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Author Topic: RAPTURE QUESTIONS  (Read 16344 times)

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Offline John 8:32

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 11:50:27 »
John 8:32 said:
Quote
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

cometh with clouds doesn't mean coming to earth. And "who" would "perceive" Him coming in power, the glory of the Father?
Also, don't be afraid to take my license too. It has set many a futurist free.

You forgot what the prologue Rev.1 passage says.Ponder it. The time has passed:
Rev.1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and
signified [it] by his angel unto
his servant John:
Quote
Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I would have thought that if this had already occurred, it would have made a greater impression than it did.
This is hyperbolic language describing the event. The O.T. is replete with prophetic hyperboles.

For Preterism it is all hyperbole.  Whoa, wait a minute, if it is hyperbole, then you have no support for your assertion that 70AD was the tribulation.  After all, the tribulation is probably hyperbole also.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 11:50:27 »

Offline Bro Sam

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #71 on: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 11:51:58 »
Jesus will come in the clouds at the last trump.... the very last one: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:51-52 (KJV)       

This is central throughout the NT.   It is easy to trace the last trump. It will happen during tribulation and after the man of sin is revealed: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
2 Thess 2:1-3 (KJV)       

Tracking though REV you can easily find the LAST TRUMP:  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:14-15 (KJV)                     

During the woe's (third), the 7th angel sounds (last one to sound the trumpet) and Christ gathers the church together.     And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:16-18 (KJV)

It appears to be clearly shown in scripture.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #71 on: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 11:51:58 »

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #72 on: Fri Dec 14, 2012 - 20:53:48 »
Quote from: Lehigh
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.


Where is this in scripture?

Offline Bro Sam

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #73 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 08:05:34 »
Are you kidding?   In the book of Lindsay Ch 3 v. 9       ;-)      CC Carlson wrote the Lindsay books ----- a woman and Catholic.   Some fell prey to them and they made millions from the RCC's bogus doctrine to dupe folks.

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #73 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 08:05:34 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #74 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 10:54:31 »
Are you kidding?   In the book of Lindsay Ch 3 v. 9       ;-)      CC Carlson wrote the Lindsay books ----- a woman and Catholic.   Some fell prey to them and they made millions from the RCC's bogus doctrine to dupe folks.


Exactly!   
Manna 4u.
 

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #74 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 10:54:31 »



Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #75 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 14:04:19 »
My 3rd question {i hope this one gets answered}

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
                                                                                     
1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.
 
Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.
 
ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
In Isaiah we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child” in both scriptures. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both scriptures. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the what for in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.

So......

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? {which ofcourse occurs after the trib period}

Offline Bro Sam

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #76 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 14:26:40 »
There is no limited 7 yr trib period. There is no scripture for such: period.

Rapture as we call it;  1 Cor 15,  1 Thes 4  2thes 2: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
2 Thess 2:1-3 (KJV)   As you see the man of sin will be revealed first and during tribulation

This rapture occurs at the LAST TRUMP    There is only one last trump and here it is below.

Per Jesus:
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
 
Rev 11:14-19 (KJV)          in the woe's; not after them.  The seventh angel and last trump sounds and we are to forever be with the Lord.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #77 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 15:10:14 »
My 3rd question {i hope this one gets answered}

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
                                                                                     
1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.
 
Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.
 
ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
In Isaiah we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child” in both scriptures. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both scriptures. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the what for in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.

So......

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? {which ofcourse occurs after the trib period}


Hi wall. This is all around the time of the same event. But the sudden destruction of 1Thess.5 is a reference to the unbelievers, God's enemies of the Cross.

Isaiah26 is about the faithful of the O.T.  The expression "travail as a woman with child" in 1Thess.4 only is meant for the wicked- so as to say- she cannot escape that "birth" nor will the unfaithful escape. 

