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Author Topic: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception  (Read 12127 times)

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Offline Corbley

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Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 01:03:02 »
Obama is set to negotiate talks between Isreal and Palistine.
IF he were to succeed and mastermind a 7 year treaty, and world conflict gave way to a peace the world has not seen. The 3rd temple began construction and other prophecies fell into place.

Should these events occur and you are still here, would you still believe in pre tribulation rapture?

I have read the verses which support both a pre-tribulation rapture and a mid tribulation rapture and am unsure......           anyone who claims to know for sure  is guessing..... Both arguments are sound, so none of us can be sure......
Would that not be a great deception by Satan to have most of the Christian world believe they are going to magicly disappear before anything bad happens to them?
Then when they do not, they will be much easier to decieve into "taking security measures"

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Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 01:03:02 »

Offline Mrs Mac

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #1 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 04:16:12 »
I think the deception of Satan is that the church mainly is not ready and waiting. The imminent return of Christ should have a purging affect on the church instead it is falling away and playing AT church.

How could this Scripture be wrong?
Quote
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.


When we read that in conjunction with the Scriptures describing The Day of the Lord in Joel, Zechariah. Zephaniah and Matthew 24 which describe The seven year Tribulation how can we doubt that we will be saved from that wrath?

Obama might as well speak to the wind, he will not be brokering peace at this time.


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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #1 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 04:16:12 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #2 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:17:36 »
I think the deception of Satan is that the church mainly is not ready and waiting. The imminent return of Christ should have a purging affect on the church instead it is falling away and playing AT church.

How could this Scripture be wrong?
Quote
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.


When we read that in conjunction with the Scriptures describing The Day of the Lord in Joel, Zechariah. Zephaniah and Matthew 24 which describe The seven year Tribulation how can we doubt that we will be saved from that wrath?

Obama might as well speak to the wind, he will not be brokering peace at this time.





By beginning at the first verse of 1 Thessalonians 1 and finishing with verse 10, I think that our belief in Christ will deliver us from the wrath to come which is the doom of all the ungodly and non believers to hell; instead of it being about the rapture.  I believe going on into the rest of the book will prove that out.

Matthew 24 definitely includes Christians going through great tribulations at the end of the age.  Many will fall from the faith being deceived by false teachers, etc., but he that endures until the end the same shall be saved.

I used to believe in a rapture that would deliver us from all the wrath that God pours out upon this world in the last days but now I'm not so sure.  There does seem to be evidence that we will go through at least part if not all of the last days.

God Bless

Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #3 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:24:06 »
The tribulation principle is still relevant: 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #3 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:24:06 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #4 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:48:45 »
The tribulation principle is still relevant: 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.


Agreed. The point you made is one of the reasons I looked for a rescue from the last days. I still partly believe in a mid-trib rapture but I'm just not sure.

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #4 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:48:45 »



Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #5 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 06:54:21 »
Ms Bonnie:

The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.15 is worded in such a way as to seem distinct from the general principle of tribulation.

The believer's safefy and comfort is a very heartening truth.

"Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall." (Isaiah 25.4)

Take care.

Offline Silvia

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #6 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 18:21:01 »
I consider myself a Pan Tribulationist.

I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out. ::smile::


Dr. David Jeremiah of Saddle Mountain Community Church has said that if you are going to be a Post Tribber, then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will have to be a sack lunch...

Having said that - I really think that the Biblical evidence indicates that the Church will not be here during the Tribulation...although I suppose this whole topic has been rehashed on the Escatology forum, so I won't try to add more input than that...

Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #7 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 18:22:43 »
Ms Silvia:

I agree, yes. The church can't be the object of Great Tribulation wrath.

... I really think that the Biblical evidence indicates that the Church will not be here during the Tribulation...although I suppose this whole topic has been rehashed on the Escatology forum, so I won't try to add more input than that...

son of God

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #8 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 20:36:17 »
Being the object of it isn't the issue at all. Being the object of it, and going through it, are two totally different things.  Why must we be so confused with our own language?  Different words, different meanings -- for a reason, too.

Show me one place in the Word where it states that the church doesn't go through the trib.  Just one.

Offline avenger

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 21:05:49 »
I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  ::shrug::

  

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 21:08:21 »
Ms Bonnie:

The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.15 is worded in such a way as to seem distinct from the general principle of tribulation.

