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Author Topic: RAPTURE QUESTIONS  (Read 16343 times)

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Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #35 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 18:38:37 »

If you would read your scriptures, you will see that the last trump is not the same as a trumpet sounding. These are two different events.

1COR.15 [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND

Ive read this scripture hundreds of times. Every time i read it....it says AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND

Yep, that's for the one verse, but as I said twice, that isn't the same event as the other verse you presented.
No, Wall is correct. 1 Cor.15 depicts the last trumpet when the promise to the "fathers" are raised out of Hades.
Matt.24:29-31 depicts the same. God gathers His "elect" from the 4 corners of heaven after the tribulation. The angels are the reapers.
Same event.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 18:48:27 by Lehigh »

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #35 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 18:38:37 »

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #36 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 18:43:26 »

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then (after that time) we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


As it is one event, then the "then", or, "after that time" is immediate.
Again you give an opinion only and contradict what the Greek meaning is in the Text:

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the verse that the physical rapture theory comes from. A little time spent looking at the Greek words should quickly dispel many false notions.

Let's start with the first word in the verses -the word "then." This is the Greek word epeita. Normally, when a sequence of events is described, the simple word eita "then" is used. Eita is best translated as "at that time" or "next". Eita is used to indicate an immediate sequence. We see this in:

    John 19:26-27 (NKJV) When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then (eita)He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

This is a series of events - one immediately after the other.

But in our text, the Greek word is not eita but epeita, which is essentially the same Greek word with an "epi" prefix. This has the effect of affixing the word "after" to the word "then", and the best translation becomes "after then", "after that", or "after that time",and thereby doesn't include the idea of right after.

Let's look at some other uses of epeita to get a clearer idea of its meaning:

    Galatians 1:18 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

In this case, the word "then" involved at least three years later.

    Galatians 1:21 (NKJV) Afterward (epeita) I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

Paul probably went first to the main seaport, Caesarea, and sailed from there to Tarsus, his birthplace (Acts 9:30). He probably then went from Tarsus, in the region of Cilicia, to Syria. It was a while after he left Jerusalem that he got to Syria and Cilicia.

    Galatians 2:1 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

Epeita here involves fourteen years.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward (epeita) those who are Christ's at His coming.

Epeita here is referring to a period of forty years. The idea is: "what came at some time afterwards, after that time, not at that time."

Now look at 1 Cor 15:5-8:

    1 Corinthians 15:5-8 (NKJV) and that He was seen by Cephas, then (eita) by the twelve. 6 After that (epeita) He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that (epeita) He was seen by James, then (eita) by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

We see in this passage that both eita and epeita are used. In verse 15:5, we see eita, indicating that the twelve (the original apostles) saw Him immediately after Peter did, the same day. In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles.

The point is, that the form of the word for "then"used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then (after that time) we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #36 on: Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 18:43:26 »

Offline gbzone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #37 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 04:58:14 »
So what is Rapture in context of scripture and the Eternal NON TIME BAsED Word of God

Think of it like this the earthly realm is the vineyard or call it wilderness and we are the fruit or wine and when God seeds us in His vineyard we grow physically and spiritually in knowledge and wisdom and then when the master of the vineyard decides and tells his harvesters the Holy Angels, alright you see those grapes, mmmm, I like them they look nice and tender go and grab me some. So the Harvesters come and cut the cluster of grapes and bring them to the master of the vineyard. This is your rapture nothing more than God's apatite of having seen you fruition with age and maturity spiritually speaking into good wine, then you are called or raptures out of this time based reality back to him in his Holy courtyard.

The rapture is from physical time based reality to timeless eternal spiritual realm to be with God, otherwise if it were from time based to time based, then it would not be raptured out of here but only transport somewhere else physically in time/space/motion, as simple as that might sound.

Another wonderful example is this you are an actor in a real life drama play and your reality is your part that you play when you are in the time based scene. Then the director of life Christ Jesus guides and counsels you through your real life drama role play until He says CUT and call you to him by a trumpet and extracts you from the reality of the drama back to your permanent reality where the director of life Christ Jesus is. So this life is a transition of this reality in our real life drama role play to the real and permanent timeless reality with The Lord.

Rapture in essence is to extract you from the reality of time/space and motion which this earthly realm is and for you to be where The Lord is in Eternity in Heavenly New Jerusalem.


John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The place that Christ prepares is Heavenly New Jerusalem the Holy city of the Saints and here we see the perpetual second coming of Christ in our last day or hour in our role play in the drama of the earthly realm. As Christ is the director of life standing behind the scene that this reality represents calls us out of the role play that we were given by the director. Christ call us out of play (RaPTuRe) and into his presence and where is is in timeless eternity, there we will be.

Sadly most people have made this time based reality more real than it actually is and have been attuned to it just like an actor gets lost in the role play and looses their bearings making the drama play as their reality.

Today many people have been tuned to this reality and forget that the real reality is in timeless eternity with Christ in New Jerusalem. Instead they have BECOME LOST IN TIME!










The problem with your concept of time space et is that We  are to Pray  "Thy kingdom come thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven.

All well and true that the unsaved and we as well once were 'living' in unreality .
But when you are saved  in that BORN again we are meant to LIVE as children of God ON EARTH.
Till the Lord calls us back home. as it were either in the rapture wher ein w eshall not taaste death or when we die.

Think of three countries. Make them differerent and that you have some knowldge of.

If what rules and governs there  is found to rule and govern here.
Then what you find there you will find here.
If what rules and governs a person there . is still found to rule and govern them here.
Then what they had and built there they will have and build here.

The Saxons did it.Vikings and Danes did it.So too the Normans.
and in their time so too did the English.

That beign irefutable.

This is also.

If what rules and governs heaven  is found to rule and govern earth.
Then what you find in heaven you will find on earth.
That beign true this also is true.

If one who was in heaven came and lived on earth.
Then he would manifest and build that which he had in heaven.

