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Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #35 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 08:19:21 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

Obviously one of them is wrong.
Hi LaSpino3. I hope you don't mind me addressing a bit of your thread at a time.
The word Rapture we use describes our being Caught Up to meet Jesus in the air.

If we depart from our present state we are in the presence of our Savior Jesus.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Php 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
My question to this point is, what is it that which sleeps that is caught up at that time from the grave? The flesh? Our spirit was caught up the moment we died.

The second part of this is the statement you make of there the rapture being limited to only TWO.
To me I read of the Twenty-Four elders (Rev 4:4), the Four Living Ones of (Rev 4:6), The great multitude (Rev 7:13-14), the one hundred and forty-four thousand (Rev 14:1), and those at the last trump (1 Cor 15:52). The very term "Last Trump" would seem to require there be previous trumps.
 ::applause::

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #35 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 08:19:21 »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:32:28 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

Obviously one of them is wrong. One comes from the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the other from man. Question, how can this issue be resolved?
Let’s start with the following:

******

Laspino3

I've posted on the rapture/tribulation lie before, but logic it seems doesn't have any impact upon those who've chosen to believe a lie.

The ideology of rapture/tribulation, as it is presented in the modern age, was conceived by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century.  It was during this period that Charles Darwin proposed a pseudo-scientific basis for European racism and Friederic Nietzche's disciples began their atheistic assault upon Judea-Christian ethics and argument.   Together both men contributed to what became the German national policy of eugenics - the persecution and extermination of an entire race of people.

I submit that Darby's rapture and tribulation ideology is nothing more and nothing less than anti-semitic racist argument masquerading as Christian theology.

Consider that Darby's interpretation of the tribulation justifies the murder and persecution of Jews who do not join American Protestant churches.   Tracts and books written about this fictitious version of future events is nothing less than supermarket tabloid gibberish justifying a second holocaust against the Jew.  If a Jew does not abandon his or her tradition, Darby's disciples say, they will be subject to all the horrors of a second holocaust.   According to this vile form of religious propaganda, a second mass murder of Jews is to be sent by heaven so as to force the entire Jewish race to accepting Jesus Christ as their savior.   Is this love or hate language?   

A similar pattern of Christian persecution of Jews has been repeated throughout the two thousand years since the Romans trampled upon Jerusalem.   But those days are over.   They ended in 1968 when the IDF liberated Jerusalem.   The age of the church has ended despite its continued acceptance of false propagandistic doctrine such as Darby's version of the rapture and tribulation.

Consider that Darby's interpretation of scripture, of which there are only a handful of verses twisted into compliance, suggests that ONLY American Protestant evangelicals will be sucked into the clouds to avoid WWIII.  Only evangelicals will be transported to safety to escape a satanic assault upon the earth and only American evangelicals (or their foreign missions) will escape the tragic effects of their anti-semitic hopes for judgment upon Jews.  Consider that Roman Catholics, the entire global Orthodox communion, members of the Lutheran Church and anybody else that doesn't subscribe to their lunatic theology - will not be allowed to participate in the fantasy of a Star Trek type beam out.   Scotty won't beam up, because Scotty is Catholic.  William Shatner won't be beamed up because he's a Jew.

The rapture and tribulation ideology as formulated by John Nelson Darby and defended by American Christian evangelicals who ought to know better is demonically inspired anti-semitism through and through.   It is disgusting and abhorrent to anyone who holds that salvation comes through the Jew and that the second holocaust mass murder of the Jewish people is a thing to be hoped for.   Quite the contrary, I hate the very idea and believe it is not of God.   It will not happen and those who hope to witness the death of millions of Jews from a safe vantage point in the clouds will be very disappointed.   

God will vindicate His Word and defend His people - the Jews.  Watch and learn.  Those who hope for Jewish blood to be spilled, as outlined by Darby's tribulation propaganda teaching for a second holocaust, are nothing less than murderous hateful demonically inspired wretches who have been deluded into believing a lie.   The rapture and tribulation theology is a lie of satan and those who hold it close are kin to those who ran the Nazi death camps, for they hope to see it happen again.

If you refuse to listen to logic as it applies from scripture then I beg you in Jesus' name to remember the lesson of history.   Anti-semitism has raised its ugly head once again in the adoption and defense of rapture and tribulation hate language.  If you hate the Jew, then defend it.  If you love Jesus Christ, who IS a Jew, then abandon it for it is not of God.   

If you will not have mercy upon the Jew, will God have mercy upon you?   

He will not.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....   
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:50:15 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:32:28 »

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #37 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 11:26:20 »
Concerning the subject of rapture and tribulation there exists two mindsets. The 1st is, what we call pre-tribulation rapture, the 2ed is, post-tribulation rapture.

Obviously one of them is wrong. One comes from the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the other from man. Question, how can this issue be resolved?

Hi LaSpino. I haven’t read all the posts, but I’d like to comment on your original thought here as concerning a single rapture. My first scripture is 1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (If there’s a last trump, by necessity are there previous trumps?)

Revelation Chapters Two & Three show the judgment of seven separate conditions of the church, and using 1 Thes 4:16-17 each company shall consist of the dead in Christ first, and then any remaining alive until we meet Jesus in the air.

I can think of three separate raptures of just the church before the millennium, and they are those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 prior to the tribulation. next are those that come out of great tribulation in Rev 7:9, and last the 144,000 of Rev 14:1, and all these prior to the middle of the week.