The believer's safefy and comfort is a very heartening truth.

"Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall." (Isaiah 25.4)

Take care.

I don't know. We live in a sin striken doomed world. We suffer the same as the non believers because of that.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #11 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 21:14:09 »
I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  ::shrug::

  

There just doesn't seem to be any direct answers to the subject in the Bible.  If there will be a great falling away, who is falling away if not Christians? A sinner has no where to fall to.

son of God

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 21:44:59 »
I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  ::shrug::

  

Good post.  It is good to see one who knows the Word addresses those two things. 

Being chiast, lest start with the latter:
It is interesting how the pre trib crowd holds that God wouldn't let His church go through the trib, so they are raptured beforehand.  Yet they see the Word speak of believers in the trib, so they say that they are those who are saved in the trib.  So then if God wouldn't let the "mature" church go through it, why on earth would He let the infant go through it?  Stupid logic.  There's no other word for it.  it's just stupid logic.

That being said, I am not saying that you are in the group.  far from it, as stated by your posts, it seems.

The israelites suffered a number of the plagues, but not all of them.  Have you studied this out?  Much of the OT is a picture portraying spiritual truths.  i recommend studying it out, and it will give insight into your second quesiton.  Take time, even years, to study and learn from God.  if you always just have the answers dropped on your plate, you don't know how to study, and you don't learn from God, but man.  That is foolish.  There are no shortcuts to wisdom in Christ.

As to your first question, again, the OT sheds light on it.  However, I am confident that one can stick strictly to the NT, as in the second question of yours, but the OT sheds much light on it.  In the NT, and in that passage expressly, I think that you will find parameters given.  Check the context.  For a bit of a foundational work, study out the OT usage of the word "everlasting".  this gives much background for reading the NT.  this is not to negate anything in the NT, or the OT, by any means, but when understood in light of how it is used in the Word, we get an understanding and insight into the context and constraints of statements in the NT.  Cool stuff.  I struggled with the same first question as you, many years ago.  I spent years on it, off and on, with the Lord teaching me in other things, before I could understand this one.  Others will be given understanding on this one, and that will be used for understanding on other ones.  God is God, and teaches and instructs as He wishes, per person.  It's a blast.

"Wait upon the Lord.  And again I say, WAIT!"  Much wisdom in that, from God Himself.  Listen to Him.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #13 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 21:49:10 »
I lean pre-mill.  Classic Pre-Mill.  Not the Darby variety.

Amo

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #14 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 22:47:49 »
Quote
But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will only be two crops harvested when the Lord returns.  Those of the world that worship the beast and his image, and those not of this world who worship God.  Those who worship the beast will persecute those who do not.  This will be the tribulation. 


Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.





k-pappy

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #15 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 02:15:04 »
I do not think the specific point of the tribulation that rapture occures at is any great deception.  I think this is one of those "disputable matters" that Paul talks about.  After all, we can all agree on the following:

In this world we will have troubles and tribulations
Christ is returning for His people
Christ wins in the end!

Marantha!  ::clappingoverhead::

In Christ,
KP

Offline kensington

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #16 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 02:34:00 »
I think the deception of Satan is that the church mainly is not ready and waiting. The imminent return of Christ should have a purging affect on the church instead it is falling away and playing AT church.

How could this Scripture be wrong?
Quote
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.


When we read that in conjunction with the Scriptures describing The Day of the Lord in Joel, Zechariah. Zephaniah and Matthew 24 which describe The seven year Tribulation how can we doubt that we will be saved from that wrath?

Obama might as well speak to the wind, he will not be brokering peace at this time.




That is just so true... 

Offline rezar

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #17 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 08:40:36 »
Quote
The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

Right, it wasn't. But you are living in the past.

This world won't end. God won't.  Wow what a job, preaching about the world ending & your kids not having a life on earth. What a career. You were most helpful to the people on earth!

Bye bye. Leave us all your stuff, thanx.






larry2

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #18 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 12:54:20 »
Being the object of it isn't the issue at all. Being the object of it, and going through it, are two totally different things.  Why must we be so confused with our own language?  Different words, different meanings -- for a reason, too.

Show me one place in the Word where it states that the church doesn't go through the trib.  Just one.


I won't state this is referring to the entire Church, but a portion of it; the bride.

