not give that along with any signs leading up to the end when that will happen.

But in 1 Thess.5 Paul did give some signs to mark.

In Matthew 24:6, our Lord Jesus told His that when we hear of wars and rumours of wars, don't be troubled for those things must be. The last part He said is very... important, for He then said, "but the end is not yet." Thus we can know, and be sure, that the very end of this world will not happen during a time when wars are still going on. And that can mean only one thing, a short time of world peace is set for the very end prior to Jesus' coming.

That time of peace per the OT prophets is what Paul was talking about with that "Peace and safety" idea.

When the deceived finally begin to say, "Peace and safety", that is when the "sudden destruction" of God's consuming fire to end this world and signal Christ's coming, will occur. That means there will be a short time of world peace at the very end, just prior to that sudden destruction.

Paul called it a "sudden" destruction because that's the idea God showed through His prophet Isaiah about it. There is a section of chapters in the Book of Isaiah some Bible scholars call the 'Apocalypse of Isaiah', the reason being because it outlines many events of the end linked in our Lord's Book of Revelation.

This is how Apostle Paul knew about the times and the seasons of our Lord Jesus' second coming, because Paul was a scholar of the Old Testament Books, and he met with Christ's Apostles that were with Jesus, and stayed with them a while before going on his ministry.

The other time marker Apostle Paul gave there in 1 Thess.5 is one of great importance. Paul linked the events of "the day of the Lord" with the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming with the "as a thief in the night" metaphor. Apostle Peter also understood this one, because he proclaimed it also in 2 Peter 3:10 in association with the elements (man's works, not earth matter) being burned up on the "day of the Lord".

In Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus Himself proclaimed that He comes "as a thief", pointing to this thief in the night metaphor Paul proclaimed here in 1 Thess.5.

The thief in the night metaphor is based on our Lord Jesus' Message at the end of His Olivet Discourse, like in Matthew 24, where He warned us to 'watch', and that actually was an idea first written in Isaiah about the idea of the watchman.

Paul also gave yet another marker, when he mentioned about the deceived being in a state "as travail upon a woman with child", when that "sudden destruction" occurs at the end.

So while some preachers simply pull out those two verses you put in bold, and then preach against Christ's command for us to be on watch, i.e., knowing those "times and the seasons" leading up to Christ's coming, and even omitting Paul's end time markers he gave in that very chapter, doing that reveals what about those preachers?

It reveals they do not know, and are just playing religion, ever on the 'milk' of God's Word and never getting to the 'strong meat'.

But some preachers are revealing these markers to their congregations, even though many of the members may at first struggle to understand. I know some small children that understand more about this 1 Thess.5 chapter's end time markers that Paul gave than those above milk preachers do!





Offline MeMyself

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #15 on: Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 07:34:06 »
Sorry to have to correct you, but I'm not worrying, at least not for myself. I do worry about brethren like yourself though who reveal that you might be deceived into accepting the coming pseudo-Christ in place of our true Lord Jesus Christ Who will only return after that false one has done his job of deception upon the majority on earth.

 ::noworries::  Oh gosh...another who is JUST SURE of their standing with God, JUST SURE they have a deeper and fuller understanding of Him and the things to come that they are in NO DANGER whatsoever...

but the rest of us?  We are in grave danger and the only way we will not be is to agree with and believe them.

Oy.

God bless you, Op.  May the God of peace that passes all understanding draw near to you today and continue to give you full confidence in HIM.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #16 on: Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 09:02:16 »
I know some small children that understand more about this 1 Thess.5 chapter's end time markers that Paul gave than those above milk preachers do!
That's impossible. Certain truths takes years to learn. Eschatology being the hardest of all.  MeMyself said:
Quote
another who is JUST SURE of their standing with God, JUST SURE they have a deeper and fuller understanding of Him and the things to come that they are in NO DANGER whatsoever...but the rest of us?  We are in grave danger and the only way we will not be is to agree with and believe them.
By all means, allow such people to speak and seriously try their words with the word of God, based upon your understanding. There's nothing wrong with others sharing their understanding, but we should welcome all to test our understanding, with what they believe is truth. Iron sharpen iron, so does men with true understanding makes our position stronger, if we have truth to work with. Bring it on, let us test it.   
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 09:06:53 by RB »

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #17 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 02:21:27 »
Sorry to have to correct you, but I'm not worrying, at least not for myself. I do worry about brethren like yourself though who reveal that you might be deceived into accepting the coming pseudo-Christ in place of our true Lord Jesus Christ Who will only return after that false one has done his job of deception upon the majority on earth.

 ::noworries::  Oh gosh...another who is JUST SURE of their standing with God, JUST SURE they have a deeper and fuller understanding of Him and the things to come that they are in NO DANGER whatsoever...

but the rest of us?  We are in grave danger and the only way we will not be is to agree with and believe them.

