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Offline LaSpino3

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No man knows
« on: Wed Oct 11, 2017 - 16:53:44 »
Jesus had just departed with his disciples from the Temple area and went to the Mt. of Olives. He tells his disciples concerning the temple and the buildings that stood on the Temple Mt.,

Matt.24:2, “See you not all these things? Verily I say unto you (the 3 disciples) there shall not be left here one stone (standing) upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Some 40 years later in the year 70 A.D., Titus and his army went into Jerusalem and fulfilled these words. Not one stone remained standing after the Roman’s finished their siege on the city and Temple Mt. This would answer to the disciples first question.

The next two questions were Matt.24:3, “What shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world (age).” Jesus replied,

Mark 13:32, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The verb, Know or knoweth, is used in the present tense, meaning a thing acquainted with. The following comes from Princeton’s Word Net; Wiktionary; and Freebase.                                                                                           

Present tense is the form of language used to refer to an event, or occurrence which is happening now (at the present time), or a thing or knowledge that currently exists.

Also, the present tense is a grammatical tense whose principal function is to locate a situation or event in, or at the present time.

Because the word know was used in the present tense, Jesus spoke concerning his understanding at that present time, but surely not of any future time.

So, the question, “what would have to change in order for Jesus to get this information concerning his return, and then reveal it to us through his Holy Spirit? Jesus came to his earthly ministry as the Jewish Messiah. He came for one purpose and one purpose only,

Matt.15:24, Jesus said, “I am not sent (by the Father) but unto the lost sheep of the house (12 tribes) of Israel (meaning the Jews).”

After He had been crucified; buried then raised from the dead, then 40 days after taken into heaven, everything changed.  Jesus said to his disciples,

John 14:26, “The Comforter (Holy Spirit) whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things---.”

John 16:7, “It is expedient (advantageous) for you (the disciples) that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (Holy Spirit) will not come unto you.”

Now here’s the key to understanding why it’s so very important to know why “know, or knowest” a present tense word was used in this verse. Here’s what changed:

Jesus is speaking of things after he had been glorified of the Father. John 16:15, He said, “All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, the he (the Holy Spirit) shall take of mine (what now belongs to me,) and show it unto you.”

Jesus did not say “some things,” or except for this or that, he said “All things” and this would include the time of his return.

When Jesus spoke the above, he had not gone to the cross, neither had He been buried and raised from the grave; nor had the gospels and epistles been written; the Holy Spirit had not been sent; Paul hadn’t been set aside by the Lord to go to the Gentiles and many New Testament had to be written yet. Also the Temple had to be destroyed as prophesied, and for all end time students, the feet and toes of iron mixed with potter’s clay and also iron mixed with miry clay had to be fulfilled. Potter’s clay I feel speaks of the Holy Roman empire and the nations they ruled over, and miry clay speaks of Muhammad and the religion of Islam.     

The time of Jesus return, I believe, has been written and placed into the Scriptures, especially in Daniels prophesy and also laid out for us in Nebuchadnezzar’s image of a man Dan.2.

Only now, in this present generation can it be searched out and understood. Scripture speaks of “A generation (that) shall not pass (away), until all these things be fulfilled.” In order to pass away, it first had to come to pass, and today I believe they all have. 

Bible prophesy and history had to unfold their pages in order for this generation to be a witness to all the events spoken of, especially in Daniel, Ezekiel, Hosea, Matthew Revelation. 
Laspino3

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No man knows
« on: Wed Oct 11, 2017 - 16:53:44 »

Offline RB

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #1 on: Thu Oct 12, 2017 - 04:54:59 »
The time of Jesus return, I believe, has been written and placed into the Scriptures, especially in Daniels prophesy and also laid out for us in Nebuchadnezzar’s image of a man Dan.2.
While I would agree that the certain signs do indeed points to the nearness of Jesus' return, and that nearness that is within the timeline of the scriptures end time events, very well covers a period of a few hundred years~at two hundred plus years and up to four plus hundred. That is a wide period of time, for certain events to be fulfilled.
Quote from: LaSpino3
Nebuchadnezzar’s image of a man Dan.2
Is a starting point of end-time events, but so much more much be filled in
Quote from: LaSpino3
Only now, in this present generation can it be searched out and understood.
Not really, and not so fast with your reasoning. I have read Augustine's section of his City of God on Revelation twenty and his insight is so much to be admired by anyone who is an AMill idealist. I do agree that each living generation has the potential to have a little more light than the last, but that does not mean that they will, for there is a verse that tells me otherwise and it is this one:
Quote from: Jesus
Matthew 24:24~"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
The salvation in this scripture is strictly a practical salvation of true knowledge of the word of God, especially considering that Matthew 24 is speaking in a spiritual sense of wars, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes....and most of all, DECEPTIONS because of the multitudes of false prophets, that shall flood this world as it comes to its end. I would say that Pentecostalism, along with the others that were here ahead of them has done its work on deceiving Gog and Magog....the world of unbelievers.
Quote from: LaSpino3
Scripture speaks of “A generation (that) shall not pass (away), until all these things be fulfilled.” In order to pass away, it first had to come to pass, and today I believe they all have. 
Well now, the key is in what sense are we to understand "THIS generation"~to me, it is simple and the next man may believe the same as you obviously do. This generation is interpreted by the Scriptures for us to mean evil and wicked men that are the byproduct of false prophets. All Jesus was saying is that the wicked shall increase more and more and WILL BE here UNTIL his second and final coming. In other words, the world will NOT be converted but will get worse and worse deceiving and being deceived!
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 3:1-13~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."
Just as Jesus was saying in Matthew 24. But, it would take many posts to prove what "THIS" generation means according to it biblical use.
Quote from: LaSpino3
Bible prophesy and history had to unfold their pages in order for this generation to be a witness to all the events spoken of, especially in Daniel, Ezekiel, Hosea, Matthew Revelation. 
Again with due respect to you, you must FIRST interpret "this generation" correctly or, your house of cards will fall. Please, do not take this to being disrespectful to you, for either myself or you, or both are wrong and OUR house of cards will fall. But, I have confidence after giving this subject many years of consideration that my house is built on a solid foundation.
Quote from: LaSpino3
the feet and toes of iron mixed with potter’s clay and also iron mixed with miry clay had to be fulfilled. Potter’s clay I feel speaks of the Holy Roman empire and the nations they ruled over, and miry clay speaks of Muhammad and the religion of Islam.
Can you support this with scriptures? If you believe you can then please proceed forward.