1Thess.5:  4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

So, after the tribulation of those days(Paul's ref. in 1Thess.5) Then Paul's reference to those who died in 1Thess4-the dead ones would be raised, then (after that time) those alive would meet their dead loved ones who are with Christ.
That is why Paul says the unbelievers" have no hope "of meeting their loved ones again.

Offline Covenanter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #78 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 15:44:43 »
Quote
Wall:
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

Does Scripture teach an "end times" tribulation. The "end" in the Apostles' question in Mat. 24 is obviously the end of the temple as Jesus prophesied, NOT a distant future end. Jesus gave a number of potential signs that were NOT signs of the imminent destruction, & a number of signs that were warning signs for the Jerusalem Christians to flee they city before its destruction. History records that they did.

The believers escaped the great tribulation that the city suffered, but suffered tribulation at the hands of the ungodly - Nero & others. Paul is clear in 2 Thes. 1 that believers suffer tribulation by the ungodly (persecution) while the ungodly suffer the tribulation of hell, when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment (aka rapture). Note that the Jerusalem believers escape tribulation in Mat. 24:21, whereas believers of all nations come out of great tribulation in Rev. 6:9 & 7:14.

Offline Bro Sam

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #79 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 16:11:57 »
I think Covenanter's assessment is clear and good.   But on to the rapture...........   Here are and watching and waiting on Jesus' coming in the clouds. 

All now Jesus is coming at the Last Trump.  There is no limited 7 yr trib for a fact 2Thes2:3.  Christian will endure tribulation to the end.  And since the end on earth for Christians is the Last Trump --- we can easily see it here and in/during tribulation:  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:14-15 (KJV)

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #80 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 20:34:55 »
Quote from: Lehigh
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.


I'd really like an answer. Where is this in scripture? What is the point of embellishing the word?
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 22:25:31 by Lively Stone »

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #81 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 22:25:44 »
Quote
Lehigh-The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.


I'd really like an answer. Where is this in scripture? What is the point of embellishing the word?

Still hung up on this silly unimportant question I see.  It is inferred by the the 2 men in Acts 1:9-11. You don't have to agree.
What the important question is: How did Christ enter heaven?  In a cloud.

Now what about 1Thess.4:17 and the Greek word "epeita"  Have you learned your lesson yet that "then (epeita) we who are alive and remain" means after that time and not right at that time?

Are you going to try to learn or oppose the truth?
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 22:31:54 by Lehigh »

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #82 on: Sat Dec 15, 2012 - 23:16:59 »
Quote
Lehigh-The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.


I'd really like an answer. Where is this in scripture? What is the point of embellishing the word?

Still hung up on this silly unimportant question I see.  It is inferred by the the 2 men in Acts 1:9-11. You don't have to agree.
What the important question is: How did Christ enter heaven?  In a cloud.

Now what about 1Thess.4:17 and the Greek word "epeita"  Have you learned your lesson yet that "then (epeita) we who are alive and remain" means after that time and not right at that time?

Are you going to try to learn or oppose the truth?

Step away from inferences and get into the meat of what is really written.

Jesus rose into the sky in the clouds, but heaven is not a geographical place. It is in the spiritual plane. Seems to me you are the one hung up in trivia.

Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride. There will be barely any noticeable time pass between the dead rising and the living rising. Opposing the truth is not my gig. Opposing the false doctrine of preterism is.

Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #83 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 10:05:44 »
Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride.

So who do you say is the bride?

Offline Covenanter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #84 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 11:35:17 »
Quote from: Lehigh
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh.


I'd really like an answer. Where is this in scripture? What is the point of embellishing the word?
I can't defend the precise form of wording you quote, BUT -

Read the first 11 verses of Acts. Jesus has been teaching his Apostles about the kingdom of God & clearly they expected him to claim his kingdom, now he was risen from the dead. They still had a lot to learn. They had heard his "kingdom" teaching, & his prophetic teaching of glory & judgment. (e.g. Mat. 25) so now they expect an earthly Davidic kingdom, with Jesus reigning as King of Israel from Jerusalem.

