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Offline LaSpino3

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Rapture, tribulation debate
« on: Mon Dec 04, 2017 - 13:01:36 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

Obviously one of them is wrong. One comes from the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the other from man. Question, how can this issue be resolved?
Let’s start with the following:

Rom.12:2, “Be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, and acceptable and perfect, will of God.”
 
Let’s begin with what we do know. Who is it that will be caught up in the rapture? Answer,

1) 1 Thes.4:14, “For if we (Christian’s) believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

How will it happen?

2) 1 Thes.4:16, Both those who have died in the faith, and those “which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) together with them (those who had died) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so, shall we ever be with the Lord.”
 
I thing we can all agree on these two issues. Next issue, what do we know about the 1st half of the tribulation?

John gives us some inside information because of what the LORD showed him. He sees this open door in heaven, hears this voice that calls out to him, “Come up hither.”
John is taken through this open door to the Father’s throne. Question: How did this door get opened to the Father’s throne?

Jesus said, John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.”

John 10:7-9, Jesus said, “I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.”

“I am the door: by me if any man enter in he shall be saved;”
 
I believe John’s entry to the Father’s throne is a type, a proof from God, to us, that the saved will be with the Lord Jesus wherever He goes, even at the throne of his Father.

John sees the throne of the Father: he sees in the right hand of the Father a book that is sealed. He sees 7 Spirits (Rev.5:6); he sees the Lamb of God (Jesus) as he had been slain. He then sees Jesus take the book from his Father, then begins to open each seal.

John sees 4 horsemen riding 4 horses of different colors. He also sees under the alter (still on earth) saints crying out to God for revenge. They are given white robes and told,

Rev.6:11, that “They should rest (stay in their graves) for a little season until their fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” It was now that,
Rev.6:17, “the great day of his (God’s) wrath has come (arrived).” This sounds like the beginning of the tribulation.

But hold on, one of the 4 angels cry out,

Rev.7:3, “STOP” “hurt not the earth neither the sea, or the trees, until we seal the servants of our God in their foreheads.” This is to be done before the tribulation begins.
John hears the number to be sealed, 144,000. Twelve thousand from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, then each of the 12 tribes is called out by name. Then, immediately after the marking of the 144,000,

Rev.7:9, John sees, “A great multitude, which no man could number of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood (standing in heaven) before the (Father’s) throne and before the Lamb (Jesus), (they) clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands.”

Note; unlike the ones who are seen by John below the alter (saved Old Testament Jews) and told to wait, these standing before the throne of the Father, with Jesus himself are the “Bride of Christ.” Gentiles because they are of many languages and nations. They consist of Christians who for he past 2000 years believed by faith,  and who were found alive, and “caught up” into heaven, 1 Thes.4:16. It also appears John saw these things before the tribulation begins. 

What else do we know about the condition of things before the tribulation begins here on earth. We have seen there will be 144,000 Jews having the seal of God. Also, we read in Rev.11, John sees two men who are “standing before the God of the earth.”

We know they are flesh and blood, real people because,
1.   They can be hurt;
2.   They are standing outside of Jerusalem;
3.   Their called witnesses;
4.   They will prophesy for 1260 days (3 ½ years);
5.   They have been given power over anyone who attempts to hurt or kill them and power to retaliate against them in like manner.
6.    They will prophesy and testify of Jesus Christ.
7.   They will be killed;
8.   Their dead bodies will lie in the street for 3 ½ days;
9.   The world will rejoice over their death;
10.   They will be raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit;
11.   They will stand on their feet;
12.   They will hear a voice from heaven say “Come up hither, and they (will) ascend up into heaven in a cloud, and their enemies (will) behold them.”

These two witnesses begin to testify at the very beginning of the tribulation, and for the next 3 ½ years the two will continue to testify. After 3 ½ years they are killed, then raised into heaven. 

So, here is what we know to be true. Before the 7 years of tribulation begins, the 144,000 Jews representing the 12 tribes of Israel are given God’s mark, then sent out to preach the new covenant (Jer.31:31) to the world. Also, the two witnesses are set up outside of Jerusalem to confirm the same new covenant to the Jews. My understanding is, their testimony will also be that of the new covenant. And what is this new covenant?

Jer.31:31, “I (the LORD) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel (10 Northern tribes) and with the house of Judah (2 Southern tribes). Not according to the covenant that I made with their (the Jews) fathers --- which my covenant they brake, ---- But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. – I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts,--”. The old covenant was written on stone!

This new covenant is the same covenant Jesus was confirming during his 3 ½ year earthly ministry. Also at the time of the 2 witnesses, I believe unsaved Jews and Gentile’s will be warned of the vengeance of God that is about to come upon them.  The world will hate the two and cheer when they are killed by the 1st beast of Rev.13:1, who is given power (authority),

Rev.13:7, “(authority) was given unto him (1st beast) to make war with the (two) saints, and to overcome them: and (then) power (will be given) him (the beast) over all (the tribes), and (every) tongue, and (every) nation (on earth.)”
 
Remember, until these two saints were killed they had the authority from God to destroy any man, or any army of men who attempted to kill them; in other words, they will be the untouchables until after 3 ½ years are finished. 

One more thing I would like to cover, we are told about a mark that will be given to anyone who bows a knee to the beast. Also, those who do refuse to accept this mark will be, beheaded.

Paul wrote in Eph.2:8, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, unless any man should boast.”
Yes, we are told our faith is dead without works, but the work that verse speaks of is a work for the Lord, as in the spreading of the good news of the gospel to the world. What it isn’t is a work for our salvation, because Jesus saving work was finished, nothing to be added at the cross.

Two things concerning this satanic mark of 666,
1.   If you do not receive it you will be killed.
2.   If you do receive it, you will live.

My question is this; by not receiving the mark, and being killed for that work, is this not a form of self-sacrificing that a person can boast of before God?

Eph.2:9, “Not of (our own) works, unless any man should boast.” By not receiving the mark and being killed for that act, you can now go before God and brag of having earned, by your own work, a place for yourself in heaven. This would fly in the face of God’s saving grace by faith alone.

Conclusion: Best and worst-case scenario.
1st for those who say pre-trib: You are taken into heaven before God rains down his vengeance upon the Jews and the unbelieving world.

If incorrect, what would be the results? You will go through the tribulation, before being raptured.

But, for those who are post-trib rapture.
If this is correct, they will go through the tribulation, then be raptured. If they are wrong, hmmmmmm, they may miss out all-to-gather because of their unbelief.
Your thoughts, and please, no opinions that are not scriptural, my desk is full of them.

Laspino3

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Rapture, tribulation debate
« on: Mon Dec 04, 2017 - 13:01:36 »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 02:18:47 »
Who was Matthew 24 written to?
Where do you get the souls under the alter are on earth?
Do you understand what the mark and the seal is?

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 02:18:47 »

bond

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #2 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 05:27:31 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

There are more than two...at least two more off the top of my head, called mid-trib and pre-wrath.

But, for those who are post-trib rapture.
If this is correct, they will go through the tribulation, then be raptured. If they are wrong, hmmmmmm, they may miss out all-to-gather because of their unbelief.
Your thoughts, and please, no opinions that are not scriptural, my desk is full of them.

I'm sorry, but this is false.  Nobody will miss out on the rapture based on their eschatology.  The ONLY determination, will be whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.

===

On closing thought.  After Jesus comes to "catch away" his bride, it is too late for anyone left behind.  The Holy Spirit will be removed and there will be no more salvation...sooo...how are there Christians present during the tribulation if they are all raptured before it starts?
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 05:30:30 by bond »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 12:49:27 »
n2the light:

Answer: the Jews! Go back to Matt.23 and read everything Jesus had to say right to the end of Matthew 24.

Matt.23-24. Jesus is speaking to his disciples concerning the scribes and Pharisees. he speaks about the burdens they put on the people, how they love their feasts, how they love to be called Rabbi, Rabbi. He goes on to call them hyprocrites, calls them blind, fools, blind guides, etc. When he is finished He takes 3 disciples
up to the Mt. of Olives.

Now the 3 ask him a series of questions concerning the Temple, and when will he return to set up the kingdom for them. There is not one thing in either chapter that has anything to do with the Christian church or Gentiles, nothing!

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come in riding on a white horse, destroy their enemies, and set up the kingdom for them. They had absolutely no idea that 1980 + years would pass. What the Jews never understood was the idea of a suffering Messiah, and a Messiah who would be King of the Jews. They rejected Jesus, and today, they are waiting for their Messiah, and it's not Jesus. This is why when the beast comes during the tribulation, many Jews will think him to be the Jewish Messiah and so they will take his mark.

Phil



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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 12:49:27 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 13:11:39 »
Bond wrote, " Nobody will miss out on the rapture based on their eschatology.  The ONLY determination, will be whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.


Let's make sure were both in agreement as to what eschatology means: Eschatology the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

Now you wrote, we must accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Hmmm-- there are many denominations and cults who claim Jesus as their savior, but that belief stops at the cross, and does not include his burial and resurrection. Our salvation depends solely on his resurrection, because in resurrection, 1 Cor.15:54-55, "When this corruptible (body) shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (2ed death) is swallowed up in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?

Let's put this to the test, Paul teaches we must believe by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now let's compare what Paul has to say about the subject.

Rom.6:2, we are to be dead to sin, ver.3, baptized into Jesus Christ and baptized into his death, and ver.4, and because we are buried with him by baptism in death, like him we will be raised up (resurrected) from the dead by the glory of his Father.

Phil

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 13:11:39 »



bond

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #5 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 13:32:28 »
I don't play twenty questions, phil.  If someone says they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, I believe them.  It's not my place to judge the heart and I won't assume the role.

As for eschatology, if you want to use the Oxford Dictionary definition, I won't quibble over semantics.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #6 on: Wed Dec 06, 2017 - 11:20:18 »
Bond, went out with a lady many years ago who's name was "Semantic." The reason I broke up with her, she didn't have a very good handle concerning her foul language.

Phil


Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #7 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 02:24:47 »
@LaSpino3

Sooo we have scripture written to those who don't believe in Christ?
I thought scripture was written to all,guess according to you Im wrong

Okay.........

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #8 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 02:45:50 »
Take it I can just skip Matt 24 mark 13 and the book of Revelation

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #9 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 09:38:44 »
n2the light: you wrote, "Sooo we have scripture written to those who don't believe in Christ?
I thought scripture was written to all,guess according to you Im wrong."

Scriptures are written to all who desire to read and study them. Sure, a great deal of Scriptures were written to those Jews who had turned to idol worship, Jeremiah, Hosea, Isaiah, etc.  They were written to them as a warning of what would happen to them if they did not turn from idol worship. Take a look at the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and scribes. The way the leadership of these ancient Jews went, so did the people. But, these things were also written to believers for our own understand and learning, so we can understand what the consequences of sin, of saving grace, of judgment against the wicked, and of eternal life with the Lord for believers is all about. Every book in the Bible is written for every man, but every man dosn't read the Bible, and in this will they fall by the sword.

The LORD will one day bring the Jews around, but they have chosen to do it the hard way.

Read Ex.19:3-4-5, "You (Jews) have seen what I (God) did unto the Egypitans and how I bare you on eagles wings and brought you unto myself. Therefore if you (Jews) will obey my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people for all the earth is mine. Now here's the promise to the Jews from the LORD.

"You (Jews) shall (without doubt, one day) be unto me (the LORD Jesus) a kingdom of priests (all 12 tribes, not just the Levies) and a holy nation (Israel)."

One more thing, I never said to skip Matthew 24 or Mark 13. All I said is, they are written to the Jews, and not Gentile believers. And there is nothing stopping anyone from studying Jesus earthly ministry to the Jews, and what he spoke to them about.

Now concerning Matt. and Mark 13, Jesus is speaking to the three disciples on the Mt. of Olives. He is responding to the last two questions they had asked him. He said to them, "Take heed unless any man deceive you" Why? "Because many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ."

Now Jesus did not say "Many will come in my name saying I am Jesus Christ, they said, "I am Christ." The title of Messiah or Christ means, men will come to the Jews and claim to to their King, their Saviour. These will be mortal men who can be seen with the naked eye. Mohamet claimed to be Christ, the title the popes take Vicar of Christ, meaning, as long as Christ is gone they are the acting and speaking for Christ. Rev. Moon, and so many others have come in the past 1900 years claiming to be the Jewish Messiah.