I also read of those of Jesus’ reign seen under the altar that didn’t take the mark of the beast, the death of a child at a hundred years of age, and possibly more. Were those of Mat 27:52 considered a rapture?
Thanks.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #38 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 12:38:07 »
Let's simplify & go by what  Jesus said.


Jesus said "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."


Jesus said "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."


The resurrection of the righteous & the judgment of the wicked is the last day.

Not any day before & no more days after.

 

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #38 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 12:38:07 »
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Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #39 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 14:39:43 »
My first scripture is 1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Larry, greetings~Listen carefully to Paul words:
Quote
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump
Larry the resurrection of BELIEVERS shall take place at the LAST trump. This is the seventh and final trumpet of Revelation of Jesus Christ, written by John. If I reach into my pocket and give to you my LAST dollar, there is not more to follow...correct?
Quote from: larry2 Today at 11:26:20
(If there’s a last trump, by necessity are there previous trumps?)
This is correct. The other six take places BEFORE the last day of this world and the final judgment. They begun in Revelation 6 when the white horse left Jerusalem and went NORTHEAT into the Roman empire spreading the TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but most of them are in the process of being fulfilled BEGINNING within the little season of John's prophecy ~which time begun somewhere in the late 1700's to the early eighteen hundred and has been rapidly moving forward to its climate.....the second coming of Jesus Christ to gathered together his elect from the four winds of heaven and to destroy the wicked and their fake paradise~ The CITY of BABYLON built by the king from the bottomless pit. Jesus will turn Mystery Babylon into the lake of fire where they shall perish. Selah.
Quote from: Brother TonkaTim Today at 12:38:07
Not any day before & no more days after.
All of God's children said AMEN and AMEN.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 14:42:35 by RB »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #39 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 14:39:43 »



Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #40 on: Wed Apr 04, 2018 - 21:49:20 »
Larry, greetings~Listen carefully to Paul words: Larry the resurrection of BELIEVERS shall take place at the LAST trump. This is the seventh and final trumpet of Revelation of Jesus Christ, written by John. If I reach into my pocket and give to you my LAST dollar, there is not more to follow...correct?This is correct. The other six take places BEFORE the last day of this world and the final judgment. They begun in Revelation 6 when the white horse left Jerusalem and went NORTHEAT into the Roman empire spreading the TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but most of them are in the process of being fulfilled BEGINNING within the little season of John's prophecy ~which time begun somewhere in the late 1700's to the early eighteen hundred and has been rapidly moving forward to its climate.....the second coming of Jesus Christ to gathered together his elect from the four winds of heaven and to destroy the wicked and their fake paradise~ The CITY of BABYLON built by the king from the bottomless pit. Jesus will turn Mystery Babylon into the lake of fire where they shall perish. Selah.  All of God's children said AMEN and AMEN.

Is there a difference in incorruptibility, and eternal life? Is being present with the Lord when absent from the body only a consequence of the last trump?

Will Elisha no longer be teased as being bald?

Are the twenty-four elders with Jesus prior to Revelation Chapter Six? How and when are they seen in heaven?
What of those kept from the temptation to come upon all the world?

And we don’t want to forget the great multitude standing before God’s throne come out of great tribulation.

There are also the 144,000 standing before the elders and living ones with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. They have to get there somehow.

Paul also refers to Paradise now being up, instead of in the lower parts of the earth.
How do we explain these things away?

Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #41 on: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 05:08:00 »
How do we explain these things away?
Greetings Larry~you ask this question based upon what you have been taught and received as truth.

It is not explaining things away but explaining the biblical sense to your questions. If I take the time and energy to do so, will please continue this dialogue? People most of the time stop when they have no answers to give back.
Quote from:  larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
Is there a difference in incorruptibility, and eternal life?
Not going to spend very much time with each one for now. Of course, there's a difference since they are two different doctrines, we can have one without the other. Saints are legally (Romans 4:25) and positionally (Ephesians 2:5-7) in possession of eternal life abiding within them in the inward man, that was created after the image of Jesus Christ. In a true biblical sense, we will NEVER DIE.
Quote from: Jesus
John 8:51-52~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death."
Again:
Quote from: Jesus
John 11:26~"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The truth is this: When we die the death of THIS BODY, we keep living with Christ WITH OUR HOUSE FROM HEAVEN, per 2nd Corinthians 5. AT the resurrection at the last day, the full realization will be understood and enjoyed.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
Is being present with the Lord when absent from the body only a consequence of the last trump?
Has not one thing to do with the last trump. The last trump will mean that TIME WILL BE NO MORE, and all shall come forth to meet THE JUDGE and be judge. The righteous will NOT be judged, because their sins were judged in Christ.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
Will Elisha no longer be teased as being bald?
Let John answer this for you:
Quote from: John
1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Does that answer your question?
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
Are the twenty-four elders with Jesus prior to Revelation Chapter Six? How and when are they seen in heaven?
Revelation of Jesus Christ was NOT written in chronological order from chapter four to the first part of chapter 20. John constantly gave to us a recapitulation (estating the main points of something) of events from the cross to the final judgment at the great white throne judgment at the last day. So to answer your question the answer would be NO. This is easily proven if you desire proof.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
What of those kept from the temptation to come upon all the world?
The hour of temptation is the little season as prophesied BY John not by John Hagee! God's very elect CANNOT be deceived during this period of time just before this world comes to its end. We shall be here until the last day. Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 especially so 2nd Thessalonians 2: proves this so clearly.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
There are also the 144,000 standing before the elders and living ones with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. They have to get there somehow. Paul also refers to Paradise now being up, instead of in the lower parts of the earth.
First, let me answer this one:
Quote
Paul also refers to Paradise now being up, instead of in the lower parts of the earth.
Paradise has NEVER been in the middle of the earth, NEVER! You have been listening to too many RCC teachers. Do you have just one scripture to support that teaching? No, you do not. When Elijah left this world, which way did he go? I'm pretty sure he went UP, not down like reprobates did that withstood Moses, the earth open her mouth and down they went.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 21:49:20
There are also the 144,000 standing before the elders and living ones with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. They have to get there somehow.
I want to say more than time and space will allow for now, but I'll come back and finish what I started.