Jesus dismisses their question, & restates the "great commission."

When the Holy Spirit comes on them, reminding & teaching them, there is not another word in the NC Scriptures of such an earthly kingdom. His immediate kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, fulfilled by the Gospel in the hearts & lives of believers. Dead believers do not miss out - 1 Thes, 4 explains that, & 1 T 5 warns the ungodly that Jesus return for "rapture" is sudden destruction.

Quote
Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride. There will be barely any noticeable time pass between the dead rising and the living rising. Opposing the truth is not my gig. Opposing the false doctrine of preterism is.

I fully agree with the first part of that paragraph, but basically Preterism is sound doctrine. The AD 70 fulfilment of Jesus' Olivet prophecy, 2 Thes. 2 & much of Revelation does not preclude Jesus returning in glory for resurrection & judgment. Note that in 2 Thes. 2, Paul explains that the destruction (& all that goes with it) has to occur before the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The teaching of a complex futurist disp scenario AFTER Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment is totally excluded when we read such Scriptures.


Offline Bro Sam

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #85 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 12:23:34 »
At the Last Trump:    (all agree on this)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:51-57 (KJV)

Here is where the last trump is found. (note REV 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. 10. 11 order and exactness).   But the last trump is:

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
 
Rev 11:14-19 (KJV)                           Count them by searching through.

Offline grams

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #86 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 13:28:45 »
So its going to be  this month we are going to be called home ?

And then when that is over, when are those people going to say the next time is the real time ?

Have we not had 3 of them this year ?    Just wondering ! 

Since my bible does not tell me we will know the day ...............

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #87 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 13:45:43 »
Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride.

So who do you say is the bride?

The Church of Jesus Christ---all believers.

Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #88 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 13:47:38 »
basically Preterism is sound doctrine.

It is one of the silliest, most unsound doctrines of all.


Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #89 on: Sun Dec 16, 2012 - 16:01:30 »
Quote
Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride. There will be barely any noticeable time pass between the dead rising and the living rising. Opposing the truth is not my gig. Opposing the false doctrine of preterism is.

Your "gig" is wrong, period. We have proved you wrong  ::announcment::

You  keep denying what the Greek term "epeita" means in 1 Thess.4:17. "Then"  is "after that time" 
Don't be ignorant of factual information and say it means something you want to make it mean.

Besides, Hebrews says" it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgment." 

So, you are no exception. The Bible proves you wrong-  again.   There's no rapture into heaven of the living!  ::announcment::


Lively Stone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #90 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 09:30:57 »
Quote
Regarding  the Rapture, we, if we are still alive, will be immediately caught up to be with the rest of the Bride. There will be barely any noticeable time pass between the dead rising and the living rising. Opposing the truth is not my gig. Opposing the false doctrine of preterism is.

Your "gig" is wrong, period. We have proved you wrong  ::announcment::

That would be impossible.

Quote
Don't be ignorant of factual information and say it means something you want to make it mean.

That is what you do very well.

Quote
Besides, Hebrews says" it is appointed for man to die once, then the judgment." 

That's right. That is how God set it up.

Quote
So, you are no exception. The Bible proves you wrong-  again.   There's no rapture into heaven of the living!  ::announcment::

There is the exception that the bible states clearly---at the end, there will be many alive when Jesus calls for His Bride and they will go when He calls them.

I don't argue with scripture. I let it speak.

Offline Wall

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #91 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 14:15:03 »
basically Preterism is sound doctrine.

It is one of the silliest, most unsound doctrines of all.

Hey Lively Stone.....we finally agree on something

Offline Covenanter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #92 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 15:43:11 »
basically Preterism is sound doctrine.

It is one of the silliest, most unsound doctrines of all.

Hey Lively Stone.....we finally agree on something
My post from another thread:

Quote
Quote from: n2thelight on September 04, 2012, 12:45:50 AM
    So if America is in prophecy,preterism can't be true,is this correct?