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #1 on: Thu Oct 12, 2017 - 04:54:59 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 12, 2017 - 07:06:26 »
Hello RB: Thank you very much for your reply, and your questions. Let me tell you about myself first. I'm an old man 80, been there and done that. Haven't been on this site for years, as a matter of fact, I forgot about it completely.

For the past number of years ? been doing a great ----great deal of my own personal research on end time prophesy, and it's not over the internet, although I do get my ancient history dates and personalities through certain sites.  Never will I take any conclusion that has been drawn by even the (supposed) great minds of yesterday without checking them out completely. Also I have found that many of their conclusions are limited by the 4 wall's (denomination) they boxed themselves into. Those who lived hundreds of years ago, did not have the resources we have today. For me, every conclusion has to line up with scripture; or be set aside until it has been reasoned out. 

Some of the smartest people I have ever met, or read appear to lack blue collar common sense. We don't live in some narrative we live of broken Humpty Dumpty world, and when it concerns religion, all I can say is Wow! I will not argue with people concerning God’s word. I will take a subject and start from the beginning and build on that.
 
You asked me several questions concerning my article. You gave me the impression that you take what you understand seriously, and I sincerely hope you and a few others on this forum can discuss some of my finding in an honest Christian manner. Personally, I know we’re running out of time.

OK, here’s where I am with end time prophesy. Like building a house, one need’s a foundation that’s solid. I believe God has given man 6000 years to complete what he has to finish. We all know about Adam, the Woman, the serpent, and the curse put on each. Then we come to Noah, the flood, and shortly after to Abram. Abram was his earthly name, and Abraham his God given name.

I have used Bishop Ussher’s, John Lightfoot, Sir Isaac Newton’s and many others who agree with them, the chronology of the Bible. This is my base, and their conclusions, Oct.23 4004 B.C. this is when the equinox took place, and when I understand Adam was cast from the garden. This is also when God’s countdown began. Before that, time wasn’t necessary because Adam was to live forever in the garden. (common sense)
Secondly, every bit of end time prophesy has to touch Nebuchadnezzar's image of Dan 2, an image that covers a period of 2600 years from head to toe.And the gold, silver, bronze iron, potter's clay and miry clay have to had touched Israel, the Jews, and the from the legs of iron, Christian's.

Bishop Ussher lived in the 16th century and published a 1600 Page volume concerning the ages and generations of people who lived from Adam to Christ. From Christ forward we have to depend on prophesy and history books to check out the facts.
 
I believe the LORD has put in place a very specific timetable. Example, Jesus was born in 4 B.C. according to Ussher, Lightfoot Newton and other. This is exactly 4000 years from 4 B.C. The closest I have come nailing down Jesus birth is Oct.15 to the 30 4 B.C.

I will answer first your question on “what is a generation?” Because this is a very important question, I will put up a new post and call it “The generation.” Again, thanks for your reply, let’s try to make all our conversations productive and an adventure into God’s thinking. Let's set Matt.24 aside for awhile: I will also prepare my findings on the Iron and potters clay and iron and miry clay in a separate post.


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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 15:27:20 »
LaSpino3 -  You make a very simple, but a very critical point in emphasizing the word "knoweth" as being given in the PRESENT TENSE as Christ spoke those words.  It's true - at that time, even Christ Himself claimed not to know the day and the hour of His own return: a voluntary, temporary, self-imposed restraint on His own power of omniscience.  However, He did not stay ignorant of this date for very long, as you have brought out in your post. 

You posed the question for us to consider: "What would have to change in order for Jesus to get this information concerning His return, and then reveal it to us through His Holy Spirit?"

Again, a very simple point, but a very critical one.  Fortunately, there is a very, very simple answer in Revelation 1:1-3 to go with that question:

God the Father told Jesus His Son when He (Jesus) was to return to earth.  Jesus in turn took this information, and sent an angelic messenger with this information to John, who took down the record of this information, and then passed it down to His readers (i.e., the 7 churches that existed then in Asia). 