« Last Edit: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 05:11:38 by RB »

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #42 on: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 06:32:14 »

Paul also refers to Paradise now being up, instead of in the lower parts of the earth.

 

First, let me answer this one:Paradise has NEVER been in the middle of the earth, NEVER! Do you have just one scripture to support that teaching? No, you do not.

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him (one of the thiefs), Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended (Jesus), what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
(Until Jesus died there was no man ascended into heaven.)

Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Jesus), even the Son of man which is in heaven.



Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #43 on: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 08:34:35 »
Until Jesus died there was no man ascended into heaven.

Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Jesus), even the Son of man which is in heaven

You must read the scriptures, and THEN rightly divide them~ and this done by reading them distinctly and make sure there's a perfect flow of one cohesive whole concerning the particular doctrine one is studying to understand. If there is inconsistency in one's doctrine, then that only proves that that person still has not been able to come unto the knowledge of the truth concerning that doctrine that he or she is laboring to understand.
Quote
Until Jesus died there was no man ascended into heaven.
Well, Larry, this is STILL true as far as the sense of understanding John 3:13. Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that ascended (also, descended) into the heavens BY HIS OWN POWER.
Quote
John 3:13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Jesus), even the Son of man which is in heaven."
The sense of this scripture can not mean what you think it means, for it is evident that Enoch and Elijah had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in (Deuteronomy 30:12; Romans 10:6)~ and which may be illustrated by (John 1:18~ wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them.

Now Larry, before you question this interpretation, consider ALL of John 3:13, which reads:
Quote from: Jesus
John 3:13~[/b]"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Jesus), even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that could make such a statement~he was not only ON earth speaking to Nicodemus, but he ALSO was IN HEAVEN being the IAM THAT I AM in his Divine nature. So truly John 3:13 could ONLY be spoken of Christ then, now and forever more.

So you can not use John 3:13 in the sense you desire to use it.
Quote from:  larry2 Today at 06:32:14
Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him (one of the thiefs), Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended (Jesus), what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
(Until Jesus died there was no man ascended into heaven.)
The thief was with Christ that very day in Paradise, BUT first MUST he die and BE BURIED in the earth, is the only meaning that could be given to these words.

People have been deceived by RCC/EOC in understanding of Jesus' descent into a place they call Limbus Patrum, which they make to be contiguous to hell; and where they say the patriarchs were detained till Christ's coming; and that he went thither to deliver them out of it; and that these are the captivity he led captive; all which is fictitious and fabulous and a big fat lie. It's called fairy tales/fables, which is all they have to offer their followers.  We have much more to give our hearers than fables.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 14:05:00 by RB »

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #44 on: Thu Apr 05, 2018 - 11:11:31 »
You must read the scriptures, and THEN rightly divide them~ and this done by reading them distinctly and make sure there's a perfect flow of one cohesive whole concerning the particular doctrine one is studying to understand. If there is inconsistency in one's doctrine, then that only proves that that person still has not been able to come unto the knowledge of the truth concerning that doctrine that he or she is laboring to understand.Well, Larry, this is STILL true as far as the sense of understanding John 3:13. Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that ascended (also, descended) into the heavens BY HIS OWN POWER. The sense of this scripture can not mean what you think it means, for it is evident that Enoch and Elijah had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in (Deuteronomy 30:12; Romans 10:6)~ and which may be illustrated by (John 1:18~ wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them.

Now Larry, before you question this interpretation, consider ALL of John 3:13, which reads: Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that could make such a statement~he was not only ON earth speaking to Nicodemus, but he ALSO was IN HEAVEN being the IAM THAT I AM in his Divine nature. So truly John 3:13 could ONLY be spoken of Christ then, now and forever more.

So you can not use John 3:13 in the sense you desire to use it. The thief was with Christ that very day in Paradise, BUT MUST he had to died and BE BURIED in the earth, is the only meaning that could be given to these words.

People have been deceived by RCC/EOC in understanding of Jesus' descent into a place they call Limbus Patrum, which they make to be contiguous to hell; and where they say the patriarchs were detained till Christ's coming; and that he went thither to deliver them out of it; and that these are the captivity he led captive; all which is fictitious and fabulous and a big fat lie. It's called fairy tales/fables, which is all they have to offer their followers.  We have much more to give our hearers than fables.

To me, assumptions, and many times man's interpreted context as to God’s work is the problem; not scripture. Where did Jesus go retrieve His own when He died?