His name was Jesus.

That beign true this also is true.

"Greater works than these shall ye do ......."
Now there is nothing greater than rasing the dead.

Either Spirtualy or physicly.

So how then greater?

Now in that Jesus came to the lost sheep of the household of isreal.
He was thus 'limited'  or restrained  to a specific area and people.
For salvation is of the Jews FIRST then the gentiles.

But where as he preached the gospel and did it  to the Jewes.

He said to them that followed him.
Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel.
To every nation people and tribe.

That which was IN Christ.
was then poured out  upon His disciples and all who followed.
The holy Spirit that shall not only be upon you but shall be IN you.

The world then, may live and act  as if life was a dream or a play or a soap opera but we are not.

But that which rules and governs us may be manifested in our lives .

Thy kingdom come My kingdom go.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

thus did jesus say I will build my church and ther gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Jews rejected the kingdom and it was offered to the gentiles.

Moses and Joseph were already married to a gentile bride when they presented themselves to their bretheren the second time.

The rapture of the bride  will be the taking away of that body that carries the fullness of the Spirit of God.
Even as thier master was.

When she is gone .All the restriants  that had been on the spirit of antichrist will be gone.
and  the antichrist will be given his rope  to hang himself .

While in part I can se what your thinking( I think?) that the world is unreal and like a play.
I cant agree with you that christians should be part of it or be playing church either.

in Christ

gerald


ps:  "The perpetual coming of the Lord"?!

I can assure you  that he came ONCE all ready.
Physicly  and  in time.

I would also say he was the "VOICE that walked in the cool of the evening" in the garden of Eden.
For what is a voice? If not a WORD without a body?
So it is written  " A body hast thou prepared for me"

These two alone is enough to correct your misconception.

But there is another.

In the way you see him go he wil come again.

That same Jesus of FLESH AND BONE  is coming again.
It will be that Jesus  who we will meet in the air if we are counted worthy to be in the bride.
and it is that same Jesus who will come again WITH HIs bride to the mount of Olives  and stand uponj it even as he did before.

and that same Jesus will sit on his fathers throne David  in Jerusalem.
aqnd rule the nations with a rod of iron.

In Christ

gerald

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 05:04:26 by gbzone »

Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #38 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 12:53:53 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #38 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 12:53:53 »

Offline John 8:32

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #39 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 12:57:34 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

And hello Wall,

No there are none.  Christ plainly said...

Joh 13:33  Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The dead are simply dead, sound asleep and will awaken at the resurrection which occurs at the reutrn of Christ.  Those that are Christ's and still living are changed, again, at the rerturn of Christ...

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Luke 17 and Rev 12 refer to the church fleeing to a place of safety.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #39 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 12:57:34 »



Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #40 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 13:34:05 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

And hello Wall,

No there are none.  Christ plainly said...

Joh 13:33  Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The dead are simply dead, sound asleep and will awaken at the resurrection which occurs at the reutrn of Christ.  Those that are Christ's and still living are changed, again, at the rerturn of Christ...

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Luke 17 and Rev 12 refer to the church fleeing to a place of safety.

Yeah, thats what ive found to

Offline Trumpeter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #41 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:18:05 »
We'll be at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #42 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 15:12:04 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

John 14:1-3
“Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. 2 There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.

Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #43 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 17:50:44 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

John 14:1-3
“Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. 2 There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.

John 14:1-3 (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When everything is ready,I will come and get you. What kinda book Are you reading?

Anyhoot, just read verse 3. We will be Him. Thats why hes coming here. To earth. Ya didnt think He was coming to give us directions back to heaven.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #44 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 18:53:58 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

John 14:1-3
“Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. 2 There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.

John 14:1-3 (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When everything is ready,I will come and get you. What kinda book Are you reading?

Anyhoot, just read verse 3. We will be Him. Thats why hes coming here. To earth. Ya didnt think He was coming to give us directions back to heaven.
If this was written "to" all believers directly- think about it - did Jesus return to earth when a sister died? No!
There is nothing in Scripture that supports Jesus saying he's coming to this sin filled EARTH again.

    John 3:13 (NASB) "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.

So, has this changed? If so when?

    John 13:33 (NASB) "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You shall seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, I now say to you also, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.'

    John 13:36 (NASB) Simon Peter said^ to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you shall follow later."

    John 14:2-3 (NASB) "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

If Jesus has not yet returned to receive His disciples to Himself, then John 3:13 is still in effect.

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #45 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 19:26:00 »
Micah 4

The Lord’s Future Reign

4 In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house
    will be the highest of all—
    the most important place on earth.
It will be raised above the other hills,
    and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the house of Jacob’s God.
There he will teach us his ways,
    and we will walk in his paths.”
For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion;
    his word will go out from Jerusalem.
3 The Lord will mediate between peoples
    and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
    nor train for war anymore.
4 Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
    enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
    for there will be nothing to fear.
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies
    has made this promise!
5 Though the nations around us follow their idols,
    we will follow the Lord our God forever and ever.


Zechariah 14:1-9

The Lord Will Rule the Earth

14 Watch, for the day of the Lord is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you! 2 I will gather all the nations to fight against Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the population will be taken into captivity, and the rest will be left among the ruins of the city.

3 Then the Lord will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5 You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.

6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

8 On that day life-giving waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half toward the Dead Sea and half toward the Mediterranean, flowing continuously in both summer and winter.

9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one Lord—his name alone will be worshiped.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #46 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 21:22:51 »

    "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!" (Zech. 14:4-5)

If one begins with the presupposition that the Parousia is yet future and that it is going to be a literal descent and landing of Jesus in the flesh, then one would be tempted to interpret this prophecy as referring to a literal splitting of the literal Mount of Olives. (After all, Jesus already literally stood on the Mount of Olives, so why should He not do it again at His Second Coming?)