The church is waiting for Jesus, the one with nail prints in his hand to take us out of here, this is "our blessed hope." We will know him when we see and hear him. As for now, the Jews yet reject Jesus as their Messiah, They are waiting for another Christ. And according to Revelation, it appears to be the beast, or antichrist, whatever you prefer, of Revelation.

Laspino3


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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #10 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 11:50:57 »
people can get so caught up ( pardon the pun ) in WHEN Jesus will return they miss the bigger picture.

The issue shouldn't be WHEN He will return but THAT He will return.

KiwiChristian

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #11 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 11:52:21 »
    THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST TO EARTH
 
Aim: 1. To summarise Bible teaching on the Second coming.

2.   To motivate Christians to fervently serve Christ in view of Christ’s return at any time and our accountability to Him.

A.    FACT OF CHRIST’S RETURN

   Jesus promised it (John 14:1-3). Angels promised it (Acts 1:8-11).
B.    WHEN WILL CHRIST RETURN

   No human or angel knows when (Matthew 24:36).
   We can, however, observe some signs in the world today indicating that Christ’s return may be near:

C.    SIGNS OF CHRIST’S RETURN

1.   Return of the Jews to the land of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14,21-28; Matthew 24:32,33; Joel 1:6,7)
2.   Rise of Russia as an anti-Israel power (Ezekiel 38-39).
3.   Rise of 10-nation revived Roman Empire in Europe (Daniel 2:40-44; 7:7-28, Revelations 13).
4.   Ability of man to destroy the earth (Revelations 11:18).
5.   Increase in travel and knowledge in the time of the end. (Daniel 12:4).
6.   Ecumenical movement including the World Council of Churches and Rome leading to a One-World religious system called “Mystery Babylon” in Revelations 17-18.
7.   One world money system (Revelations 13:16-18).

D.    WHY STUDY CHRIST’S SECOND COMING?

1.   About one quarter of the Bible refers to it.
2.   Christ taught it. (Matthew 24-25)
3.   It increases our desire to serve God in winning souls and making disciples, because Jesus may come today, requiring us to give account of our life to Him. (1 John 2:28; Matthew 24:42-44).
4.   God blesses those who read the prophecy of Revelation. (Revelation 1:3).
5.   It tells of ultimate victory for Christ and the believer, and his forces. This is why Satan doesn’t want us to study and teach it.
6.   It encourages us in our trials that the spiritual war will soon be over, guaranteeing us peace forevermore.

E.    WHAT ARE THE ORDER OF EVENTS IN GOD’S PROGRAM?
 
1.   THE CHURCH AGE from the Apostles (Ephesians 4:7-12) to the Rapture. The 7 Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 describe:
1)   Church periods that this age is divided into.
2)   Churches existing in John’s time.
3)   The spiritual condition of any church at any time.
4)   The spiritual condition of any believer at any time. When Jesus begins a parable with: “The Kingdom of heaven is like unto….” He is describing what the Church age or the outward form of Christendom will be like from Pentecost to the Rapture.

2.    RAPTURE is the catching away of all dead and living believers from earth to heaven. This occurs when Christ comes to the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54;
   11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 3:10; 4:1-2). This event ends the Church age. Then commences the 7 year Tribulation with the appearance of the Antichrist.
   The Rapture is the “blessed hope” of Titus 2:13 that believers are waiting for. Believers will be raptured before the Tribulation period, and will not pass through any of it because:

   1. We are looking for Christ to come (Titus 2:13). We are not looking for the Antichrist to confirm the covenant with Israel. (Daniel 9:27).
   2. Christ’s coming is called a “blessed hope” and the Tribulation is not a blessed hope to look forward to going through.
   3.  “God hath not appointed us to wrath . . .” (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
   4. The Church and John are raptured at Revelation 4:1,2 which is before the start of the Tribulation. (Revelation 6:1).
   5. The Tribulation is likened to Noah’s Flood and the Judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah where God spared the righteous. (Matthew 24:37).
   6. God promises to keep the Philadelphian Church from (out of) the Tribulation period (Revelation 3:10).
   7. If we are to be raptured midway or at the end of the Tribulation, we would know the day of Christ’s return, which no man knows. (Matthew 24:35).

3.    THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION is the greatest time of trouble that Jews or the world have ever seen. It is:
a)    Divided into 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials (bowl) judgments.
b)    Described in Revelation 6-18.
c)    Stated in Matthew 24:21-22 and Daniel 12:1.
d)    Ruled by the Antichrist (II Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 13; Daniel 7:19-27) from the 10 nation Revived Roman Empire in Europe.
e)    Lasts for 7 years. Daniel 9:27 (1 week means 1 group of seven years). In Matthew 24:21 the second half of the Tribulation is called the Great Tribulation. Revelation 11:1-3 states that it lasts 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days. It commences with the Antichrist placing the abomination of desolation in the rebuilt Temple at Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27) and the Antichrist persecuting the Jews.

4.   JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST occurs after believers are raptured. It takes place in heaven during the first half of the 7 year Tribulation period. The quality of a believer’s works after salvation are examined. He either receives rewards or suffers loss of rewards.

Are you living for Christ and eternity or for self and this life only? What does Christ think of you? What rewards or treasures have you laid up in heaven? (Matthew 6:19-21).
MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB (Revelation 19:7-10).

   The Church is known as the Bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:23-33).
   The marriage and marriage supper between Christ and all raptured saints occurs in heaven before Christ and His saints return to the earth for the Battle of Armageddon.

6.    SECOND COMING OF CHRIST TO EARTH

a)    He comes with the saved. (Zechariah 14:5).
b)    He comes with lightning speed. (Matthew 24:27-31).
c)    He comes exactly 2520 days (2 x 1260 days) after the rapture.

7.    BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON (Revelation 19:17-21; Zechariah 14:1-15).

a)    At the end of the 7 year Tribulation, the Antichrist and armies of all nations gather around Israel to destroy all Jews and to take Jerusalem. (Revelation 16:12-16).
b)    Christ and all the saved then return from heaven (Revelation 19:11-16).
   Christ defeats the armies of Antichrist instantly at the plain of Megiddo (Revelation 14:14-20). The geography is like a winepress, and blood flows three feet deep for 200 miles.

c)    After victory at Megiddo and Bozrah (Isaiah 63:1-6) Christ comes and stands on the Mount of Olives, which splits east-west (Zechariah 14:4). He then enters Jerusalem through the now closed East-Gate (Ezekiel 43:1,2).
d)    Christ will then be King over all the earth and the people that attacked Jerusalem will be plagued by what seems to be nuclear explosions, which will dissolve their flesh (Zechariah 14:12-15; Isaiah 24:5-6).

8.    JEWS ARE CONVERTED

a)    After being rescued by Christ following Armageddon, Jews notice the wounds in Christ’s hands and realise that their ancestors crucified their long-awaited Messiah. (Zechariah 13:6).
b)    This causes repentance and mourning, resulting in the Jewish people being saved by calling on Christ as their Saviour. (Zechariah 12:10 and 13:9).
c)    The Jews all over the earth are then regathered into Israel. (Isaiah 43:5-7 and Matthew 24:31).

9.    SATAN IS BOUND in the pit for 1000 years along with his angels. (Revelation 20:1-3).

10.    THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD ARE JUDGED according to how they treated God’s people during the Tribulation. The righteous (sheep) enter the Millennium, and the others (goats) enter everlasting fire. (Matthew 25:31-46).

11.    THE MILLENNIUM or 1000 year reign of Christ starts when Christ returns to the earth. What will this period be like?
a)    Christ will regather all Jews to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-7).
b)    Jerusalem becomes the world capital, from where Christ rules the earth in person
   (Isaiah 2:1-4).
c)    The Jews will become missionaries to the Gentiles (Isaiah 27:6; 61:6; Psalm 67:2).
d)    Christ builds the Millennial Temple (Zechariah 6:12-15).
e)    Animal creation will be changed (Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25).
f)    Humans will live much longer (Isaiah 65:20-22; Zechariah 8:4), as long as trees, possibly 1000 years as before the Flood.
g)    Peace and prosperity will characterise Christ’s rule (Isaiah 2:4) as will universal knowledge of the Lord and private ownership (Micah 4:1-4).

SATAN IS LOOSED from his prison after the 1000 years and deceives the unsaved of the nations to invade Jerusalem. Fire from God devours them and Satan is then cast into the lake of fire forever (Revelation 20:7-10).

13.    THE HEAVEN AND EARTH ARE THEN BURNT UP WITH FERVENT (NUCLEAR LIKE) HEAT (11 Peter 3:7-12).
14.    THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT of the unsaved occurs where all the unsaved people are taken from hell and given immortal, resurrected bodies. This is the second resurrection or tare judgment. (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43).
   They are then judged according to their works. Since the works that they have trusted in to gain God’s acceptance fall short of Christ’s perfect works, they are all cast alive into the.....

15.    LAKE OF FIRE where they are tormented forever (Revelation 20:11-15).

16.    ETERNITY then commences with a new heaven and new earth, as well as the New Jerusalem (1500 miles long, broad and high) coming down from God as the residence of the church (us) forever. (Revelation 21:22).

KiwiChristian

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #12 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 11:55:09 »
49. THE RAPTURE

Jesus Christ’s Second Coming for the Church

Bible Reading: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 14:2,3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Titus 2:13; Rev. 4:1,2.

Aim: To comfort and motivate one another with the truth of Christ’s return to take us to heaven.

Introduction: Jesus Christ’s return will be in two stages. One for His bride the Church, known as the “catching away” or “rapture”. (1 Thess. 4:13-18). The rapture will be followed by a seven year period known as the Tribulation. This will begin with the Antichrist from Europe making a treaty with Israel and breaking it after three-and-a-half years. The last three-and-a half years of the Antichrist’s reign will be the Great Tribulation spoken of by Christ in Matthew 24:21. This will be followed by the second stage of Christ returning to earth with believers to rule the world in righteousness. Zech 14:1-5; Jude 14

Definition: The term “rapture” comes from the Latin word for “caught up” in I Thessalonians 4:17. Before the seven year tribulation, Christ will descend from heaven, and catch up the Church to heaven to be with Himself. The Tribulation will then be unleashed on an unbelieving world.

The Scriptures teaching the “catching away” are as follows:

a) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” I Thessalonians 4:16-18.

b)   Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you (v.2). And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14: 2,3.
c)   “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and…must put on immortality.” I Cor. 15:51-53
d)   “Looking for that blessed hope (rapture), and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:13.
e)   John experienced the rapture: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me: which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter…And immediately…..in heaven.” Revelation 4:1,2.

We may summarise the main events of the rapture from I Thessalonians 4:6-17, as follows:
i)   One day, Jesus Christ will descend from heaven and we will hear a shout, a voice and a trumpet.
ii)   All dead believer’s bodies will be resurrected to rejoin their spirits and souls in the air. iii)All living believers will receive resurrection bodies, and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
 

iv)We will receive immortal, resurrection bodies, a place Christ has prepared for us in heaven, comfort forever in the presence of Christ, and rewards promised in 2 Corinthians 5:10.

The rapture is called a comfort and a blessed hope. Notice several things about the rapture. 1. Rapidity of the Rapture = Immediately (I Corinthians 15:51,52).

“we shall all be changed in a moment (Greek: atomos 823),in the twinkling (Gk: rhipe 4493) of an eye.”
The speed with which the rapture will occur is described by these two Greek words which mean:
a) “atomos” = without a cut, indivisible. This is the word from which “atom” is derived, meaning “that which cannot be divided.” When referring to time it means “an indivisibly small instant of time; a point of time which cannot be divided.” It means “immediately.” b)“rhipe” = a quick motion, such as a fling or toss. A blink, wink, jerk, or twinkle of an eye. The least duration of time. People will not have time to call on Christ for salvation, or to do what they planned.
Believers must serve Christ now so that we won’t be ashamed at His coming. (I John 2:28).