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (what was revealed to Him about the date and the particulars leading to His own coming) "which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM" (gave - past tense - because God who formerly was the only one who had known this day and hour - Mark 13:32 - had already told this date to His Son sometime before John wrote Revelation) "to shew unto His servants" (the 1st-century believers, including those of the 7 churches of Asia) "things which must shortly come to pass" (because it would concern that generation of 1st-century believers very soon) "and  He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the word of God and of all things that he saw." (John tells us here that he was also shown the events surrounding "the day and the hour" in his Revelation visions)  "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy" (those 1st-century believers who heard John's message passed to them when his letters were read in the 7 churches' hearing) "for THE TIME IS AT HAND" (present tense - the "day and the hour" were PRESENTLY NEAR back then for John's 1st-century believers).

You are indeed on target when you point out that the Spirit revealed to the disciples "ALL things" (including the day and hour of His return).  This "all things" may not have been knowledge acquired all at one time, since the Holy Spirit would "GUIDE them into all truth" in stages, as they were able to bear it (John 16:12-13).  This John 16 text speaks of the Holy Spirit "shewing them things to come".  This is exactly what John in the book of Revelation was doing: passing on the message of the "coming things" to his 1st-century readers.

However, LaSpino3, I have to part company with you on your "CLAY" interpretation.  Clay (either potter's or miry clay) has been a symbol of the Israelite people as a nation from Old Testament days.  I'm sure LaSpino3, with your studies you have noticed that Isaiah compared his people, "the tribes of the Lord's inheritance" (Is. 63:17) to CLAY in Isaiah 64:8.  "But now O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand."  Through Jeremiah, God expressed the same comparison in Jer. 18:6.  "...Behold, as the CLAY is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." 

Even from the days of Israel's founding as a nation under Moses' leadership, God instructed His people in making alters to Him out of EARTH (like the clay, earth demonstrates something from humble origins), or if it were out of stone, it needed to be of whole, uncut stones, without a polluting tool of man being used to shape them (Exodus 20:24-25).  This was similar to the symbolic picture of the stone in Daniel 2's image, cut out of the mountain without hands, which was meant to represent Christ.

With this identification of CLAY as the ISRAELITE NATION, Daniel's image shows us that the clay of Israel as a nation was mixed to some degree with the iron of the 4th kingdom, which I believe was the ancient Roman empire.  LaSpino3, what your interpretation of Daniel's image does not address is the length of time it takes for God's kingdom to grow AFTER the rock cut without hands has struck the clay and iron feet and broken the entire statue to dust.  The breakup of this statue CANNOT be occurring at the end of the world, because the rock which struck the image continues to slowly grow in size afterward OVER TIME until it FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH.  This represents the ever-increasing effects of evangelism by the Holy Spirit at work.  He is incrementally growing the number of believers in the whole earth over time, and has continued to do so, ever since God crushed the image back in AD 70 when He smashed all the physical, national distinctions that have no place under the New Covenant of the One New Man. 

This is a more optimistic outlook than to fatalistically presume that all things are decreed to go downhill with no progress at all in sight when Christ returns a final time.  In our own power, that would be an understandable result, but the Holy Spirit is not bound to such a defeated outcome.  It goes against the Holy Spirit's very nature.  Life, growth, and fruitfulness follow wherever the Spirit has been at work.  We can get so overwhelmed by the discouraging news we are fed on a daily basis that we forget the bigger picture.  We forget that the Holy Spirit is like the wind: it does its work unseen, in remote areas, in the most unexpected ways, and is beyond the power of men to stop or control it.  Our views of the progress of God's kingdom in this world are much too myopic most of the time.

LaSpino3, you mentioned also that you have spent some time studying Ussher's history from Adam to Christ, which he wrapped up with the year AD 70.  Ussher is also a favorite historian of mine, if for no other reason than the fact that he correctly identified the beginning year for the 70-week prophecy of Daniel: the one that ran from 454 BC through AD 37, with all the time markers fulfilled by then - and no gaps.   I'm guessing that you probably don't agree with Ussher's dates on this one point, though.  His identified date of AD 33 for the middle of the 70th week (the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, which is the First Resurrection) helped me with pinpointing the ending of the millennium of Revelation 20 in that same year (lasting from 968 / 967 BC - AD 33).  A literal one thousand years from beginning to end.

He also gave the date of October 4, in AD 66, when the armies of Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem; the sign of ARMIES SURROUNDING JERUSALEM that Christ told His disciples to watch for, in order to know when they were to flee from Jerusalem and Judea ("armies" being the way Christ identified the "abomination of desolation" in Luke 21:20). 

This October 4, AD 66 date Ussher gave also helps to identify the later date of Christ's second coming, which was 1335 days after that October 4 date in AD 66, falling exactly on the day of Pentecost in AD 70.  Daniel himself also shared in the blessing of the resurrection at the end of those 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-13). 