America - & every other country - is in prophecy. .... in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Coming late to this forum & this thread I don't think Preterism is properly understood.

Preterists believe that when Jesus prophesied the AD 70 destruction (Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21) he went on to detail the events of that time, to give disasters that were NOT signs of the end (of Jerusalem) & signs that meant the destruction was imminent. The Jerusalem Jewish Christians took his warning & fled the city 3 1/2 years before the end.

We further believe that the OT prophets primarily prophesy Jesus, his coming; his saving work; the Gospel to the nations; his spiritual kingdom in the Gospel age; & his final coming for resurrection & judgment, & to establish a perfect NH&NE for his redeemed people. Jesus believed & taught that (Luke 24) as did the Apostles.

We further believe that Revelation was written primarily for its first C readers before AD 70, so that the various seals, trumpets & vials related to the destruction. The warnings & encouragements to the first C church establish principles for Christian living down the centuries, but there is no further detailed prophecy of "end times" & future dispensations.

We believe that Rev. 20 refers to the present Gospel age. Satan was bound that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. That was effected by Christ's resurrection & the great commission - the Gospel to the nations which were hitherto in Satan's power. Jesus bound him.

No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. (Mark 3:27)

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. (John 12:31-2)


Offline Red Baker

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #93 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 16:18:18 »
Preterism is far from sound doctrine, and I am willing to debate this subject with you to prove that it is built upon relying upon Josephus' wars of the Jews, than upon sound biblical interpretation.  All Preterist trust history above the scriptures and look to history to interpret the scriptures, instead of the word of God  being its own interpreter. 

Genesis 40:8

".....And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God?


Yes they do!  There are no biblical interpretations to be found in the "Wars of the Jews" by an Infidel named Josephus.  We need not to use "extra Biblical help" to understand the the holy scriptures, one only needs the Spirit of God dwelling within him.

So, if you like, then prove that Preterism is a system of sound doctrine.  I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 16:20:46 by Red Baker »

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #94 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 17:48:47 »
Red Baker said:
Quote
I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.

You go first. Ask a Preterist a question about Scripture and how we have arrived at that interpretation.  You just may start to be convinced as former futurists have been.  You see, preterists are former futurists. They have examined the latter doctrines and beliefs already.
Many futurists don't always let go of pride long enough to even examine preterism. But for those preterists who have, have found amazing freedom and peace about eschatology.

Eschatology is simply put is God's "end time" plan for mankind's salvation. 
The "end times" is even spoken of in Rabbinic Judaism (man-made religion following God's end of Biblical Judaism) as being in AD70. 

Not that I care if others insist on having their hope deferred indefinitely.
But if truth and salvation matters, then the truth of the whole Bible should be important - or we shouldn't study the Bible at all.






Offline Grappler

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #95 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 19:15:41 »
Red Baker said:
Quote
I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.

You go first. Ask a Preterist a question about Scripture and how we have arrived at that interpretation.  You just may start to be convinced as former futurists have been.  You see, preterists are former futurists. They have examined the latter doctrines and beliefs already.
Many futurists don't always let go of pride long enough to even examine preterism. But for those preterists who have, have found amazing freedom and peace about eschatology.

Eschatology is simply put is God's "end time" plan for mankind's salvation. 
The "end times" is even spoken of in Rabbinic Judaism (man-made religion following God's end of Biblical Judaism) as being in AD70. 

Not that I care if others insist on having their hope deferred indefinitely.
But if truth and salvation matters, then the truth of the whole Bible should be important - or we shouldn't study the Bible at all.
  I ask a Preterist how that he can so blindly ingnore how the world is going towards a one world government, how the powers of darkness are growing throughout the Earth, and how the modern state of Israel coming into exsistence...just how he can blindly ignore some of these signs??  Must be related to ostriches. ::giggle::  Oh yeah Jesus said that he would return one day also.  Where is he oh preterist??  Ever read Acts??  the two angels told the disciples that just as they see Jesus ascending towards the heaven that one day he will return in like manner... ::tippinghat::

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #96 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 20:07:21 »
LS said:
Quote
There is the exception that the bible states clearly---at the end, there will be many alive when Jesus calls for His Bride and they will go when He calls them.