Revelation 3:10
KJV - Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

ESV - Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

NIVUS - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

In Jesus' name - larry2


larry2

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #19 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 13:19:59 »
I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  ::shrug::


Dear avenger, the Holy Spirit will never be taken away, because there are those that are saved during the tribulation, and the millennium; The Holy Spirit is here to lead them to Christ.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
 
The one restraining below that will be taken out of the way is the bride we see talked of in Revelation 3:10 who will be taken to be with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning; not the Holy Spirit. "Because thou (the bride) hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or holds back the tribulation from starting) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

ESV - For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

NIV - For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 

In Jesus' name - larry2


Offline elijah_101

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #20 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:29:23 »
The tribulation principle is still relevant: 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.


Agreed. The point you made is one of the reasons I looked for a rescue from the last days. I still partly believe in a mid-trib rapture but I'm just not sure.

Hello Bonnie

Read these Scriptures and see if Jesus comes in the middle of the Tribulations, Let God be true

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matt 24:29-30

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:24-26

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Matt 24:31

After the TRIBULATIONS Jesus shall gather together his ELECT Matt 24:29-31

We know when Jesus comes he will gather his elect to the meeting in the air right?

now when does Jesus come?

According the the Words of Jesus Christ above

Before, in the middle, or after the great tribulations



« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:35:54 by elijah_101 »

Offline elijah_101

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #21 on: Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 14:33:28 »
Quote
larry2 Revelation 3:10
KJV - Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Them that keep the Commandments words and sayings of God John 14:14-23

A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.Psalms 91:7-8

son of God

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #22 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 17:27:02 »
As a friend used to say, "Stick this in your pipe and smoke it":  (Rev 20:1)  And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

(Rev 20:2)  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:3)  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

(Rev 20:4)  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev 20:5)  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(Rev 20:6)  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:7)  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.

(Rev 20:8)  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.


Explain that for a mid trib!  Explain that for a pre trib!  Gotcha!

Offline elijah_101

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #23 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 21:46:49 »
As a friend used to say, "Stick this in your pipe and smoke it":  (Rev 20:1)  And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

(Rev 20:2)  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:3)  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

(Rev 20:4)  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev 20:5)  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(Rev 20:6)  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:7)  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.

(Rev 20:8)  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.


Explain that for a mid trib!  Explain that for a pre trib!  Gotcha!

Before all the Scriptures you posted happens Christ must return, And Jesus said I come Immediately after the tribulation Matt 24:29-30 Mark 13:24-26

 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Now when Does Jesus do that?

Immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-30

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matt 24:31

What is Jesus going to do when he Returns?

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.Mark 13:27


Which is the meeting in the air

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17

Alive and remaining from what ? The Great Tribulations  Revelation 7:14, Then we will be Caught up togather to meet Jesus in the Clouds

To go to heaven?

No

If the saints are going to heaven How then will the saints judge the world and angels? 1 Corinthians 6:2

As the Scriptures says in Jude 1:14

Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:14-15

The Scriptures says that the Saints will rule and reign here on Earth Revelation 5:10

the Saints will reign with Christ for a 1,000 years Revelation 20:6

then after the 1,000 years are expired

Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:7-8

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Rev 20:10

And after that

all the dead, small and great, stand before God and be judge according to their words Rev 20:12

the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Rev 20:12

the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:13-15


Then after this

I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven
Rev 21:1-2

Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #24 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 21:48:43 »
I don't see in Scripture anything that must happen first before the Lord Jesus returns for His people. (1 Thess. ch. 4.)

son of God

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #25 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 22:03:57 »
would you like scripture that would tend to debunk that, F?  And if given, will you believe it?

Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #26 on: Thu Sep 24, 2009 - 22:08:38 »
soG:

As is well known, ppl who see a clear distinction about Israel an earthly ppl and the church, a hidden, heavenly ppl, see also a clear distinction between the aspect of the Lord's coming which deals with the church, and the aspect which deals with the Lord's coming in power in glory.

It's good to remember that huge numbers of Christians in North America simply and honestly hold to dispensational distinctions in Scripture.

Hence the approach mentioned in relation to the Lord's coming in 1 Thess. 4.

would you like scripture that would tend to debunk that, F?  And if given, will you believe it?

son of God

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #27 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 01:06:03 »
Can you show me where the time frame is given in 1 Thes. please?

larry2

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #28 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 09:15:23 »

Can you show me where the time frame is given in 1 Thes. please?


