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Offline glen

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pre bowls rapture
« on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 08:18:43 »
ok this is just my thoughts, i'm not making assertions here just my own understanding

1 thess 4
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger...

 rev 11. But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.

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pre bowls rapture
« on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 08:18:43 »

larry2

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 09:13:53 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 09:13:53 »

k-pappy

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 09:37:09 »
I believe the bowls come after the trumpets and that the rapture will occur at the last trumpet:

Jesus tells us, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matt 24:30-31)

Paul tells us, "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thess 4:13-17)

So we know there is going to be a shout and a trumpet, but how does that help us? Let's look what Paul tells the Corinthians:

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor. 15:50-52)

So we know now that the rapture will happen at the last trumpet. To learn more let's go to Revelation. In the book of Revelation, John tells us about 7 seal judgments. The Lamb (Jesus) breaks seven seals on a scroll (Rev 6). When the seventh seal is broken, seven angels are given seven trumpets (Rev 8:1-2). Let's take a look at what happens when the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-18):

"The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
   "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
       and he will reign for ever and ever." And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
   "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
       the One who is and who was,
   because you have taken your great power
       and have begun to reign.
   The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
   The time has come for judging the dead,
       and for rewarding your servants the prophets
   and your saints and those who reverence your name
,
       both small and great--
   and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

The last trumpet marks a transition. From this passage, we can see a few things:
The triumph of Christ's Kingdom is announced
God's people will be rewarded
God's enemies will be destroyed

The triumph of Christ's Kingdom is announced. This is the point where He is going to reclaim His people. While the passage does not say that specifically, we can see more detail about numbers 2 and 3 where John talks about a 'harvest' in chapter 14:

"I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." (v14-16)

"Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia." (v 17-20)

Clearly Jesus and His angels are claiming His people and preparing the Earth for God's Wrath. This is important for two reasons: 1) It matches what was sung about at the Last Trumpet and 2) It shows God is redeeming His people before He pours His wrath upon the Earth.

Stucky

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:12:49 »
You all confused me.  I thought this was a thread about the college and NFL bowl games coming after the rapture.  Scared me.

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:12:49 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:25:45 »
You all confused me.  I thought this was a thread about the college and NFL bowl games coming after the rapture.  Scared me.

So did I.  But at least if it happened before the BCS game between Alabam and Texas we wouldn't have to hear all them Alabamans and their shenanigans.

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:25:45 »



Offline p-nut

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #5 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:34:12 »
Glen
Quote
if you look at the more literal translations you will see that the trumpets are given to the angels but are not described as "his" trumpet
the seventh trumpet declares the kingdom of our lord and of his christ (trumpet call of god)

There seems to be a contradiction here, you say the 7 trumpets are not described as “his

Stucky

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #6 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 14:39:36 »
You all confused me.  I thought this was a thread about the college and NFL bowl games coming after the rapture.  Scared me.

So did I.  But at least if it happened before the BCS game between Alabam and Texas we wouldn't have to hear all them Alabamans and their shenanigans.

Shucks, everbody knows them Texans can't win a game against a REAL team like Alabamy.   ::smile::

Stucky

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #7 on: Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 15:38:13 »
You all confused me.  I thought this was a thread about the college and NFL bowl games coming after the rapture.  Scared me.

So did I.  But at least if it happened before the BCS game between Alabam and Texas we wouldn't have to hear all them Alabamans and their shenanigans.

Offline glen

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #8 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 00:10:49 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.


hi larry
i'm considering the possibility that the 1260 days and the 42 months are actually the same period of time(almost)
the reason why the beasts reign is called 42 months, is because in daniel we read of 1290 days - which is obviously different to 1260
the 42 month trampling of jerusalem i think could be covering the same time as the 1260 day witnesses, although starting 30 days previously (1290)
if jerusalem is not yet invaded while the 2 witnesse are prophesying, then why do they need such powerful protection?
i believe they may appear when the trampling of jerusalem starts, and this is why they will need such protective powers (fire)


Offline glen

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #9 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 00:15:46 »
Glen
Quote
if you look at the more literal translations you will see that the trumpets are given to the angels but are not described as "his" trumpet
the seventh trumpet declares the kingdom of our lord and of his christ (trumpet call of god)

There seems to be a contradiction here, you say the 7 trumpets are not described as “his

larry2

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #10 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 01:56:39 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.



hi larry, i'm considering the possibility that the 1260 days and the 42 months are actually the same period of time(almost)
the reason why the beasts reign is called 42 months, is because in daniel we read of 1290 days - which is obviously different to 1260
the 42 month trampling of jerusalem i think could be covering the same time as the 1260 day witnesses, although starting 30 days previously (1290)
if jerusalem is not yet invaded while the 2 witnesse are prophesying, then why do they need such powerful protection?
i believe they may appear when the trampling of jerusalem starts, and this is why they will need such protective powers (fire)



Hi Brother glen, to me the 1290 days are just that. They start 30 days prior to the seven years of tribulation when the antichrist takes away the daily sacrifice according to Daniel 12:11, but then we read in Daniel 9:27 that the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel which he breaks in the middle of the week (1260 days from being signed) and he stops all religious service.