Really? So you believe that scripture contradicts other scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Offline Grappler

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #97 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 20:17:35 »
LS said:
Quote
There is the exception that the bible states clearly---at the end, there will be many alive when Jesus calls for His Bride and they will go when He calls them.

Really? So you believe that scripture contradicts other scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Why not? Preterists do.  You think Jesus has already returned to set up his kingdom...but when he ascended the two angels clearly told the disciples that just as you see him ascend he will return in like manner...that would be physically Lehigh...where is he?  Oh yeah some Preterists just like to throw out certain books that they don't like (Revelation) when it disagrees with there beliefs, that way you don't have a contradiction at all ::tippinghat::

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #98 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 20:45:37 »
LS said:
Quote
There is the exception that the bible states clearly---at the end, there will be many alive when Jesus calls for His Bride and they will go when He calls them.


Really? So you believe that scripture contradicts other scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Why not? Preterists do.  You think Jesus has already returned to set up his kingdom...but when he ascended the two angels clearly told the disciples that just as you see him ascend he will return in like manner...that would be physically Lehigh...where is he?  Oh yeah some Preterists just like to throw out certain books that they don't like (Revelation) when it disagrees with there beliefs, that way you don't have a contradiction at all ::tippinghat::

Jesus would return in the same manner He entered heaven. How did he enter heaven? In a cloud.
Here is some good study material for you.
Take your time reading it and I will be back after work tomorrow.  ::sleepingsoundly::
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm

Offline Grappler

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #99 on: Mon Dec 17, 2012 - 22:45:58 »
LS said:
Quote
There is the exception that the bible states clearly---at the end, there will be many alive when Jesus calls for His Bride and they will go when He calls them.


Really? So you believe that scripture contradicts other scripture?

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Why not? Preterists do.  You think Jesus has already returned to set up his kingdom...but when he ascended the two angels clearly told the disciples that just as you see him ascend he will return in like manner...that would be physically Lehigh...where is he?  Oh yeah some Preterists just like to throw out certain books that they don't like (Revelation) when it disagrees with there beliefs, that way you don't have a contradiction at all ::tippinghat::

Jesus would return in the same manner He entered heaven. How did he enter heaven? In a cloud.
Here is some good study material for you.
Take your time reading it and I will be back after work tomorrow.  ::sleepingsoundly::
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm
I skimmed over it...typical example of taking scripture and twisting it to mean what you want it to say.  Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”  So simple a child could understand.  Well at least you didn't decide to throw out the book of Acts like you do the book of Revelation.  Instead you twist it to something totally meaningless in sense you emasculated it.  I take scripture literally and i worship a literal Jesus. Sleep tight. ::smile::

Offline gbzone

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #100 on: Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 05:23:52 »
Red Baker said:
Quote
I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.

You go first. Ask a Preterist a question about Scripture and how we have arrived at that interpretation.  You just may start to be convinced as former futurists have been.  You see, preterists are former futurists. They have examined the latter doctrines and beliefs already.
Many futurists don't always let go of pride long enough to even examine preterism. But for those preterists who have, have found amazing freedom and peace about eschatology.

Eschatology is simply put is God's "end time" plan for mankind's salvation. 
The "end times" is even spoken of in Rabbinic Judaism (man-made religion following God's end of Biblical Judaism) as being in AD70. 

Not that I care if others insist on having their hope deferred indefinitely.
But if truth and salvation matters, then the truth of the whole Bible should be important - or we shouldn't study the Bible at all.