Oy.

God bless you, Op.  May the God of peace that passes all understanding draw near to you today and continue to give you full confidence in HIM.


It's not really that difficult to distinguish those who have not... studied God's Word line upon line like He showed, vs. those that have.

Nor is it difficult to distinguish between those who heed doctrines of men vs. those who listen to God in His Holy Writ.

If this were not true, then all believers would still be suckin' on the milk bottle instead of chewing the "strong meat" of God's Word.

Now, once your tyraid is over, do you have anything to add that actually... addresses the Scriptures in question from the previous posts?


Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #18 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 02:34:01 »
I know some small children that understand more about this 1 Thess.5 chapter's end time markers that Paul gave than those above milk preachers do!
That's impossible. Certain truths takes years to learn. Eschatology being the hardest of all.


No, it is not... impossible. It all depends upon who one listens to, and who God gives understanding to. A little child that hears nothing but old bottle traditions of men, which is what is taught in most of the Churches today, will continue to spew old bottle traditions into adulthood. But a young child fed the "new wine" of God's Word from the start, even being young what they are given to understand will break those old bottles of the traditions of men, because those old bottles cannot hold the "new wine" of God's Word.


Quote
MeMyself said: another who is JUST SURE of their standing with God, JUST SURE they have a deeper and fuller understanding of Him and the things to come that they are in NO DANGER whatsoever...but the rest of us?  We are in grave danger and the only way we will not be is to agree with and believe them.
Quote
By all means, allow such people to speak and seriously try their words with the word of God, based upon your understanding. There's nothing wrong with others sharing their understanding, but we should welcome all to test our understanding, with what they believe is truth. Iron sharpen iron, so does men with true understanding makes our position stronger, if we have truth to work with. Bring it on, let us test it.   

When the Biblically illiterate choose to follow doctrines of men, which the Pre-trib Rapture theory is indeed a doctrine from men and not God, then their understanding will fail to grasp the markers our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave His Church to be watching in the last days.

I got the message MeMyself was pushing from the start, i.e, that we have no need to study those times and the seasons leading up to Christ's second coming that He put in His Word for His Church to be watching at the end. I've heard their "just believe and you'll be saved message" many times, which is just an excuse to not get down real disciplined Bible study while not heeding men's traditions.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 03:25:00 by dpr »

Online RB

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #19 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 02:54:58 »
No, it is not... impossible. It all depends upon who one listens to, and who God gives understanding to. A little child that hears nothing but old bottle traditions of men, which is what is taught in most of the Churches today, will continue to spew old bottle traditions into adulthood. But a young child fed the "new wine" of God's Word from the start, even being young what they are given to understand will break those old bottles of the traditions of men, because those old bottles cannot hold the "new wine" of God's Word.
Your allegory is correct, your application of it is not. It is impossible for young children to understand such truths, and with that understanding, teach others, for with understanding comes the ability to convinced the gainsayers, which no children have.  Children being under the age of twenty! There was a reason why God waited to send men out to preach at the age of around thirty. Are you old enough to understand this? I have been there and way past there and looking back understand why young men should wait.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #20 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 03:26:53 »
No, it is not... impossible. It all depends upon who one listens to, and who God gives understanding to. A little child that hears nothing but old bottle traditions of men, which is what is taught in most of the Churches today, will continue to spew old bottle traditions into adulthood. But a young child fed the "new wine" of God's Word from the start, even being young what they are given to understand will break those old bottles of the traditions of men, because those old bottles cannot hold the "new wine" of God's Word.
Your allegory is correct, your application of it is not. It is impossible for young children to understand such truths, and with that understanding, teach others, for with understanding comes the ability to convinced the gainsayers, which no children have.  Children being under the age of twenty! There was a reason why God waited to send men out to preach at the age of around thirty. Are you old enough to understand this? I have been there and way past there and looking back understand why young men should wait.

All I can say then is, man have you been in the wrong Church.

It's just like computers, 'garbage in, garbage out', no matter what age one is.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #21 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 06:48:29 »
if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.

I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture...it was how I was brought.  Once I began to study, I realized that did not fit with scripture, so I started to believe in the post-trib rapture.  As I continued to study, I realized that the post-trib rapture theory also did not align with scripture.  So I started believing in the mid-trip rapture theory.  I have found that is the only one that aligns with scripture.

That being said, I am starting to question the whole seven year tribulation all together.

Fortunately faith in my savior is not dependent on, nor determined by, exactly how the end times play out.  Neither is my salvation.