2. Reason For The Rapture = To keep the Church out of the Tribulation.

The Church will be caught out of the world to be kept from the 7 year Tribulation period. The rapture will be as unexpected as a thief in the night. (I Thess.5:2-4). “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation wrath) by our Lord Jesus Christ.”I Thessalonians 5:9. Christ said to the faithful, Bible-loving Philadelphian church, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (Greek: ‘ek’ = out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them which dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).

Christ will spare His bride from going through the wars, famines, Antichrist’s persecutions, earthquakes, and other judgments that will come on an unbelieving world.
The purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel and unbelieving nations to repentance (Rev. 9:18-21). In Revelation 6:8, 25% of the world’s population are killed.
In Revelation 9:18, 33% of the rest are killed. This leaves only 50% of the world’s population alive.

3. Requirement to be Raptured

Only those who have been saved by calling on Christ to save them from their sins, will be raptured. “The dead in Christ shall rise first.” (I Thessalonians 4:16).
“we (all living believers) which are alive and remain shall be caught up….” (v.17). Q: Are you trusting Jesus Christ to save you, or your good works to gain God’s acceptance?

Some people in this room may be left behind if Jesus Christ returned today.
Q: Would you be taken to be with Christ, or would you be left behind to enter the 7 year Tribulation?

Can you imagine what it would be like to be left behind?

a)   You phone your Christian friends, and they are nowhere to be found.
b)   The newspapers and television report millions of missing people.
c)   Many driverless cars will have crashed on the roadside.
d)   People will panic about their missing family and friends. They will demand an explanation. Was it the rapture predicted in the Bible? Antichrist will offer a false yet plausible explanation that many will believe (2 Thess. 2:8-12), maybe that UFOs took Christians who were resisting the new world order.
 
Q: Will you be saved and taken, or lost and left behind? Receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour today.

4. Rewards after the Rapture.

Following the rapture, all Christians will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10,12; 1 Cor. 3:10-15) to receive rewards according to the quality of our service to Christ after salvation. Some Christians will suffer loss of rewards that they could have earned. (1 Cor. 3:15).
“every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” (I Corinthians 3:8).

Q: Will you win rewards, or will you lose rewards?

5. Revelation of the Sons of God.

When Christ appears, we shall be just like Him, even though we may now appear unattractive and unimportant. We will have a glorious, immortal body just like Jesus Christ has now.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2.

“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” Romans 8:18,19.

God has predestined every believer to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. (Romans 8:29)

6. Our Response to the Rapture.

‘And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself (sanctification), even as he is pure.’1 John 3:3

Question: How should we now live? If we knew we’d be “caught up” next year, we should:

a)   Live pleasing to God by reading/studying the Bible, and praying daily.
b)   Learn How to win people to Christ so they’ll be caught up to heaven and won’t go through the Tribulation. Pastors should conduct a soul-winning training session this week. We want to rejoice with people in heaven who we have led to Christ on earth. We only have a short time to do soul-winning. We are in a war for eternal souls now. Don’t be lazy, but get busy rescuing people from hell. After the rapture you’ll have no chance to pluck people from hell. You’ll never see your unsaved family and friends again. You can rest forever in eternity, but now is the time to win souls to Christ.
a)   Confess and Forsake any known sins. 1 John 1:9.
b)   Dedicate your life wholeheartedly and completely to winning souls and serving Jesus Christ.

7. “Be ye also Ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.” (Matthew 24:44).
“Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.” Ephesians 5:16.

Conclusion: Are you ready to face Christ? Are you saved? Are you winning souls daily or weekly?

Is there any known sin in your life that you need to confess and forsake? Do so today.

bond

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #13 on: Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 15:35:17 »
Rapture is a transliteration of the Latin word "Rapturo."  Rapturo is a direct translation of the Greek word "Harpazo."

People usually get caught up (two can play at that game ::noworries::) because the word "rapture" is not in English translations of the Bible, but it means "caught up," a phrase which IS in the Bible and denotes the rapture.

Rapture, Rapturo, Harpazo, they all mean "caught up" which is in the Bible and describes Christ coming for His Bride, the Church.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 02:10:37 »
@  LaSpino3

Can you show me anywhere in all of scripture where Christ returns before the tribulation?

There are only 2 advents in scripture,no in between..

As for Matt and Mark,you telling me they were written for those(Jews)who don't even believe in Christ,so at what point do they read it.

Why are rapturist scared of the tribualation?

Did not Christ sat will shall all have tribulation

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Did He also say to endure till the end?
When is the end?

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #15 on: Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 19:24:17 »
n2thelight:
Concerning your 1st question. Read 1 Thes.5. It's to the unbelievers that the Lord will come as a thief in the night, not his bride. The Lord said the fallen will be saying "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction will come on them" "And they will not escape. 1 Thes.5:9, "For God has not appointed us (Christian's) to wrath."

After Revelation 3, there is absolutely no mention of the Christian church.

When Jesus comes for his church we are told, "we will meet him in the air.

Compare the differences between Zech.14:4, "For i will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city (Jerusalem) shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half the city shall go foth into captivity, and the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth against those nations as when he fought in the day of battle (during David's reign). And his feet shall stand in that day (end days) upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem -------- and the mount of Olives shall cleave (split in two) in the midst thereof toward the east ------."

On top of that, Millions of the enemy are going to be killed in the battle of Megiddo by the LORD.

Read Isa.63 where the LORD comes from Edom (today's Jordon) with blood on his garments, and he said, Verse 5, "There was no one to help"
Ver.4, "For the day of (his) vengeance is in His heart (against his enemies) and the year of my redeemed is come." Redeemed here point to those who are restored, brought back. This can only apply to the Jews because the Christian church has never been lost therefore they don't have to be restored.

That's only part of my case, and there's so much more.
Phil

bond

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #16 on: Sat Dec 09, 2017 - 14:18:24 »
sigh...phil...why do you always ignore scriptures that counter your claims?

Quote from: 1 Thess 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Also, will you answer my question about how there can be Christians during the Tribulation when after Christ returns, no one else will be saved (Matt 25)?

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #17 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 10:04:40 »
Bond, sigh, Bond, why do you ignore the difference between how the Lord is dealing with the Jewish people and how he deals with his bride? As long as you continue to confuse the two in your blender, it will remain a mystery to you. It's not that you can't understand, it's because you don't want to. The 4 gospel's ended 40 days after the cross in 30 A.D., THAT INCLUDES ALL OF Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

One more time, Matt. Mark, Luke and John were written to the Jews and their account ended in 30 A.D. The "gospel to the Gentiles (the church) did not begin until Paul came out of the desert in 37 A.D., and until the mystery of the resurrection was revealed to the church by Paul in 56 or 57 A.D., see 1 Cor.15:51, "Behold, I show you a mystery---," What's a mystery? A mystery is a thing that is hid in God until he reveals it to man, that happened in 57 A.D.

So the question to you is "How in the world could Matt. Mark, Luke or John know about the resurrection and the rapture when their gospel account ends in 30 A.D.? And the to mysteries of resurrection and rapture were not revealed until 50 or 51 A.D., and  the other in 57 A.D.? 

And concerning the rapture of the church that was revealed in 51 A.D. by Paul in 1 Thes.4:13. Paul is speaking to the church, not the unsaved Jews, he writes, "I would not have you to be IGNORNT, brethren (brothers in Christ) concerning ----the catching away (RAPTURE) of the bride of Christ to meet the LORD in the AIR.

This was also a secret hid in God until He revealed it to Paul.......

If you don't get it, sorry!

Phil

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #18 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 10:44:34 »
LaSpino3, sigh, LaSpino3, why do you say there is difference between how the Lord is dealing with the Jewish people and how he deals with his bride? As long as you continue to divide the two in your blender, it will remain a mystery to you.

Fixed.


The Dual Covenant Gospel of the Race versus Grace is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #19 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 17:44:45 »
TonkaTim, study Paul's epistles carefully, then compare them carefully with Christ teaching during his earthly ministry.

It's in there, all you have to do is be open minded and study carefully. Begin with 1 Cor.15.1-2-3-4. Note key words used by Paul, 'the gospel"; the one Paul preached to the church, not the Jews: that which he received, not the 12; "Paul's gospel" to the Church is, "That Christ died for their sins", that he was 'buried;" and that "he rose again the third day."

If you find any of the above in the 4 gospels, let me know. The apostles never knew about the Gentiles being given the Holy Spirit until some 21 years after the cross. The Jews gospel was that Jesus was to come, destroy the Jews enemies, set himself up as King of the Jews, and establish His Kingdom in the promised land, on the Temple Mount. God made a promise to Abraham concerning the land covenant, and that the Jews would be a pecular people to him.  All the land promised to Abraham was from Jordon, to the Euphrates and the great sea, much larger than it is today. It is also written a new Temple will be built, Jesus was to rule from there, the Jews would be priests of Jesus, go to the gentile nations and bring them to the Lord in Israel; that's the gospel that was preached to the Jews. But they would have had received Jesus as their Messiah, then the kingdom.

Read Gal.1, how the Jews were trying to tell converted Jews that they had to be circumcised and keep every aspect of the law. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, unlike the 12 who were apostles to the Jews only.

Think, if they all taught the same gospel why did the Lord tell the 12 not to go to the Gentiles, and then 21 years later Paul and Peter shook hands and agreed that the 12 would go only to the Jews, and Paul would go only to the Gentiles?

Phil

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #20 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 18:46:11 »
TonkaTim, study Paul's epistles carefully

In Acts 10 Why did Peter go to a 'gentile'?

And,
Galatians? They were Christians who were being Judaized.  The very reason Paul begins the letter:

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."



Even Peter had been cowed by Judaizers. If Peter & Paul preached a different gospel why did Paul have to admonish Peter & not praise him for preaching a "judaized gospel"to the "jews"?:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

There is only one gospel & it was preached from the beginning even Peter preached it at Pentecost:
"38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call

The doctrine of Jesus Christ is to preach the message of Christ as commanded by Christ to all nations, no exceptions;
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
That command of our Lord was given to the 11 & is for all of us.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the same for all who will believe. No distinction, no exceptions. It is explained by Paul eloquently in Ephesians 2:
One in Christ

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

That is not difficult to understand. One gospel, one new people, united in Christ.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 19:46:54 »
The Jews gospel was that Jesus was to come, destroy the Jews enemies, set himself up as King of the Jews, and establish His Kingdom in the promised land, on the Temple Mount. God made a promise to Abraham concerning the land covenant, and that the Jews would be a pecular people to him.  All the land promised to Abraham was from Jordon, to the Euphrates and the great sea, much larger than it is today. It is also written a new Temple will be built, Jesus was to rule from there, the Jews would be priests of Jesus, go to the gentile nations and bring them to the Lord in Israel; that's the gospel that was preached to the Jews. But they would have had received Jesus as their Messiah, then the kingdom.

That might be the gospel of the 'Jews' but it is a false gospel.


As far as an earthly fulfillment of land promises they were fulfilled just as the Bible says:
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. 44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

These early fulfillments are types & shadows to the greater promises, of the true promised land, the new heavens & the new earth.

Why Paul when he wrote to the Hebrews he explained Abraham "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God"

In that same letter to the Hebrews Paul explained about that city:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,"

That is true Zionism looking towards " the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" not a carnal earthly city bound by ritual, animal sacrifice, & the old.


Paul is clear on that too in Galatians 4:
"22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

The Gospel of Jesus Christ promises this. It was even promised to David in the Davidic Covenant. In 2 Samuel 10 & 1 Chronicles 17 we find God not only giving David the promise of the coming Christ through his line, the promise that Christ would build the true temple, which are the children of God in whom God dwells. But also he promised David of another place. God is telling the King of Israel, in the land of Israel that:
"I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more"

A place they move no more, a place without the wicked. There is only one place like that. Heavenly Jerusalem, the very City of God.

Jesus told us of this place: "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"

Even Peter taught this as well: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."



Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #22 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 03:51:37 »
What the heck is a gospel of the Jew's?I mean dang,most of them don't believe in Christ,so do tell,when do they read His Word????????

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #23 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 04:24:14 »
People keep talking this foolishness about the Jew's being God's chosen people.That's the biggest lie that's ever been told,followed real close with this false rapture teaching.

