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Offline 19

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Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« on: Wed Oct 09, 2019 - 06:53:37 »
1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. NIV

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. NIV 

As of the fifth seal there was no rapture of the church. There are plenty of people before the tribulation who died because of their testimony. In Thessalonians verse 16 the dead will rise first. For those souls under the altar to be united with their bodies the rapture has to occur after the opening of the fifth seal. The purpose of the resurrection is to unite body and soul.
   
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. NIV

God has not avenged their blood as yet. The tribulation has not even started by the fifth seal being opened. It will not start until the last saint is killed for their testimony.

Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. NIV

This is the latest in Revelation that we can say with any certainty that someone is killed for their testimony. If the witnesses are, as believed by most, Elijah and Enoch, they are certainly brothers and fellow servants.

Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." NIV

And it seems as though they are raptured shortly after they die.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. NIV

What does Jesus say that the lamp stands symbolize?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels  of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. NIV

If seven lamp stands represented 7 churches then 2 of them are 2 churches.

And what do the 2 olive trees represent?
   
Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! NIV

God has had 2 churches as His witness on earth. The first was the church under law. That was the natural olive tree - Israel. After Jesus His witness was the church under grace which was a hybrid olive tree – Israel with gentiles grafted in.

The come up here in chapter 11 was said to 2 churches and those churches were called to heaven.


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Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« on: Wed Oct 09, 2019 - 06:53:37 »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 08:04:49 »

Offline 19

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #2 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 14:44:43 »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 14, 2019 - 07:14:53 »
Other perspectives to think about and know.

Other perspectives are NEVER considered seriously by evangelical Christians.    They aren't considered because it hurts too much to think about studying and reorganizing thoughts and beliefs that have settled in like cured concrete within our collective skulls.

Rapture is generally accepting to describe the removal of righteous persons by Christ into Paradise prior to the millennium period of shabbat (sabbath) for planet earth.   

The extension of the actual event of the 'taking up' is confused and muddled by divisive conversation and differing interpretations. 

"Those that love truth embrace it.  Those that love it not, interpret." - Blaze Pascal

 Whatever else one may say about the rapture dogma, one must admit it is convoluted confused and not accepted in a coherent form by most evangelical Christians.   Non-American Christians generally either reject the idea out of hand or pay little attention to it.  There are several versions of the rapture theory and not everyone agrees how it will play out.  That being said there are other matters worthy of consideration.

According to strict study of the millennial period, ancient Hebrew prophecies state the history of the world will play out in sections of one thousand years each.   One thousand years is a millennium and that's basically where the term millennium originates.  The ancient prophecy states that there would be a period of two thousand years of object lessons - pre LAW.   During that period God would teach in physical terms and by actual events explained by prophets.  At the end of that period God would give the LAW (Torah) to His people Israel by the hand of Moses. 

The next two millennia, two thousand years, would see the rule of Torah (LAW).   During this period object lessons would continue as well as prophets speaking God's word.  In addition, however, Torah would be held in high regard as God's written Word to His people Israel.  If you are keeping track by counting on your fingers you should have four fingers counted - for four thousand years. 

The next two millennia, according to ancient Hebrew prophecy, would be the Messianic period.  Messiah would appear to His people and teach the ways of God to their hearts and minds directly.  During those two thousand years the Messiah would be the object of considerable attention and devotion.   That's six thousand years total if you're still counting.

The next period would be a shabbat or sabbath millennium.   The earth would be given rest from its use and misuse and humans would not even be present.   That's a total of seven thousand years, or a week of millennium years.

If you look closely at the series of events predicted by Danial, Ezekiel, Revelation and the apostolic letters you'll see that the days of human habitation upon the earth are ended prior to the sabbath millennium.    The righteous are removed to Paradise and the sinners are all destroyed.   There is nothing left.  Satan is left to wander a barren planet for one thousand years - all alone with nobody to tempt and nothing to do at all.   At the bottom of a dark pit if you look at the experience from the devil's point of view and consider the Bible's words as true.

At the end of the sabbath millennium the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.   The 2nd resurrection of the sinners happens and they join satan to attack the New City.   All of the attackers are destroyed and consigned to the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.   There is no everlasting punishment, but there is a final permanent destruction.   Not even ashes remain, the Bible says.

Versions of what is to happen during the seventh millennium vary because they do not accurately reflect ancient prophecy from the Bible nor do they logically portray events that unfold at the end of human history.

A great deal of prophecy remains in the future, but not that far away by any account one wishes to consider.   The time is short and the wise man will repent and seek peace with God through Christ Jesus as soon as possible.    Whether taken up during life or whether meeting Christ at death, one ought to be aware that terrible times are approaching.  It is wise to prepare one's heart and get right with God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 14, 2019 - 07:19:30 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 14, 2019 - 07:14:53 »
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Online Rella

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 14, 2019 - 07:39:35 »
Other perspectives are NEVER considered seriously by evangelical Christians.    They aren't considered because it hurts too much to think about studying and reorganizing thoughts and beliefs that have settled in like cured concrete within our collective skulls.

Rapture is generally accepting to describe the removal of righteous persons by Christ into Paradise prior to the millennium period of shabbat (sabbath) for planet earth.   

The extension of the actual event of the 'taking up' is confused and muddled by divisive conversation and differing interpretations. 

"Those that love truth embrace it.  Those that love it not, interpret." - Blaze Pascal

 Whatever else one may say about the rapture dogma, one must admit it is convoluted confused and not accepted in a coherent form by most evangelical Christians.   Non-American Christians generally either reject the idea out of hand or pay little attention to it.  There are several versions of the rapture theory and not everyone agrees how it will play out.  That being said there are other matters worthy of consideration.