Romans 14.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #22 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 08:09:50 »
Fortunately faith in my savior is not dependent on, nor determined by, exactly how the end times play out.  Neither is my salvation.
My dear brother, you are correct that our eternal salvation is not based upon our understanding, but, is based upon the grace of our God given freely to us, through our Lord Jesus Christ. What a great blessing of God's grace toward you, that you are growing and making progress in his truth. It does indeed take time to be able to comprehend truth that is hidden in the holy scriptures....and the truth is, we will never fully be converted as Paul and the apostles were, but especially Paul and John. The Lord Jesus be with your spirit as you seek him with your whole heart. Thank you for your honest testimony, this only help others who struggles with the scriptures in coming to a more perfect knowledge of the truth.   

Online RB

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #23 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 08:16:35 »
All I can say then is, man have you been in the wrong Church
Well now, would it surprise you if I tell you that I have not been part of organized religion for almost forty years. As a matter of truth, very little in my whole walk with God, but I have for around five years or so, in the past, and that was enough for me, to convince me to that God's truth is not welcome in most places. I will not judge all, for I only can judge what I have been around and seen first hand, which is right here in the bible belt of the world, so people say. 

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #24 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 08:27:52 »
Now, once your tyraid is over, do you have anything to add that actually... addresses the Scriptures in question from the previous posts?
You have problem being nice to those who do not see it the way you do.  I am not saying that you cannot be firm and steadfast, but there is a way that you can present truth, so as to win (in a practical sense) those who do not see it the way you believe the scriptures teach. You have forgotten Paul's example that he left us? 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #25 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 08:45:53 »
Now, once your tyraid is over,

No tirade.  Did you miss my use of  ::noworries:: . That indicates feelings opposite of a tirade.

 rofl ::noworries:: rofl ::noworries:: rofl ::noworries::

Still happy.  Even though you think you are in an exclusive club the rest of us are left out of and the only way in is to agree with an obey you.  ::tippinghat::  Have a great day in the Lord! ::smile::

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #26 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 08:47:38 »
if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.

I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture...it was how I was brought.  Once I began to study, I realized that did not fit with scripture, so I started to believe in the post-trib rapture.  As I continued to study, I realized that the post-trib rapture theory also did not align with scripture.  So I started believing in the mid-trip rapture theory.  I have found that is the only one that aligns with scripture.

That being said, I am starting to question the whole seven year tribulation all together.

Fortunately faith in my savior is not dependent on, nor determined by, exactly how the end times play out.  Neither is my salvation.

Romans 14.

 ::amen!:: ::amen!:: ::amen!:: and  ::amen!::

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #27 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:21:33 »
if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.

I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture...it was how I was brought.  Once I began to study, I realized that did not fit with scripture, so I started to believe in the post-trib rapture.  As I continued to study, I realized that the post-trib rapture theory also did not align with scripture.  So I started believing in the mid-trip rapture theory.  I have found that is the only one that aligns with scripture.

That being said, I am starting to question the whole seven year tribulation all together.

Fortunately faith in my savior is not dependent on, nor determined by, exactly how the end times play out.  Neither is my salvation.

Romans 14.

I can understand your confusion then, because God's Word does not declare either a pre-trib nor a mid-trib coming of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church.

When Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His coming is immediately after the tribulation, then one who claims to be one of His is supposed to trust in what He said there. End of story.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #28 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:37:52 »
All I can say then is, man have you been in the wrong Church
Well now, would it surprise you if I tell you that I have not been part of organized religion for almost forty years. As a matter of truth, very little in my whole walk with God, but I have for around five years or so, in the past, and that was enough for me, to convince me to that God's truth is not welcome in most places. I will not judge all, for I only can judge what I have been around and seen first hand, which is right here in the bible belt of the world, so people say.

I've heard for many years certain groups trying to turn around the long accepted meaning of that word antichrist, their saying per Scripture it does not apply to any one specific person. It's actually difficult to listen to those, because a thorough study of Bible prophecy for the end declares a coming false one using several different titles, showing those who want to try and disprove that with debunking the antichrist meaning are simply 'out to lunch'.

The reason why Satan's workers came up with that attempt to debunk a singular antichrist is because that exactly is what's coming, a singular Antichrist, but that won't be his name. In Jerusalem they will call him Messiah in the Hebrew, and it will not be our Lord Jesus Christ, but an imposter.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #29 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:40:02 »
When Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His coming is immediately after the tribulation, then one who claims to be one of His is supposed to trust in what He said there. End of story.

Quote from: Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I don't see Jesus saying He's coming immediately after the seven year tribulation.  He says after the "distress of those days."

I urge you to do some more studying.  Look at how Jesus' words match what happens in Revelation, which matches what Paul says about the last trumpet.

Unfortunately, I know that you won't.  You won't study anything that disproves your theory.  You will simply continue to insult those who disagree with you.