Who is Israel? Who is the Church?
Lorraine Day, M.D.


The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament prophets and having no connection with God's promises of an earthly kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.

'While there are differences of opinion among Christian scholars who teach about Bible prophecy, the majority firmly believe the following five events have been definitely predicted by God to occur before the second coming of Jesus Christ:

(1) The rebirth of the state of Israel in 1948
(2) A soon coming "Seven Year Period of Great Tribulation"
(3) The rebuilding of the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount inside Jerusalem
(4) The rise of a mysterious man, the Antichrist, who will enter this rebuilt Jewish temple, proclaiming himself as God
(5) A final war against the nation of Israel, resulting in a Middle East battle of Armageddon" Exploding the Israel deception, Steve Wohlberg, pg 9.

They further believe that the "Israel" of the New Testament is the present-day literal nation of Israel even though most Jews are atheists and the other Jews, who are religious, do not believe in Jesus.

Let's look at Israel in 1) The Old Testament, 2) The New Testament, and in 3) Revelation.


What does the name Israel mean? Who first spoke the name?

Jacob, the son of Isaac and brother of Esau, was returning to his homeland after years of hiding in a far country for fear of his brother's revenge. Jacob, many years before, had stolen Esau's blessing by deceiving their father, and Esau had vowed to kill him. The name Jacob means supplanter (plotter or deceiver) which described Jacob's true character in his early life. But he had spent most of his adult life reaping what he had sown as others continued to deceive him. Eventually his heart was changed and so was his character.

Now, on his return to his homeland, it's nighttime. He has heard that his brother is coming after him with a large band of men, to kill him. Jacob is afraid for himself and his family. He sends his wives and children ahead and stays alone. Suddenly, in the middle of the night, he is approached by a ferocious stranger who attacks him in hand to hand combat. Jacob, undoubtedly thinking that his brother has found him, fights for his life. But after a time of struggling, the stranger touches Jacob's hip causing great pain. Jacob's hip is dislocated. The pain is excruciating.

Jacob now realizes that this Being is supernatural, and he hangs on pleading for a blessing. The "Angel" asks, "What is your name." (Of course, the angel already knows Jacob's name. He just wants him to say it.) When Jacob states his name, he is admitting that he is a deceiver. He has made confession for, and repented from, his years of deceit and his life course has been changed. His character has changed!

The "Angel" responds, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel (Prince with God); for you have struggled with God and with man and have prevailed."

The name "Israel" was a Spiritual name. It symbolized Jacob's spiritual victory over a life of deception. The human being, Jacob, a natural man, had now been given a spiritual name, "Israel", meaning "Overcomer."

Israel (formerly called Jacob) and his sons moved to Egypt because of a famine in the land of Caanan. Another one of Israel's sons, Joseph, had been sold into slavery by his brothers years before, but now Joseph had been elevated to the leader of Egypt, only surpassed by the Pharoah.


OLD TESTAMENT

JACOB HAS HIS NAME CHANGED TO "ISRAEL"

The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing, the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob, but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed."

So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name. Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his character. The name Jacob means deceiver. So the name change symbolizes his transformation in CHARACTER.


"ISRAEL'S" (JACOB'S) SONS ARE ALSO CALLED ISRAEL-ITES (Heirs of Israel)


The Children of Israel went into Egypt

Ex. 1:1 "Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob." And then the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) are named. These are the literal "children of Israel" (children of Jacob) who went into Egypt.

Israel is called "My son, My firstborn"

Ex 4:21,22 "And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Vs 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, 'Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn. . . "

NOTE: The whole NATION is NOW called "Israel," not just Jacob (Israel).


The nation of Israel is called a "vine."

Ps 80:8 "Thou has brought a vine out of Egypt; thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it."


The nation of Israel is called a "servant."

Isa 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend."

Isa 49:3 "And said unto me, 'Thou art My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Isa 42:1-3 "Behold My servant . . . " This chapter outlines God's original plan for Israel which they failed to follow.

* * * * * Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt."

NOTE: The Nation of "Israel" is called:

1) "My son",
2) a "vine",
3) the "seed of Abraham",
4) God's "servant", and
5) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."



NOTE ALSO: Joseph (whose father was JACOB/ISRAEL) had dreams and went into Egypt.


NEW TESTAMENT


Matt 1:1 "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ. . . "

The New Testament is about Jesus Christ - NOT about Israel!


Joseph, the earthly "father" of Jesus, also had a father named Jacob (Matt 1:16). Joseph also had a dream and went into Egypt.

Matt 2:13 "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, 'Arise, and take the young child and His mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy Him."

Matt 2:15 "And (he) was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying "Out of Egypt have I called My son."

* * * * * This New Testament text (Matt 2:15), is a DIRECT QUOTE of Hosea 11:1, which was originally spoken of the Nation of Israel, but NOW it refers to Christ as the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy of the Hosea text.

Jesus is NOW the NEW "Israel." The prophecy is FULFILLED in Jesus!


"BAPTISM"

Israel came out of Egypt and was "baptized" in the Red Sea

1 Cor 10: 1,2 Paul is speaking, "Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

Jesus came out of Egypt and was baptized in the Jordan.

Matt 3:16 "And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him.


INTO THE WILDERNESS

Israel, after being "baptized" in the Red Sea, went into the wilderness for 40 years

Jesus, after being baptized, went into the wilderness for 40 days. (Matt 4:1)

In the wilderness Jesus was tempted THREE times. Each time He responded to Satan with a text. ALL three texts that He quoted, are from the book of Deuteronomy, the book given to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness: Deut 8:3, Deut 6:16, Deut 6:13.

Jesus is REPEATING the history of Israel. Jesus, the NEW "Israel", is overcoming where the nation of Israel had failed!


Israel:

When God brought Israel out of Egypt, they were brought to a mountain, Mt. Sinai, where God gives them the law.

Christ:

Matt 5: After Jesus had been in the wilderness, He goes to a mountain to teach the beatitudes - a practical explanation of the law.


Israel:

God made a covenant with the twelve tribes with the blood of animals.

Christ:

Matt 26:28 Jesus meets with the 12 apostles and makes a NEW covenant with His OWN blood - a New covenant with a NEW Israel.

Matt 12:15-18 "Behold my servant..." This Old Testament passage applied to Israel, but now it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

John 15:1 Jesus said, "I am the TRUE VINE.

Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT 'And to seeds, as of many, but as of ONE, and to thy SEED which is Christ."

Jesus is called:

1) "My Son" 2 Peter 1:17
2) The "vine" John 15:1
3) the "seed of Abraham" Gal 3:16
4) "servant" Matt 12:15-18
5) "My Son" God "brought out of Egypt" Matt 2:15


"Israel" was one man, and his heirs became the nation of "Israel".

Jesus (Israel) is one Man, then His heirs are ALSO Israel.

Jesus' followers (those in Christ), now become the New Testament Spiritual Israel. "If you are Abraham's seed, then you are heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29

Gal 3:29 "So if you be Christ's THEN are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."


The name Israel, was expanded to include all of Israel's (formerly called Jacob) offspring. And as his descendants increased, they became a nation - the nation of the same family name - - - Israel. God called this new nation of Israel, "My son. . . My firstborn."

Steve Wohlberg, in his excellent book Exploding The Israel Deception, points out the many parallels between the history of Israel and the history of Jesus Christ. In Hosea 11:1, the prophet writes, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew declares this text "fulfilled" in Jesus (Matt 2:15)

**When God called Israel out of Egypt, He called the nation "My son." Ex 4:22. When Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt I have called My Son."

**When Israel left Egypt, they were "baptized" by crossing the Red Sea - then they spent 40 years in the wilderness. When Jesus began His ministry, He was baptized, then immediately went into the wilderness for 40 days.

In the Gospel of Matthew, "Jesus is repeating the history of Israel, point by point, and is overcoming where they failed. Jesus becomes the new Israel, the one victorious Man who overcomes all sin." (Wohlberg, pg 21)

In Galatians 3:16, Paul wrote, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Paul explains that Abraham's seed does not refer to "many," seeds, but to "One, . . . which is Christ." Paul is opening our minds to realize that what originally applied to the nation of Israel is now applied to Jesus Christ. The Messiah is now the "seed." Therefore, Jesus Christ is "Israel!"

But as, in the Old Testament, the name Israel was first applied to one man - and then to his offspring, so in the New Testament the same principle applies. "The seed" is Christ, and Paul then tells his Gentile converts "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed." Gal 3:29.

So the name "Israel" not only applies to the True Seed, Jesus Christ, but also the believers in Jesus become part of "the seed." The true Christians are now God's Spiritual Israel.

Paul continues to drive this point home throughout his writings. In Gal 3:6,7, he wrote, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

"Behold, thou art called Jew, and you rest in the law and make your boast of God." "For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision (the Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?" "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Roman 2:17,25,26,28,29

Paul is saying that if one only has the outward appearance of being religious without being changed in the heart, then the circumcision of the Jew means nothing.





Two Israels


Romans 9:3-8: There are two Israels in the New Testament.

A) Vs 3 & 4: "Israelites according to the flesh and

B) Vs 6 & 7: For they are NOT all Israel (of God in Jesus Christ) which are of Israel (some who DON'T have the disposition of Christ), neither because they are seed of Abraham, are they all children (even if they are direct blood descendants of Abraham, it doesn't make them "children" of Abraham.)

C) Vs 8: That is they which are the children of the flesh (literal nation of Israel), these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise (who have faith in Jesus Christ) are counted as the seed." (This means ALL who truly believe in Jesus Christ, whether they are a Jew or a Gentile makes no difference, it all depends on their spiritual belief in Jesus Christ. If they believe in Jesus Christ, they are children of Abraham!)


Question: Which "Israel" is Revelation referring to in which the promises will be fulfilled?

Rev 11:8 ". . . . spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified (Spiritual Jerusalem.)

Rev 11:19 ". . . temple of God was opened in HEAVEN - Ark of His Testament inside (law of God)."

Rev 7:4 144,000 of tribes of children of Israel
Rev 14:1 144,000 standing on Mt Zion.

Hebrews 12:22,23 Mt Zion - " . . . the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem." ". . . church of the firstborn on Mt Zion."

Rev 21:10 "Carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

Rev 16:12 River Euphrates dried up. (Babylon's support system will dry up, the people that support deceptions of spiritual Babylon) preparing the way for the Kings of the east.

Rev 16:16 Armageddon, a Spiritual war between the followers of Christ and the followers of the Beast power and Satan.

Rev 17:1,3,5 Spiritual Babylon

Rev 17:15 Waters (symbolic for) = people

Rev 11:19 Temple of God opened in heaven - ark of Testament seen

Rev 14:9 3rd angel

Rev 14:12 Keep Commandments of God

Rev 16:13 3 unclean (counterfeit) spirits of devils like frogs.

Rev 16:14-16 3rd frog (false prophet) manifestation of false prophet - counterfeit 3rd angel's message. False prophet = false prophecy ". . . go to the WHOLE WORLD to gather them to battle of the great day of God Almighty."

Rev 16:17 Heavenly temple - - - NOT earthly temple

Rev 16:19 3 parts: dragon, beast and the false prophets

Rev 16:15,16 "watch" out for deceptions. Keeps his garments (symbolic for) . . . (righteousness of Jesus).

These are ALL spiritual terms, showing a SPIRITUAL Israel, NOT a literal Israel.

Here is the KEY: 1 Cor 15:46,47: "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


The first man is of the earth, earthly: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Explanation: The FIRST is natural or the physical representation. And the SECOND is the Spiritual.

The Old Testament is, in general, the description of the physical events that actually took place.

The New Testament is the SPIRITUAL reality of what the physical Old Testament illustrations looked forward to.



The Old Testament testifies of JESUS - Jesus says so HIMSELF!

How can ANYONE be a "New Testament Christian" and disregard the

Old Testament, when Jesus says the Old Testament is about HIM?


NOTE: Jesus does NOT say that the Old Testament is about Israel!


John 5:39, 40 (NIV) Jesus said, "You diligently search (study) the Scriptures because you think that in THEM you possess eternal life. (But) these are the Scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."

