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Offline larry2

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Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 01:22:14 »
Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?

Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . . .




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Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 01:22:14 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #1 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 07:58:27 »
Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?

I do not believe so. John 5:28-29, all resurrected and entering their eternal destinations at the same time. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24, all resurrected then comes the end. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, only the effects of the Second Coming of Christ upon the saved is mentioned because Paul is seeking to comfort those still alive who are concerned about them that have fallen asleep in Christ.

That the unsaved are at the same time affected by Christ's coming is not a part of that particular message of comfort.

Quote
Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

With regard to predicted events that are future to the time of its writing, I do not believe so. I believe Revelation is using figurative language to speak of near to be fulfilled events in relation to the lifetime of those members of the seven churches.

The only things that I understand to be future to us is the Second Coming, final judgment of all, and each entering into his and her final destination.

Quote
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . . .[/size]

That's the way to read Revelation. ::cool::

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #1 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 07:58:27 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 08:21:17 »
That's the way to read Revelation.
A typical way to read Revelation is to read it as a consecutive account from beginning to end as one account of the future.  Actually, I think it is not a consecutive account but rather a series of several cyclical segments (after the introduction in chs. 1–3) forming a series of parallel descriptions relevant to the whole of Christian history and the end time.

The key or basic giveaway is the fact that at several places in the book, there are more or less clear references to the same end-time events: the second coming, the final judgment, the eternal states. These events appear not just at the end of the book, but in several other chapters along the way. For example, beginning in 6:1 the opening of the seven seals seems clearly to be a perspective on the church age, but the sixth seal seems to bring it to a climax. Revelation 6:17 declares that “the great day of their wrath has come,” in an unmistakable reference to the second coming. This is closely followed by a description of God’s people who have already been through a “great tribulation” (7:14) and who are described as being in the same heaven (7:15-17) that is pictured in chapters 21–22. This is followed by the opening of the seventh seal, which clearly brings “a break in the action,” as John is given a half-hour rest period until the next unit begins.

Since the end of chapter 7 deals with the final state of heaven, the set of revelations triggered by the blowing of the seven trumpets (chs. 8–11) must take us back into the church age once more. That this unit will also conclude with a perspective on the second coming is seen in the forewarning in 10:7, that the end will happen when the seventh angel sounds: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished.” Then in 11:15 when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, the end does in fact come: “Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged” (11:18). That the end of chapter 11 brings us to the end of history is confirmed by the beginning of chapter 12, which without doubt refers to the first coming of the Messiah and thus begins a new cycle.

We find the next clear reference to the end time in 14:7, “The hour of His judgment has come.” Then in 14:15 comes the message, “The hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe” (see Matt 13:39). The imagery of 14:19-20 can refer to nothing less than hell itself. This means that a new parallel unit begins in chapter 15. But where is the next clear reference to the end time and judgment? Certainly 20:11-15 (the great white throne judgment) refers to the end, and is followed by a detailed description of the final state of the redeemed (chs. 21, 22).

But is there any other end-time reference reference before this? This is a crucial point for the question of the millennium, for if chapters 15–22 form a single unit, then even in the cyclical view of Revelation, the millennium chapter would follow chronologically upon chapter 19 and would occur near the end and thus would be consistent with a premillennial view of the millennium. However, it is best to see chapter 19 as forming the end of the fourth cycle of Revelation, and chapter 20 as beginning the fifth and last cycle.

The “great supper of God” (19:17) is an image of hell itself, which is shown by the reference to “the wine press of the fierce wrath of God” in 19:15, which is parallel to the reference to hell in 14:19-20. This means that chapter 20—the millennium chapter—begins a new cycle, and thus goes back to encompass the church age.

I have taken the above description from Cottrell's "The Faith Once For All".  But this same cyclical presentation of Revelation can be found elsewhere and is typical of an Amillennial view of the end times which I believe is the correct view.
« Last Edit: Mon May 07, 2018 - 08:26:32 by 4WD »

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 08:26:38 »
Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?

Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . . .


Interesting topic.

Are there going to be different raptures?

That depends on what you actually are calling "a rapture".

