Author Topic: Gathering the Harvests  (Read 871 times)

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Online 4WD

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #35 on: Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 07:11:06 »
Wrong? Based upon man's fairness?
First of all for the one who believes in God of the Bible, the only fairness is the fairness that comes from God.
Quote from: RB
Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.
Actually, there is not one word in the bible about God making Adam the head/representative of anyone.  That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.
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Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?
I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).
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If you have a more righteous plan, then let me hear it.
You have heard it again and again, and you have read it from God's word, but it doesn't align with your TULIP scenario and therefore you reject it.
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Would you rather be put under a covenant works WITH your sinful nature in order to inherit eternal life? .
Why would I want that?  I am not in fact under a covenant works. to inherit eternal life.
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He was created after God's image, which image consisted of wisdom, righteousness, knowledge! An image that God did not give to the rest of His creation. Besides, I KNOW what this image consisted of by understanding what the NEW MAN in Christ has been created in....
Interesting.  As stated by God, Adam was created without a knowledge of good and evil.  He obtained that after disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You say that the God did not give to the rest of His creation the image that He gave to Adam. Where, exactly, did you read that?  Genesis 5:1-3 tells that God created Adam in His own likeness.  Nothing there says anything about Adam not having that image.  It then says Adam's son was born in Adam's likeness, after his image.  Again, there is nothing there that would even suggest that the Adam's likeness was any other than the likeness in which God created him.
Quote from: RB
He knew, but allowed his wife to deceive him~Satan deceived Eve, and Adam allow his wife to lead him to disobey God. He sinned with his eyes open, unlike his wife, who was beguiled by the serpent.
There are several red flags to be cast down with that statement.  He knew but she didn't? Where do you get that?  She was deceived by Satan, but he was only deceived by Eve.  You say that like there is a difference.  What? His sin was somehow not as bad as hers?  His eyes were open but hers were what? close? Where in the world to you get such stuff?
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They only had ONE commandment, which was no to eat of the tree in the midst of the beautiful garden. Many of the ten commandments did not even applied to them before their fall into sin.
First, you have no idea at all what other commandments were given to Adam and Eve.  And second, it doesn't really matter if they did or didn't; the simple truth is they disobeyed the one identified in Genesis 3. Whether there were others is moot.  It only takes one.
Quote from: RB
First, it clearly said: No, 4WD, IN ADAM all die~meaning when Adam sin, all his posterity DIE, spiritual,
Again, you are making stuff up.  All the expression, in Adam, which by the way occurs only once and that is in 1 Corinthians 15:22, is simply a signifying of being human.  That verse is, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive". "In Adam" is the physical while "in Christ" is the spiritual. As a physical being we will die, as a spiritual being we will live. There is absolutely nothing in that verse that speaks about Adam's sin having anything to do with our dying.

In getting ready to exegete on Romans 5:12, you said,
Quote from: RB
Bear with me, it's going to be detail so, there can be no misunderstanding of the truth in this scripture.
You then proceeded to eisegete the absolutely worst bit of Calvinist doctrine I have yet seen.

Just for reference, Romans 5:12 says, (ESV)  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Quote from: RB
The first Adam separated himself and us from God
That is pure RB talk.  That is simply not in that verse anywhere.  And all your "explanation" goes south at that point.  while the sin of Adam did indeed cause some sort of a separation between Adam and God, it was not one of complete separation as you would indicate.  God continued to be able to converse with Adam and Adam understood quite well what God was saying.  There was no Total Depravity established in Adam by his sinning.  But even more, nothing about that one way or the other is discussed in that verse.  It says that "sin came into the world".  Here "the world" (as in John 3:16) is the world of mankind, the physical sphere of human beings; sin had already entered world of angels through the sin of Satan (1 Joh 3:8).  Paul adds here that death entered through sin.  As I have repeated here so often, the death that entered through sin was not physical death, but rather spiritual death.  I think it is well accepted that the physical death of the entire animal kingdom existed as a part of creation.  So clearly physical death was not introduced as a result of Adam's sin.  Moreover, from Genesis 3:22, it is self-evident that Adam's physical death was only an indirect result of his sin; Adam's physical death was the direct result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which had the property of sustaining physical life, i.e., the putting off of physical death.  Thus what entered the world as a result of Adam's sin was spiritual death; and it entered by way of Adam's spiritual death, his estrangement from God. 