Jesus was talking about the Old Testament Scriptures! Those were the ONLY Scriptures available when Jesus was on the earth. "The Old Testament speaks about ME," Jesus said. That is the ONLY focus of the Scriptures. The Scriptures, including the Old Testament, only have meaning when referring to Christ, the Messiah.

The Old Testament is CHRIST-CENTERED! NOT Israel-Centered!

The Old Testament must ONLY be interpreted in a Christ-centered manner.

Jesus said, "More than Jonah is here, more than Solomon is here, more than the Temple is here." The whole Old Testament points to Christ, to His fulfilling the Messianic prophecies.

Zephaniah 3: 9, 12,13. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples (everyone), that ALL of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve Him shoulder to shoulder...

"But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the Lord. The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid."

Joel 2:18-32 (NIV)

"And afterward, I will pour out my spirit on ALL people....And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls."

Gen 12: "ALL people will be blessed through Abraham." Abraham was called out of Babylon. ALL people have been blessed through Jesus who came through the line of Abraham.


This is a WORLD-WIDE plan, NOT a plan just for one group of people!



Rev. 6: Describes End time events, centering in the Judgement.

Rev 6:12 - 17 - Six Seals.

vs 14: "The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Then the KINGS OF THE EARTH, (meaning Universal - worldwide) the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us' and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (They are afraid) For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (They think NO ONE can stand, because they are afraid and they are the leaders.)

Rev 7: 4 "And I HEARD the number of those who were sealed; 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (John did not SEE the number, he HEARD the number)

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000 ...

After this I LOOKED and there before me was a GREAT MULTITUDE that no one could count, from EVERY NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

John HEARS the number of 144,000, but he SEES a GREAT MULTITUDE that no man could count. The number 144,000 is NOT literal, it is symbolic for a Great Multitude that no one can count.

(The 144,000 AND "the great multitude that no one could count" are the SAME.)

(The 144,000 are NOT Jews - they are from ALL nations, tribes, peoples and languages.)


Rev 1:10-12 ("I heard - then I turned around to see...") What John sees is a further explanation of what he hears.

Rev 5:2: And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?"

Vs 5: " Then one of the elders said to me (I heard), "Do not weep! SEE, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

Then I SAW a Lamb looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders." (The Lion and the Lamb are the same.)

CONCLUSION: What John sees is an explanation of what he first hears. He hears about the Lion, but he SEES the Lamb. (The Lion and the Lamb are the same.)

By the way, all of these terms in Revelation are from the Old Testament:

Lamb (from the sanctuary)

Lion (from the tribe of Judah)

Israel = the Israel of Christ, Matt 16:16-18 (How does God call His own people?)

When Jesus asked His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus said, "FLESH AND BLOOD HAS NOT TOLD YOU THIS." (This has NOT been a revelation from man, from a church, but it has been a direct revelation from God to you.) Jesus continued, "On this rock (this doctrine) I will build my CHURCH." "On THIS Rock - the doctrine that GOD will be our teacher rather than organized denominations and churches.


The Israel of the Old Testament has now been replaced by the "Church" (ecclesia = the called ones) of the New Testament.

Literalism would make the "Lamb" in Revelation, literal. But the "Lamb" is Christ. The Lamb is symbolic.

And the 144,000 are NOT Jews, they are from "ALL nations."

All of this must be interpreted in relation to Christ.

The interpretation must go "through the Cross" and when it does, it leaves all the geographic and ethnic restrictions in the Cross, and they become all spiritual, universal, world-wide terms.

Revelation is FULL of Old Testament terms: Jezebel, Baalam, Babylon. But these terms which were LITERAL in the Old Testament, are NOW SPIRITUAL in the New Testament!

Mt. Zion:

Hebrews 12: 18 "You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words, that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded... (This is talking about Mt. Sinai where the Ten Commandments were given).

Vs 22-24: "But you have come to (a better mountain) Mount Zion, to the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the CHURCH of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God... to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." (Abel's blood speaks of revenge, but Christ's blood speaks of reconciliation.)

"Mt. Zion" means salvation.

Christ incorporates the whole human race because He is the second Adam, the human father of the whole human race.


Revelation corresponds to Genesis: There is Paradise, the Tree of Life, the River.

We understand the Old Testament THROUGH the New Testament.

Christ is NOT Jewish, He is Divine! He is God! "He is the Saviour of ALL mankind."


Jesus is gathering us to HIM. "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL to ME!" They will NOT be drawn to Palestine - or to the Temple - or to Jerusalem - - - but to JESUS!




Jews and Gentiles: What do the terms mean?



Let's stop right here and discuss the terms "Jew" and "Gentile." I'm sure you will be astonished to learn that NEITHER of these terms EVER appears in the Bible, in the original Scriptures. These are actually propaganda words placed there by the translators to support their own preconceived theological ideas.

Let me give you the documentation for this statement.


The word "JEW" NEVER appears in the Original Scriptures

The word "Jew."

Look in a Concordance, Strong's Concordance is a popular, commonly used one. The word "Jew" (#2453 in the Greek) is actually short for the word Judean, or more accurately Ioudas, pronounced ee-oo-dah-yos. The letter "J" is not present in the New Testament Greek alphabet. The English alphabet had no "J" prior to the 14th century, and it wasn't predominantly used until the 17th century.

Since the word "Jew" is an English concoction that did not exist at the time of the writing of the New Testament, we know that it actually is the word "Judean."

The King James Bible in 1611, for example, used the word Iudea, not our present "Judea", and it was pronounced you-dee-a.

So the word "Jew" is short for the word "Judean", meaning a resident of a particular area - Judea, the southern part of Canaan, later known as Palestine. Jerusalem was in Judea, and the temple was in Jerusalem. The word "Jew" did NOT mean an ethnic background.

The English word Jew evolved phonetically from the prefix 'Iou, from the Greek word 'Ioudas which means Judean.

Judea is the same as Judah, and Judah was the tribe of Israel that inhabited that geographical area when the twelve tribes conquered the inhabitants of Canaan about 1400 B.C. The Tribe of Judah was the largest of the twelve and the most influential. God said that the Messiah would come through that Tribe.

The word "Judean" (later shortened to "Jew) MEANS -
those who had knowledge of the God of heaven.

In addition, study of the Scriptures, particularly the Old Testament, makes it clear that the designation "Judean" or "Ioudas" refers to those who had a knowledge of the God of heaven, as opposed to those who had NO knowledge of the God of heaven or those who worshiped pagan gods, referred to as the "Nations."

The word "Gentiles."

Now look up the word "Nations" in the Greek (#1484) and the Hebrew (#1471). Now look up the word "Gentiles." You will see that the numbers are identical to the word "Nations" both in the Greek (#1484) and in the Hebrew (#1471).

This shows that the Bible translators used the word "Gentiles" at their own arbitrary discretion, when it would have a theological or sociological impact, rather than using the word "Nations" in every instance, as unbiased translation would dictate. There is NO instance in the Bible, where the word "Gentiles" is appropriate. The word should ALWAYS be "Nations."

The Hebrew word (#1471) translated "Nations" or sometimes "Gentiles", is the word "goy" or "goyim", a present-day derogatory term used by Jews to describe non-Jews, and means a troop of lowly animals, such as cattle, or a heathen people.

Isa 37:12 "Have the gods of the nations delivered them..."

Ps 96:5 "For all the gods of the nations are idols..."

Isa 9:1 "...Galilee of the nations."


Again: The Scriptural meanings of the two terms are the following:

Judeans (mistranslated "Jews" in the Bible): Those who were aware of, or who worshiped, the God of heaven. (Even though often they had wandered far from the God of heaven they were supposed to know.)

Nations (mistranslated "Gentiles" in the Bible): Those who did NOT know, nor worship, the God of heaven, but instead worshiped pagan idols.

Neither term was a designation of ethnicity or blood line. Both terms were defined in relation to their religion - their worship which, in general, correlated with their geographical location.

The center of the worship of the God of heaven in the entire inhabited world, was Jerusalem which was in the region of Judea. Everywhere else was referred to as "the Nations."

"There were no nations until after the flood. God did not "select" Israel and Judah (and the Pharisees) because of their superiority to other nations, God "created" them for one purpose, to be His bondslaves, so that through that nation all the other nations should come to know Him. The idea that Israel was a magnificently developed type of nation is a mistaken one. Israel was a despised, and a despisable nation, continually turning away from God into idolatry." Complete works of Oswald Chambers; Discovery House Publishers pg 1317



Was Jesus a Jew?

Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, so He was a Judean by birth location (NOT a "Jew" by genetics), but he lived his life in Nazareth, in "Galilee of the Nations (Gentiles)" so He was a Nazarene. Isa 9:1

Jesus was a child of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:34,35). He had no lineage from His stepfather, Joseph. Yes, His earthly parents, both His earthly mother and His earthly father, were from the line of David. David was an Israelite, He lived in Israel in the area of Judah, but did that make him "Jewish" genetically?

The prophecy of Jesus' lineage through His earthly parents was given so those who were searching the Scriptures and watching for the Messiah would be able to identify Him appropriately when He came. Even then, the greatest scholars and the wisest in the synagogues STILL did NOT recognize the Messiah.

Many claim that Jesus had to have had genes from His mother, Mary, or He wouldn't have been able to fulfill the prediction of the Scriptures - - to be "tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb 4:15) Yet Adam and Eve were created by God, with no genes from an earthly mother or father, and they were not only "susceptible" to sin - - - they ACTUALLY sinned!

So Jesus did NOT have to have earthly genes in order to be susceptible to sin. But when He was tempted, He overcame!

There is an additional compelling reason why Jesus had NO earthly genes from either of His earthly parents, including NO genes from His earthly mother, Mary. He could NOT have had ANY of Mary's human genes, because if He had, it would have been a case of the creature (a human being - Mary) CREATING the CREATOR (God in the human form of Jesus), it would be a case of humanity CREATING God! That could NOT be! Jesus had NO genes from a human parent. He was "born of the Holy Spirit." Matt 1:18

Jesus was placed in Mary's womb to grow in her body, to symbolize Jesus coming from "outside" of us, from "outside" of this world to come into us and become One with us. Jesus came into this world to become One with humanity, to live in us.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory!" Col 1:27

"Let this mind be in you which is in Christ Jesus." Phil 2:5

Paul said, "I died, yet I live, but not I, but Christ lives in me." Gal 2:20



Is Salvation "OF the Jews?"


Is "Salvation of the Jews" as the King James Bible translates John 4:22? The prepositions in the Greek are far more specific. The Greek word used here is "Ek" (#1537) which means "origin."

Since Jesus was born in Judea and since He identifies Himself as the "Saviour of ALL mankind" (1 Tim 4:10), the phrase should be translated, "Salvation is OUT OF Judea." (John 4:22) Salvation is found ONLY in Jesus, Who was born (came OUT OF) Judea!


It's ALL ABOUT JESUS - NOT about Israel or the "Jews!"


Look at Matt 2:6 "And thus Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for OUT OF ("Ek" #1537) thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

Micah 5:2 "And thou, Bethlehem, house of Ephratha, art few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah; yet OUT OF ("Ek" #1537) thee shall one come forth to me, to be a ruler of Israel; and His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity." (From the Greek O.T.)

Heb 7:14 "For it is manifest that OUT OF ("Ek" #1537) Judah has sprung our Lord..."


Jesus NEVER identified Himself as a Jew

In fact, He was ALWAYS at odds with Jewry.

Jesus was taunted, baited and hated by the Jewish Rabbis because He taught a TOTALLY DIFFERENT religion from what the Pharisees and Rabbis taught. Christ's message was the ANTITHESIS of that day's Jewish religion.

Jesus NEVER identified Himself with the "Jews." He always referred to them as separate from Him.

John 7:1 "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He would not walk in Jewry (Judea), because the Jews sought to kill Him."

Luke 11:47, 48 "Woe unto you! for you build the sepulchres of the prophets, and YOUR fathers killed them."

John 6:58 "I am the Bread which came down from heaven; YOUR fathers ate manna and are dead."

John 8:56 "YOUR father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it and was glad."

Mk 7:9 "And He said unto them, Full well, you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep YOUR OWN tradition."