While this approach to Zech. 14:4-5 seems credible at first, there are problems with it even in a futuristic framework --problems that have caused most futurist interpreters throughout the ages to interpret the prophecy symbolically.

First, the immediate context mentions events that took place in the first century. Most notable is the prophecy of the "living water" (Zech. 14:8). A comparison of Jn. 7:38-39 and Acts 2:17-21 confirms that the coming of the "living water" which would flow out from Jerusalem was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.

Since verse 8 was fulfilled at Pentecost, a futuristic interpretation of verses 3-7 would force us to impose a 2,000-year "leap" or "gap" upon Zechariah 14 --from the yet future Second Coming in verses 3-7, back to the day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago in verse 8, forward to a yet future "millennial reign" in verse 9.

(Such exegetical "ping ponging" through the aeons may be acceptable to one who clings to a dispensationalist framework, but it is offensive to any who would reverently let God's Word say what it says.)

Second, there is no other prophecy in Scripture that speaks of the "landing" of Jesus, or the resulting split of the Mount of Olives. If we interpret this prophecy literally, we turn it into a "stand alone" prophecy with no parallel in Scripture. We make it a weak proof text.

A literalistic approach to Zech. 14:4-5 is contextually awkward and exegetically wanting, but a symbolic approach finds that Scripture illumines the prophecy:

    "...so will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

    "For behold, the Lord is coming forth from His place. He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place." (Micah 1:3-4)

    "He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, the ancient hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting." (Hab. 3:6)

These Scriptures, and their contexts, reveal that the prophetic image of God standing on a mountain, or on mountains, and causing it to split or shatter or melt under Him is a symbol of God waging war against His enemies and delivering His saints.

Note that in Zech. 14:4-5, a mountain became a valley of salvation; and what were once valleys became mountains. This is virtually the same metaphor that was used by Isaiah, Matthew and Luke:

    "...Make ready the way of the Lord. Make His paths straight. Every valley shall be filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough roads smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Isa. 40:3-4; Matt. 3:3; Lk. 3:4-5)

According to this prophecy, whatever stood in the Church's way was going to be removed. Instead of a rough and winding highway over a mountain range (the wearying burden of the corrupted Jewish leadership), the Church would be given a straight and smooth road (the easy yoke of Christ). The Way of escape and salvation would overcome all that opposed It.

So in Zech. 14:4-5, the obstacle that opposed the Church would be shattered and overcome by a great valley that would extend to the other side of the obstacle. This is why Zechariah mentioned "the Mount of Olives" by name. That mountain stood in front of the City of Jerusalem, in the path of any who would flee directly to the East away from the City. The Mount of Olives thus served as a physical symbol of a spiritual obstacle or barrier, because of its location in front of Jerusalem.

As Zechariah's obstacle was split and made into a way of salvation, so through Christ Jesus was the "veil" of condemnation torn in two and replaced with the Way of salvation for all men. (Matt. 27:51; Heb. 9:8; 10:19-20) So too was the barrier of "the dividing wall" torn down and replaced with the peace of Christ in all nations. (Eph. 2:14-15) And so too was the destroying "mountain" of Babylon (the Jerusalem of slavery) burned up, cast into the sea, and replaced with the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Mk. 11:23; Rev. 8:8)

Zech. 14:4-5 is a prophecy of Gospel salvation. Before God destroyed His enemies in A.D. 70, He removed the barrier between His elect and their salvation. He provided a Way of escape and of salvation for His Church. That "Way" was Christ, His Word, His Gospel. At the sound of His Gospel-Voice, His disciples fled from the corruption of the world and from the wrath of God (Matt. 3:7; Lk. 3:7; 21:36; Rom. 2:3; Heb. 2:3; 6:18; 12:25; II Peter 1:4; 2:20; Rev. 12:6; 18:4). Abiding in His Word, they were hid under the refuge of the shadow of His Wings, in the valley of His Mountains. (Zech. 14:5)

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #47 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 22:42:52 »

    "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!" (Zech. 14:4-5)

If one begins with the presupposition that the Parousia is yet future and that it is going to be a literal descent and landing of Jesus in the flesh, then one would be tempted to interpret this prophecy as referring to a literal splitting of the literal Mount of Olives. (After all, Jesus already literally stood on the Mount of Olives, so why should He not do it again at His Second Coming?)

While this approach to Zech. 14:4-5 seems credible at first, there are problems with it even in a futuristic framework --problems that have caused most futurist interpreters throughout the ages to interpret the prophecy symbolically.

First, the immediate context mentions events that took place in the first century. Most notable is the prophecy of the "living water" (Zech. 14:8). A comparison of Jn. 7:38-39 and Acts 2:17-21 confirms that the coming of the "living water" which would flow out from Jerusalem was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.

Since verse 8 was fulfilled at Pentecost, a futuristic interpretation of verses 3-7 would force us to impose a 2,000-year "leap" or "gap" upon Zechariah 14 --from the yet future Second Coming in verses 3-7, back to the day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago in verse 8, forward to a yet future "millennial reign" in verse 9.

(Such exegetical "ping ponging" through the aeons may be acceptable to one who clings to a dispensationalist framework, but it is offensive to any who would reverently let God's Word say what it says.)

Second, there is no other prophecy in Scripture that speaks of the "landing" of Jesus, or the resulting split of the Mount of Olives. If we interpret this prophecy literally, we turn it into a "stand alone" prophecy with no parallel in Scripture. We make it a weak proof text.

A literalistic approach to Zech. 14:4-5 is contextually awkward and exegetically wanting, but a symbolic approach finds that Scripture illumines the prophecy:

    "...so will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

    "For behold, the Lord is coming forth from His place. He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place." (Micah 1:3-4)

    "He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, the ancient hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting." (Hab. 3:6)

These Scriptures, and their contexts, reveal that the prophetic image of God standing on a mountain, or on mountains, and causing it to split or shatter or melt under Him is a symbol of God waging war against His enemies and delivering His saints.