Many here do not believe in the term rapture. Period.

Those who do look upon things as pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib. And I suppose an arguement could be made for each one as being true in a progressive way....
such as there may be some taken pre-trib, while others have to continue God's work to the middle or end before they are taken out of the mix.

But I am not going to go into that idea because , as yet, I do not have enough supportive info.

If you mean , though, that there will be 2 or 3 or even 10 raptures depending on your walk and growth in your Christian life.... NO, I do not believe so.

Reason: Mathew 24:30-31

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And

Rev 11:12

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

These indicators of what we have come to call the rapture indicate only once.

AND... Mathew 24: verse 29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then 1st Thes. 4: 16-17 says


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly indicates that this gathering of the elect is not going to happen PRE-TRIB, and most likely will be post Trib, unless God has an unwritten reason to want
those in the ground to be vacated mid Trib.

AS to........Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

Absolutely.

It is here , at the end of the book .... IT IS WRITTEN

Rev 22: 18-19

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As to ... which must shortly come to pass.

I ask you if in the scheme of eternity past and future if a few thousand years, give or take, you can  really argue that shortly does not mean what it says.

All things relevant ....even in the scope of the diehard evolutionist theories of earth being billions and trillions of years old.... a couple of handfuls of thousands of years of life as we know it, having been recorded IS but a very short time.

True.... in the age of the microwave, instant messaging, and travel at the speed of light/sound... things may seem to have dragged since the Bible actually was written and the selections of books put in place.... but shortly come to pass well could happen before the next time I even turn on my computer and am waiting, and waiting and waiting for it to boot up  ::destroyingcomputer::


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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 08:26:38 »

Offline larry2

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 09:00:21 »

Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?


I do not believe so. John 5:28-29, all resurrected and entering their eternal destinations at the same time. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24, all resurrected then comes the end. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, only the effects of the Second Coming of Christ upon the saved is mentioned because Paul is seeking to comfort those still alive who are concerned about them that have fallen asleep in Christ.

That the unsaved are at the same time affected by Christ's coming is not a part of that particular message of comfort.

Good morning, and thanks for your reply. Would you possibly consider those scriptures to be referring to the last trump we read of in 1Co 15:52? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is there the possibility of previous trumps concerning our being caught up unto our Savior?
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order (troop or band): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (For instance, there are some appearing before God’s throne that come out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:13-14.)



Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?



With regard to predicted events that are future to the time of its writing, I do not believe so. I believe Revelation is using figurative language to speak of near to be fulfilled events in relation to the lifetime of those members of the seven churches.

The only things that I understand to be future to us is the Second Coming, final judgment of all, and each entering into his and her final destination.

Do you see any possibility in our being associated with Jesus as 1Cor 15:24 Jesus puts puts down all rule and all authority and power. We see one group of 144,000 following the Lamb wherever He goes in Rev 14:3-4. Would that really be after the New Jerusalem is come down?


Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . . .


That's the way to read Revelation. ::cool::

My question would be: “When was the time of Revelation that John was shown that soon coming? In other words, did he receive that message back in ninety-something AD, or sometime future to us?


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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 09:00:21 »



Offline larry2

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 15:35:36 »
Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?


Are there going to be different raptures?
That depends on what you actually are calling "a rapture".
Many here do not believe in the term rapture. Period.

The word Rapture comes from the Latin word “Rapio” saying “harpazo”meaning to be Caught up we find in 1 Thes 4:17.


Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?


Those who do look upon things as pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib. And I suppose an arguement could be made for each one as being true in a progressive way....
such as there may be some taken pre-trib, while others have to continue God's work to the middle or end before they are taken out of the mix.

If you mean , though, that there will be 2 or 3 or even 10 raptures depending on your walk and growth in your Christian life.... NO, I do not believe so.

Reason: Mathew 24:30-31

30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I like your thinking here, but I draw a different picture using the following. The scripture in Mt 24:29 designates the end of the tribulation:

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If we read Dan 7:2  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. The sea in scripture here represented the Gentile nations, and evil much akin to the future when God protects His elect.