Matt: 15:3, 6 "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by YOUR tradition?...."Thus you have made the commandment of God of none effect by YOUR traditions."

The designation "Judean" (shortened in the King James Version to "Jew), was NOT a genetic designation, it was a religious and cultural designation. Jesus was the ANTITHESIS of EVERYTHING Judean or "Jewish!"

Jesus was definitely NOT a Jew!


Galilee was an Ethnic "Melting Pot"

The area of Galilee had been conquered by foreign invaders twice and each time the majority of the population were killed or taken prisoner to the conqueror's homeland. The area was then repopulated with people transported in from the conquering nation.

The first conqueror was Assyria, which came against the Northern Kingdom of Israel in 722 B.C. Samaria was captured and its people exiled, bringing the northern Kingdom to an end. The area was then repopulated with people from the conquering Kingdom.

2 Kings 17:5,6,17,18 "Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years. In the ninth year of Hosea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes...

The Lord was "provoked to anger because Israel "caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments... Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of His sight; there was NONE left but the tribe of Judah ONLY."

2 Kings 17:24 "And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof."

The second time was by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, in 586 B.C.,when Daniel and his three friends were taken into captivity along with thousands of others. The area of Israel was ravished and became almost a wasteland.

2 Kings 24:1,2,14,15 "In his days, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years; then he turned and rebelled against him. And the Lord sent against him (Jehoiakim) bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the Word of the Lord, which he spake by his servants the prophets.

"And he carried away ALL Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths; none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land."

2 Kings 25:11 "Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzaradan, the captain of the guard, carry away."

So Judah, as well as Galilee, had been repopulated with non-Jews.

In addition, we are told repeatedly in the Bible that when the Israelites came into the land of Canaan, they inter-married with the Canaanites, rebelling against the Lord's directions not to do that.

Also, Rahab, the (NON-Jew) Canaanite prostitute, was an ancestor of Jesus. Rahab was Boaz' mother. (Matt 1:5) Boaz married Ruth and they were the grandparents of Jesse, the father of King David, through whose line Jesus came. (Rahab was King David's great grandmother! Rahab was NOT "Jewish!")

One more thing, when the Israelites initially left Egypt, when they were an infant nation, they were already a MIXED MULTITUDE! Ex 12:38 says, "And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. And a MIXED MULTITUDE went up also with them;..."

It's abundantly clear that there was no ethnically pure "Jewish" heritage in Israel hundreds of years BEFORE Jesus was born, much less when He arrived. Even MORE so today, with all the intermarrying, there is really no such thing as a "Jew" by heredity, only by social culture.

This is dramatically confirmed by Arthur Koestler, a "Jew", in his amazing book, The Thirteenth Tribe. Koestler reveals that approximately 80% of all the "Jews" in the world today, the Ashkenazim "Jews", are really Khazars, originating from Khazaria, an area that later became Russia. The vast majority of "Jews" in the world today, have NO semitic blood in them. They are "Gentiles", if you will.

In his book, Koestler "traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark Ages became converted to Judaism. Khazaria, which flourished from the seventh to the eleventh century, was finally wiped out by the forces of Genghis Khan, but evidence indicates that the Khazars themselves migrated to Poland and formed the cradle of Western Jewry. . ."

"The Khazars found themselves in a precarious position between the two major world powers: the Eastern Roman Empire in Byzantium and the triumphant followers of Mohammed. As Mr. Koestler points out, the Khazars were the Third World of their day, and they chose a surprising method of resisting both the Western pressure to become Christian and the Eastern to adopt Islam. Rejecting both, they converted to Judaism. . . The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated. Alas, "anti-Semitism" can no longer be "anti-Semitism" if the "victims" are NOT "Semitic" - - - if the "Jews" are NOT "Jewish"!

Under his chapter heading RACE AND MYTH, author Koestler states: "The Jews of our times fall into two main divisions: Sephardim and Ashkenazim. The Sephardim are descendants of the Jews who since antiquity had lived in Spain (in Hebrew Sepharad) until they were expelled at the end of the fifteenth century and settled in the countries bordering on the Mediterranean, the Balkans, and to a lesser extent in Western Europe. They spoke a Spanish-Hebrew dialect, Ladino, and preserved their own traditions and religious rites. In the 1960s, the number of Sephardim was estimated at 5000,000.

"The Ashkenazim, at the same period, numbered about eleven million. Thus, in common parlance, Jew is practically synonymous with Ashkenazi Jew....Summing up a very old and bitter controversy in a laconic paragraph, Raphael Patai wrote:2

"The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropometric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics - stature, weight, skin color, cephalic index, facial index, blood groups, etc."

According to Koestler, a "Jew" himself, as well as other "Jewish" authors, there is no such thing as a Jewish race. There is no such thing as a Jewish ethnicity. There IS a Jewish culture - a way they look at the world, a way they treat others who they consider Non-Jews, a way they raise their children to think of themselves, a way of doing business - a Jewish culture, but NOT a Jewish race.

There is NO evidence that any "Jews" can trace their ancestry to Abraham.


Blessing Abraham's "Heirs"

Christians base their support of the present-day State of Israel and the present-day "Jews" on Genesis 12:1-3,

"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from they kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." (Not just "Jewish" families).

This is interpreted by many Christians to mean that God will bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse the Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have just shown that Abraham's "seed" are those who follow Christ! The Jews. in general, and the Jewish religion HATE Christ!

First of all, the present day "Jews" CANNOT trace their ancestry to Abraham as has just been shown.

In addition, the Bible clearly states that being the "offspring of Abraham" is based on spiritual, NOT physical, factors.

In Romans 2:17,25,26,28,29,, Paul points out that someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a breaker of God's law, "is NOT a Jew."

Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall by seed be called." Abraham had two sons. The first, Ishmael, was born after the flesh. He was a son of "unbelief." Abraham didn't believe that God could give a son to his wife, Sarah, and himself in their very old age.

The second son was Isaac, who was born when Abraham had faith in God's promise (Gen 16:1-3, 15; 21:1-3; Rom 4:18-21) In Galatians 4:22-31, Paul reveals that Ishmael represents unbelieving Jews, while Isaac represents both Jews and Non-Jews who have faith!

In Romans 9:8, Paul concludes by saying, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God; but the children of the promise ARE COUNTED for the seed."

But Galatians 3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds, as of many, but as of ONE,' And to your Seed,' who is Christ."

Again Paul says in Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then YOU ARE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So CLEARLY what God is talking about when He says, "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee" are the TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, those who have an intimate relationship with Jesus - THESE are the "True Children of Abraham!" NOT the residents of present-day Israel - - who hate Jesus!

Another text often quoted is Matt 25:40 where Jesus says, "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me," claiming that Jesus is referring to His "Jewish" brethren.

Jesus is GOD. God is NOT Jewish. Jesus wasn't, and isn't, Jewish. Here Jesus, as a human being, is speaking of His brothers (and sisters) of the human race. Paul, considered to be a Jew of ALL Jews, writes to the "Gentiles" in the books of Romans, Corinthinians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians and the other epistles, and over 100 times refers to them as his "brethren." That DOESN'T mean they were "Jewish." They were his brethren in Christ.

Jesus explains this plainly in Matt 12:46-50: "While He talked to the people, behold, His mother and His brethren stood without, desiring to speak with Him.

"Then one said unto Him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

"But He answered and said unto him that told him, 'Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

'And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, 'Behold my mother an my brethren!

"For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the SAME is My brother, and sister, and mother."

The present-day State of Israel is populated by a group of people who are NOT the descendants of Abraham and have NO right to the area of Palestine based on Bible promises nor any factor, other than their indiscriminate use of military force.

I have found no such evidence regarding the Arab population, including the Palestinians. It appears that they may well be able to trace their lineage back to Ishmael and thus to Abraham, Ishmael's father, who was a descendant of Shem, Noah's son. A descendant of Shem is a Shemite or semite.

They (the Palestinians) then are the TRUE semites - and ANY words or actions against THEM (the Palestinians), must be considered Anti-semitism! It would follow then that the State of Israel and the "Jews" around the world are guilty of the most intense and abhorent anti-semitism against the Palestinians.


Who was the FIRST Jew?

If there is a Jewish race, with "Jewish genes", then WHO was the first "Jew"?

Abraham is often called the "father of the Jewish race," but Abraham was NOT a Jew! He was a Chaldean, from Ur of the Chaldees in the area of Babylon. So was Abraham's wife, Sarah.

Abraham was a "Hebrew" which is NOT synonymous with the word "Jew." The word "Hebrew" means "to pass or to cross over." Abraham "crossed over" the River Euphrates to get to the land of Canaan, but in doing so, his genes DID NOT change into "Jewish genes." Abraham was NOT Jewish! He was a Chaldean, from the area of Babylon!

Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac but neither one could have "Jewish genes" since neither Abraham nor the mothers of the two sons were "Jewish."

Isacc's sons were Jacob and Esau - and NEITHER one was "Jewish." If they were, then when did their "genes" suddenly become Jewish?

Esau became the father of the Edomites - they were definitely NOT Jewish!

Jacob and his sons went down into Egypt, then came out in the Exodus to the wilderness and on to Canaan, 40 years later. But their genes didn't change into Jewish genes along the way.

In fact, the group that came out of Egypt, the Israelites, were called, in the Bible, a MIXED MULTITUDE, meaning that there were others in the group BESIDES the offspring of Jacob.

Then when the Israelites reached the Land of Caanan they intermarried, against God's explicit command, with the pagans who were NON-Israelites, . Obviously, THAT didn't suddenly make them "Jewish."

SO - - - who was the FIRST Jew?

And HOW did ANYONE ever become "Jewish" genetically?

CONCLUSION: There is NO SUCH THING as a Jewish race! There is only a Jewish culture, the culture of the Talmud!


THE PRESENT-DAY"JUDAIZING" OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH


Over the recent years, there has been a progressive "Judaizing" of the Christian church with claims made that Christianity originated out of Judaism and that Christians owe their religion to the Jews - not only their religion, but their Messiah, Jesus Christ, who, it is claimed, was (is?) Jewish.

We have already addressed the issue of Jesus' ethnic background. Jesus is God! God is NOT Jewish! Jesus wasn't, nor is He now, "Jewish."

As for the question of the origin of the Christian church, Christianity is the absolute antithesis of Judaism. Judaism is Talmudism, the Talmud being the written-down traditions of the Pharisees, the VERY THING Jesus constantly denounced. (Mark 7:6-8) Everything Jesus taught was diametrically opposed to what was taught by the Pharisees, Rabbis and scribes. That's why they were constantly plotting to kill Jesus.

So Christianity did not originate from Judaism. Christianity was a CLEAN BREAK from EVERYTHING Judaism stood for. Christianity owes NOTHING of its beginnings to Judaism.

There is NO SUCH THING as "Judeo-Christian" anything! Judaism and Christianity are ABSOLUTE OPPOSITES!

God doesn't play favorites. He is "the Saviour of ALL mankind." (l Tim 4:10) He came to "seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10) which means EVERYONE, since everyone is lost at one time or another, irrespective of their ethnic or cultural background.

Paul writes that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

God loves EVERYBODY the same!


IN CONCLUSION:

1) The "Israel" of the New Testament is composed of the TRUE FOLLOWERS of Christ. It is NOT the literal Israel in Palestine.

2) There is no such thing as a "Jew" in the New Testament. The word is Judean and refers to those, of whatever nationality, who worship the God of heaven, most of whom in Bible times lived in the area of Judea.

3) The word "Gentiles" does NOT appear in the original Scriptures. It is a mistranslation of the word "Nations" meaning those who do not worship the God of heaven.

4) The modern word "Jew" is not a racial or ethnic designation. It refers to a culture or religion.

5) Jesus was (is) NOT a "Jew." Jesus is God! God is NOT Jewish!

6) The promise to Abraham, "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee" does NOT apply to the Jews! It applies to blessing or cursing the TRUE followers of Christ - the "seed of Abraham." (Rom 2:17-29, 9:8)

7) The majority, if not all of, the "Jews" in the world today are NOT semitic, nor can they trace their ancestry to Abraham. They are "Gentile" Khazars, so they have no right to the area of Palestine based on ANY Biblical promises!