Again I offer Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended (Jesus), what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

The closest scripture I can assume this to be is Abraham’s bosom of Lk 16:19-31. That was the place of comfort for the righteous until Jesus made the way to heaven open for them through His death. There was no need for Jesus to visit the rich man there for there was no way for one in hell to pass from there to where Lazarus was. Lk:26.

Joh 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: (the third day; where was Jesus all that time?) but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #45 on: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 05:46:01 »
To me, assumptions
Larry, I have provided scriptures, no personal opinions and certainly no assumptions. I also have look at every scripture you gave in your defense and addressed them with scriptures in all fairness. Now, by me saying this, I do not believe you are being dishonest in any way, just you are fighting for what you have received as the truth, but you will find no support from God's testimony of the truth. I'm just as convinced of this, as I'm of your sincerity of what you think is the truth. If it may make you feel better then I will add this: I have drunk the same deadly poison in my younger zealous days as a believer and have overcome it with following God's prescription of the truth, and not man's vain opinions/assumptions.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 11:11:31
Where did Jesus go retrieve His own when He died?
The scriptures said that he died and was buried in a tomb of Joseph Arimathaea, and AFTER three days and three night he arose before sunrise. That's God testimony up to his resurrection. You added this scripture to your thread:
Quote
John 2017~"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: (the third day; where was Jesus all that time?) but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Your question highlighted in red~Answer....Jesus commended his spirit back to God and gave UP the ghost ( Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30) and his BODY was buried. What more do you desire me to say, than what I read from the scriptures? Many ADD to this without support from God.
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 11:11:31
Again I offer Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended (Jesus), what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 
Larry, offering scriptures without giving them a sense to them so others can understand proves not one thing.

Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth simply speaking of his humilation in tabernacling here BELOW AND in submitting to the degradation of the GRAVE...consider Psalm 63 "the lowest part of the earth" is a mode of expression employed to denote the GRAVE. There are other scriptures as well speaking of this:
Quote from: David
Psalms 139:15,16~'My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
This speaks of Christ' incarnation when he was formed in the womb ALONG with his ELECT (his members)~the womb is called the lowest parts of the earth IN COMPARISON to the glory he had as the I AM THAT I AM!
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 11:11:31
Again I offer Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended (Jesus), what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 
Offer it, but give the scripture its true biblical sense which would be that Ephesians 4:9 is speaking of Christ' humiliation in living in the likeness of sinful flesh among sinful men!
Quote from: larry2 Yesterday at 11:11:31
The closest scripture I can assume this to be is Abraham’s bosom of Lk 16:19-31. That was the place of comfort for the righteous until Jesus made the way to heaven open for them through His death. There was no need for Jesus to visit the rich man there for there was no way for one in hell to pass from there to where Lazarus was. Lk:26.
Luke 16:19-31 is a parable and can easily be proven. It was spoken to reprove the Pharisees who were covetous people. If you desire to look into Luke 16:19-31 we can in another thread which there should be one already started.  There is NO such doctrine as a PRESENT BURING HELL where the wicked go, ONLY to be brought back out and be judged ONLY to be cast back AGAIN! So much false doctrine connected with Luke 16:19-31. ALL people from the beginning  (Abel) if righteous and die, they go to be with the spirits of JUST men MADE PERFECT with God~if wicked and die lost, they go into DARKNESS, silence, with no consciousness of this life, or the land of the living. They will remain there unto the LAST day and then resurrected to be JUDGE and then cast into the lake of fire to PERISH FOREVER, which IS the SECOND DEATH. No assumptions, but the pure word of God.

« Last Edit: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 08:41:07 by RB »

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #46 on: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 10:41:55 »
Larry, I have provided scriptures, no personal opinions and certainly no assumptions.

I apologize RB if it sounded as if I were assigning the tag of assumptions at you; I did not mean it that way. There are so many different methodologies in interpretation among true believers, and especially loss of context, I attempt to use scripture, and many times that is not accepted either.

To me this has nothing to do with our security in Christ, and I’ll go no further with you as to its who is right or wrong. I’ll only try to answer questions. Thanks for your time.

In Jesus’ name.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #47 on: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 13:28:18 »
I apologize RB if it sounded as if I were assigning the tag of assumptions at you; I did not mean it that way.
Brother, let me say this one thing~I took NO offense at what you said and you owe me no apology. I'm a hard person to offend, your post is always very gentle and extremely kind, maybe too much so. At times one needs to be very bold and straightforward.....my friend 4WD I believe is one of the most balanced people here~he's fair, and he's can be very hard at times~and he's certainly not bashful., or afraid to hurt one's feeling, which is needed to correct an error with certain temperament types, with some you need to be careful, I know too well~but with me a two by four works better, I learn that a strong rebuke is better for me. If you believe I am wrong then use forcible words to me.  One thing I'm not is a Pharisees who were easily offended by Christ words which were truths from heaven. I do not want to miss truth by being easily offended by others words.
Quote from: larry2 Today at 10:41:55
There are so many different methodologies in interpretation among true believers, and especially loss of context
Agreed
Quote from: larry2 Today at 10:41:55
I attempt to use scripture, and many times that is not accepted either.
I understand~but we must be careful that we do not reject others use of scriptures that they use while complaining that others are not hearing us. It is not easy, to be honest, and fair, even though most believe they are! Our hearts can easily deceive us.
Quote from: larry2 Today at 10:41:55
To me this has nothing to do with our security in Christ,
Brother, I agree that our knowledge is NOT a test of our sonship, a meek and humble spirit IS. 
Quote from: larry2 Today at 10:41:55
I’ll go no further with you as to its who is right or wrong.
Larry, this has not one thing to do with who's right, who's wrong~but all of us being sound in the truth as much as we can. We here to HELP one another to prove ourselves as faithful workmen's that needeth NOT to be ashamed when ask things concerning our faith.
Quote from: larry2 Today at 10:41:55
I’ll only try to answer questions
Brother do you not desire to give ONLY scriptural answers? Brothers in Christ can help each other do that just that~ even as iron sharpeneth iron.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 13:31:26 by RB »