Rev 11:12  “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

These indicators of what we have come to call the rapture indicate only once.

Here you are referring to the to the resurrection of the two witnesses which occurs just after the middle of the week of tribulation.


Then 1 Thes. 4: 16-17 says

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly indicates that this gathering of the elect is not going to happen PRE-TRIB, and most likely will be post Trib, unless God has an unwritten reason to want those in the ground to be vacated mid Trib.

AS to........Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

Absolutely.

As to ... which must shortly come to pass.

I ask you if in the scheme of eternity past and future if a few thousand years, give or take, you can really argue that shortly does not mean what it says.

I believe there will be a minimum of three raptures, or catching up of different portions of the Church, and John described them as the first group as being the 24 elders & the four beasts, or living ones in Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6. This was before the tribulation begins.

The second group is described as the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9, and then there are the third rank; those first fruits into God of Israel which are the 144,000. Rev 14:4.

Thanks for your input. 
::smile::

Offline soterion

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #6 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 21:50:23 »
Good morning, and thanks for your reply. Would you possibly consider those scriptures to be referring to the last trump we read of in 1Co 15:52? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is there the possibility of previous trumps concerning our being caught up unto our Savior?
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order (troop or band): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (For instance, there are some appearing before God’s throne that come out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:13-14.)


Do you see any possibility in our being associated with Jesus as 1Cor 15:24 Jesus puts puts down all rule and all authority and power. We see one group of 144,000 following the Lamb wherever He goes in Rev 14:3-4. Would that really be after the New Jerusalem is come down?

Well, since I already stated what I believe about Revelation, that should answer your questions about it here. Regarding John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:20-24, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 being tied in to 1 Corinthians 15:52, yes.

Quote
My question would be: “When was the time of Revelation that John was shown that soon coming? In other words, did he receive that message back in ninety-something AD, or sometime future to us?

Neither. I believe Rev to have been written during Vaspasian's reign, sometime in the mid to late 70s, concerning the persecution the church would suffer under Domitian. John would have received the message at that time and then have written it down in a book as instructed.

Offline larry2

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #7 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 00:36:17 »

My question would be: “When was the time of Revelation that John was shown that soon coming? In other words, did he receive that message back in ninety-something AD, or sometime future to us?



Neither. I believe Rev to have been written during Vaspasian's reign, sometime in the mid to late 70s, concerning the persecution the church would suffer under Domitian. John would have received the message at that time and then have written it down in a book as instructed.


Different biblical have estimated the Book of Revelation to have been written in 95 AD, and the “things which must shortly come to pass” of Rev 1:1 must be future from that time.

A real key to me is Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . .
From that point in time John is shown three viewpoints according to Rev 1:19 is told to: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”
Again; from what day?

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/how-did-apostle-john-die.html
The Emperor Domitian reigned as Roman Emperor from 81 to 96 A.D. He likely banished the apostle to the island of Patmos.



Offline soterion

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 08:01:42 »

A real key to me is Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . .
From that point in time John is shown three viewpoints according to Rev 1:19 is told to: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”
Again; from what day?


I already answered that question from my viewpoint. Let me quote myself: I believe Rev to have been written during Vaspasian's reign, sometime in the mid to late 70s, concerning the persecution the church would suffer under Domitian. John would have received the message at that time and then have written it down in a book as instructed.

He wrote down the things he had seen, the things which are (right then), and the things which shall be hereafter (future from that moment, which can mean tomorrow, next week, next year, ten years from now, twenty).

Hereafter shouldn't just automatically mean 2,000+ years in the future. John was given to write things which must shortly take place for the time is at hand, things directly applicable to the seven churches for whom he was writing the message.

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #9 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 08:14:39 »
soterion,

If your view of Revelation is correct, then I fail to see what value it has for us today.  And that would be very unlike the whole of the rest of the Bible.  Perhaps, if you could, give me what you see as the value of the book

Offline soterion

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #10 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 08:26:17 »
soterion,

If your view of Revelation is correct, then I fail to see what value it has for us today.  And that would be very unlike the whole of the rest of the Bible.  Perhaps, if you could, give me what you see as the value of the book

If you could sum up the message in a phrase or single sentence, what would it be? Victory in Christ? To the faithful goes the victory? Overcoming Satan in Christ? Something like that, no doubt.