Perhaps you should take a break from eschatology and read Romans chapter 14 and 1John chapter 4.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #30 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:42:56 »
Now, once your tyraid is over, do you have anything to add that actually... addresses the Scriptures in question from the previous posts?
You have problem being nice to those who do not see it the way you do.  I am not saying that you cannot be firm and steadfast, but there is a way that you can present truth, so as to win (in a practical sense) those who do not see it the way you believe the scriptures teach. You have forgotten Paul's example that he left us? 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

No, I just have problems with those who dilly-dally without giving any Scripture evidence to support their position.

You spend more time attacking the individual than posting Scripture to back up what you say.

And your 1 Cor.9:19-23 argument is irrelevant to the multitude of Scriptures I've already posted on our antichrist topic of discussion.

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #31 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:46:03 »
Now, once your tyraid is over,

No tirade.  Did you miss my use of  ::noworries:: . That indicates feelings opposite of a tirade.

 rofl ::noworries:: rofl ::noworries:: rofl ::noworries::

Still happy.  Even though you think you are in an exclusive club the rest of us are left out of and the only way in is to agree with an obey you.  ::tippinghat::  Have a great day in the Lord! ::smile::

I understand that a deeper Bible understanding, especially in today's times, does... insult some people that haven't really studied for themselves with God's help, but instead heed a lot of what comes out of the seminaries (i.e., leaven doctrines).

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #32 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:48:33 »
if they mean a 'Pre-trib Rapture' or a 'Post-trib Rapture", because the post-tribulational rapture term actually does align with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27.

I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture...it was how I was brought.  Once I began to study, I realized that did not fit with scripture, so I started to believe in the post-trib rapture.  As I continued to study, I realized that the post-trib rapture theory also did not align with scripture.  So I started believing in the mid-trip rapture theory.  I have found that is the only one that aligns with scripture.

That being said, I am starting to question the whole seven year tribulation all together.

Fortunately faith in my savior is not dependent on, nor determined by, exactly how the end times play out.  Neither is my salvation.

Romans 14.

I can understand your confusion then, because God's Word does not declare either a pre-trib nor a mid-trib coming of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church.

When Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His coming is immediately after the tribulation, then one who claims to be one of His is supposed to trust in what He said there. End of story.


I can't find no physical rapture in the scriptures, let alone pre-trib or mid-trib or
post trib.

Just a question for you....

Matthew 24,  31 states, "and they shall gather together His elect from the fours winds,
from one end of heaven to the other."

Now I look at that verse and see that the elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other,

does that mean they are already in heaven when they are gathered?

If so if we are "raptured" from heaven, then where are we "raptured" to?

Offline dpr

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #33 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 12:56:31 »
When Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His coming is immediately after the tribulation, then one who claims to be one of His is supposed to trust in what He said there. End of story.

Quote from: Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I don't see Jesus saying He's coming immediately after the seven year tribulation.  He says after the "distress of those days."

I urge you to do some more studying.  Look at how Jesus' words match what happens in Revelation, which matches what Paul says about the last trumpet.

Unfortunately, I know that you won't.  You won't study anything that disproves your theory.  You will simply continue to insult those who disagree with you.

Perhaps you should take a break from eschatology and read Romans chapter 14 and 1John chapter 4.

Are you using the NIV?

Look it up in the KJV, ASV, Living Bible, NASV, NKJV versions, which has it as "tribulation", not "distress".

The Greek word is thlipsin, which means 'affliction, persecution, tribulation, anguish' etc. It is rendered "affliction" in the Mark 13 version of our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

I don't claim to be perfect, but I do check out different Bible versions to see how something was brought into English. And I also check things out in the manuscripts of the original Bible languages, which is very easy to do since previous Bible scholars have left us those kind of study tools.

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Re: Meaning of Rapture, A Clarification
« Reply #34 on: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 13:08:09 »
No, I just have problems with those who dilly-dally without giving any Scripture evidence to support their position.
Still no excuse to be rude, and you cannot justify being so. Sounds like one on my grandchildren defending why they do this or that.
Quote
You spend more time attacking the individual than posting Scripture to back up what you say.
Sir, how long have you been on this forum? One week, two? You talk like you been here for while. You do not know enough about my post to even comment, and make such a statement.
Quote
And your 1 Cor.9:19-23 argument is irrelevant to the multitude of Scriptures I've already posted on our antichrist topic of discussion.
Sir, you have given almost nothing in comparison of what is in the scriptures concerning such a topic. As a matter of truth, you have given very, very little~we have not even begin to touch the hem of the subject. The Lord willing, I am not going nowhere, so stay with me and let us see who can defend his doctrine. You have not as of yet said one little word that I believe I could disprove it with sound biblical hermeneutics, per Ezra's and Isaiah's examples.  I have posted some post for you concerning the abomination of desolation, that you commented on~so in the meantime, go there and let us talk. Daniel's little horn; Christ's added comments concerning the abomination of desolation; Paul's man of sin; John's antichrist/beast are all one and the same subject per sound biblical exegesis.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 29, 2015 - 13:13:24 by RB »

 

     
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