Next, Paul says, so death spread to all men.  Why or how? Paul says, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". There is no ambiguity in what Paul says. It is because all sinned.  It is not because Adam sinned; rather it is because all men sinned.
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As by one man~Here is the doctrine of representation~one man representing many men in the sight of God. Here is the doctrine of imputation~the act(s) of one man being applied legally/judicially to others. This doctrine is also called ancestral sin and federal headship of Adam and other manmade names.
There is no such thing there.  There is no representation even suggested there.  It is a simple statement that sin was first introduced to this earthly world by the one man, Adam.  And with that sin, Adam, died spiritually.  The manner in which everyone subsequent to Adam died spiritually was through their sins, i.e., "death spread to all men because all men sinned".  They did it to themselves. They didn't die through any representation.  They died through their own sinning.
Quote from: RB
Use of “as … so” means, “As this occurred in this specified manner … so this event also occurred that same specified way.” This powerful form of grammar is found in verses 12,15,16,18, and 19.
That is a true statement.  It is really too bad that you have not really understood that powerful form of grammar.  What exactly does the "so...as" here tell us.  It says, just as Adam died spiritually because of his sin, so also all men die spiritually because they all sin.
Quote from: RB
And death by sin~Death is the necessary consequence and result of sin before a holy and righteous God (6:23). God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). Sin and death (Gen 2:17) were brought into the human world by Adam’s sin (5:14; 6:23). Spiritual death came immediately (Genesis 2:17; Ephesains 2:1), physical death came 930 years later for Adam (Genesis 3:19; 5:5; Hebrews 9:27), and eternal death awaits final execution (Revelation 20:6,14).
But again, physical death came, not the direct result of Adam's sin, but as a result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer haveing access to the life preserving fruit of the Tree of Life.
Quote from: RB
A judicial sentence was passed ~death was assigned to all men as the just and holy punishment, even to infants and ignorant (5:14), for Adam’s singular sin in the Garden of Eden.
You keep talking about physical life and death.  Nothing in the whole of Romans 5 has anything to do with our physical life and death.  The only physical death that is mentioned is Christ's physical death on the cross.

And the entire rest of your comments there concerning Romans 5 is nothing more than an Augustinian/Calvinistic atrocious attempt to promote Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity.  You presented above the "powerful form of grammar" of the "so...as" construction.  Then in all of your discourse concerning the verses from 12 on, you ignored the truth presented by it.

The point of the "so...as" construction is in the truth presented in the "as" part of the statement.  In verse 18: (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. , the first thing we need to see is that we have "as .....upon all men....; even so ....upon all men....". Thus, whatever the "as" refers to, it is upon all men, and by the powerful form of grammar then whatever the "so" refers, it is also upon all men.

Having established the absolute consistency demanded by the "as...so" construction, we next look to see what it is that is confirmed for all men.  In verse 18 the "as" part seems clearly to indicate that by Adam's offense brought condemnation to all men.  How?  You and many others have concluded that condemnation comes upon all men at birth.  You call it Original Sin.  I agree.  So then what should we conclude came upon all men by Jesus' righteousness?  Paul said justification of life.  How? Well to be consistent, one must conclude that justification of life comes upon all men at birth.  I call that Original Grace.

So what does that mean? What is it that Paul is trying to tell us?  What Paul is saying there that the effects upon all men of what Jesus did negated entirely the effects upon all men of what Adam did.

It is important to note that none of the discussion in verses 12 through 19 have anything to do with what we have done.  None of it speaks to the effects of our sins.  Paul takes up that discussion immediately following in Chapter 6.

That entire passage speaks only to the comparison of the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience.  The fact is that what Jesus did wiped out completely the effects of what Adam did.  Only in that way could Paul say, speaking of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience that "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"[ (v.19)/i].

Offline RB

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #36 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 05:41:31 »
That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.
I had said this to you:
Quote from: RB
Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.
So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.
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Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.

4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.

As we have said above there is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates by his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death to all which came from his lions; and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, Christ is called by Paul, the last Adam.

If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted to them for their legal justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were "sanctified in Christ Jesus," the apostle says~"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from
heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

The information which the Scriptures give us of the sin of the first man, show that it was a complete subversion of nature, and the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world; they also show us that the purpose of sending Jesus Christ into the world was to destroy the empire of Satan, sin, and death.

One of the old divines said:  "On the Covenants, of two Adams, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49. As the one is called the first man, the other is called the second, even the Lord from heaven. Now, as there were innumerable multitudes of men between the first man and Him, it is plain that He is called the second man for some very peculiar reason. And what else can that be but because
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He is the representative and father of all His spiritual seed, as the first man was of all his natural seed? The one is the head, the federal head of the earthly men, the other of the heavenly. Since the one is called the second man, not because He was the second in the order of creation, but because He was the second public head, it follows that the other is called the first man not because he was first created, or in opposition to his descendants, but because he was the first public head in opposition to Christ the second.
So, the two Adams are the heads of the two covenants. The one the representative of all who are under the covenant of works, communicating his image unto them; the other the representative of all who are under the covenant of grace, and communicating His image unto them. By the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, and by the obedience of the other many shall be made
righteous."