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #48 on: Fri Apr 06, 2018 - 14:51:32 »
We here to HELP one another to prove ourselves as faithful workmen's that needeth NOT to be ashamed when ask things concerning our faith. Brother do you not desire to give ONLY scriptural answers? Brothers in Christ can help each other do that just that~ even as iron sharpeneth iron.

Hi and thanks brother for your explanation of doctrines. I am firm in faith and belief, use scripture to bring seemingly differences in scripture together by seeking context as to who is being addressed, Who said it, and especially time frames such as dispensations. In other words, I do not attempt to read into commands given to Adam and Eve as for me today, unless used in types.

I’m always glad to learn, and add to the plethora of study I’ve done over the years. I’ve studied doctrines you’ve probably never heard of, and will be bringing them forth, and invite your opposition to them, but out of love for my brethren, and experience, I’ve learned more and more that a person convinced against their will, is of the same opinion still, and will absolutely attempt to never berate someone just to win a point.

God bless you in Jesus’ name.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #49 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 05:31:57 »
There are also the 144,000 standing before the elders and living ones with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. They have to get there somehow.
Larry, I never had a chance to address this point of yours, and I certainly desire to do so. It's our obligation as believers and God's true witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12) since Acts ten until now~to speak forth the word of God, even if our words torment our hearers since it's contrary to their preconceived notions of the truth.

Now the question is who are the 144,000? Are the 144,000 separate from the four and twenty elders, or, are they ONE and the SAME?

Let us answer this question first: "Now the question is who are the 144,000?"It not difficult to see and understand IF we follow CONTEXT as you said here:
Quote from:  larry2 Yesterday at 14:51:32
I am firm in faith and belief, use scripture to bring seemingly differences in scripture together by seeking context as to who is being addressed
Sir, if that's the case with you, then you should have no problem with seeing who John said IS the 144,000~and they are NOT Jehovah Witnesses as they vanily think! And NEITHER are they fleshly seed of Abraham, as many other vainly profess.

Let us allow the CONTEXT tells us...... shall we?
Quote from: John
Revelation 7:1-11~"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"
John TELLS US who the 144,000 ARE~they are the SPIRITUAL TRIBES of Israel known ONLY to God as to what tribe HE HAD placed them in. These 144,000 are from:
Quote
all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues
A NUMBER that NO MAN can number! These 144,000 (which represents a PERFECT number KNOWN only to God, yet as far as man knows, it is
Quote
a great multitude, which no man could number
I asked you: Do they stand IN the New Jerusalem, or are they indeed the NEW Jerusalem? The 144,000 are the New Jerusalem the eternal dwelling place of God~they are the tabernacle of God built without hands.
Quote from: John
Revealtion 21:1-10~And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"[
If you are a slave to context, then here you can SEE that the New holy Jerusalem is no other then the CHURCH in her glorified eternal state~God's tabernacle built NOT by hands but by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ..in other words by the BLOOD of God himself! All that follows in Revelation 21 is ONLY describing the eternal GLORY that this tabernacle shall possess, a glory that far surpasses the heart of man's ability to comprehend. Selah!




« Last Edit: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 05:38:16 by RB »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #50 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 06:02:44 »
I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 are different from the "great multitude".  The 144,000 are designated as tribes of Israel.  Such is never attributed to any other than Israel.  I believe the 144,000 represent the complete number of pre-Christian era saved Hebrews. The great multitude then are the rest of the saved  --  from every nation and tribes and peoples and tongues,

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #51 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 06:56:48 »
I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 are different from the "great multitude".  The 144,000 are designated as tribes of Israel.  Such is never attributed to any other than Israel.  I believe the 144,000 represent the complete number of pre-Christian era saved Hebrews. The great multitude then are the rest of the saved  --  from every nation and tribes and peoples and tongues,
I do understand your concern and the dilemma that causes you to believe as you do. You are also correct in saying:
Quote from: 4WD Today at 06:02:44
The 144,000 are designated as tribes of Israel.  Such is never attributed to any other than Israel.
Yet, the flow of Revelation 7:1-11, cause me to strongly believe that spiritual Israel is under consideration, not Abraham's natural seed. I have no problem with with the Spirit using certain tribes to designate the elect from~it very well could prove that God considers his children from the separate tribes~known only to him.

A couple points to consider: There's ONLY ONE sealing, not two, and after the sealing THEN John said:
Quote
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues
AFTER the sealing of the tribes of Israel~John said:
Quote
I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,
With NO thoughts of Israel after flesh......But~all "nations, and kindreds, and people," and tongues~Which to me intreprets who and where the the Israel of God were coming from, even though called and sealed them as though they were from certain tribes.