It is a timeless message of comfort to any and all through the ages who have suffered persecution, or even just struggled with faithfulness. Lot's of instructions on what to look out for from Satan, especially in chapters 2 and 3, but elsewhere also. I believe it basically is a message of encouragement and warning, and we can be encouraged as well as warned concerning some of Satan's tools against us.

Your question is fair, but I believe a fair counter would be, what value is there in reading 1 Samuel, or 2 Chronicles, etc. The principles we learn and apply from any of these books are highly valuable, even if what we are reading is history.

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #11 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 08:41:32 »
Your question is fair, but I believe a fair counter would be, what value is there in reading 1 Samuel, or 2 Chronicles, etc. The principles we learn and apply from any of these books are highly valuable, even if what we are reading is history.
Thank you for answering.  The value of such passages as 1 Samuel and 2 Chronicles is, I feel, the same as nearly the whole of the OT, namely, to give the information and data to establish the truth of the Bible as God's word.  It is the only real basis we have for believing any of the NT.  I don't see that same purpose in Revelation if it indeed is history.  But perhaps that is just me.

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #12 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 11:40:33 »
Larry,
Three resurrections,

One catching away (rapture) of the church.

Of course Jesus is the "first-fruit unto the father."

1st Resurrection of the saints, April of 30 B.C.  Matthew 27:52-53, The key word here is "After."
The saints, "came out of the graves (O.T. saints, those obedient under law) who had died and were now raised from the dead) after his (Jesus) resurrection-- These are the first-fruit unto Christ.

Second resurrection of the saints, still future. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and 2 Corinthians 16:51-52, "Behold, I (Paul) show you (Christians) a mystery (a thing hidden in God until now) --- In a moment in the twinkling of a eye,  ------ the dead shall be raised incorruptable---." These having died by faith in Jesus Christ.

Third resurrection of the saints, Revelation 20:4, those who had not received the mark of the beast will be killed by being beheaded, but at the end of the tribulation, these same people "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Lived here means to be raised from the dead. These had to forfiet their lives for their faith. they rejected the mark, therefore, they were beheaded. 

The one catching away, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Of course Revelation is revelant today, it speaks of events yet future. Revelation is a continuation of many O.T. prophesies yet unfulfilled.

LaSpino3


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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #13 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 12:57:23 »
Are there going to be different raptures depending upon the spiritual walk of a believer?

Is the book of Revelation relevant to today, and what we should believe is to come?

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . . .



I doubt that Watchman Nee was the first to claim partial raptures but I believe he has helped popularize this erroneous belief.  See the link for his claims about a partial rapture and his claims why other rapture theories are wrong:

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm

Some who believe in a rapture that takes place 3 1/2 or 7 years before a period of tribulation and then God's unleashed wrath don't realize that the concept of a rapture is based on the belief that God is going to deal with the Jews exclusively after God has finished dealing with the Gentiles.    They just assume that a rapture is to protect believers from this time of wrath.  I don't believe that God's wrath is for the believer either, but I do believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the majority of OT prophecy already.   I don't base my end-times beliefs on what Dispensationals propose as Christ's failures just as the Jews do.    In other words, since Christ did not set up the millennial (or Messianic)kingdom as the Jews were expecting then we, the Church, are supposed to go along with that belief and believe that Paul was wrong in what he said in Galatians 3:16 and that Jesus was not the promised offspring of Abraham who fulfilled God's promises.   Dispensational John Hagee has said that Jesus did not come as the Messiah so we should not believe that the Jews were wrong in rejecting Him.   I with that those who propose these various theories about a rapture would actually stop and think about what they are claiming along with their rapture beliefs because they are claiming that Jesus did not complete God's plan of salvation and reconciliation for all of mankind.   
« Last Edit: Tue May 08, 2018 - 13:00:54 by notreligus »

Offline larry2

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #14 on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 14:13:07 »

Larry,
Three resurrections,

One catching away (rapture) of the church.