Note that in Zech. 14:4-5, a mountain became a valley of salvation; and what were once valleys became mountains. This is virtually the same metaphor that was used by Isaiah, Matthew and Luke:

    "...Make ready the way of the Lord. Make His paths straight. Every valley shall be filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough roads smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Isa. 40:3-4; Matt. 3:3; Lk. 3:4-5)

According to this prophecy, whatever stood in the Church's way was going to be removed. Instead of a rough and winding highway over a mountain range (the wearying burden of the corrupted Jewish leadership), the Church would be given a straight and smooth road (the easy yoke of Christ). The Way of escape and salvation would overcome all that opposed It.

So in Zech. 14:4-5, the obstacle that opposed the Church would be shattered and overcome by a great valley that would extend to the other side of the obstacle. This is why Zechariah mentioned "the Mount of Olives" by name. That mountain stood in front of the City of Jerusalem, in the path of any who would flee directly to the East away from the City. The Mount of Olives thus served as a physical symbol of a spiritual obstacle or barrier, because of its location in front of Jerusalem.

As Zechariah's obstacle was split and made into a way of salvation, so through Christ Jesus was the "veil" of condemnation torn in two and replaced with the Way of salvation for all men. (Matt. 27:51; Heb. 9:8; 10:19-20) So too was the barrier of "the dividing wall" torn down and replaced with the peace of Christ in all nations. (Eph. 2:14-15) And so too was the destroying "mountain" of Babylon (the Jerusalem of slavery) burned up, cast into the sea, and replaced with the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Mk. 11:23; Rev. 8:8)

Zech. 14:4-5 is a prophecy of Gospel salvation. Before God destroyed His enemies in A.D. 70, He removed the barrier between His elect and their salvation. He provided a Way of escape and of salvation for His Church. That "Way" was Christ, His Word, His Gospel. At the sound of His Gospel-Voice, His disciples fled from the corruption of the world and from the wrath of God (Matt. 3:7; Lk. 3:7; 21:36; Rom. 2:3; Heb. 2:3; 6:18; 12:25; II Peter 1:4; 2:20; Rev. 12:6; 18:4). Abiding in His Word, they were hid under the refuge of the shadow of His Wings, in the valley of His Mountains. (Zech. 14:5)

Zechariah's obstacle?

Rather than receive the prophetic word of the Lord, some people cram it all into a false pattern of symbolism.  ::frown::

New Jerusalem

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #48 on: Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 23:04:37 »
Gbzone

The Kingdom is REAL friend and more REAL and tangible than this physical realm:


“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do no break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Matthew 6:19-21).

He says in Matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” There are a lot of things vying for your heart, as this is the control center for life.

We need to define our terms properly within the context of the Word of God.

Firstly the permanent country where Abraham and all the Saints of Old and New covenant Saints have been flocking to is Heavenly New Jerusalem and it is emphatically declared in Revelation 21:2


New Living Translation
And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

It is a REAL and Tangible Holy City separate from the physical earthly realm.

Secondly this physical realm is a temporary dwelling that is not our permanent home but a testing ground before migrating to the New Heavenly Country to be with Christ.

Thirdly Christ is with us already and we are not alone for it is His Holy Spirit that dwells in us:

John 14:18-20 (NLT)
No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

We do not need to wait for an earthly manifestation of Christ because he dwells in us and is our wonderful counsellor and our everlasting Father.

What does it mean "WORLD WILL NO LONGER SEE ME"?

This means that the world who has rejected him will never see him physically again, because the carnal word only sees with their physical eyes.

However the world that rejected him will see him spiritually again (every spiritual eye shall see him even those that pierced/rejected him) only at the End of Age when they are resurrected to be judged and condemned to eternal death (Second Death).

Fourthly Christ came to call us OUT of the WORLD saying we are NOT of this WORLD and at the same time said "MY KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD"

Many millennium earthly reigners will twist and turn at these facts, but the truth is only found in Christ and when He declares that His Kingdom is NOT of this World, then there should be no IFs or BUTs about it.

Fifthly Thy WILL will be done as in Heaven (MORE REAL and Tangible) so to on Earth

This was and is today mission accomplished in Christ and by His Holy Spirit.
Kingdom of Christ is Heavenly New Jerusalem and at the same time it is also SPIRITUALLY earthly Jerusalem Yesterday (Pentecost.), NOW, tomorrow and not some distant millennium fable of dispensationlism.

Let us understand God's plan of salvation by understanding the fulfillment of ALL of the Old Testament promises and prophecies that were and are solely tied to the SEED to come Christ Jesus, who came and bore our sins on the cross at cavalry and arose taking with him many captives that were awaiting for him in paradise side of shoal (Abraham's Bosom/under the Altar).

Zechariah 10:4 (NLT)
From Judah will come the cornerstone, the tent peg, the bow for battle, and all the rulers.

Cornerstone Christ Jesus
Tent Peg God the Holy Spirit
Battle Bow God the Father

The Holy Trinity Functions of the Father as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Father sends his only begotten Son Christ Jesus
Then The Father sends His Holy Spirit on Pentecost
Then Finally The Heavenly Father comes himself as the Ancient of Days mentioned in Daniel, to finish of all His Son's enemies and destroy the earth completely by the consuming FIRE (First death in Noah's days man was destroyed by water to cleanse the earth symbolizing water baptism and finally second death will be like Noah's days when the earth will be totally destroyed by fire to make a quick riddance of man and beast). Keep this in mind that is both Water and Fire, for water cleanses and fire purges.

Isaiah 30:27 (NLT)
Behold, the name of the LORD comes from afar, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue like a devouring fire:

Noah's flood baptized the land cleansing it of man and thereby signifying our water baptism in Christ who cleanses us of our sins.
The Purging fire comes this time after many are purged spiritually by God the Holy Sirit by sanctifying the faithful in Christ, just like Noah and his family. Having been justified bybthe blood of the Lamb of God we are baptised spiritually by Fire and the Holy Ghost before the great and dreadful day of The Lord comes as a purging Fire destroying the land and all inhabitants and then THE END.