8) There is NO such thing as a Jewish race, ONLY a Jewish culture - the culture of the Talmud.

9) Christianity does NOT have its roots in Judaism. Christianity was in Christ's time, and is today, the ANTITHESIS of Judaism!

This study reveals the following:

1) In the Old Testament, a man named Jacob is given a SPIRITUAL name, "Israel."

2) The HEIRS of Israel (Jacob) are ALSO called "Israel." And the "heirs" of Israel along with others become the NATION of Israel.

3) The Nation of Israel is called several names by God, including
a) My son, My firstborn
b) a "vine"
c) a "servant"
d) the "seed of Abraham"
e) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."

4) In the New Testament, a Divine Man, Christ, is given a SPIRITUAL name, "Israel."

5) The "HEIRS" (Children - followers) of Christ are ALSO called "Israel."

6) Christ is called by God:
a) My Son
b) a "vine"
c) a "servant"
d) the "seed of Abraham"
e) "My Son: that God "brought out of Egypt."

Christ SUCCEEDS everywhere that Israel Failed.

Christ and His HEIRS (Children - followers) are NOW the SPIRITUAL Israel, REPLACING the literal Israel of the Old Testament!

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/israel2.htm

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #24 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 04:25:27 »
Israel has always been the Church

bond

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #25 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 06:07:52 »
Bond, sigh, Bond, why do you ignore the difference between how the Lord is dealing with the Jewish people and how he deals with his bride?

Because you are creating and artificial distinction.  It's not in the Bible, it's in your head.

If you don't get it, sorry!

I get it, I just disagree.  What you say contradicts what the Bible says.  I don't need to explain scriptures or tell you what it means.  All I have to do is post it and anyone can see that what you are saying and what the Bible says are completely different.

Offline notreligus

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #26 on: Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 14:32:24 »
n2the light:

Answer: the Jews! Go back to Matt.23 and read everything Jesus had to say right to the end of Matthew 24.

Matt.23-24. Jesus is speaking to his disciples concerning the scribes and Pharisees. he speaks about the burdens they put on the people, how they love their feasts, how they love to be called Rabbi, Rabbi. He goes on to call them hyprocrites, calls them blind, fools, blind guides, etc. When he is finished He takes 3 disciples
up to the Mt. of Olives.

Now the 3 ask him a series of questions concerning the Temple, and when will he return to set up the kingdom for them. There is not one thing in either chapter that has anything to do with the Christian church or Gentiles, nothing!

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come in riding on a white horse, destroy their enemies, and set up the kingdom for them. They had absolutely no idea that 1980 + years would pass. What the Jews never understood was the idea of a suffering Messiah, and a Messiah who would be King of the Jews. They rejected Jesus, and today, they are waiting for their Messiah, and it's not Jesus. This is why when the beast comes during the tribulation, many Jews will think him to be the Jewish Messiah and so they will take his mark.

Phil

It is true that the Jews were expecting a man to come as the messiah and take up arms against their captors and then a kingdom would be established for them in the name of God Almighty.    However, a remnant did believe and therefore God did not put the Jews on hold and keep a separate program for their salvation on hold too.   If the Scriptures are true - and I believe they are - Christ already reconciled ALL of mankind back to Him through the finished work of Christ on the cross.   What has been necessary to save both Jew and Gentile has already been done.   End times teachers say, "No, you don't understand.  God has a separate plan for Israel."   I say that the end times teachers have missed it entirely.   They have confused the church such that the people in the are even looking at politicians as messiahs who will be God's selected leaders to turn this country and the world back to Him.   God already used patriarchs, judges, kings and prophets, and ultimately He came here Himself in the body of a man.   When He comes again He is going to establish His permanent kingdom on this Earth and He's not going to have another practice run for a separate people.   

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #27 on: Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 22:49:57 »
Quote
n2the light:

Answer: the Jews! Go back to Matt.23 and read everything Jesus had to say right to the end of Matthew 24.

Matt.23-24. Jesus is speaking to his disciples concerning the scribes and Pharisees. he speaks about the burdens they put on the people, how they love their feasts, how they love to be called Rabbi, Rabbi. He goes on to call them hyprocrites, calls them blind, fools, blind guides, etc. When he is finished He takes 3 disciples
up to the Mt. of Olives.

Now the 3 ask him a series of questions concerning the Temple, and when will he return to set up the kingdom for them. There is not one thing in either chapter that has anything to do with the Christian church or Gentiles, nothing!

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come in riding on a white horse, destroy their enemies, and set up the kingdom for them. They had absolutely no idea that 1980 + years would pass. What the Jews never understood was the idea of a suffering Messiah, and a Messiah who would be King of the Jews. They rejected Jesus, and today, they are waiting for their Messiah, and it's not Jesus. This is why when the beast comes during the tribulation, many Jews will think him to be the Jewish Messiah and so they will take his mark.

Phil

So you think only Jew's make up Israel?

Also how can it be written to them when they don't even believe in Christ?

Offline bhumason

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 01:01:42 »
There is so much in this thread it is making my head spin.  Going beck to the original question:

My question is this; by not receiving the mark, and being killed for that work, is this not a form of self-sacrificing that a person can boast of before God?

People are only saved by grace through faith.  Unsaved people, who did not take the mark, but die, will go to the lake of fire, like all other unbelievers.  Just as it is today.  Those who take the mark will also go to the lake of fire  (Revelation 14:9).  True believers will not take the mark and will reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).  Believers are not saved because of their works, they are saved to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). 

But, for those who are post-trib rapture.
If this is correct, they will go through the tribulation, then be raptured. If they are wrong, hmmmmmm, they may miss out all-to-gather because of their unbelief.
Your thoughts, and please, no opinions that are not scriptural, my desk is full of them.

Post-trib folks believe that both believers and unbelievers go through the tribulation.  Some believers will die during the tribulation and will be the martyrs under the alter (Revelation 6:9-11).  Other believers will survive the tribulation and will be caught up/raptured to meet Christ in the clouds as He is on his way down on His white horse (Rev 19:11). 

If post-trib folks are wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, they will be happy to be with Jesus sooner.  One's rapture view is not a salvation issue.

Quote

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
          15      For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
          16      For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
          17      Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 07:25:38 »
One's rapture view is not a salvation issue.
To keep it simple, one's understanding of biblical truth is NOT a prerequisite for entering into life~Jesus' perfect knowledge secured the gift of eternal life for his people.
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 53:11~'He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
Consideing your post, I would say that you should be very thankful for Jesus' perfect knowledge, for yours is a mess of confusion.

Online 4WD

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 07:37:50 »
To keep it simple, one's understanding of biblical truth is NOT a prerequisite for entering into life~Jesus' perfect knowledge secured the gift of eternal life for his people.
Not to change the subject or distract from the topic, but if Jesus had perfect knowledge as you state here, and I also believe he did, then why would Jesus need faith? Answer  --  He wouldn't; faith is necessary only in the absence of such knowledge.

KiwiChristian

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 16:26:03 »
    THE RAPTURE

Jesus Christ’s Second Coming for the Church

Bible Reading: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 14:2,3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Titus 2:13; Rev. 4:1,2.

Aim: To comfort and motivate one another with the truth of Christ’s return to take us to heaven.

Introduction: Jesus Christ’s return will be in two stages. One for His bride the Church, known as the “catching away” or “rapture”. (1 Thess. 4:13-18). The rapture will be followed by a seven year period known as the Tribulation. This will begin with the Antichrist from Europe making a treaty with Israel and breaking it after three-and-a-half years. The last three-and-a half years of the Antichrist’s reign will be the Great Tribulation spoken of by Christ in Matthew 24:21. This will be followed by the second stage of Christ returning to earth with believers to rule the world in righteousness. Zech 14:1-5; Jude 14

Definition: The term “rapture” comes from the Latin word for “caught up” in I Thessalonians 4:17. Before the seven year tribulation, Christ will descend from heaven, and catch up the Church to heaven to be with Himself. The Tribulation will then be unleashed on an unbelieving world.

The Scriptures teaching the “catching away” are as follows:

a) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” I Thessalonians 4:16-18.

b)    Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you (v.2). And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14: 2,3.
c)    “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and…must put on immortality.” I Cor. 15:51-53
d)    “Looking for that blessed hope (rapture), and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:13.
e)    John experienced the rapture: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me: which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter…And immediately…..in heaven.” Revelation 4:1,2.

   We may summarise the main events of the rapture from I Thessalonians 4:6-17, as follows:
i)    One day, Jesus Christ will descend from heaven and we will hear a shout, a voice and a trumpet.
ii)    All dead believer’s bodies will be resurrected to rejoin their spirits and souls in the air. iii)All living believers will receive resurrection bodies, and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

iv)We will receive immortal, resurrection bodies, a place Christ has prepared for us in heaven, comfort forever in the presence of Christ, and rewards promised in 2 Corinthians 5:10.

The rapture is called a comfort and a blessed hope. Notice several things about the rapture. 1. Rapidity of the Rapture = Immediately (I Corinthians 15:51,52).

“we shall all be changed in a moment (Greek: atomos 823),in the twinkling (Gk: rhipe 4493) of an eye.”
The speed with which the rapture will occur is described by these two Greek words which mean:
a) “atomos” = without a cut, indivisible. This is the word from which “atom” is derived, meaning “that which cannot be divided.” When referring to time it means “an indivisibly small instant of time; a point of time which cannot be divided.” It means “immediately.” b)“rhipe” = a quick motion, such as a fling or toss. A blink, wink, jerk, or twinkle of an eye. The least duration of time. People will not have time to call on Christ for salvation, or to do what they planned.
Believers must serve Christ now so that we won’t be ashamed at His coming. (I John 2:28).

2. Reason For The Rapture = To keep the Church out of the Tribulation.

The Church will be caught out of the world to be kept from the 7 year Tribulation period. The rapture will be as unexpected as a thief in the night. (I Thess.5:2-4). “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation wrath) by our Lord Jesus Christ.”I Thessalonians 5:9. Christ said to the faithful, Bible-loving Philadelphian church, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (Greek: ‘ek’ = out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them which dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).

Christ will spare His bride from going through the wars, famines, Antichrist’s persecutions, earthquakes, and other judgments that will come on an unbelieving world.
The purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel and unbelieving nations to repentance (Rev. 9:18-21). In Revelation 6:8, 25% of the world’s population are killed.
In Revelation 9:18, 33% of the rest are killed. This leaves only 50% of the world’s population alive.

3. Requirement to be Raptured

Only those who have been saved by calling on Christ to save them from their sins, will be raptured. “The dead in Christ shall rise first.” (I Thessalonians 4:16).
“we (all living believers) which are alive and remain shall be caught up….” (v.17). Q: Are you trusting Jesus Christ to save you, or your good works to gain God’s acceptance?

Some people in this room may be left behind if Jesus Christ returned today.
Q: Would you be taken to be with Christ, or would you be left behind to enter the 7 year Tribulation?

Can you imagine what it would be like to be left behind?

a)    You phone your Christian friends, and they are nowhere to be found.
b)    The newspapers and television report millions of missing people.
c)    Many driverless cars will have crashed on the roadside.
d)    People will panic about their missing family and friends. They will demand an explanation. Was it the rapture predicted in the Bible? Antichrist will offer a false yet plausible explanation that many will believe (2 Thess. 2:8-12), maybe that UFOs took Christians who were resisting the new world order.

Q: Will you be saved and taken, or lost and left behind? Receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour today.

4. Rewards after the Rapture.

Following the rapture, all Christians will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10,12; 1 Cor. 3:10-15) to receive rewards according to the quality of our service to Christ after salvation. Some Christians will suffer loss of rewards that they could have earned. (1 Cor. 3:15).
“every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” (I Corinthians 3:8).

Q: Will you win rewards, or will you lose rewards?

5. Revelation of the Sons of God.

When Christ appears, we shall be just like Him, even though we may now appear unattractive and unimportant. We will have a glorious, immortal body just like Jesus Christ has now.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2.

“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” Romans 8:18,19.