Granted, Ussher wasn't perfect on all his dates; he missed the target for the date when Solomon's temple foundation was laid, which was not 1012 BC, but 968 / 967 BC instead, according to a couple other reputable sources.  I also think his 4004 BC date for the beginning of creation is just slightly off.  It should be 3,967 BC, in order to have a complete 7,000 years of human history on this planet - start to finish - with the Revelation 20 millennium in the very center of history, having exactly 3 thousand years of human history before and after that Rev. 20 millennium.  The virtue of this paradigm is that it features Christ's resurrection date in AD 33 as the central point of focus - the hub of the wheel - that all other dates of prophetic significance revolve around.  A RESURRECTED CHRIST takes the preeminence in prophecy this way, a highly-exalted position that rightfully belongs to Him.  "...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)





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Re: No man knows
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 15:27:20 »
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Offline LaSpino3

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 18:48:23 »
3 Resurrections: Again thanks for your well thought out reply:

Concerning your comments: Lets begin with, "I have to part company with you on your "CLAY" interpretation.  Clay (either potter's or miry clay) has been a symbol of the Israelite people as a nation from Old Testament days.  I'm sure you have noticed that Isaiah compared his people, "the tribes of the Lord's inheritance" (Is. 63:17) to CLAY in Isaiah 64:8.  "But now O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." 

My thinking concerning Isa.64 is, as foolish and careless as Israel had been, and being hated and despised by their enemies, yet Jehovah remains their Father, He ready to mold the whole house of Israel (12 tribes) into a good vessel, (Ezekiel broken stick made whole again) all symbolic language. Israel is also referred to as broken branches, sheep etc.

If scripture has symbolized Israel as anything, it's the Fig tree.
 
Matt.24:32-34. "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putts forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

We find the fig tree putting forth leaves but no fruit. This parable of the end times can only be referring to the formation of the modern Jewish state of Israel in 1948. Jesus was saying that that event would be an important sign of the last days, and that the generation who saw it happen would not pass away before his coming would be fulfilled.

Jer.24, the prophet was shown two baskets of figs. "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty [or wicked, evil] figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad" (verse 2).

In this parable, the bad figs were those people of Judah who rebelled against the LORD and refused to go into captivity in Babylon, which the LORD had ordained for that time; while the good figs complied with the direction of the LORD and were saved.

When I approach Nebuchadnezzar's image, I always stay consistent in my interpretation. The whole of the image from head to the feet of iron and clay takes us to the day of the LORD’s return, and His 1000 Year reign set up. No-where in the whole of the image can we put Israel. The Lord is going to mold Israel into a vessel of use, not destroy them. The image consists of Gentile nations only, those who have come to power and have put on Israel more than what the Lord intended, and for that, they shall be destroyed.

“The stone (the Rock of our salvation Jesus Christ) that was cut out without hands (without beginning and without end) which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron (Rome), the clay (Catholic church and Islam) the brass (Greece), the silver (Persia), and the gold (Iraq) shall be broken to pieces together (all at one time), and become like the chaff of the summer threshing floors, and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them.”
Doesn’t sound like God’s end time plan for the Jews to me.

Now don't jump to conclusions. All Catholic's are not evil or fallen, but as long as they bow a knee to Idols ----we all know how the Lord feels about that first commandment. It's the same sin the Jews were guilty of.

The chest, having two arms = the Medes and Persians. The two legs represent the division of the Roman empire, Rome and Constantinople. The two feet represent the Holy Roman empire ruling from both Rome and Constantinople. But over time Islam would take one foot, Constantinople, renaming it Istanbul, and Rome to this day rules from Rome (Vatican).

3 resurrections, bare with me, I like the way you think. I have put a great deal of work into end time prophecy, and will soon draw all of my posts together, that will surprise many on this forum and on my personal web-site. Stay open minded, PLEASE!

Phil LaSpino


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Re: No man knows
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 13, 2017 - 18:48:23 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #5 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 01:09:49 »
LaSpino3  -  I have no problem recognizing other symbols as being associated with Israel as a nation: broken branches, lost sheep, etc., even the fig tree examples you gave.  But you have left out one very important fig tree example - the one in Mark 11:12,15, 20-21.  This was the fig tree that Christ noticed on the way to Jerusalem that had no fruit on it, but only leaves.  Christ cursed that fig tree, saying, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever."  The next day, His disciples saw the same fig tree again, "dried up from the roots", and "withered away".  This represents Israel as a nation which would end up reaching a point when it would no longer be a living tree, but would wither away. 

Prior to that final destruction phase for Israel under the Roman invasion, Isaiah 65:8 speaks of the nearer coming judgment for Israel at the hands of the Babylonians when God promised to "not destroy them all", but to leave a REMNANT among the nation that would be His servants.  As for those few of His people in Judah that had truly sought Him, God promised that they would eat, drink, rejoice, and sing for joy of heart. 

On the other hand, God tells His disobedient people that He would "number you to the sword" which would slaughter them.  The disobedient ones in the nation would hunger, thirst, be ashamed, and cry and howl for sorrow and vexation of spirit.  "And ye" (the disobedient evil ones of God's people) "shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen" (the chosen remnant of those in the nation who sought God), "FOR THE LORD GOD SHALL SLAY THEE AND CALL HIS SERVANTS BY ANOTHER NAME (both believing Jews and Gentiles as well).  This is a reality that has been in place ever since the establishment of the New Covenant - the creation of the One New Man - and the AD 70 destruction and shattering of the power of the holy people, as Daniel 12:7 describes the death of the nation of Israel as a people. 