That is why it is called Grace period because the physical purging by Fire is restrained for a time, time and half a time before God sends a curse upon the whole earth to rid it of man and beast.

So when the Battle Bow comes who is the Holy Heavenly Father, He will not have any mercy on those who rejected His Son regardless of their genealogies. Remember the only protections afforded the spiritual Israelites (Christians) in that day will be the Passover Lamb on the door of their Hearts.

John 3:5
Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

The Water here is you Justification Pass (get out of death row Pass)
The Fire here is your sanctification by the Holy Spirit of God (rehabilitation of pardoned prisoner)

Water + Fire = Seal of the Living God stamped on your passport to migrate to the New Heavenly Country New Jerusalem

Sixthly God's earthly Kingdom is already here and has been here since Pentecost at the arrival of God the Holy Spirit, the Spiritual Temple builder. True born again Christians are the Holy Temples of God the Holy Spirit and prepared by God for His indwelling when one is firstly baptized by water in the name of His only begotten Son then agrees to take part as a pardoned criminal in a life long purging process (Spiritual Rehab) that is arbitrated and overseen by God the Holy Spirit in every born again Christian life. Therefore the body of Christ is earthly Jerusalem and are ambassadors of Christ making their last stance against evil and the wicked ones. They are overcomers and die in The Lord as witnesses of Revelation of John for the sake of the Christ.

How can we know that the Kingdom of Christ on earth is spiritual is because it is built and coordinated without human hands, for God the Holy Spirit builds and coordinates his earthly spiritual Israel in Christ's absence, for He will testify of Christ.

Zechariah 4:7-9
Who art thou, O great mountain (God's Spiritual Israel = Born again Christians) ? before Zerubbabel (God) thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (Cornerstone Christ Jesus) thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it (By Grace are we saved).
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel (God the Holy Spirit) have laid the foundation of this house (Holy Temple that born again Christians represent); his hands shall also finish it (This is the Holy Temple as promise by the prophets that is built upon the SEED of promise Christ Jesus and it is built by God the Holy Spirit and NOT human hands as previously built in old  convenant days);

Seventhly

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

So the only earthly kingdom and manifestation will be Satan himself who will establish himself as Jesus so that many who are blinded by him today may be destroyed because they received not the truth of Christ and looked outward for their justification and sanctification and ignored God the Holy Spirit who was sent to sanctify them.


2 Timothy 3:5-9
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
They are the kind who work their way into people’s homes and win the confidence ofa vulnerable women who are burdened with the guilt of sin and controlled by various desires. (Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth.) These teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith. But they won’t get away with this for long. Someday everyone will recognize what fools they are, just as with Jannes and Jambres.

In conclusion any person that says that the promises and prophecies of the Old Testament Prophets of God were not fulfilled completely in Christ Jesus are antichrists who reject the blood atonement of Christ as the promised SEED who was to come and also reject God the Holy Spirit who sanctifies them on the condition that they are justified through baptism of water in Christ.

The seventieth week has been completely fulfilled in Christ when Jesus said IT IS FINISHED and yet the dispensationlists say NO and not only that they make our Lord in

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

To be the antichrist.

Christ confirmed the covenant in one week to both the living and the dead. The Holy Bible is about God's salvation plan and not about how satan will make or break covenants, this garbage that is preached by dispensationalists is nothing short of satanic.

Even the apostles confirm that Christ confirmed the covenant to the living for 3 1/2 days (symbolized by his 3 1/2 year ministry) and then he was CUT OFF from the land of the Living in the middle of the week (he was crucified) and then went to Abraham and all those in Abraham's bosom for the remainder of the symbolic week.

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

The sacrifice to end all sacrifices was when the Lamb of God was offered as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices once and for ALL.

God stopped any future sacrifice after He gave the ultimate of ALL sacrifices at cavalry. Does this come as a surprise to why God ceased the sacrifices and the oblatation. If you have doubts you have serious problems and do not understand why sheep and goats were offered continuously for the atonement of sins and that they CAN NO LONGER have any part in God's salvation Plan for the BAIL BOND has already been paid in FULL once and for ALL at cavalry. Any future sacrifices if offered up in an earthly temple are an abomination in the sight of The Lord our God.

We therefore as born again Christians do not look for earthly manifestation of our Lord but that when we DIE and are raised on the third day (Hosea 6:2), that we are prepared by God the Holy Spirit for our Lord to receive us in our resurrected spirit bodies of flesh and bone, to rapture us out of this realm and into his presence and Kingdom in New Jerusalem.

Do you know that dispensationlists preach that Christ will return on this dictated by TIME decaying and dying earth and that there will be half resurrected saints running around with half NOT resurrected mortals in a utopian millennium Kingdom, that will be measured by a ticking clock counting down from a 1000 years. What is insidious is that in this time there will also be people given in marriage to repopulate the earth in this millennium kingdom. Did Jesus say that there will be people given in marriage or that all will be like angels. This earthly dictated by TIME esrthly kingdom of the dispensationalists then must not be our Lord's Heavenly Kingdom but satan's utopian earthly beast kingdom (beast of the bottomless pit). How could non glorified humans be in the presence of a glorified and Holy Christ. The dispensationlists have no answers for all these statements exposing them as the false prophet of John's Revelation.













Offline n2thelight

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #49 on: Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 00:04:04 »
Ill ask again

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 
The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.
 
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. So PLEASE tell me you rapturist, explain why the LAST trumpet is really not the LAST trumpet.