Again, you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.

I asked you: "Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?"
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:11:06
I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).
4WD, you saying you most certainly do, and proving the same are worlds apart! Again, God provided Adam all he needed to obey, he did not have a body of SIN and DEATH as we all have by nature. He provided Adam with a will created after His image, FREE from corruption.

Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~
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Romans 5:12~Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons. This does not mean, as some explain it, that infants become involved in the consequences of Adam’s sin without his guilt. Adam stood as the head, the forefather and representative of all his posterity They were all created in him; and in the guilt of his sin, as well as its consequence, they became partakers.  These truths, that sin, death, and condemnation come upon all by one man, are clearly taught in the following verses, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. Through the offense of one, many are dead. The judgment was by the one that sinned to condemnation. By one man’s offense death reigned by one. By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.

Adam’s sin was as truly the sin of every one of his posterity, as if it had been personally committed by him. It is only in this way that all could be involved in its consequences. Besides, it is only in this light that it is illustrative of justification by Christ. Believers truly die
with Christ, and pay the debt in Him by their union or oneness with Him. It belongs not to us to inquire how these things can be. We receive them on the testimony of God. Secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children. It is revealed in the scriptures, and it would be a sign of unbelief to reject God's testimony.

Your post is long which that's okay, yet for me to answer it in the manner in which I should, I'm going to break it down into one, or two more posts.

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #37 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 07:47:14 »
So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words. The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.
First off, all that "communicated" stuff is little more than contrived verbiage to sound like you're correct in your analysis. The obvious reason for that is that so that in what follows you can claim that the effects of Adam's disobedience, his sin, is imputed to the whole of humanity, while the effect of Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is imputed to only a few, namely those you claimed to be "elected" to salvation. The very idea that Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is so ineffectual compared to Adam's disobedience, his sin, is truly a slap in the face of God, both the Father and the Son. You should be very careful to even listen to such garbage.

How is Adam a type for Jesus?  That is well explained in the verses that follow.  And irony is that you reject it all.  You made a big deal out of the "so....as" powerful form of grammar and then you proceed to ignore what it actually says.  In your reply #33, you spoke of 1 Corinthians 15:22.  Ironically, you almost got it, and then you lost it again.  It is true that in that verse we have a case in which Adam is indeed a type, a figure, of Christ. 

However, the subject there was the resurrection of the dead. Paul says there, "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Cor 15:19-22). Here obviously the subject is physical death. Clearly here Paul is speaking of every last human being who has ever lived or will ever live. All men will die; all men will be resurrected.

The interesting feature is that this type, this figure, deals with the end of life.  The passage in Romans five clearly deals with the beginning of life. In the 1 Corinthian 15 type, it is the physical.  In the Romans 5 type it is the spiritual.  In both cases the effect of one man, Jesus, completely undoes the effect of one man, Adam.  Your error in all of this is that you proclaim Adam as a type of Jesus for all humanity in death but only for some in life.

Paul wrote, (ESV)  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18).  

RB says, "No, that is not right.  It should be, (RB) "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for only some men" . Here the some men you have in mind are your so-called elect, the elect of Calvin.

The point you refuse to see here is that Paul is speaking about the effects brought upon all men at birth (or at conception). 

Adam is a type for Jesus in the spiritual life of all men in birth and in the physical life of all men in death.  In both cases, the effect of Jesus' obedience undoes the effect of Adam's disobedience.  And that my dear brother in Christ is at the very heart of grace. You claim allegiance to original sin; I claim allegiance to original grace.

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4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.
Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Abraham was justified by his belief, his faith, in God.

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #38 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:01:10 »
Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons.
Yes, of course, I did intend Romans 5:12.  And, of course, you deny what it actually says.  What it says is that the reason that death (spiritual death) passed to all men is because all men sinned.  No one can sin not in their own persons.  Sin is, by every possible definition, in their own persons. Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die......20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #38 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:01:10 »

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #39 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:14:24 »
Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  
Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #40 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:16:40 »
Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  
Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

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Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Reply #41 on: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:21:13 »
I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.
Your joy and perfect peace comes from thinking you have been appointed as one of the elect.  And yet, you cannot prove that you really have been so appointed.  You think and you hope that is the case.  But that is all it is.  You have no biblical assurance that you have been selected.