Malachi 4:1 puts this destruction in terms of "leaving them neither root (genealogical ancestry) nor branch (successive generations).  "Ashes under your feet" in Malachi 4:3 is about as thorough a destruction as you can get for a nation.  This time there would be no recovery to life again for Israel after her "second death" in AD 70.   The Daniel 12:7 "shattering the power of the holy people" happened when the rock struck the feet of the iron and clay, as I have mentioned already (with the clay representing Israel, and the iron the Roman empire).

I am presuming, LaSpino3, that you are identifying the 1,000-year Rev. 20 Millennium with the time period AFTER the rock has struck and broken the statue, when the rock grows into a mountain that fills the earth, correct?  The problem with placing the Rev. 20 Millennium at that point on the calendar is that the Rev. 20 Millennium is supposed to come to an END at the First Resurrection, according to Rev. 20:5.  The First Resurrection took place when the Firstfruits arose from the grave; meaning Christ, the "Firstfruits", "Firstborn", "Firstbegotten from the dead".  That was in AD 33.  The Daniel 2 statue did not get broken into dust at the First Resurrection when Christ arose in AD 33.  It all depends on whether or not you recognize Christ's resurrection as the "First Resurrection".   If you don't, my interpretation won't make any sense to those who can't see that. 

Neither can the point when the statue is broken into dust be the time when the world comes to an end, because of the length of time it takes afterward when that rock is growing and filling the earth.  Yet it IS the point at which Christ, the rock, returns in judgment, as you have said (and I agree).  The only way this striking rock can truly be the occasion of Christ's second coming return, with a period of rock-growing history afterward, is for there to be yet another 3rd coming of Christ at the culmination of human history, AFTER the rock has had time to fill the earth. 

LaSpino3, you have mentioned that the metals-man image in Daniel 2 was supposed to be a representation of only GENTILE kingdoms.  That's very true: Israel was not supposed to unite itself with any of the Gentile kingdoms and their idolatrous ways.  Balaam's prophecy emphasized this separation and segregation of Israel as a nation in Numbers 23:9.  "...lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations".  God forbad intermarriage with other nations and inquiring after how the other nations served their gods.  This was to keep the genetic line stable for Christ to fulfill the prophecies that He would come from the tribe of Judah. 

Israel was even forbidden to take the gold or silver from the idols of other nations and use it themselves, because even the gold and silver was considered an abomination in God's eyes (Deut. 7:25), as Achan and his family found out to their grief.  Yet, knowing how God was opposed to inter-relations with other nations, Israel did eventually mix itself with the 4th Roman kingdom of iron.  This union became forced on the Jewish people by Herod the Idumean who married a Hasmonean princess.  Herod managed to convince the Roman Senate of his loyalty to Rome - enough to give him the kingdom of Judea in exchange for his faithful allegiance - and tribute money exacted from the Jewish people.  Whether the Jewish citizens agreed with it or not, Herod and the Jewish leadership under Annas the high priest prostituted themselves by their alignment with the Romans' authority.

By currying favor with the Roman authorities, Israel's leadership forced the submission of their own people to Roman governance in order to maintain their wealthy status and power.  This was when the odd mixture of Israelite "clay" merged with the "iron", but never truly mixed with it.  Zealot activity was constantly bubbling up in revolt to this arranged union with Rome, as was very evident in Christ's days.  Can we say "Barabbas"?

All those such as the priesthood who shared in trying to preserve Israel's "place and nation", as Caiaphas phrased it, were putting their confidence in the physical kingdom of Rome for their prosperity.  The result was that the "clay" ended up being crushed along with the rest of the statue's metal elements.  But the Zealot's rebellious activities were also equally doomed to failure from the start, since they, too, were putting all their faith in the power of a physical kingdom, when God's kingdom under the New Covenant was based instead on Christ as the foundation of a "SPIRITUAL HOUSE".

The references you bring up, LaSpino3, such as the vessel of the Jews being molded into another good vessel, and Ezekiel's broken sticks becoming one, are all describing post-exilic conditions in Israel and Jerusalem under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel, with the restored high priesthood of Joshua, son of Josedech.  A revival did spring up in the nation in those days, along with their repentance and separation from their forbidden foreign wives, with the people weeping for these offenses (Ezra 10:1).  God promised in Haggai 2:4-5 that His Spirit would remain among them as they rebuilt the temple, which structure He promised to "take pleasure in" (Haggai 1:8).  At this point in Israel's history, they were "fearing before the Lord" (Haggai 1:12), and God was "stirring up the spirit...of all the remnant of the people" (Haggai 1:14).

Their labors were very necessary, in order to provide the setting for the future arrival of their Messiah on the scene.  But once Christ had arrived and fulfilled all the prophecies regarding Himself, the Jews who had rejected Him and crucified their own Savior had to be judged for that rejection of Him.  Those who did not "fall on this rock" of Christ in broken repentance had the alternate fate of that same rock falling on them instead and "grinding them to powder" (Matt. 21:44).  God at present is not devoted to preserving or reinstating the ethnic nation of Israel, but instead, He is passionately devoted to preserving a family of sons and daughters of God (the true "Israel of God"), regardless of their national identity.