God has predestined every believer to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. (Romans 8:29)

6. Our Response to the Rapture.

‘And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself (sanctification), even as he is pure.’1 John 3:3

Question: How should we now live? If we knew we’d be “caught up” next year, we should:

a)    Live pleasing to God by reading/studying the Bible, and praying daily.
b)    Learn How to win people to Christ so they’ll be caught up to heaven and won’t go through the Tribulation. Pastors should conduct a soul-winning training session this week. We want to rejoice with people in heaven who we have led to Christ on earth. We only have a short time to do soul-winning. We are in a war for eternal souls now. Don’t be lazy, but get busy rescuing people from hell. After the rapture you’ll have no chance to pluck people from hell. You’ll never see your unsaved family and friends again. You can rest forever in eternity, but now is the time to win souls to Christ.
a)    Confess and Forsake any known sins. 1 John 1:9.
b)    Dedicate your life wholeheartedly and completely to winning souls and serving Jesus Christ.

7. “Be ye also Ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.” (Matthew 24:44).
“Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.” Ephesians 5:16.

Conclusion: Are you ready to face Christ? Are you saved? Are you winning souls daily or weekly?
Is there any known sin in your life that you need to confess and forsake? Do so today.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 11:51:36 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

Obviously one of them is wrong. One comes from the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the other from man. Question, how can this issue be resolved?
Let’s start with the following:

Your thoughts, and please, no opinions that are not scriptural, my desk is full of them.

Laspino3

The problem with TRUTH is that if it is sincerely sought it will be found.  When the seeker finds the truth he normally discovers that it will speak to him and demand that he exercise action.  Truth is never silent and truth is never apathetic. This is why most who seek truth abandon it once it's found.  Darkness does not require spiritual responsibility, it only requires assent - lip service.  Therefore much heresy is promoted by the devil and by those who carry personal prejudices of one sort or another.  Mankind loves darkness rather than light.  - Jesus as quoted by John 3:19

For this reason as well as many others, a proper response to the rapture ideology is difficult because those who promote it prefer darkness heresy and murderous applications.  Due to considerations of lack of space a few limited justifications for my opinion will be provided.  I doubt they will be well received.  If you want to start a fist fight among Christians of the modern age all you have to do is suggest they are believing a lie where the rapture/tribulation dogma is concerned.

"Truth is so obscured today and lies so well established, that unless we love the truth we shall never recognize it." - Blaise Pascal

"Truth is the new hate speech.  During times of universal deceit, telling the truth can be a revolutionary act."  - George Orwell

NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS EXISTS FOR THE ORIGINS AND PROMOTION OF THE RAPTURE IDEOLOGY. 

Origins
The rapture ideology was born in 19th century in Scotland and Ireland and was widely promoted in America before the end of the century.   In 1830 a Scottish woman named Mary MacDonald received a revelation that the church would not go through the end-time tribulation.(1)  The Anglo-Irish Bible teacher John Nelson Darby (2) believed that this new truth was from God and he spread the idea among the Plymouth Brethren sect.  The idea was promoted in his general work on Dispensationalism of which his version of the rapture and the tribulation are pillars of the new ideology.  In twentieth century America, the idea was promoted by Cyrus Scofield via his study Bible by evangelist D.L. Moody and by writers Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye.  The last two writers popularized the dogma in many books, lectures and television appearances. 

The theory is widely accepted by the same people who deny its origins.

Context
The context of Biblical teaching is consistent in its suggestion that followers of Adonai/Christ are co-workers with the divine in working through tribulation, not escaping from it.  The Bible never suggests that evacuation from trouble is an option supplied by divine providence.   In Genesis, Adonai provided deliverance from the Great Flood by means of a vessel that would transport Noah and his family through the trouble.  In Exodus, Adonai provided the passover as a means of deliverance from a plague of death and the person of Moses who guided the Hebrew people in their walk out of slavery.   In the books of Kings, Chronicles, Psalms and Proverbs the writers glorify the God of Israel who demonstrated a constant and consistent desire to guide His people through adversity - not to evacuate from it. The prophets of the Old Testament clearly taught that destruction would visit people who refused to walk with Adonai through trouble and who sought escape by methods and desires forbidden by Adonai. 

Study Question
Why did Adonai give Moses two sets of tablets of the Law/10 commandments?  What was the significance of the second set of tablets and the additional promise of Adonai that went with it? (3)

Jesus never promised an escape from persecution
"If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you... A slave is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you" - Jesus as quoted by Matt 24:18, 20

"All who desire to live godly in Messiah Yeshua will be persecuted" - St. Paul as quoted by 2 Timothy 3:12 All means everyone, everywhere, at any time in history.

Jesus' final word on evacuation...
"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Anti-semitic
Finally and most importantly, the rapture/tribulation ideology as formulated in the last two centuries is anti-semitic - prejudiced against Jews.   

Taken literally, the statement of the rapture suggests that only Protestant Christians are evacuated into heaven at the time of the tribulation.  All other people on planet earth remain to suffer divine judgments.  Roman Catholics as well as certain pseudo-Christian cults are excluded from the rapture as well as all the churches of Orthodox Christianity.  Jews are top on the list of those hated by rapturists.   Case in point is acceptance of the desire for Jews to suffer a second holocaust so as to force them to convert to Protestant Christianity.  The Biblical issue was Jewish acceptance of Y'shuah as ha-meshiah - not membership and acceptance of Hellenized Christianity. (4) 

Some records suggest that between 25% & 30% of Jews in the first century accepted Y'shuah as ha-mashiah.  Messianic Jews were later persecuted by the Hellenized Christian church despite their acceptance of Christ as savior.   Does this demonstrate divine intent for Jews or does it demonstrate anti-semitism on the part of the official church?

The rapture is at its most basic a rant against Jews and the Judaic religion.   The tribulation is a corrupted form of an actual Biblical prophetic event.   Both modern interpretations form a heresy that does not appear anywhere in Biblical context.  Both dogmas suggest that one is not a true believer unless he or she accepts a desire for the murder of millions of innocent Jewish men, women and children - described as a second holocaust. 

Summary
THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS including plentiful quotations from scripture, from the Son of God, from references to current literature and facts and from an appeal to logic.  The doctrine of the rapture is illogical, anti-semitic, and a doctrine of the devil as evidenced by its point of origin and promotion.   It is not of God. 

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1) quoted from: The Pre-Trib Rapture: My Dissent by Paul Sumner "Through many tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
(2) Darby was a consort of witches.   see Google & Wikipedia
(3) Exodus 34. The 2nd set of tablets resonates with the entire New Testament in that Adonai promised to be with the Hebrews after issuing the 2nd set of tablets.  Physically present with the Hebrews in the column of fire and smoke, He is also present with the faithful in the entire New Testament in the person of Jesus Christ the Son of God.
(4) Y'shuah is the actual Hebrew name of the Son of God.  It literally translates to Joshua - one who leads into the promised land.   Ha-mashiah is Hebrew for messiah - the anointed of God unto deliverance.  The term 'Hellenized Christianity' generally refers to pagan influences upon the teachings of the Book of Acts and the Epistles of the apostles of Christ.  What do Easter eggs have to do with the resurrection and how do over-commercialized winter solstice celebrations glorify the birth of the Savior of mankind?  They don't.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 12:24:25 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #33 on: Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 13:58:59 »
NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS EXISTS FOR THE ORIGINS AND PROMOTION OF THE RAPTURE IDEOLOGY. 

This is demonstrably false. 1 Thess 4:17

Origins
The rapture ideology was born in 19th century in Scotland and Ireland and was widely promoted in America before the end of the century.   In 1830 a Scottish woman named Mary MacDonald received a revelation that the church would not go through the end-time tribulation.(1)  The Anglo-Irish Bible teacher John Nelson Darby (2) believed that this new truth was from God and he spread the idea among the Plymouth Brethren sect. 

This is also false. The first proponent of the rapture theory as we know it, was a Jesuit by the name of Francisco Ribera, in 1590.  He postulated a mid-trip rapture.  The idea of the pre-tribulation rapture was first proposed in 1788 by a Baptist, Morgan Edwards.  A  Catholic priest, Manuel Lacunza, proposed the idea in 1812, and John Darby wrote his theory in 1827.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #34 on: Thu Jan 11, 2018 - 07:35:33 »
This is demonstrably false. 1 Thess 4:17

This is also false. The first proponent of the rapture theory as we know it, was a Jesuit by the name of Francisco Ribera, in 1590.  He postulated a mid-trip rapture.  The idea of the pre-tribulation rapture was first proposed in 1788 by a Baptist, Morgan Edwards.  A  Catholic priest, Manuel Lacunza, proposed the idea in 1812, and John Darby wrote his theory in 1827.

CONTEXT
DEMONIC inspiration for a false dogma is exclusive use of a single scripture.  Satan did it with Christ in the gospels and men, governed by their own interests, have done so since the early days chronicled in Genesis.  Between one and six scriptures are used to justify the rapture theory and its consequential hatred of Jews.  The overwhelming context of Biblical teaching is that God will see His people through trouble and not evacuate them from it.   

Of what purpose then is faith?  If a Star Trek beam out is to be expected at every bad turn in life's road, then why does the Lord of Hosts spend ALL of scripture teaching otherwise? 

How strange it is that those who hold the rapture heresy to be true will present a few clips of scripture and deny the entire context of Biblical teaching.   It's all about context, context, context and rapturism doesn't fit at all.   Rapture theorists are all about anti-semitism.  Jews, and everyone who isn't an evangelical protestant Christian, are excluded because they don't fit the formula.  Logic alone should declare the falsehood in this ideology.

ORIGINS
The modern origins for most of the heresy we know today began in the 19th century.   

Many, not all, began within twenty years of one another. 
- Darwin's theory of evolution began at about the same time as
- American pseudo-Christian cults (Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, Christian spiritualism, etc.),
- the secular theory of eugenics (later adopted by German National Socialists to justify mass murder of Jews),
- Darby's Dispensationalism (rapture & tribulation corruption of Biblical escatology) and even
- the modern flap(*) regarding sightings of UFO's,
- technology & scientific advance worshipped as the god of mankind and the answer to all its problems,
- 14th amendment of the US constitution (intended to eradicate slavery, it actually defines a corporation as a person thus enabling social economic and political slavery)
- Fundamentalism subverted (an honorable attempt to define and codify basic Christian beliefs was corrupted by Dispensationalism, spiritualism and commercialism)
- beginnings of fragmentation of American Protestantism

2 Thess 2:11-17 predicts a Great Deception in the form of lies and condemnation would be thrust upon the earth in the End Times.  The pattern for this type of judgment is explained in the Torah and Tanakh (old testament).  It comes upon the earth because mankind raises itself to the place of god and because sound teaching is rejected.  Therefore God allows man to believe the lies of the devil. 

In 1 Tim 4, the apostle warns that false teaching would multiply so as to justify turning away from the faith.  The cowardly dogma of the rapture is such a faithless turning away.  God honors faith and courage, NOT cowardly efforts and teaching that seeks a cheap way out of trouble.   

God is our fortress.   Even the Son of God was NOT evacuated from the tribulation of crucifixion, but had to suffer through it.   If Jesus did not seek escape, neither should those that truly follow Him.   

Since rapture theorists rely upon one or two scripture references to justify their opinion, I can do the same thing;

"My prayer is NOT THAT YOU TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD but that you protect them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

How plain does it have to get?  How great must one's cowardice be to reject a statement of hope and promise in the midst of tribulation?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) A Flap, in UFO parlance, is the ocurance and/or observation of a large number of unknown objects in the atmosphere, on the ground or affecting humans directly.  While such objects were recorded in ancient times, the advent and frequency of their appearance on earth began in large numbers in the mid-19th century - not post WWII as many theorists suggest.  The difference is that prior to WWII many sightings were regularly published by legitimate newspapers & magazines.  After WWII they were not.  Many students of statistics suggest a correlation between UFO's and intense -negative- spiritual effects upon society and culture in general.  Whatever they are, they are not friendly.  Wherever they come from, they have never demonstrated any evidence of kindness toward humanity.  Secular society has raised these apparitions to the level of idols despite the historic record, despite statistics and despite personal testimony.  They are indigenous to this world, not visitors from another planet and the number and intensity of their effects upon human society has increased dramatically since the middle of the nineteenth century.   
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 11, 2018 - 08:09:58 by Choir Loft »

 

     
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