Be ye seperate touch not the unclean thing.

an unsound doctrin is in direct proportion to the amont of 'theological terms ' and ISM's is atached to it.

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #101 on: Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 16:22:53 »
Red Baker said:
Quote
I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.

You go first. Ask a Preterist a question about Scripture and how we have arrived at that interpretation.  You just may start to be convinced as former futurists have been.  You see, preterists are former futurists. They have examined the latter doctrines and beliefs already.
Many futurists don't always let go of pride long enough to even examine preterism. But for those preterists who have, have found amazing freedom and peace about eschatology.

Eschatology is simply put is God's "end time" plan for mankind's salvation. 
The "end times" is even spoken of in Rabbinic Judaism (man-made religion following God's end of Biblical Judaism) as being in AD70. 

Not that I care if others insist on having their hope deferred indefinitely.
But if truth and salvation matters, then the truth of the whole Bible should be important - or we shouldn't study the Bible at all.







Be ye seperate touch not the unclean thing.
What in the world are you talking about?  2Cor.6:17 is about being unequally yoked with unbelievers. You might try to use the Word for edification instead of destruction, as Paul did.
Quote
an unsound doctrin is in direct proportion to the amont of 'theological terms ' and ISM's is atached to it.

Like that "Futurism?" and "dispensationalism?"  ::crackup::


Offline Trumpeter

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #102 on: Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 18:51:01 »
Preterism is far from sound doctrine, and I am willing to debate this subject with you to prove that it is built upon relying upon Josephus' wars of the Jews, than upon sound biblical interpretation.  All Preterist trust history above the scriptures and look to history to interpret the scriptures, instead of the word of God  being its own interpreter. 

Genesis 40:8

".....And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God?


Yes they do!  There are no biblical interpretations to be found in the "Wars of the Jews" by an Infidel named Josephus.  We need not to use "extra Biblical help" to understand the the holy scriptures, one only needs the Spirit of God dwelling within him.

So, if you like, then prove that Preterism is a system of sound doctrine.  I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.


Amen brother

Lehigh

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #103 on: Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 19:27:56 »
Preterism is far from sound doctrine, and I am willing to debate this subject with you to prove that it is built upon relying upon Josephus' wars of the Jews, than upon sound biblical interpretation.  All Preterist trust history above the scriptures and look to history to interpret the scriptures, instead of the word of God  being its own interpreter. 

Genesis 40:8

".....And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God?


Yes they do!  There are no biblical interpretations to be found in the "Wars of the Jews" by an Infidel named Josephus.  We need not to use "extra Biblical help" to understand the the holy scriptures, one only needs the Spirit of God dwelling within him.

So, if you like, then prove that Preterism is a system of sound doctrine.  I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.


Amen brother

More like, "Oh brother! "

When you actually take off the blinders and read the short study of Jesus' cloud coming  link I provided,  you will learn the "nature" of Christ's return and the "timing" are confirmed in the historical apocalypse time the Bible records.

Offline Grappler

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Re: RAPTURE QUESTIONS
« Reply #104 on: Tue Dec 18, 2012 - 19:30:47 »
Preterism is far from sound doctrine, and I am willing to debate this subject with you to prove that it is built upon relying upon Josephus' wars of the Jews, than upon sound biblical interpretation.  All Preterist trust history above the scriptures and look to history to interpret the scriptures, instead of the word of God  being its own interpreter. 

Genesis 40:8

".....And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God?


Yes they do!  There are no biblical interpretations to be found in the "Wars of the Jews" by an Infidel named Josephus.  We need not to use "extra Biblical help" to understand the the holy scriptures, one only needs the Spirit of God dwelling within him.

So, if you like, then prove that Preterism is a system of sound doctrine.  I believe there is a section on this forum where we can debate one on one.  Start posting and I will address every point that you may have.


Amen brother
i 2nd that Amen!  But i am glad that they are around because they make me laugh...they can't even answer simple questions. ::giggle::