Israel as a nation in ancient times served the purpose of providing a microcosm of God's salvation for us - proof that God had the prerogative of choosing a people for Himself from among the rest of the nations.  He chose the smallest, most stubborn, most despised group, and lavished His care on them.  The honor and glory goes to The One doing the selection, and not to any imagined exclusive status of the ones selected.  God's faithfulness to the ethnic nation of Israel even in her disobedient state says more about God's character than the essential worthiness of ethnic Israel itself.  God kept every promise given to Israel - even His promise to destroy them in the "latter days' of the Old Covenant if they did not hearken to His commands.  The "song of Moses" found in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 is nothing less than a prediction that ethnic Israel will inevitably apostatize from her God.  It lists the resulting punishments they would experience before God would finally destroy them at their "latter end" (Deut. 32:29) when their "power was gone" (Deut. 32:36 cp Dan. 12:7).

Consequently, I can't agree that the Lord will yet mold Israel the nation into a vessel of use in the future, since He destroyed them for the final time as a nation before Him back in AD 70.  Yes, they were granted a period of reviving back in the post-exilic days, but as we know, eventually by the time Christ came on the scene, they had been corrupted once again.  Their rejection of Christ as their prophesied Messiah broke their covenant status, and since then, God has revealed His mystery of the "One New Man" creation, which has swept away all ethnic distinctions that had segregated Jew and Gentile before then.  There is no plan in God's word for re-establishing those separate categories once more.  That would be regression, not advancement of God's kingdom.

   

   

Offline RB

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #6 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 04:02:37 »
Israel as a nation in ancient times served the purpose of providing a microcosm of God's salvation for us - proof that God had the prerogative of choosing a people for Himself from among the rest of the nations.  He chose the smallest, most stubborn, most despised group, and lavished His care on them.  The honor and glory goes to The One doing the selection, and not to any imagined exclusive status of the ones selected.  God's faithfulness to the ethnic nation of Israel even in her disobedient state says more about God's character than the essential worthiness of ethnic Israel itself.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
Consequently, I can't agree that the Lord will yet mold Israel the nation into a vessel of use in the future,
Agreed~While I do admired your details and your overall truth that you were driving toward to present to Phil~but I do disagree with some of your other points as you know~but posting this to let you know that I DO read and consider honestly what you do see and consider to be the truth, which I feel we owe to all we hear, and to ourselves, to test our own doctrine with other spirits speaking, to make sure we have not be deceived ourselves, which is NOT above any man in the flesh. 
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 04:05:46 by RB »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #7 on: Sun Oct 15, 2017 - 05:59:46 »
3 Resurrections: You wrote, "I can't agree that the Lord will yet mold Israel the nation into a vessel of use in the future."

With all due respect, I would like to comment on your comment because it seems to be the attitude of a very, very large majority of people in the Christian community. Let me put it this way. (Now don't take this personal, I'm generalizing.)  Say I was going to collage to learn history. Let's say I have my own thoughts about particular aspects of that period in history; and let's say this particular class concerned the history of ancient Babylon.

Now concerning this particular class, I can approach it in several ways.
1. Listen to what the professor has to say; and when he had concluded his teaching on the subject, ask him questions concerning what he had taught. Or,

2. Go into his class, listen to him, and every time I disagree with him, interrupt him, never giving him the opportunity to draw his conclusions. Or,

3. Be totally disruptive. Or,

4. Don't go to class because I think I'm the brightest light bulb on the subject, and have nothing to learn.

Have you ever sat down with someone an tried to have a conversation with them? And, every 30 seconds you get interrupted by the phone they had set down on the table? That's exactly how some of these forums are. No one listens, everyone interrupts, and nobody asks questions. I learned many years ago, if a person doesn’t ask questions, their usually not interested in what you’re saying. So, I ask, isn't there even the remotest possibility that maybe, just maybe, none of us has all the answers, and we all have something to learn?

I was under the impression this forum concerned the end times. It appears Christian’s can't even agree on "What does end times mean?" Some claim time doesn't exist, ????????? Some claim 1 thousand years doesn’t mean 1 thousand years. Some say the end times ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D, or with the Maccabees. My question, “what do the Maccabees or Temple  have to do with end time prophesy?” All they are, were small incidents concerning the whole. Who were the Maccabees, they were a family of Jews who rebelled against their oppressors. That ended in 63 B.C. Is that what is supposed to be considered "the End of time, or the age? Of course it isn't!

And then there are those who claim, “God is finished with the Jews.” What there inferring is, “God cannot keep, or won’t keep his many, many promises and covenants made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David etc.