Showing the time other than the time of Lord's Day is assumption. Building an order of the resurrection is another. Regardless of who the Lord comes for, it will be in the order of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; the dead first, and then we which are alive.

In these verses we read of a trump of God being sounded; is there only one? We read of other trumps being sounded in Revelation, most in judgment, but then there will also be a last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Can you show me a definite time sequence in these trumps? A clue is to observe when John sees them in heaven within their perspective viewpoints; in other words, one before the tribulation, another during the tribulation, and yet others after the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Since we see different ranks arriving in heaven at different times, which rank will we be in, and what are the qualifications?

In Jesus' name - larry2


Offline rezar

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 09:51:50 »


We will be "caught up" into the spiritual realm when we each die individually. We will each be received by Christ. That's the "appearing" hope of Christ for us today when we die.
But many miss the abundant life on planet earth bc they think Christ meant only life in the afterlife.

Christ receives you to Himself when you get "harpazoed."  Nothing to do with continuing to live on planet earth. We live on in the spiritual realm we know as God's heaven.

The dead were raised out of Hades. The living were spiritually transformed & we were seated in the heavenly places in Spirit with Christ Jesus.

The dead preceded any of the living going to heaven. "Then" those who are alive & remain will be caught up-  when we die.

We go straight to heaven.  We don't wait in Hades like they had to in ancient times.  The "sons of God" appeared in the 1st century AD. (Romans 8)



Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 09:54:31 »
As well as the point of individual death, there is also a day when 'the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout' (1 Thess. 4).

Offline rezar

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 09:57:52 »
As well as the point of individual death, there is also a day when 'the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout' (1 Thess. 4).

Yes, that WAS for the 1st Christians, as Paul prophesied throughout & Jesus told about the kingdom of heaven & God being "near" in time > Their time.

Not ours. I believe that is misplaced hope- & not living in the Spirit in the present.


Offline farouk

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 10:00:06 »
Ms r:

No, I seek to follow what the New Testament says, by God's grace.

As well as the point of individual death, there is also a day when 'the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout' (1 Thess. 4).

Yes, that WAS for the 1st Christians, as Paul prophesied throughout & Jesus told about the kingdom of heaven & God being "near" in time > Their time.

Not ours. I believe that is misplaced hope- & not living in the Spirit in the present.



Offline rezar

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #33 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 10:19:27 »
Ms r:

No, I seek to follow what the New Testament says, by God's grace.

As well as the point of individual death, there is also a day when 'the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout' (1 Thess. 4).

Yes, that WAS for the 1st Christians, as Paul prophesied throughout & Jesus told about the kingdom of heaven & God being "near" in time > Their time.

Not ours. I believe that is misplaced hope- & not living in the Spirit in the present.



That's good farouk. I seek God's grace also. But it has nothing to do with the Eschatology He has already given me the wisdom to understand. It has more to do with sharing bc of the grace He has bestowed. Faith may work differently on individuals- but the message is the same. 
I wait on God in the Biblical sense- as in having patience to hear from Him. Sometimes it takes a minute-sometimes a day a month or a year. 
We are close to God that way. We don't have to depend on Him not having fulfilled all. We just have to ask. God is spirit. 
There won't be any physical Second coming.  He did that the 1st time.  He's on the throne in heaven. He turned down an earthly kingdom.

Besides, you futurists have been predicting prophecy forever- And it NEVER happens.  Why do you think that is?  Because you missed the NATURE of His coming in Scripture- just like the so-called church fathers.

I believe it's the apostles who wrote that their Scripture was inspired- NOT the church "fathers."

Saying this & that going to happen- but you don't know when or how or what-- is NO prophecy at all. 


Tantor

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Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception
« Reply #34 on: Fri Sep 25, 2009 - 10:24:06 »
Jesus said all these things were going to happen to the generation still alive.

The first verse of Revelation states that everything contained in the book was soon to happen..

That is what the new testament says.. I'll quote it here in the version you prefer (KJV) which I detest for your benefit.

Quote
Revelation 1

 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation was to unfold shortly and the time was at hand... you cannot stretch this by any logical means to mean 2000+ years.


Quote
45Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.

 46And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

 47Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

 48Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

 49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

 50That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

 51From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

 52Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

 53And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

 54Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Israel's judgment (as spoken of in Revelation) was to happen within Jesus' generation.


 

     
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