Forgive me if I failed to make my point clear to you. RB
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 06:59:44 by RB »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #52 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 07:16:50 »
Yet, the flow of Revelation 7:1-11, cause me to strongly believe that spiritual Israel is under consideration, not Abraham's natural seed.
The saved pre-Christian Hebrews are part of spiritual Israel.


Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #53 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 08:07:14 »

There are also the 144,000 standing before the elders and living ones with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. They have to get there somehow.


Now the question is who are the 144,000? Are the 144,000 separate from the four and twenty elders, or, are they ONE and the SAME?

To remain in context, we must ascertain who John sees presented to him, and at what time. Your question seems to take none of this into consideration. I'll just make a simple observation to me is that the elders are seen with Jesus round about His newly set throne in Rev 4:4 prior to the tribulation, and during the tribulation the 144,000 appear before those same elders in Rev 14:3. 

In your reply you make many statements without scriptural notation, which makes it hard to follow. I use the KJV, and maybe you're using another bible; please tell me which translation you're quoting from. Thanks



"Now the question is who are the 144,000?"

John TELLS US who the 144,000 ARE~they are the SPIRITUAL TRIBES of Israel known ONLY to God as to what tribe HE HAD placed them in. The 144,000 are the New Jerusalem the eternal dwelling place of God~


Scripture please, and does the New Jerusalem exclude the remainder of God’s kingdom?
If you don't mind, I'll continue on this one point of your post until we come to agreement or not, lest the replies expand into several pages for each post.

Offline soterion

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #54 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 10:12:40 »
The number twelve is used symbolically in Revelation, I would think, as an indication of God’s people and things of God. The twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles might come to mind for the readers of Revelation. This number, and any multiples of it, will not be used to represent anything of Satan or the beast.

The list of tribes in Rev 7:4-8 does not match that of the actual tribes we read about in the Old Testament. I think this should help us understand that symbolism is being used to indicate God’s people, not just fleshly Israelites, but simply God’s people. I would think this is all of God’s people facing the great tribulation. In addition, I do not believe only fleshly Israelites are being referred to here because the Spirit is describing events after the end of the Mosaic age, future to this time of writing, and God has already joined both peoples together into one body (Ephesians 2:11-15). I don't see God regarding Israelites and Gentiles, who make up the church, separately in any way in this book.

I believe the only distinction between the 144,000 and the great multitude is this: the 144,000 were sealed before the great tribulation, and the great multitude are coming out of it. The two groups are the same people, which will include those from the seven churches to whom John is writing.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #55 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 11:03:04 »
The saved pre-Christian Hebrews are part of spiritual Israel.
Agreed

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #56 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 12:17:22 »

The list of tribes in Rev 7:4-8 does not match that of the actual tribes we read about in the Old Testament.


I just posted the following thread I wrote some years ago I hope brings understanding to this.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/ephod-the-breastplate-of-judgment/ 


I don't see God regarding Israelites and Gentiles, who make up the church, separately in any way in this book.


Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
This includes all caught up to God, the 24 elders, the four beasts, the great multitude, & the 144,000 in their respective orders.


I believe the only distinction between the 144,000 and the great multitude is this: the 144,000 were sealed before the great tribulation, and the great multitude are coming out of it. The two groups are the same people, which will include those from the seven churches to whom John is writing.


(Act 13:46.)  Israel had judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46).

The righteous Jew is already in paradise in heaven (2 Cor 12:4) representing the Old Testament elect, Jews presently coming to Christ are of the Church, and in the future All Israel shall be saved. (Rom 11:26).





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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #57 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 12:55:19 »
I believe the only distinction between the 144,000 and the great multitude is this: the 144,000 were sealed before the great tribulation, and the great multitude are coming out of it.
Gentile Christians are nowhere in the Bible ever included within the Hebrew tribes.  Also, soterion, I sense that you hold to the pre-tribulation view of the end times.   Am I correct about that?

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #58 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 12:58:32 »
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
This includes all caught up to God, the 24 elders, the four beasts, the great multitude, & the 144,000 in their respective orders.
Galatians is obviously addressing post-Pentecost Christians, not pre-Pentecost Jews.

Offline soterion

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #59 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 15:08:28 »
Gentile Christians are nowhere in the Bible ever included within the Hebrew tribes. 

Okay. Again, I do not read Rev 7:4-8 (or 14:1-5, for that matter) as describing only fleshly Israelites. This is a figure for the church about to endure the tribulation soon to be unleashed on it.

Quote
Also, soterion, I sense that you hold to the pre-tribulation view of the end times.   Am I correct about that?

I am a non-millennialist. I do not believe Revelation is describing end times events. Revelation was fulfilled in the lifetime of at least most of those of the seven churches John had written to (Rev 1:1-3, 22:6, 10).

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #60 on: Sat Apr 07, 2018 - 18:52:24 »
Galatians is obviously addressing post-Pentecost Christians, not pre-Pentecost Jews.