My response, Nonsense! My thinking, in order to have an end time, there needs to be a beginning to that end. All of us need to establish their foundation before they can build on it. The trouble is, many try to put the roof on the house  before they lay the slab. Anyway, thanks for all of your time.
Phil

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #8 on: Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 07:32:39 »

.... two questions were Matt.24:3, “What shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world (age).” Jesus replied,

Mark 13:32, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The verb, Know or knoweth, is used in the present tense, meaning a thing acquainted with. The following comes from Princeton’s Word Net; Wiktionary; and Freebase.                                                                                           

Present tense is the form of language used to refer to an event, or occurrence which is happening now (at the present time), or a thing or knowledge that currently exists.

Also, the present tense is a grammatical tense whose principal function is to locate a situation or event in, or at the present time.

Because the word know was used in the present tense, Jesus spoke concerning his understanding at that present time, but surely not of any future time.
Laspino3

Your very erudite interpretation is based upon a false premise and incorrect information.   

Jesus was speaking to Jews not gentiles.   The scripture He often quoted was written in Hebrew, not English.   Therefore your lengthy explanations, dependent upon English translations, is incorrect.   Your assumptions are based upon modern gentile culture not the Jewish culture of Jesus' time.   If anyone wants an accurate interpretation of what Jesus said and meant, one must have a complete understanding of the frame of reference of the time.   For what its worth, I will try to elucidate on the passage more clearly.

To this day there is a great deal of discussion about the Year of Jubilee.   Among gentile Christians there is almost no observation or understanding of Jewish holidays, especially the high holy days.  In addition, prophetic discussion often quotes Daniel, Ezekiel and some of the minor prophets.   None search the book of Leviticus - the Law which requires certain acts at certain times.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion of the 613 laws of the Torah or quotes of the prophets from the Tanakh, I'll try to focus the issue on the Year of Jubilee. 

Torah tells us Moses led the children of Israel out of bondage by the grace of God and by divine judgments upon Egypt.  Following their deliverance from Egypt, the Hebrews were led to the base of Mt. Sinai, where the Lord gave His laws and ordinances for living righteous lives before Him.  Giving of the Law happened twice, but to keep this brief I cannot get into the reasons why or what it means to us today.  On his second trip up to meet the Lord on Mt. Sinai, Moses was given detailed descriptions of several matters.   One of them was the Year of Jubilee.

The Year of Jubilee was to be observed every 50 years, therefore the first observance of that time was not to be held until the Hebrew leadership passed to Joshua in eretz Israel (land of Israel - as opposed to people of Israel).  Unfortunately, the Hebrews never kept God's Law with regard to the ordinances of the Year of Jubilee.   Its' too financially disruptive so they didn't keep it.   Some scholars suggest that one of the reasons the Jews were captured and taken to Babylon was the fact they never kept the Jubilee Year.   Be that as it may, the actual calculation of the dates of observation were forgotten.

To this day no one, including the most adept of Jewish scholars, has ever been able to accurately calculate the actual day and hour of the commencement and end of the Year of Jubilee.   This was true long before Jesus walked the earth.   By the time the question of the post above was asked, even Jesus didn't know the calculation.   Therefore we see that the question as well as its answer is a matter of calculation rather than prophetic interpretation.    We simply do not know.

Add to this lack of knowledge the fact that modern pseudo-prophets often use the Gregorian calendar, a solar calendar adopted in October of 1582, to calculate their assumptions.   The Muslim calendar, as well as all ancient methods of tracking the seasons, is a lunar calendar.  One year equals one orbit of the moon - a month on the Gregorian calendar.   Do you see the difference here?   Good.   It gets better.   The Hebrew calendar is a modified lunar-solar calendar which has been in use since ancient times.   The Jewish New Year, called Rosh Hashanah, usually begins in the latter part of September, not on January 1st as on the Gregorian calendar.  Things get complicated when you don't know what day it is.

Mark 13:32 quotes Jesus when he reminds his questioners that no man knows the day or the hour - because its linked to a time and a season which has been forgotten.  You can't figure the day or the hour of a future event if you don't know the beginning of the point of calculation.   Its really that simple.

One thing is certain, however,  We ARE in the season of last things and times.   The Bible cautions that repentance is necessary to avoid the wrath of God.   The time to repent is NOW.   

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...       

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: No man knows
« Reply #9 on: Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 11:28:41 »
Choir Loft: You may be underestimation what I know and don't know. I never assume anything, and I never express my personal opinions as doctrinal statements. I am extremely careful with the Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek translation of words, very careful! I have in my personal library Dictionaries and Lexicons that pre-date 1830 in both Hebrew, Greek, and also own a first edition of Daniel Webster's dictionary, one that, unlike these published today, quote Biblical verses to get the meaning of words across. 

The verse under discussion is in the N.T., therefore from Greek to English, correct? There is an art to translating words from language to languages, correct? I say this particular word "knoweth" in this verse, is used in the present tense only, meaning, when Jesus spoke these words to his 3 disciples, this information was not necessary for the work he had come to accomplish in his 33 1/2 years on earth. But, after he had been raised from the grave, "ALL that the Father had" now belonged to the LORD; not some of, not except for this or that, All things, and this has to include opening up the mysteries that had been hid in God since the beginning of time to us.

I wrote the following some 25 years ago, and to cut to the chase, I trust the 47 men who translated the K.J.B. And, in my study of the Bible, I have never, ever found (1) error in their work. Also you should study the art of Lexicography, it's pretty interesting.