According to strict study of the millennial period, ancient Hebrew prophecies state the history of the world will play out in sections of one thousand years each.   One thousand years is a millennium and that's basically where the term millennium originates.  The ancient prophecy states that there would be a period of two thousand years of object lessons - pre LAW.   During that period God would teach in physical terms and by actual events explained by prophets.  At the end of that period God would give the LAW (Torah) to His people Israel by the hand of Moses. 

The next two millennia, two thousand years, would see the rule of Torah (LAW).   During this period object lessons would continue as well as prophets speaking God's word.  In addition, however, Torah would be held in high regard as God's written Word to His people Israel.  If you are keeping track by counting on your fingers you should have four fingers counted - for four thousand years. 

The next two millennia, according to ancient Hebrew prophecy, would be the Messianic period.  Messiah would appear to His people and teach the ways of God to their hearts and minds directly.  During those two thousand years the Messiah would be the object of considerable attention and devotion.   That's six thousand years total if you're still counting.

The next period would be a shabbat or sabbath millennium.   The earth would be given rest from its use and misuse and humans would not even be present.   That's a total of seven thousand years, or a week of millennium years.

If you look closely at the series of events predicted by Danial, Ezekiel, Revelation and the apostolic letters you'll see that the days of human habitation upon the earth are ended prior to the sabbath millennium.    The righteous are removed to Paradise and the sinners are all destroyed.   There is nothing left.  Satan is left to wander a barren planet for one thousand years - all alone with nobody to tempt and nothing to do at all.   At the bottom of a dark pit if you look at the experience from the devil's point of view and consider the Bible's words as true.

At the end of the sabbath millennium the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.   The 2nd resurrection of the sinners happens and they join satan to attack the New City.   All of the attackers are destroyed and consigned to the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.   There is no everlasting punishment, but there is a final permanent destruction.   Not even ashes remain, the Bible says.

Versions of what is to happen during the seventh millennium vary because they do not accurately reflect ancient prophecy from the Bible nor do they logically portray events that unfold at the end of human history.

A great deal of prophecy remains in the future, but not that far away by any account one wishes to consider.   The time is short and the wise man will repent and seek peace with God through Christ Jesus as soon as possible.    Whether taken up during life or whether meeting Christ at death, one ought to be aware that terrible times are approaching.  It is wise to prepare one's heart and get right with God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quote
  "Other perspectives are NEVER considered seriously by evangelical Christians.    They aren't considered because it hurts too much to think about studying and reorganizing thoughts and beliefs that have settled in like cured concrete within our collective skulls."   

Does that make it right? In everything? I submit not.

Before I ever joined GC back longer then I remember I was an absolute die hard PRE-Trib believing person.
It is what I knew, understood, talked, and prayed for.

Then enter GC and everything, over the year, has come into question .... NO NOT EVERYTHING... but the mid-trib, post trib, never trib beliefs that I had never given a thought to.

So you may well never consider other perspectives seriously, but you should.

There are always 2 sides to each coin. Each has its own value, especially when backed by scripture.

I am openminded.... unlike many on this forum. I have had my beliefs altered because of you and others.

But ..............

Quote
         The extension of the actual event of the 'taking up' is confused and muddled by divisive conversation and differing interpretations.           

Where exactly does one definitively know whose interpretation is correct.

I have been reading the arguments between many here back and forth here, not on this subject, but primarily on baptism ::eek:: and the blood threads currently being debated. As a person, not partaking in those... but reading every word of those, I will freely admit I am not smart enough to discern who is right and who is wrong IN THEIR INTERPRETATIONS.

I , personally, am no longer pre-trib and that has nothing to do with GC. It has to do with "other perspectives" that you are poo pooing.

The only thing that matters , to me, is that Jesus returns sooner then anyone believes possible. Maranatha...........

And that is me hollering right back at you......


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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 14, 2019 - 07:39:35 »



Offline 19

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #5 on: Wed Oct 16, 2019 - 10:31:36 »
Because the souls of all the saints from the OT up to the time of the opening of the fifth seal were under the altar were still without a body the rapture has to be after the opening of the fifth seal. We also know that the tribulation has not started because God told the souls they had to wait for their deaths to be avenged until the full number of martyrs comes in.
   
2 Thessalonians  2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until (3a) the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. NIV 

Paul said we would not be gathered to Jesus until whats happens after verse 3a. Therefore the temple has to be in place. If there is not to be a temple there will be some sign that believers can see is a fulfillment of this prophecy. I believe there will be an end times temple and this will be fulfilled as written. If the rebellion has not already happened it can be seen on the horizon.
   
1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. NIV

As Paul has already said we will be changed at the last (seventh) trumpet.   
   
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.  6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. NIV

We know that in the book of revelation until chapter 20 verse 6 those who died during the tribulation were in the first resurrection. That has to be the first resurrection during the time period covered by the book of revelation.
   
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. NIV

Christ was the first fruit then those who belong to Him when He comes will be resurrected when He comes. There is only one resurrection of the righteous. 

The only way for the day of the Lord to come as a thief is to deny the word of God.

Offline 19

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Re: Rapture does not happen in Chapter 4
« Reply #6 on: Tue Oct 22, 2019 - 07:19:42 »
Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.   20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved .“NIV

The 2 witnesses, Elijah and Enoch, (or who ever God has chosen) will have a lot of Spirit filled company. It sounds like another book of Acts (of the Spirit) to me. His church will bring Him a lot of glory before the beast puts them down. Let's stop focusing on the hard times to come. Instead let's focus on the incredible opportunity God has given His end time church. He has trusted us with the task of acting like His children and bring Him glory. Maybe we should start practicing with the armor God has given us while its still time to practice and not to late to learn how to use it.