Wall,you have it right,anyone who believes in a rapture won't see it,fact of the matter is there is only one last trump,which is the 7th

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. We have already established that each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

Remember the "dead" are the "spiritually dead" in Christ. "Raised" again means to "become awakened", to become active from another existence. The soul will shed its flesh and blood body to take on the new spiritual body, which is the incorruptible body. You may be spiritually dead, but you will also take on your new incorruptible body, which you will live in for the Millennium age kingdom of Christ.

Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.

This bring out another point to consider, for if you are changed, the instant of the sounding of the seventh trumpet into your spiritual body, then whoever you see at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, when Satan arrives is a fake. If someone claims to be Jesus Christ, and you are still in your flesh body, than that supernatural person is an impostor, a fake, a liar, an Antichrist. That can't be to hard to understand. If your kids are younger than you, or grandma is still in the nursing home, than that man is a fake.

This is what we covered above concerning I Thessalonians 4:13-17. This is why Paul does not want us ignorant concerning the dead. Death is not the end but the beginning of the new life, and Paul does not want Christians especially to be ignorant as to were the dead are. Lets review it again.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him."

Believing that Jesus died and rose again is required of all Christians. At the seventh trump God is not going to raise soul rotting in the ground, but they are already there with Him, and at Jesus coming these souls of dead loved ones will return with Christ to the earth. There is not meeting half way as the rapture theory teaches, but at their arrival you who are alive at that time will be changed to the same spiritual bodies that they have.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the time of the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep."

Like was stated before, in the Greek it states that there is no one that is alive at the Lord's coming that will precede them that are already with Him. If each soul goes back to the Father at death, then there is no way that those souls are still in the ground to be here when Jesus returns. Why? They are already there with Him.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

This seventh trumpet is the trumpet of God and the other trumpets are the soundings angels of God, sounding out the event of the six trumpets dealing with deceptions by Satan. The trumpet is announcing that something is about to happen before that event comes into operation. The seventh trumpet announces that God has had enough of this age of the flesh, and the new kingdom is about to begin. The dead in Christ shall rise first for they are already with Him. Their soul went immediately to be with the Father when they breathed their last breathe of life in their flesh body. That can't be that hard to understand.

In verse fifty Paul said "I want to show you a mystery", and here Paul is saying, "I don't want you to be ignorant"; are you?

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

In Hebrews 12:1; "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."

This is the same Greek usage of the word "cloud" that he spoke in I Thessalonians 4:17. The clouds that Paul is speaking of is that we are going to gather in one large family. Joel talked of a cloud of locust, only here we are talking about a cloud of Christians. The "air" as given here is not "pneuma" or sky, but from "aemi" in the Greek, # 109 in the Strong's, and it means the "breath of life" or your "spiritual body".

This is exactly what is said in I Corinthians 15:51, for we are all going to change in an instant into our "breath of life", or "spiritual bodies", to meet the Lord at His arrival at the seventh and last trumpet. Each of us that lives in the flesh bodies at the time of the "day of the Lord", at the seventh trumpet are going to greet the coming of Jesus in our spiritual bodies. Don't get carried away with the fairy-tales of the church world today, or you will have sealed your fate with "the mark of the beast". When some preacher tells you that you do not have to study Revelation or some other part of God's Word, they are trying to seal your mind into taking the mark of the beast. There is a "sealing" time coming and it is going on right now. We are living in the final generation which started with the Jews reestablished their homeland.

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only one those souls that have eternal live, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

So the flesh body must be put aside before we put on our incorruptible body that will not age through the entire Millennium age. The Word "Mortal" again means "liable to die". The object of this verse is the body, and the corruptible flesh body must be changed into the body that doesn't grow old. All through this fifteenth chapter we have documented that Christ is a live, and that he lives, and it is for that reason that we are Christians. It would be senseless to be Christians if Christ did not come out of the tomb.

"This mortal must put on immortality," again means that the soul that is mortality must also put on immortality. Christ taught in Matthew 10:25-28.


Offline John 8:32

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #50 on: Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 12:07:19 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

John 14:1-3
“Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. 2 There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.

John 14:1-3 (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When everything is ready,I will come and get you. What kinda book Are you reading?

Anyhoot, just read verse 3. We will be Him. Thats why hes coming here. To earth. Ya didnt think He was coming to give us directions back to heaven.

Add this to it...

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #51 on: Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 18:42:24 »
Add this as the topping:

Matt.24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (old covenant age)

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
(Jewish end time war -AD67-70.5)
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

25 See, I have told you ahead of time.  - If this hasn't happened yet, why did Jesus tell the disciples this? 

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Read it again. These cosmic signs were directly witnessed in Roman and Jewish history over Jerusalem during the Jewish/Roman war.

Stephen, after being stoned and about to die said "Lord receive my spirit."   That is in essence the same as Jesus saying "I will receive you to Myself."

Uh, now you try showing me where Jesus said He was returning to earth.




Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #52 on: Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 20:46:20 »
Matthew 24:22
In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

All future, yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:1-10 says:

The Thousand Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah is rich with kingdom prophecies. In Isaiah 11:6-9 it is revealed that animals will be peaceful and docile herbivores, and no longer carnivorous.



Isaiah 65:20-25 says:
“No longer will babies die when only a few days old.
    No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life.
No longer will people be considered old at one hundred!
    Only the cursed will die that young!
21 In those days people will live in the houses they build
    and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.
22 Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses
    and confiscate their vineyards.
For my people will live as long as trees,
    and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.
23 They will not work in vain,
    and their children will not be doomed to misfortune.
For they are people blessed by the Lord,
    and their children, too, will be blessed.
24 I will answer them before they even call to me.
    While they are still talking about their needs,
    I will go ahead and answer their prayers!
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together.
    The lion will eat hay like a cow.
    But the snakes will eat dust.
In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain.
    I, the Lord, have spoken!”



There will still exist birth, life and death on the Earth, with lifespans greatly increasing to the time that existed between Adam and Noah.

There are many more characteristics of the Earthly Millennial Reign that are divulged in these passages.


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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #53 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 01:50:05 »

Who does scripture say the bride is?

