New Jerusalem

[rezar]

The city is the bride. Just had to say that.

Precisely. And the harlot "Babylon" & the "the Bride" are exactly antithetical to each other in Rev.
We see that upon the destruction of "Babylon" the Bride does celebrate bc the Bride is the new creation in Christ- the church.  But we must honor God's word as far as the time was concerned. The church depicted as the "Bride" is indeed those who had the first-fruits of the Spirit. The church is complete up to that point in history. We still are considered to "have a part" in the "First Resurrection" which was Christ- spiritually on earth - reborn too- until we too die physically & our spirit goes to heaven & we become whatever He intended our "bodies" to be like in heaven. In a sense, we all have a "marriage reunion" to Christ in heaven as perfect. Here we are the church where righteousness dwells but the rest of the world- outside our gates - are still the unbelievers, murderers, dogs, etc, who should wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb like us- & find salvation - in this life now.

I think i have an article on the "first-fruit believers" those who were FIRST FRUITS of the HOLY SPIRIT & can be no other as firstfruits. Only them. So that's who we see in Rev. as the Bride. Those who were invited to the wedding were not worthy (Israel of the flesh) So the kingdom was given to a nation bearing fruits thereof. But we cannot forget our heritage. Salvation is of the Jews. The faithful remnant of Israel & the believing Gentiles became "the Bride" & the N.T. Church, seen in the New Jerusalem. Which is the "Israel of God" or spiritual Israel= Jew & Gentile in Christ.
http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=53&a=2217

[rezar]

Ever notice how the so-called the assumed literal thousand years in Scripture never notes the words "on earth" in Rev.20? They reigned with Christ for "a thousand years" is an expression of honor. Notice how the church's next stop is the New Jerusalem (Rev.2&3) Then look at the paultry few verses it gives to explain the  literal thousand years duration! Why? The whole N.T. period of approx. 40 yrs. takes up 22 chapters- while a literal thousand year duration in the future, should allow for many, many chapters, even books, devoted to explaining it. But the Bible is silent. Why? bc it is a metaphor & not literall!

Notice they will have to always add "on earth" to the Holy Writ to make the literal argument of a thousand yrs. plausible. But are we to "add" to the prophecy?  The Bible says NO!

Here's an introduction for those interested in the Preterist pov & the New Jerusalem which we claim the Bible says has come already in prophecy & we are not waiting for the fulfillment in Christ about anything. He reigns now!

    Read the article when you have time bc it's a couple of pages:

http://www.restorationgj.com/id109.htm                                 

[Amo]

Revelation 20  1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The above verses have been color coded for the purpose of pointing out the differences between what happens to the lost during the thousand year period of the above, and what happens to the saved during this same period.  The writings in blue, refer to the lost.  The writings in red, refer to the saved.  Let us examine these scriptures to see what is transpiring during this thousand year period.

Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit.  We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period.  Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time.  The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years.  It states that the judgment was given unto them.  The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

I Corinthians 4  5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
 
I Corinthians 6  2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life.  This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world.  This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there.  Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.

The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why, or why not, certain people are, or are not in heaven with the saved.  No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years.  Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there.  In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all (Rom. 14:10&11,  Php. 2:9-11).

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  Then it says that this is the first resurrection.  That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all.  But rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.

Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy.  It also points out that the second death will have no power over them.  For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.

Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period.  This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations.  In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected.  Thus having died once already, at Christ’s second coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8,  Rev. 6:14-17), or before that event, they will die again the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan.  That both the saved, and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.

John 5  28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[/color]

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years.  The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.

So now, the wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God, and devours them (verse 9).  This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15).  The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period.  This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).

Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast.  The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period.  Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

Job 17  13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Psalm 30  3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Proverbs 1  11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Isaiah 38  17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Jeremiah 41  7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.

In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead.  A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people.  If the bible then, tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave, with the dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it.  This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead.  Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations, or peoples to deceive.  Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

Jer 25:  30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4:  23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

Isaiah 14  12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Though all the kings, and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial.  Though he will be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead.  He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands.  Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

Isaiah 24  18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days would be the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

Revelation 21  7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I want to be in that city, don’t you.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

[rezar]

Amo, do you always talk "at" people like that? 