Of course Jesus is the "first-fruit unto the father."

1st Resurrection of the saints, April of 30 B.C.  Matthew 27:52-53, The key word here is "After."
The saints, "came out of the graves (O.T. saints, those obedient under law) who had died and were now raised from the dead) after his (Jesus) resurrection-- These are the first-fruit unto Christ.

Second resurrection of the saints, still future. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and 2 Corinthians 16:51-52, "Behold, I (Paul) show you (Christians) a mystery (a thing hidden in God until now) --- In a moment in the twinkling of a eye,  ------ the dead shall be raised incorruptable---." These having died by faith in Jesus Christ.

Third resurrection of the saints, Revelation 20:4, those who had not received the mark of the beast will be killed by being beheaded, but at the end of the tribulation, these same people "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Lived here means to be raised from the dead. These had to forfiet their lives for their faith. they rejected the mark, therefore, they were beheaded. 

The one catching away, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Of course Revelation is revelant today, it speaks of events yet future. Revelation is a continuation of many O.T. prophesies yet unfulfilled.

LaSpino3


Hi LaSpino. Would you agree that those in Mt 28:52 rising from the grave (Not all) were the Old Testament elect resting in Abraham’s bosom?

Eph 4:9   Now that He (Jesus) ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (Would this have been Paradise where Jesus took the thief that day? (Lk 23:43)

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies (Not all?) of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Thanks, and I slowed this answer down so as to not wander from a very important event.


Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #15 on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 09:58:27 »
Larry wrote, "Would you agree that those in Mt 28:52 rising from the grave (Not all) were the Old Testament elect resting in Abraham’s bosom?

theI agree with the statement, but I'm curious about the phrase you used, "(not all)." We know there was no church yet, so Christian's could not be counted  in the resurrection of Matthew 27. Pre-flood people, hmmmm, maybe! not sure. From Noah to Abraham, I wouldn't think so! Can't think of anyone except for Noah, and Shem who would qualify as saints. So, that leaves only those who had faith in God from Abraham to Christ, old testament saints.

Phil

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Re: Pre-Trib - Always fun.
« Reply #16 on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 15:05:36 »
Larry wrote, "Would you agree that those in Mt 28:52 rising from the grave (Not all) were the Old Testament elect resting in Abraham’s bosom?

I agree with the statement, but I'm curious about the phrase you used, "(not all)." We know there was no church yet, so Christian's could not be counted  in the resurrection of Matthew 27. Pre-flood people, hmmmm, maybe! not sure. From Noah to Abraham, I wouldn't think so! Can't think of anyone except for Noah, and Shem who would qualify as saints. So, that leaves only those who had faith in God from Abraham to Christ, old testament saints.

Phil


Hi Brother Phil, I believe this formula in Mt 27 will be consistent with the catching up of the Church. The first saints seen by John in heaven are the 24 elders (Rev 4:4 - Smyrna of Rev 2:10), and the 4 beasts (Rev 4:6 - Philadelphia of Rev 3:10), or living ones as some bible versions read, but even those not first are with Jesus that have died. 2Co 5:8   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Now until Jesus died, and was resurrected no one had been to heaven prior to him; the price of entrance had not been paid. Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Where were the righteous of God? In Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom.

Jesus had told the thief on the cross in Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise. But where was Paradise at that time? Eph 4:9  Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

But then, where is Paradise today? 2Co 12:4  How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise, . . .
Hi LaSpino, I believe this formula will be consistent with the catching up of the Church. The first saints seen by John in heaven are the 24 elders (Rev 4:4 - Smyrna of Rev 2:10), and the 4 beasts (Rev 4:6 - Philadelphia of Rev 3:10), or living ones as some bible versions read, but even those not first are with Jesus that have died. 2Co 5:8   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Now until Jesus died, and was resurrected no one had been to heaven prior to him; the price of entrance had not been paid. Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Where were the righteous of God? In Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom

But then, where is Paradise today? 2Co 12:4  How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise, . . .
Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.




 

     
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