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:


ISAIAH 27 {12} And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

You got the last trumpet (1Cor.15)
The gathering of Israel AND A FEW STRANGERS AND OTHERS (in the twinkling of an eye)
Headin for Jerusalem (not heaven)



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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #54 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 01:53:14 »

Who does scripture say the bride is?

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:


ISAIAH 27 {12} And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

You got the last trumpet (1Cor.15)
The gathering of Israel AND A FEW STRANGERS AND OTHERS (in the twinkling of an eye)
Headin for Jerusalem (not heaven)

Plus a few strangers and others

 JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I MUST BRING. Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where?

ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

GATHER....THEM WILL I BRING. Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” {verse 8}are the gentiles that take hold of HIS covenant.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #55 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 01:58:00 »
He brings them in the twinkling of an eye. The house of Israel and us strangers and we others

Offline John 8:32

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #56 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 08:07:49 »
Add this as the topping:

Matt.24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (old covenant age)

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
(Jewish end time war -AD67-70.5)

Hmmm, the Siman Bar Kokhba revolt of 132 AD resulted in many more deaths and more severe punishment of the Jews.  Hitler was even worse, killing at least 6,000,000 and Stalin's pograms resulted in 40,000,000 deaths, of which only God knows how many were Jewish.  Seems 70AD was not the worst and it was not only equaled, but surpassed.

Quote
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

How about the Jews in Corinth?  (See Acts 18)  How about Aquila and Priscilla?  Seems that the Roman army didn't worry much about them.

1Co 16:19  The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

"Now after Corinth had remained deserted for a long time, it was restored again, because of its favorable position, by the deified Caesar, who colonized it with people that belonged for the most part to the freedmen class."

– Strabo, Geography, 8.6.23. c.23 AD.

"Corinth is no longer inhabited by any of the old Corinthians, but by colonists sent out by the Romans."

– Pausanias, Periegesis Hellados, 2.1.2., c.150 AD.


Quote
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.  - If this hasn't happened yet, why did Jesus tell the disciples this? 

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Read it again. These cosmic signs were directly witnessed in Roman and Jewish history over Jerusalem during the Jewish/Roman war.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If this has already happened, looks like you and I missed the boat.

Quote
Stephen, after being stoned and about to die said "Lord receive my spirit."   That is in essence the same as Jesus saying "I will receive you to Myself."

Taking a little license there aren't you?

Quote
Uh, now you try showing me where Jesus said He was returning to earth.

Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10  All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11  And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.

Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17  And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18  And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19  This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You keeping the Feast, are you?  How about the Sabbath...

Isa 66:23  And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 08:19:23 by John 8:32 »

Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #57 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 12:22:54 »
My 2nd question is where are we going as the 1Cor.15 event occurs. Ive heard most everyone claim we are going to heaven. Ive found no scriptures to back up that claim. Are there any?

Boy is it hard to get a straight answer from you rapturist. No scriptural answer as to the last trumpet and as of now no scriptural answer to question above.

Offline Trumpeter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #58 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 12:35:52 »
Quote
    "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!" (Zech. 14:4-5)

If one begins with the presupposition that the Parousia is yet future and that it is going to be a literal descent and landing of Jesus in the flesh, then one would be tempted to interpret this prophecy as referring to a literal splitting of the literal Mount of Olives. (After all, Jesus already literally stood on the Mount of Olives, so why should He not do it again at His Second Coming?)

A few years ago one of the major hotel chains wanted to build on the mount of olives and found that they couldn't because they found that exactly as Zach says there's a giant fault line running right through the middle of it and if there was a major earthquake it would split just as it says it will in the word of God.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #59 on: Wed Dec 12, 2012 - 18:16:46 »
John 8:32 said:
Quote
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

cometh with clouds doesn't mean coming to earth. And "who" would "perceive" Him coming in power, the glory of the Father?
Also, don't be afraid to take my license too. It has set many a futurist free.

You forgot what the prologue Rev.1 passage says.Ponder it. The time has passed:
Rev.1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and
signified [it] by his angel unto
his servant John:
Quote
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.
This is hyperbolic language describing the event. The O.T. is replete with prophetic hyperboles.

Offline fish153

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #60 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 13:13:53 »
John 8:32 said:
Quote
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

cometh with clouds doesn't mean coming to earth. And "who" would "perceive" Him coming in power, the glory of the Father?
Also, don't be afraid to take my license too. It has set many a futurist free.

You forgot what the prologue Rev.1 passage says.Ponder it. The time has passed:
Rev.1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and
signified [it] by his angel unto
his servant John:
Quote
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.
This is hyperbolic language describing the event. The O.T. is replete with prophetic hyperboles.

"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This SAME Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven
.” (Acts 1:9-11)

Acts very clearly states that Jesus was taken up into heaven bodily----and will return the SAME WAYEVERY EYE will truly see him.  Your interpretation is faulty to say the least--and not based on scripture at all.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 13:17:26 by fish153 »

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #61 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 14:41:32 »
John 8:32 said:
Quote
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

cometh with clouds doesn't mean coming to earth. And "who" would "perceive" Him coming in power, the glory of the Father?
Also, don't be afraid to take my license too. It has set many a futurist free.

You forgot what the prologue Rev.1 passage says.Ponder it. The time has passed:
Rev.1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and
signified [it] by his angel unto
his servant John:
Quote
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.
This is hyperbolic language describing the event. The O.T. is replete with prophetic hyperboles.

"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This SAME Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven
.” (Acts 1:9-11)

Acts very clearly states that Jesus was taken up into heaven bodily----and will return the SAME WAYEVERY EYE will truly see him.  Your interpretation is faulty to say the least--and not based on scripture at all.

Exactly, fish! I expect that many people have not learned how to properly discern the truth from scriptures, and that may be due in many cases to the fact that they follow teachers who lean on their own understanding and teach the same thing, which is not what God says. The consequences are that people who want to know God and His word cannot discern the figurative from the literal---their discerner is non-functional. They need Holy Spirit's perfect help, big-time!