If you're interested in these things you might look at a study of prophesy I posted in parts. I posted it so you can go to the Chapter, use Ctrl F and search for Daniel 12:11 for instance. I hope they are of a help to you. Please do notice that some chapters have more than one part; for instance, Chapter Twelve is two parts, part two being on the first reply.

Prophesies of Daniel Links

Chapter 1 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophecies-of-daniel-chapter-one/

Chapter 2 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophecies-of-daniel-chapter-two/

Chapter  3 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-three/

Chapter 4 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-four/

Chapter 5 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-five/

Chapter 6 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-six/

Chapter 7 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-seven/

Chapter 8 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-eight/

Chapter 9 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-nine/

Chapter 10 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-ten/

Chapter 11 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-eleven/

Chapter 12 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-twelve/
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 16:50:46 by larry2 »

son of God

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #11 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 14:50:16 »
If He came before the super bowl, it sure would be nice.

Stucky

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #12 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 14:57:04 »
If He came before the super bowl, it sure would be nice.

Who's playing in the Toilet Bowl this year?

son of God

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #13 on: Sat Dec 26, 2009 - 21:25:49 »
If He came before the super bowl, it sure would be nice.

Who's playing in the Toilet Bowl this year?
The Browns!  (Cleveland.)

Offline glen

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #14 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 06:24:23 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.


hi larry
i'm considering the possibility that the 1260 days and the 42 months are actually the same period of time(almost)
the reason why the beasts reign is called 42 months, is because in daniel we read of 1290 days - which is obviously different to 1260
the 42 month trampling of jerusalem i think could be covering the same time as the 1260 day witnesses, although starting 30 days previously (1290)
if jerusalem is not yet invaded while the 2 witnesse are prophesying, then why do they need such powerful protection?
i believe they may appear when the trampling of jerusalem starts, and this is why they will need such protective powers (fire)



this is just an angle i'm looking at
i'm not yet certain of whether there are 2 halves of a tribulation or not

Offline glen

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #15 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 06:31:24 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.


i'll have to get back to you on that

Offline glen

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 06:34:12 »

Hi glen, Just something to think about, the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days or the full first half of the tribulation according to Revelation 11:3. Since we do not see them with Christ until Revelation 14:1 and the tribulation has already begun, are you thinking they were raised to be with Christ earlier? And even then they were not even sealed until Revelation 7:4 during the tribulation.

My thoughts.



hi larry, i'm considering the possibility that the 1260 days and the 42 months are actually the same period of time(almost)
the reason why the beasts reign is called 42 months, is because in daniel we read of 1290 days - which is obviously different to 1260
the 42 month trampling of jerusalem i think could be covering the same time as the 1260 day witnesses, although starting 30 days previously (1290)
if jerusalem is not yet invaded while the 2 witnesse are prophesying, then why do they need such powerful protection?
i believe they may appear when the trampling of jerusalem starts, and this is why they will need such protective powers (fire)



Hi Brother glen, to me the 1290 days are just that. They start 30 days prior to the seven years of tribulation when the antichrist takes away the daily sacrifice according to Daniel 12:11, but then we read in Daniel 9:27 that the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel which he breaks in the middle of the week (1260 days from being signed) and he stops all religious service.

If you're interested in these things you might look at a study of prophesy I posted in parts. I posted it so you can go to the Chapter, use Ctrl F and search for Daniel 12:11 for instance. I hope they are of a help to you. Please do notice that some chapters have more than one part; for instance, Chapter Twelve is two parts, part two being on the first reply.

Prophesies of Daniel Links

Chapter 1 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophecies-of-daniel-chapter-one/

Chapter 2 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophecies-of-daniel-chapter-two/

Chapter  3 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-three/

Chapter 4 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-four/

Chapter 5 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-five/

Chapter 6 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-six/

Chapter 7 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-seven/

Chapter 8 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-eight/

Chapter 9 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-nine/

Chapter 10 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-ten/

Chapter 11 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-eleven/

Chapter 12 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/prophesies-of-daniel-chapter-twelve/



there could be 2 halves of a trib
the only thing is which i'm really certain of is that the "week" in daniel is history (i've already done a few posts about that on other threads), and to do with the messiah

larry2

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Re: pre bowls rapture
« Reply #17 on: Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 07:55:18 »

There could be 2 halves of a trib
the only thing is which i'm really certain of is that the "week" in daniel is history (i've already done a few posts about that on other threads), and to do with the messiah


I agree that the seventy weeks of Daniel are complete, but then we come to Daniel 9:27 which would be a last week of Daniel. He (The prince that destroyed the city in Daniel 9:26 probably in 70 AD) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (Seven years) and in the midst of the week shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to end. The midst of the week is that 1260 days or three and one half years into the tribulation. Many believe Christ is that prince; not so, Jesus is not going to break a covenant, nor cause the overspreading of abominations.

My thoughts.

 

     
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