Pre-Tribulation rapture is a deception

[Corbley]

Obama is set to negotiate talks between Isreal and Palistine.
IF he were to succeed and mastermind a 7 year treaty, and world conflict gave way to a peace the world has not seen. The 3rd temple began construction and other prophecies fell into place.

Should these events occur and you are still here, would you still believe in pre tribulation rapture?

I have read the verses which support both a pre-tribulation rapture and a mid tribulation rapture and am unsure......           anyone who claims to know for sure  is guessing..... Both arguments are sound, so none of us can be sure......
Would that not be a great deception by Satan to have most of the Christian world believe they are going to magicly disappear before anything bad happens to them?
Then when they do not, they will be much easier to decieve into "taking security measures"

[Mrs Mac]

I think the deception of Satan is that the church mainly is not ready and waiting. The imminent return of Christ should have a purging affect on the church instead it is falling away and playing AT church.

How could this Scripture be wrong?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

When we read that in conjunction with the Scriptures describing The Day of the Lord in Joel, Zechariah. Zephaniah and Matthew 24 which describe The seven year Tribulation how can we doubt that we will be saved from that wrath?

Obama might as well speak to the wind, he will not be brokering peace at this time.

[Bonnie]

I think the deception of Satan is that the church mainly is not ready and waiting. The imminent return of Christ should have a purging affect on the church instead it is falling away and playing AT church.

How could this Scripture be wrong?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

When we read that in conjunction with the Scriptures describing The Day of the Lord in Joel, Zechariah. Zephaniah and Matthew 24 which describe The seven year Tribulation how can we doubt that we will be saved from that wrath?

Obama might as well speak to the wind, he will not be brokering peace at this time.

By beginning at the first verse of 1 Thessalonians 1 and finishing with verse 10, I think that our belief in Christ will deliver us from the wrath to come which is the doom of all the ungodly and non believers to hell; instead of it being about the rapture.  I believe going on into the rest of the book will prove that out.

Matthew 24 definitely includes Christians going through great tribulations at the end of the age.  Many will fall from the faith being deceived by false teachers, etc., but he that endures until the end the same shall be saved.

I used to believe in a rapture that would deliver us from all the wrath that God pours out upon this world in the last days but now I'm not so sure.  There does seem to be evidence that we will go through at least part if not all of the last days.

God Bless

[farouk]

The tribulation principle is still relevant: 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

[Bonnie]

The tribulation principle is still relevant: 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

Agreed. The point you made is one of the reasons I looked for a rescue from the last days. I still partly believe in a mid-trib rapture but I'm just not sure.

[farouk]

Ms Bonnie:

The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.15 is worded in such a way as to seem distinct from the general principle of tribulation.

The believer's safefy and comfort is a very heartening truth.

"Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall." (Isaiah 25.4)

Take care.

[Silvia]

I consider myself a Pan Tribulationist.

I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out.


Dr. David Jeremiah of Saddle Mountain Community Church has said that if you are going to be a Post Tribber, then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will have to be a sack lunch...

Having said that - I really think that the Biblical evidence indicates that the Church will not be here during the Tribulation...although I suppose this whole topic has been rehashed on the Escatology forum, so I won't try to add more input than that...

[farouk]

Ms Silvia:

I agree, yes. The church can't be the object of Great Tribulation wrath.

... I really think that the Biblical evidence indicates that the Church will not be here during the Tribulation...although I suppose this whole topic has been rehashed on the Escatology forum, so I won't try to add more input than that...

[son of God]

Being the object of it isn't the issue at all. Being the object of it, and going through it, are two totally different things.  Why must we be so confused with our own language?  Different words, different meanings -- for a reason, too.

Show me one place in the Word where it states that the church doesn't go through the trib.  Just one.

[avenger]

I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  

  

[Bonnie]

Ms Bonnie:

The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.15 is worded in such a way as to seem distinct from the general principle of tribulation.

The believer's safefy and comfort is a very heartening truth.

"Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall." (Isaiah 25.4)

Take care.

I don't know. We live in a sin striken doomed world. We suffer the same as the non believers because of that.

[Bonnie]

I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  

  

There just doesn't seem to be any direct answers to the subject in the Bible.  If there will be a great falling away, who is falling away if not Christians? A sinner has no where to fall to.

[son of God]

I don't know the answer to the pre/post tribulation question, but I do have questions of my own:

-If we as Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and during the tribulation the HS is removed from the earth.......how does that jive with God will never leave or forsake you?

-Why would God want those whom he already holds in his hand to have to suffer the GT prior to receiving our reward?

I don't understand how that could be.  Doesn't that go completely against the nature of God?  He loves us and we have asked for and received his gift of eternal life ..........but he wants us to suffer without him for the last 7 years of our time on earth?

Avenger  

  

Good post.  It is good to see one who knows the Word addresses those two things. 

Being chiast, lest start with the latter:
It is interesting how the pre trib crowd holds that God wouldn't let His church go through the trib, so they are raptured beforehand.  Yet they see the Word speak of believers in the trib, so they say that they are those who are saved in the trib.  So then if God wouldn't let the "mature" church go through it, why on earth would He let the infant go through it?  Stupid logic.  There's no other word for it.  it's just stupid logic.

That being said, I am not saying that you are in the group.  far from it, as stated by your posts, it seems.

The israelites suffered a number of the plagues, but not all of them.  Have you studied this out?  Much of the OT is a picture portraying spiritual truths.  i recommend studying it out, and it will give insight into your second quesiton.  Take time, even years, to study and learn from God.  if you always just have the answers dropped on your plate, you don't know how to study, and you don't learn from God, but man.  That is foolish.  There are no shortcuts to wisdom in Christ.

As to your first question, again, the OT sheds light on it.  However, I am confident that one can stick strictly to the NT, as in the second question of yours, but the OT sheds much light on it.  In the NT, and in that passage expressly, I think that you will find parameters given.  Check the context.  For a bit of a foundational work, study out the OT usage of the word "everlasting".  this gives much background for reading the NT.  this is not to negate anything in the NT, or the OT, by any means, but when understood in light of how it is used in the Word, we get an understanding and insight into the context and constraints of statements in the NT.  Cool stuff.  I struggled with the same first question as you, many years ago.  I spent years on it, off and on, with the Lord teaching me in other things, before I could understand this one.  Others will be given understanding on this one, and that will be used for understanding on other ones.  God is God, and teaches and instructs as He wishes, per person.  It's a blast.

"Wait upon the Lord.  And again I say, WAIT!"  Much wisdom in that, from God Himself.  Listen to Him.

[Bon Voyage]

I lean pre-mill.  Classic Pre-Mill.  Not the Darby variety.

[Amo]

But the coming of the Lord Jesus for His people (as distinct from the aspect of His coming in power and glory) is the next event the church waits for. The church itself is not the object of the Great Tribulation's wrath.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will only be two crops harvested when the Lord returns.  Those of the world that worship the beast and his image, and those not of this world who worship God.  Those who worship the beast will persecute those who do not.  This will be the tribulation. 


Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.