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #62 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 15:10:32 »
John 8:32 said:
Quote
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

cometh with clouds doesn't mean coming to earth. And "who" would "perceive" Him coming in power, the glory of the Father?
Also, don't be afraid to take my license too. It has set many a futurist free.

You forgot what the prologue Rev.1 passage says.Ponder it. The time has passed:
Rev.1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and
signified [it] by his angel unto
his servant John:
Quote
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.
This is hyperbolic language describing the event. The O.T. is replete with prophetic hyperboles.

"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This SAME Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven
.” (Acts 1:9-11)

Acts very clearly states that Jesus was taken up into heaven bodily----and will return the SAME WAYEVERY EYE will truly see him.  Your interpretation is faulty to say the least--and not based on scripture at all.
I think this has been settled on here before, but if not, here is the preterists q & a notes:

QUESTION: Acts 1:11 says that Jesus is going to come back in the SAME manner He left. My Bible says He left visibly and physically. You, on the other hand, say He will not come back in the flesh. How do you defend yourself against Acts 1:11, a verse that is an obvious contradiction of preterism?

ANSWER:
The Lord was going to come in the same manner as He entered heaven. How did He enter heaven? Hidden from the eyes in a Cloud. (vs. 9) He was going to "come in like manner."

The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh. But the two men corrected the apostles by telling them that Jesus was going to come, not in the manner He left, but in the manner He entered Heaven. The Coming of the Son with His Father to indwell the Church was not going to be a coming in His flesh, but in His Divinity, in the Glory-Cloud of Yahweh God. (I Tim. 3:16)

The spiritual nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by a comparison of Matt. 16:28 and Lk. 17:21: In Matt. 16:28, Jesus taught that His Coming was going to be "in His Kingdom." In Lk. 17:20-21, He taught that His Kingdom was going to come "not with observation." If the Kingdom was going to come "not with observation," then it follows also that the King in that Kingdom (II Cor. 4:18) was also going to come "not with observation."

Hope that helped.

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #63 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 15:43:16 »
Jesus never ascended hidden in a cloud. He ascended bodily, fully visible to those who were His witnesses and recorded it for us.

Nothing was hidden, and nothing will be hidden when He returns, either. Every eye will see Him!

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.


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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #64 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 15:46:03 »
Quote
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.

Where is this in scripture?

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #65 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 17:48:29 »
Jesus never ascended hidden in a cloud. He ascended bodily, fully visible to those who were His witnesses and recorded it for us.

Nothing was hidden, and nothing will be hidden when He returns, either. Every eye will see Him!

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.



No, read my previous post. It's " in the same manner He entered heaven"  If you had studied the O.T. Besides  just "prophecies" you would understand God's many "cloud comings" and what they meant.
 

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #66 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 18:01:48 »
Jesus never ascended hidden in a cloud. He ascended bodily, fully visible to those who were His witnesses and recorded it for us.

Nothing was hidden, and nothing will be hidden when He returns, either. Every eye will see Him!

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.



No, read my previous post. It's " in the same manner He entered heaven"  If you had studied the O.T. Besides  just "prophecies" you would understand God's many "cloud comings" and what they meant.

A child can understand this, yet you don't? I know the OT. I also know that 'in the same manner' means, 'in the same way'....in other words, Jesus will come back from the heavens just the way he ascended through the heavens. It isn't rocket science. Too many people find it somehow gratifying to complicate the plain sense of scripture. It is a tactic of those who seek to lead astray. The love and search for esoterica is deadly to many.



Meanwhile, still waiting on a response regarding this:

Quote
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.

Where is this in scripture?
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 18:04:52 by Lively Stone »

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #67 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 18:21:03 »
LS said:
Quote
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Let me challenge you further-
If this were as literally seeing in our future- instead of perceiving His coming with spiritual eyes for those in the Jewish end times,  then it would be a lie. 
Why? because our loved ones died since that was written of course - but their "eyes" didn't see Him coming in the clouds of heaven.

Sooooo, "every eye will see Him" doesn't mean what you think. Because it would make Him to be a liar.

Sooo, let God be true. 


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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #68 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 21:18:18 »
Quote
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This verse announces the Lord's return to earth. Notice that every eye sees Him. That's why this great event is described as the "revealing" or "revelation" of Christ and occurs when He comes as the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS(Rev 19:11-16). Thus, the text is actually a preview of what will happen when He returns with His saints in chapter 19. Isn't it thrilling to know that when the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west(Matt 24:27), every eye will witness the spectacle of the ages? Notice also that the Israelites - a special group - will observe this momentous event, for they shall look upon [Him] whom they have pierced(Zech 12:10).

Furthermore, when he comes in power and great glory to smite the nations, all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. This is because he comes for judgement and none shall escape. As John envisions the hour when the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints(Jude 14), he victoriously cries, "Amen! Amen!" The Greek for even so is "Amen", and "Amen" is the Hebrew for even so. John is literally shouting the praise or praises of God in two languages as he says, "Amen and Amen, He is coming!"

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #69 on: Thu Dec 13, 2012 - 21:55:28 »
LS said:
Quote
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Let me challenge you further-
If this were as literally seeing in our future- instead of perceiving His coming with spiritual eyes for those in the Jewish end times,  then it would be a lie. 
Why? because our loved ones died since that was written of course - but their "eyes" didn't see Him coming in the clouds of heaven.

Sooooo, "every eye will see Him" doesn't mean what you think. Because it would make Him to be a liar.

Sooo, let God be true.

Our loved ones who know Him are looking at Him right now. They will be with Him when He comes.

Zechariah 14:5
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.



Every eye that sees Him will be the eyes of those who are on the Earth, and it is those who have rejected Him who will mourn at the sight.





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« Last Edit: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 11:52:29 by Lively Stone »