I want to be in that city, don’t you.

Well, if u aren't by now then may be you are those right outside the church gates that defileth bc there are only 2 choices mentioned:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars

The New Jerusalem has come. It is the church universal in Spirit & Truth.

[Amo]

Well, if u aren't by now then may be you are those right outside the church gates that defileth bc there are only 2 choices mentioned:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars

The New Jerusalem has come. It is the church universal in Spirit & Truth.

Either I am what you say, or you are deceived.  There is no in between.  If you are deceived, then you are one of the liars that will be outside of the city.  You trash all of the scriptural evidence I supplied in my explanation, in favor of what you want to believe.  The bible says no where that the New Jerusalem is only a spiritual city.  In fact, it says nowhere that it is a spiritual city at all.  This must be presumed to fit into Preterism.  Just like all the details the scriptures give concerning the same must be also be ignored or explained away in order to fit Preterism.  You make the scriptures say what you believe, rather than believing what the scriptures say. 

[Stucky]

Rev.21:10, apostle John says:
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Has the new Jerusalem come? Of course it has! The saints had reached the heavenly Mt. Zion in the spiritual realm. They had come to it on earth, but there it had no continuing city.(Heb.12)

Rev.21:10 & the next verses describing the bride & church of Christ are expansions upon the vision of Ezekiel. Like John, Ezekiel was taken to a mountain & shown the spiritual city, new Jerusalem. As with Ezekiel, the vision of the new Jerusalem in Rev. follows the destruction of the old:
A New City, a New Temple
 1 In the twenty-fifth year of our captivity, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was captured, on the very same day the hand of the LORD was upon me; and He took me there. 2 In the visions of God He took me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain; on it toward the south was something like the structure of a city.(Ezek.40:1-2)

In Ezekiel's vision of the new Jerusalem, the spiritual city replaces the earthly one that had been destroyed. So here in Rev., the heavenly Jerusalem replaces the earthly Jerusalem that murdered the Lord.
Throughout Revelation, the "Great City" referred to the Great wh*re, spiritual Sodom & Egypt where the Lord was crucified. (Rev.11:8; 14:8; 16:19)
John's appropriation & application of new Jerusalem in Rev. 21:10, further helps to identify the Great wh*re (Harlot) as the Jerusalem of old.
The city comes from God, bc He is its builder & maker- And its place in redemption's story as the habitation of the saints was according to His eternal purpose, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Eph.3:10-11)

It is the city Abraham looked for (Heb.11:10), who now shares it with the saved of every age & generation on earth. (Matt.8:11-12; cf. Eph 1:10).

Revelation 21 (New International Version)

Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
 5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[d] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


I'm not a bright guy so if I misunderstand you please correct me.  It seems you are saying that Revelation 21 has already been fulfilled.  That the New Jerusalem exists here on Earth at this time but we can't see it.

If that is correct then I have a question:

Does this happen right now?:  "4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

[rezar]

by Stucky.

If that is correct then I have a question:

Does this happen right now?:  "4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

It was a spiritual truth since the New Jerusalem came (for Israel in this case in particular in AD70)
The source of the no more tears is passage taken from Isa.19, where it describes cessation of the crying & the nations' captivity to Babylon. The prophetic truth here about Israel.
The remnant would be called by a new name (New Jerusalem or Christians- Isa.65&66)

This applies to the 12 tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem. Although the believing Gentiles are part of the New Testament church of course. But the tears & sorrow are about Israel. Just as Israel wept & hung their harps by the rivers of Babylon (Ps.137:1) & the ransomed would return to Zion with songs & everlasting joy upon their heads & sorrow & tears would be wiped away from their eyes (Isa.35:10)
The promise to those that came through the Great Tribulation is now fulfilled:
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[a] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev.7:15-17)

That is a spiritual Truth regarding the living water Jesus gives all who thirst - NOT a scene of Heaven only!

In saying that all tears, death, sorrow crying & pain are done away is not meant that the church was to never experience persecution again, anymore than it meant post-exilic Israel was immune to crying & tears for all time. These are merely figures of speech describing the removal of the sorrows associated with the persecution attending the end of the age.
As Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be again. " (Mt.24:21)
It was about Israel- the no more tears.
Death was spiritual death in Adam. In Christ, that all changed. And we should never lose the physical protective response of "pain" either!