You don't have to read the following, but it is interesting.

The Greek N.T. contains examples of all the dialects of the Greek language. Aeolic, is a group of dialects of ancient Greek, spoken by the Aeolians. Boeotic, is an Aeolic dialect of ancient Greek, used by the Boeotians. Doric, is a dialect of ancient Greek spoken in southern and eastern Peloponnesus, the Isthmus of Corinth and some of the southern most Aegean islands. 4. Ionic. This was a dialect of ancient Greek used in Ionia. Attic, or Athenian, this was a dialect of ancient Greek that was originally used in Attica and became the literary language of the entire Greek speaking world.


As I said earlier, I use the K.J.B. as my final research interpretation. Now concerning the translators of the K.J.B. there were 47 of them. All were pre-eminently distinguished for their devotedness to the Scriptures, and noted for their profound learning in the ORIGINAL languages of the sacred writings.

The work of translation was divided among them into six classed. Ten at Westminster University; they were to translate from the Pentateuch to the end of the second book of Kings.

Eight assembled at Cambridge University, they were to finish the rest of the Historical Books and the Hagiography. Seven men were sent to Oxford university, and were to undertake the 4 greater prophets, with the Lamentations of Jeremiah, and the twelve minor prophets, with Lamentations of Jeremiah, and the 12 minor prophets.

The four Gospels, the acts of the Apostles, and the Apocalypse, were assigned to another group of eight, also at Oxford. The epistles of Paul, together with the remaining canonical epistles, were allotted to seven others at Westminster. The last company was sent to Cambridge, and was to translate the apocryphal books, including the prayer of Manasseh.

Here are the final instructions given to these men.

1. The ordinary Bible read in the church commonly called the Bishops' Bible, was to be followed and as little altered as the original will permit.

2. The names of the prophets and the holy writers, with the other names in the text, to be retained as near as may be according as they are commonly used.

3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, as the word church not to be translated congregation.

4. When any word had divers signification, that to be kept, which had been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and analogy of faith.

5. The division of the chapters to be altered either not at all, or as little as may be, if necessity so require.

6. No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words which cannot without some circumlocation, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the text.

7. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down, as shall serve for the fit references of one scripture to another.

8. Every particular man of each company to take the same chapter or chapters; and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinks good, all are then to meet together, to confer what they have done, and agree for their part what shall stand.

9. As any one company hath dispatched any one book in this manner, they shall sent it to the rest, to be considered of seriously and judiciously; for his majesty (the king) is very careful in this point.

10. If any company, upon the review of the book so sent, shall doubt or differ upon any places, to send them word thereof, to note the places, and therewithal to send their reasons; to which if they consent not, the difference to be compounded at the general meeting, which is to be of the chief persons of each company, at the end of the work.

11. When any place of special obscurity is doubted of, letters to be directed by authority, to send to any learned in the land for his judgment in such a place.

12. Letters to be sent from every bishop to the rest of his clergy, admonishing them of this translation in hand, and to move and change as many as, being skilful in the tongues (languages) have taken pains it that kind, to send their particular observation to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, according as it was directed before in the king's letter to the Archbishop.

13. The directors in each company to be the Deans of Westminster, and Chester for Westminster, and the King's Professors in Hebrew and Greek in the two universities.

14. These translations to be used, when they agree better with the text than the Bishop's Bible, viz. Tyndals, Coverdale's Matthew's, Whitchurch's and Geneva.

15. Besides the said directors before mentioned, three or four of the most ancient and grave divines in either of the universities not employed in translating, to be assigned by the Vice-Chancellor, upon conference with the rest of the heads, to be overseers of the translation, as well Hebrew as Greek, for the better observation of the 4th rules above specified. ‘

According to these regulations, each book passed the scrutiny of all the translators successively. In the first instance, each individual translated every book, which was allotted to his division. Secondly, the readings to be adopted were agreed upon by the whole of the company assembled together, at which meeting each translator must have solely occupied by his own version. The book, thus finished, was sent to each of the other companies to again examined; and at these meetings it probably was.

As Selden informs us, the, "One read the translation, the rest holding in their hands some Bible, either of the learned tongues, or French, Spanish, Italian, etc. If they found any fault, they spoke; if not, he read on." Further, the translators were empowered to call to their assistance any learned men, whose studies enabled them to be serviceable, when an urgent occasion of difficulty presented itself. The translation was commenced in the spring of 1607, and the completion of it occupied almost three years.

When time had expired 3 copies of the whole Bible, thus translated and revised, were sent to London, one from Oxford, one from Cambridge, and the third from Westminster. Here a committee of six, two being deputed (delegated) by the companies at Oxford, two by those at Cambridge, and two by those at Westminster, reviewed and polished the whole work: which was finally revised by Dr. Smith (Bishop of Winchester,) and by Dr. Bilson, who wrote the preface. This translation of the Bible was published in folio in 1611."

Now with all that said, I have the utmost confidence in the work these men accomplished, therefore I believe and understand the K.J.B. is absolutely correct in its interpretation. I posted the results of the word "know or knoweth.' and how it is to be use in this particular verse. It means exactly what I said it means.




 

     
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