You’re right. Paul is addressing error in their Christian doctrines, and even dispelling some of their previous Jewish doctrines such as law such as noted in Gal 2:16. Grace reigns in deliverance from the world, and Paul says in Gal 2:21,  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
Jesus had caught Paul up to heaven (2 Cor 12:2), and (Gal 1:11-12) revealed the gospel He wanted taught to His Church, and any teaching of the Jews may have been persecution by them, such as we might call trolling today.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #61 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 05:35:51 »
I am a non-millennialist. I do not believe Revelation is describing end times events. Revelation was fulfilled in the lifetime of at least most of those of the seven churches John had written to (Rev 1:1-3, 22:6, 10).
In the Eschatology schools of thoughts that is called Preterism. But most of them believe that Christ IS reigning now in heaven ~so, there's really is no school of thought that reject any type of millennialism~so there is no such professing person who is a non-millennialist.
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 15:08:28
I do not believe Revelation is describing end times events.
It most certainly is~and fits perfectly with Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thess. 2; 1st John 2:18, etc. MOST of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is in the PROCESS of being fulfilled, some yet to be~Most of the first three chapter, yes, but from four on it is still in the progress of being fulfilled, but soon shall be as God judges time~and even as we should understand time in the light as God has taught us to judge time.
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 15:08:28
Revelation was fulfilled in the lifetime of at least most of those of the seven churches John had written to (Rev 1:1-3, 22:6, 10).
These scriptures do not prove your point, especially so 22:6, 10; and as for Revelation 1:1-3 those scriptures should be consider in light of Revelation 22:10..."for the time is at hand INCLUDES Christ's coming and the Great White Throne judgment and the New earth and heaven!

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #62 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 05:56:17 »
Jesus had caught Paul up to heaven (2 Cor 12:2), and (Gal 1:11-12) revealed the gospel He wanted taught to His Church, and any teaching of the Jews may have been persecution by them, such as we might call trolling today.
God took Paul into Arabia and THERE taught him FROM THE SCRIPTURES the truth concerning the gospel.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 1:15-18~"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days."
Paul got taught by the Spirit of God for three years in Arabia (or, it was at least three years after his conversion before he went to Jerusalem, not sure how long he was in Arabia) with no flesh and blood teaching him~at the Unversity of Arabia, only one student being taught by the greatest teacher of all~the Spirit of God. That's special~and Paul made the most of his God-given wisdom and understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the ONLY time Paul ever mentioned his God-given revelation in Arabia, to be used to give LIGHT to us Gentiles~Thank you blessed God for allowing us to be given what was given to Paul the apostle to the Gentiles.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 05:59:50 by RB »

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #63 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 06:12:39 »
In your reply you make many statements without scriptural notation, which makes it hard to follow. I use the KJV, and maybe you're using another bible; please tell me which translation you're quoting from. Thanks
Larry, are you sure you do not have me confused with someone else? I use scriptures to support whatever I say, and I have never used any other translation except the KJV 1611. For nearly 45 years I have ONLY used the KJV 1611~I started in my Chrisitan walk back in 1974 at a young age of 26~before that I was a full-blooded heathen.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #64 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 10:27:38 »
In your reply you make many statements without scriptural notation, which makes it hard to follow.

Larry, are you sure you do not have me confused with someone else? I use scriptures to support whatever I say, and I have never used any other translation except the KJV 1611. For nearly 45 years I have ONLY used the KJV 1611~

I know now - thanks.

I asked you: Do they stand IN the New Jerusalem, or are they indeed the NEW Jerusalem? The 144,000 are the New Jerusalem the eternal dwelling place of God~they are the tabernacle of God built without hands.

On this statement I questioned what scripture you were basing this on.
I was talking about scripture notation such as you used in Rev 21:1-10. I didn’t notice it since it appeared in shaded background like that of quotes you would have used quoting me. I reckon I’m not used to how the quotes are shown yet; I’ll have to look at them closer. Sorry.

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #65 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 10:35:25 »
In the Eschatology schools of thoughts that is called Preterism. But most of them believe that Christ IS reigning now in heaven ~so, there's really is no school of thought that reject any type of millennialism~so there is no such professing person who is a non-millennialist. It most certainly is~and fits perfectly with Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thess. 2; 1st John 2:18, etc. MOST of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is in the PROCESS of being fulfilled, some yet to be~Most of the first three chapter, yes, but from four on it is still in the progress of being fulfilled, but soon shall be as God judges time~and even as we should understand time in the light as God has taught us to judge time.These scriptures do not prove your point, especially so 22:6, 10; and as for Revelation 1:1-3 those scriptures should be consider in light of Revelation 22:10..."for the time is at hand INCLUDES Christ's coming and the Great White Throne judgment and the New earth and heaven!

John wrote to the people of the seven churches. He told them at the beginning and end of the book that the things he is writing about are “at hand” and will “shortly take place.” The Spirit gave this message to those people and expected them to “read” and to “hear” and to “heed the things which are written in it.” I believe that means all of it, not just the first three chapters.

I do not believe Revelation is at all dealing with the end of time, the return of Christ, the final judgment of all, any so called future tribulation, etc. Rather, I believe it is simply dealing with the Roman persecution of the church in the time of Domitian and how God will see the churches through that period. I believe this is what the seven churches were supposed to take from it. I believe Revelation was written after AD 70, sometime in the midst of Vespasian’s reign. The Second Coming of Christ, future resurrection of all, final judgment, etc. are all found in other passages of the Bible, just not in Revelation.

What were the those of the seven churches to think when they heard this message being read? "Oh, this will take place a long time from now. It has nothing to do with us."? On the contrary, I believe the Spirit used the words “at hand” and “shortly take place” in the way those people would have ordinarily understood the terms. He did it so that those churches would have a soon-to-be-fulfilled expectation, and be prepared for the things written in it.