[farouk]

Revelation chapter 21 has a great description of the heavenly Jerusalem.

[rezar]

Revelation chapter 21 has a great description of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation chapter 21 has a great description of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Farouk, it is not heaven! These are spiritual realities on Earth. It's the New Testament universal church being described.

Flesh & blood cannot.................   Are there literal trees with fruits & medicine leaves in heaven, or was it the garden of Eden that was lost in Adam?

These are spiritual truths. "Blessed are they that do His commands, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
To eat of the tree of life was the promise to the church at Ephesus (Rev.2:7).
It meant to enjoy the fruit of the doctrinal & ethical teaching of the New Testament that would bring eternal life.
James makes use of the metaphor of the tree in describing the word, saying, "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (Jm.1:21).
The Word is the medium by which the Spirit indwells man & mortifies his flesh (1Pet 4:1)- grafted upon the heart of man, it imparts life & regeneration.
To enter the city by the gates means to be admitted as a son or daughter of God & a joint heir with Christ, in the kingdom of the Father. The city is the spiritual abode of the saints.

[rezar]

That is why the 1st century church said, "Even so come Lord Jesus." They lived in the "end of the age"

But the Spirit & the Bride (the New Jerusalem church universal in spirit & truth) say as they say TODAY:

Rev.22:17,
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Same as:
Jn.4:10,
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

[Stucky]

Rezar said:   "In saying that all tears, death, sorrow crying & pain are done away is not meant that the church was to never experience persecution again, anymore than it meant post-exilic Israel was immune to crying & tears for all time. These are merely figures of speech describing the removal of the sorrows associated with the persecution attending the end of the age.
As Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be again. " (Mt.24:21)
It was about Israel- the no more tears.
Death was spiritual death in Adam. In Christ, that all changed. And we should never lose the physical protective response of "pain" either!"


So are you saying that post-exile Israel was never to suffer again?  What about the Inquisition and the Holocaust?  What about all the wars fought since 1948 and the return of Israel to the Promised Land?

[rezar]

Rezar said:   "In saying that all tears, death, sorrow crying & pain are done away is not meant that the church was to never experience persecution again, anymore than it meant post-exilic Israel was immune to crying & tears for all time. These are merely figures of speech describing the removal of the sorrows associated with the persecution attending the end of the age.
As Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be again. " (Mt.24:21)
It was about Israel- the no more tears.
Death was spiritual death in Adam. In Christ, that all changed. And we should never lose the physical protective response of "pain" either!"


So are you saying that post-exile Israel was never to suffer again?  What about the Inquisition and the Holocaust?  What about all the wars fought since 1948 and the return of Israel to the Promised Land?

Biblical Judaism ended in AD70. Even Rabbis today recognize AD70 as the time of the end. God terminated His theological relationship with Israel & left the temple made with hands 2,000 yrs. ago.
The truth is that Old Covenant Israel was never God's determinative goal. It was God's eternal intent to remove the Old Covenant nation, with its temple  & cultus, with something far better (Gal.3:23; Col.2:14; Hebrews 8:1-3; 9:6-10)

Paul, preaching the glory of Christ & the church, said that the goal of all previous ages had arrived (1Cor.10:11). Paul was preaching salvation in Christ, in the church, & that was the goal of the previous ages.

All Jewish genealogy ends with Christ's generation also. There is no Jew-Gentile difference in Christ in the New Testament. It depended on faith.

So any religious Talmudic Jews today are practicing their man-made religion & they know it. Biblical Judaism ended. The end of the Jewish age & the Law passed.

So nothing (good or bad) would be prophesied about Israel after AD70.

God judges this world anyway, daily, between good & evil.  Israel is no longer the apple of His eye- but ALL nations (in Christ) are.
Gen.12:3,
 3 I will bless those who bless you,
      And I will curse him who curses you;
      And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

[Stucky]

Rezar said:   "In saying that all tears, death, sorrow crying & pain are done away is not meant that the church was to never experience persecution again, anymore than it meant post-exilic Israel was immune to crying & tears for all time. These are merely figures of speech describing the removal of the sorrows associated with the persecution attending the end of the age.
As Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be again. " (Mt.24:21)
It was about Israel- the no more tears.
Death was spiritual death in Adam. In Christ, that all changed. And we should never lose the physical protective response of "pain" either!"


So are you saying that post-exile Israel was never to suffer again?  What about the Inquisition and the Holocaust?  What about all the wars fought since 1948 and the return of Israel to the Promised Land?

Biblical Judaism ended in AD70. Even Rabbis today recognize AD70 as the time of the end. God terminated His theological relationship with Israel & left the temple made with hands 2,000 yrs. ago.
The truth is that Old Covenant Israel was never God's determinative goal. It was God's eternal intent to remove the Old Covenant nation, with its temple  & cultus, with something far better (Gal.3:23; Col.2:14; Hebrews 8:1-3; 9:6-10)

Paul, preaching the glory of Christ & the church, said that the goal of all previous ages had arrived (1Cor.10:11). Paul was preaching salvation in Christ, in the church, & that was the goal of the previous ages.

All Jewish genealogy ends with Christ's generation also. There is no Jew-Gentile difference in Christ in the New Testament. It depended on faith.

So any religious Talmudic Jews today are practicing their man-made religion & they know it. Biblical Judaism ended. The end of the Jewish age & the Law passed.

So nothing (good or bad) would be prophesied about Israel after AD70.

God judges this world anyway, daily, between good & evil.  Israel is no longer the apple of His eye- but ALL nations (in Christ) are.
Gen.12:3,
 3 I will bless those who bless you,
      And I will curse him who curses you;
      And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Now wait a minute cowboy.  In one paragraph you use the rabbis of today to bolster your argument :

"Even Rabbis today recognize AD70 as the time of the end."

And in another you say they know they are practising false religion:

"So any religious Talmudic Jews today are practicing their man-made religion & they know it."

Now, are they right are or they wrong?  Even YOU can't have it both ways rezar.

[HRoberson]

The Holy City in Rev 21 is the church, the Bride of the Lamb. It is not Heaven.

[farouk]

r:

What about Romans 11, which speaks of blindness in part happened to Israel, 'until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved', even though now they are 'enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers' sakes'.

Surely a future for Israel is in view here?

Rezar said:   "In saying that all tears, death, sorrow crying & pain are done away is not meant that the church was to never experience persecution again, anymore than it meant post-exilic Israel was immune to crying & tears for all time. These are merely figures of speech describing the removal of the sorrows associated with the persecution attending the end of the age.
As Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be again. " (Mt.24:21)
It was about Israel- the no more tears.
Death was spiritual death in Adam. In Christ, that all changed. And we should never lose the physical protective response of "pain" either!"


So are you saying that post-exile Israel was never to suffer again?  What about the Inquisition and the Holocaust?  What about all the wars fought since 1948 and the return of Israel to the Promised Land?

Biblical Judaism ended in AD70. Even Rabbis today recognize AD70 as the time of the end. God terminated His theological relationship with Israel & left the temple made with hands 2,000 yrs. ago.
The truth is that Old Covenant Israel was never God's determinative goal. It was God's eternal intent to remove the Old Covenant nation, with its temple  & cultus, with something far better (Gal.3:23; Col.2:14; Hebrews 8:1-3; 9:6-10)

Paul, preaching the glory of Christ & the church, said that the goal of all previous ages had arrived (1Cor.10:11). Paul was preaching salvation in Christ, in the church, & that was the goal of the previous ages.

All Jewish genealogy ends with Christ's generation also. There is no Jew-Gentile difference in Christ in the New Testament. It depended on faith.

So any religious Talmudic Jews today are practicing their man-made religion & they know it. Biblical Judaism ended. The end of the Jewish age & the Law passed.

So nothing (good or bad) would be prophesied about Israel after AD70.

God judges this world anyway, daily, between good & evil.  Israel is no longer the apple of His eye- but ALL nations (in Christ) are.
Gen.12:3,
 3 I will bless those who bless you,
      And I will curse him who curses you;
      And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”