I believe that John was seeing visions and that the various elements in those visions corresponded to more down to earth events in reality; no physical resurrections from physical graves, no physical stars physically falling from the physical sky, etc. With each event or object that is understood to be part of the visions, what it represents should be sought for.

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #66 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 10:55:51 »

I am a non-millennialist. I do not believe Revelation is describing end times events. Revelation was fulfilled in the lifetime of at least most of those of the seven churches John had written to (Rev 1:1-3, 22:6, 10).

The disciples came to Jesus with the following question.
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The following scripture seem to answer the question the disciples asked.
Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

In Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Has Jesus taken that power yet?
If so, why are nations still ruling in usurpation against His all power?

There is so much scripture Jesus has yet to fulfill. Was Jesus proclaimed King of Kings, and Lord of lords when He was with us? Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

When have you seen an army of 200,000,000 led by Satan (Rev 9:11) killing one third of all mankind?  (Rev 9:15-16)

Offline RB

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #67 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 11:45:06 »
The saved pre-Christian Hebrews are part of spiritual Israel.
As I said, I agreed. Let me add more to Revelation seven to help make my point clearer.
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Revelation 7:4~"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
Those who attempt to read Revelation as a literal narrative must say that this means that only literally 144,000 Jews are converted. But this number is used elsewhere, and is understood symbolic in nature. The root numbers of 144,000 are quite obviously the numbers 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the Lord, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem.
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Revelation 21:16~"And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
Moreover, there are peculiarities that should readily alert us to the fact that this 144,000 is not the tribes of earthly Israel. First of all, we will see symbolism all throughout Revelation, and why would God suddenly have this chapter to be curiously understood as a literal narrative, in the midst of all this symbolism? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Consider: those sealed are said to be made up all the tribes of Israel, and yet all the literal tribes of Israel are not listed. This is because this is Spiritual Israel, an Israel in Christ, not the nation in the middle east. When we examine the census carefully, we find there are significant differences from lists in other places in scripture.

Also, the number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.
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Revelation 21:12-17~"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence anymore than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence anymore than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the middle east, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in the Israel which is Christ. Not a worldly Israel, but a heavenly habitation of God. This Israel is also illustrated in Revelation chapter 14.
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Revelation 14:1-5~"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Here God tells us clearly who these 144,000 represent. The body of Christ are those who stand on Mount Zion with this Lamb and all have the Father's name written in their foreheads. All part of a New Covenant with Israel, which is not an earthly nation, but spiritual agreement or promise, which is something far superior. As also seen in Hebrews chapter 12.
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Hebrews 12:22-24~"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
This is the heavenly Jerusalem, the City of God which is 12,000 furlongs and the wall of which is 144,000 cubits. Quite obviously a Spiritual City made up of all those in Christ. Hebrews tells us, "this" is the City which those who are sealed have come unto. "This" is the Mount Sion that the New Covenant signifies, it's not just literally 12,000 each, or 144,000, but an innumerable company of believers. We are the Children of God. Jew, Greek, or Roman, we are all "one" in Christ. He has broken down that middle wall of partition which separated Jew and Gentile, and has reconciled both as one unto God. There is no separate New Covenant with an Israel of Jews and a New Covenant with the Israel of Gentiles, there is only "one" New Covenant, and one mediator, which is Christ! Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 make that abundantly clear if we will receive it. It is the whole congregation of God.

Revelation 14 speaks of this Chosen people, these Children of God, this Israel of God. They alone sing the new song, and none but these can learn it. It is none but the Chosen of God who are the ones Revelation says were redeemed from the earth. By the New Covenant Redeemer, who is Christ!

Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #68 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 12:53:44 »

Revelation 14 speaks of this Chosen people, these Children of God, this Israel of God. They alone sing the new song, and none but these can learn it. It is none but the Chosen of God who are the ones Revelation says were redeemed from the earth. By the New Covenant Redeemer, who is Christ!

They are indeed blessed; Rev 14:4 says: These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. But then we must ask who they were fruistfruits of. Could it possibly be firstfruits in Christ from Israel? You do realize that all Israel will be saved according to Rom 11:26.  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Why weren't they singing the song of Rev Rev 5:9?  Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
Have you also noticed that the 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and are round about Jesus' throne, and then the four beasts (Rev 4:6) are round about, and in the midst of Jesus' throne when His reign begins. These two parts of the Church are also caught up to God prior to the tribulation.

The Great Multitude (Rev 7:14) are caught up out of great tribulation, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand even later than them; They are caught up to the heavenly Jerusalem at the very middle of the seven years of tribulation.

You allude to the one hundred and forty-four thousand as being very special, and indeed they are, but when they get to heaven (Rev 14:3) they sung as it were a new song before the throne (not in the midst of the throne), and before the four beasts, and the elders who were there ahead of them.




Offline larry2

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Re: Rapture, tribulation debate
« Reply #69 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 12:40:16 »
Good Grief! Did I bring up a sore subject as to the 144,000? Let me shock you all more.  ::announcment::

The one hundred and forty-four thousand are the five wise virgins.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight (The darkest time, and Jacob’s trouble is right at the door.) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose , and trimmed their lamps.

 
Notice what is said of them in Rev 14:4.  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Another thing about the wedding is that there are guests too; all are not the bride. Mat 22:10  . . . the wedding was furnished with guests.

 ::eatingpopcorn: